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mm54
06-27-2009, 05:14 AM
L300 SUMMIT use a 2235H (http://www.jblpro.com/pages/components/2235h.htm)and the B460 Passiv Subwoofer use 2245H (http://www.jblpro.com/pages/components/2245h.htm)
I wonder if it's interesting to use a JBL B460 (http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/specs/home-speakers/1983-b380-b460.htm) coupled with L300 SUMMIT ? there is a filter system JBL BX63A (http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical%20Sheet/BX63%20ts.pdf) with the B460 connected between the amp and speakers, this does not duplicate with 2235H of L300 ?
I have also OUT subwoofer on my Accuphase E203, and actually my L300 are connected directly on Speaker L and R.
I dont realy anderstand how the system can be connected if interesting ..
the JBLPrice (http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/reference/price-lists/1970-1999-prices.htm) for B460 on 1993 is $2150 has the same buying power as $3181,94 in 2009 (calculing with Inflation Calculator)

hjames
06-27-2009, 05:42 AM
L300 SUMMIT use a 2235H (http://www.jblpro.com/pages/components/2235h.htm)and the B460 Passiv Subwoofer use 2245H (http://www.jblpro.com/pages/components/2245h.htm)
I wonder if it's interesting to use a JBL B460 (http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/specs/home-speakers/1983-b380-b460.htm) coupled with L300 SUMMIT ? there is a filter system JBL BX63A (http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical%20Sheet/BX63%20ts.pdf) with the B460 connected between the amp and speakers, this does not duplicate with 2235H of L300 ?
I have also OUT subwoofer on my Accuphase E203, and actually my L300 are connected directly on Speaker L and R.
I dont realy anderstand how the system can be connected if interesting ..
the JBLPrice (http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/reference/price-lists/1970-1999-prices.htm) for B460 on 1993 is $2150 has the same buying power as $3181.94 in 2009 (calculing with Inflation Calculator)

(didn't you ask the same Q yesterday? - ah yes, you did - right here:
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=257314&postcount=91)

Probably would be interesting
B460 Subwoofer's 2245 can go lower than the 15s in an L300 system, fills in around the bottom, and Bx63a can put a little hump at the lower freqs to accentuate the bottom ...

Its all a money game anyway - how much did you have to spend?

BMWCCA
06-27-2009, 06:02 AM
Its all a money game anyway - how much did you have to spend?Or just go with a 4345 and save space! ;)

Fangio
06-27-2009, 07:15 AM
I dont realy anderstand how the system can be connected...
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=21164

JBL 4645
06-27-2009, 08:18 AM
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=21164

That was good link and interesting read. I especially liked this part from the manual. :bouncy:

The 2245H produces bass that is powerful and accurate. Reactive acoustical energy storage in the ported enclosure augments the cone’s output so that cone excursion is minimal-keeping distortion very low. In a typical listening environment, the B460 can generate sound pressure levels of 115 to 120dB. It has the power to recreate earthquakes and cannon shots, but it also reproduce the full harmonic textures of a contrabassoon or the subtlety of softly played tympani.

Seems good enough for Earthquake or Master and Commander :applaud:

mm54
06-28-2009, 01:06 AM
(didn't you ask the same Q yesterday? - ah yes, you did - right here:
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=257314&postcount=91)
Thank you hjames (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/member.php?u=3090) , I apologize , i have send a message to the [email protected] (http://172.16.1.3:8100/Session/4060-WWPbLlwqE08jtYP912NH/Message.wssp?Mailbox=Sent%20Items&MSG=6482)to delete this link
i am newby (Posts: 65) ..I am always pressed for a response from members of this forum.. be indulgent thank you

mm54
06-28-2009, 01:20 AM
thank you Fangio (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/member.php?u=2770) for the link !




Can you, please provide more information on this subject typically with diagrams.
if i anderstand i must add a amplifier for the B460 ? do you think i can connect directly to my Accuphase without BX63A
if someone using a B460 could make a connection diagram it would be easier for me and I might just be understanding if I need to add something to operate a B460 ..

Doc Mark
06-28-2009, 08:21 AM
Good Morning, Michel,

As I understand it, the BX63A is not only an electronic crossover, but also a special voltage drive, which boosts the signal to the 2245h at a specific place, and therefore gets the response that the B460 offers. Without it, I think that the system will not function as designed. I could be wrong, but that's how I've understood it to work. Best of luck, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

hjames
06-28-2009, 09:20 AM
Good Morning, Michel,

As I understand it, the BX63A is not only an electronic crossover, but also a special voltage drive, which boosts the signal to the 2245h at a specific place, and therefore gets the response that the B460 offers. Without it, I think that the system will not function as designed. I could be wrong, but that's how I've understood it to work. Best of luck, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

Opimax has a B460 that sounds real nice without the BX63/63A (Base eXtension) device.

The B380/B460 came out before the advent of home theatres when sub out ports on receivers weren't common.
The BS63/A has a couple functions, - allowed you to loop your left and right mains through so it could extract a summed Low pass channel to run your sub. You set the crossover point and the gain, and feed its out to a (mono) poweramp for the sub.
They do have a bump at the low end.

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Vintage%20JBL-UREI%20Electronics/UREI-%20BX63A%20ts.pdf

http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Owner%27s%20Manual/BX63om.pdf (http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Owner%27s%20Manual/BX63Aom.pdf)

You can also see discussion of the unit in the thread here:
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=21164

4313B
06-28-2009, 10:27 AM
As I understand it, the BX63A is not only an electronic crossover, but also a special voltage drive, which boosts the signal to the 2245h at a specific place, and therefore gets the response that the B460 offers. Without it, I think that the system will not function as designed. I could be wrong, but that's how I've understood it to work.Come on guys! We've covered this extensively. D.B. Keele? Ring any bells? All of you should know his name and be able to recognize it spelled forwards, backwards and upsidedown.

AES E-Library: A New Set of Sixth-Order Vented-Box Loudspeaker ... (http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=2500)

AES E-Library: A New Set of Sixth-Order Vented-Box Loudspeaker ... (http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=2690)

B460 (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4557&highlight=b460)

Keele designed the BX63 way back when he was working at JBL (After leaving EV. He's now at Harman-Becker along with Richard H. Small of Thiele-Small fame).

Don't let the title of the AES papers throw you with respect to the B380 and B460, they are quasi-third order alignments as are most high performance JBL loudspeaker systems due to their low Q transducers. Addition of the BX63 makes them quasi-fifth order. If you understand the concepts it all makes sense. One can choose to use the BX63 or not depending on boundary reinforcement in any given room.

Hoerninger
06-28-2009, 12:20 PM
AES E-Library: A New Set of Sixth-Order Vented-Box Loudspeaker ... (http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=2500)

D.B.Keele offers his AES papers on his own page:
http://www.xlrtechs.com/dbkeele.com/papers.htm


8. "A New Set of Sixth-Order Vented-Box Loudspeaker System Alignments," J. Audio Eng. Soc., (June 1975). (http://www.xlrtechs.com/dbkeele.com/PDF/Keele%20%281975-07%20AES%20Published%29%20-%20New%20Set%20of%20VB%20Alignments.pdf)

A new and useful set of low-frequency assisted alignments contain Thiele's sixth-order Butterworth (B/6) alignment as a central member. The new alignments provide the same low cutoff with moderate amplifier boost (+6 dB) and low out-of-band driver excursion as the assisted B/6 alignment 15 of Thiele. The method of alignment generation is based on shifts of driver suspension compliance. (http://www.xlrtechs.com/dbkeele.com/PDF/Keele%20%281975-07%20AES%20Published%29%20-%20New%20Set%20of%20VB%20Alignments.pdf)There is a lot more to read.
___________
Peter

4313B
06-28-2009, 12:29 PM
There is a lot more to read.Which, evidently, no one is doing anymore. :p


Well... they DO read Internet blogfests... :rotfl:

mm54
06-29-2009, 06:12 AM
can you tell me if this pattern of connection you feel good and make corrections THANKS
40535

hjames
06-29-2009, 06:14 AM
can you tell me if this pattern of connection you feel good and make corrections THANKS
40534


SHEMATIC

There is a missing C in your diagram ...
the word is Schematic -

No flames are meant, take it just a gentle comment ...

is it spelled differently en francais?

mm54
06-29-2009, 06:23 AM
SHEMATIC There is a missing C in your diagram ...
the word is Schematic -
thank you hjames (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/member.php?u=3090) schématique FR = Schematic US

I think to connection error :)

but you're right for C is identical in English and French

mm54
06-30-2009, 05:57 AM
it seems that when the B460 was released, it is expected to work with satellites whose frequency does not fall below 60Hz and the B460 to 30Hz/0db
I think the BX63A will flatten the frequency of my 2235H and my L300 will no longer work properly,
to do should be a filter that can adjust the frequencies of each speaker with overlapping frequencies in the bass 2235H down to 40Hz and 30Hz for the B460,I do not know if this type of filter is ?
especially is my analysis is correct?
thank you for your advice

speakerdave
06-30-2009, 07:09 AM
The BX63A will passively high pass the "satellites" so they and the subwoofer do not overlap. I doubt you would like it if they overlapped. You will not be losing anything by taking the lowest frequencies out of the L300's. The B460 can handle those very well all by itself. Besides, being free of the lowest frequencies, the L300's will more cleanly reproduce the upper bass and lower midrange.

The one thing that has changed since the day of the B460 is that JBL now considers it better to use multiple subwoofers rather than just one, but you could try one first and see if you get the performance you want that way, and add another later.

mm54
06-30-2009, 08:33 AM
Honestly, if you really want to get a wee bit more out of your L300's then just tune them down to 25 to 26 Hz, apply the BX63 with the high pass defeated and enjoy your newly created QB6 alignment. :p
* Especially in larger rooms where the room gain starts lower and the overall room response is more uniform.

what is QB6 ..

Thank you for these details,
I'm just curious but also interested in understanding the mechanism of sound reproduction without going into technical details that I do not understand.
A user point of view seems more relevant to me !
My room is 5X8x3H meters

mm54
06-30-2009, 08:45 AM
The one thing that has changed since the day of the B460, is that JBL now considers it better to use multiple subwoofers rather than just one, but you could try one first and see if you get the performance you want that way, and add another later.

thank you for informations, also i have the possibility to pickup new B460 with new reform for €1700 and i dont now if it is a good price for 2009 ..

it is also possible that one day I do the 5.1 and the B460 will be interesting for me but it would require a THX filter now to move in that direction (with a quality at least equal to what I currently) .. it's just a question

hjames
06-30-2009, 09:58 AM
what is QB6 ..

Thank you for these details,
I'm just curious but also interested in understanding the mechanism of sound reproduction without going into technical details that I do not understand.
A user point of view seems more relevant to me !
My room is 5X8x3H meters

AT some point, grasshopper, you need to read and think and ask thoughtful questions ...

As I used to tell the marketing types at the TV studio I worked at, years back:

"I wish I could change the laws of physics just for you, but ..."

Basically, either you get it, or you study more until you DO get it ...

But how will you understand if you chase the teacher away??

mm54
06-30-2009, 02:15 PM
Hi Hjames , I think you're right
I just want to say that I can not take a degree of sound engineer to listen music :)
some of you have years of experience and I find it easier to understand by taking the users views like you rather than trying to read books that I do not realy understand, I have trouble deciphering some posts and there is insufficient time for me ..

again thank you to all members who take the trouble to answer questions that should be easy and repetitive ..I hope my english is not to bad.. it is important for me to listen your comments, I appreciate your help

hjames
06-30-2009, 04:01 PM
Hi Hjames , I think you're right
I just want to say that I can not take a degree of sound engineer to listen music :)
some of you have years of experience and I find it easier to understand by taking the users views like you rather than trying to read books that I do not realy understand, I have trouble deciphering some posts and there is insufficient time for me ..

again thank you to all members who take the trouble to answer questions that should be easy and repetitive ..I hope my english is not to bad.. it is important for me to listen your comments, I appreciate your help


I have no advanced degree, but I spent nearly 20 years doing AV engineering work
around TV and cable tv systems ... before I got into web development ...
but I am not a design level engineer like 4313B or the JBL folks ...
so, I read A LOT here, and ask questions, and sometimes ask the louder ones
to explain things when I don't get them -
and sometimes I just let them talk and I listen, because I figure I won't get EVERYTHING,
but if I get a big part of it, thats all I really need.

mm54
07-04-2009, 12:37 AM
i am looking for a Bx63A ..
40625
picture from jarrods (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/member.php?u=631) thread2187 (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2187)

mm54
07-07-2009, 04:56 AM
B460 (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4557&highlight=b460)

Keele designed the BX63 way back when he was working at JBL (After leaving EV. He's now at Harman-Becker along with Richard H. Small of Thiele-Small fame).

Don't let the title of the AES papers throw you with respect to the B380 and B460, they are quasi-third order alignments as are most high performance JBL loudspeaker systems due to their low Q transducers. Addition of the BX63 makes them quasi-fifth order. If you understand the concepts it all makes sense. One can choose to use the BX63 or not depending on boundary reinforcement in any given room.

thank you 4313B , I just begin to understand

mm54
07-07-2009, 12:50 PM
Does anyone have an idea what a b460 in fair condition is worth today?

the same question 01-20-2005, 05:09 PM
and the reply from Zilch (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/member.php?u=793) thread4403 (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4403) :
If I'm sellin':

Poor = $200, maybe
Fair = $300
Good = $500
Excellent = $750
Mint = $1000

If I'm buyin':

"What'd you PAY for that worthless piece of crap? Didya get the crossover thingy with it? No WAY anybody's gonna pay to SHIP that obsolete beast anywhere...." :D

John
07-07-2009, 01:24 PM
Does anyone have an idea what a b460 in fair condition is worth today?




If you have to ask, chances are you can't afford one!;)

BMWCCA
07-07-2009, 01:47 PM
If you have to ask, chances are you can't afford one!;)People have thrown that answer at me for many years. It just ain't true. And always a little patronizing! :)

I asked a customer many decades ago what she was asking for her even-then vintage BMW car (3.0CS) I'd seen an ad for. Her reply was a bit more acerbic: "More than you can afford." I forced myself not to reply with the first thing that came into my mind. After all, it was in our store and she was a customer with other cars from us.

It didn't surprise me when I heard within a year that her husband had committed suicide. Pleasant woman.

But, to try to answer the question, I've watched B460s go for as little as $350 in need of surrounds and cabinetry work and without the BX63, to asking nearly ten-times that, as seen here: http://www.katzassaudio.com/speakers.html. And I seem to recall occasions here where several have dropped their jaws in reaction to what a BX63 brought on Ebay all by itself!

So the answer may not be "if you have to ask, you can't afford one" but more like "what are you willing to pay and how long are you willing to wait"? I got tired of looking for a deal on what I wanted and just figured, "screw it, I'm gonna enjoy what I want while I still can."

I hope you find what you're looking for. ;)

mm54
07-07-2009, 02:36 PM
So the answer may not be "if you have to ask, you can't afford one" but more like "what are you willing to pay and how long are you willing to wait"? I got tired of looking for a deal on what I wanted and just figured, "screw it, I'm gonna enjoy what I want while I still can."
I hope you find what you're looking for. ;)

there are philosophers on the forum and I am happy to this answer!
I say what I think


http://www.katzassaudio.com/speakers.html I have already consulted the link but I want from France or Germany (shipping cost)

Robh3606
07-07-2009, 03:26 PM
Does anyone have an idea what a b460 in fair condition is worth today?

Hello mm54

Build your own we have the plans. Get a 2245 basket get a fresh recone and if you can score a BX-63/63A so much the better. That way you end up with essentially a new sub.

Rob:)

hjames
07-07-2009, 04:09 PM
there are philosophers on the forum and I am happy to this answer!
I say what I think


http://www.katzassaudio.com/speakers.html I have already consulted the link but I want from France or Germany (shipping cost)




Yes, but he has a matched pair!:blink:

mm54
07-08-2009, 05:46 AM
Hello mm54Build your own we have the plans. Get a 2245 basket get a fresh recone and if you can score a BX-63/63A so much the better. That way you end up with essentially a new sub. Rob:)
Hi Rob,
it is also a possibility but i don't now if i can, I am not able to do that, this is a big job and i have also many other thing to do ...

I prefer to buy an original, it is more expensive but it is also an investment that I leave to my children and grandchildren

4313B
07-08-2009, 06:26 AM
is also an investment that I leave to my children and grandchildrenJust so long as they can carry it with them wherever they go. Kids hate to be tied to land lines or music boxes that need an AC cord much less 200 lb subwoofers. :rotfl:

hjames
07-08-2009, 06:30 AM
Just so long as they can carry it with them wherever they go. They hate to be tied to land lines or music boxes that need an AC cord much less 200 lb subwoofers. :rotfl:

yeah, yer grandkids have been here before, talking about those cool speakers they remember you used to enjoy so much. They look really cool and they're in really good shape - say, what do you think they are worth???
:applaud:

midlife
07-08-2009, 07:17 AM
Go for it, and it will further enhance the JBLness of your system. Spend a little time shopping for the pieces you would like to have and you might find them a little less costly than it appears now. :D I just bought a turntable, does it have a cartriage-no, do I have albums-no, do I have a place to put it-no...do I have it yea. Does it make sense; of course. If some is good and more is better, too much might be just enough.

mm54
07-09-2009, 08:07 AM
Just so long as they can carry it with them wherever they go. Kids hate to be tied to land lines or music boxes that need an AC cord much less 200 lb subwoofers. :rotfl:

yes, mainly to make me happy ..

I am like a child who looks at an object behind a window and dream of having

mm54
07-09-2009, 08:10 AM
Go for it, and it will further enhance the JBLness of your system. Spend a little time shopping for the pieces you would like to have and you might find them a little less costly than it appears now. Does it make sense; of course.

I appreciate and hope that luck will be with me

mm54
07-09-2009, 10:16 AM
hope that i can find one B460 , i must go to test before pickup ..

mm54
08-04-2009, 10:41 AM
difficult to find .. JBL BX63A crossover for B460 sub.

4313B
08-04-2009, 10:49 AM
Yeah, it's probably easier to either build one yourself or have one built for you. I'm buried otherwise I'd whip one out for you. I've posted the schematics numerous times. I think I also posted how to modify the 5234A/5235 to do the same thing.

We should probably make up a bunch of new circuit boards. It would be a nice little project for people, kind of like the neat little projects Rod Elliott (http://sound.westhost.com/projects.htm) makes available for folks. :yes: In fact, one of his projects might do the trick instead.

NashSue
11-17-2021, 03:46 AM
You are absolutely right! Thanks for the information!

hjames
11-18-2021, 03:09 AM
thank you Fangio (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/member.php?u=2770) for the link !


if i understand, i must add a amplifier for the B460 ? do you think i can connect directly to my Accuphase without BX63A
if someone using a B460 could make a connection diagram it would be easier for me and I might just be understanding if I need to add something to operate a B460 ..




Old thread, but since the original posting in 2009, I actually found a B460 for sale cheep, and had it shipped to me from Florida.
I did find a BX-63A a year or so later, but frankly I have been running it from the Sub output of an Integra DTC 9.8 PreProcessor
using a Harman Kardon Citation 22 Power Amp bridged to Mono, without the BX63A, and it plays VERY well that way!
I have 4 UREI 809A coaxial monitors in the system, and tho they don't go real deep on their own, they are crystal clear otherwise.

8989889899

My friend Steve built 2 of the standalone 2245 subwoofers for his home audio system, and drives them with Adcom monoblocks,
and they are downright impressive on their own.

rusty jefferson
11-18-2021, 05:36 AM
.....My friend Steve built 2 of the standalone 2245 subwoofers for his home audio system, and drives them with Adcom monoblocks,
and they are downright impressive on their own.
I think our man Steve has 4 of those bad boys in that closet now, doesn't he?:D

hjames
11-20-2021, 05:34 AM
I think our man Steve has 4 of those bad boys in that closet now, doesn't he?:D
Yep - couldn't find a picture of the gang of 4 in that closet!

svollmer
11-21-2021, 06:39 AM
Yep - couldn't find a picture of the gang of 4 in that closet!

That picture was a long time ago. I FINALLY got the room finished!

svollmer
11-21-2021, 06:40 AM
89915

speakerdave
11-22-2021, 01:37 PM
:) Glad to see the 2 ft by 2 ft pillar in the corner and I assume the others are similarly furnished.

svollmer
11-25-2021, 01:43 AM
:) Glad to see the 2 ft by 2 ft pillar in the corner and I assume the others are similarly furnished.

Yes, all four have 2x2 foot rigid fiberglass bass traps; floor to ceiling. One is about 2 feet short though because of a window. The two on the interior wall are open into the storage room so the bass goes in there and doesn’t come back. :)

Overall, bass traps are the one thing that I think made the most difference in the quality of sound in the room.

Odd
11-29-2021, 08:45 AM
What material do you have in the walls we see of bass traps?

svollmer
11-29-2021, 09:08 AM
It’s rigid fiberglass. I believe I used 3 lbs/cubic foot density. It came in 2” x 24” x 48” panels. I cut them all to 24” x 24”, stacked them floor-to-ceiling and covered them with grills my wife and I made. It did not over dampen the room, but the bass is really tight and almost the same no matter where you are in the room.

Odd
11-29-2021, 09:31 AM
Ok, so what we see are frames covered with fabric.

svollmer
12-02-2021, 10:05 AM
Ok, so what we see are frames covered with fabric..

Yes! If you look at the old picture Heather posted, you’ll see the yellow fiberglass.