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Wagner
08-06-2009, 03:25 PM
I am making a return, back to Solid State. Please give me some ideas as to what model Crowns are good for home use (2-channel) that are currently available new. Or, are there other good quality amps out there (honest stuff, no boutique).
I love my vintage stuff (electronics) but want something new (and with some balls) to run these new L112s and my other JBLs.
Thanks,
Thomas

midlife
08-06-2009, 03:40 PM
I can't help with recommending any new Crown equipment as I don't have experience with them. I certainly can recommend DC 300s, used one to power my Summits, when I still had them, I thought it worked very well.

grumpy
08-06-2009, 03:51 PM
fan(s) acceptable? must be new? budget?

Crown MA-2402 would fit the bill. So would many lesser ($) units.

Wagner
08-06-2009, 04:16 PM
fan(s) acceptable? must be new? budget?

Crown MA-2402 would fit the bill. So would many lesser ($) units.

Fans are fine (and my friends) when indicated! ;)

I was thinking "pro" stuff as the value for the dollar generally tends to be more real.

I know little of Crown stuff other than they are an iconic older company. I will look at your suggestion, thank you.

Do they make anything worth considering for a Grand or less? I, for the time being, I will be using primarily "off the rack" systems like the L112 for example. I want, and need ample power to get nice results, but my listening room will probably never be bigger than a traditional domestic dining or living room. Think the size of a public school classroom at best.
Thank you again,
Thomas

jonfu@ymail.com
08-06-2009, 04:51 PM
I've been using my Crown XTi 1000 as a subwoofer amp, and its sounds great. Barely gets hot to the touch, and I haven't heard the fans kick on. The built in DSP is a great feature as well, if you're looking for that type of feature.

BMWCCA
08-06-2009, 05:34 PM
You can generally find a good-condition PS-400 for $200 and up. I've paid as little as $100 on Epay and it's a fine amp. $200 is still a good deal and more isn't unusual for a nice one. I've seen some bring $600 and even more in its consumer version, the PowerLine series. for whatever reason. It's the modern re-make of the DC300A-II with some additional features like turn-on delay and signal LEDs. One tough amp and I like the sound in my system. If you have any problem with an older Crown, they are still worked on through a legacy arm of Crown listed on their website. :thmbsup:

JeffW
08-06-2009, 05:51 PM
There's a guy with (15) PS-400s on Ebay, but they seem to be bringing more than $200 these days.

BMWCCA
08-06-2009, 07:23 PM
There's a guy with (15) PS-400s on Ebay, but they seem to be bringing more than $200 these days.I guess I've promoted them too much? :)

The last three I followed on Epay went for $285, $250, and $223. The PS-200 often goes for more. :dont-know

Here's the last one sold on Ebay ($200): http://ebayitem.com/110416403427

Triumph Don
08-06-2009, 07:28 PM
He's lucky he got $200 after stating they had been damaged from a lightning strike! Lots of future problems could very well show up.

Steve Mac
08-06-2009, 07:33 PM
I am making a return, back to Solid State. Please give me some ideas as to what model Crowns are good for home use (2-channel) that are currently available new. Or, are there other good quality amps out there (honest stuff, no boutique).
I love my vintage stuff (electronics) but want something new (and with some balls) to run these new L112s and my other JBLs.
Thanks,
Thomas
www.odysseyaudio.com
I own 5 of the stratos series amps and they are killer.
I woudn't call them boutique but they are not cheap.
But one listen and a look under the hood and you'll understand.
here's a link to the application they are being used in my system:
http://www.superbadcat.com/images/stereo/511e_18.jpg
first 30-35 watts are class A then it kicks into a/b
I've owned a few crown amps...the hi end ones were good...
but these amps have both balls and finesse.
...made in Indianapolis...not China

BMWCCA
08-06-2009, 07:34 PM
He's lucky he got $200 after stating they had been damaged from a lightning strike! Lots of future problems could very well show up.Forgot about that one. Probably why it wasn't on my watch list. He used the exact same language in describing his PS-200, too, as I recall. :banghead:

JeffW
08-06-2009, 08:09 PM
I guess I've promoted them too much? :)



I don't follow them too closely, I bought a really nice one here for $325 a while back. Seems like every time I do a search, they are in the $400 range and I just skip them. Last one I saw was about that and it had the wrong knobs.

I just bought This PS-200 (http://cgi.ebay.com:80/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260458118533&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBSA:US:1123) after reading this thread and thinking I'd like another PS-200 :)

Old curmudgeon
08-06-2009, 09:24 PM
Power Line Fours usually go for a little more than PS-400s probably due to the fact that they are somewhat rarer. Not necessarily any better, but they do have the additional indicators on the front panel.

I'm with the general consensus here, hard to beat a PS-400 or even a DC300A Series II for the money!

BMWCCA
08-06-2009, 10:16 PM
Power Line Fours usually go for a little more than PS-400s probably due to the fact that they are somewhat rarer. Not necessarily any better, but they do have the additional indicators on the front panel.Rare but consumer oriented. Other than some extra LEDs, they're actually lacking in features compared to the PS amps: No grounded power cords, no 1/4" jacks, and no PS-MOD adapter connection. Same basic guts though. I'll take the PS amps! ;)

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c378/BMWCCA1/DSC_0231_1.jpg

Mr. Widget
08-06-2009, 11:36 PM
I am making a return, back to Solid State. Please give me some ideas as to what model Crowns are good for home use (2-channel) that are currently available new.I don't think Crown is building anything these days that is really suitable for home use. Most of their new amps are simply PA or Commercial use powerhouses. The days of their studio amps and moderately powered "high fidelity" amps seem to be over.


Or, are there other good quality amps out there (honest stuff, no boutique).Define boutique. ;)

Personally I like Bryston. They back their amps with a 20 year warranty and offer excellent customer service. While their faceplates have gotten a bit frillier, they aren't spending gobs of money on CNC'd 2" thick billet aluminum like some of those boutique brands. :D

If you are willing to go with a second hand amp, some of the older Crowns are quite good and very reasonable, though to guarantee top performance you will want it gone over by a tech.


Widget

Chas
08-07-2009, 05:31 AM
Personally I like Bryston. They back their amps with a 20 year warranty and offer excellent customer service. While their faceplates have gotten a bit frillier, they aren't spending gobs of money on CNC'd 2" thick billet aluminum like some of those boutique brands. :D
Widget

I can vouch for the new "squared" series too. Since hooking them into my system, I haven't felt any need to go back to tubes. :)

4313B
08-07-2009, 06:03 AM
I don't think Crown is building anything these days that is really suitable for home use.Dude! I'm quite sure they never did. :duck:


Yeah, yeah, I realize that some people out there equate Crown and Cabaret as the go-to rig for their man cave. :rotfl:

BMWCCA
08-07-2009, 06:19 AM
If you're going new with enough of a budget, you might want to consider Perreaux amp which have a good following here. I believe Opimax is happy with his and Ian's a fan, of course. Good luck finding a dealer in the USA as every link I tried showed that outlet no longer carrying that brand. They do offer several different product ranges, from what they call "entry level" to TOTL stuff.

I believe everyone at the last Mid-Atlantic social fest was impressed by Mark's system.

BMWCCA
08-07-2009, 06:40 AM
Dude! I'm quite sure they never did. :duck:
Granted it may never have been Crown's intent to produce amplifiers for home use, at least until the PowerLine series, but in the late '60s and early '70s the best hi-fi shops where I grew up offered Crown products alongside JBL, Marantz, McIntosh, and the rest. Hi-Fi Showroom in St. Louis offered the Crown D-series to me as a replacement for my Mac and Fisher tube amps when I wanted to go solid-state. At their suggestion I took home one each D75, D150, and DC300A to compare to my Fisher SA1000/Mac system. I ended up buying a D150 and still have it in daily use today.

I'm not saying that my use of Crowns in the home validates their applicability in that type of use. But they were carried as a home-hi-fi amplifier by reputable hi-fi dealers back when you could trust such opinions and there weren't tons of choices for high-power amps. A review of nearly any audio magazine from that era (Audio, Stereo Review) appears to confirm that Crown hit the audiophile market on-target, and was for years the standard for just such applications where high power and low distortion were the goals. Sure electronics have come a long way in the last 40 years, but no one has ever complained about any of my Crown systems not sounding musical, regardless of volume level. :D

4313B
08-07-2009, 06:45 AM
Granted it may never have been Crown's intent to produce amplifiers for home use, at least until the PowerLine series, but in the late '60s and early '70s the best hi-fi shops where I grew up offered Crown products alongside JBL, Marantz, McIntosh, and the rest. Hi-Fi Showroom in St. Louis offered the Crown D-series to me as a replacement for my Mac and Fisher tube amps when I wanted to go solid-state. At their suggestion I took home one each D75, D150, and DC300A to compare to my Fisher SA1000/Mac system. I ended up buying a D150 and still have it in daily use today.

I'm not saying that my use of Crowns in the home validates their applicability in that type of use. But they were carried as a home-hi-fi amplifier by reputable hi-fi dealers back when you could trust such opinions and there weren't tons of choices for high-power amps. A review of nearly any audio magazine from that era (Audio, Stereo Review) appears to confirm that Crown hit the audiophile market on-target, and was for years the standard for just such applications where high power and low distortion were the goals. Sure electronics have come a long way in the last 40 years, but no one has ever complained about any of my Crown systems not sounding musical, regardless of volume level. :DI'm thoroughly aware of where Crown has always stood in the scheme of things. It was my business to know. ;) It was a great American company. We used to use Crown exclusively with the entire JBL Professional 43xx Studio Monitor line.

BMWCCA
08-07-2009, 08:03 AM
I'm thoroughly aware of where Crown has always stood in the scheme of things. It was my business to know. ;) It was a great American company. We used to use Crown exclusively with the entire JBL Professional 43xx Studio Monitor line.Of course, and I never intended to challenge your credentials! I always appreciate your sense of humor and tongue-in-cheek delivery. It must have been the one-line delivery that caused me to interpret the original remark as deprecating the suitability of Crowns for "domesticated" use. Perhaps it was instead backhanded praise?

I'll have to adjust my Internet clairvoyance filters . . . again. :)

stevem
08-07-2009, 08:16 AM
I don't think Crown is building anything these days that is really suitable for home use. Most of their new amps are simply PA or Commercial use powerhouses. The days of their studio amps and moderately powered "high fidelity" amps seem to be over.

Define boutique. ;)

Personally I like Bryston. They back their amps with a 20 year warranty and offer excellent customer service. While their faceplates have gotten a bit frillier, they aren't spending gobs of money on CNC'd 2" thick billet aluminum like some of those boutique brands. :D

If you are willing to go with a second hand amp, some of the older Crowns are quite good and very reasonable, though to guarantee top performance you will want it gone over by a tech.


Widget

+1 on Bryston. I've been using their stuff for years. Well built without overkill.

I had a Crown Reference One amp on demo once, and it sounded murky compared to the Brystons. I think maybe Crown overdid the protection circuitry, which may have affected sound quality.

scott fitlin
08-08-2009, 06:08 PM
Yes, Widget makes a point, NEW CROWNS are admittedly pro amps. But older DC, PS and power line series make great sounding home amps.

However, the NEW XTI, iTech, and Macro Tech i Series make outstanding subwoofer amps, IF you can afford them, and IF your subs can handle the power. Although, the iTech and Macro tech i amps can be dialed in to whatever power levels via avg and peak power limiters, but the bass they make is PHENOMENAL.

I mean years ago, a Crown DC-300A was a pro amp, but worked really well for consumer hi fi!

Jus my opinion.

Old curmudgeon
08-09-2009, 03:01 PM
Since BMWCCA was so kind as to post a picture of a PS-400, I thought that I would post a picture of a Power Line Four for the benefit of those who have never seen one.

The detail picture shows the "Frequency Analyzing Display".

The Power Line Series were definitely targeted to the consumer market! The other units in the "Power Line" series were the Power Line Two and the Power Line Three.

The Power Line Two was rated at 50 watts RMS per channel both channels driven from 20hz-20khz and a THD of .05% with an 8 ohm load, 60 watts at 4.

The Power Line Three was rated at 90 watts under the same conditions at 8 ohms, 140 watts into 4 ohms.

The Power Line Four was rated at 165 watts RMS per channel at 8 ohms and 265 watts per channel at 4 ohms.

These units were available in silver or black, and the combination of a Straight Line Two preamplifier, a FM Two tuner and a Power Line Two mounted in a 3-space walnut Crown cabinet made for an exceptionally nice "receiver" with 50 wpch and extremely good specifications!

jbl_daddy
08-09-2009, 06:55 PM
CROWN ALL THE WAY

I have 13 or 14 crown amps ranging from PS-200's to K2's they all rock. One of my favorits is the DC300 II's I know there is at least four of those in my basement.

:)

BJL
08-13-2009, 03:03 PM
There's a "power line 3" on eBay with two pair of speaker posts and A/B switch on front next to the power button.
Anybody know if its big brother "4" was ever available in that configuration?
(Not that I'd pay the premium for such a rare bird, but I'm curious if it exists.)

scott fitlin
08-13-2009, 04:12 PM
There's a "power line 3" on eBay with two pair of speaker posts and A/B switch on front next to the power button.
Anybody know if its big brother "4" was ever available in that configuration?
(Not that I'd pay the premium for such a rare bird, but I'm curious if it exists.)I have 2 Powerline 4 amps with the brushed aluminum face, it doesn't have the A/B selector switch as the Powerline 3 does.

However, us Dinosaurs from the from the ancient times of DC300, of the 1970,s prehistoric eras didnt need it, because we had Crown OC-150 VU Meter units that could have multiple speakers connected to it and this had selector switches.

boputnam
08-13-2009, 04:20 PM
Personally I like Bryston. +1, again...


Dude! I'm quite sure they never did. :duck:+1


I'll have to adjust my Internet clairvoyance filters . . . again. :)+1, ;) :rotfl:


I love my vintage stuff (electronics) but want something new (and with some balls) to run these new L112s and my other JBLs.Thomas, give some more details?
- Are you wanting rack mounted, or not important?
- As someone asked above, are "fans" OK?
- How many watts?

We just did a show using racks of the the new Crown I-Tech HD (http://www.itechhd.com/). They have far too much power for home use (even for the average public classroom size :p), but they sure did a fine job. All sorts of ethernet connectivity and programmable DSP. Crown are working hard to stay well in the game.

scott fitlin
08-13-2009, 04:54 PM
Bo, how are you, hows your summer?

How do you like the I Tech HD,s? I love the Macro Tech i on subwoofer duty.

I even tried the i series 5000 on my 15,s, and IT SOUNDED VERY GOOD! That will be next summers addition, Macro Tech i series for the 15,s in my system.

And, operating up to 14 hours a day on weekends, and working fairly hard, the i series are totally reliable in my place. I use 5 Crown Macro Tech 9000i amps for subs, my god, the power, and you never have to really push the system, BUT WHEN I DO.............:shock:

I do totally agree with Bo about some of todays amps being capable of far greater power levels then could ever really be used comfortably in home use. Although, I could see some very extravagant home theater rigs with subs that reach VERY deep, but need power, to cleanly reproduce movie sound effects with complete control and authority.

BJL
08-28-2009, 12:45 AM
There's a guy with (15) PS-400s on Ebay, but they seem to be bringing more than $200 these days.

(s)he's lowered the price $199obo
I bought one to try with L96, LE10H Econo-Waveguide etc.
[been using 50W Pioneer receiver]

BMWCCA
08-28-2009, 04:53 AM
Their counter-offer to me just today was $179 and I countered that (their shipping charge is quite high). We'll see. Apparently ten left still. If you want top dollar for anything on Ebay you don't flood the market with fifteen at one time and certainly not in the same auction.

Doc Mark
08-28-2009, 06:00 PM
Greetings, All,

What does the PS-4 offer that the DC300A does not? Since I have two DC300A amps and one old DC300, do I "need" to think about a PS-4? I need to be careful on my spending right now, as we are waiting for a couple of bids for work that needs to be done on our place, and $$ are at a premium. I have a little discretionary money, but I've also been thinking about purchasing a nice 2245H, and can't really buy the amp AND another Crown. Thoughts, please? Thanks, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

scott fitlin
08-29-2009, 07:25 PM
Greetings, All,

What does the PS-4 offer that the DC300A does not? Since I have two DC300A amps and one old DC300, do I "need" to think about a PS-4? I need to be careful on my spending right now, as we are waiting for a couple of bids for work that needs to be done on our place, and $$ are at a premium. I have a little discretionary money, but I've also been thinking about purchasing a nice 2245H, and can't really buy the amp AND another Crown. Thoughts, please? Thanks, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
DocThe Crown PS-4 offers a bit of newer circuitry then the original D series offered, something called Multi Mode. All the Power line and PS series have it, the amps pre driver stage operates in Class A for the first few watts, and has a sweet sounding midrange and more open and airy top end. havin g used D-75,s and the POWER LINE TWO, ESSENTIALLY THE SAME POWER FROM BOTH AMPS, I KNOW FIRST hand the power line 2 highs just sounded better to me.

I have 2 Power line 4,s, and also a Power line Three, and 5 Crown Power Line 2 amplifiers. In the midrange and hi frequency he DC-300 is said to get a bit grainy, but you won't hear this from a Power Line Four, which is essentially an enhanced DC-300A! At least in my opinion.

Another thing, the powe line and PS amps have the current output devices of their time, said to be better than what they used in the D series, and what was available then, when the D series was designed.

BMWCCA
02-26-2012, 03:42 PM
The Crown PS-4 offers a bit of newer circuitry then the original D series offered, something called Multi Mode. All the Power line and PS series have it, the amps pre driver stage operates in Class A for the first few watts, and has a sweet sounding midrange and more open and airy top end. havin g used D-75,s and the POWER LINE TWO, ESSENTIALLY THE SAME POWER FROM BOTH AMPS, I KNOW FIRST hand the power line 2 highs just sounded better to me.

I was looking for detail photos of the PowerLine Four and stumbled upon this old thread. I just recently swapped out my DC300A-II and D150A-II for a PS-400 and PS-200 in my bi-amped 4345 system and immediately noticed an improvement in the higher frequencies to the point I turned the L-pads back to flat. I'd love to be able to tell Scotty that his advice was right on the money, once again. Too bad. But I'll crank them up tonight in his memory!
:cheers:

I made the swap for the turn-on delay feature but now appreciate the sonic differences as well. The PS series has always been running under the radar. Paired with the equally-appreciated L7 speakers, they make a fantastic $400 system!

Doc Mark
03-24-2012, 05:25 PM
Hey, BMWCC,

You are truly a classy Gentleman, Sir! Your thoughtful comments regarding Scotty's recommendations, and his untimely passing, are so nicely phrased, that I had to post a note of thanks for your kindness in doing so.

In reading this informative thread, I have to admit that I've not made any chances in my own amp situation, to date, though I originally had plans of doing so. I've "made do" with my Harman/Kardon 870, and Crown DC300A amplifiers, and am still well satisfied with them. But, in revisiting this thread, I am reminded that some experimentation on the amplifier front is still on my plate of things to do. I'll have to look around and see what's available now, that I can afford to purchase. Thanks, once again, for resurrecting this old information, and for your thoughtful comments regarding Scotty. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

BMWCCA
03-24-2012, 07:39 PM
Thanks, once again, for resurrecting this old information, and for your thoughtful comments regarding Scotty.

Scotty and I exchanged many private messages and I promised to get together with him at Coney Island when visiting my two college-grad daughters living in NYC. But we never got the chance to connect in person and I very much regret it. I wanted my kids to have a chance to ride the Scooter Cars and I really wanted to hear the music at Scotty's Eldorado. Like so many here, Scotty really knew his stuff and gladly shared his knowledge with others. It is my pleasure to perpetuate his memory in this small way.
:thmbsup:

Jonas_h
07-31-2013, 08:49 AM
Very interesting topic. Have you guys ever tried the Crown CTs600/1200 amps? They are class a/B and does not seem to have been designed as 'power house' amps.

big2bird
08-06-2013, 07:45 PM
Very interesting topic. Have you guys ever tried the Crown CTs600/1200 amps? They are class a/B and does not seem to have been designed as 'power house' amps.
I too would like to know. I am about to send in 2 DC-300A's for a factory refresh, and wonder what they have new that could compare.
I plan to bi amp my old A/L 846B's.
I still even have my old IC-150, DC-150A,DC-300A,EQ-2,VFX2A, and an FM-2.
Did I say I still like Crown? LOL

robertbartsch
11-10-2013, 06:33 AM
I have a new Crown 802XLS. It is a great amp for little money but it is not suitible IMO for home use. It is a pro amp for sound reinforcement. They don;t make consumer amps.

Anyway, the cooling fans on the 802 amps are VERY loud.

Jonas_h
02-01-2015, 07:26 PM
An update to this thread which is I think is interesting. JBL Synthesis has introduced the Crown DCi Network amps as their new Synthesis amps. Have any of you guys heard them? BLU-link from BSS/SDEC makes me very interested in them.

And a curious question to those who say that newer Crown amps are only for PA: What makes the older amps more suited for home use than the newer ones in regards to sound quality? Are the older ones more smooth and refined sounding compared to the new ones?

BMWCCA
02-01-2015, 08:02 PM
And a curious question to those who say that newer Crown amps are only for PA: What makes the older amps more suited for home use than the newer ones in regards to sound quality? Are the older ones more smooth and refined sounding compared to the new ones?

I think it is Crown which identifies some of its products as most suitable for PA use. Certainly some are better than others for different tasks. I'm not going to take the time to look up which is which. I recommend you check out the Crown website for their assessment of their own products. Here's a clue: Price is an indication of value.

Mctwins
02-01-2015, 10:50 PM
Hallo!

I am using a Crown DCi 2/600N with my JBL 4429. Sounds Great!!:applaud:

Crown amps can be use in homes as well.

baldrick
02-02-2015, 01:25 AM
As far as I've understood Crown DCI With the DSP/Network module is comparable to iTech but With less Power, the DSP is the same.

iTech 5000 is used With the M2 speakers so my Guess is that a Crown DCi 4/600N would be a great "budget" alternative for those who think 4x600 watt is enough :)

Mctwins
02-04-2015, 12:37 AM
Hallo!

For the M2, one can use the DCi 4/1250N, but I would go for either two I-tech HD or one I-tech 4x3500HD.

600Watts is little bit to low power for the M2, my opinion.

Jonas_h
02-04-2015, 01:11 AM
Hallo!

For the M2, one can use the DCi 4/1250N, but I would go for either two I-tech HD or one I-tech 4x3500HD.

600Watts is little bit to low power for the M2, my opinion.

With 3db amp. headroom, 105db (continous) and 4m from the speakers. Without any room gain included in the calculation: 637w required (if I remember correctly that sensitivity of M2 is 92db).

Source: http://www.crownaudio.com/elect-pwr-req.htm

I think the DCi 4|600N would work fine for normal situations.

Mctwins
02-04-2015, 01:53 AM
With 3db amp. headroom, 105db (continous) and 4m from the speakers. Without any room gain included in the calculation: 637w required (if I remember correctly that sensitivity of M2 is 92db).

Source: http://www.crownaudio.com/elect-pwr-req.htm

I think the DCi 4|600N would work fine for normal situations.

Yes, I understand the link you provided, but, don't understand about "normal situation". It dosen't take into account for the room acoustics.

You can always turn the knobs down to your desired sound level, it has nothing to do with how much power you put into the loudspeakers. Proper gain structure is also important.

For my 4429 and the setting I have in my Crown DCi LevelMax Limiters is like this...

RMS Threshold (V rms) at 35.0 Volt

Thermal Voltage at 49.0 Volt

According to my specs of 4429, 200Watts RMS

https://www.google.se/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCIQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.crownaudio.com%2Fmedia%2Fpdf% 2Fsupport%2FITech%2520HD%2520LevelMax%2520Limiter% 2520Readme%2520File.pdf&ei=_enRVJ_IDMT8UOPqgMAH&usg=AFQjCNE_8MmOkeA12ZtN-bbKdQc9CjjNdA&bvm=bv.85076809,d.d24

sebackman
02-12-2015, 01:46 PM
Hi,

I have had the fortune to test many different amps including some high $$$ power houses.

Last desert walk was in the HiFi desert with Rotel, McIntosh, Krell and others. Albeit that there are many very good amps out there the impact of amps compare to the speakers and the room is in mho reasonable small.

Without doubt some of the PA amps have other focus that sheer sound quality, whereas the very best can combine them. Like always, you get what you pay for.

After wandering in the desert of amps and the vast amount of opinions accompanying them I returned to Crown last year. I settled for the Crown CTS series which I would argue combine sound quality with reasonable power output. Not outrageous in any dimension, but good sounding and also measuring good.

I have had the chance to A/B them to other amps with significant higher and lower price tags and find them very good for the price. In fact I cannot measure or hear a meaningful difference to the very expensive HiFi amps I have auditioned in my system.

When comparing sound equipment it is very important to use a Type 1 calibrated sound pressure meter to make certain that the level is exactly the same as our ears are very sensitive to level changes. Even 0,1db is noticeable when A/B testing so a “Radio Shack” sound pressure meter won’t be good enough. Here is where I personally think many A/B testers go wrong weather it is testing amps or cables. The measuring gear is not up to the task. –And lab standard measuring gear is expensive so it is easy to understand and accept that many “testers” try to compensate with perceived ability to differentiate the one cable from the next by hearing. From my point of view it is often the case that sound level changes is being interpreted as sound quality changes.

It may be my ears or my speakers/system that is sub-par and I can accept that, but my measuring rig is not. 

Anyway, long story short. With a good and well-designed amp, preferable deep bias class A/B to my ears, I think the room and the speakers have much more impact.

Kind regards
//RoB

baldrick
02-12-2015, 02:54 PM
Is there a lot of fan noise with the CTS?

What model do you have? As far as I've understod the ibigger models are class I and the smalle one are class ab.

I've considered them also but they are quite expensive here, but 120v versions are very chea on ebay.

sebackman
02-13-2015, 06:04 AM
Hi Baldrick,

The CTS series has fully variable fan speed so at low levels the fans do not run at all. And if you are in need of the fans you won't hear them anyway. :)

That was really a prerequisite for picking them, albeit that I ended up with installing them in a different room to get the amp rack out of sight for my wife.:blink:

I have a couple of CTS4200's and CTS8200's and plan to swap my MC2 sub amp for a CTS3000 when I find one used.

The CTS A/B amps are very quiet and well behaved in my opinion. Don't know about the CTS3000 as it is a class I amp. -Should be fine to feed my SUB1500's.

I’m all active XO so the CTS goes direct to the 2451 drivers and there is really very little background noise even with the high sensitivity and 8ohm Truextent dia’s. You really have to put the ear into the horn to hear it.

The current MC2 is a serious class A/B amp that puts out a healthy 1150W RMS in 4 ohms. There is really no need to swap it but I want to keep all the amps within the CTS “family” .

There are probably many other amps out there that are equally good or better but I found these to be the best compromise for me.

And since I’m 5.2 / 3-way fully active I need many amps. Here the multichannel units are perfect as you get the same behaviors and sound into all elements.

Kind regards
//RoB

duaneage
02-15-2015, 06:38 AM
I just got a Crown XLS 1000 and I am very happy with it. Only 11 pounds. The internal fans don't come on even under hard use and it has RCA inputs as well as balanced. The amp has internal crossover and mode switches through a front panel that can be done on the fly. You can run one channel hi pass nod the other low pass for even more flexibility as well as mono mode for more power.
Im done with ancient amps that use NLA parts. I plan to buy one or two more of these since they can be strung together. Mine is the lowest output at 200 a channel and they go to over 500 in other models.
the sound is dynamic and clean. Highly recommended.

Mctwins
02-15-2015, 10:11 PM
Some Crown amps in our system, Me and my twin bro's Bobeccas.

Mctwins
02-15-2015, 10:14 PM
Some more....

sebackman
02-19-2015, 03:00 PM
Just updated my HT at home .
:-)

Jonas_h
02-19-2015, 11:23 PM
My home theater has the "light version" of what was just posted :D
64683

hjames
02-20-2015, 02:06 AM
My home theater has the "light version" of what was just posted :D
64683
Impressive picture - can you break it down? What's in the rack? (damned spellcheck!)

I see 5 crown amps in the lower part; a pair of CTS 2000 and 3 CTS 1200 ...
What are the 5 pieces above them?

Jonas_h
02-20-2015, 02:11 AM
Impressive picture - can you break it down? What's in the right ...

I see 5 crown amps in the lower part; a pair of CTS 2000 and 3 CTS 1200 ...
Yeah one CTs2000 channel pr. sub (4 S1S-EX) and one CTs1200 amp pr. LCR (SK2-1000 with bi-amp settings). Then a BSS Soundweb London DSP and some crappy Behringer amps for surrounds. Would like to get this one for surrounds: http://www.crownaudio.com/usa/amplifiers/comtech-drivecore.html (8ch version).

I really like the Crowns. I would like to have the new DCi|N because of the digital connection between the DSP and amp.

sebackman
02-20-2015, 10:17 AM
Nice,

Looks pretty much like my setup.

What BLU are you using, can't see in the picture? I'm on a BLU800 and a BLU-BOB like you. I feed mine digital signal from a 7.2 pre.

I also use Crown CTS amps, a CTS8200 and two CTS4200's. Subs are handled by a MC2 T2000. Also in a rack :-). Planning to swap in a CTS3000 when I find a used one at a decent price.

I personally would stay away from the digital amps if you want to feed drivers and/or tweeters. At least in mho. -At least test first. I have had a few digital amps, including Crowns, and found them a bit harsh compared to ordinary AB units. I think it's the ADC conversions that is difficult, especially at low listening levels.

OT
I happen to have a spare CTS8200 in Stockholm if of interest. And heading to Copenhagen next week on business. :-)

//RoB

gferrell
02-24-2015, 12:51 PM
That is enough amps to power Europe and hear it from here!



Just updated my HT at home .
:-)

Mctwins
03-01-2015, 05:04 AM
Nice,

Looks pretty much like my setup.

What BLU are you using, can't see in the picture? I'm on a BLU800 and a BLU-BOB like you. I feed mine digital signal from a 7.2 pre.

I also use Crown CTS amps, a CTS8200 and two CTS4200's. Subs are handled by a MC2 T2000. Also in a rack :-). Planning to swap in a CTS3000 when I find a used one at a decent price.

I personally would stay away from the digital amps if you want to feed drivers and/or tweeters. At least in mho. -At least test first. I have had a few digital amps, including Crowns, and found them a bit harsh compared to ordinary AB units. I think it's the ADC conversions that is difficult, especially at low listening levels.

OT
I happen to have a spare CTS8200 in Stockholm if of interest. And heading to Copenhagen next week on business. :-)

//RoB

Hallo!

I just want to say that I don't feel or hear any harshness in my 4429 or in my bro's 4312E with the Crown amps.:dont-know:

Must be your room acoustics that gives the harshness sound.:)

sebackman
03-02-2015, 04:08 AM
Hi Mctwins

Nothing can replace your ears and that is what should matter the most to each of us.

The fact that JBL vent with Crown Itech's for the new M2's, and everyone seem to agree that they sound fantastic in that system, clearly indicates that digital amps can be an excellent choice. So far I have not read any reviews with the alternative offered with ML analog amps.

From my experience and with my ears/setup I found the analog units to suit me better for driving high sensitivity compression drivers and tweeters. For mid and bass it seem to matter significantly less. It is in mho more audible at low listening levels. It will of course differ from speaker to speaker and also I'm on an all active system where there are no filter components inbetween the amp and the driver. So maybe the amps I have tried would perform better on other systems. This are just my personal view here, no fact or sience involved.

I still think the older A/D converters is the root cause. I don't have any A/D conversion in my system as the data is kept in the digital domain from the CD (or other) all the way passed the DSP and is convered to analog just before the power amps.

However, maybe the newer units have overcome this (if it indeed ever was there) and in all hounesty I have not heard the Itech's in a contolled environment and set upnfor HiFi. Given the quick move into the digital domain within HiFi, i'm probably just lagging behind the curve...:banghead: .

if it aint broke, don't fix it :)

//RoB

Bobecca
03-02-2015, 05:59 AM
Hi

It is my system with the XLS1500 powering a pair of 4312E that Mctwins is talking about. I run same speaker with an Quad 909 and there is no more harchness than with the Crown. I was a bit suprized how actually a good sounding amp this is, just saying.

I also am running my main system with 3 MAi5000 powering my Cinema Screen Arrays 3731 with additional twin subs of 4641 and also dont feel any more harchness compared with monoblock of McIntosh MC275 running for the horns. Also have been running McIntosh MC252 for the same tops as well. It all bottoms down in how one is tuning the system and take acount for any room acoustics anomalies. That is how I see it.

I can easily mess up my both system to not sound got, and it is very easy to do;)

Mctwins
03-20-2015, 05:14 AM
Hallo!

Crown 2/600N in action via HiQnet...:)

antoninus9
03-24-2015, 10:49 AM
I just picked up an old Crown CE-2000 in good condition (at least cosmetically) to run a pair of JBL passive subs. I'm not very familiar with Crown amps, and was wondering if this was a good decision on my part. Perhaps I should have went with a newer model Crown?

1audiohack
03-24-2015, 02:38 PM
I have some of these amps and while they are not audiophile nor tour grade they have worked long and hard for me. No complaints at all.

Barry.

antoninus9
03-25-2015, 07:02 AM
I have some of these amps and while they are not audiophile nor tour grade they have worked long and hard for me. No complaints at all.

Barry.

Hi Barry,

Thanks for your reply to my Crown question. Sadly, the amp is dead, and the owner took it back. Now, I'm thinking about hunting down a Crown K1 or K2 to run the subs.

I never thought of myself as an "audiophile" because I would be considered a heretic in those circles. I use Belden cables, don't use tube amps, don't read Stereophile, and of course use JBL speakers. One post from me at AudioKarma and the audiophiles would go shrieking away in search of holy water to purify my soul. :D

BTW: Apparently, your inbox on this site has exceeded the limit. My reply to your earlier message was rejected for this reason. You may want to delete a few older messages. :)

baldrick
06-25-2015, 11:47 PM
I recently bought a few CTS1200 and 2000 without DSP Cards, only the basic PIP card.

PIP-USP2 are very cheap on ebay, are there much differnce between USP2 and USP3?

I guess the newer USP4 (as used in new Crown amps) is in another leauge, but it's too expensive.

Jonas_h
06-26-2015, 01:30 AM
I recently bought a few CTS1200 and 2000 without DSP Cards, only the basic PIP card.

PIP-USP2 are very cheap on ebay, are there much differnce between USP2 and USP3?

I guess the newer USP4 (as used in new Crown amps) is in another leauge, but it's too expensive.

Really nice amps: I use the CTs1200's as LCR-amps and CTs2000 as sub amps.

1audiohack
07-16-2015, 08:00 PM
Over lunch I just straight wired up (all DSP off) a new I-TECH 5000 HD and the 4435's in the office like it. At a glance it sounds pretty damn good, clear, clean, quiet and powerful.

Can't wait to get it home on the 4365's.

I can see it coming, vertically bi-amped and full DSP. Does it ever end?!? :D

Mr. Widget
07-17-2015, 11:24 PM
Can't wait to get it home on the 4365's.
How will you handle the fan noise?


Widget

Mctwins
07-18-2015, 06:45 AM
How will you handle the fan noise?


Widget

He just have to turn up the volume a little bit more:D

Mctwins
07-18-2015, 06:46 AM
Over lunch I just straight wired up (all DSP off) a new I-TECH 5000 HD and the 4435's in the office like it. At a glance it sounds pretty damn good, clear, clean, quiet and powerful.

Can't wait to get it home on the 4365's.

I can see it coming, vertically bi-amped and full DSP. Does it ever end?!? :D

Do you have two of them or just one?

1audiohack
07-18-2015, 07:35 AM
Hi All;

If I end up using this/these on the 4365's I may have to remote vent the amp rack. In the office there is a step down transformer in the UPS system for the computers and its cooling fan made the Crown's fan inaudible so I don't know how problematic it will be, for about another hour. :)

I only bought one to test and I have to say that I am quite suprised at how good the 4435's sound on it. I have had many amps in the offfice over the years and I don't recall any sounding better. The little drivers on the HF horns get in a bad way, noisy fast when pushed with an amp they don't like, they have never sounded as good so I am off to a positive start.

Barry.

1audiohack
07-20-2015, 12:18 PM
After a weekend of listening to the I-TECH 5000 HD I have a few things to share.

I have not yet cracked into the DSP engine so this is really amplifier only. It takes me some time to really settle in and get to know something that isn't supposed to have a sonic signature of it's own.

Just a few observations and what they are being compared to:

I have a pair of 64Volt 2kW 7560 series AE Techron amps that deliver a smooth 600 Watts into an 8Ω load . The pair I have are configured equal to the Crown M600 with .775 Volt input sensitivity and infinitely variable fans that you have to work to get them warm enough to even idle. I bought them new optimized for audio. These are currently my favorite amps, and have been for several years.

The sound quality is very similar. I really don't know that I can hear any difference, at least not yet, and for me that is a good thing.

The fans aren't terrible but I won't live with them in an open rack.

Power grid and RF noise immunity, not stellar. My audio system has a dedicated 50A 240 volt four wire outlet that is uninterrupted in it's home run and I have never heard any noise that is supply related, until now. I hear a click in the 4365's when the air-conditioning turns on or off. Not terrible but it's there. Also, if I put an ear up to a horn, I hear a radio or television station, well enough to know that it is in English. When the same is done with the Techrons, nothing, zero audible hiss and certainly no discernible RF. I can't hear that from the chair but, it's there.

I guess having all that iron and huge capacitors in between the grid and the amp output is a good filter.

Digital VS analog input:

The 5000 HD can be configured for either and or a preference that is auto switched. I set this one up for Digital in with analog as a back up so in the event that there is no digital signal to lock on to it defaults to digital.

This gave me a chance to do something I have long wanted to try, digital direct out from the CD player straight to an amp while being able to directly compare that to the analog signal from my AV pre. After setting the amp output voltage level at 1kHz to exactly match both types of input the test was on. I had a friend over and we took turns plugging the SPDF connector in and out well out of view of the listener, a blind test. When this is done the amp quietly self mutes about a second and softly comes back on in about one second. I did plenty of in, out, in at once so that it wasn't just a repeated in and out test. Could we hear a difference? Yep, with fairly good repeatability but barely. The difference?, the direct digital drive has just a touch more edge. We agreed that it was just different and neither was constantly desirable. It depended on the material.

I have always wondered what my AV pre contributed besides convenience. This test got that wonder out of my head. I do believe that the more direct the better but the "drive" that comes with a good pre amp is usually a welcome addition in the chain, at least to me.

I am going to get into the DSP this week.

Nothing in my system is top tier so I hope that this is at all useful.

All the best,
Barry.

bubbleboy76
07-20-2015, 02:35 PM
Very interesting. Thanx.

Which AV preamp do you have?

1audiohack
07-20-2015, 05:13 PM
Time to laugh. It is a 1991 or 1993 Sony TAE? 1000 ESD. :o:

It as gone up against a couple of Pioneers and a Marantz AV pre and hasn't been bested yet, for two channel sound quality. I don't care enough about video to sacrifice audio. The video part of it needs be only good enough to satisfy the kids and easy enough for the wife to use.

bubbleboy76
07-21-2015, 06:43 AM
My friend has a Sony 9000 ES from the 90's. He never found anything sounding better either.

pos
07-21-2015, 07:33 AM
Interesting review, thanks Barry!


This gave me a chance to do something I have long wanted to try, digital direct out from the CD player straight to an amp while being able to directly compare that to the analog signal from my AV pre. After setting the amp output voltage level at 1kHz to exactly match both types of input the test was on.
(...)
I have always wondered what my AV pre contributed besides convenience. This test got that wonder out of my head.

If you match the analog level with the (unattenuated) SPIDF signal then chances are that you are also near 0dB in the ADC depending on the gain structure of the amp, so this is the ideal situation.
If you attenuate the signal using your preamp before the ADC then maybe the difference will become more obvious at low levels.

Digital in is not flawless though: you get ASRC and jitter in the mix...

Dave_72
07-27-2015, 04:06 PM
After a weekend of listening to the I-TECH 5000 HD I have a few things to share.

I have not yet cracked into the DSP engine so this is really amplifier only. It takes me some time to really settle in and get to know something that isn't supposed to have a sonic signature of it's own.

Just a few observations and what they are being compared to:

I have a pair of 64Volt 2kW 7560 series AE Techron amps that deliver a smooth 600 Watts into an 8Ω load . The pair I have are configured equal to the Crown M600 with .775 Volt input sensitivity and infinitely variable fans that you have to work to get them warm enough to even idle. I bought them new optimized for audio. These are currently my favorite amps, and have been for several years.

The sound quality is very similar. I really don't know that I can hear any difference, at least not yet, and for me that is a good thing.

The fans aren't terrible but I won't live with them in an open rack.

Power grid and RF noise immunity, not stellar. My audio system has a dedicated 50A 240 volt four wire outlet that is uninterrupted in it's home run and I have never heard any noise that is supply related, until now. I hear a click in the 4365's when the air-conditioning turns on or off. Not terrible but it's there. Also, if I put an ear up to a horn, I hear a radio or television station, well enough to know that it is in English. When the same is done with the Techrons, nothing, zero audible hiss and certainly no discernible RF. I can't hear that from the chair but, it's there.

I guess having all that iron and huge capacitors in between the grid and the amp output is a good filter.

Digital VS analog input:

The 5000 HD can be configured for either and or a preference that is auto switched. I set this one up for Digital in with analog as a back up so in the event that there is no digital signal to lock on to it defaults to digital.

This gave me a chance to do something I have long wanted to try, digital direct out from the CD player straight to an amp while being able to directly compare that to the analog signal from my AV pre. After setting the amp output voltage level at 1kHz to exactly match both types of input the test was on. I had a friend over and we took turns plugging the SPDF connector in and out well out of view of the listener, a blind test. When this is done the amp quietly self mutes about a second and softly comes back on in about one second. I did plenty of in, out, in at once so that it wasn't just a repeated in and out test. Could we hear a difference? Yep, with fairly good repeatability but barely. The difference?, the direct digital drive has just a touch more edge. We agreed that it was just different and neither was constantly desirable. It depended on the material.

I have always wondered what my AV pre contributed besides convenience. This test got that wonder out of my head. I do believe that the more direct the better but the "drive" that comes with a good pre amp is usually a welcome addition in the chain, at least to me.

I am going to get into the DSP this week.

Nothing in my system is top tier so I hope that this is at all useful.

All the best,
Barry.

Did you get it used or new, may I ask. That's roughly a $4k amp new inc. a basic discount. Personally, no offense, but I would have gotten something like Bryston or Parasound. Or maybe a used Pass Labs.

1audiohack
07-28-2015, 12:10 AM
Hi Dave;

I bought it new. I am fairly familiar with the I-TECH series and it's sound character and pretty much knew what I was getting into amp wise and I agree that there are better sounding amps at this price point, I have several. In fact as just an amp, after living with the I-TECH 5000 for a while, I even like my Adcom 585's sound character better and the Tecrons better still.

I bought this amp to dig into the onboard DSP. According to the Crown I-TECH HD literature having the DSP engine in chassis gained them better than 6dB signal to noise through the amp than any, they said any other option outboard. Coupled with the fact that JBL chose it for the M2 and I have no high quality DSP system that has FIIR capability this looked worth the price of tuition.

My current opinion is that it will not be staying in the main system unless I can make real magic with the DSP. It is very powerful, it will swing 100 Volts 20-20kHz so I am sure I will always find use for it. :)

All the best,
Barry.

baldrick
07-28-2015, 03:32 AM
Did you get it used or new, may I ask. That's roughly a $4k amp new inc. a basic discount. Personally, no offense, but I would have gotten something like Bryston or Parasound. Or maybe a used Pass Labs.

A friend just replaced his Bryston 14B SST with a Crown CTS... he has not looked back and do prefer the Crown over the Bryston :) Another one replaced his Holton amps With another Crown CTS and he was shocked about the performance of Crown.

Dave_72
07-28-2015, 02:56 PM
A friend just replaced his Bryston 14B SST with a Crown CTS... he has not looked back and do prefer the Crown over the Bryston :) Another one replaced his Holton amps With another Crown CTS and he was shocked about the performance of Crown.

Crown CTS? You mean something like this? http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/271404-REG/Crown_Audio_CTS600_CTs_600_Two_Channel_Power.html

That's cool, I wouldn't mind hearing one if I could get a home audition. In addition to the pro stuff, Crown used to make amps more for home use, you know.

Dave_72
07-28-2015, 03:05 PM
Hi Dave;

I bought it new. I am fairly familiar with the I-TECH series and it's sound character and pretty much knew what I was getting into amp wise and I agree that there are better sounding amps at this price point, I have several. In fact as just an amp, after living with the I-TECH 5000 for a while, I even like my Adcom 585's sound character better and the Tecrons better still.

I bought this amp to dig into the onboard DSP. According to the Crown I-TECH HD literature having the DSP engine in chassis gained them better than 6dB signal to noise through the amp than any, they said any other option outboard. Coupled with the fact that JBL chose it for the M2 and I have no high quality DSP system that has FIIR capability this looked worth the price of tuition.

My current opinion is that it will not be staying in the main system unless I can make real magic with the DSP. It is very powerful, it will swing 100 Volts 20-20kHz so I am sure I will always find use for it. :)

All the best,
Barry.


No problem. Use whatever suits your wants and needs. It's just that I find funny that objectivist types sing the praises of pro amps like Crown not realizing that Crown has amps that cost just as much as the dreaded high end models.

BMWCCA
07-28-2015, 04:30 PM
A friend just replaced his Bryston 14B SST with a Crown CTS... he has not looked back and do prefer the Crown over the Bryston :) Another one replaced his Holton amps With another Crown CTS and he was shocked about the performance of Crown.
Just because Crown also builds less-expensive amps designed for DJ-style work, doesn't mean they don't know how to also build a quality amp suitable for hi-fi use.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again; back when I bought my first Crown (probably 1972), my local hi-fi dealer and JBL and McIntosh franchise recommended Crown to me. They sold only top-end home hi-fi and they were a Crown dealer. They let me take home a D60, D150, and DC300 to try as replacements for my Fisher SA1000 whose thirst for expensive proprietary tubes annually was wearing thin. I hooked them to my Mac C20—JBL 030 system and determined the D150 fit the budget and made the improvement I was looking for. I'd have gone with the DC300 but it was maybe twice the money back then. I still have that D150 and the C20 today. They've been inseparable from my L112s for over 30-years.

Over the years I brought the C20 and the D150 to the Mac Clinics and the McIntosh guys were very impressed with its performance specs.

There's obviously a touch of snobbery attached to the term "audiophile" and I can't deny that pride of ownership is important to how many feel about their home systems. I've been proud of the way Crown performs in mine for over 40-years. I'd suggest anyone with a spare $200 or so to just try a PS-400 and see what they think. You'll never lose money if you decide it's not your style, but you might be impressed by what you hear.
:dead_horse:

Odd
07-28-2015, 07:34 PM
Has a PL-4 in the main system, and it remains there.

baldrick
07-28-2015, 11:52 PM
Crown CTS? You mean something like this? http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/271404-REG/Crown_Audio_CTS600_CTs_600_Two_Channel_Power.html

That's cool, I wouldn't mind hearing one if I could get a home audition. In addition to the pro stuff, Crown used to make amps more for home use, you know.

The bigger Crown CTS are very similar to iTech but without the DSP (can though put in DSP card). Since they are build for permanent installs and not touring they don't have similar loud fans either, they have fans but not as loud as i.e. iTech and MacroTech. CTS runs very cheap on ebay and they really are excellent amps!!

Jonas_h
07-29-2015, 01:14 AM
Crown CTS? You mean something like this? http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/271404-REG/Crown_Audio_CTS600_CTs_600_Two_Channel_Power.html

That's cool, I wouldn't mind hearing one if I could get a home audition. In addition to the pro stuff, Crown used to make amps more for home use, you know.


I know a few people who had the Studio Reference II amp from Crown. It beat every other "hifi-amp" they ever heard. Crown discontinued it and moved that segment to Mark Levinson.

I bought the CTs amps which is mentioned as they are standard class A/B and the only reason I consider an upgrade is because Harman introduced the DCi line-up which accepts BLU-link input so it can connect digitally to the JBL SDEC DSP.

svollmer
07-29-2015, 04:19 AM
I'd suggest anyone with a spare $200 or so to just try a PS-400 and see what they think. You'll never lose money if you decide it's not your style, but you might be impressed by what you hear.
:dead_horse:

We can't.....

You already bought all the nice ones! :D

baldrick
07-29-2015, 09:53 AM
I know a few people who had the Studio Reference II amp from Crown. It beat every other "hifi-amp" they ever heard. Crown discontinued it and moved that segment to Mark Levinson.

I bought the CTs amps which is mentioned as they are standard class A/B and the only reason I consider an upgrade is because Harman introduced the DCi line-up which accepts BLU-link input so it can connect digitally to the JBL SDEC DSP.

I've had Studio Reference also :)

CTS600 and 1200 are class a/b but CTS2000 and 3000 is not, they are class I!

Dave_72
07-29-2015, 03:24 PM
Just because Crown also builds less-expensive amps designed for DJ-style work, doesn't mean they don't know how to also build a quality amp suitable for hi-fi use.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again; back when I bought my first Crown (probably 1972), my local hi-fi dealer and JBL and McIntosh franchise recommended Crown to me. They sold only top-end home hi-fi and they were a Crown dealer. They let me take home a D60, D150, and DC300 to try as replacements for my Fisher SA1000 whose thirst for expensive proprietary tubes annually was wearing thin. I hooked them to my Mac C20—JBL 030 system and determined the D150 fit the budget and made the improvement I was looking for. I'd have gone with the DC300 but it was maybe twice the money back then. I still have that D150 and the C20 today. They've been inseparable from my L112s for over 30-years.

Over the years I brought the C20 and the D150 to the Mac Clinics and the McIntosh guys were very impressed with its performance specs.

There's obviously a touch of snobbery attached to the term "audiophile" and I can't deny that pride of ownership is important to how many feel about their home systems. I've been proud of the way Crown performs in mine for over 40-years. I'd suggest anyone with a spare $200 or so to just try a PS-400 and see what they think. You'll never lose money if you decide it's not your style, but you might be impressed by what you hear.
:dead_horse:


Ok, what's a quality amp (from the Crown line up) for hi-fi use?

And those higher priced Crowns aren't much less expensive than the Levinson 532H.

Just throwing that out there due to the misconception that all Crown is dirt cheap.

Personally, I would go for the Levinson, even though I'm not a fan, but that's just my opinion.

Dave_72
07-29-2015, 03:26 PM
I know a few people who had the Studio Reference II amp from Crown. It beat every other "hifi-amp" they ever heard. Crown discontinued it and moved that segment to Mark Levinson.

I bought the CTs amps which is mentioned as they are standard class A/B and the only reason I consider an upgrade is because Harman introduced the DCi line-up which accepts BLU-link input so it can connect digitally to the JBL SDEC DSP.

Yes, that's the one...Studio Reference.

I heard about that too.

So, what do you think of Levinson?

Dave_72
07-29-2015, 03:29 PM
The bigger Crown CTS are very similar to iTech but without the DSP (can though put in DSP card). Since they are build for permanent installs and not touring they don't have similar loud fans either, they have fans but not as loud as i.e. iTech and MacroTech. CTS runs very cheap on ebay and they really are excellent amps!!

Ok, cool thanks.

BMWCCA
07-29-2015, 04:55 PM
I know a few people who had the Studio Reference II amp from Crown. It beat every other "hifi-amp" they ever heard. Crown discontinued it and moved that segment to Mark Levinson.

I have the Studio Reference II.

I'm saving it for the 250Ti because bi-amping with the PS400 and PS200 on the 4345 works just fine!
:cheers:

Dave_72
07-29-2015, 06:43 PM
A friend just replaced his Bryston 14B SST with a Crown CTS... he has not looked back and do prefer the Crown over the Bryston :) Another one replaced his Holton amps With another Crown CTS and he was shocked about the performance of Crown.

Some things came to mind that I thought you should know regarding Crown vs. the Bryston amp.

1. That is an old model Bryston. The series 2 (which is getting old also) 14B is completely revamped. Filter caps, transformers, transistors, everything.

2. Bryston's not the greatest in sound anyway. They've always been middle of the road sound wise. I should know, I've had their stuff for 8 years now.

3. If you told me better than Pass Labs, Accuphase, the latest McIntosh stuff, or even the new ATI 6002 amp, I would be impressed, regardless if I would believe you or not! And I wouldn't!

Jonas_h
07-29-2015, 10:34 PM
I've had Studio Reference also :)

CTS600 and 1200 are class a/b but CTS2000 and 3000 is not, they are class I!

Why did you sell the Studio Ref?

Ahh yes, I didn't mention that. Only the smaller models are A/B. That is actually why I chose like I did... A/B for LCR and Class I for subs. If I am not mistaken, Class I sounds best full range if you bridge it. It will double the switching rate. Correct me if I am wrong, but Mark Levinson amps are actually Class I as well but with higher switching rate than the Crowns (also iTechs).

1audiohack
08-03-2015, 04:27 PM
The end of my Techron 7570 vs I-TECH 5000HD comparison.

One thing I have come to know with me at least is that I am better at recognizing deficiencies faster than good qualities when it comes to subtile ques in audio and often I will swap something into a system and not at once recognize a subtile difference if the difference is posative as compared to what was just displaced. When I usually notice is when I go back and it sounds worse.

Today I put the Techron's back in place of the I-TECH 5000HD's and I am not unhappy. They just sound great. The RFI and power grid noise is happily absent as is the fan noise.

The I-TECH will find a home in another system.

Barry.

JeffW
08-03-2015, 08:16 PM
Get that 7780 or whatever it is running!

If nothing else, you'll be the only kid on your block - guaranteed!

1audiohack
08-03-2015, 09:05 PM
Yeah I need to wire an outlet and power it up, big fun for sure.

grumpy
08-03-2015, 09:38 PM
what is that thing? for like an x-ray machine or something? :D

Mr. Widget
08-03-2015, 10:09 PM
what is that thing? for like an x-ray machine or something? :DI think SLAC is looking for one of their beam focusing power supplies that have gone missing. :blink:


Widget

pos
08-04-2015, 01:24 AM
:eek: what a beast!
It looks like the output circuit was designed by Crown.
It also look like it can do current-drive instead of voltage-drive?...
Is that the case?

Challenger604
08-04-2015, 06:53 AM
what is that thing? for like an x-ray machine or something? :D

It's an A/C!

1audiohack
08-04-2015, 06:54 AM
what is that thing? for like an x-ray machine or something? :D

I think you know. :)

1audiohack
08-04-2015, 06:58 AM
I think SLAC is looking for one of their beam focusing power supplies that have gone missing. :blink:

Widget

No worries, it was their spare. One of the kids sold it to me for beer money, and I believe it is brand new.

1audiohack
08-04-2015, 07:09 AM
:eek: what a beast!
It looks like the output circuit was designed by Crown.
It also look like it can do current-drive instead of voltage-drive?...
It that the case?

Correct on all accounts.

As near as I can tell, of all the common configurations of the 7700 series, only two of them, the 7780 and 7782 are low frequency amps. These are flat from DC to 40kHz and extend to 100kHz but are down to single digit Watt output by 100k.

I have to revisit the specifics for the one I have, one is optimized for loads below one Ohm and one for loads above one Ohm. This one will swing over 200V into a half Ohm load at 38 Amps. The output connectors are for four gage wire. This thing is just plane silly!

My plan is to see how many 2242's it will drive. :)

1audiohack
08-04-2015, 07:11 AM
It's an A/C!


Close! It is a heater!

grumpy
08-04-2015, 07:29 AM
looks like 4-8 (2242)... in parallel :eek: Get out your welding cables :)

1audiohack
08-04-2015, 07:38 AM
Damn! Looks like I need one more! :)

pos
08-04-2015, 08:51 AM
Before you burn those poor ol' 2242H to death/deaf, why not try and see what current drive mode can do for your 1200fe in its midbass configuration (ie used above Fs) ?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/277997-break-up-frequency-distortion.html#post4410302

1audiohack
08-04-2015, 01:07 PM
I have much smaller/safer amps that will operate in CC mode than this monster.

I have thought about the CC thing and only once tried it, by accident. If you switch one of these into CC mode without the sensor wire at the load it goes full output loooking for something coming back. It was an amazing experience. The amp itself sounded like a camera flash charging up and heat radiated out of it immediately.

I will have to reconsider CC after re-reading that thread. It's been a while.

The 7700 amp is for the shop only, I don't three phase power at the house.

Barry.

pos
08-04-2015, 01:19 PM
I have much smaller/safer amps that will operate in CC mode than this monster. What model is it?
A smaller Techron?
I have been looking for a ready-made current amp for a long time now...

1audiohack
08-04-2015, 02:29 PM
Hi Thomas;

I cut this out of a manual I have. After reading it all I decided that without evidence of serious sonic benefits I would stick with CV.

CC and CV Modes
Techron amplifiers offer precise control of
current or voltage. Techron amplifiers are
designed to operate in either controlled
voltage mode or controlled current mode.
Some models provide only one mode, and
others offer selection between modes.
In controlled voltage (CV) mode (formerly
called “constant voltage”), the output voltage
is an amplified voltage representation of the
input voltage signal. (See Illustration 1.) The
input signal to the amplifier produces a
desired voltage, and the amplifier maintains
that desired voltage even if the load varies. If
the load’s impedance changes, the amplifier
seeks to maintain the desired voltage by
changing its output current. Use CV mode
when the output voltage waveform should be
like the input voltage waveform.
In controlled current (CC) mode (formerly
called “constant current”), the output current
is an amplified current representation of the
input voltage signal. (See Illustration 2.) If
the load’s impedance changes, the amplifier
seeks to maintain the desired output current
by changing the output voltage. Use CC
mode when the output current waveform
should be like the input voltage waveform.
In CC operation, the load is a critical circuit
component and must always be connected to
the amplifier! (See
Illustration 8 for a
diagram of a CC/CV
circuit inside an
amplifier.) If no
load is attached, no
current can flow.
The amplifier,
however, will vainly
seek the impossible
current
requirement by raising the
voltage as high as
possible. The
amplifier will then
operate in an
unstable and possibly
damaging
manner.
In CC operation,
not only must a load always be connected, but
it must be connected to the proper terminals.
In the 7521, 7541, 7700 family, and 8700
family amplifiers, the load must be connected
to the Output and Sampled Common
terminals. (See Illustration 9.) The shunt
resistor connecting the Common and
Sampled Common tells the amplifier how
much current is flowing through the load.
Without this vital information, the amplifier
will become unstable and possibly self-destructive
while in CC mode.
Since the load is a critical part of the circuit,
the resistance, inductance, and capacitance of
the load must be compensated to obtain
accurate CC operation. Compensation is
performed by altering the values of the
“compensation network” (a resistor and a
capacitor) inside the amplifier. (See Illustration
8.) Amplifiers are most easily compensated
to a resistive load that has an inductive
component. (For more tips on CC operation
consult the Techron publication Application
Note: Controlled Current Operation.)
In CV operation, the amount of current
flowing through the load is not crucial to the
operation of the circuit. The load may be
connected to either the Common or the
Sampled Common terminals. You must use
the Sampled Common terminal, however, if
you want to use the amplifier test points
(where applicable) to monitor the current
flowing through the load.

Impedance Matching
An amplifier transfers maximum power to a
specific load impedance. (Illustration 10 shows
a power transfer curve for a 7780 amplifier in
CV mode with a
continuous 1 kHz
sine wave input.)
Compared to this
optimal value, if a
load’s impedance is
lower (producing
high current/low
voltage), the amplifier
may become
current limited and
may start to overheat. If the load’s impedance
is higher than the optimal value (producing low
current/high voltage), the amplifier may become
voltage limited and be unable to transfer
as much power.
Maximum power transfer depends on amplifier
design, load design (relative values of resistance,
capacitance, and inductance), duty cycle,
and waveform. The optimal load impedances of
Techron amplifiers range, according to the
model, from approximately 0.25 to 100 W. (The
optimal load impedances is not the same as the
impedance at the amplifier output terminals—
typically only a few mW.)
Many loads driven by amplifiers consist of
some type of coil. Coil design is an important
factor in choosing a suitable amplifier to drive
it. A coil composed of a thick wire with few
turns can create the same magnetic field as a
coil composed of a thin wire with many turns.
However, the first coil may require more
current than an amplifier can provide while
the latter may require more voltage than the
amplifier can provide. Ideally, a coil should
be designed from the start to match its
intended power supply.


Coil impedance depends not only on its own
inductance but also on the signal frequency.
The inductive reactance (XL) of a coil equals
2pfL. For example, say an application requires
10 A through a 0.001 H coil. At 100 Hz
the coil’s inductive reactance is 0.63 W. Since
E=IR, (ignoring coil capacitive reactance and
resistance), the amplifier must be capable of
at least 6.3 V (10 A x 0.63 W) to meet the 10 A
requirement.
At 10 kHz, however,
the coil’s inductive
reactance is 62.8 W.
Then an amplifier
would need to be
capable of at least
628 V (10 A x 62.8
W) to meet the 10 A
requirement. (See
Illustration 11.)
The higher-impedance problem may also
affect applications unexpectedly since signal
frequencies often do not remain constant.
Even relatively low-frequency (on average)
signals may contain some waveforms with
rapid rise times (transitions from one voltage
amplitude to another). Rapid rise times can
temporarily boost the effective signal frequency,
coil reactance, and needed amplifier
voltage to very high levels.
All Techron amplifiers can easily handle
frequencies to 20 kHz and beyond, but none
individually can produce 628 V as needed in
the example above. A series system of amplifiers
might produce enough voltage, but a
better solution is to design the application to
operate with lower voltage. Techron application
engineers can work with you to determine
your best design in coil parameters.


This makes it look like a standard voice coil may be far from an optimized match for this method of drive so I didn't pursue it further.

In any event, the 7500 series is the slightly more sane line for CC or CV.

Sorry for struggling with the text editor. This is the best I could do in a snap.

All the best,
Barry.

NickH
08-04-2015, 03:55 PM
No 3 phase in your house, what were you thinking.


How much does that boat anchor weigh?


Nick

pos
08-04-2015, 04:33 PM
Hi Barry


This makes it look like a standard voice coil may be far from an optimized match for this method of drive so I didn't pursue it further.
Actually I think the opposite is true.
You can find theoretical information on this web site (http://www.current-drive.info/), as well as many threads on the diyaudio forum under the terms "transconductance" or "current drive".

You can also try for yourself using a series resistor between the amp and driver to simulate a high output impedance (ie damping factor smaller than 1).
When I tried this I got tremendous reduction in harmonic distortion (especially 3rd order), except for compression drivers where it did not seem to change a thing.
Of course the response get modified as any rise in impedance will cause a rise in magnitude (beware of the Fs...), but this can always be arranged using EQ, and you always have to use EQ in an active multiway system anyway.

Of course it is better to stay above the Fs of the driver (or use drivers with a very low Qms, but that is certainly not the case of the 1200Fe), and use EQ to reduce its effect in the stop band.

1audiohack
08-06-2015, 06:32 AM
Hi Thomas!

I am unable to study this at the moment as I am away from home and out of internet contact for the most part this week but I am curious and working to understand how this CC method works via a series resistor to reduce distortion. I will be the first to admit that I don't know near as much about electronics as I would like to so I am not certain how to properly (technically) phrase this question but here goes:

I do not understand how removing an element of control (dampening) from a transducer-amplifier system could in itself have the positive effect of distortion reduction of the transducer. It seems possible though the series resistor would act as a buffer alowing the amp to operate in a more comfortable area of operation as a voltage source. When the amp and the transducer are at odds with each other, if the difference is spent as heat in the resistor rather than engaging (dramatically ?) the feedback (control loop) system in the amplifier, I think I can see my way clear to a reduction in some type of distortion in the "system". If I have it right, this would make the level of benefit system dependent eg to a particular amp and transducer.

It would seem that this will likely be a tradeoff with some other effect and which may be less offensive and desirable and that is always the secondary goal in audio if one cannot achieve the outright elimination of what ever ails it.

I don't know how to ask it any better than that. I am in hopes that you will help me understand.

Thank you,
Barry.

pos
08-06-2015, 06:56 AM
Hi Barry,

I am afraid the electrical notions behind this distortion reduction are beyond my reach, but the diyaudio threads and the website I linked should give you the in-depth explanation you are looking for.
I think the benefit are solely transducer-dependant.
In my own tests I found that the older the motor structure, the higher the benefits.
It looks like current-drive fully achieve what shortcut rings and other similar mechanisms are attempting to do.

I did not keep all my measurements, but I can share data on the JBL C500G, JBL 2020H, TAD TM1201H, TAD TL1801H

1audiohack
08-06-2015, 08:39 AM
Thank you Thomas.

I will look into it when I get back.

All the best,
Barry.

bubbleboy76
06-28-2016, 03:13 PM
Crown-question #1.
Anyone who knows if the power-inlet of the Crown CTs-series is universal, or are there separate 110 and 220 volt versions?

bubbleboy76
06-29-2016, 04:02 AM
Crown-question #2.
I do not understand the "input sensitivity switches" on my Crown CTs-600, explained in the manual like this:
The switches are in the top surface of the cavity behind the Input Panel. One 3-position switch per channel selects among these settings: 1.4V (8/4 ohms), 26 dB gain, and 1.4V (70Voperation).

From another place in the manual:
Maximum Input Level
Before input compression +20 dBu
Absolute maximum + 32 dBu

What are the different switch positions intended use?
Which one should I use with my dbx4820?
I can select a range of different output voltages in the dbx, ranging from 4dbu to 24dbu.

1audiohack
06-29-2016, 11:56 AM
Hi there;

If I follow your questions correctly:

Input sensitivity, the input voltage requried to drive the amp to full power would be 1.4V or 3.46V in the 26dB position. Why they just don't say it I don't know.

The 70-140 volt operating option is for driving a distributed speaker system like in a restaurant or retail store where the speakers are each isolated from the amp via a transformer.

The dB input before limiting and absolute tell you how much voltage the input section of the amp can tolerate. This is usually about 8V.

Am I on the right page with you or are you after something else?

Barry.

bubbleboy76
06-29-2016, 05:13 PM
Hi there;

If I follow your questions correctly:

Input sensitivity, the input voltage requried to drive the amp to full power would be 1.4V or 3.46V in the 26dB position. Why they just don't say it I don't know.

The 70-140 volt operating option is for driving a distributed speaker system like in a restaurant or retail store where the speakers are each isolated from the amp via a transformer.

The dB input before limiting and absolute tell you how much voltage the input section of the amp can tolerate. This is usually about 8V.

Am I on the right page with you or are you after something else?

Barry.

OK, that is kind of the right page :)
So which setting should I use in the Crown and in the DBX?
It is better to send as high signal as possible (without clipping the crown) from the source (dbx), right?
So optimal would be 13dBu out from dbx, 26dB position in the crown input, and then set the crown gain to lowest possible setting to reach the max spl I want?

bubbleboy76
06-29-2016, 05:16 PM
Crown-question #1.
Anyone who knows if the power-inlet of the Crown CTs-series is universal, or are there separate 110 and 220 volt versions?

I can answer this myself now. There are separate versions.

boputnam
06-30-2016, 09:44 PM
Personally I like Bryston.:yes:

1audiohack
06-30-2016, 09:48 PM
OK, that is kind of the right page :)
So which setting should I use in the Crown and in the DBX?
It is better to send as high signal as possible (without clipping the crown) from the source (dbx), right?
So optimal would be 13dBu out from dbx, 26dB position in the crown input, and then set the crown gain to lowest possible setting to reach the max spl I want?

Sorry to be so slow to respond! I was hoping to do this from a PC but I haven't been in the office.

OK, what you say can be correct but this is where it gets past being a simple answer. I don't know anything about your signal chain so I'm guessing this is your home system and you are likely dealing with a pre of some sort that is likely a one to two volt drive (consumer -RCA cable?) and what dbx unit?


Here is my thinking in a nut shell on the subject:

You only need enough line level voltage to get it as loud as you would ever listen. Your pre might have enough voltage to do this on its own with no additional gain from the dbx if the CTS is set for 1.4V and if that is the case run the dbx at unity gain and you could be done.

If this is not the case then to keep the noise floor as low as possible, you want to get all the additional gain in as early in the signal chain as possible ie the input side of the dbx and run as much down stream at unity as possible. This will preserve the maximum amount of headroom for dynamics as well.

Unless you are in an extremely hostile electrical/magnetic environment this should work. Adding the additional gain in the dbx to output +13dBu only to pad it back down in the amp input is not the way I would do it unless you were really fighting noise.

I have made many assumptions here. If the above isn't helpful, fill in some equipment blanks and we can go on.

All the best,
Barry.

bubbleboy76
06-30-2016, 11:37 PM
I use my dbx 4820 as preamp you can say.
I send 4 channels (L, C, R, and LFE) of digital AES/EBU in to it from a modded Oppo BDP-103 (using a Vanity103HD-card).
Volume-control I do with a dbx zc-2 knob.
From the dbx I go analog xlr to the Crown CTs-600 amp.
My oppo then has 2 hdmi-inputs, so it is preamp in that sense of input selection. But it is all digital in to the dbx 4820.
The dbx-4820 does my volume control, and is my DAC, and will do EQ and delays, etc.

baldrick
08-09-2016, 03:15 PM
I consider Crown iTech amps for sub duty but fan noise is a huge problem... Have anyone replaced the fans in iTech with silent ones??

baldrick
12-28-2016, 06:53 AM
Santa came a little late this year :)

1audiohack
12-28-2016, 12:30 PM
I like your santa better than mine. :)

You are in for some fun!

Barry.

baldrick
12-28-2016, 03:24 PM
I like your santa better than mine. :)

You are in for some fun!

Barry.

I guesst I must have been a nice boy this year :bouncy:

bubbleboy76
12-28-2016, 03:33 PM
Santa came a little late this year :)

Nice :)

sebackman
01-02-2017, 02:42 AM
Hi bubbleboy76,

I just wanted to clarify the 26db setting. This is only incoporated to match the CTS multi channel amps CTS4200 & 8200 as they are 26db native voltage gain. If used in the same system it makes life easier if basic gain is the same. I always use 4/8 ohm settings and and compensate in the DSP for the gain difference.

Native gain 4/8 ohm operation:
CTS600 35:1 31 db
CTS 1200 50:1 34 db
CTS2000 63,9:1 36db
CTS3000 71,4:1 37db
CTS4200 20:1 26db
CTS8200 20:1 26db


Regarding voltage there are both 220v and 110v CTS units. They are internally different and not easy to rebuild. Parts are available from Crown but rather expensive.

Happy New Year
//Rob

NWCgrad
01-02-2017, 07:04 AM
Santa was also good to me this year:
75281

The CT4150 will be used to drive the HF and MF of my three-way build. Cannot wait for the dbx Venu360 to arrive so I can get my system re-wired.

DES-1
01-02-2017, 08:59 AM
I picked these up in the fall from Harman auction, 5 CTS1200 at a bargain price, when I was planning a power-hungry vintage clone. Not sure if these will work with the current plans, M2 components + DSP.

75284

sebackman
01-03-2017, 07:59 AM
Hi DES-1

Your CTS1200's will do just fine with M2. That is what I use for my M2 Clowns (not real clones ). You need an outboard DSP to run them.

I suggest finding a used BSS BLU50, 16, 80,160, 800, 100, 101, 102 or 103 on Ebay and just fire away.

If you use a BSS you can just download a macro from JBL into the BSS with all the factory seetings you need.

Or you get a different brand DSP to your liking and use the settings kindly shared by member 4313b here on LH. They are also available in the excellent "primer" by member POS. Find one of his posts and look at the bottom, there is a link there.

I don't think 2216Nd would mind more power than 600W RMS but for domestic use that is plenty. I will swap my CTS1200/CTS600 combo for a CTS4200 in my system as I very rarely use the power.

Kind regards
//Rob

johanwholst
01-03-2017, 09:10 AM
I have been using cts1200 on 2216nd now since early summer, and for domestic use in a 40sqm room it can tear off the wallpaper.
In addition it sounds excellent and run silent after seapping fans for noctua

DES-1
01-03-2017, 07:38 PM
Good information, thanks gents, I'll definitely go DSP and will do more learning and reading per suggestion especially on BSS. So far I did read the google doc authored by POS plus a couple of the clone build threads.

My main concern with the cts1200 was regarding the hf section, driving the d2430k with a channel of the cts1200...is it safe to do so? I'll be building and running the protection networks for the D2's but isn't 600 watts entirely too much power?

johanwholst
01-04-2017, 04:06 AM
Good information, thanks gents, I'll definitely go DSP and will do more learning and reading per suggestion especially on BSS. So far I did read the google doc authored by POS plus a couple of the clone build threads.

My main concern with the cts1200 was regarding the hf section, driving the d2430k with a channel of the cts1200...is it safe to do so? I'll be building and running the protection networks for the D2's but isn't 600 watts entirely too much power?

Remember the D2 connected in series is about 20 ohms, and CTS1200 only gives 300w in 16 ohms, but still its probably complete overkill for domestic use. Then again the network burns a lot of power (I recall POS calculated this in one of the M2 threads?), and it has apparently a very high power handling.
So yes, I think it is safe with the network in place, and a well functioning CTS1200 with all its protection circuits. If you are building a pure clone, there is logic using similar amps for HF and LF section. Unlike me who ventured into experimental DIY terrain with a different driver and low power class A amp for the HF.

srm51555
01-04-2017, 07:45 AM
....Then again the network burns a lot of power (I recall POS calculated this in one of the M2 threads?), and it has apparently a very high power handling.

Here: http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?37659-Project-M2-DIY-Thread&p=398726&viewfull=1#post398726