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View Full Version : Have you refurbed x-overs in your Model 19s?



George Roland
08-17-2009, 06:02 PM
I have a pair of Altec Lansing Model 19s that I have been enjoying for about six months now.

I have been wondering whether or not to have my crossovers refurbished. I would be interested in experiences of other Model 19 owners with respect to the following:
What technicians would you recommend for this work?
How much might it cost to have this done?
What are the audible benefits of a crossover refurbishment?

Many thanks,

George Roland

rgwalker
08-17-2009, 09:05 PM
I have a pair of Altec Lansing Model 19s that I have been enjoying for about six months now.

I have been wondering whether or not to have my crossovers refurbished. I would be interested in experiences of other Model 19 owners with respect to the following:
What technicians would you recommend for this work?
How much might it cost to have this done?
What are the audible benefits of a crossover refurbishment?

Many thanks,

George Roland

George: I used Model 19 crossovers for another 8 ohm project and added a tweeter crossover point but otherwise the caps and coils were upgraded using the original values.

The caps in mine are Solens Fast Caps and the coils are 10 AWG and 12 AWG North Creek Air Coils. These coils might be a little extreme for the Model 19s but whatever you get will be larger than the originals and can be pre-mounted inside the cabinet and attached with connectors.

I'm no tech and I barely understand what I'm doing but I'm good with a soldering iron and I have a musicians ear. I was coached by a friend who suggested the parts, supplied clear diagrams (from this site) and helped me with my parts list. I did it one piece at a time and it took me about 30 minutes to change over both crossovers.

The sound is stunning and I think that it will have a similar effect on a Model 19. The capacitors cost about $50.00 from Parts Express including the ones for the tweeters. The coils were $370.00 but I've seen others that look good for much cheaper. There have been a few good examples of other Model 19 mods displayed here.

Bob Walker

George Roland
08-17-2009, 09:21 PM
Thanks, Bob. I can wield a soldering iron myself, but have no clue what I'm connecting or why. I have built several kit electronics (tuner, power amp, etc.) but don't know from crossovers.

When you did the mod you described, you were both upgrading your crossovers for a Model 19 and adding a tweeter? Can you describe the difference the update made in the midrange?

Many thanks,

George

robertbartsch
08-18-2009, 09:39 AM
...well I did add a pair of JBL 077 slot tweeters to a pair of Altec VOTT around 30 years ago and it worked great. Crossover was 8K as I remember. ...anyway, the Altec HF compression drivers/horns tend to roll off a lot so this was a great modification. This did not impact anything below the cross over point.

Zilch
08-18-2009, 12:43 PM
...well I did add a pair of JBL 077 slot tweeters to a pair of Altec VOTT around 30 years ago and it worked great. Crossover was 8K as I remember. ...anyway, the Altec HF compression drivers/horns tend to roll off a lot so this was a great modification. This did not impact anything below the cross over point.Model 19 addressed those issues with different drivers and HF comp in the crossover.

Post in a VOTT thread, maybe....

rgwalker
08-18-2009, 07:22 PM
Thanks, Bob. I can wield a soldering iron myself, but have no clue what I'm connecting or why. I have built several kit electronics (tuner, power amp, etc.) but don't know from crossovers.

When you did the mod you described, you were both upgrading your crossovers for a Model 19 and adding a tweeter? Can you describe the difference the update made in the midrange?

Many thanks,

George

George: It's the midrange that excels on my system. This is very general and non technical but the midrange is open and very musical. There is no 'honk' anywhere and the instruments sound lifelike. I can listen for hours at high volume with no fatigue and it's crystal clear and full at 2:00 AM with the volume way down.

I have 288 drivers but they're just the big brother of the 806 and should sound similar.

AltecLansingFan is the one who turned me on to it and has almost the identical system as I do. He is much more technically minded than me and can explain it better.

Bob W

TnTn
08-21-2009, 02:24 PM
George, there is a thread on AK about this subject:

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=243462&highlight=model+19

For sure you will hear more clarity on the upper end as well as lower end if you change out the inductors. My problem is that when I changed the inductors on mine, I lost some of the warm lower mid/upper bass. Clarity is noticeably better though. Someone attributed this loss to the increased in DC resistances of the air core inductors. You could try to just change out the caps first and see how you like it. This change is relatively easy to do if you can handle a soldering iron.

I might also be tempted to look up Zilch's Model 19 crossover upgrade and build that version.

Zilch
08-21-2009, 03:02 PM
I might also be tempted to look up Zilch's Model 19 crossover upgrade and build that version.DC's the first DIYer I'm aware of that's actually running N19Z in Model 19, though Skywave and maybe some others have built them.

I was amazed to see that he got them on the original crossover frames, the proverbial 5-pound bag.... :p

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2964865#post2964865

rgwalker
08-21-2009, 08:14 PM
For sure you will hear more clarity on the upper end as well as lower end if you change out the inductors. My problem is that when I changed the inductors on mine, I lost some of the warm lower mid/upper bass. Clarity is noticeably better though. Someone attributed this loss to the increased in DC resistances of the air core inductors.

I left the original #1 coil alone and only changed the #2 and #3 coils for the mids and highs. The bottom end on my system is tight, punchy and very warm. In fact bass guitar, upright bass and organ pedals are the closest thing to real that I've heard recorded.

Bob W

TnTn
08-22-2009, 12:23 AM
Zilch, I have been following DC's thread and I'll need to look up your work on this crossover. Unlike DC, I am a slow mover.

Bob, thanks for the insight. It does make sense to keep that inductor. I'll try that next time I rotate my speakers.

Zilch
08-22-2009, 01:04 AM
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=197971#post197971

dc270
08-24-2009, 09:10 AM
Hello All-

I just wanted to offer my thoughts on the xover I built from the "Zilch Mid" schematic. First off, thanks to Zilch for his great work and design here. If there were other "pioneers" I thank you as well. :applaud:

Yes I did get everything on the original xover plate. I was a "creative squeeze" but I got 'er done, FWIW dept. I purchased everything to very near spec from here:

http://www.erseaudio.com/Products/PulseX250v

The Erse iron dore and air core EQ/XO inductors were used as was their Poly yellow Erse type caps.:deal:

They are fine folks, they shipped fast, & I was most pleased with them. I normally purchase a bit cheaper through Parts Express but they did not have the spec inductors I needed and a couple of other things. What ever works for you is fine. I wanted to build a true to spec network so I was quite finicky to Zilch's specs, particularly on the inductor insertion losses.:hyp:

The only component 'stacking" I had to do was a couple of the resistors "Goop" glued on top of the iron core inductors plastic end oieces. Any bare wires, or bare component tails, had shrink tube put over them to prevent shorting, so add small shrink tube to your list as well. Everything was "Goop" glued into place except the one tie strapped upright inductor, the iron core inductor was tap screw mountedm as was the terminal strip. I opted for new 100 watt L-Pads to eliminate any possible future problems. Be sure to De-Oxit your L-Pads. :D

I used the original internal speaker wire I pulled from 19's to wire up and jumper the networks. The internal driver wire was replaced with stranded OFC 12ga for best conductivity. ;)

My thoughts now. I thnink~ know~ the overall sound has improved. A simple A/B between the old and the new networks prove that out already, even before a good break in. What am I hearing? I am hearing a "crispness" and an extention in detail from the 811 horn in particular. I must admit {Sidebar your honor}I honestly cannot justify or truly hear the differance in "boutique" caps and what I used fit my budget and function just fine. Female vocals like Emmy Lou Harris and Diana Crawl vocal took on a very nice timbre and depth. Bass guitar seemed to have better snap to it and not quite as soft sounding. I liked the way triangles sparkled as well, they had a very clean ring and "tinkle" aspect to them. I played pink noise as well and did find a cleaner tone emitted from the new network. I tried everything at varying volume settings with predictable results. Finally I finished both networks and installed them. The results were a audible leap & improvement from the originals~ more than worth the mere $120 investment in components used! :band:

My electronics are Nakamichi PA-7, CA-7a, Oppo DVD, ST-7. I recently rebuilt my Altec Model 19's and included replacing the internal original 1.5" fiberglass batting with 1.5" bumpy foam on four walls and also glued 1.5" pillow foam all around the outside of the 811 horn bodies to prevent "ring thru". I have yet to get the drivers remagnetized or rebuilt. That is a $300 expence for another day. :yes:

I appologise got my lack of proper measuring equipment. I have used my ears for over 37 years in my hobby and have been satisfied and rewarded adequately by them. Besides- fine people like Zilch actually do all the hard realistic work of measurements, I am happy being the parasite of his progress so long as he would wish to post! it! :cheers:

My recommendation is to spend the $120+ on components and rebuild your passive metworks. The improved soinic gains and reliability will make the expense more than justified! I would much rather spend my money here than even upgrading the diaphragms! Please feel free to contact me with any questions.:applaud:
[email protected]
DC