SR system Radio City NYC - Moody Blues

[robertbartsch]

My wife and I have attended many concerts this summer - some in very good forums and others in poor venues.

Radio City NYC was the best indoor venue so far. The open outdoor forum at Bethel NY (Woodstock) was the best overall.

The stacks of flying JBLs inside this small hall in NYC (seating est. about 4K) was more than adequate to blow the roof off. This hall was specifically designed in the early 20th centery to provide excellent accustics.

Unfortunately, the engineers keep the sound pressure level very low - my estimate would be around 85db. They did not crank it once during the three hour show.

See the atttached photo of the flying JBL cabs.

[robertbartsch]

I believe the official seating capacity at Radio City is 5500.

Anyway, I think the bass cabs are the smaller flying cabs are located left and right of the two main stacks.

I assume these cabs belong to the hall and not to the Moodys but I could be wrong.

[Don Mascali]

I assume these cabs belong to the hall and not to the Moodys but I could be wrong.

I guess it would be a PIA to fly those at each venue.

[doodlebug]

I recently saw Lyle Lovett and his Large Band at Mountain Winery in Saratoga (San Jose), CA with JBL arrays in use there.

The sound was excellent, not overbearing and quite clear and comfortable befitting the venue and laid-back evening overlooking Silicon Valley.

The band was ripping, too, with the first number being a Charlie Parker tune taken at bebop tempo. Not bad for a country band with half the players from Nashville.

Cheers,

David

[boputnam]

I assume these cabs belong to the hall and not to the Moodys but I could be wrong.Those Vertec line arrays were spec'd by the Moody Blues - they were flown for that show. There is no full-time installed line arrays at RCMH. Load-in would have started about 6am is my guess, and soundcheck at 3'ish.


Anyway, I think the bass cabs are the smaller flying cabs are located left and right of the two main stacks.The two longest hangs look like 4889's (x 15 ea), with some smaller 4887's (x 2 ea) off the tail as front fills. The subs are the two smaller hangs of 4880's (x 8 ea). Oldmics would know the models better than I do.


Unfortunately, the engineers keep the sound pressure level very low - my estimate would be around 85db. They did not crank it once during the three hour show. I would thank him. You likely had great definition and full sound without needing high SPL. High SPL could have caused real trouble with extra room loading and "painting the walls" with reflected waves. I notice there is almost no backline on stage, and no wedges. I'll bet the stage volume is really low too, so the FOH guy had a great chance to deliver a nice even mix without fighting stage wash. Nice...

Great pic!

[Robh3606]

Just saw Steely Dan at the Beacon. Same thing not that loud bit really good definition and clarity. I will take the SPL vs Clarity trade any day. Line arrays were used there as well. The individual horns and vocals on the back-up singers were all clear and easy to hear and understand.

Rob:)

[robertbartsch]

The main flown JBL line arrays at Radio City look very similar in appearnce and number to those used at the Chicago concert at Bethel NY (Woodstock) which I beleive was the best sound system we heard so far.

The Bethel forum seats 20K and has a roof but no sides where sound can bounce around. The Chicago show had 20 bass cabs on each side of the stage and I assume these were 18" subs. These cabs were square in shape.

The overall SPL during the Chicago show was higher - say 90db and occassionally, the engineers let loose with some big power.

Vocals for the Moodys and Chicago were very good which is a good test overall, I beleive.

[DavidF]

"...Unfortunately, the engineers keep the sound pressure level very low - my estimate would be around 85db. They did not crank it once during the three hour show.

See the atttached photo of the flying JBL cabs.

The last 3 or 4 shows MB shows I have attended were always with VerTec PA support. In a show at the Paramount in Oakland CA a couple of years ago I thought the level was just too loud. We were center, midway back. Not often I actually would prefer less sound pressure but yeah, it was too loud. It was an old theater so likely these old venues are difficult to tame.

[DavidF]

I recently saw Lyle Lovett and his Large Band at Mountain Winery in Saratoga (San Jose), CA with JBL arrays in use there.

The sound was excellent, not overbearing and quite clear and comfortable befitting the venue and laid-back evening overlooking Silicon Valley.

The band was ripping, too, with the first number being a Charlie Parker tune taken at bebop tempo. Not bad for a country band with half the players from Nashville.

Cheers,

David
Whoa, what's a NC boy doing up in the hills of Saratoga? Wife and I always thought this place was special but after spending a couple million to upgrade that hill top is too, too nice. JBL equipment is installed. Sitting in the sixth row for Huey Lewis was a surprise for me though. I thought that the front row seating lacked proper vocal mix. Figured I was below the throw of the flying PA and left with the stage fronts that seemed muted. Stange mix that night. Guitars and bass of the lead in group sounded fine but again the vocals seemed buried. No problems when we were sitting futher back.

[doodlebug]

Whoa, what's a NC boy doing up in the hills of Saratoga?

Used to own a house in Capitola and work in the valley - 20 years with HP and now retired from there. I still go back and house-sit for folks I keep up with.

For Lyle Lovette, I had a good seat up in the middle section above the stage and _very_ inline with the flying arrays but a clear, unobstructed view of the entire stage. Like sitting at home and watching the DVD on a _huge_ monitor.

Plenty of great venues out there......

Cheers,

David

[Regis]

I saw Huey Lewis and the News at the Ventura County fair a couple of weeks ago. Hanging Vertec arrays in an open arena and the sound was excellent! Great detail with nothing lost and nice dynamic range. The bass was excellent and you could feel the drums in your chest, but it never sounded boomy or thudded out. The db's were up enough to rock, but not enough to overwhelm.

Kudos to Bo and his ilk, because whover set it up, did an excellent job (yes, I thought of you Bo and said to myself, it takes a good Engineer to do it well!).

[robertbartsch]

There was a post earlier this year that disussed a sound reinforcement issue that alluded to local SPL ordinances that preclude sound engineers from cranking the system.

I would like to learn more about these laws.

Our society is so regulated these days that this kind of law is totally unnecssary and harmful. If you don't like the big SPL then you are free to leave the hall. In my view, we don't need this government intrusion.

[hjames]

There was a post earlier this year that discussed a sound reinforcement issue that alluded to local SPL ordinances that preclude sound engineers from cranking the system.

I would like to learn more about these laws.

Our society is so regulated these days that this kind of law is totally unnecessary and harmful. If you don't like the big SPL then you are free to leave the hall. In my view, we don't need this government intrusion.

Your comments continue to beg the question: "Are you for real?"

I live near a University - they have concerts and events all the time. many times they don't seem to realize that some of us actually have to get up in the morning and want to be sleeping at 10:30 or 11PM on weeknights ...
If they were in a sealed hall it'd be different, but outdoor concerts DO need to be considerate of the local community.


And yes, my hearing would probably be better if it wasn't for attending the early Jeff Beck and Who concerts back inna day ... they were FREAKIN' LOUD!

And yes, in another thread I did mention going to a Roxy Music concert around '75 and actually staying out of the hall while the warm-up act, Mahogeny Rush, was playing, because they were TOO FREAKING LOUD and were distorting BADLY in the small auditorium.

If the sound is crashing over itself so that the echos reverbrations are killing the clarity,
TURN IT DOWN until the distortions are reduced or go away.

[robertbartsch]

...part of the experience of live music is to FEEL the sound reinforcement system...

Sound engineers who play low SPLs to enhance (insure) the clarity of the music is one thing. Local laws mandating a quiet gig is another IMO.

...So after all those concerts you attended as a young person it is The Who and Jeff Beck that you remember most; right?


Hmmm. I remember Deep Purple, Pink Floyd, Greatful Dead and many others!

[hjames]

nah, I've been to Hundreds of shows - I just mentioned the first 2 that came to mind partly because
I've been watching the Jeff Beck at Ronnie Scott's and The Who at Kilburn '77 DVDs lately ...
and that reminded me of seeing Jeff Beck's BBA tour, and seeing The Who in summer of 1970

Saw the Grateful Dead about 6 times - twice when they had the wall of sound, once indoors, once in a stadium
- it was super clean and no pain both times -

Seen King Crimson a couple times in the 80s - both the Double Trio version and the Double Duo version ...
Weather Report, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Brand X, Tony Williams Lifetime, U.K., Al Dimeola, -
all played fast and loud- and it was clean sound ...
Another loud act was Tangerine Dream - seen them 3 times in their prime -
(the Encore album was from DC show of the American tour of 1976) but they had loud, super clean audio every time ...

There are pros and there are amateurs in the audio biz, hey?

My point was about audio played too loud for the room - once the music distorts badly, its gone

My other point was music played too loud for the nearby community.
If its your neighborhood and you have to get up in the morning,
betcha you think differently. Especially if its not your kind of music?

I'm not saying don't play loud - I'm saying don't play loud after - say -
10PM on a weeknight. Play indoors or start the show earlier ...



...part of the experience of live music is to FEEL the sound reinforcement system...

Sound engineers who play low SPLs to enhance (insure) the clarity of the music is one thing. Local laws mandating a quiet gig is another IMO.

...So after all those concerts you attended as a young person it is The Who and Jeff Beck that you remember most; right?
Hmmm. I remember Deep Purple, Pink Floyd, Greatful Dead and many others!

But you don't remember how to spell their name right?
Well, you couldn't have been THAT impressed, hey? Its the Grateful Dead ...

[Robh3606]

There was a post earlier this year that discussed a sound reinforcement issue that alluded to local SPL ordinances that preclude sound engineers from cranking the system.


With good reason. I don't know how old you are but I am in my 50's and used to carry an SPL meter with me to shows. Did it a couple of times. It was an old analog type that a top range of 110db with a +6 to top the scale off. Went to one show. When the band started up it pegged the meter at 116DB and it never came down. It was so frickin loud it was almost painful. We got the hell out of there as it was no fun at all. That's not loud that's downright abuse.

http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_club_sound_primer/

Have a read it touches on this issue.


Rob:)

[robertbartsch]

I never liked the "Dead," never bought any of their recordings but did attend 6 of their shows (some outside, others inside) about 35 years ago. Friends keep giving me tickets!

My recollection was that their sound was BIG!

[Fred Sanford]

There was a post earlier this year that disussed a sound reinforcement issue that alluded to local SPL ordinances that preclude sound engineers from cranking the system.

I would like to learn more about these laws.

Our society is so regulated these days that this kind of law is totally unnecssary and harmful. If you don't like the big SPL then you are free to leave the hall. In my view, we don't need this government intrusion.

You're forgetting the liabilities of the venue- causing damage to people's hearing is injuring them. They could potentially face lawsuits. A number of Manhattan clubs I ran sound in had SPL limits they'd enforce (or not, depending on the night). Some had an SPL meter on the wall, it looked like an LED digital clock.

je

[robertbartsch]

I love NHRA Drag racing. The fuel cars burn Nitro, have +6,000 HP and cover the 1/4 mile in 4.5 seconds.

My friend went to his first event with me a few years ago. I told him he needed ear protection but he did not listen.

Anyway, I assume the SPL at these events is at least 125db - EVERYONE wears ear protection.

I don't see these venues being sued for recking people's ears so why can't the defense attorneys working for the halls having sound reinforcement fend off these frivolous lawsuits?

[hjames]

So how many of these hearing-loss lawsuits do ya think there are pilgrim?
Yeah, you're not for real, are ya?

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=41437&stc=1&d=1251297412


Anyway, I assume the SPL at these events is at least 125db - EVERYONE wears ear protection.

I don't see these venues being sued for recking people's ears so why can't the defense attorneys working for the halls having sound reinforcement fend off these frivolous lawsuits?