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4313B
06-08-2004, 08:07 AM
Anyone else have any experience with these puppies?

SoniCaps at GR-Research (http://www.gr-research.com/SoniCap.htm)

Sonic Craft (http://www.soniccraft.com/parts/capacitors.htm)

Regis
06-08-2004, 11:29 AM
The guys at AudioAsylum seem to like them and compare them favorably with Auricaps, etc, etc

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=speakers&n=154475&highlight=sonicaps&r=&session=

Having ordered a pair of 3.0 uf Sonicaps for my L-112 X-overs, to parallel the C1 Midrange cap and bring it up to the 16.5 uF value of the vaunted 3113b X-over (Thanks, Giskard for the excellent info), it's going to be hard to tell as this is going to be a whole new X-over for the L-150's.

JohnH
07-05-2004, 07:44 AM
Giskard, did you ever get a chance to try the Sonicaps? Anyone else?

Regis
07-06-2004, 05:45 PM
I tried them out on the L-112 X-over. They were expensive. I ended up paying about $12 apiece for them, including shipping (they were well packed). The construction is top notch, good appearance, extra long leads. They don't look cheap. I'm glad I went this route, because the L-112 x-over is super well made, almost pro quality (compared to my L-110 X-overs with cold solder joints, sloppy but workable construction, et-al).

While I never heard the X-overs without the new caps, there certainly wasn't any degradation of sound, because I was really just reformulating the L-112 into a 3113B crossover, making the 13uf C1 into a 16 uf cap. I'm happy with the results.

Ian Mackenzie
10-12-2004, 08:10 PM
A nice review of some quality capacitors, and a few surprises.

Ian


http://home.zonnet.nl/geenius/Cap.html

Earl K
10-13-2004, 09:06 AM
Yep,,, - There were some very interesting opinions expressed.

I'll repost this url which has a more simplistic but nice "overview on many Namebrand Caps" (http://ldsg.snippets.org/appdx-ec.php3) .

I always enjoy a reviewers' comments that include "DIY'ers spend ridiculous amounts of money for voodoo caps, " or " Some well-regarded brands do sell exactly the sort of flooby dust that the preceding discussion attempts to debunk."

It's always healthy to get a different perspective. :D

Also, here's a site that puts "capacitors/dielectrics through the oscilloscope" (http://members.aol.com/sbench102/caps.html) . It's nice to see some science,actually applied to this extremely "nuanced" area.


There: Now some opinions from 2 quite articulate "devils-advocates" have been included in the discussion.

<. Earl K

p.s. - I love capacitors - They do change everthing ! :)

Don C
10-13-2004, 09:18 AM
That second article is excellent. The distortion is much easier to see than I would have expected. I gotta get rid of those NPEs.

4313B
10-13-2004, 09:28 AM
"Even more detail and seperation can be created by bypassing them with an MKP1837 (a good tweak for any capacitor!)"

If anyone cares, now would be the time to aquire them and try them in the Project May networks... I'll leave it up to someone else to purchase them and send them to Mr. Widget in San Francisco.

Earl K
10-13-2004, 10:00 AM
Vishay Tech Sheet 1

Earl K
10-13-2004, 10:01 AM
Vishay Tech Sheet 2

Earl K
10-13-2004, 10:18 AM
Vishay MKP 1837

Earl K
10-13-2004, 10:24 AM
Vishay KP 1830 ( Film & Foil ) bypass

Mr. Widget
10-13-2004, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by Earl K

p.s. - I love capacitors - They do change everthing ! :)

Thanks Ian and Earl for those interesting articles. I agree that caps do change the sound, but frequently I can't say Yeah baby that's the one!

Typically it is more of a well, it's different. Of course I am not talking about 50 cent NPEs.

Widget

Ian Mackenzie
10-13-2004, 04:08 PM
A guy called Klaus on the diyaudio.com forums has recently tried the 1837 using Panasonic FC electros and says they make the right kind of difference. He also tried Wina's and other small value capacitors and also recommends cascading Mundorf Supreme 0.1 uf in some applications.

The thing is to get the right combination of characteristics that will not react badly with the main capacitors. That said imho you need a reasonable good main capacitor to start with.


I don't think any of this is new stuff but is certainly worth trying with the Project.

Ian

4313B
10-13-2004, 04:34 PM
Yeah, my only hesitation is putting a metallized 'anything' in parallel with the Sonicaps. The whole point of using them is to get away from metallized dielectrics. A top quality film and foil bypass maybe, but a metallized polypropylene? Anyway, you guys can try whatever comes to mind. We might all be surprised!

scott fitlin
10-13-2004, 04:35 PM
Typically it is more of a well, it's different. Of course I am not talking about 50 cent NPEs.

Widget


I, also, have purchased expensive caps, and they do sound different.

But better? Havent found the " one " that makes me say, yeah, baby, either.

:confused:

JohnH
10-13-2004, 04:45 PM
I switched out a Solen 20uf cap on my 2441s with a Sonicap of the same value. I would say that the difference was definitely an improvement. The character of the change was pretty much as advertised.

I also replaced a 1uf Relcap on my horn tweeter with a 1uf Audiocap Theta. Another definite improvement. With the Relcap, nothing coming out of the tweeter was intelligible. Garbage out. The Theta changed all that.

Ian Mackenzie
10-13-2004, 05:20 PM
Sounds like a Capital idea..lol

Ian

Earl K
10-13-2004, 07:02 PM
,,, the Sonicaps. The whole point of using them is to get away from metallized dielectrics. A top quality film and foil bypass maybe, but a metallized polypropylene?

I do agree with those sentiments , - though isn't the actual makeup of the SoniCap still a mystery ?


I, also, have purchased expensive caps, and they do sound different. I'm still fooling around with surplus stuff. In the last 14 months of effort , I've foundout some neat stuff - though not very useful to this forum since most of these caps are n/a.


That said imho you need a reasonable good main capacitor to start with. I agree with that to a point as long as "good" isn't misconstrued as meaning "expensive" .

<> EarlK:)

Ian Mackenzie
10-14-2004, 05:02 AM
I have given this some thought and logically if the tweeter gives us the most sense of space and detail and it uses the smallest value (least expensive) then buy the best you can get.

The horn/mid can then be average / good quality bypassed with small 0.1 +0.01 high quality bypass.

ie UHF 1.00/1.5 buy Theta audio cap, bypass with 0.01 if needed.

Horn 6.00-12.00 Sonicap and bypass with Theta 0.01

Midrange 20-80 uf Solen or North Creek or Axon, bypass with 0.1 Theta and 0.01 Theta

My point here is spread the funds according area of importance rather than a linear spread based on value and brand.

Most of the fine resolution seems to me at least to come from the highs so why compromise when the small values are say about $10-12 each. It appears from our links you can improve the performance and transparency of larger values used by the horns/midrange by cascading mylar or metalised PPM with small high quality value bypass caps

Earl K
10-14-2004, 05:34 AM
My point here is spread the funds according area of importance rather than a linear spread based on value and brand.

- Yeh, that makes a lot of sense .

For instance;

I don't use DC blocking caps on my compression drivers. The 2 cap types that "I hear " the most are : some Siemens .022 (or twin DC- biased .043 ) uf Polystyrene "Passive Line Level High-Pass" caps , and the cap found in my series RC filter which acts as a MidRange suppression / HF boost . This single cap (@ 3 uf ) technically crosses in around 6625 hz but still has an audible ( nuanced ) effect down to about an octave below that crossover point. I find spectral changes in these upper harmonics will completely dominate the overall presentation and voicing of my 2 way system.

This ability of one 3uf capacitor to drive the final voicing of a system contines to surprise me .

<. Earl K
Ê

gerard
10-14-2004, 04:40 PM
hello

have you seen this link :http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=22819&perpage=10&highlight=&pagenumber=4

and the page before ....

Just a question : It seems in Usa people do not speak so much about mundorf supreme silver oil.

It seems also it is the very best of the caps .... even if expensive nobody says it is bad , in all forums they say the sound really improve ....

Well I do not knwo so much about it but it seems if I want the Best of it I have to go to mundorf ....

Gerard

Earl K
10-15-2004, 07:08 AM
Hi Gerard

Thanks for the link to that thread over in the diyAudio forum - it was an interesting banter of sorts .

As it happens, the polypropylene film & foil bypass caps that I use are made by F-DYNE (http://www.usafilmcaps.com/) . MY old surplus F-Dynes' are a PPA model that doesn't show up on that web site ( which is pretty limited in scope ). Additionally, a lot of my Polystyrene caps are from Seimens .

You're right, there's not much talk about Mundorf in these circles. With only one vendor selling their product here in North America, their profile is quite low in the audiophile cap community . They are available from "Mundrof Parts" at E-Speakers (http://www.e-speakers.com/products/mundorf.html). E-Speakers prices for these caps seem to be quite "ballpark" when compared to similar products such as "AudioNotes" from Parts Connexion (http://www.partsconnexion.com/catalog/CapacitorsFilm.html) .

These types of "Paper In Oil" caps are out of my price range .

<. Earl K

4313B
10-15-2004, 07:50 AM
Wow! 10 uF for $95...

There's a point where one simply says "Screw this bullshit!" and goes active. :rotfl:

gerard
10-15-2004, 08:45 AM
Ok

As far as I know in 4 weeks looking for xover parts , you really need good caps for medium and tweeter range which is low value caps .

compare the price .

Audiocap which is considered top of the line ? ( I may buy those to upgrade my xover )

audiocap ppt 0.47 uf 10.00 $
audiocap ppt 0.33 uf 8.00 $

Mundorf silver oil
supreme silver oil 0.47 uf 19.76 euro
supreme silver oil 0.33 uf 18.36 euro

if you need 4 of them you will spend : 36.00 $ or 76.00 ero ( 90.00 $ ) .


If really mundorf is so good and you only need few caps , difference is not so much specially if you leave in the Usa and you have Jbl systems ( you must have a lot of money but do not know how to spend it .. )

Gerard
;)

4313B
10-15-2004, 09:12 AM
Using the supreme silver oil for HF passives could be real cool while switching to active in the systems where larger value passive components would go.

gerard
10-15-2004, 09:31 AM
Well Giskard

I am a french from Paris living in Casablanca ; You know sometimes french people says things that other do not really understand the way it should be and sometimes they do not understand themselves ...

Just if you compare Morocco to Usa we leave in a different world ...

I still believe spending 100.00 $ more to have the "best caps ever " I am not saying it I just read it can be done .

I also still believe after reading documents audiocap should be as good as mundorf but never try .

Best regards

Gerard

4313B
10-15-2004, 09:42 AM
Here's something fun:

Cost to replace stock capacitors with Mundorf Supreme Silver & Oil capacitors in a pair of JBL Model 4345 Studio Monitors.

UHF
$30.87 1.0 uF
$35.16 1.5 uF

$132.06 a pair

HF
$78.48 8.0 uF
$61.77 6.0 uF
$61.77 6.0 uF
$47.07 3.0 uF

$498.18 a pair

MH
$94.02 10.0 uF
$94.02 10.0 uF
$94.02 10.0 uF
$94.02 10.0 uF
$94.02 10.0 uF
$94.02 10.0 uF
$69.78 7.0 uF
$69.78 7.0 uF

$1407.36 a pair

LF
$94.02 10.0 uF
$94.02 10.0 uF
$94.02 10.0 uF
$94.02 10.0 uF
$94.02 10.0 uF
$94.02 10.0 uF
$94.02 10.0 uF
$94.02 10.0 uF
$94.02 10.0 uF
$94.02 10.0 uF
$94.02 10.0 uF

$2068.44 a pair

$4,106.04 a pair total for capacitors

Earl K
10-15-2004, 09:52 AM
Using the supreme silver oil for HF passives could be real cool while switching to active in the systems where larger value passive components would go.

:yes:


What I find most interesting about the stated "winding topology" for the upper end of Mundorfs' cap offerings is this: They are in effect a "tip of the hat" towards the clever use of "end to end series" caps ( as in "Charge Coupled" ) but with stated effect that the "interleaving" of the 2 windings, reduces ESR effects , & resonances, etc. .

NOW:
Rubicons' BlackGate series of electrolytics toutes a similar quality increase of sonics if their (already non-polararized) "N, NH, NX types" are paralleled so that the "sexed" electrodes are reversed in respect to each other. A bit of the official article can be found in Michael Percys' (http://www.percyaudio.com/) pdf catalogue (http://www.percyaudio.com/Catalog.pdf) in the "Black Gate" cap area.

The passive implementation of this form of "self-cancelling" (anything) is somewhat akin to the lengths that amplifier circuit designers go to reduce crossover distortion in class "B" topologies.

About a week ago, I started to explore this "reported" phenomena.
I was going to hold off for a few weeks before discussing it- but the recent Mundorf info makes it topical - now .

Some Early Conclusions: there's a lot to be gained in the reduction of "grain" or "resonances" by adpoting this approach. Charge-coupling this topolgy takes it to another level. I've implemented the 180¡ electrode swap in some of my Base capacitors as well as the 2 sorts of "Bypass" capacitors that I have. The problem is ; I don't really have enough various values to remove the fair question of ; is it just the "doubling the bypass cap values that are making these quite substantial differences" in smoothness .

Anyhow ; & it's all quite early in this process - but I can't detect "ANY grain" in my RC circuit (HF boost ) caps . It's all DC-Biased ( today ) .

Very, Very, Very, Smoooooth !

( point being ; more people need to "get a grip" on the available topologies for reducing distortions from capacitors )

The topologies are cost effective & don't require "Boutique Caps" to work .

<. Earl K:) :cheers:

4313B
10-15-2004, 09:55 AM
Nice! :cheers:

Guido
10-15-2004, 02:43 PM
I use Intertechnik Audyn Cap Plus for the HF section of my 4343 and I really like them.
I can get discount on them. PM me if you interested in a price list.

This is the review from an link in an earlier post.

Technical Specifications:These low loss capacitors have been developed for extreme impulse/power handling. An important design/constructional feature is the power handling of the connection between the foils (electrodes) and the end. The Audyn Cap Plus has a vastly improved system of connecting the electrodes to the end leads. Audyn Cap Plus also utilizes an internal series connection system whereby layers of metal foil are combined with a one-side metallized "blind" layer. As a result of the double metallization performance is greatly enhanced. Dielectric: Polypropylene Winding: Induction free: 2 windings series connected Layers: Vacuum metallized Body: Aluminium, Synthetic material (plastic). Rather highly priced cap.



Sound: The Audyn Cap Plus is a true high-end capacitor! They sound a bit hard at first and have a sort of midrange haze because they take a while to burn-in. But after a few days of normal use they deliver a very spatial sound with lots of depth that only gets better as time passes. Perfect reproduction of the finest musical nuances. Furthermore, the effect is not only achieved with very expensive high-end components. It delivers a significant enhancement in more price-conscious configurations, making it a very worthwhile upgrade even though it is rather expensive. Clarity, depth, detail and openness from top to bottom! When I first switched over to these I thought, “this is it!” even though they were fresh from the shelf. They sound a little more mid-range forward compared to the equally good Mundorf Supreme Cap. Although they are expensive, the degree of improvement is a value compared to the cost of high-end cables and interconnects.

gerard
10-18-2004, 05:24 PM
Guido

Did you try also audiocap ppt ( a lot of test says it's the best caps ...) ?

gerard

gerard
10-18-2004, 05:43 PM
Guido

What do you think of this link :http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/DIYHiFi/messages/3545.html

about jupiter ?

gerard

Guido
10-20-2004, 11:26 AM
Sorry for late reply Gerard. I'm on a business trip.

Yes, maybe the Audyn plus caps can sound analytical. But I use them with only with my 2405 and there I like that sound!

For the other parts of the network I use Audyn KPQS + MKP Bypass + MKT Bypass and like them alot!

B&KMan
04-12-2005, 01:21 PM
Hello great community JBL
(sorry for my poor english)

I'M join with this tread because it is center target of manys questions...

1--- historic
after a couple of days in darks on read the crazy world of capacitor in this forum, I ask a question into this group for the selection of capacitor and tips for reuild my crossover 3143

If my comprehension of capacitor is good; the type of capacitor affect the result response in transient and put more "coloration" or add a signature in sound.. This signature is more relevant
if I compare the type of soldering or cable...
right ??

I have a 4343 studio monitor JBL
but after check carrefully speaker, many problem occur...
Driver reconning by third part product,
invert phase and polarity in connection and
wrong interpretation in color code for drivers connection to network crossover...
I realize the time integration of the UHF 2405 is not good (see other tread forum)


and finnaly final step my cross over appear old and many part is corroded, switch, L pad,...

So I realize the potential of speaker is limited by this point.

Well of course I open mind in manys experience and recommendation of this forum. But just start a new controverse...

===========
If the capacitor is relative hard signature, the JBL team is recognize this and choice the type of capacitor in regards of the sighature of driver and best "team work in all componant.

So I recognize the old capacitor (30 years) is dry and not respond well fast or well stable as new but why change the nature of capacitor ???

If JBL team recognize a special selection for one realisation (exemple) so why change the signature of capacitor if you like JBL Sound Signature ??? . Why do not just keep the same type but better degree of precision ???

And for start a new controversy: I know many componants change signature response after burn-in and many extreme company, nagra, Bruel & kjaer, FM acoustic and Accuphase (for name of couple) burn-in many part before mesure and classifie parts...

in other hand, if it shure a capacitor with no roddage is sound hard harch and metal but after a real burn it is smoothing, deaper and open ...

===========

By the way I look a couples of Big home state crossover with very hight level of components, flat coil, high end caps, mil resitance, ...

Zilch
04-12-2005, 02:13 PM
If "Signature Sound" relies on the capacitors JBL used 30 years ago, it is a BAD sound, indeed.

And I can assure you, NONE of it is a matter of the type of solder or cables used....

B&KMan
04-12-2005, 02:29 PM
Well,
It very short response... :)

Well, actually the JBL is produce a Famous JBL S9800 and I suppose the capacitor network is shure better but probably in relation in tradition of JBL Sound...

30 years ago this speaker is famous too and it is a reflet of the level of the history technology... So the capacitor is realy bad in famous speaker ???

Of course, now the original cone kit is corroded and uncentered and dust and deformed so the sound really bad but just put a fresh cone and Voilà !!! Why do not apply the same principe in capacitor???

why change JBL receipt cook signature??? why not just refresh for accurate???

the JBL parts is actually too cheap in regards of the market offert in specialized capacitor ???

Ian Mackenzie
04-12-2005, 04:37 PM
I like B & K Mans point's, he raises some interesting issues.

Giskard has previously posted about the JBL selected parts.

At the moment I am working on developing a project to upgrade the 4343 in several levels with Ed. This will include the crossover, electrical contacts, enclosure bracing and upgrade to 4344 components. There is also the option of building an external crossover box which will bypass the original crossover incl Pads (while leaving the system in vintage conditon should the owner desire this).

We plan to publish the project soon enough.

The sum of the whole will offer greater musical satisfaction than focus on one specific area.

Interestingly enough, poor sound or perhaps a deterioration over a priod of time is often the result of poor cable terminations. I am sure most of us have had this problem with a car battery. Imagine what your poor old speaker is trying to do if the terminals are bad..it is a motor after all.

The connections should be cleaned of any oxide and be a secure tight fit with adequate capacity for the current to flow. Cables should be short and heavy gauge copper. Avoid hi end cables with termination boxes, these cables may make your amplifier unstable by introducing reactance.

Ian

hector.murray
04-12-2005, 08:55 PM
from EarlK earlier:
( point being ; more people need to "get a grip" on the available topologies for reducing distortions from capacitors )

The topologies are cost effective & don't require "Boutique Caps" to work .



I add to that the referance for recapping the crossover. the cost is astronomical.
It's hard to analayze this data - the technical reproduction vs what is heard - as that is pretty subjective.
I wonder if there is a way to analyze the "trueness" (if you will) or faithfullness of a reproduction. With the current level of technology available, to compare the output of an amp to the output of a crossover to see if one cap is more faithfull than another. Something using high sample rates that could not only perform simple sine wave comparison, but spectral analyses of a range with a broad spectrum input.

For example:
Method A - input a broad spectrum midrange signal for a given crossover, say 1.2k to 4k or 6k, into an amp and do a 2 channel comparison. Channel 1 the output of the amp and channel 2 the output of the midrange ( it is a given that this is a 3 or 4 way crossover - but I think you get the idea) of the crossover.
I apologise in advance if this seems too simplistic a view.
Or it could be that NASA needs to be comissioned to do this as they are the only ones with the equipment for this type of analysis, but somehow I doubt that.
Then again, this does not take into account what we hear as that is subjective info.
If I'm way off base here, someone tell me.

Ian Mackenzie
04-12-2005, 10:17 PM
Yet another spin is that the transducers will only sound as pure and clean as what's coming from upstream.

Lesser quality capacitors like mylars have significant dieletric absorbtion (D/A), this has the effect of smoothing and filtering very fine transient information and all other micro level noise and other by products like 3rd harmonic distortion. This makes the speaker more tolorant of the source.

Therefore, upgrading to higher resolution capacitors will only be as rewarding as the quality of the source. If you have mass mid market Cd player and amp, the results will be different, but not necesarily better.

I think this is the problem for many so called audiophile tweakers. These expensive tweaks are really a work around and only make a change and people become confused about what real improvement means. Hence they continue to spend $$ on tweaks rather than spending money more wisely like on a better cartridge or pre amplifier.

A good measure is long term listening pleasure and whether you feel the desire to continue to make improvements. If you feel this way, as a friend to come over and assist with assessing your system. Swap your source or other components and then make a well informed decision about your future investment.

This tends to prevent or minimise long,hardened and often religious ideologies about equipment.

Just my 2 cent worth, but practical experience tends to support the above.

Ian

Ian Mackenzie
04-12-2005, 11:35 PM
( point being ; more people need to "get a grip" on the available topologies for reducing distortions from capacitors )

The topologies are cost effective & don't require "Boutique Caps" to work .





Obviously it works....but can you make a silk purse out of a sours ear....I am skeptical.

I note that JBL also bi passed these capacitors with small value higher quality types, that suggests the this is still necessary for improved performance.

Why not spend top dollar on you tweeters and horns where only small values are required?

It would be interesting to arrange on proper qualitative analysis from a panel of golden ear audiophiles on their preferences for charge coupling and so called boutique capacitors.

I am inclined to think charge coupling (other wise known as biasing) is an engineers solution to economic rationalism where certain commerical boundaries exist.

Earl K
04-13-2005, 06:00 AM
Why not spend top dollar on you tweeters and horns where only small values are required?

- Yep ,that always makes a lot of sense to me .


It would be interesting to arrange on proper qualitative analysis from a panel of golden ear audiophiles on their preferences for charge coupling and so called boutique capacitors.

- Well. I used to trust the U.N. Then there was Rawanda .


I am inclined to think charge coupling (other wise known as biasing) is an engineers solution to economic rationalism where certain commerical boundaries exist.

- I believe there is a lot of truth behind that statement .

- I'll take it even further. My hunch is that "lesser" capacitors & even "lesser" system electronics will benefit the most from this treatment. Since a lot of my stuff does fall into the "lesser" category / I get big bang for the buck from biasing & bipassing . Class A stuff will likely benefit the least from these topologies ( I haven't explored this thought becuase I lack the necessary funds ) . Since I'm pretty stuck on using efficient ( think PA, class AB ) amp topologies ( & thus keeping the heat & electrical bill down ) / the cost savings and quality increase are quite real ( even staggering ) .



:cheers:

4313B
04-13-2005, 06:19 AM
I am inclined to think charge coupling (other wise known as biasing) is an engineers solution to economic rationalism where certain commerical boundaries exist.From various conversations I'm inclined to believe Solen and RelCap are the most expensive caps ever tried at JBL. I could be wrong, but that is definitely the impression I've gotten. I can't imagine a scenario in which they decided something like "Solen caps biased will give us the same level of performance as <insert favorite megabuck cap here> caps unbiased for much less money". I don't think <insert favorite megabuck cap here> caps were ever evaluated. The scenario I envision is "Check out how these caps (metallized mylars and polypropylenes) sound when we bias them!" followed by "Holy Hand Grenade Batman!".

It would be interesting to arrange on proper qualitative analysis from a panel of golden ear audiophiles on their preferences for charge coupling and so called boutique capacitors.Definitely!

I note that JBL also bi passed these capacitors with small value higher quality types, that suggests the this is still necessary for improved performance.I've run into the same scenario. The cheap Dayton (Bennic) MM caps seem to still need the bypass caps whereas the Solen MM caps don't. I've yet to compare all three together - biased and bypassed Daytons, biased Solens and unbiased SoniCaps. I was going to try that with the XPL250's.

Robh3606
04-13-2005, 06:31 AM
The scenario I envision is "Check out how these caps (metallized mylars and polypropylenes) sound when we bias them!"

I would think so too. I was surprised that non polorized electrolytics were still in the mix. I wonder if the biased Solen networks have the mylar/polyprolylene swaped out and the electrolytics replaced or just the mylars/polypropylene with the larger values still NPE's.

Look at the progression

Mylar and NPE Generic

Mylar and NPE with Polypropylene Generic

Mylar and NPE with Polypropylene and Polystyrene XPL-200

Mylar and NPE with Polypropylene Charge Coupled with Polypropylene and Polystyrene used as bypass where sections were not CC 3100

Mylar and NPE with Polypropylene CC all sections 9800

New Solen Networks?????

Rob:)

Ian Mackenzie
04-13-2005, 07:21 AM
- Yep ,that always makes a lot of sense to me .



- Well. I used to trust the U.N. Then there was Rawanda .



- I believe there is a lot of truth behind that statement .

Class A stuff will likely benefit the least from these topologies ( I haven't explored this thought I lack the necessary funds ) . Since I'm pretty stuck on using efficient ( think PA, class AB ) amp topologies ( & thus keeping the heat & electrical bill down ) / the cost savings and quality increase are quite real ( even staggering ) .



:cheers:

Surely you would benefit from class A foot warmers in your COLD Canadian Polar Winter and your heating Bill will be the same but sound nicer when it arrives...

Ian

Ian Mackenzie
04-13-2005, 07:27 AM
Well it Sounds like we are all in Bi Lateral Agreement.

Off to Bed here, time for a different sort of Charge Coupling...Muhahahah.

Macka

Earl K
04-13-2005, 08:23 AM
Surely you would benefit from class A foot warmers in your COLD Canadian Polar Winter and your heating Bill will be the same but sound nicer when it arrives... Ha Ha Ha!

- Right ,,, No,,, I'm in an apartment where I pay the electrical but not the heating bill ( an older building with hot water rads ).
- Until that changes ,,,there'll be no inefficient Class A footwarmers for me . Too costly. :D

B&KMan
04-13-2005, 10:36 AM
I like B & K Mans point's, he raises some interesting issues.

Interestingly enough, poor sound or perhaps a deterioration over a priod of time is often the result of poor cable terminations. I am sure most of us have had this problem with a car battery. Imagine what your poor old speaker is trying to do if the terminals are bad..it is a motor after all.

The connections should be cleaned of any oxide and be a secure tight fit with adequate capacity for the current to flow. Cables should be short and heavy gauge copper. Avoid hi end cables with termination boxes, these cables may make your amplifier unstable by introducing reactance.

Ian

Well you have right and in this case I'm a serious guy see pict

WBT And Van den Hul silver gage 2 with telflon : absolutely no compromise

B&KMan
04-13-2005, 10:49 AM
from EarlK earlier:

I add to that the referance for recapping the crossover. the cost is astronomical.
It's hard to analayze this data - the technical reproduction vs what is heard - as that is pretty subjective.
I wonder if there is a way to analyze the "trueness" (if you will) or faithfullness of a reproduction. With the current level of technology available, to compare the output of an amp to the output of a crossover to see if one cap is more faithfull than another. Something using high sample rates that could not only perform simple sine wave comparison, but spectral analyses of a range with a broad spectrum input.
.

Well thanks for cue...

Yes actually I performed a analyse in comparison of channel 1 to channel 2 and after verification of coherence noise I check the frequency response of the low, mid connected in crossover. My dual channel spectrum analyser Bruel and Kjaer is specifiquely degisn for acoustic analyse and is generate in this case a random white noise and couple hundred average for precision.
The curve response is clearly exposed but I have not expertise to detect if the cap is maintaint the juice is wright place because I have a original curve...

Mybe one guy is performd this specialist interpretation on live in this forum ???

(i have no problom to built pict of the result...)

Anyway I'M shure and it is clear in this forum and any professionnal who talk the the 30 yeras cap is impossible to run accurate...
:)

B&KMan
04-13-2005, 11:17 AM
Yet another spin is that the transducers will only sound as pure and clean as what's coming from upstream.

Lesser quality capacitors like mylars have significant dieletric absorbtion (D/A), this has the effect of smoothing and filtering very fine transient information and all other micro level noise and other by products like 3rd harmonic distortion. This makes the speaker more tolorant of the source.

Therefore, upgrading to higher resolution capacitors will only be as rewarding as the quality of the source. If you have mass mid market Cd player and amp, the results will be different, but not necesarily better.

Ian

It is a excellent method to resume point... I agree !!!

It is a major point of any .... forum... the problem is the isolate the variable to expose the objective point...

One guy is expose a certains points, other guy ;others points.
For my part I have no experience in electronics but big experience in acoustic and vibration.

---Ex 10% of distortion maybe generated by a coax or multibrin cable exposed in 1 g vibration !!! this is a tribo electrical problem.

--- ex: Other problem ; what is a realy fact in question about the mystery rack kill vibration ??? this is my speciality and I work a scientific white paper in this. Of course My set-up is " calibrated in this points" but in regards if reactance of electronical parts : I'M ignorant so maybe if I have a problem in this aspect I not reconize the sympomt. the acoustic result is the SUM of the total good and bad point of the system including room !!

the major difference in audiophile religion approach is no mesurable machine assist experience and in this the small deviation is maybe a final stupid tweaking in relevant of the scientic mesuable experimentation or just the final touch who the magic come...

But one rule on this Imossible to make good result with bad result mesurement

:blink:

B&KMan
04-13-2005, 11:40 AM
Look at the progression

Mylar and NPE Generic

Mylar and NPE with Polypropylene Generic

Mylar and NPE with Polypropylene and Polystyrene XPL-200

Mylar and NPE with Polypropylene Charge Coupled with Polypropylene and Polystyrene used as bypass where sections were not CC 3100

Mylar and NPE with Polypropylene CC all sections 9800

New Solen Networks?????

Rob:)

YEAH!! that interesting cue...

thanks!!

:)

buy the way I leave in MONTREAL and is is a close town where the SOLEN is have a shop...

1--- SOLEN caps is suffering by a illegal clone cap come from asia and europa.

Actually Solen is run a couple of poursuit of law in the world for broken copyright and illegal utilization of the name " solen " so maybe you buy a sfacke part solen check the distributor and the company contact on WWW.

2--- SOLEN have a world reputation of cap and desrve many very hight end company. wilson, avalon, B&W for name a couple...

I know the line of real better parts and esoteric money trap is not alway clear but it is shure the if you run with cheap with no personnal mesure and selection you go to cataclismic result....

:D

4313B
04-13-2005, 11:46 AM
1--- SOLEN caps is suffering by a illegal clone cap come from asia and europa.Shouldn't be a problem if ordering directly from www.solen.ca (http://www.solen.ca) :)

I always call so I can hear "Bon Jour Solen" from the women. ;)

B&KMan
04-13-2005, 12:52 PM
Shouldn't be a problem if ordering directly from www.solen.ca (http://www.solen.ca) :)

I always call so I can hear "Bon Jour Solen" from the women. ;)

AHHHH! this is the real man

BONJOUR = Good day in french (one word)

Oh buy the way congratulation Giskard for the real beautiful and serious project rebuilding network crossover.

:applaud:

What is the detail of listing part ??

and where you buy the coil foil (Goertz ??) or other company

Thanks for all.


p.s. Because you are a extreme buidlder I assume you are open in any aspect of sound...

My experience in this is : your are probably better result if :
build isolate farrad cage muMetal for coil

glued or attachement all cable in board ( limitation tribo-electrical )

my recent experiment vibration analyse is confirm any product submit in vibration is exposed to produce a certains signature coloration in depent of the modal signature vibration material. in this case your improve transparence and fastest response if you put your crossover in more harder wood and sandwich of other very hard materail for fast damping response in material (rock, steel)...
ideally more down 10 DB level difference on plate and component parts vibration garanty more drainage energie vibration and permit to down tribo electrical noise...

crazy?? but in fact...


best regards...

:)

4313B
04-13-2005, 01:10 PM
The capacitors and inductors for the project you posted the photo of were purchased from http://www.gr-research.com/
They custom trimmed the inductors.

The resistors were purchased from http://www.gr-research.com/

The polypropylene film and foil bypass capacitors came from www.partsexpress.com (http://www.partsexpress.com/) (yellow with red lettering)

The polystyrene film and foil bypass capacitors came from www.percyaudio.com (http://www.percyaudio.com/) (yellow with black lettering)

"my recent experiment vibration analyse is confirm any product submit in vibration is exposed to produce a certains signature coloration "

Evidently JBL agrees - I've not only been told by their Engineers to isolate the network boards but they themselves are following that practice in certain designs. I already gave up the PC board approach to mounting loudspeaker crossover components years ago. They look nice but that's about it. The particular networks you posted a picture of are prototypes designed to mount outside of any enclosures for quick access to tweaks. I'm currently considering building future networks in their own isolated enclosures outside of the loudspeaker enclosures in the M9500 style.

B&KMan
04-13-2005, 01:26 PM
The capacitors and inductors for the project you posted the photo of were purchased from http://www.gr-research.com/
They custom trimmed the inductors.



Thanks for precision and informations. you smell a professionnal guys !! :D

Well yes alphacore is the goertz flat cable but I know other company is produce flat cable copper 4N.

for the point of view of the Solen the Hepta-Litz inductor is superior to flat cable... but the hepta-litz is a solen product :bouncy:

Do you have a chance to compare goertz and hepta-litz ??

other tip what is the blend soldering you work cardas, wbt, common, silver, ???

4313B
04-13-2005, 01:35 PM
Years ago I tested Solen Hepta-Litz against Solen Perfect-Lay in a JBL 4430 and preferred the sound of the Perfect-Lay. I've not tried the Hepta-Litz in anything else.

62-36-2 tin/lead/silver solder

B&KMan
04-13-2005, 01:36 PM
I'm currently considering building future networks in their own isolated enclosures outside of the loudspeaker enclosures in the M9500 style.

COOL...

actually I works in modal analyse of composite for improvement linearity response and lower noise floor possible at the basement support electronic device...

Well, do you have accelerometer for evaluation of problem ??

If you wants ingeneering tips let me know ...
:)

4313B
04-13-2005, 01:36 PM
Ok, thanks! :)

B&KMan
04-13-2005, 02:09 PM
Years ago I tested Solen Hepta-Litz against Solen Perfect-Lay in a JBL 4430 and preferred the sound of the Perfect-Lay. I've not tried the Hepta-Litz in anything else.

62-36-2 tin/lead/silver solder


Just for nuancing my cue on hepta-litz ..

in solen the bass response is more linear with hepta-litz but the hight is more linear with perfect-Lay...

but you understand the litz is realy 3-4- more time for burning rodage...

other question about your beautyful project Giskard : what is the type of final cable you put to link the component and connection with driver ??

4313B
04-13-2005, 02:10 PM
"in solen the bass response is more linear with hepta-litz but the hight is more linear with perfect-Lay..."

Ah! :)

I don't know what cable they used. Mr. Widget?

Mr. Widget
04-13-2005, 02:37 PM
I hope you guys are kidding.

We used generic 12ga copper speaker wire. Clear vinyl insulator and maybe 60 strands per conductor.

Widget

bigredplane
04-13-2005, 06:20 PM
I have tried alot of caps the best I have found are from North Creek Music. I will be putting them in my L96's it has the same crossover as a L112 and L150A. You can check out his web site it tell you a about them and how to use them.

www.northcreekmusic.com (http://www.northcreekmusic.com/)

4313B
04-13-2005, 06:44 PM
Yeah, I buy these from them.

B&KMan
04-13-2005, 07:47 PM
I have tried alot of caps the best I have found are from North Creek Music. I will be putting them in my L96's it has the same crossover as a L112 and L150A. You can check out his web site it tell you a about them and how to use them.

www.northcreekmusic.com (http://www.northcreekmusic.com/)


well, thanks for the cue...

bigredplane or Anybody do you test a other capacitor like:

frako, sprague, jensen. (for name just a major player)

I try to evaluate the capacitor and other live experience do you have a spec...

And I try to push up the chalenge at this forum.

exemple skin effect phase shift or drop leakage... on impluse response, etc...

:bouncy:

B&KMan
04-13-2005, 07:58 PM
The capacitors and inductors for the project you posted the photo of were purchased from http://www.gr-research.com/
They custom trimmed the inductors.
.

Hello again...

I have a chance to listen the 4343 with externat cable copper flat cable and silver flat cable (goertz) !!!
(6n purity copper is not better of 4n silver purity)
(and silver is 11 more conductor to copper...)

the experience is stunning !!!

The silver is really next hight level...

My question is goertz is built inductor flat cable in copper but anybody have a chance to listen a silver inductor???
:jawdrop:

bigredplane
04-13-2005, 08:23 PM
well, thanks for the cue...

bigredplane or Anybody do you test a other capacitor like:

frako, sprague, jensen. (for name just a major player)

I try to evaluate the capacitor and other live experience do you have a spec...

And I try to push up the chalenge at this forum.

exemple skin effect phase shift or drop leakage... on impluse response, etc...

:bouncy:

I love the Jensen oil filled copper foil caps. I am using them as in my tube amp from Cary Audio, but you would have to take out a bank loan to recap a speakers with them. Scott:o:

Ian Mackenzie
04-13-2005, 11:36 PM
Hello again...

I have a chance to listen the 4343 with externat cable copper flat cable and silver flat cable (goertz) !!!
(6n purity copper is not better of 4n silver purity)
(and silver is 11 more conductor to copper...)

the experience is stunning !!!

The silver is really next hight level...

My question is goertz is built inductor flat cable in copper but anybody have a chance to listen a silver inductor???
:jawdrop:
No but I have heard another hi techn Goertz cable and I prefer the copper.
(Australian copper by the way is the purest copper on earth)

Silver can sound too hot in the top end, if you can afford it okay.
But remember that inside the box there is a ton of standard coppor wire incl the crossover, the nickrome element wire in the L Pads, and the voice coils are either copport or alluminium. So don't kid yourself unless you were using small gauge lamp flex for speaker cables.

Ian

B&KMan
04-14-2005, 12:47 AM
(Australian copper by the way is the purest copper on earth)

Ian

Well i know the australia have a very great reputation copper and
the " space an time" cie is build reputation with this copper... :)

For me, my best friend is work in industrie of high end and I have a chance to test many many astronoshing price component and on my short list ; the silver it is realy on the front !!

especially van den hul and kimber silver cable (i purchase all silver van den hul interconnect and speaker cable)

after very long time roddage the cable is simply faboulus ) the silver cable goertz 2 " silver is realy close more space but artificial space... little over bit space destroy the body... sound look ether gas ...
the copper is more realistic but many details out.

and the size of coil is a big impact of sound, Giskard is soldering with silver blend why ?? just 2% in little spot !!! but great difference. aluminium is realy fast but oxiding in the time...

well well well

the crossover is same proble at a any electronic component, soldering, cable, parts precision, design, mounting, isolation electrical and mecanical...
put, connectors, pfiouuu I'm tired... and I pick a solution is easy... drink a good wine... :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

B&KMan
04-14-2005, 09:06 PM
Well thanks for cue...

Yes actually I performed a analyse in comparison of channel 1 to channel 2 and after verification of coherence noise I check the frequency response of the low, mid connected in crossover. My dual channel spectrum analyser is specifiquely degisn for acoustic analyse and is generate in this case a random white noise and couple hundred average for precision.
The curve response is clearly exposed but I have not expertise to detect if the cap is maintaint the juice at right place because I have not a original curve...


Here the picts of responses of 4 driver.
The response electrical is colloected direct on the posts connector driver with all driver is connect on crossover network. White random noise generator and Small amplifier instrumental connected with very short cable... the result is compare the input stimulation via the result respons on the post driver...

I hope anybody is look this is detect many problem... :bouncy:

in this I send a pict in 2131 response in Narrow band little fine of 1/24 oct at 10 Db
The double slope is normal ??? or the caps is dead ???