Can't we all just get along?

[MikeBrewster77]

My turntable and sub are not playing nice with each other at anything but extremely low volumes. Short of wall-mounting the TT (which I'd consider if I wasn't likely going to be moving soon) does anyone have experience with any of the isolation products out on the market? There's quite a few, and I'd prefer to buy something with which someone has had a positive experience.

Thanks in advance! :)

[Titanium Dome]

I solved my turntable problem like this. It never gave me another problem.

[Titanium Dome]

OK, seriously, is your TT sitting on the sub? or where?

[JBL 4645]

You need to watch this fascinating video about Greek audiophiles one has such an elaborate turntable rig and another has rack that is suspended to reduce vibrations.

Greek Audiophile
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xs1aUws0Lrs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xs1aUws0Lrs)

Thou I wouldn’t go as far as they have with the cost. I’d place the turntable in room next to listening room to isolate any possible vibration. Is the floor wooden or concrete?


If you live in a house with a wooden floor with the ground directly underneath you could run a steel pole through the floor into a small concrete footing. Then you could make a shelf on top for your turntable. I have seen this done on more than one occasion and it works very well. Subs and vinyl dont usualy work well together in the same room.

Allan.

[Allanvh5150]

If you live in a house with a wooden floor with the ground directly underneath you could run a steel pole through the floor into a small concrete footing. Then you could make a shelf on top for your turntable. I have seen this done on more than one occasion and it works very well. Subs and vinyl dont usualy work well together in the same room.

Allan.

[JBL 4645]

I solved my turntable problem like this. It never gave me another problem.
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=40496&stc=1&d=1246143595

:rotfl:
Dome, you’re wickedly devilish touching your turntable, shame on.:D

[MikeBrewster77]

OK, seriously,
Your first post wasn't serious? Sh%t - anyone got an 'effin fire extinguisher???


is your TT sitting on the sub? or where?

It's on a table atop my CD player (which I thought would provide additional damping.) Not so much... :(


If you live in a house with a wooden floor with the ground directly underneath you could run a steel pole through the floor into a small concrete footing.
I've heard this done before, but unfortunately it won't quite work for my circumstances. I'm likely going to be moving very shortly so I'm trying to avoid anything that would require construction/physical alteration of the space...oh, and the floor's concrete anyway.


Subs and vinyl dont usualy work well together in the same room.

You're telling me! ;)

[JBL 4645]

Sounds like your turntable, needs an exorcism to free the demons within it.:D

Try placing a small piece of blutack on the cartridge to weight it down a bit to prevent jumping.

[MikeBrewster77]

Sounds like your turntable, needs an exorcism to free the demons within it.:D
Or maybe aliens will simply abduct it in the night and I can be done with the whole mess :nutz:

Try placing a small piece of blutack on the cartridge to weight it down a bit to prevent jumping.

Thanks for the thought, but the tracking force is set according to Ortofon's specs. Any additional weight would risk permanently damaging the cantilever and/or tip of the stylus, as well as my record collection. Not to mention, it would probably sound like kaka!

I have a Numark DJ-grade turntable I bought back in the 90's when I didn't know any better. That would likely fare OK with vibration, so I guess I could swap that in until I figure out a way to isolate this thing.

[JBL 4645]

Or maybe aliens will simply abduct it in the night and I can be done with the whole mess :nutz:


Thanks for the thought, but the tracking force is set according to Ortofon's specs. Any additional weight would risk permanently damaging the cantilever and/or tip of the stylus, as well as my record collection. Not to mention, it would probably sound like kaka!

I have a Numark DJ-grade turntable I bought back in the 90's when I didn't know any better. That would likely fare OK with vibration, so I guess I could swap that in until I figure out a way to isolate this thing.

I think these Alien Encounters will fly though your open window while you get some kip an fix your turntable like new.:D

http://chicago.metromix.com/content_image/full/463585/560/370

Yeah you’re right it would kanacker the diamond make your LP look like Freddy Krueger had a go at you favourite vinyl discs. :D

Oh! I just had this thought that may be worth looking into the low frequency maybe so boomy located around the turntable and lower in SPL dB in different part of the room.

Play some sine waves and check with an SPL dB to see how high the level is and at what frequency that is cursing the cartridge to jump?

I bet it can be isolated without the need of moving it! Think about all the discos that use turntables and many times more the SPL dB and in close proximity as well.

[Titanium Dome]

I found the three parts of this report useful in the past. It's five or six years old now.

http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/vibra_iso_pt1_e.html

You have a concrete floor, which is a good thing as far as isolating the TT from vibrations. Couple the TT to the solid, nonvibrating floor with a hefty stand.

Mine is tubular metal with a 3/8 tempered glass TT shelf isolated with four pads on top of the rack's glass shelf. (I could never get the balance right with only three, which the article recommends.)

Yes, I know there's all kinds of voodoo about glass shelves, etc., but it works for me.

As far as stacking it on other gear, that's considered a no-no, especially a thin metal enclosure that's prone to vibrate at low frequencies.

[MikeBrewster77]

I found the three parts of this report useful in the past. It's five or six years old now.

http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/vibra_iso_pt1_e.html
Very helpful article - thank you for passing it along :)


Mine is tubular metal with a 3/8 tempered glass TT shelf isolated with four pads on top of the rack's glass shelf.

Yes, I know there's all kinds of voodoo about glass shelves, etc., but it works for me.

That's exactly the kind of real world advice I was looking for. I bought snake oil once, and I was sorely disappointed.


As far as stacking it on other gear, that's considered a no-no, especially a thin metal enclosure that's prone to vibrate at low frequencies.

Makes sense - why didn't I think of that??? :dont-know

[hjames]

very weird - I had made a post about isolating this, but i came back and my post is gone.

Anyway - you can get marble tiles at home depot - fairly large ones at 1 foot square or larger. You could place 2 of those under the table and see how that works. They can be bought on a 1 or 2 tile basis.
Another approach would be placing a sheet of rubber or cork under the turntable, and if that worked, maybe building up a sandwich of it with 2 marble tiles, - like marble/cork/marble or something similar - the different resiliance and densities should cancel out vibration conduction.

[Mr. Widget]

My Velodyne sub has a subsonic filter. I engage it when playing vinyl... records generally have little or no content below 30Hz... all the sub is doing is reproducing rumble and feedback.

Assuming you don't have such a filter, you might try decoupling your sub(s). I have had luck putting the sub on a 2" slab of dense dark gray urethane foam. This got rid of the last bit of resonance once I had a decent TT stand.

An inexpensive TT stand can be made out of a slab of stone, granite , marble, etc., and a 20" bicycle inner tube with a couple of psi in it.


Widget

[MikeBrewster77]

Thank you Heather and Widget for your responses. Seems like you've both had good luck using solid materials coupled with some absorptive substance to isolate your TT's with good effect.

While my sub doesn't have a subsonic filter, my preamp does; unfortunately engaging it doesn't seem to help too much (probably due to the poor physical location of the table.) Truth be told, it's likely not just the sub alone causing the problems - it may just be bass vibration as a whole. And while it's not as if the stylus is actually jumping grooves, I can hear the feedback and not only is it unpleasant, I'm afraid I'm potentially damaging the vinyl with that amount of stylus vibration.

I learned from working on cars to try the cheapest potential fix first and work your way up to most expensive, so perhaps a trip to Home Depot's in order for tomorrow!

Thanks again! :)

[BMWCCA]

I still have a set of Audio Technica isolation feet that I used mostly for leveling out my Beogram back when I still spun vinyl. They seemed to work well. But I recall recently reading an article about using squash balls cut in half to isolate CD players, etc. Anyone else remember seeing it, or has anyone tried it? :dont-know

[JBL 4645]

I still have a set of Audio Technica isolation feet that I used mostly for leveling out my Beogram back when I still spun vinyl. They seemed to work well. But I recall recently reading an article about using squash balls cut in half to isolate CD players, etc. Anyone else remember seeing it, or has anyone tried it? :dont-know

I also read that article years ago maybe not the same magazine but the same idea.

[mech986]

The table that the TT is sitting on is likely part of the problem. Can you describe the size, shape, construction, and weight of the table?

You can try moving the TT towards one of the corners to change or adjust the vibration frequency of the table itself.

Another option and easy/cheap is to try getting some shrinkwrap a little or more, large than the tonearm diameter. Take the headshell/cartridge off and cover the tonearm from the bearing to the locking collar. You then heat with at heatgun or hair dryer to shrink it down to the tonearm. This will add mass and dampening.

Reinstall the headshell and rebalance the tonearm to static zero balance. Then redial in your tracking and anti-skate. The extra weight may shift the resonance point below the point where your tonearm/cartridge and TT are interacting.

If you don't like it, the shrinkwrap is easily removed with care and a sharp X-Acto type blade.

Otherwise, a solid stand like TD mentioned on a concrete floor should work well. Also, a narrrow depth table set at the floor/wall junction (not corner) may be needed to reduce ressonance. Heather's options of mass-loading (marble or ceramic tile) under the TT can also work. Check with any neighbors or friends who have done some recent tile or floor work. Otherwise, the tiles are fairly inexpensive for experimentation and can also function under speakers, amps, or as really large trivets!

Bart

[MikeBrewster77]

The table that the TT is sitting on is likely part of the problem.

Oh yeah - it's a sonic nightmare, I'm sure :yes:

Can you describe the size, Around 3' X 1' ... pretty standard coffee table size.

shape
Rectangular

construction
Cheap - Vintage Eames era solid (but small) wood legs, wood top with an overlay of formica - yeah, sonic bliss indeed. :rolleyes: Handles spills nicely, though.

and weight of the table?
Light

You can try moving the TT towards one of the corners to change or adjust the vibration frequency of the table itself.

At the end of the day, I'm thinking the table's simply gonna have to go. Shame - it looks nice :p

I really appreciate the input. The tonearm trick is one I've read about years ago, but totally forgot about it until you posted it here. That's definitely an interesting thought; the problem is - and this might sound just a little crazy (or maybe quite a bit crazy) - part of the appeal for vinyl with me is actually watching it in action. The tonearm on the table is really an attractive piece of equipment, and I'm not quite sure I can bring myself to ruin the aesthetics. Yeah, I know... :screwy:

I never did make it to Home Depot today, but I'm thinking that just getting it on a solid surface coupled with some absorptive material might do the trick. If not, I'll have to do some additional experimentation. If I had a use for about 300 frisbees, I swear, I'd be done with the whole effin' mess! :p

Thanks again for the advice!
- Mike

[grumpy]

Alternate to direct-coupled vibration suggestions...

Are you running with a dust cover (down)?

A turntable has many paths of coupling direct and air-borne vibrations
to the disk/needle interface, as well as many resonant modes and
frequencies.

Did you ever estimate the resonant feedback frequency?

As weird as it might seem, you could try swapping speaker polarity at both
speakers... if your resonant problem is narrow enough, this might move
the sensitive frequencies out of range... then again, it could just move the
problem elsewhere. I've not tried this... just seems like an easy experiment.

[MikeBrewster77]

Alternate to direct-coupled vibration suggestions...

Are you running with a dust cover (down)?

I never run it with the cover attached.


Did you ever estimate the resonant feedback frequency?
If I were to take a guess I'm thinking 50-60Hz, but that's purely conjecture based on my estimation of room response, bass response across the system, the table itself, etc. None of it's actually been measured.


As weird as it might seem, you could try swapping speaker polarity at both speakers... if your resonant problem is narrow enough, this might move the sensitive frequencies out of range... then again, it could just move the problem elsewhere. I've not tried this... just seems like an easy experiment.

Does sound easy enough - definitely worth a try. I'm all about cheap solutions! ;) I'm still thinking that for best performance, it's worthwhile for me to isolate it from vibrations in general. Occassionally, I get a bit liberal with the volume control, and I have a bunch of newer 12" dance singles that push the bass limits of the vinyl format; needless to say, that can be an interesting combination :blink:

[grumpy]

I didn't mean to suggest that attempting to isolate the turntable from direct
vibration wasn't a good/worthwhile effort, just alternatives if you got stuck.

The reason I mentioned the dust cover was that the record itself can act as
a vibrating diaphragm and couple sound to the needle that way. You might
experiment if you have a dust cover.

50-60Hz would sound like a low frequency hum/buzz (lower than you can sing)
and could be from other, electrically conducted sources. I was thinking the
problem was lower in frequency... tonearm/cartridge resonances are usually
in the teens (Hz) or lower.

If the problem isn't level sensitive (volume control setting, not program),
you might have a tonearm/cartridge mismatch issue (high/low tonearm mass
w/ a high/low cartridge compliance) causing tracking problems... I didn't go back
to see if you described your 'rig.'

Hope you find a solution! :)

[jblnut]

You may be fighting some design issues with the Numark TT itself as well. If either the platter or base/plinth are prone to resonate you may never get this to go loud no matter how well you isolate it (the sound waves in the air will still affect it). I went through this with my Luxman - beautiful table that sounded superb at low levels. But once the volume went up, it rang and howled something awful, even after trying several things to physically isolate it from the rack. The Yamaha I'm using now, in exactly the same spot just sitting on the rack (no attempt to isolate it) will go extremely loud with no feedback.

Your mileage may vary, but you may be trying to solve the wrong problem here....

jblnut

[MikeBrewster77]

I didn't mean to suggest that attempting to isolate the turntable from direct vibration wasn't a good/worthwhile effort, just alternatives if you got stuck.

Nope, didn't take it that way at all :). I'm definitely open to different angles, and with all the great suggestions, I'm willing to try a combination of things until it's right.


The reason I mentioned the dust cover was that the record itself can act as a vibrating diaphragm and couple sound to the needle that way. You might experiment if you have a dust cover.

Excellent point. I've honestly never played a record with the dustcover attached, but it's worth a shot to see what happens.


50-60Hz would sound like a low frequency hum/buzz (lower than you can sing) and could be from other, electrically conducted sources. I was thinking the problem was lower in frequency... tonearm/cartridge resonances are usually in the teens (Hz) or lower.

It's probably a poor guess on my part, but I didn't think I was generating anything that low in my setup. I could be completely off base, though.


If the problem isn't level sensitive, you might have a tonearm/cartridge
mismatch issue (high/low tonearm mass w/ high/low cartridge compliance)
causing tracking problems.

Not a particularly expensive setup but it's a low mass tonearm coupled with a high compliance MM cartridge. They hypothetically should be compatible :confused:


Hope you find a solution! :)

Me too!!! :D


You may be fighting some design issues with the Numark TT itself as well. If either the platter or base/plinth are prone to resonate you may never get this to go loud no matter how well you isolate it (the sound waves in the air will still affect it).

Thanks for the input, and you're dead on. Could just be a function of the table, though I'm actually not running the Numark in my current setup. It's sitting in storage with about 10 other tables. :blink: I was considering a swap over to it as a potential quick fix only because it's a DJ grade TT which I thought should hypothetically be able to better handle vibration given its intended application. I believe it was supposed to be their rival product to the Technics SL-1200 series. Details here:
http://www.starlight-online.com/audio/numark/prott1.htm.

I bought it about a decade ago, and it probably has less than 1,000 hours on it.

All that said, I'm actually running an older JVC deck, ironically enough after having problems with my .... you guessed it - Luxman! :rolleyes: Big fan of their vintage stuff, and to your point, really beautiful looking table, but ran into a similar metallic ringing issue.

Hell, maybe I should try the boat anchor Phase Linear tangential tracking. If nothing else, the weight alone would work in its favor :rotfl:

Thanks again for all the input!!! It really is appreciated :)

[jblnut]

Can you run down the list of tables you have ? Maybe one will jump out at us that someone has used with good results in a loud environment.

jblnut

[Hoerninger]

Short of wall-mounting the TT (which I'd consider if I wasn't likely going to be moving soon)

Place the TT on a window board? (It is for a limited time because you are moving soon. ;) )
___________
Peter

[MikeBrewster77]

Can you run down the list of tables you have ? Maybe one will jump out at us that someone has used with good results in a loud environment.

jblnut

That's tough - they're actually all in storage not here, but at a relative's house. From memory, the ones that stand out are:

- Harman/Kardon T30
- Phase Linear Model 8000
- Numark Pro TT1
- Luxman PD-272
- Technics SL-B100
- JVC L-F41 (currently in use)

There's a late-80's Marantz too, but I just don't recall the model number, as well as a few generic models (a Realistic linear tracking, etc.) Obviously, I don't have any Linn's or SOTA's laying around, but ya work with what you got, right? (until you upgrade ... at which point you work with the new model ......... until you upgrade again at which point..........................)

[Mr. Widget]

From memory, the ones that stand out are:

- Harman/Kardon T30
- Phase Linear Model 8000
- Numark Pro TT1
- Luxman PD-272
- Technics SL-B100
- JVC L-F41 (currently in use)
You know...... kids are really getting into spinning vinyl and these old tables will all sell, why not turn that pile of unused gear into a single better turntable? You could reduce your feedback issue and help out a family member all at the same time.:D


Widget

[MikeBrewster77]

You know...... kids are really getting into spinning vinyl and these old tables will all sell, why not turn that pile of unused gear into a single better turntable? You could reduce your feedback issue and help out a family member all at the same time.:D
Widget

You are absolutely, 100% correct sir! I have so much vintage equipment around, I don't even know what to do with it all - about 6-7 receivers, a few integrated's, a couple pair of speakers, turntables out the wazoo - I still even have a double cassette deck laying around. :blink:

I've thought about throwing it all up on eBay, but I've never sold anything on there before. With 0 feedback, probably not going to get a whole heck of a lot of bites (I know I wouldn't buy from a new seller if I was in the market.) Same with Audiogon. Maybe I should just go the Craigslist route and see what happens???

[jblnut]

You know...... kids are really getting into spinning vinyl and these old tables will all sell, why not turn that pile of unused gear into a single better turntable? You could reduce your feedback issue and help out a family member all at the same time.:D


Widget

Not to mention some forum members :). I've been looking for a second table to put in my office for low-level listening during the work day.

Any interest in selling any of those ? PM me if so and we can go from there...


jblnut

[louped garouv]

depending on your TTs feet.....

would Isonoe replacement feet fit?

http://www.isonoe.com/

you cold also approximate something like this by using several ashtrays that have been wrapped in rubberbands...
http://pbellsound.com/shows/TopOnCodaStage.jpg

or build a platform for it to rest on that is suspended via rubberbands...

http://themusicliveson.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=291&d=1161754231

good luck!

[BMWCCA]

As long as we're still talking about it, here's the commercial version of the cut squash-ball solution: http://www.absoluteanalogue.co.uk/BSIsonodeFeet.htm

Though they seem to be targeting them for CD players and amps to improve the sound. :dont-know

http://www.hifiportal.co.uk/NewsImages/20071220-BrightStar.jpg

[MikeBrewster77]

4 Isonode Feet - $29.00

3 pack of squash balls - $8.99

Being able to brag about the latest impressively-named, esoteric, "high-tech" tweak to your system - PRICELESS! ;)

Truthfully, I wonder if there is any real difference between the "at-home" version, and the commercial solution? I'm cheap when it comes to tweaks, so I think I know which I'd try first :p

The rubberband solution is interesting. Damnit, I shouldn't have thrown away all of the ashtrays when I quit smoking.

Thanks once again for all the great suggestions. I think I have a good mix of different potential fixes at this point to keep me busy for a while :).

[louped garouv]

you can get those deepwell ashtrays at walmart for about $1 each

;)
i replace my rubberbands once a year for about $3...

could probably go longer between changing them,
but it's cheap enough for some piece of mind...

:)

[duaneage]

I used a large pad of 2 inch open cell foam to set the TT on. That solved all vibrations, but the tone arm can still pick up feedback if close enough to the speaker.