To JuBaL or not to JuBaL!? That IS the question.

[medwardb]

Hello all,
below you see a pair of JBL outfitted custom speakers made back in the late 70's buy a very nice person. (..it makes a difference, you know)
And I now have a line on a nice pair of L65 cabs that I was thinking about fitting with the complement of these guys as two of the three drivers are
in line with the original L65 drivers. Or so I believe. (..please let me know if I'm barking up the wrong tree here, folks :biting: rarf!)
Anyway, the complement of the customs are: 2405 HF-Rads, 2105 mids, and 124H woofs, respectively. I've got to do a re-re-surround of the 124's as the 30 Hz tone didn't quite work well enough this time and one has developed a tiny bit of VC rub. So the 124 won't be being re-purposed but,
and here's the first question: Would the 2105 and 2405 be suitable in an L65? But really before that what I'd like to know is how do they REALLY sound?! I've heard a lot of different things about the Jubals but I personally have never heard them. Considering what I already have, which do sound pretty darn nice with their hand fab'd crossovers and cabs,
would re-fitting the L-65 with these drivers instead (..and the proper woofers)be a step in an audiologically positive direction?
(..I know this is a kind of hard question to pose considering none of you have heard the customs I use here now but I think that the reasoning is sound so all posting their personal postulates will be positively aPPreciated!
(..eeuw, now i have to clean my screen again!)
NOTE** I'm having s bit of a prob w/ my browser currently so I'll post the pics momentarily***

Thankx ALL,

-MEDz> *

[midlife]

I have recently re-upped on my stereo gear. Bought alot of stuff and getting re-acquainted with critical listening. Any how the speakers I wound up with are L166s and L65s. The 166s for my ears are incredible, excellent xover performance and equally impressive driver performance. Interestingly the 166s need very little presence and brilliance adjustment as well as little eq at the preamp. The L65s are no where near as impressive.:(:(:( Sorry, maybe you will have better luck.

[medwardb]

I have recently re-upped on my stereo gear. Bought alot of stuff and getting re-acquainted with critical listening. Any how the speakers I wound up with are L166s and L65s. The 166s for my ears are incredible, excellent xover performance and equally impressive driver performance. Interestingly the 166s need very little presence and brilliance adjustment as well as little eq at the preamp. The L65s are no where near as impressive.:(:(:( Sorry, maybe you will have better luck.

I've heard some pretty definitive poo-poo's of the L65 around here so I'll just add that one to the list !

Thankx for the opp.

-M> *

[mike]

Jubals are actually a pretty good sounding speaker in my opinion. With the presence and brilliance controls set properly they are surprisingly transparent and seamless. They also image pretty well even though the driver layout would imply otherwise. They are also one of the most sought after JBL's from the 70's.

Mike

[midlife]

They are also one of the most sought after JBL's

Mike
Thats why I gave them a shot...maybe I haven't positioned them correctly and/or haven't found a suitable bias? So far my ears are saying, "are we there yet?"

[SEAWOLF97]

The 166s for my ears are incredible, excellent xover performance and equally impressive driver performance. Interestingly the 166s need very little presence and brilliance adjustment as well as little eq at the preamp. The L65s are no where near as impressive.

there is a member here who rarely contributes -Magnepan- , a long time friend of mine who has 70 some odd JBL pairs ...owning both the L65 & L166 , he made the exact same summation/conclusions to me. :bouncy: and declared the L166 as his favorite JBL bookshelf.

He also said the Jubals sounded poor unless they were on stands at least 22 inches, and once described the HF as being able to cut glass.
I have no personal experience with the L65, but really enjoy my 2 pairs of L166's.

[4313B]

He also said the Jubals sounded poor unless they were on stands at least 22 inches, and once described the HF as being able to cut glass.It was admittedly a poorly balanced system. The whole design was kind of silly for a "high performance" loudspeaker system. It was a very nice looking end table. The Lancer 55 components were arguably better suited to that box. They also made for a decent subwoofer box when loaded with a 121A/H.

Considering what I already have, which do sound pretty darn nice with their hand fab'd crossovers and cabs,
would re-fitting the L-65 with these drivers instead (..and the proper woofers)be a step in an audiologically positive direction? :no:

Start looking for a pair of 112's (L212) or 2108's (4315) and build yourself a custom pair of mirror imaged 4315B's with cc networks.

[midlife]

Well since we are talking about the Jubals, anyone have recommendations to improve their performance. Location, heigth, tilt, L pad adj...more suitable for larger rooms ie far field listening...any help is appreciated. :)

[midlife]

[quote=4313B;256797]It was admittedly a poorly balanced system.
Poorly combined drivers? Xovers asked to cover mismatched drivers? What could I do to overcome some of these issues? Might consider spending a little to apply accepted remedies.

[BMWCCA]

Start looking for a pair of 112's (L212) or 2108's (4315) and build yourself a custom pair of mirror imaged 4315B's with cc networks.:confused: Where does that 8" mid-range fit in an L65 cabinet?

[mike]

Adjust the tweeter to -3 dB and the midrange to around -2 dB and you should get a fairly flat sound. The bass is something you either have to live with or you can cut it back with tone controls to get rid of some of the boominess. As others have suggested stands will help the bass but the speaker just dosn't lend itself to stand mounting very well or look right on a stand. Also keeping them on the floor seems to keep the tweeter from biting into your ears as they can. Most importantly enjoy them for what they are, a nice looking nice sounding collectable speaker. The L166a's I had were one of the most offensive sounding speakers I ever owned. Even with the LPads adjusted they were harsh compared to the Jubals and did not image at all. The fact that the Jubal images somewhat ok surprises me though as the driver layout is roughly the same as the L166's .The L166's did have better bass than the Jubals though.

Mike

[midlife]

Adjust the tweeter to -3 dB and the midrange to around -2 dB and you should get a fairly flat sound. The bass is something you either have to live with or you can cut it back with tone controls to get rid of some of the boominess. As others have suggested stands will help the bass but the speaker just dosn't lend itself to stand mounting very well or look right on a stand. Also keeping them on the floor seems to keep the tweeter from biting into your ears as they can. Most importantly enjoy them for what they are, a nice looking nice sounding collectable speaker. The L166a's I had were one of the most offensive sounding speakers I ever owned. Even with the LPads adjusted they were harsh compared to the Jubals and did not image at all. The fact that the Jubal images somewhat ok surprises me though as the driver layout is roughly the same as the L166's .The L166's did have better bass than the Jubals though.

Mike
Thanks Mike, Interesting observations, Room accoustics/size, listening material, personal preferences, front end equip, and speaker condition surely play a part in the end result. I will try a little tweaking with the 65s before pulling the plug....:)

[4313B]

:confused: Where does that 8" mid-range fit in an L65 cabinet?You quoted me but didn't read the quote. :p

Forget the L65 cabinet...

Start looking for a pair of 112's (L212) or 2108's (4315) and build yourself a custom pair of mirror imaged 4315B's with cc networks.He already has the 124/2203, LE5/2105 and 077/2405. It's just a thought is all. I know a couple other forum members are currently playing around with 4315's.

[4313B]

The L166a's I had were one of the most offensive sounding speakers I ever owned. Even with the LPads adjusted they were harsh compared to the Jubals and did not image at all. The fact that the Jubal images somewhat ok surprises me though as the driver layout is roughly the same as the L166's .The L166's did have better bass than the Jubals though.The 066 and "harshness" was a direct result of poor back end electronics. It was a known issue. The 066 was a real GIGO driver to the dismay of many. It was used in the L166 and L212 as well as the 4313 and could sound absolutely terrible with poor electronics. It sounded really nice with a Citation XX.

The poor imaging was due to the 6 dB/octave network without the requisite vertical driver array.

The better bass response was due to getting the woofer up off the floor where it didn't belong. It's "ok" for subwoofers to hug the floor but that's about it.

[midlife]

The 066 and "harshness" was a direct result of poor back end electronics. It was a known issue. The 066 was a real GIGO driver to the dismay of many. It was used in the L166 and L212 as well as the 4313 and could sound absolutely terrible with poor electronics.

The poor imaging was due to the 6 dB/octave network without the requisite vertical driver array.

The better bass response was due to getting the woofer up off the floor where it didn't belong. It's "ok" for subwoofers to hug the floor but that's about it.
So all common cabinet speaker systems will perfrom better when raising the cab to get the woofer de-coupled from the floor? Generally speaking, how much lift is beneficial?

[4313B]

So all common cabinet speaker systems will perfrom better when raising the cab to get the woofer de-coupled from the floor? Generally speaking, how much lift is beneficial?Observe where Greg put the LE14H in the 240Ti and L250/250Ti.

[midlife]

Observe where Greg put the LE14H in the 240Ti and L250/250Ti.
Sorry I am not familiar with Greggs project, and what is a GIGO driver?

[hjames]

Sorry I am not familiar with Greggs project, and what is a GIGO driver?

Look up the speaker he mention in the Library here ...
240TI
L250/250TI
and GIGO? Its an old computer term ...

Garbage
In
Garbage
Out

GIGO

[SEAWOLF97]

The 066 and "harshness" was a direct result of poor back end electronics. It was a known issue. The 066 was a real GIGO driver to the dismay of many. It was used in the L166 and L212 as well as the 4313 and could sound absolutely terrible with poor electronics. It sounded really nice with a Citation XX.
The better bass response was due to getting the woofer up off the floor where it didn't belong. It's "ok" for subwoofers to hug the floor but that's about it.

I have directly compared the 066 with 035ti (& a's) and it does very well ...
fortunately (un ?) have never tried the GIGO setup ..only midgrade and above and it has always been sweet and dynamic for me.

EVERY bookshelf speaker I own sounds better "off the floor" ..which is a problem with the L65 ...it does better, but really isnt designed to be raised.

The L166 is a sleeper IMHO ....a nice but usually overlooked package and a bargain among used JBL's ....frequently selling for much less than the L-1:o::o:'s and other lesser performing models.

[midlife]

ruhh ro, so far I like the 066s, haven't had the chance to really crank the Horizons yet though*?

[BMWCCA]

You quoted me but didn't read the quote. :p Exactly right. Too many M-prefaced user names all talking L65s at the same time!

:blink:

[medwardb]

I'd like to take a moment to thank everyone that has taken time to input their opinion on this matter. Though way too much to quote individually please know all input has been taken into consideration. And all is indeed appreciated. I must add that I've always wanted a pair of 4315's and if I already have 3/4 of the driver complement a pair may be within my grasp if I can find the remaining constituents. Certainly worth considering but first,
I've to finish the 4313's :bouncy:
..rarin' to go..!

Thanks again ALL,

-Mark> *

PS, I couldn't find the better of the photos of my current 'custom' speakers, not that they're needed, but they are the ones in the 'Avatar' image at left.

[SEAWOLF97]

all this talk abt L166's and I fondly started remembering that I really do like them , so pulled the ADS L1290 towers out of the LR and replaced with the 166A's and it was a big improvement ...more dynamic at low gain....and two 8's dont equal one 12 ....:D:applaud:

[midlife]

all this talk abt L166's and I fondly started remembering that I really do like them , so pulled the ADS L1290 towers out of the LR and replaced with the 166A's and it was a big improvement ...more dynamic at low gain....and two 8's dont equal one 12 ....:D:applaud:
Two thumbs up, the A B comparison (of the 65s VS 166s) may have raised more questions than answering them. When the woofers from my 96s are done, and given adequate break in time, I am going to offer my opinions on an A, B, C, comparo***:blah::biting::bouncy:.........same bat time, same bat channel

[midlife]

Two thumbs up, the A B comparison (of the 65s VS 166s) may have raised more questions than answering them. When the woofers from my 96s are done, and given adequate break in time, I am going to offer my opinions on an A, B, C, comparo***:blah::biting::bouncy:.........same bat time, same bat channel
With the wifey and lil uns out the house, I have now been able to "lay into" the 166s and my conclusion so far is that they do a terrific job at low to moderate db levels and becoming slightly stage struck at more demanding listening levels giving a pretty good aquital of their alleged short comings. No abject disappointments :)....supported with a Crown DC300 & a Straight Line Two pre

[BMWCCA]

all this talk abt L166's and I fondly started remembering that I really do like them So, what was the thinking at JBL that had the L166 and the L112 being sold at the same time (according the the price lists on this site, in 1978)? Was the L112 just the replacement for the L166 and the leftover L166s overlapped the intro of the newer model? :dont-know

I wasn't paying too much attention at the time when the L166 was available because I was a recent college grad scratching to earn a living and didn't purchase my L112s until about 1982.

[midlife]

JBL, most likely at that time, was realising a boom in recognition and sales. Basking in a rightfully deserved spotlight, offerings would have multiplied, giving consumers a greater chance to experience JBLs' instrinsic goals. We now bally back and forth degrees of appreciation. Chances are it was a heady time that spurred offerings which helped to elevate JBL to the status that todays speaker audiophiles are not willing to ignore. What endears JBL to posterity is their ability to offer out of reach high end to those who will subscribe, along with stunning systems for consumers that can obtain JBLs more accesible speakers. In todays world that routnely accepts the below average, a remarkable experience demands notice

[4313B]

So, what was the thinking at JBL that had the L166 and the L112 being sold at the same time (according the the price lists on this site, in 1978)? Was the L112 just the replacement for the L166 and the leftover L166s overlapped the intro of the newer model?Pretty much. The L112 was introduced as the Century II with a new 044 HF and 128H SFG ferrite LF. The L150A and L96 quickly followed. While the newer copper coiled 044 didn't have quite the top end extension of the older aluminum coiled 066, it had better power handling and wasn't as susceptible to power compression.

[BMWCCA]

Pretty much. The L112 was introduced as the Century II with a new 044 HF and 128H SFG ferrite LF. The L150A and L96 quickly followed. While the newer copper coiled 044 didn't have quite the top end extension of the older aluminum coiled 066, it had better power handling and wasn't as susceptible to power compression.Pricing seems odd, if we can trust this site's price list reference. In '78 the L166 cost $60 more than the L112, or 13% more. The L65 was $115 more than the L166, or 23% more. At it's introduction in 1979 the L150 was only $85 more than the L166, or an extra 17%. And yet for 1981 the L150A cost $165 more than the L112, or an additional 31% more. It would seem the L112 was marketed at a substantially lower price than the L166 it was replacing. Was it that much cheaper to produce, with the newer woofer and HF, or just marketed to a price point? :dont-know

And are you folk comparing the L166 to L65s or the L65A which has the same LF driver as the L166, the improvements to which are lauded here: http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/specs/home-speakers/1976-l166/page3.jpg

[SEAWOLF97]

And are you folk comparing the L166 to L65s or the L65A which has the same LF driver as the L166

or the L166A with also a diff LF driver ?

[midlife]

JBL, most likely at that time, was realising a boom in recognition and sales. Basking in a rightfully deserved spotlight, offerings would have multiplied, giving consumers a greater chance to experience JBLs' instrinsic goals. We now bally back and forth degrees of appreciation. Chances are it was a heady time that spurred offerings which helped to elevate JBL to the status that todays speaker audiophiles are not willing to ignore. What endears JBL to posterity is their ability to offer out of reach high end to those who will subscribe, along with stunning systems for consumers that can obtain JBLs more accesible speakers. In todays world that routnely accepts the below average, a remarkable experience demands notice
My heartfelt offering goes unoticed, what have I done wrong

[MikeBrewster77]

My heartfelt offering goes unoticed, what have I done wrong

Oh relax - you haven't done anything wrong! :p

There's a lot to be said for our collective brand loyalty, the quality of JBL's offerings (past and present) and for the passion we feel for them. There's also the inevitable fact that JBL (and later Harman) had/has a business to run. I mean, let's be honest here, this brand evolved over the years to something beyond what the founder himself probably ever could have envisioned.

There's also the reality that the JBL brand today is pretty heavily stratified (i.e., there's a low end, and there's a high end, but there ain't a whole lot in between - at least in North America.)

So, there's nothing wrong in your thoughts per se, but perhaps they were a bit lofty in that any business still has to manage to a bottom line to remain viable. With that in mind I'm going to guess that (as was reinforced in an earlier post by someone who would know) the brief co-existence of the L166 and L112 was simply a transitional period in JBL's product line at the time.

I truly admire your enthusiasm for the moniker, just don't take it too personally if there are pragmatic counterpoints that occasionally come up.

[midlife]

Oh relax - you haven't done anything wrong! :p

There's a lot to be said for our collective brand loyalty, the quality of JBL's offerings (past and present) and for the passion we feel for them. There's also the inevitable fact that JBL (and later Harman) had/has a business to run. I mean, let's be honest here, this brand evolved over the years to something beyond what the founder himself probably ever could have envisioned.

There's also the reality that the JBL brand today is pretty heavily stratified (i.e., there's a low end, and there's a high end, but there ain't a whole lot in between - at least in North America.)

So, there's nothing wrong in your thoughts per se, but perhaps they were a bit lofty in that any business still has to manage to a bottom line to remain viable. With that in mind I'm going to guess that (as was reinforced in an earlier post by someone who would know) the brief co-existence of the L166 and L112 was simply a transitional period in JBL's product line at the time.

I truly admire your enthusiasm for the moniker, just don't take it too personally if there are pragmatic counterpoints that occasionally come up.
I know; but what if my refoams are not as good as everyone elses, and my crossovers, I am so very concerned about my crossovers, they appear to be ok but how does one really know? My Jubals, have I insulted them or could it be the opposite? The 166s sound really good to me, but I think theres a chance someone else may hear obvious flaws, then what? So I have made a list of keepers, sellers and traders, I would like forum members help in prioritising my list, and even if I should sell everything to start anew I certainly am willing to do that! Unless there is an obvious keeper to build around. Even if that is only my interconnects or maybe the AC stabilizer I haven't tested yet. But I mean I could quantify its performance with the new stuff if the new stuff needs a power conditioner. And I have been careful to power the amp up only after giving my other components the opportunity to be comfortable with their asigned tasks, while trying to take into consideration summer time power demands. Thank fully my family limits my stereo usage, where would I and my stereo be without them! Thank God for small favors. If I listen to my turntable by putting my ear close to the stylus and not using any amplification will the neutral electronic load harm my equipment seriously, temporarily, or permanently. My air condition recently suffered a capacitor failure, does this portend future problems for my stereo? I could be pragmatic, I know I coulddddddddd ;)

[MikeBrewster77]

The 166s sound really good to me, but I think theres a chance someone else may hear obvious flaws, then what?

Are they the ones that are listening to it every day in your environment, with your upstream equipment, with your chosen music playing through it, and with your sound preferences? No? :no: Do you intend on entertaining the staff of Stereophile magazine any time soon? No? :no: Then does it really matter? :dont-know

Here's my take: You've recently joined a forum that focuses on both the technical and the "pragmatic." By viewing various threads and posts, you're gleaning knowledge about the substantial engineering effort that goes into loudspeakers, and - realizing that you're working with aging equipment - you have concerns. That's likely to be expected, and you certainly can't be faulted for that. But.........

This hobby is supposed to be about enjoying music. You're heading down a slippery slope where the equipment that reproduces the music usurps the music itself, and that's not necessarily a good place to be.

We all make compromises, be them budgetary, environmental, etc.; it's just the nature of the beast. From my experience, focusing too strongly on what else is out there, is "better," and where the deficiencies in your current setup might be ultimately detracts from the experience. Not saying you shouldn't consider upgrades when they're available and within your means, but continuously focusing on the next upgrade can only serve to obfuscate the pleasure that comes from the music itself!

There's a lot of truly valuable information here, but keep it in perspective and don't let it take the fun out of things. As I might have mentioned earlier, just RELAX, and for crap's sake, enjoy the music already! ;)

[midlife]

Are they the ones that are listening to it every day in your environment, with your upstream equipment, with your chosen music playing through it, and with your sound preferences? No? :no: Do you intend on entertaining the staff of Stereophile magazine any time soon? No? :no: Then does it really matter? :dont-know

Here's my take: You've recently joined a forum that focuses on both the technical and the "pragmatic." By viewing various threads and posts, you're gleaning knowledge about the substantial engineering effort that goes into loudspeakers, and - realizing that you're working with aging equipment - you have concerns. That's likely to be expected, and you certainly can't be faulted for that. But.........

This hobby is supposed to be about enjoying music. You're heading down a slippery slope where the equipment that reproduces the music usurps the music itself, and that's not necessarily a good place to be.

We all make compromises, be them budgetary, environmental, etc.; it's just the nature of the beast. From my experience, focusing too strongly on what else is out there, is "better," and where the deficiencies in your current setup might be ultimately detracts from the experience. Not saying you shouldn't consider upgrades when they're available and within your means, but continuously focusing on the next upgrade can only serve to obfuscate the pleasure that comes from the music itself!

There's a lot of truly valuable information here, but keep it in perspective and don't let it take the fun out of things. As I might have mentioned earlier, just RELAX, and for crap's sake, enjoy the music already! ;)
Of course. I'm listening to Cat Mother and the all night news boys, and its as good as it was 30+ years ago :D

[hjames]

Of course. I'm listening to Cat Mother and the all night news boys, and its as good as it was 30+ years ago :D

Bravo!
... to quote a famous band leader ... "If it sounds good, it IS good"
and that truly is the bottom line - or, as another member sez:
"Its all about the music"!

[Doc Mark]

Hey, Midlife,

I think Mike has the right idea. Just enjoy what you have, and don't worry about the rest of it. JBL is loved by most of those that inhabit this neat forum, but in different ways. Some prefer the older "Legacy" systems, others go for the brand new SOTA, and others have a hodge-podge of whatever they've found at the most recent swap meet/garage sale!! I know that, no matter how often I rave about how fantastic our L300's sound to us, there will be those that just don't care for that specific speaker, and they have all their ducks in a row as to "why" they don't like it. That's all well and good, and exactly as it should be! I don't take offense at their dislike, or distain, (or whatever else you'd like to call it) of our beloved L300's, and Sweet Bride and I still enjoy then, nay, LOVE them, everytime we fire them up!!! Just enjoy your JBL's, and don't worry about what anyone else thinks of them. Yes, by all means, learn from the many LH members who know far more than many of the rest of us will ever know. But, realize that YOUR ears are the ones you have to please, and not theirs. Also, realize that JBL is very probably never going to make a venture into recreation of their wonderful Legacy systems, mostly because, on the top end, design criteria has vastly improved, and they have continued to create better and better systems, even if many of us cannot afford them. Also, on the bottom end, most Americans simply will not pay what JBL would have to charge for a really good low-end, or even mid-level system. Those uneducated, unappreciative, unwashed teeming masses are the ones that buy Bose, and other such systems.... 'cause those systems are cheap, cheap, CHEAP.... and, because, to the masses, they sound good. To us, of course, they are pure crap, for the most part.

Have fun with your JBL's, and rave all you want about how much you love them! Hey, I do, and even if some tire of reading my praise of our old L300's, there are still others that feel just the same was as do Sweet Bride and me, and love their own L300's, too!! Name the JBL model, and you will find the same situation, my Friend! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[midlife]

Hey, Midlife,

I think Mike has the right idea. Just enjoy what you have, and don't worry about the rest of it. JBL is loved by most of those that inhabit this neat forum, but in different ways. Some prefer the older "Legacy" systems, others go for the brand new SOTA, and others have a hodge-podge of whatever they've found at the most recent swap meet/garage sale!! I know that, no matter how often I rave about how fantastic our L300's sound to us, there will be those that just don't care for that specific speaker, and they have all their ducks in a row as to "why" they don't like it. That's all well and good, and exactly as it should be! I don't take offense at their dislike, or distain, (or whatever else you'd like to call it) of our beloved L300's, and Sweet Bride and I still enjoy then, nay, LOVE them, everytime we fire them up!!! Just enjoy your JBL's, and don't worry about what anyone else thinks of them. Yes, by all means, learn from the many LH members who know far more than many of the rest of us will ever know. But, realize that YOUR ears are the ones you have to please, and not theirs. Also, realize that JBL is very probably never going to make a venture into recreation of their wonderful Legacy systems, mostly because, on the top end, design criteria has vastly improved, and they have continued to create better and better systems, even if many of us cannot afford them. Also, on the bottom end, most Americans simply will not pay what JBL would have to charge for a really good low-end, or even mid-level system. Those uneducated, unappreciative, unwashed teeming masses are the ones that buy Bose, and other such systems.... 'cause those systems are cheap, cheap, CHEAP.... and, because, to the masses, they sound good. To us, of course, they are pure crap, for the most part.

Have fun with your JBL's, and rave all you want about how much you love them! Hey, I do, and even if some tire of reading my praise of our old L300's, there are still others that feel just the same was as do Sweet Bride and me, and love their own L300's, too!! Name the JBL model, and you will find the same situation, my Friend! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc
Thanks Doc, I am enjoying my system thoroughly, and the peoples enthusiasm on this forum is terrific. I hope to have my permanent install completed in the near future and will be posting some pics...have a good one