Help With Potential DIY Project [Archive]

dkalsi

08-04-2009, 11:47 AM

Hi all,

I am currently contemplating pursuing a DIY project. I was hoping people would chime in and suggest which way I should go. I currently have the following components on hand:

1 - pair of JBL 2395 (horns+lens+stands)
1 - pair of JBL 2350 (with 2" throat adapter)
2 - pairs of JBL 2441 (one pair with titanium and the other with aluminum)
1 - pair of NIB JBL 2404H baby cheek tweeters

Any suggestions on which way I should go. Part of me wants to consider the pursing the JBL 4355/3155 that Mr.Widget built - but need to check with him if it is worth the cost.

Additional components to consider:

JBL 2405 tweeters (as it seems to be the forum favorite)
JBL 2235H - seem to be impossible to find, can't decide if I need 2 or 4
JBL 2245 - again tough to find

Any thoughts?

hjames

08-04-2009, 01:52 PM

Do you know of any JBL speakers that uses any combination of them??
Maybe 2 ways even?

Got box building skills?

How are your custom crossover chops?

Hi all,

I am currently contemplating pursuing a DIY project. I was hoping people would chime in and suggest which way I should go. I currently have the following components on hand:

1 - pair of JBL 2395 (horns+lens+stands)
1 - pair of JBL 2350 (with 2" throat adapter)
2 - pairs of JBL 2441 (one pair with titanium and the other with aluminum)
1 - pair of NIB JBL 2404H baby cheek tweeters

Any suggestions on which way I should go. Part of me wants to consider the pursing the JBL 4355/3155 that Mr.Widget built - but need to check with him if it is worth the cost.

Additional components to consider:

JBL 2405 tweeters (as it seems to be the forum favorite)
JBL 2235H - seem to be impossible to find, can't decide if I need 2 or 4
JBL 2245 - again tough to find

Any thoughts?

grumpy

08-04-2009, 02:58 PM

dkalsi

08-04-2009, 03:56 PM

What experience and resource do you have available? There's certainly no
guarantee that assembling wonderful, individual components will have a
wonderful, combined result. As Heather mentioned, starting from a known
product and modifying to taste -can- be a shorter path to a satisfying end.

Giant, loud, blow your ears out, JBL-based boxes are an attainable given.

The 2395/2441's over a pair of 2235's would be interesting, certainly from
a visual standpoint.

The 2404's might spray too wide, depending on your room, to match the
midrange, but ok. .. where do you want to go and how much weight can you
pull on the project? Measurement equipment? Crossover design experience?
Assembly skills? ...

Excellent questions.

I would certianly like to pursue a DIY project that has already proven sucessful.
I unfortunately do not have testing equipment. I know this does not mean a whole lot, but if I have general plans or guidelines (enclosure volume, port lenght, etc.) - I can certainly do the construction.

I was really hoping member can share their experience with the aforemetioned equipment - and suggest which way has proven sucessful results.

I have someone interest in purchasing my 2395s - If I decide to sell to him, he is willing to sell me the following gear: 2 pairs (4 woofers) of 2235 (freshly reconed) + a pair of 2405 + smith horns + potentially 2122H (<-for which he is asking an arm and a leg). Ofcouse, I would also be handing over some cash in addition to my 2395 as well.

If I go forward with the above transaction, I will have the following components at my leasure:

1 - pair smith horns
2 - pairs 2441 drivers
2 - paris 2235H driver
1 - pari 2405 (alino)
1 - pair of 2404H
1 - pair of 2122H drivers

(hopefully that is).

jerry_rig

08-04-2009, 04:31 PM

Sounds like you're covered! :applaud:

Earl K

08-04-2009, 06:30 PM

Here's one idea for you ;

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=33159&stc=1&d=1215531302

- These are ( or at least were ) John Ws' main speakers . John stated that they imaged quite well .

- The 2435H could be substituted by your 2441s / working behind either a 2311 ( & 2308 lens ) or Selenium round exponential horn ( with maybe the L94 lens ) or ( perhaps ) a set of nice wood horns purchased from John .

- Components were as follows ;

LF = 2245H
MF = 2202H

( IME, you'll want a 12" midbass as dynamic as this model, to "voice" or properly balance up with the 2441 / the 2123H could work / though the 2122H doesn't quite have the numbers ( from what I calculate, to keep up to a 2441 )

HF = 2435H on a custom horn ( "turned" on a lathe by John )
UHF = 2407H on a custom horn ( "turned" on a lathe by John )

>< cheers

ps ; here's the Selenium Horn, available from P.E. http://www.parts-express.com/images/item_standard/264-316_s.jpg (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=264-316)http://www.parts-express.com/images/item_large/264-316_L.jpg

4313B

08-04-2009, 07:09 PM

the 2123H could work / though the 2122H doesn't quite have the numbers ( from what I calculate, to keep up to a 2441 )Both the 2122H and 2123H work fine with the 2421/2441 and 2425/2445. :yes:

Woody Banks

08-04-2009, 07:41 PM

You may want to consider a vertical design and shoot for a smaller footprint than the 4355. Check out the PROJECT MAY for example.
I used the 4355 plans and incorporated the Smith horn with a pair of 2441's.
The only driver that is not standard is the 12" mid woofer. I decided to use the ME120HS instead of the 2202 for several reasons. The crossovers were built using the design posted by Giskard.
These monsters have been setting collecting dust for the past year and a half. I tried a couple of days ago to lift them up onto a pedestal in order to match a window seat. They were way too heavy for two people to handle. The large wooden horns and pile of heavy drivers added up to a ludicrous weight.
I finally powered them up last night for the first time but discovered that my ebay Ashly crossover is not functioning. I am currently running the top halves on a small Bryston amp and find the results very pleasing.
The costs to put these together add up very quickly. To replace the drivers, horns and crossovers would cost $3600~$4000.
Good luck on the project!

Woody

cooky1257

08-05-2009, 01:12 AM

Excellent questions.

I would certianly like to pursue a DIY project that has already proven sucessful.
I unfortunately do not have testing equipment. I know this does not mean a whole lot, but if I have general plans or guidelines (enclosure volume, port lenght, etc.) - I can certainly do the construction.

I was really hoping member can share their experience with the aforemetioned equipment - and suggest which way has proven sucessful results.

I have someone interest in purchasing my 2395s - If I decide to sell to him, he is willing to sell me the following gear: 2 pairs (4 woofers) of 2235 (freshly reconed) + a pair of 2405 + smith horns + potentially 2122H (<-for which he is asking an arm and a leg). Ofcouse, I would also be handing over some cash in addition to my 2395 as well.

If I go forward with the above transaction, I will have the following components at my leasure:

1 - pair smith horns
2 - pairs 2441 drivers
2 - paris 2235H driver
1 - pari 2405 (alino)
1 - pair of 2404H
1 - pair of 2122H drivers

(hopefully that is).

Hi see my avatar?
300L box; 2x2235,1x2441,1 x2397, 1x2405,1x3106 xover-pretty darn good imo!
Cooky

hjames

08-05-2009, 02:44 AM

Excellent questions.
I have someone interest in purchasing my 2395s -

If I go forward with the above transaction, I will have the following components at my leasure:

1 - pair smith horns
2 - pairs 2441 drivers
2 - paris 2235H driver
1 - pari 2405 (alnico)
1 - pair of 2404H
1 - pair of 2122H drivers

(hopefully that is).

Okay, the obvious choice is the 4343/4344 4-way JBL Monitors (with current recommended replacement parts). They consist of

2235H
2122H
2425H
2405H

You have Alnico version of the 2405 slot tweeter, and 2 inch mid horn 2441 (and smith horns!)
instead of the original 2425 (with 2307 horn), but you are darned close if you want to go that route ...

dkalsi

08-05-2009, 05:54 AM

dkalsi

08-05-2009, 05:55 AM

Hi see my avatar?
300L box; 2x2235,1x2441,1 x2397, 1x2405,1x3106 xover-pretty darn good imo!
Cooky

Can you please specify how low are you crossing the 2441+2397?

Do you feel that you need a mid-bass driver?

hjames

08-05-2009, 05:59 AM

Guys, quick question:
What do you think is a fair price for the following (Feel free to give ranges). I tried guessing)

2 - Pairs of 2235H ($450/pair??)
1 - Pair of 2122H ($450??)
1 - Pair of 2405 ($300??)
1 - Pair of Smith Horns ($380??) - based on last pair sold on e-bay with adapters)

I paid $500 last year for a pair of 2123 cores reconed for me as 2122s ...
The real question for these speakers is condition - if they are just old drivers laying around,
their value is much less than freshly reconed or rediaphramed (JBL parts only, please!)

Are the Smith horns actual JBL model 2397 in clean shape with 2" adapters?

cooky1257

08-05-2009, 06:14 AM

Can you please specify how low are you crossing the 2441+2397?

Do you feel that you need a mid-bass driver?

Hi, the design is based on the Westlake TM1, xover is 2nd order @ 800 and 8,500hz. The 4350 is legendary and uses a mid to great effect and is better than the TM1 in this regard.

dkalsi

08-05-2009, 07:13 AM

I paid $500 last year for a pair of 2123 cores reconed for me as 2122s ...
The real question for these speakers is condition - if they are just old drivers laying around,
their value is much less than freshly reconed or rediaphramed (JBL parts only, please!)

Are the Smith horns actual JBL model 2397 in clean shape with 2" adapters?

The 2122 would be reconed is the seller is able to bye the recones from JBL - He mentioned that he is not 100% sure that JBL would still have them even though they are listed on their parts website.

hjames

08-05-2009, 07:27 AM

The 2122 would be reconed if the seller is able to buy the recones from JBL - He mentioned that he is not 100% sure that JBL would still have them even though they are listed on their parts website.

its up to you, but you might want to just buy them as cheap cores from him and find a shop to recone them yourself ... to be sure you get JBL parts done right.

I wouldn't know if the seller is qualified to do the recone job himself, but JBL only sells those parts to authorized JBL service shops ...

hjames

08-05-2009, 07:33 AM

On another tangent - I own L200s rebuilt into 3ways (sort-of 4333 clones)
with the 3133 crossovers, 2234 woofers (2235s but without the mass ring - its just what I had at the time) 2405 slots and 2420 1 inch drivers on 2397 smith horns - I REALLY like the sound of them for most anything - I suspect they're kind of like Cookys' but with just one woofer and the smaller horn driver.

If you want to bring your 2441 drivers over, my smith horns are external and we could swap your drivers in, and you can have a listen to the 2234/2441-smiths/2405 combo and see what that 3-way sounds like.

You may decide that's a nice mix and that it's all you need ...

I'm in Fairfax, VA - not too far from you ...
Just sent me a PM if you want to go further down that path ...

bigyank

08-05-2009, 08:08 AM

Heather looking good! Does the beanie baby double as a sound deadener? :applaud:

Yank

dkalsi

08-05-2009, 11:52 AM

Heather,

We should definitely get together sometime. I will shoot you a PM. Once a listen to your system - I would get an idea of what the end results might sound like if I pursue the various options above.

Thanks for the offer.

jerry_rig

08-05-2009, 12:22 PM

Okay, the obvious choice is the 4343/4344 4-way JBL Monitors (with current recommended replacement parts). They consist of

2235H
2122H
2425H
2405H

You have Alnico version of the 2405 slot tweeter, and 2 inch mid horn 2441 (and smith horns!)
instead of the original 2425 (with 2307 horn), but you are darned close if you want to go that route ...

Which basically gets you my custom 4-way setup, except Im using 2441 drivers and alnico 2405s:

dkalsi

08-06-2009, 05:10 AM

Hi all,

(I'm still collecting parts).

I wanted to find out if I should be looking for 2405H? or 2405? - I understand one is alino and the other ferrite - but am curious if people find one sounds better than the other?

Thanks,
D

4313B

08-06-2009, 07:05 AM

I wanted to find out if I should be looking for 2405H? or 2405? - I understand one is alino and the other ferrite - but am curious if people find one sounds better than the other?The 2405 is smaller in diameter and might be preferred because of that fact. The 2405 and 2405H technically sound the same. There is more variation model to model than ferrite versus alnico.

hjames

08-06-2009, 07:18 AM

Its not Alino - its AlNiCo - for technical info,
check out this thread for all the specifics!

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4031

dkalsi

08-06-2009, 08:10 AM

Its not Alino - its AlNiCo - for technical info,
check out this thread for all the specifics!

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4031

Yikes - my mistake.
I have an opportunity to purchase a piar of 2405 in really good condition but they are 16 ohms. Should I be looking for a pair that is 8ohms instead (i'm guessing this wil all depend eventually on the direction I head in). I will check when I go home, but I believe both pairs of 2441 that I own are 16ohms as well.

Any thoughts on what I should be looking out for (16 vs 8).

4313B

08-06-2009, 08:23 AM

They are all the same impedance regardless of what is printed on the back. I've posted this numerous times along with the various diaphragms.

075/2402, 076/2403, 2404, 077/2405 (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=23869)

Because this topic comes up ALL the time I finally asked Greg to put it to bed once and for all...

All three diaphragm kits D8R075, D8R076, and D16R2405 use the same voice coil part number.

dkalsi

08-07-2009, 09:41 PM

Update: Trying to work out a deal on a pair of 2405 - hopefully I should have them by next week.

I wanted to find out whether people would recommend going with a single 2245H woofer or dual 2235H woofer. I ask be cause substantial savings could be had buy purchasing 1 pair ov 2245s vs 2 pairs of 2235H. - Would I get similar performace?

Any thoughts - I would imagin I would need these to cover from 30hz-250hz?

4313B

08-08-2009, 06:35 AM

2245H

It's about a dB less efficient than dual 2235H's.

Dual woofers can be very nice and if you want to go with them you might think about dual 2234H's in a 4435-type arrangement instead of dual 2235H's.

Earl K

08-08-2009, 06:47 AM

I wanted to find out whether people would recommend going with a single 2245H woofer or dual 2235H woofer. I ask be cause substantial savings could be had buy purchasing 1 pair ov 2245s vs 2 pairs of 2235H. - Would I get similar performace?

- Respectfully suggest that you read 4313B(s)' thread called "9.0 cubic feet tuned to 30 Hz" (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4845&highlight=2245h)

- Then use the "advanced search" option ( using 4313B as the author ) / while inputting "2235H & 2245H" as the text that you wish to find .

- You'll see that there's plenty of reading on this subject ( & yes, the 2245H usually comes out first with most LHF members ).

>< cheers :)

dkalsi

08-10-2009, 07:15 AM

- Respectfully suggest that you read 4313B(s)' thread called "9.0 cubic feet tuned to 30 Hz" (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4845&highlight=2245h)

- Then use the "advanced search" option ( using 4313B as the author ) / while inputting "2235H & 2245H" as the text that you wish to find .

- You'll see that there's plenty of reading on this subject ( & yes, the 2245H usually comes out first with most LHF members ).

>< cheers :)

Update,

I was successfully able to purchase a mint pair of 2405 (alinico) tweeters a fair price (should have them by Wednesday).

In regards to the 2245H vs dual 2235, the main issue is the price difference. It appears that daul 2235 would cost me about $1000 (thats for 2 pairs).

The 2245H (I had recently purchased one for $130 but needs to be refoamed <-the previous owner did not do the prettiest of jobs <-its fully functional, but not as neat as I would like).

Reconed 2245H sell on e-bay for $275 all day <- these are not factory recones but "just as good" - I understand the with the 2235H aftermarket recone kits miss a ring or some sorts (that helps weigh down the cone). Is there such a concern with the 2245 after market kits?

The thing is that I can simply buy another 2245H for $275 (only at your guys recommendation) and then I will collectively have a pair (for a total cost of $130+$275 = $405).

Or I can hunt for a two pair of 2235H which would propbably cost close to $1000.

What do you guys think? Should I go for a pair or 2245H with total cost of $405 or should I go for a two pairs of 2235H for $1000. Those who have experienced both - is $600 worth the difference?

Thanks

hjames

08-10-2009, 08:19 AM

Update,

Or I can hunt for a two pair of 2235H which would propbably cost close to $1000.

What do you guys think? Should I go for a pair or 2245H with total cost of $405 or should I go for a two pairs of 2235H for $1000. Those who have experienced both - is $600 worth the difference?

Thanks

Do you really need dual 2235s - 4 of them?
Why not do your mains with a single pair of 2235s and have sub with the 2245 for that low bottom range?

4313B

08-10-2009, 08:35 AM

What do you guys think? Should I go for a pair or 2245H with total cost of $405 or should I go for a two pairs of 2235H for $1000. Those who have experienced both - is $600 worth the difference?I never really thought about it in monetary terms but I guess I would have to say no, it isn't worth a $600 difference. I can't imagine you not being satisfied with the 2245H's.

But then again, dual woofers are a very big selling point in certain parts of the world...

Reconed 2245H sell on e-bay for $275 all day <- these are not factory recones but "just as good" - I understand the with the 2235H aftermarket recone kits miss a ring or some sorts (that helps weigh down the cone). Is there such a concern with the 2245 after market kits? I personally don't do aftermarket kits in JBL cores so this information is meaningless to me. To me it is completely pointless to put non-JBL software into JBL hardware. Buy a Radio Shack driver instead, they're cheaper to eff around with.

Earl K

08-10-2009, 08:45 AM

Reconed 2245H sell on e-bay for $275 all day <- these are not factory recones but "just as good" - I understand the with the 2235H aftermarket recone kits miss a ring or some sorts (that helps weigh down the cone).

Is there such a concern with the 2245 after market kits?

- Aftermarket kits are virtually certain to not give the correct Ts parameters, notably ; BL, Mms, Re, etc. .

BL = a measure of the motor strength
Mms = a measure of the mass ( weight ) being moved by the motor
Re = is important because the first two are ( eventually ) referenced against its' value .

- These Ts values represent the "recipe" that makes a JBL transducer a "JBL" / or an Altec for that matter ( which uses a quite different recipe of values ) .

- Also ( FWIW ), once you've flagged yourself as a user of aftermarket products / you've guaranteed that the resale value of your castoffs will be heavily discounted if not outright dismissed as being worthless by those in the know ( & expanding this knowledge "of those in the know " into the larger DIY user base is one of this websites missions / at least, in my world ;) ) .

- ie; Don't go there !
>< cheers :)

dkalsi

08-10-2009, 08:56 AM

- ie; Don't go there !
>< cheers :)

Earl K and 4313B,

Duly noted - no aftermarket kits for me - trust me - I would hate to go through the hassel pursuing a DIY project only to find out the certain components will not be performing to spec - that alone will drive me crazy.

Thanks

dkalsi

08-10-2009, 04:10 PM

dkalsi

08-10-2009, 06:51 PM

For one thing, I know it is going to be nearly impossible to find a 2-pairs of 2235Hs, hence could someone quickly list for me all the drivers that can be reconed to be extactly 2235H?

From what I have found so far, i know the 2225 can be reconed to the 2235H, any others?

This way I could lookout for blown woofers (collect 4) and recone all four to be 2235.

Thanks in advance

(in the mean time I will keep a lookout for another 2245H)

Nevermind on the question about which baskets I can use for the 2235H, based on my search, the following can be used:

D130
K130
K140
136
2135
2205
2225
2231
2235

(someone correct me if I am wrong)

dkalsi

08-11-2009, 06:00 AM

Anyone here has experience with the TAD Tm-1201 ?

(I will obviously keep a look out for 2122H)

If I was to purchase 2123 and have them reconed to 2122H - it would cost about $500.

The TAD TM-1201 woofer can be had for about $450-$550 all day on the used market.

Given the specs below - any opinion whether or not I should consider it:
TM-1201 / TM-1201H SPECIFICATIONS Voice coil impedance: (TM-1201 - 8 ohms)/(TM-1201H - 16 ohms). Lowest resonance frequency (fo): 52Hz. Recommended frequency range: 200 - 3,000Hz. Rated input power: 150 watts. Maximum input power: 300 watts. Sound pressure level: 100dB/W (1m). Equivalent mass (infinite baffle): 2.1 oz/60g. Qo: 0.16(fo = 52Hz). Total magnetic flux: 324,000 maxwells. Magnetic flux density: 14,500 gauss. Baffle opening: 10-7/8 inches/276mm. Mounting dimensions: 11-9/16 inches/293mm (6 holes). Weight: 24 lbs. 4 oz./11kg. Outer dimensions (diameter x depth): 12-1/2 x 4-5/16 inches/318 x 110mm.

Mr. Widget

08-11-2009, 10:30 AM

If I was to purchase 2123 and have them reconed to 2122H - it would cost about $500.

The TAD TM-1201 woofer can be had for about $450-$550 all day on the used market. If you can have freshly reconed 2122Hs for the same price as a pair of used TAD PA speakers, why would you even consider the TADs?

Then again, what is your design? Do you even need a midbass driver?

Widget

dkalsi

08-11-2009, 11:28 AM

If you can have freshly reconed 2122Hs for the same price as a pair of used TAD PA speakers, why would you even consider the TADs?

Then again, what is your design? Do you even need a midbass driver?

Widget

Widget - I agree - its just 2122H is hard to find. I need to find baskets. I would personally hate to buy a nice pair of 2123H and have them reconed - hence, the reason why I am searching for baskets.

In terms of design, i believe I have the following set in stone:

Tweeters - JBL 2405
Mid-High - JBL 2441 + JBL 2397
Mid-Bass - JBL 2122H (if I can find a pair).
Bass - still searching

Need help deciding what to do for bass region - wheter to go with single 15" 2235H, dual 2235H, single 2245H, or One - 2235H + One 2245H.

4313B

08-11-2009, 11:44 AM

Widget - I agree - its just 2122H is hard to find. I need to find baskets. I would personally hate to buy a nice pair of 2123H and have them reconed - hence, the reason why I am searching for baskets.
Use 2123H's if you have to. They are ~ 3 dB more efficient and don't have nearly the bottom end that the 2122H's have but you only need to get them down to ~ 300 Hz anyway.

hjames

08-11-2009, 11:49 AM

really, I have 4 ways and 3 ways with similar drivers...

You should come listen before you set anything in stone ...

our biamped 4341s have

2235
2122
2425/2307
2405
(plus a B380-2235 sub for movies/TV)

our "custom" L200/3-ways have

2234
2420/2397
2405

Its actually surprising how good the 3 ways sound ...

And if you are home brewing a system, and custom crossovers,
the less drivers, the easier it is to get them to play well together.

Widget - I agree - its just 2122H is hard to find. I need to find baskets. I would personally hate to buy a nice pair of 2123H and have them reconed - hence, the reason why I am searching for baskets.

In terms of design, i believe I have the following set in stone:

Tweeters - JBL 2405
Mid-High - JBL 2441 + JBL 2397
Mid-Bass - JBL 2122H (if I can find a pair).
Bass - still searching

Need help deciding what to do for bass region - wheter to go with single 15" 2235H, dual 2235H, single 2245H, or One - 2235H + One 2245H.

dkalsi

08-11-2009, 12:46 PM

Heather -you have a PM.

Thanks
D

dkalsi

08-12-2009, 09:09 PM

Quick question,

A buddy of mine in New Jersery is willing to sell me a pair of 2241H for $550 (I will need to get more details regarding whether or not they are all original).

But before I inquire any further - wanted to find out if the JBL 2241H could be used in this application (i.e. JBL 4345 type configurations)

4313B

08-13-2009, 05:55 AM

2245 (red) versus 2241 (yellow) in 4345 box:

dkalsi

08-18-2009, 10:11 AM

Update:

I received my MINT (at least cosmetically) JBL 2405 in the mail today.

I have a blown JBL 2245H on the way from e-bay.

I was able to find plans for the JBL 4345 on line. I am thinking about going forward with that design.

I was thinking maybe I can replace 2421B+2307 combo with 2441 driver+Selenium HL14-50 2" Exponential Horn (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=264-316)

What I also plan to do is build a thin profile seperate cabinet above the 4345 clone and include in it the 2441+2397 combo (given the fact that I currently have 2 pairs of 2441 on hand).

I can certainly modify the cabinet of the 4345 clone to include the 2397 as oppose to the Selenium HL14-50 horn - but I don't think it will look nearly as good.

More thoughts + opinions?

Thanks
D

hjames

08-18-2009, 10:23 AM

I'd build the 4345 as a complete clone, and just put a blank plate over the hole where the 2307 horn would go. Can't hurt, and if you ever sell, or want to try the original design, the hole is already there. Won't take any appreciable work if you do it in the initial build.

Put the duck lips on top - with a pair of front to back 1x3s on a baseplate
and just rest that arrangement on top of the main box.
ala Jerry_rig's speakers here - http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=24596

Update:

I was able to find plans for the JBL 4345 on line. I am thinking about going forward with that design.

I was thinking maybe I can replace 2421B+2307 combo with 2441 driver+Selenium HL14-50 2" Exponential Horn (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=264-316)

What I also plan to do is build a thin profile seperate cabinet above the 4345 clone and include in it the 2441+2397 combo (given the fact that I currently have 2 pairs of 2441 on hand).

I can certainly modify the cabinet of the 4345 clone to include the 2397 as oppose to the Selenium HL14-50 horn - but I don't think it will look nearly as good.

More thoughts + opinions?

Thanks
D

Mr. Widget

08-18-2009, 10:27 AM

I can certainly modify the cabinet of the 4345 clone to include the 2397 as oppose to the Selenium HL14-50 horn - but I don't think it will look nearly as good.

More thoughts + opinions? If your woodworking skills are good and you plan on doing a fine veneer job on the cabinets, I would build them completely stock as Ms James suggests and use the 2311 horn... you will likely have to make a very minor adjustment to the interior of the 2212 doghouse, but that is fine. I would then plug the 2311 hole with a blanking plate and use your 2397 and 2441 on top. This will do two things.

First, it will allow you to compare a near stock 4345, especially if you ever pop in a 2307 (bolts right into the 2311 hole) and 2420/1/5/6, and a Smith horn variant. Secondly, if you change your mind down the road, or fall into a pile of money and buy those Everest IIs, you can easily sell the 4345 clones.

Widget

dkalsi

08-19-2009, 09:07 AM

Update -
Received my blowed 2245H from e-bay (total cost $46 including shipping - not bad) - its grey in color.

That sucker is unbelievably heavy.

I have been reading a lot about the 4345 in the "The 4345 Club" thread.

There was an interesting post by Greg T on the second page -

After reading his post - I feel like I should try incorporate some of the things he mentioned - in other words, I many not do an exact clone of the 4345.

I have a lot more reading to do (especially in that thread), I will try to draw what I currently have in mind within the next day or two.

hjames

08-19-2009, 07:07 PM

More info to refresh the thread ...

Link to spec sheet for the 2397 Smith horns themselves
http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/specs/pro-comp/2397.htm

JBL Cinetron IV system which had integrated 2397 horn - (Engineering image below)
See Don McRitchie's thread - http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=111188&highlight=cinetron#post111188

http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=15597&stc=1&d=1147139260

Jerry_rig's custom 4 ways ...

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=41096&stc=1&d=1249500050

Mr. Widget

08-19-2009, 11:19 PM

Jerry_rig's custom 4 ways ...
Kind of have a retro mad scientist aesthetic... I could see them in mahogany with some turned brass bits here and there with cloth covered wires connecting the drivers and ample amounts of black wrinkle finish paint... sort of "City of Lost Children" meets Thomas Edison. :bouncy:

I do get carried away at times.

Widget

jerry_rig

08-20-2009, 01:17 PM

Ah, cool idea. Retro monsters: It's alive! They do look better with the grills on:

dkalsi

08-20-2009, 05:39 PM

Has anyone here incorporated most (if not all) the changes GT mentioned in the "The 4345 Club" thread?

I would like to incorporate as much of his suggestions as possible. I don't know exactly how to address his comments about size. He mentioned that the 2245H could use a bigger space to perform optimaly - maybe I can increase the depth of the speaker without significatly changing the way the 4345 looks.

Additionally, is there a crossover design that included the his two main points:
1) Bi-amp run the 2245 seperately
2) Have a bypass by which you can choose to directly run the 2405 of a T-amp

Beyond GT's comments on page 2 of the "4345 Club" thread - sorry to say, there isn't much more useful information in that thread.

Thanks

Robh3606

08-20-2009, 06:00 PM

dkalsi

08-20-2009, 06:16 PM

Hello dkalsi

I have their little brother 4344's. They were built from the beginning with the intent of Bi-amping them. So no bi-amp switch. I use a DX-1 as my active crossover. Changed the baffle to have the woofer mid and compression driver in line and have aquaplased 2425's in them. Ports and controls on the back to have a nice clean baffle for the 2122.

They are one of my favorite speakers, I always seem to come back to them. The bi-amping is worth the effort and I think the aquaplased 2425 smooths them out a bit and makes them sound better.

Rob:)

Rob,

I followed you construction thread here at the forums - excellent build.

I am still debating whether or not I want to stay true to the 4345 look.

I absolutely love what member 4313B with the 2311+2445 driver (with the stepped enclosure for the 2122H). I want to pursue a similar approach.

Based on the information I have found thus far, I will definitely go the bi-amped way.

What I wanted to know if people have done the other two mods (i.e. larger enclosure for the 2245H and running the 2405 straigth off the t-amp).

Mr. Widget

08-20-2009, 06:54 PM

What I wanted to know if people have done the other two mods (i.e. larger enclosure for the 2245H and running the 2405 straigth off the t-amp).The larger enclosure recommendation would require only a slightly deeper cabinet to achieve so that shouldn't be much of a problem... as for the T amp... you can do that quite easily once you've completed the project by simply building in an auxiliary input on the rear as you would for the bi-ampped 2245.

Widget

dkalsi

08-20-2009, 07:41 PM

The larger enclosure recommendation would require only a slightly deeper cabinet to achieve so that shouldn't be much of a problem... as for the T amp... you can do that quite easily once you've completed the project by simply building in an auxiliary input on the rear as you would for the bi-ampped 2245.

Widget

That is exactly what I had in mind. I too was thinking about making the enclosure deeper, just how much more deeper --> its not that clear. BTW - I just went back to GT's post and I couldn't locate the part where he mentioned that the 2245H could benefit from a larger enclosure -- maybe I read it somewhere else?

I like your recommendation for the 2405 - its simply and will do the trick.

BMWCCA

08-20-2009, 09:25 PM

I too was thinking about making the enclosure deeper, just how much more deeper --> its not that clear. BTW - I just went back to GT's post and I couldn't locate the part where he mentioned that the 2245H could benefit from a larger enclosure -- maybe I read it somewhere else?

This:
Originally Posted by gtimbers
I can't belive all the interest in this 30 year old system. It was never very successful during its life time primarily due to its size. Most people would get something smaller. It also had a reputation for less than detailed bass, which I have always thought was due to the enclosure not being quite large enough.and this:
I notice from many of the pictures that the system is elevated on blocks. It is very good to get the 2245 up off of the floor to minimize midbass fatness.

pos

08-20-2009, 11:56 PM

2) Have a bypass by which you can choose to directly run the 2405 of a T-amp

Hi dkalsi

I am not sure the t-amp is the best candidate for this. Its noise floor is too high for such a high sensitivity driver.
I used to use one of the original sonic impact t-amps on 2407s and 2406s and the hiss was really annoying. Plus it emitted a pop when switched on...
If you plan to run the 2405 directly from the amp as GT suggest then you also have to check the DC offset of the amp. It can be quite high on some of these chip amp if they do not have protection caps on the output.

Another interesting approach could be that one:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1895727#post1895727
Looks promising!

If you run the 2405 with a separate amp then you might as well put it directly behind the driver with the shortest possible cable to avoid any inductance effect that would act as a low pass filter (do a search on Zilch Ethernet cable experiments and measurement on these forums).

That is a really nice project you have here! The 2397 seems like a logical complement with its huge horizontal dispersion, similar to the 2307+lens.

4313B

08-21-2009, 06:43 AM

That is exactly what I had in mind. I too was thinking about making the enclosure deeper, just how much more deeper --> its not that clear.I didn't bother. 10 cubic feet is fine for me.

If I remember correctly 14 to 15 cubic feet is about maximum for that driver.

BMWCCA

08-21-2009, 07:50 AM

I too was thinking about making the enclosure deeper
And I'm not worrying about it with my 4345s, at least until I hear something that performs better. :D

hjames

08-21-2009, 08:00 AM

And I'm not worrying about it with my 4345s, at least until I hear something that performs better. :D

Don't think anyone locally has offered him a listening session with a pair of original or clone 4345s -
I really think he needs to hear what they can do in stock form ...
with just the "standard" biAmping they are 'sposed to be impressive.

Sure seems to be a lot of satisfied 4345 owners on the site -

hey - where'd that quote go from G err, 4313Bee

dkalsi

08-21-2009, 10:42 AM

Hi dkalsi

I am not sure the t-amp is the best candidate for this. Its noise floor is too high for such a high sensitivity driver.
I used to use one of the original sonic impact t-amps on 2407s and 2406s and the hiss was really annoying. Plus it emitted a pop when switched on...
If you plan to run the 2405 directly from the amp as GT suggest then you also have to check the DC offset of the amp. It can be quite high on some of these chip amp if they do not have protection caps on the output.
.

Ok - I will look into this. I was planning on using the Trend 10.1 - but I will for the DC offset issue.

dkalsi

08-24-2009, 08:40 AM

Quick question,
When building the enclosure, how do you guys (those who have build the 4345) construct the frame around the grill (not the grill it self), but the molding (for lack of a better work) on the front of the speakers.

Mr. Widget

08-24-2009, 09:21 AM

Member saeman has posted detailed construction plans for some of his 43XX projects which included the grille frames... if you do some searches you should be able to find them.

I just reread your query... you are actually interested in the front edge molding... he has posted about that as well.

Widget

Robh3606

08-24-2009, 10:09 AM

Here are the plans

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=11856

Rob:)

dkalsi

08-24-2009, 11:06 AM

Here are the plans

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=11856

Rob:)

Hey Rob,

Thanks for the link to the plans. I was able to locate them earlier but found no guidance regarding the molding on the face of the speakers. Thats what I was hoping to find.

I will search the forums once again to locate the tread that Mr. Widget alluded to.

grumpy

08-24-2009, 12:22 PM

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=314

Start around post #105... that may be what you're after. (?)

Mr. Widget

08-24-2009, 12:29 PM

Thanks Grumpy... post 106 has a great drawing showing the detail.

Widget

dkalsi

08-26-2009, 01:12 PM

dkalsi

08-27-2009, 09:46 AM

4313B

08-27-2009, 10:57 AM

1 - pair of 2245H baskets sent in for recone to authorized local JBL dealer
1 - pair of 2123H baskets sent in for 2122H recone to authorized local JBL dealer

I tell you all - these happen to be some of the most expensive drivers to recone. What gives???In the scheme of things they are quite inexpensive and the bang for the buck is astounding. I personally find it incredible that we are still able to service these now ancient transducers.

macaroonie

08-27-2009, 12:03 PM

All,

I am planning on using 1" MDF for the construction of th 4345. Per review of most of the 4345 constructions threads on the forums, everyone seems to use 3/4" Baltic Birch ply for the baffle.

I wanted to ask whether it would be a problem using the 1" MDF for the baffle as oppose to the Baltic Birch. Would there be a problem painting the MDF?

Please share your thoughts.

My views (and others ) on MDF are documented in the posts here. Yes it is good acoustically and yes it is easy to machine but the dust is just horrid and bad for you also. Baltic ply is a joy to work with and is as near to MDF in general but without the cons.
You will thank me for this advice , been there done that !

JeffW

08-27-2009, 12:06 PM

I don't know what you paid for your 2245 baskets, but even with the ~$250 cone kit + labor + shipping I bet it's a lot cheaper than buying a NIB 2242H at full retail.

4313B

08-27-2009, 12:49 PM

My views (and others ) on MDF are documented in the posts here. Yes it is good acoustically and yes it is easy to machine but the dust is just horrid and bad for you also.Here are my MDF monstrosities. Dust management and a mask are absolutely mandatory when working with this junk!

Someday I might actually finish them. :rotfl:

The goal is to at least have the boxes finished before it gets too cold to work in the detached garage. They have a long wait for networks since I am currently backlogged on building those.

The bottom brace in the top photo is just sitting in there and is never actually implemented since the base provides all the necessary bracing. I also removed all the "select pine" stickers after the photo was taken. :p

That isn't some new kind of aquaplas on the back of the 2245H, the cone is missing. I was told that it wouldn't affect the sound but will probably recone it anyway someday ;).

I snapped the three bottom photos minutes ago.

I really like the textured paint (http://www.rustoleum.com/CBGProduct.asp?pid=79) Saeman suggested I try as a base coat. The baffles will be the usual blue and the back and base will be black. The ten mil veneer is from everyone's favorite veneer place - Walnut - Flat Cut (http://oakwoodveneer.com/shop/shop4_10_mapz.html)

boputnam

08-27-2009, 01:00 PM

Here are my MDF monstrosities. Beauties. Makes me hungry just looking at them...

That isn't some new kind of aquaplas on the back of the 2245H, the cone is missing. Darn - I thought we had a new invisible aquaplassed cone to talk about! :rotfl:

Hey - is that a teeny nick I see in the veneer? :shock: ;)

4313B

08-27-2009, 01:15 PM

Beauties. Makes me hungry just looking at them...You already have some!
Hey - is that a teeny nick I see in the veneer? :shock: ;)I used nickbegone (aka another $100 sheet of veneer) on it and it disappeared. :dont-know Cool eh? ;)

boputnam

08-27-2009, 01:32 PM

I used nickbegone (aka another $100 sheet of veneer) on it and it disappeared. :dont-know Cool eh? ;):applaud:

pos

08-27-2009, 02:41 PM

whao, they look really nice!
I am sure you will end up with one of the nicest 4345 clone around!
2245, 2123, 2445, H94, 2405, right?

4313B

08-28-2009, 06:37 AM

2245, 2123, 2445, H94, 2405, right?Yes, along with the now SOP Timbers Tweaks. :yes:

Greg whipped up an active filter schematic that he suggested I build and try out in place of a DX-1 so I'll probably order all those parts in the next few months. Hopefully I can get that built before the end of the year. My current thought is to just empty out a 5234A or 5235 and build the new filter in that chassis.

pos

08-28-2009, 08:17 AM

as soon as I get my 2245 from Rich I will try something similar, except with 2435-SL on 2397 and 076.

Concerning your active network, is it just for the 2245/2123 crossover or also for the other ways?

dkalsi

08-28-2009, 04:06 PM

41473

Guys,
I am still trying to figure out how one is to construct the lip. In the initial construction, is it best to:
1) Recess the baffle,
2) Let the sides+top+bottom come to the front
3) Route to make the desired angle, and
4) Then veneer over the angle using the same sheet used to veneer the adjacent side?

Or is it best to flush mount the baffle and find solid walnut molding to match the veener? (see below)

41474

Mr. Widget

08-28-2009, 06:11 PM

I'd make the molding as drawn up by saeman and miter and glue it to the front of your boxes. Then, veneer over the boxes and trim at the beveled edge of the molding. See drawing below... the veneer is shown over scale in red.

If you are using pre-veneered plywood, particle board, or MDF then do it as suggested by Rick... butt the molding onto the front edge of the 1" P.B Plus Veneer. Doing it this way, your fit up has to be a bit better as sanding the edge of the molding where it is supposed to be flush with the veneered side will be rather tricky.

Widget
.

dkalsi

08-28-2009, 10:18 PM

Thanks Widget,
I think I will go forward with Saeman's method (that appears to be little easiers).

Additionally, for those who have constructed the 4345, has anyone felt that the speaker needs more bracing than what is included in the original design? I have only built subwoofers in the past and am use to heavily bracing the enclosure.

Thanks,
D

4313B

08-29-2009, 08:47 AM

Additionally, for those who have constructed the 4345, has anyone felt that the speaker needs more bracing than what is included in the original design?I always use more bracing than stock. It works out well.

dkalsi

08-31-2009, 08:20 AM

All,
Could someone suggest best place to order veneer (I had oakwoodveneer.com in mind). Additionally, would people agree that using paperbacked veneer + HeatLock Iron-on veneer glue be the easiest method to apply the veneer.

I know I am getting ahead of myself but I want to make sure I have all necessities on hand once I start going.

Thanks,
Dhar

bigyank

08-31-2009, 08:44 AM

Here is a decent FAQ to visit:

http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/faq-veneering.htm

Good luck and post pics! :applaud:

Yank

Mr. Widget

08-31-2009, 08:45 AM

I have bought veneer from all over for more than 30 years... Oakwood has by far the highest quality/price ratio out there and their selection is excellent. Paper backed or veneer backed is by far the easiest to use. I will use a vacuum bag, veneer press, boards and clamps, or contact cement depending on the application. I've never used the iron on sheeting or the PVA iron on method... people seem to like the PVA method, but I hate to try something new when dealing with hundreds of dollars worth of stock.

Widget

4313B

08-31-2009, 08:52 AM

I've never used the iron on sheeting or the PVA iron on method... people seem to like the PVA method, but I hate to try something new when dealing with hundreds of dollars worth of stock.Surely you have scraps left laying around that you can experiment with...

Mr. Widget

08-31-2009, 08:55 AM

Surely you have scraps left laying around that you can experiment with...In the shop, in the attic, under tables being used as shims... :D

Good point, I'll add it to the to do list. :rotfl:

Widget

DavidF

08-31-2009, 09:18 PM

My views (and others ) on MDF are documented in the posts here. Yes it is good acoustically and yes it is easy to machine but the dust is just horrid and bad for you also. Baltic ply is a joy to work with and is as near to MDF in general but without the cons.
You will thank me for this advice , been there done that !

Agreed to all except possibly good acoustically. Can be mushy so it needs to be braced all to hell. Dust, oh yeah. My wife hates it as the only place I have to work in is the garage. More, it is terrible on bits and tools. Mostly for me it is easier to work with towards a certain finish effect. A good base for veneer.

Difficult to paint and very difficult to get a good glossy finish. The idea of 4313B with the speckled finish sounds like a very good idea.

Note the bends and great clean corners (thanks to Bondo). This is why I used MDF on this project.

41542

41543

41544
41545

dkalsi

09-15-2009, 07:10 AM

All,

Believe it or not - this thread is not yet dead. I have made some progress. I am done cutting 80% of material needed for this construction. Baffles are complete and the dog house is mounted.

Additoinally - got a call from my local JBL dealer that my pair of 2245H and 2122H (all new cones) are ready for pick up.

I should be receiving the 2397 horns today.

I have a quick question - I am trying to collect parts for the crossover and per the schematics posted by Giskard, one of the inductors is: 18 gauge 0.6 Mh and 0.53Ohm
I can't seem to located that inductor anywhere - could someone please suggest where I should be looking.

And lastly - I still can't decide whether to go with L-pads or not. I have read a few posts here but wanted to get more opinions in context of the l-pads being used with the 2441s.

Thanks,
D

4313B

09-15-2009, 07:29 AM

I should be receiving the 2397 horns today.

I have a quick question - I am trying to collect parts for the crossover and per the schematics posted by Giskard, one of the inductors is: 18 gauge 0.6 Mh and 0.53Ohm
I can't seem to located that inductor anywhere - could someone please suggest where I should be looking.I wouldn't worry too much about it since that network probably wouldn't be optimal for a 2397 anyway.
And lastly - I still can't decide whether to go with L-pads or not. I have read a few posts here but wanted to get more opinions in context of the l-pads being used with the 2441s.Start with the L-Pads, get everything dialed in, and then replace the L-Pads with fixed resistor pads.

dkalsi

09-15-2009, 08:02 AM

I wouldn't worry too much about it since that network probably wouldn't be optimal for a 2397 anyway.

Hey Giskard,

Are you suggesting that I not include any inductor as a replacement for the one mentioned in the schematics?

Thanks,
D

4313B

09-15-2009, 08:09 AM

Hey Giskard,

Are you suggesting that I not include any inductor as a replacement for the one mentioned in the schematics?

Thanks,
D:dont-know I don't know what schematic you are working off.
I do know that I never did any schematics for the 2397.

dkalsi

09-15-2009, 08:25 AM

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x205/dkalsi/v2.jpg
:dont-know I don't know what schematic you are working off.
I do know that I never did any schematics for the 2397.

Haha - sorry for not being clear - I am using the "Charged Coupled Crossover" schematics you had posted for the stock 4345.

For my build purposes, I was going to leave the opening for the 2420 in the baffle closed and set a 2397+2441 driver on top as a replacement for the mid-high.

I thought I could use the same crossover. I believe this is what Jerry (a fellow forum member) did (except he used a 2235 as oppose to 2245).

In the charged coupled crossover - using stock drivers - the schematics indicate a 18 gauge 0.6 Mh and 0.53Ohm inductor being used for the mid high.

I will try to post a picture of the schematics im using shortly.

Mr. Widget

09-15-2009, 08:34 AM

Hey Giskard,

Are you suggesting that I not include any inductor as a replacement for the one mentioned in the schematics?

Thanks,
DNo, he is saying that since the 2397 horn has different characteristics than the 2307, the exact values are less critical... not less critical per say, but since you don't have a network that has been optimized for a specific horn, driver, and physical placement, everything will be SLIGHTLY less optimal... audible? Maybe. Very audible? Maybe. It is hard to tell. Essentially the phase characteristics at the crossover point will be different due to path lengths and physical layout. Still, chances are that using his network will give you the desired results.

Realize that way back when in the early days when JBL designed the 43XX monitors none of today's computer modeling was available and the knowledge and theory that has since been developed simply didn't exist. That said, by trial and error, they did do some great work.

Just use any good quality 0.6mH coil you can find.

Widget

dkalsi

09-15-2009, 08:46 AM

Just use any 0.6mH coil you can find.

Widget

Even if it's resistance does not match that stated in the schematics? Unfortunatley, I just don't know enough about crossovers to determine how much of a material affect this will have.

Mr. Widget

09-15-2009, 09:02 AM

Even if it's resistance does not match that stated in the schematics? There are really only two values of an inductor... it's inductance and it's internal resistance. (OK, there are the issues of saturation, precision, mechanical quality, etc. etc.... but let's keep it real.) The internal resistance will have an effect on the network, but it is generally quite subtle. Most crossover schematics don't even spec the resistance.

As 4313B and I both stated, since your network isn't optimal don't sweat it. Build it and listen to it, if it sucks, and I really doubt it will, then fix it.

Widget

dkalsi

09-15-2009, 09:08 AM

As 4313B and I both stated, since your network isn't optimal don't sweat it. Build it and listen to it, if it sucks, and I really doubt it will, then fix it.
Widget

Got it! :)

Earl K

09-15-2009, 09:38 AM

Hi dkalsi,

- If you don't mind a bit of advice / do a mock up of the passive horn circuit using the standard capacitor topology ( non -CCed ).
- Then measure its acoustic performance with that horn/driver combo / then post the results here .

- Use as inexpensive poly-type ( mylar or polypropylene ) capacitors as you can find / you'll likely need to junk them anyway .

>< cheers :)

dkalsi

09-15-2009, 10:14 AM

Hi dkalsi,
- Use as inexpensive poly-type ( mylar or polypropylene ) capacitors as you can find / you'll likely need to junk them anyway .
>< cheers :)

Hey Earl,

Unfortuantely - I have no testing equipment :(

jcrobso

09-15-2009, 02:30 PM

dkalsi

09-18-2009, 07:31 AM

Quick question:

A fellow forum member has offered me a 2245H for a relatively cheap price. I already have three 2245h (two of which were reconed last week and the last one is all original).

Again, I am getting ahead or myself, but for little cost, I could create another box that would sit on top of the the 4345 I am currently building.

I currently have an Ashly Xr-2001 which has the potential to control four 2-way systems. It would be very easy for me to have the Ashly setup to sent 300hz to the two 2245H seperately (on each side of a stereo setup). Accordingly, this setup would require no additional crossover work to the passive crossover in the 4345.

My only concern is that is all this even worth it? - will the system sound too bass heavy? Based on my reading thus far here at the forums, people often give the 2245H a little boost using an active crossover when one is working with a bi-amped 4345 setup. Given the fact that 2245H is rated at 95db sentitivity, would using two 2245h would increase the sentivity to 98db (making it a little closer to the sensitivity of 2122H) and hence requiring no additional boost?

By moving to dual woofers (as oppose to using boost), would that end result be a more balanced sound in the bass spectrum?

Kind of like the Westlake Tower SM-1 setup:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x205/dkalsi/TOWERSM1.jpg

Mr. Widget

09-18-2009, 07:57 AM

I wouldn't go that route myself... but more importantly as you deviate from a known design, the need for experience and testing equipment goes up significantly.

I'd highly recommend you closely copy the 4345 and keep it simple.

Widget

dkalsi

09-30-2009, 07:41 AM

1) Should I install the fiberglass (stuffing) before I paint the baffle?
2) Which L-pads should I be ordering if I want to intall them in the cabinets (ie, like the original design).
3) Any recommendation for a good wood filler (hopefully one that is available at Home Depot / Lowes).

dkalsi

10-03-2009, 05:01 PM

Anyone,

As you all know, I am building a pair of 4345. One of Greg T's suggestion was to make the enclosure volume a little larger. Hence, I decided to increase the depth on the inside of the speaker from 16" (according to plans posted by Tecbot) to 18".

After subtracting the dog-house volume and the volume eaten up by the extensive braching, I am coming out with approximately 10.2 cubit feet of internal volume.

I was hoping someone could help be determine what modifications this would require to the port length (if any). According to Techbot's plans, the port length on the 4345 is 8.25" -->for my enclosure volume, could someone please help me determine what the appropriate port length with be?

Thanks,
D

pos

10-04-2009, 03:16 PM

dkalsi

10-04-2009, 03:53 PM

Using winisd beta, I get a tuning frequency of 29.5Hz for the original 4345 port in your 10.2cuft enclosure.
With a 9cuft enclosure (wich I believe is the volume of the original 4345? Please someone correct me if I'm wrong) I get a tuning frequency of 31.5Hz.
You would need 6.9" ports to get that same tuning in your enclosure.

With your calculation, what is the volume you get for the original 4345?

POS,

Thanks for posting - I too attempted to use WINisd for the first time today and am coming up with exactly the same numbers as you. I am very glad you posted because I was nervous about whether or not I entered the parameters for the 2245H correctly. Given the fact that we are getting similar number (if not exact) numbers - I feel a little bit better about the parameters I entered for the 2245H.

Based on drawing provided by Techbot, I calculated the 4345's internal volume as 9.14 cubic feet (net of volume occupied by the doghouse and bracing). My enclosure is closer to 10.20 cubic feet (net of volume occupied by the doghouse and bracing). So, just a little over 11.5% bigger.

I think I am going to cut ports for my project to about 8.0" - based on that lenght, the tuning frequecy for my build will be approximately 30.5hz. I just don't think it is going to be a night and day differece between 29hz tuning, 30hz tuning, or 31hz tuning.

But thanks once again for posting.

pos

10-04-2009, 11:09 PM

The figures I calculated in my previous post where only to get the exact same tuning frequency in the two boxes.
A bigger box needs a lower tuning frequency to achieve the same response, and you also get a lower extension.

So here are the curves of the 2245 in a 9.14 cuft enclosure tuned to 31.24Hz (ie with the original ports) in white and in a 10.20 cuft enclosure tuned to 29.9Hz in green (with you 8" ports).
I think 7.2" ports (~31Hz tuning) would mimic the original 4345 behavior better (second plot), but as you said the difference could be subtile.

GT is said to have tuned the enclosure by ear, so the bigger box might as well require a different tuning.
This is also very dependent on room and placement...

One experiment you could conduct would be to only mount one port and block the other holes, and try different tunnings with that port, by ear or measurements. Then having found your ideal tuning you could replicate it with the 3 ports (the volume taken by the ports would also have to be taken into account then)

4313B

10-05-2009, 11:57 AM

GT is said to have tuned the enclosure by ear, so the bigger box might as well require a different tuning.He tunes enclosures by ear and then plugs the measured tuning frequency and ducted port dimensions into a formula to obtain the net effective volume.

speakerdave

10-05-2009, 12:44 PM

He tunes enclosures by ear and then plugs the measured tuning frequency and ducted port dimensions into a formula to obtain the net effective volume.

Yes, indeed.

dkalsi

10-19-2009, 07:32 AM

Hi All,

Been a while since I updated this thread. I am getting ready to order veneer (even though the enclosure are not fully preped yet).

I was planning on ordering the 4x10 Walnut veneer at Oak Wood Veneer. According to the website, they do not carry 4x10 in premium Walnut. I wanted to aske other if they felt that "A" grade should be good enough for this project.

And oh, just the show that this thread is still some what alive, I have attached some pictures below. I have not been taking many pictures as my parents have borrowed my camera for their vacation trip and the only camera I have at the moment is my cell phone. And once again, I apologize for not updating enough. Just been hella bust at work (65+hours a week). Additionally, this is my first speaker build (I have only built Sonosubs in the past). Hence, it takes me forever to get little done when I do get the time to work on the project.

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x205/dkalsi/1-4.jpg

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x205/dkalsi/2-4.jpg
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x205/dkalsi/3-4.jpg

Mr. Widget

10-19-2009, 08:08 AM

I believe the only difference between Grade A and Premium is that Premium is consecutive sheets... i.e. each sheet looks virtually like the last... necessary for high end architectural jobs, and can be cool on a speaker project, especially large ones with wild grain where you want the two baffles to look identical, but it your case I imagine you are only using one sheet anyway so there would be no point.

Widget

dkalsi

10-22-2009, 08:55 PM

John W

10-23-2009, 07:58 AM

Could someone please respond/comment to/on the following questions:

1) Should I use spray-on bedliner to finish the backs and the bottoms? I've seen people do this on their DIY subwoofers and they feel it provides a long durable finish.

2) Would there be a problem with veneer holding onto the areas where wood fillers was used (i.e., on top of screwheads and some corners?

3) What is the best way to remove saw dust or woodfiller dust off of the enclosure before I paint/veneer? Is it best to vaccume, or is there another preferred method?

Thanks,
Dhar

1) The back of the cabinet doesn't get a lot of wear. I would be concerned that the bed liner may have a strong odor.

2) There shouldn't be a problem with wood fillers and the veneer. Make sure it dries good and sanded flush. Epoxy based fillers tend to cause a problem with contact cement so I would avoid those.

3) I use a vaccume, then follow up with a clean rag

badman

10-23-2009, 09:42 AM

1) The back of the cabinet doesn't get a lot of wear. I would be concerned that the bed liner may have a strong odor.

2) There shouldn't be a problem with wood fillers and the veneer. Make sure it dries good and sanded flush. Epoxy based fillers tend to cause a problem with contact cement so I would avoid those.

3) I use a vaccume, then follow up with a clean rag

Can you elaborate on #2? I'm using epoxy base fillers with my current project and am using pressure sensitive veneer, which to my understanding acts largely the same as contact cement. There will be plenty of 'normal' (nonfiller) surface around and about the areas with filler, but should I be worried here?

John W

10-23-2009, 10:03 AM

One time I thought it would be smart to strengthen the corners of an mdf cabinet with marine epoxy prior to putting on the veneer.
I was using DAP contact cement, and it wouldn't stick or dry properly on top of the epoxied areas. There was some sort of chemical incompatability.
I would do a few tests with small pieces of your veneer and filler on a scrap before attacking the entire cabinet.
You may not have a problem, but better to know ahead of time.

dkalsi

10-31-2009, 04:12 PM

I am having trouble deciding which way to go (in regards to painting the baffle): Blue vs Black.

I personally love the Blue - it's a nice classic look.

But, when I ask anyone in the family or any of my friends, they all prefer the black. These are all non-audiophile people, but that should not matter when it comes to the color of the baffle.

I am having a really tough time deciding.

I also have one quick question about Bo's JBL Blue mix --> As long as I am using Sherwin Williams pigments, I do not necessarily have to use Martin Senour "Bright Life" Latex Eggshell Enamel do I? Can I not use Behr Bright White Eggshell Enamel?

Any thoughts/opinion??

I can't decide - thought I get some more opinion

Earl K

10-31-2009, 04:23 PM

I am having a really tough time deciding.

Any thoughts/opinion??

I can't decide - thought I get some more opinion

FWIW, if I were to ever build these ( & I do hope to sometime ) , I would go with the look established by Rick R. (saeman), which means a black front along with a cool looking custom wood lens .

Of course, the offset 18" ( a la Giskard ) , as well as the lower tuning ducts, would be part of the package .

>< cheers :)

John W

10-31-2009, 05:08 PM

I would paint it blue and plan on making a set of grill covers. You'll feel better with a little bit of protection for the drivers. Then the color everyone sees is the color of the grills.

4313B

10-31-2009, 08:13 PM

Any thoughts/opinion??I went with the blue and it looks outstanding.

I used the second formula in the link below scaled down to a quart and didn't lighten it.

JBL Blue Baffle Paint (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=23885)

dkalsi

11-01-2009, 03:32 PM

I went with the blue and it looks outstanding.

I used the second formula in the link below scaled down to a quart and didn't lighten it.

JBL Blue Baffle Paint (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=23885)

4313B,

Thank you so much for posting that link. I went ahead with the Behr mix. After I had the technician at Home Depot prepare the paint, I want to inspect it one more before walking out the door. Just like the originator of the Behr paint mix, I too found the color too dark for my liking. Hence, I asked the technician to pour 2oz of white paint to the mix. After adding 2oz of white, the resulting bule was just the blue I wanted for my DIY 4345.

Thanks once agian,
D

4313B

11-01-2009, 03:53 PM

Cool!

Yeah, it is darker without the white added; I prefer the darker myself. :)

dkalsi

11-09-2009, 09:04 AM

dkalsi

11-16-2009, 12:59 PM

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x205/dkalsi/crossoverschematicsquestion.jpg

Have few crossover questions. I am using the above schematics for my DIY 4345 build.

I wanted to know where I can find the circled resistors. I checked Parts Express website for these components but they do not carry these exact values. Do you guys typically wire two resistors of different values in parallel to get actual value, or is it safe to use a 40ohm resistor for as a replacement for the required 39ohm resistor, and 20ohm as a replacement for 18ohm, 16ohm as a replacement for 15ohm, and etc. I am afraid of deviating too much from the schematics.

Lastly, can someone please help me find the 3.OMohm resistors?

Thanks,
Dhar

grumpy

11-16-2009, 01:24 PM

An example... with low quantity requirements.

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=3.0MQBK-ND

Some of the power resistors (if of the same value in parallel)
were likely used that way to dissipate more power.

If they were paralleled but not the same value, I would -guess-
that the value was carefully tweaked (possibly in combination with
more power handling, but then the lower value part would
take the heat).

If there was a parts list, you might get a better idea of what
was intended in terms of wattage and tolerance... or you might
ask the designer nicely (not me), rather than me guessing.

John W

11-16-2009, 04:59 PM

dkalsi

11-17-2009, 09:03 AM

The 3.0M resistors that hook up to the 9v battery are used for charge coupling the capacitors. These only need to be the 1/4 watt variety that you find at electronic suppliers like mouser.
If you can't find the values you need at Parts Express, here is a link to another supplier of Mill resistors like you would find in a crossover. You would probably want the 12 watt rating. http://www.soniccraft.com/mills_resistors.htm
Like mentioned, you can also parallel the values. A pair of 39 ohm 12 watt resistors, would be the same as a single 19.5 ohm 24 watt resistor. The doubling in this instance is for the extra power rating.

Do a search on-line and I'm sure you can find a calculator for determining parallel and series resistor values.

Thanks for posting John.

I guess my question is whether these values need to be exact or not.

For instance, the crossover requres a 6.8ohm resistor. Would it be okay to use a 7.0ohm resistor as a replacement? And would it okay for me to use 20 ohm resistor as a replacement for the required 18ohm resistor <-- Or should I wire a 16ohm resistor (which they have available) and 2ohm resistor (again, availalbe) in series to get a total resistance of 18ohm?

And Lastly, do I really need the Mills resistor, or can I use Dayton which are 1/3 the price?

Thanks
D

badman

11-17-2009, 09:18 AM

I am getting ready to veneer over the next few days (hopefully Thursday). Does anyone have any helpful tips before I start the process? More specifically, I wanted to know what I should be worrying about in regards to the tempreture in the room, the humidity, etc. Given the fact that I have brought the enclosure in from the garage - I have better control of the climate.

Just a reminder, I will be using the iron-on method of veneering.

Thanks

Yeah: Do a LOT of legwork (searching the archives etc) before beginning. The more reading you do, the easier the task. Also, go slowly (naturally, steps where you need to move quick for the adhesive don't apply) and stop and think before each step. A lot of people think they're "In the zone" when they're really just compounding errors (ask me how I know!)

There are a lot of ways to veneer, so I won't get too much more specific. With appropriate care you'll do fine.

Mr. Widget

11-17-2009, 09:42 AM

And Lastly, do I really need the Mills resistor, or can I use Dayton which are 1/3 the price?You can use the Daytons... I don't because resiters are cheap, but I doubt you'll notice a difference.

As for values... I try to end up with measured values that are within 5% of the spec... nice thing about the Mills is that they are almost always spot on. Most of the inexpensive resisters will vary a fair amount.

Widget

grumpy

11-17-2009, 09:53 AM

a little more on values...

1) in circuits where there they form a fixed/resistive attenuation pad, using values
that are reasonably close, is probably fair game, especially if followed by an
L-pad in the design.

2) in circuits where the resistors are used to obtain a certain frequency
response shape or Q, I'd follow the recipe as closely as possible, -and-
be sure that the L/R pairs match (or are tightly toleranced). Otherwise,
you may deviate from (lose) the intended system voicing.

I've used the ceramic/wire-wound Daytons... sound fine to me, but the
crappy gold plating means only bend the leads if you have to, or only do it
once.

Mr. Widget

11-17-2009, 10:38 AM

a little more on values...Very good points. :)

They gold plate the leads? That's pretty cheesy.

A bit OT:

The other day I was digging through my interconnect bucket and got a laugh... I noticed some old "gold plated" RCAs on a cheapo pair had turned rather brownish... I wonder what the percentage of gold their plating was? Or perhaps they advertised their interconnects as gold colored?

Widget

badman

11-17-2009, 11:43 AM

Very good points. :)

They gold plate the leads? That's pretty cheesy.

A bit OT:

The other day I was digging through my interconnect bucket and got a laugh... I noticed some old "gold plated" RCAs on a cheapo pair had turned rather brownish... I wonder what the percentage of gold their plating was? Or perhaps they advertised their interconnects as gold colored?

Widget

Generally that's the brass peeking through, in its lovely oxidized state :)

4313B

11-17-2009, 01:26 PM

Lastly, can someone please help me find the 3.OMohm resistors?I use 2.2 M ohm myself but anything between 2.0 and 5.0 M ohm will work.

I am using the above schematics for my DIY 4345 build.I'm working on a new one...

hjames

11-17-2009, 02:57 PM

I use 2.2 M ohm myself but anything between 2.0 and 5.0 M ohm will work.
I'm working on a new one...
Thank you, sir ... eager to see your next design!

dkalsi

11-17-2009, 03:57 PM

I use 2.2 M ohm myself but anything between 2.0 and 5.0 M ohm will work.
I'm working on a new one...

Oh noo? - new crossovers? Should I cancel my order for the parts corresponding to the above schematics?

Thanks,
D

dabass

11-18-2009, 04:26 AM

Hello Earl K

Can you send me coordonate (PM) of the person who buid your horn please.

Regards

Earl K

11-18-2009, 04:30 PM

Hi dabass,

These are not my speakers ( horns ) / they belong to John W and he created the horns himself ( on a lathe ) . John W is a member here .

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=33159&stc=1&d=1215531302

<> Earl K :)

dkalsi

11-23-2009, 09:39 AM

Just got done veneering (and being the first time I have every veneered), I am very happy with the results.

I cannot thank Saeman enough for posting the very helping veneering tips that he did.

I have a few questions about getting the right factory finish now:

1) In regards to sanding the encolsure, do you guys typically proceeds with 200 grit, 400 grit, and finish off with some steel wool?

2) How can I obtain a finish that is as light as possible. I had previously applied boiled linseed oil on my Klipschorns and they have become very dark over the years. Any recommendations for the type of finish I should apply? oil? poly? Again, the goal is to keep the speaker finish as light as possible.

3) What type of router bit is used to bevel the front trim of the enclosure. My DIY 4345 build has a solid walnut molding which is 1" wide and 1/2" thick/deep.

Lastly, I still can't decide whether I should wait for 4313B's new crossovers for the 4345 (especially given the fact that I too will be using a 2" driver), or go ahead and proceed with the latest ones. I have all the parts on hand for the latest ones, but part-express is willing to accept returns with 45 days of purchase date.

Please find below a picture (taken with my cellphone) of the current state of my DIY 4345:
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x205/dkalsi/JBLBuild.jpg

4313B

12-02-2009, 09:31 PM

Your enclosures look nice. :)
Lastly, I still can't decide whether I should wait for 4313B's new crossovers for the 4345 (especially given the fact that I too will be using a 2" driver), or go ahead and proceed with the latest ones. I have all the parts on hand for the latest ones, but part-express is willing to accept returns with 45 days of purchase date.I took some measurements tonight of another stock 4345 network and hope to have something worked up in a few days.

saeman

12-02-2009, 10:30 PM

3) What type of router bit is used to bevel the front trim of the enclosure. My DIY 4345 build has a solid walnut molding which is 1" wide and 1/2" thick/deep.http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x205/dkalsi/JBLBuild.jpg

The front bevel is cut at 60 degrees using a standad bit that is available - 1/2" shank only. If I understand you correctly, your trim is 1/2" thick - meaning the baffle is recessed 1/2" in from the trim front edge. If so you will not be able to exactly duplicate JBL's front trim profile. The factory 4345 baffle is recessed in from the front edge 3/4" to 13/16" and the front remaining flat edge of the trim is approx. 1/8". If you start making successive cuts into the trim to the depth that will yield a face edge of 1/8", you will cut thru the top edge of the trim and into the cabinet substrate. Hope this makes sense.

You have two choices - one is to cut your bevel leaving a 1/4" vertical face remaining - or - stack and glue an additional 1/4" on to the thickness of your face trim. The second option might sound stupid but I think it would be my first choice.

dkalsi

12-03-2009, 06:43 AM

Saeman,

The baffle is recessed 3/4" from the face of the front trip - the 3/4" recess consists of 1/2" walnut trim and 1/4" of MDF (from the side/top that extend beyond the baffle - if that makes sense).

I too used a 60 degree bevel for the trim (1/2" shank).

Thank you and thanks to 4313b for posting regarding the crossover.

I really appreciate all the help I received here at the forums.

Dhar.

4313B

12-03-2009, 12:07 PM

Thank you and thanks to 4313b for posting regarding the crossover.Based on the 135 data files I have run over the last few days I would recommend that you prepare to return the 2421B/2425J and 2405 parts. I can't say yet which parts, if any, might be reusable in the new circuit.

4313B

12-03-2009, 12:39 PM

2421B/2307/2308 replaced with 2441/2311/2308.
Stock 3144/3145 network. L-Pad set to 0 (3145).

dkalsi

12-03-2009, 01:38 PM

2421B/2307/2308 replaced with 2441/2311/2308.
Stock 3144/3145 network. L-Pad set to 0 (3145).

4313B,

FWIW - I wanted to let you know that I am going to install the 2307+2308+2420 inside my DIY 4345, but will also the 2441+2397 combo which will be placed on top of the speaker.

I was planning on installing two terminal posts at the bottom rear cutout to (a) bi-amp the 2245 and (b) for the upper three components -(2405,2420,and 2122H). I was also planning on installing set of binding posts on the top removable back section of the enclosure. This isolated terminal will then be connected to the 2441 sitting on top of the enclsoure. When I want to use the 2441 instead of the 2420, I can simply remove the back, disconnect the leads to the 2420 and simply attach them to the binding post I installed on the removable back. (See hand drawn picture below).

I have a really stupid question for you - is there any way for you to know whether the new crossovers will work equally well with the standard components (i.e. 2420) as oppose to working well with only the upgraded components (i.e. 2441). I realize that your efforts are to optimize the crossover for the 2441; nonetheless, I am curious how the performace might suffer/benefit when using standard components.

You had previously mentioned that users were already happy with the current schematics when using a 2" driver. Is there any chance that users will also be happy using the new crossovers (which have now been modified for the 2" driver) with the standard 1" driver?

Thanks,
D
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x205/dkalsi/mod.jpg

4313B

12-03-2009, 03:36 PM

The 2420 was never used in the 4344/4345. The drivers used were the 2421B, 2425J and 2426J. JBL didnt make any network changes because those three drivers were supposed to be electrically and acoustically equivalent.

As you can see above in #143 (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=271632&postcount=143) , Greg's statement "won't work" with respect to nilly willy parts swapping holds true. Substituting in the 2441/2311/2308 would require a network re-work.

Now I know that some guys couldn't care less and would do it anyway and post that they like it just fine and that's just the way DIY is. Something like a DEQX could "fix" the issue too.

I wouldn't speculate on how your Smith horns or 2420's would fare.

4313B

12-03-2009, 03:48 PM

Ok, it looks like all the parts in the schematic you referenced above for the 2405 are good enough too. The series 6.8 could potentially be replaced by a 6.2 and the parallel 6.8 could potentially be replaced by a 8.2 or 9.1

There is probably more variance between drivers than that though so it might not make any difference.

So it appears just the 2421B passband needs a rework which is what I've suspected for years but never got around to it.

The pink curve below is the stock network measured with an 8 ohm dummy load. The other three curves are the actual stock network measured with a 2421B load and L-Pad set to 0 (note the 4.06 ohm and 17.48 ohm resistors in the models equivalent to an L-Pad set to 0 in a 4345), the stock LEAP model with a 2421B impedance load and the equivalent network LEAP model with a 2421B impedance load.

dkalsi

12-03-2009, 05:24 PM

The 2420 was never used in the 4344/4345. The drivers used were the 2421B, 2425J and 2426J. JBL didnt make any network changes because those three drivers were supposed to be electrically and acoustically equivalent.

Yikes! - My mistake. I can swear I remember seeing it somewhere that the 2420 was used in the 4345.

EDIT:
See link: http://audio-database.com/JBL/speaker/4345-e.html
Don't ask me why I decided to look at the above link when I could have easily referenced the documents found here at the forums.

It bet it is nearly impossible to find a 2421B.

4313B

12-03-2009, 05:27 PM

I have "fixed" the passband for the 2421B.

The curves of interest below are the dark green and the red curves. The blue curve is from the original schematic you posted in #124 (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=270172&postcount=124) . The bright pink and bright green curves are aquired from measuring the stock network with 8 ohm and 16 ohm dummy loads instead of an actual driver impedance.

4313B

12-03-2009, 05:47 PM

4313B

12-03-2009, 06:44 PM

It bet it is nearly impossible to find a 2421B.2420 core with a D16R2421 diaphragm.

dkalsi

12-04-2009, 07:45 AM

2420 core with a D16R2421 diaphragm.

Hey 4313B,
I just checked JBL parts list (available at the following link: http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Transducers%20Parts%20List/Transducer%20Parts%20List.pdf ) and it appears that the JBL 2420 and the 2421B use the same exact diaphragm. Are you sure I can simply replace the the diaphragm in my 2420 with D162421 and be good to go (not doubting, just confirming)? It makes sense given the diaphragm number, but that would mean that there is no way to replace a blown diaphragm in a JBL 2420 with the suggested diaphragm per JBL parts list and result in a JBL 2420 (it will always be a 2421). In any case $284 a pop - wow!.

speakerdave

12-04-2009, 09:12 AM

[quote=4313B;271649] . . . . Now I know that some guys couldn't care less and would do it anyway and post that they like it just fine and that's just the way DIY is. . . . quote]

Yeah, stay away from THOSE guys.

4313B

12-04-2009, 10:04 AM

Hey 4313B,
I just checked JBL parts list (available at the following link: http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Transducers%20Parts%20List/Transducer%20Parts%20List.pdf ) and it appears that the JBL 2420 and the 2421B use the same exact diaphragm. Are you sure I can simply replace the the diaphragm in my 2420 with D162421 and be good to go (not doubting, just confirming)? It makes sense given the diaphragm number, but that would mean that there is no way to replace a blown diaphragm in a JBL 2420 with the suggested diaphragm per JBL parts list and result in a JBL 2420 (it will always be a 2421). In any case $284 a pop - wow!.JBL did away with the D16R2420 diaphragm years ago.

Yeah, stay away from THOSE guys.I do. I hate being put into the position where all I can say is "Well, at least the veneer looks nice."

dkalsi

12-04-2009, 12:11 PM

I do. I hate being put into the position where all I can say is "Well, at least the veneer looks nice."
I will post the complete new equivalent filter in my DIY 4345/4345 Mk II thread along with the fix for a 2441.

Yes - that is certainly not how I want you to feel about my project. Hence, the reason why I waited for you to post new crossovers.

Thank you for posting the new schematics - #149 (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=271656&postcount=149) . Although your changes is red are extremely helpful - I will wait until you post official schematics (I just don't want to make any more mistakes and read something incorrectly once again - my circles on those schmatics are certianly not helping). Lastly, although you highlighted the minimum components I will need to change, it is more than likely I will just return everything and buy everything I need based on the official new schematics.

Once again, thank you for all your help and providing your honest opinion. I much rather have the speaker that sounds as it should as oppose to just looking good.

4313B

12-04-2009, 12:42 PM

Lastly, although you highlighted the minimum components I will need to change, it is more than likely I will just return everything and buy everything I need based on the official new schematics.Probably a reasonable idea. I won't sign off on it until I actually build it and try it. I'm ordering all the parts in the next day or two.

dkalsi

12-04-2009, 01:18 PM

Probably a reasonable idea. I won't sign off on it until I actually build it and try it. I'm ordering all the parts in the next day or two.

Excellent - thanks. To simply things, I am just going to return all I bought and reorder for new parts sometime late december (or whenever you get done with your build/testing).

Thanks,
D

dkalsi

12-10-2009, 07:31 AM

I will post the complete new equivalent filter in my DIY 4345/4345 Mk II thread along with the fix for a 2441.

I won't sign off on it until I actually build it and try it. I'm ordering all the parts in the next day or two.

Hey 4313B,

Hope all is well. I just wanted to follow up in regards to the above. I was courious if you had the opportunity to order parts (and build) or post the schematics in your DIY 4345/4345 MK II thread.

Additionally, if you don't mind, could you please provide a link to your DIY 4345/4345 MK II thread? - I can't seem to find it (even after searching through "all threads started by 4313B").

Cheers,
Dhar

4313B

12-10-2009, 07:57 AM

Hey 4313B,

Hope all is well. I just wanted to follow up in regards to the above. I was courious if you had the opportunity to order parts (and build) or post the schematics in your DIY 4345/4345 MK II thread.

Additionally, if you don't mind, could you please provide a link to your DIY 4345/4345 MK II thread? - I can't seem to find it (even after searching through "all threads started by 4313B").

Cheers,
DharI'm in the middle of 4355 builds right now and due to downsizing at work I probably won't get done with them until the end of the year. After that I will start on the 4345 networks. I'm as anxious as anyone to get them done. I just have a time crunch problem at work.

The 4345/4345 Mk II thread was moved and I'm not sure if I will bother finishing it. Maybe I'll feel differently after the New Year.

dkalsi

12-10-2009, 09:26 AM

I'm as anxious as anyone to get them done. I just have a time crunch problem at work.

The 4345/4345 Mk II thread was moved and I'm not sure if I will bother finishing it. Maybe I'll feel differently after the New Year.

No worries at all. I have plenty to do (cosmetically) before I get to building/installing the crossovers. I am thinking about re-doing the baffle with the textured spray paint. Currently, my baffle is super smooth. It looks nice - but I think I will prefer the textured surface more.

Additionally, I have yet to apply any finish to the raw veneer. I've sanded the veneer already - however, I have not applied anything to protect it. I just recently purchased Waterlox Tung Oil finish. Per the directions, proper ventilation is absolutely necessary - and that is tough to arrange when it is 30-40 degrees outside.

dkalsi

02-15-2010, 09:29 AM

All,

I have an opportunity to pick-up NIB 2440 diaphragms for a reasonable price (not cheap, but cheaper than the price quoted on the JBL parts list).

As mentioned earlier in this thread, I was planning on using a pair of 2441 w/ Smith horns for my DIY 4345 build. I currently have two pairs of 2441. One of the pair has original aluminum diaphragms (don't know how many hours of use one them) and the other pair that has titanium diaphragms (maybe 2445 and am not sure if they are genuine or after market).

I was curious if I should buy the 2440 diaphragms and replace the titanium diaphragms in my 2441 for purposes of this project, or with the frequency extension with the 2440 diaphragms may not be sufficient??

Please share your thoughts.

grumpy

02-15-2010, 12:16 PM

I stopped reading after the first sentence. If you have the cash, the rest is moot ... :)

dkalsi

02-15-2010, 12:21 PM

I stopped reading after the first sentence. If you have the cash, the rest is moot ... :)

Haha - Thanks Grumpy - yes - I am definitely buying the diaphragms as I have already committed myself to the purchase (too late to back out now <- I would feel too guilty). Nonetheless, I wanted to confirm whether the 2440 is usable upto 10Kz (which I believe it the x-over point to the 2405 in the JBL 4345??).

Thanks,
D

grumpy

02-15-2010, 12:33 PM

It would appear so:
http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/specs/pro-comp/2397.htm

dkalsi

06-22-2010, 12:50 PM

Haven't updated this tread in a while, so I thought I post pictures of where the speakers stand right now. (this was my first speaker build so please forgive the mistakes). Structurally, they are beyond solid - overkill on bracing etc.- cosmetically I have made few minor mistakes - but you have to see it up-close in person to find them.

Steps remaining:

1) Building grills - is there a guide on this website on how to build the grills for the 4345 (I see the plans, but I have no idea how I should go on about building them).
2) Building crossovers (I plan on waiting until the new networks by Giskard are finished - hopefully soon)
3) Mounting 2122H and 2245H
4) Building support for the 2426H (although after mounting i feel it is not needed).

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x205/dkalsi/DSC_0530.jpg
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x205/dkalsi/DSC_0527.jpg

Amnes

01-09-2011, 03:58 PM

but I just had to say how awesome this thread is just like meany others on this site except I'm also at the point of deciding what to clone for the first time.

Any updates on the thread by chance?

dkalsi

01-10-2011, 08:51 AM

but I just had to say how awesome this thread is just like meany others on this site except I'm also at the point of deciding what to clone for the first time.

Any updates on the thread by chance?

Amnes,

My speakers and up and running - the only thing left are the grills. I am very happy with their performace. I will try to upload some pictures in the near future.

All in all, I highly recommend 2" for the MHF (as oppose the 2425 1" in the original 4345s). I made my 4345 almost all stock, but installed jumpers behind the speakers so I could use the JBL 2441+Westlake-like-smith horns on top of the speakers in lieu of the 2307+2425 I installed in the speaker cabinet. If I was to do this all over again, I would simply use the 2311+2441 inside the speaker. There is no reason to even try the 2307+2425 if you are building from scratch.

It's not that I don't like the 2307+2425, I just personally prefer the sound of the Smith-horns+2441 more. I'm guessing this may be due to the fact the I am using crossovers that were designed around the 2441 (i.e., Giskard's latest 3155 equivalents networks) as oppose to using crossovers that are designed around the 2425.

Good luck with your project.
-DK

Amnes

01-10-2011, 09:47 AM

You just must post pictures of the finished product to top off the thread!

hjames

12-12-2011, 12:53 PM

You just must post pictures of the finished product to top off the thread!

Yes, they are truly GORGEOUS! He should post some pictures here!

I was by his home Sunday picking up a 4641 Pro sub I bought from him (at a great price, too!)
and I asked him for a brief demo of the 4345s - Flat out WOW!!
The sound was superb, the quality of his craftsmanship -
exceptional ... the cabinets, and the grills - just fantastic!

opimax

12-14-2011, 10:07 AM

2 words...Listening party!

Mark

dkalsi

12-14-2011, 02:37 PM

2 words...Listening party!

Mark

Haha! Absolutely - I'd love to have you guys over sometime. I'll see if I can set something up. This time of the year is always difficult as we roll right into tax season (I work for an accounting firm) after the holidays. I'll keep you all posted.

Hans Bleeker

11-11-2012, 10:43 AM

Here is the corrected schematic from #124 (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=270172&postcount=124) showing the minimum number of parts you would need to change. This should get you really close.

I will post the complete new equivalent filter in my DIY 4345/4345 Mk II thread along with the fix for a 2441. Naturally I will have to build this and listen to it myself before I truly accept it.

Are these changes the changes for the 244x (2") use or for a 8 Ohm version of the 242x (1") compression driver ?

I made the 4355 network for now but I woul like to go to full passive 4344 with a'2" driver, sinds I lack the funds for an active crossver that can keep up with the rest.

I ment to link to post #149 But that somehow failed, thats the schematic I ment.