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Wagner
08-03-2009, 06:15 AM
Hi!
I already have some L96s and love them. I have a good shot at a decent price on a pair of L112s that are dirty but intact. Are the 112s as nice? Are they the same in every way except for the woofer and obvious box tuning differences required? I know they were contemporaries. Searching them here yeilds a mixed bag of opinions. Does anyone currently own both? I ask because the only audition will be in a garage and probably only with an ohm meter.
Any input would be of great help as I need to make a decision today.
Thank you!
Thomas

BMWCCA
08-03-2009, 06:36 AM
I've owned my pair of L112s since they were new. I bought a pair of L96s from a list-member here because of the praise for them on this site. My impression is that the L96s earned their reputation but if you like a more-robust bass response the L112s will provide the extra punch. Some here complain about the L112 being muddy or over-bearing in the low end compared to the L96 but personally I think that's hogwash and more a result of placement issues (floor versus raised and/or boundary reinforcement). I'd hope to never give up either but if such a choice had to be made the L112s would be the keepers. Just my opinion of course, and colored by enjoying the L112s for something like 28 years. Yeah, I know: all wank and no data! Sue me.

Oh yeah, the MF and HF drivers are identical, if that's what you meant.

grumpy
08-03-2009, 06:50 AM
Does anyone currently own both?

Also yes, ... and L150A's. I'll agree that room/placement is key, more so
for the L112's in my experience. Desert Island pick from the three? L150A
if I had the room, L96 otherwise. L112's sitting on 15" SUB1500 woofers
blew them all away, but that wasn't your question :)

If the price was right, I'd pick up the L112's... in fact I did, and have been
happy with my purchase.

4313B
08-03-2009, 06:57 AM
Some here complain about the L112 being muddy or over-bearing in the low end compared to the L96 but personally I think that's hogwash and more a result of placement issues (floor versus raised and/or boundary reinforcement).It is a placement issue to a large degree but also realize that the 128H is nearly twice as compliant as the LE10H. In other words, it isn't all hogwash.
Oh yeah, the MF and HF drivers are identical, if that's what you meant.As well as the network topology. The L96, L112, and L150A all shared a newer, modified version of the 4313 network. 3113 -> 3113B -> N96/N112/ N150A

Also yes, ... and L150A's. I'll agree that room/placement is key, more so
for the L112's in my experience. Desert Island pick from the three? L150A
if I had the room, L96 otherwise. L112's sitting on 15" SUB1500 woofers
blew them all away, but that wasn't your question :)

If the price was right, I'd pick up the L112's... in fact I did, and have been
happy with my purchase.The best of breed tact would be to put the L96 components in a 1.0 to 1.2 cu ft sealed box (4313B size) and then put those on top of the subwoofers of choice. ;) SUB1500's are really nice. I used B212's. I can empathize with some people preferring the 128H (especially in the L150A) if subwoofers aren't involved.

Which reminds me... anyone here upgrade their L150A's to 120Ti components? The 128H definitely likes the larger enclosure volume, vented or passive radiator.

Wagner
08-03-2009, 07:06 AM
It is a placement issue to a large degree but also realize that the 128H is nearly twice as compliant as the LE10H. In other words, it isn't all hogwash.As well as the network topology. The L96, L112, and L150A all shared a newer, modified version of the 4313 network. 3113 -> 3113B -> N96/N112/ N150A

Thank you. And thank you all.
So as far as pieces, an L112 is, in "fact" an L96 with a larger woofer and the corresponding box to go with it, sonic differences due to the woofer and enclosure aside?

I know you can't tell me if I'll like it better or worse subjectively, and obviously placement will have a big impact, but the upper end should have the same "voice", yes?

As to your post, the crossover points for the mids and tweets are the same?

I know this is going to push this towards a marketplace question, but at less than $250 should there be any hesitation? I have learned that the surrounds are most likely the original.

Thank you much.
Thomas

4313B
08-03-2009, 07:13 AM
at less than $250 should there be any hesitation?Probably not. I would think that you could easily get your money back out of them if you don't like them.

I know you can't tell me if I'll like it better or worse subjectivelyYou're right. I can't.

Interestingly, I've noticed over the years that, generally speaking, most women prefer the L96 (it sounds better to them) while most men prefer the L112 (invariably because of the larger woofer in the same size footprint).

Wagner
08-03-2009, 07:21 AM
Probably not. I would think that you could easily get your money back out of them if you don't like them.
Interestingly, I've noticed over the years that, generally speaking, most women prefer the L96 while most men prefer the L112 (invariably because of the larger woofer in the same size footprint).


Women :D

I know the L96 is the cleanest, tightest bass I've ever had in the room, but my wife can't hear the difference between them and a pair of Sonys I literally paid 2 cents for.

The L96s can sound a little smeary when used on the floor here (in the bottom end) but only when I have them in a less than optimum position which is most of the time. Always moving things around. On a good set of stands however, nothing comes close. The L112s would most likely be used on stands, close to a wall, as well.

I love the L96 bass sound; certainly, and by no means, the "deepest" I have had, but surly the most defined and accurate. VERY rarely do they leave me wanting for more at normal levels (and with a minimum of a 100 clean watts).

Thanks,
Thomas

Wagner
08-03-2009, 07:25 AM
Probably not. I would think that you could easily get your money back out of them if you don't like them.
You're right. I can't.

Interestingly, I've noticed over the years that, generally speaking, most women prefer the L96 (it sounds better to them) while most men prefer the L112 (invariably because of the larger woofer in the same size footprint).


The L112 will at least be tighter in the bass than the L100, yes? We refer to the L100s here fondly as the "fart pumps". :D

Don't get me wrong, I adore them (especially when drinking :) ), but they are a little "loose" with the acoustic bass on Jazz and a little overpowering on Rock 'n' Roll!

Thomas

4313B
08-03-2009, 07:33 AM
I know the L96 is the cleanest, tightest bass I've ever had in the room, but my wife can't hear the difference between them and a pair of Sonys I literally paid 2 cents for.Tragic! :rotfl:

Are you sure that she can't hear the difference as opposed to she just doesn't care? :p

The L112 will at least be tighter in the bass than the L100, yes?Yes. Completely different engineering eras. Greg did the L96 and L112. If the old L100 woofer "worked" he'd have used it to save money.

Wagner
08-03-2009, 07:44 AM
Tragic! :rotfl:

Are you sure that she can't hear the difference as opposed to she just doesn't care? :p


More likely just easy to please. How you think I got her to marry me? :D

It's worked out pretty well for the most part, you should see the car she drives! ;)

Thomas

rdgrimes
08-03-2009, 08:45 AM
Also have L96, L112 and L150A here. In terms of use and placement, the L112 and L96 should ALWAYS be on stands, minimum 18" and never on shelves, at least 1' from any walls. The L112 will be more appreciated at lower volumes in smaller rooms due to it's punchy bass. The L96 will be more appreciated at higher volume with a lot of power. In a larger room with ample power they will be more alike than different. In terms of imaging, clarity and precision they are the same. In terms of a balanced sound with minimal peaks and valleys in the response curve, the L96 takes the prize. Current resale on nice L112 is around $400-500, so getting an intact pair for $250 seems a no-brainer. All these models are under-valued. I use the L112 in my office, a smallish room, at lower volume with 350WPC power mainly because of the extended bass response at lower volumes.

BMWCCA
08-03-2009, 09:45 AM
It is a placement issue to a large degree but also realize that the 128H is nearly twice as compliant as the LE10H. In other words, it isn't all hogwash.I appreciate the learned differentiation, really!

I know there are many here who prefer nearly any 10" version of on JBL family over the equivalent 12". Maybe I just don't play mine as loud (unlikely), and maybe it's the damping factor of my Crown amps that controls those compliance issues :dont-know, but I can make direct comparisons of the L96, L112, L80T, and 4412A and in each case my ears prefer the 12" version. This imperfectly assumes the L80t (port and stuffing modded) to be roughly equivalent to the 4410 (closer than the L100t is to the 4412A) in what we're talking about.

Don't get me wrong; I love the L96 and I think the modded L80t is a very competent speaker, too, so I appreciate the 10" JBLs. Plus I have those 2122Hs in my 4345s. But—subwoofers not considered—the 12" "bookshelf" units for me offer a thump I just don't get from the 10" near-equivalents. Maybe that's "fake-but-fun"? ;)

And a lot of this for us amateurs is what we're used to. It'll be interesting to hear the impressions of Wagner as a long-term L96 owner, if he gets the L112s. :thmbsup:

Wagner
08-03-2009, 10:47 AM
I appreciate the learned differentiation, really!

I know there are many here who prefer nearly any 10" version of on JBL family over the equivalent 12". Maybe I just don't play mine as loud (unlikely), and maybe it's the damping factor of my Crown amps that controls those compliance issues :dont-know, but I can make direct comparisons of the L96, L112, L80T, and 4412A and in each case my ears prefer the 12" version. This imperfectly assumes the L80t (port and stuffing modded) to be roughly equivalent to the 4410 (closer than the L100t is to the 4412A) in what we're talking about.

Don't get me wrong; I love the L96 and I think the modded L80t is a very competent speaker, too, so I appreciate the 10" JBLs. Plus I have those 2122Hs in my 4345s. But—subwoofers not considered—the 12" "bookshelf" units for me offer a thump I just don't get from the 10" near-equivalents. Maybe that's "fake-but-fun"? ;)

And a lot of this for us amateurs is what we're used to. It'll be interesting to hear the impressions of Wagner as a long-term L96 owner, if he gets the L112s. :thmbsup:


Well, you'll get your wish. I am leaving to pick them up now. If the surrounds allow, I'll have an impression this afternoon.

Thank you all,
Thomas

midlife
08-03-2009, 12:04 PM
Also have L96, L112 and L150A here. In terms of use and placement, the L112 and L96 should ALWAYS be on stands, minimum 18" and never on shelves, at least 1' from any walls. The L112 will be more appreciated at lower volumes in smaller rooms due to it's punchy bass. The L96 will be more appreciated at higher volume with a lot of power. In a larger room with ample power they will be more alike than different. In terms of imaging, clarity and precision they are the same. In terms of a balanced sound with minimal peaks and valleys in the response curve, the L96 takes the prize. Current resale on nice L112 is around $400-500, so getting an intact pair for $250 seems a no-brainer. All these models are under-valued. I use the L112 in my office, a smallish room, at lower volume with 350WPC power mainly because of the extended bass response at lower volumes. Did you say never on shelves. I have a room with 18' ceilings and I planned to put my 96s on shelves about 9' up...do you see a problem? And if so my placement for the speakers almost has to be there. Could orientation help a potentially bad location? thanks.

BMWCCA
08-03-2009, 12:05 PM
am assuming that this is partially aimed at me,,,, but its not all together true..Certainly you are one of many here who have an affinity for the 4410, along with many others, and well-deserved. But the operative words were "many" and "nearly". And it really is personal to a great extent as demonstrated in having heard at least one respected member here pose that that L80T is one of the best all-around JBLs ever, and others who have kicked that model to the curb. I'm pleased I own so many systems that garner words of praise and the consensual validation might just add to the enjoyment! :D I've heard some clunkers in my time (Klipsch Fortes come to mind, even stacked pairs of them) yet even my lowly L20Ts and the cheapo LX22s aren't slackers when they're connected to a good system.

I must be imaging-challenged, or at least tolerant. I grew up with big JBL two-ways (030s that I still love) and now listen primarily to 4-ways which to me provide the ultimate experience—and I have no imaging complaints with any of the three 4-way systems I currently own. Three-ways either, for that matter, and that includes five-or-more systems. Just dumb luck, maybe compatible room and/or positioning, or just…dumb. ;)

Guilty as charged: fat, happy, and enjoying a good track! A good friend just passed away in his sleep this past week two days after I was with him at a motorcycle rally. He was 59, slim, vegan, and an avid bicyclist and health nut. I'm 56, overweight, somewhat sedentary, with a family history of heart disease, so I'm not going to waste a lot of time complaining when I could be enjoying life. :)

I hope Wagner will be as smitten by the L112s as many others here seem to be. :applaud:

BMWCCA
08-03-2009, 12:44 PM
Since we're off-topic already:
I put in nearly 200 miles/month on the bike ...eat abt 50% Asian food , 6'1" 195Yep, so did my friend who just died…in bed…causes unknown. Only he was much skinnier. Autopsy apparently reported a slightly enlarged heart, which I expect would be typical of any athlete in good shape, ie. Lance Armstrong!

My first visit to a doc in 20-years (other than to the homes of my friends who are surgeons) was for an age-appropriate physical and referral for those old-guy tests two-weeks ago as instructed by my insurance company. Told the doc he'd better not tell me I should weigh what I weighed in high-school (BTDT). That would be 188-pounds back when I was an all-American in waterpolo. I'm now 6'1" 208. Doc took a look at some tables and told me he wanted me to weigh 180! :rotfl:My shoulders and head weigh that much!

rdgrimes
08-03-2009, 02:03 PM
Did you say never on shelves. I have a room with 18' ceilings and I planned to put my 96s on shelves about 9' up...do you see a problem? And if so my placement for the speakers almost has to be there. Could orientation help a potentially bad location? thanks.
Staying on topic, ( ;) ), I see 2 problems with that plan.

1st, the height. Drivers should always be at ear level. Up higher but aimed at ear level is an alternative, but not the best one.

2nd, You need to deal with reflections from the ceiling and walls, which can kill the sound of a speaker. Placing them in the mid-point of the wall could create some weirdness in that regard, with reflections from both the ceiling and floor causing cancellations or standing waves and the like. Aiming them down would again help.

Placement on stands, tall enough to raise the mids to ear level, will give the best performance. As far away from any wall as possible. The L96 has stellar performance off-axis, but it's not perfect and the further off-axis you go the worse it gets.

midlife
08-03-2009, 03:33 PM
Staying on topic, ( ;) ), I see 2 problems with that plan.

1st, the height. Drivers should always be at ear level. Up higher but aimed at ear level is an alternative, but not the best one.

2nd, You need to deal with reflections from the ceiling and walls, which can kill the sound of a speaker. Placing them in the mid-point of the wall could create some weirdness in that regard, with reflections from both the ceiling and floor causing cancellations or standing waves and the like. Aiming them down would again help.

Placement on stands, tall enough to raise the mids to ear level, will give the best performance. As far away from any wall as possible. The L96 has stellar performance off-axis, but it's not perfect and the further off-axis you go the worse it gets.
The little woman wants them off the floor and stands may not be enough. When you say off axis I don't know what that means. I had already thought of tilting them down toward the listening area. Across the length of the room, opposite of the higher L96s', would be a pair of L46s at about seven feet tall. This would be my HT four speaker stereo audio for that room. If its really bad I guess I could put both pair on appropriate heigth stands. Any of this sounds workable? thanks.

Wagner
08-03-2009, 03:44 PM
Just got back with them. Cabs are VERY grimy and scratched, but all on the surface. All the corners are there and sharp. Foilcals and lettering perfect. Twist connectors intact and the plastic caps haven't been split from over torque. Both boxes have all the pegs. Drivers are all pristine with one almost invisible dink on one of the tweeter's screens. Cones are a nice bright white.

The funky wood and wire grille frames are solid; still with hanging tags. Cats have rendered the cloth useless but that's OK, I hate the brown stuff.

Only downer is they are about 3,500 numbers apart; otherwise I couldn't ask for more.

And the BEST part? Close inspection and a FIRM and MANLY fully depressed rub around (sounds Pornish, huh? :D ) yields no evidence of any deterioration of the surrounds whatsoever; impressions of the mold still evident. Only time will tell, these speakers have not been used in 10 years, but have been in a very nice and dry storage garage. They are definitely up for a road test after a little cleaning gets done. I will rotate the drivers and wake them up gently.

It's nice when it's all cosmetic. Paid $200 for them and the seller was a delight as well as the original owner. I've done very well with "craigslist" lately.

More to come. Thanks guys,
Thomas

midlife
08-03-2009, 03:58 PM
[quote=midlife;260922]The little woman wants them off the floor and stands may not be enough. When you say off axis I don't know what that means. I had already thought of tilting them down toward the listening area. Across the length of the room, opposite of the higher L96s', would be a pair of L46s at about seven feet tall. This would be my HT four speaker stereo audio for that room. If its really bad I guess I could put both pair on appropriate heigth stands. Any of this sounds workable? thanks for any info.:)

Ralph856
08-03-2009, 04:42 PM
The L96, L112, and L150A all shared a newer, modified version of the 4313 network. 3113 -> 3113B -> N96/N112/ N150A


Sorry I don't get it. You often hear that a good upgrade for the L96 is to modify their networks from N96 to 3113B. Did JBL screw up when modifying the 3113B into the N96 for the L96, making it worse rather than better? TIA

Wagner
08-03-2009, 05:13 PM
Can we get back on topic long enough to answer a rather novice question? ;)

L112s: start with tweeters inboard or out?

Thanks,
Thomas

BMWCCA
08-03-2009, 05:17 PM
Did JBL screw up when modifying the 3113B into the N96 for the L96, making it worse rather than better? TIA

:dont-know

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Network%20Schematics/3113B%20Network.pdf

http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical%20Sheet/L96%20Delta%20ts.pdf

I was suspecting an answer related to "price point". :)

Wagner
08-03-2009, 05:17 PM
Can we get back on topic long enough to answer a rather novice question? ;)

L112s: start with tweeters inboard or out?

Thanks,
Thomas

And my wife lets me put my tweeters where ever I want, so that's not a problem! :D

Thomas

MikeBrewster77
08-03-2009, 05:21 PM
Can we get back on topic long enough to answer a rather novice question? ;)

*Sigh* If you insist :p


L112s: start with tweeters inboard or out?

http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Owner%27s%20Manual/L112om.pdf
See page 3

Ralph856
08-03-2009, 05:27 PM
:dont-know

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Network%20Schematics/3113B%20Network.pdf

http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical%20Sheet/L96%20Delta%20ts.pdf

I was suspecting an answer related to "price point". :)

Ok, thanks for clearing that one up. I just took the 'newer modified' reference to mean 'better'. I guess it wasn't, apart from the bypass caps. It's been a long day and I'm shattered. :o:


Can we get back on topic long enough to answer a rather novice question? ;)


Apologies. Over and out.

Wagner
08-03-2009, 07:16 PM
*Sigh* If you insist :p



http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Owner%27s%20Manual/L112om.pdf
See page 3


Thank you for the link.
Thomas

MikeBrewster77
08-03-2009, 07:36 PM
Thank you for the link.
Thomas

More than welcome. Best of luck with them, and let us know your thoughts once they're up and running.

Wagner
08-03-2009, 08:41 PM
If it's too good to be true then it probably is. As for those miracle seemingly perfect surrounds that stayed supple and didn't turn to mush after 30 years? Well, they did, 'cause they've been done in the last 5 or 10; by someone that was very neat and precise with his gluing, EXCEPT for the get it square in the gap part. :D
I couldn't wait so I stated running a little low level radio signal through them to wake 'em up. Immediately I could hear one woofer buzz/fluttering like a surround job with too LITTLE glue and loose edges. So then I did what I should have done in the first place and rotated them both 180 at which point it became apparent that they had been done.
Rotating the drivers seemed to have cured the issue (and there was some wiring in a less than ideal location which I adjusted, as well as the tinsel leads.
Gave 'em a HARD run with the first and second movement of Bruckner's 5th and they sounded superb.
Then I hit 'em hard with the volume at 12 o'clock with the Fender bass test track on Stereophile's old test CD. The anomaly is still there, ALMOST gone but still, unfortunately not negligible in the literal meaning of the word.
So, I am faced with what I didn't want; having to decide whether or not to invest in a proper repair and service for a speaker that has yet to prove itself a keeper.
But what I have heard so far, albeit brief, is WONDERFUL and I like everything about them I've heard. Right now for the shake down/check out they're just sitting on the living room floor between the L96s; no where near correct.
Funny thing is, when I first talked with the seller on the phone he said when asked about previous work/surrounds that to "the best I can recall" nothings ever been done.
Who (unless the acid was mighty good) could forget pulling (2) 10+ pound woofers out of (2) large wooden boxes and driving them somewhere to be fixed, picking them up and then putting them back in? :D Taking the whole assembly in would be equally memorable as well I would suspect. ;)
I had initially passed on these suspecting as much; I told him I would have rather had a pair that were inoperable and untouched, allowing me to do or supervise the fix. Ah well. Now I'm bitching like a little girl! :)
BUT IF YOU'RE GOING TO DO IT, PLEASE DO IT RIGHT, OR HIRE SOMEONE THAT CAN! RE-WORK IS SO MUCH MORE OF A PAIN IN THE ASS!!!!!!!!
At moderate to just loud levels they are perfectly fine. Most folks would be pleased.
Looks like I'm going to be shopping for a re-cone job. :o:
I'm still very pleased with the deal and plan on playing with them for the next few days and getting them up on stands.
One comment though as to what has been said before; the LAST thing on Earth this pair of L112s is, is "muddy". Far from it, and that's with them sitting on the floor 41/2 feet apart!
(maybe it's the broken woofers :D)

More to come,
Thomas

BMWCCA
08-03-2009, 08:58 PM
Of course re-cone would be the best for them, but might you first try a proper re-surround, if they haven't been too messed-with already? Invest your time and maybe twenty-bucks or so to see? Pictures?

The pros here who do re-cones might let you know if you can even get the white cones anymore, if that might influence you one way or another. The 2007 price list showed the correct C8R128H kit for $176.00, each.

:dont-know

Wagner
08-03-2009, 09:42 PM
Of course re-cone would be the best for them, but might you first try a proper re-surround, if they haven't been too messed-with already? Invest your time and maybe twenty-bucks or so to see? Pictures?

The pros here who do re-cones might let you know if you can even get the white cones anymore, if that might influence you one way or another. The 2007 price list showed the correct C8R128H kit for $176.00, each.

:dont-know

Whoever the hack was, he at least was fastidious and clean. Like I said, the job LOOKS damn good. If this was a straight replacement for rot, I'd already have the kit on the way. My only trepidation now is the fact that I will be attempting to remove a good surround from the back of a white cone with FRESH glue and a "good" glue job at that. :bs:
And the fact that there is obviously some degree of spider fatigue, or some issue anyway, since the rotation cleared up 99.9% of the symptom, only complicates matters, making the decision on which way to go all the more difficult.

BUT it's great to live in America and have this sort of problem to be bothered with! Wouldn't you agree?

Thomas

MikeBrewster77
08-03-2009, 09:48 PM
BUT it's great to live in America and have this sort of problem to be bothered with! Wouldn't you agree?


Unless you're a fan of the metric system - oh, whoops - wrong thread! :p

Wagner
08-04-2009, 09:00 AM
Well it turns out that a daughter had the old JBLs for a while. The seller indicated that she must have had the work done.
Subsequently, the speakers have been sitting in storage, unused for more than 9 years, until yesterday afternoon.
Mystery/conflicting stories solved.
As written, initially the symptom was clearly that of an inadequately bonded surround, yet visually from the front all seemed well. Pain in the ass, but no big deal, it was the change in symptom that was spoiling the whole deal for me.
An anxious inspection immediately upon the return home after the long drive and pick-up is inadequate. Problems manifest immediately are a pain and need to be addressed in a calmer more methodic mood. I have experienced this identical symptom before with other woofers repaired by "techs" who were reluctant to apply adequate adhesive for fear of spoiling the Aquaplas. It is one of the things that lead me to finally start doing my own repair; BUT on lesser brands than JBL. I won't/wouldn't be too upset making a mistake on the technique learning curve with an old Jensen/Advent 10" for example.
I only became anxious after the buzz/fast flutter syndrome shifted after rotation to a SLIGHT and occasional yet still audible "tick" when driven HARD.
And we all know those more mechanical sounds can be some very unhappy news!
Bottom line with all this babble? There appears no imminent threat of shorting or scraping so I'm going to run them in for a few days, then pull them and give them a close inspection from the rear and a go with Rick Cobb's test tone.
If all is well it will be more of a pleasure deciding if I want to get them back into true "spec" condition if the L112s prove to be keepers.

As for sound? I can detect elements that would give foundation for both sides of the discussion, yet at this point nothing so extreme that an adjustment or repositioning wouldn't address. I am not prepared to make ANY comment; I have less than 12 hours experience with the JBL L112, many of you have known them from day one.
Suffice it to say, however, it is one VERY fine sounding little system. I think I did well by my $200 bucks. :)

Thomas

4313B
08-04-2009, 09:16 AM
I think I did well by my $200 bucks. :):yes: