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View Full Version : Differences in enclosures - 4530 Scoop vs. 4507 JBL?



workaround1
07-11-2009, 07:21 PM
How do these two enclosures compare against each other for various music & home theater effects?

Is one significantly better than the other for music like jazz or classical or rock? Either would used with 2226 speakers that will be crossed over anywhere from 900 to 1200hz. And expected to get down to at least 50hz, as my subs will be crossed over at 60hz.

I'm very interested in the 4530. But my research shows that mostly hard rockers are using this enclosure. Will it also sound great with jazz, piano, classical and other critical listening music? Or am I better off with the 4507 for my 2226 speakers?

Below is the 4507 on the left and 4530 on the right. Not to scale of course.

doodlebug
07-11-2009, 08:00 PM
I'd suggest you take some time and run a search on both cabinets here. I have a set of the 4507s that came with JBL 2226 woofers. They're efficient and have great bass. The cool thing about them, though, is the use of Zilchplugs (search here for that one, too) and you can control the low-end cutoff point by filling up any number of the 4 vents. I'll be reconing a couple of 2225 woofers into 2235s for these cabinets which will make them about as good as you can get, IMHO.

I've never played with the 4530 but only have seen/heard them used in _very_ high efficiency installations where low-wattage Single Ended Amplifiers were in use. The bottom end was punchy but not _really_ deep, IIRC, although that could have been the diminuitive tube amps.

There will be others along here who have commented in far better technical detail on these many times in the past.

Cheers,

David

workaround1
07-11-2009, 09:02 PM
I'd suggest you take some time and run a search on both cabinets here.

Good call. I'm getting way more relevant 4530 results by using the forums search, than I was with using yahoo.

Still, the 4507 vs. 4530 hasn't been answered in the 10-15 threads I've read so far. But at least I'm getting a lot of info I didn't have before.

workaround1
07-11-2009, 11:01 PM
The C34 scoop with it's "rounded" back end looks interesting as well, as a "prettier" alternative to the 4530. But the plans available here are difficult to read and not overly comprehensive. Do-able. Just will require extra planning to figure things out.

Also, the plans call for a 37" height, but most C34 owners in the threads I've read so far are saying their cabinets are 39". Perhaps they are including feet in their dimensions.

C34:

jcrobso
07-13-2009, 08:16 AM
http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/catalogs/1957/page5.jpg

The C40 is the home version of the 4350. The C40 would be easier to build.

Akira
07-13-2009, 10:34 AM
I have used the 4530 a lot but, never the 4507.

Your right, it was popular with rockers a million years ago, We used to use them for P.A. bottoms, mainly due to lack of choice. I suppose the purpose of the scoop was to ad some throw to the box but, for live applications it really made no difference. The box was notorious for having no throw or impact and a big round soft bottom...no matter how many of them you had.
The 4530 did shine on two applications:
1) Out fitted with a K 140 it was fabulous on bass guitar.
2) One day one of my fellow soundmen got the idea that if you lay the boxes flat instead of vertical and lined them end to end with the drivers together and the scoop ends flared out, you would get something resembling a folded horn. DJ's used to do this with Cerwin Vega B36's.
You would need at least 4 boxes, ideally 8 per side. Low and behold that configuration had all the throw and impact in the world...what a wallop. The drivers all coupled closely with the scoops fanning out became a force to be reckoned with. It just worked.

If your application is home theater or music listening, I would go with the 4507.

jerry_rig
07-13-2009, 08:38 PM
The 4530 did shine on two applications:
1) Out fitted with a K 140 it was fabulous on bass guitar..


I remember seeing Emerson Lake and Palmer live in the mid-1970s and Greg Lake was using a side-by-side pair of 4520 cabs (the dual 15" version of the 4530) with a pair of 2395 horn lenses on top as his bass rig. Two Crown DC300As were powering the ensemble. This was in a very large auditorium and the "throw" was terrific!

Russellc
07-14-2009, 06:18 AM
If you are using subs, this likely wont be an issue, but otherwise, the 4507 cab is capable of lower extention. I have used 4507 with 2235H and 2225H and found it to be a great unit with either driver. For home purposes, the 2235H is a stupendous driver with lots of great bass. You will have to plug one or two holes with it. The scoop may be a little more efficient, I'm not sure of this. The 2225H would be an excellent driver for either of these boxes, as would the 2226H.

russellc

Akira
07-14-2009, 08:39 AM
I remember seeing Emerson Lake and Palmer live in the mid-1970s and Greg Lake was using a side-by-side pair of 4520 cabs (the dual 15" version of the 4530) with a pair of 2395 horn lenses on top as his bass rig. Two Crown DC300As were powering the ensemble. This was in a very large auditorium and the "throw" was terrific!
I saw the Brain Salad Surgery tour in the early 70's which was the only 'truely' quadraphonic system in the world at that time. They used an exclusively JBL system top to bottom, even all the amps, processors and 3 main consoles. They had physically removed hundreds of seats to install a mirror image system with 4 identical stacks containing:
(4) 4550
(8) 4560
(16) 2480
(32) 2420
The sound was absolutely phenomenal even though there is much better equipment today. When Greg Lake sang he sounded like a God. The sonic image of his voice was as big as the entire arena. It sounded like you were right inside of his throat. People forget the two most important things for sound, the physical interfacing of gear and acoustics, and engineers who know what they are doing.

Which begs the question:
Why can't they duplicate or supercede that fidelity today??????

workaround1
07-14-2009, 10:09 PM
Yes, either cabinet will be fitted with 2226's.
Getting mixed signals on the 4530 still.

The reason I don't like the 4507 is due to the shape and because the 4530 supposedly has more of a kick to it.

I'm really into the 4530 and yes, I'll be using subwoofers with it! But I'm just worried that those who have the scoop are just fanboys and the enclosure may not be an audiophile type enclosure after all?

I'm handy enough with woodworking that I'll be building whatever I decide on, assuming I can get some better plans than what I've come across so far.

Loren42
07-15-2009, 05:13 AM
The scoop will do nothing for detailed listing of jazz and classical music. The 2226 would be best served in a traditional cabinet correctly tuned to match your sub (and mid).

However, to achieve the detail and definition you desire you will need to do your real homework on your midrange and tweeter selection and the corresponding crossovers that tie it all together.

I am not familiar with the 2226's ability to extend to (and beyond) the 900+ Hz you want. According to the JBL data sheet 1200 Hz is the maximum recommended upper end. Beyond that it looks like a nasty cone break up. I like 900 Hz as the crossover point. Damn shame it is in the middle of the human voice band. For jazz and vocals it would be ideal to get the crossover points below 400 Hz and above 4,000 Hz to avoid phase shifts in the critical listening zones, but I guess you knew that already going into this.

I simulated the driver in a 5 cubic foot vented box tuned to 47.47 Hz (two 6" vents 8.5" long). In that box the F3 is about 47 Hz, which ticks nicely with your 50 Hz requirement. Vent speed was a comfortable 16 to 18 m/s.

However, you will need to have a very steep filter on the bottom end because the xmax of .3" was exceeded at 40 Hz (600 Watt program material).

Personally, I would think that it would be better to limit the upper end of the 2226 to no more than 400 Hz and try to find a good mid horn to pick up from there and carry you above 3,500 HZ to avoid disrupting the vocal band.

I'd be curious to hear what others might think.

jcrobso
07-15-2009, 09:48 AM
I remember seeing Emerson Lake and Palmer live in the mid-1970s and Greg Lake was using a side-by-side pair of 4520 cabs (the dual 15" version of the 4530) with a pair of 2395 horn lenses on top as his bass rig. Two Crown DC300As were powering the ensemble. This was in a very large auditorium and the "throw" was terrific!

In one sound installation I used a pair of 4520s loaded with 2226s and WOW I could shake the room!:D

jaybird
07-15-2009, 07:36 PM
I have been using 4530's for over 30 years and they now reside down stairs with the original 2205's that I installed in 1982 when I built this pair, and I had an actual jbl pair to take all the measurements from. I'm now using the 12"x 6" waveguides on 2420's and 2405's crossed over at 800 and 7K and powered with only a 50 watt per channel SAE power amp. The sound even without my 2235's ( ran out of room) is wonderfull. There's my endorsment !

Hamilton
08-06-2009, 12:40 PM
I saw the Brain Salad Surgery tour in the early 70's which was the only 'truely' quadraphonic system in the world at that time. They used an exclusively JBL system top to bottom, even all the amps, processors and 3 main consoles. They had physically removed hundreds of seats to install a mirror image system with 4 identical stacks containing:
(4) 4550
(8) 4560
(16) 2480
(32) 2420
The sound was absolutely phenomenal even though there is much better equipment today. When Greg Lake sang he sounded like a God. The sonic image of his voice was as big as the entire arena. It sounded like you were right inside of his throat. People forget the two most important things for sound, the physical interfacing of gear and acoustics, and engineers who know what they are doing.

Which begs the question:
Why can't they duplicate or supercede that fidelity today??????

I saw ELP during that tour and I agree, probably the most phenominal concert sound I have ever heard. Greg Lake's bass was thunderous, and I'm not a fan of reflex enclosures. The quad PA was jaw dropping.

dan079
10-07-2009, 11:52 PM
Could someone please send me (or post) some plans for the JBL 4507 Cabinets I would really like to build them and try them out with my 2225H's. Thank you in advance.

Eaulive
10-08-2009, 12:13 PM
I remember seeing Emerson Lake and Palmer live in the mid-1970s and Greg Lake was using a side-by-side pair of 4520 cabs (the dual 15" version of the 4530) with a pair of 2395 horn lenses on top as his bass rig. Two Crown DC300As were powering the ensemble. This was in a very large auditorium and the "throw" was terrific!

The 4520 is NOT two 4530 side by side. The 4520 is deeper, higher and the horn is longer. (of course it's also wider, but you already knew that :p)

I really want to build a set of 4520s, but I hesitate about the driver. 2226H, 2033H or E140-8.

The 2226 is easy to get but expensive, and I don't really need that kind of power, the SPL could be achieved with a set of E140-8 instead and it was one of the recommended drivers for this enclosure.
I can also get 2033H easily (and cheap) but I don't know if they are suitable for this application, nobody seems to have the T/S parameters :(

Mr. Widget
10-08-2009, 01:00 PM
I'm very interested in the 4530. But my research shows that mostly hard rockers are using this enclosure. Will it also sound great with jazz, piano, classical and other critical listening music? Or am I better off with the 4507 for my 2226 speakers?

The reason I don't like the 4507 is due to the shape and because the 4530 supposedly has more of a kick to it. More kick and critical listening of piano and jazz are mutually exclusive concepts... there is accuracy and then there is exaggeration. As has been said a few million times, there is no free lunch and loudspeakers are all about the art of compromise.




I'm handy enough with woodworking that I'll be building whatever I decide on, assuming I can get some better plans than what I've come across so far.If you plan on building your cabinets then who cares about the shape of the 4507? It isn't JBL's or anyone else's best box.

Why not build a properly braced box that is the shape you like and tune it for your drivers.

http://www.jblpro.com/pub/manuals/enclgde.pdf

On a side note, I'd caution you against using the 2226 up as high in frequency as you are suggesting... to do this will significantly color the critical midrange of your speaker system. It certainly will work and others have done as you suggest, but in critical listening I don't think you'll ever reproduce the bright clear tone of a well recorded Steinway.

Widget

bflanigan
12-09-2009, 09:00 AM
Could someone please send me (or post) some plans for the JBL 4507 Cabinets I would really like to build them and try them out with my 2225H's. Thank you in advance.

I was just given a pair of 4705's and I don't think I have room for them. One has a torn driver although it's not a blown driver. Would you be interested in them or are you wanting to build a new pair yourself?

djnagle
01-14-2010, 12:25 PM
I have had the scoops for about a year now and love them. They do kick and slam when you need it, but the stand up bass is to die for. You feel like it is in the room with you. I have the 2225 drivers which afaik is the recommended driver. I've heard both cabs and they both sound great. It might be more a matter of how big your room is, or more percisly (SP) how much room you have. Now, that all said. I did not like mine at first. They lacked the slam and kick I was expecting. I was using a Behringer 3400 active crossover with 18 or 24db slopes (can't remember which one) but then I went with a Pioneer active crossover that allowed me to mess with the slopes. I now cross at 1000hz first order to the 2441 and now what a difference. Those things rock......but only when I need them too. I still maintain control over the volume knob and when playing Andre Sagovia there is no slam in the music.

4343
01-14-2010, 05:08 PM
I saw ELP during that tour and I agree, probably the most phenominal concert sound I have ever heard. Greg Lake's bass was thunderous, and I'm not a fan of reflex enclosures. The quad PA was jaw dropping.

I missed out, but a friend of mine saw them at the Oakland Coliseum, IIRC.

He described the Key solos as "at the threshold of pain" and said you could tell when the quad panner was bringing the keyboard your way from all the people doing the wave, as in putting their hands over their ears and ducking!