JBL SR system for a 20K sized arena

[robertbartsch]

OK, my wife and I went to the Izod arena in Meadowlands NJ to see Eric Clapton and Steve Winwood perform last night.

I believe this is a 20,000 seat forum and it has a high roof. Anyway, the sound system consisted of six columns of cabs that were stacked above the stage - 14 cabs for each column (84 cabs total). From what I could tell, each cab contained two LF woofers - probably 15s and a large format compression driver and horn.

From what I gather from recent concerts, this is now a fairly typical system for this sized forum.

Well the sound for the first hour was very marginal - just not enough volume or dynamic range and the vocals were muddy. During the remaining 1.5 hours the system performed slightly better, however. If I had to guess, I would assume the maximum volume was around 95db, I suppose.

On a scale of 1-10, I would rate this system about a 3. Many concerts of 30 years or so ago had sound systems that I would rate as 8 or 9, compared to this.

I assume this shortfall is a consequence of trying to minimuze costs/shipping and transport to maximize profits.

[Titanium Dome]

On a scale of 1-10, I would rate this system about a 3. Many concerts of 30 years or so ago had sound systems that I would rate as 8 or 9, compared to this.


Was there anything else different 30 years ago?

[hjames]

Was there anything else different 30 years ago?

For me, I stopped going to shows in sports arenas ...
the hard surfaces and less than optimal seating meant I wasn't really going to enjoy the show anyway ...

Back inna day, paying $20-30 to see a band I liked in an BB arena or similar was worth it ...

For $150 and up, nah, not gonna happen ...

These days, if its not a smaller venue, I won't be there ...

[robertbartsch]

Dome:
Good question that I have been thinking about since last year in the NY Garden when we saw the Eagles who had a similarily marginal sound system.

I'm not knowledgeable about big stage sound systems but I guess I would list these obvious things as possible differences:

Old concert sound systems - say 30-40 years ago:

1. Much more equipment for similar sized events, probably on the order of 3X compared with the Izod arena or NY Garden.

2. The LF drivers were always loaded in large bass cabs.

3. The systems were arranged in pairs, typically at stage level and on each side of the stage - NOT hung from cables very high above the stage. In larger forums, additional speakers had often been located away from the stage - in the back or sides of the arena.

4. The power amps, typically several dozen Crown DC300s were often placed on the stage in back of each speaker system. I assume modern stacked cabs have power amps built in or are driven by amps that are far away.

5. Nearly every old system was played loud enough to result in ringing in the ears for a day or two, so I am sure the SPLs were much much much higher than today. Some of the higher end systems of the day included Deep Purple, Robin Trower, Zep, Flyod)

6. Instead of 4 or 5 - 18 wheeler trucks in the forum parking lot, you would see a dozen or so.

[Oldmics]

Robert
Sorry to get the news about one of my favorite artists sounding poorly :(

Large venues like that which are sports oriented usually result in exhibiting poor musical reinforcement preformances.

Todays best bet for large attendance good sounding events are outdoor festival situations.Unfortunatly festival situations sometimes exhibit other issues that are less than desirable.

I dont know who the provided is for that tour.Certainly one of the "biggies".

There may have been a volume constraint imposed at the F.O.H. by manangement resulting in a situation of the volume you precieved.

Although mixing at 95 db all nite long would be nice. :bouncy:

The only thing that I can say for sure is 84 boxs would be enough to blow the walls down almost anywhere so it certainly could have been run louder.

These days when I have a need to see an artist (rarely) I"ll make a call and sit in monitor world and just hear the stage volume.

This way I dont have to critique the P.A. or mix.

Oldmics

[Mr. Widget]

Well the sound for the first hour was very marginal - just not enough volume or dynamic range and the vocals were muddy. During the remaining 1.5 hours the system performed slightly better, however. If I had to guess, I would assume the maximum volume was around 95db, I suppose.Now that's unusual! Not the fact that the sound was mediocre, but the fact that it wasn't ear splitting loud... virtually every show I see these days is simply crazy loud. I like loud, for a few minutes to make a point or add drama, but two hours of head pounding isn't my idea of fun. 95dB sounds pretty good to me.


Widget

[Titanium Dome]

5. Nearly every old system was played loud enough to result in ringing in the ears for a day or two, so I am sure the SPLs were much much much higher than today. Some of the higher end systems of the day included Deep Purple,

Amen to that, brother. I've heard DP a dozen times over the years, and it's a miracle I can still hear. I sorta remember climbing in front of the towers once before security got me. I still have a chunk of Blackmore's guitar from that concert.

My ears would ring for at least two days. :rockon1:

[Mr. Widget]

My ears would ring for at least two days. :rockon1:...and that's a good thing? No wonder all of you guys are now deaf. :rotfl:

Seriously though, modern flown systems with a wall of subs at the base of the stage are capable of bandwidth and SPLs that even The Who and Deep Purple would have envied. The new systems are much lighter in tonnage than the old school designs, but because of smarter design they have the horsepower and ability to deliver it like never before.


Widget

[Andyoz]

Funny, but no one has mentioned how the signal chain feeding these FOH rigs has changed in the last 30 years.

I sometiomes wonder with the advent of the all digital signal paths, if sound engineers are getting a bit lazy and assuming that because it's digital, it will handle more abuse than analogue gear.

I heard a nice story from one of Ireland's top sound engineers engineers recently. He was on tour with a band that just couldn't afford the latest digital mixers, etc. So he pulled an analogue Midas XL4 out for the gigs and kept a nice tight analgue signal chain (more or less). Right from the first sound check, everyone commented how "good" it sounded. Even the dinner ladies (well not really but you get the drift).

I don't go to large gigs anymore. There is something just no quite right about the sound I'm hearing. There are issues with the midrange (snares sound weird now) and the bass is generally a disaster. the intent appears to be move loads of air but forget about tuneful bass where you can hear the bass guitar wire slap, etc.

[cooky1257]

To my ears there does appear a disconnection between the subs and the flown line arrays and it's only a few occasions where I've been happy at larger gigs covered in this way the norm being rather like a giant loudness button.
The best I've ever heard is a point source system by Funktion1 which was like a giant hifi -awesome.

http://www.funktion-one.com/
cooky

[robertbartsch]

One other thought.

Clapton/Winwood did an accustic set lasting about 15 minutes. The sound was very good - no muddled vocals, clear sound with good dynamic range.

What conclusions could you draw from this?

1. The sound system may have been capable but the hall's accustic properties likely destroyed non-accustic electric instruments for a full 7 piece band playing full out rock tunes?

2. Accustic lower SPL music material is easy to reproduce even with over stressed systems in crappy hallz?

3. Nothing?

[Titanium Dome]

One other thought.

Clapton/Winwood did an accustic set lasting about 15 minutes. The sound was very good - no muddled vocals, clear sound with good dynamic range.

What conclusions could you draw from this?

1. The sound system may have been capable but the hall's accustic properties likely destroyed non-accustic electric instruments for a full 7 piece band playing full out rock tunes?

2. Accustic lower SPL music material is easy to reproduce even with over stressed systems in crappy hallz?

3. Nothing?

4. The lazy sound engineer got lucky.

[Andyoz]

To my ears there does appear a disconnection between the subs and the flown line arrays and it's only a few occasions where I've been happy at larger gigs covered in this way the norm being rather like a giant loudness button.

I have talked to a few young sound engineers (good ones) and they generally admit that the industry (concert goers, bands and promoters) want the smilie face EQ curve. Plenty of low and highs. They don't necessarily like to do it, but they have to earn a living and if they won't do it, they lose the gig.

In general, it all sounds a bit crap to me. The huge lump of sub energy around 40-80Hz totally washes out any nuances further up around 80-160Hz which I think is a very important octave to get right...information in that octave will be masked by your ear/brain if there is too much energy in the lower octave. The mistmatch can be 15-20dB sometimes which is insane IMO.

One of the other reasons they pump up the bass is that if they are working to noise limits, these are generally given in A-Weighted dB levels and the low freq energy can be bumped up without pushing up the dBA level too much.

[Steve Schell]

I attended a show by Lucinda Williams at the House of Blues near Disneyland a couple of weeks ago. She was great as always after she finally arrived, but we had been subjected to an hour of high decibel uninspired nonsense by her band filling in by then. The levels were just crazy in there all night. Even standing in the back with foam earplugs in tight, my ears didn't straighten out for three days.

Andyoz, they seemed to be doing the happy face at this gig. The low frequency fundamentals impact the body and are fun for about the first two minutes, then annoying after that. This super high SPL craziness is just nuts, and the main reason why I rarely attend pop music events.

[hjames]

I attended a show by Lucinda Williams at the House of Blues near Disneyland a couple of weeks ago. She was great as always after she finally arrived, but we had been subjected to an hour of high decibel uninspired nonsense by her band filling in by then. The levels were just crazy in there all night. Even standing in the back with foam earplugs in tight, my ears didn't straighten out for three days.

Andyoz, they seemed to be doing the happy face at this gig. The low frequency fundamentals impact the body and are fun for about the first two minutes, then annoying after that. This super high SPL craziness is just nuts, and the main reason why I rarely attend pop music events.

I had something like that back in the mid-70s ... went to see a band (either Roxy Music or Hot Tuna) in a small theatre in DC, and when we arrived, the warmup act was doing their best to burn down the building - Frank Marino and Mahogoney Rush at FULL VOLUME.
I wouldn't even go into the theatre until they finished their set and were off stage because I knew I wouldn't hear any nuances of the act that followed after that assault.

Blame the record label for mismatching the artists so much!

But - with that kind of attitude, why pay good money for that kind of abuse ...

[jcrobso]

I had enough time to hear 3 different bands at 3 different stages. The sound was GOOD! The main stages had big stacks with very big subs, not sure of the brands none of the speakers no logos on them. I was about 60' away and the bass was pounding on my chest, so I decided not to get any closer.
The third band was on the street, no stage, just their own amps that were miked and 4 of what looked like JBL SRX715. I was about 25' from the speakers and really liked the sound of the JBLs:applaud:.
The fact that this is outdoors and there are no room reflections to mess up the sound helps. I like running outdoor sound, until it rains then it is not so much fun.:( John

[Andyoz]

I can't remember the last big gig I went to where the snare actually sounded like a snare and the kick drum sounded like a kick drum. Bands seem to be scared not to add a load of effects to the sound of drum kits.

It's game over after that IMO.

[4343]

One other thought.

Clapton/Winwood did an acoustic set lasting about 15 minutes. The sound was very good - no muddled vocals, clear sound with good dynamic range.

What conclusions could you draw from this?

1. The sound system may have been capable but the hall's acoustic properties likely destroyed non-acoustic electric instruments for a full 7 piece band playing full out rock tunes?

2. Acoustic lower SPL music material is easy to reproduce even with over stressed systems in crappy hallz?

3. Nothing?

I've seen exactly what you describe in 1.

One time I was asked to listen to "The Problem" at a friends church. The first act was the lead singer from Blues Image (Mike Pinera?) singing solo to his new CD-minus-vocal-track (Karaoke?). All the sound came from two PA speakers and sounded fantastic. :D Next up a full band with Bass, Drums, Percussion, Keyboards, two Guitars, and 4 of them singing. The volume was only slightly higher than the "Solo" singer, but the result of all the instruments playing together from different locations on the stage was just awful... Unintelligible vocals, muddy bass, etc. The acoustics of the room were just way too live! :barf:

I had them get an acoustic consultant in, and the next time I saw that room, it had been redone with bass traps and such and sounded great. Good enough that we recorded a bunch of blues tracks live that sound pretty good. :applaud:

My bet is on the SPL limit being set by the venue.:blink: And way too much compression/hard limiting to make sure of that limit. Stage sound may have had a hand in it as well, but I doubt it.

[boputnam]

Eeek... One at a time...


OK, my wife and I went to the Izod arena in Meadowlands NJ...Key word: Arena. Sound will be a struggle no matter how good the engineers. Steve Schell touched on it, but the acoustics of these halls were not even considered in their build - they are for sports, with an arena-center omni cluster to all seats. No-one considered an end-zone staging with PA and the related acoustic conflicts.


...the sound system consisted of six columns of cabs that were stacked above the stage...you mean, flown? Or stage stacked? That would be very unusual.

From what I know, JBL has an exclusive with Clapton - Vertec. Period. Oldmics, smarter than me, would know for sure. Vertecs are a fine cabinet. This was not a system problem, IMO.


If I had to guess, I would assume the maximum volume was around 95db, I suppose.I love that engineer. My goal is the same. The past month, I've had lauds from fans and house management alike, thanking me for that SPL and an intelligible mix. But I'm a smallfry - this is clubs not arenas. I saw the Dead in Pepsi Center, Denver. Sound was gawdawful, but not loud. We, as a group, need to motivate the artists out of arenas, where slaves were eaten by lions, and into properly fitted theatres.


Sorry to get the news about one of my favorite artists sounding poorly :(Mics, I believe you know, that was not the problem.


Large venues like that which are sports oriented usually result in exhibiting poor musical reinforcement preformances.+1


Although mixing at 95 db all nite long would be nice. :bouncy:It's actually, killer. But, it is astonishingly difficult to achieve, and not readily accepted (yet) by all.


Clapton/Winwood did an accustic set lasting about 15 minutes. The sound was very good - no muddled vocals, clear sound with good dynamic range.Lesser SPL overall excites the arena less. Less reverberation = less struggle. However, once the entire ensemble hit, there is no-way the FOH engineer can be expected to contain all that and present a reverberation-free mix - the hall argues with him all night long.


I don't go to large gigs anymore. I don't do arena gigs. I can count all of those on one hand. That is an easy decision.

What you are all frustrated with is arena acoustics. They had the best artist, best engineers, excellent system, and yet it sucked. Thankfully, FOH guys are getting the message and the SPL was low risk. That alone is very farout. However, no arena show will ever be as acoustically satisfying as a proper theatre venue, nor something out-of-doors.

[Fred Sanford]

Spoke with a singer from one of my old bands last night, he's very used to having PAs set up by me or my old PA partner. He saw the Clapton/Winwood show in NJ, and without my prompting said almost exactly the same things - murky vocals with the full band, great sounding acoustic set. He also said it was "essentially a hockey rink", and knew it was a challenge.

je

[robertbartsch]

Fred:
I knew I was not alone in judging the Izod Arena sound as poor - THX.

Although I have not been to Izod before, I have enjoyed many good sound systems in large 10K - 20K halls so I'm guessing accustic properties of the hall are important. Frankly, the 7 or 8 times I've been to NY Garden over many years the sound always suked so there must be something to the big-is-bad idea.

As a CPA, my analysis is, at an average ticket price of $100, the Clapton/Winwood show probably grossed $2.5 million (20K sports seats, + 5K seats on the arena floor) After paying the hall, security, sound rental, engineer, roadies, Ticketmaster, etc. the net profit probably was way below $1 million.

I would assume the $ net on a small forum of less than 5K seats would be a break even proposition at best. So, as a performer, why bother if incremental record/CD sales from a gig are near zero?

[grumpy]

...joy of playing for a receptive audience? :)

Just saw Jon Anderson (Yes) at what was essentially a beer hall near
Pismo Beach... maybe 200 attended. It was also his wife's birthday.
Made for a very pleasant experience, and it seemed that Jon was
enjoying the time as well.

[Andyoz]

As a CPA, my analysis is, at an average ticket price of $100, the Clapton/Winwood show probably grossed $2.5 million (20K sports seats, + 5K seats on the arena floor) After paying the hall, security, sound rental, engineer, roadies, Ticketmaster, etc. the net profit probably was way below $1 million.

I would assume the $ net on a small forum of less than 5K seats would be a break even proposition at best. So, as a performer, why bother if incremental record/CD sales from a gig are near zero?

The ideal number is around 15,000 people. That allows good sight lines and good sound if properly treated. That is what the industry is demanding worldwide so expect to see alot of new 15-20k multi-purpose venues appearing.

Venues with capacities less than that will struggle to get ther top artists as they will go elsewhere.

[John]

We have a new hockey arena in town for about 3-4 years that seats 15000 for a game. When they designed the arena it was built with the knowledge that to make it profitable they needed to keep it booked for more than about 40 games a year the hockey team would be using it. So they paid attention to the acoustics. Lots of baffles and curtains everywhere.
I have seen about 30 shows in the place including Eric Clapton about 2 years ago. I have always been on the floor within the first 10 rows near center and the sound has always been great to near CD quality. Just saw Leonard Cohen in April and the sound was fantastic as well. One show did have a bit of a blurry sound and that was Pearl Jam, But the tickets were free and so no loss. ;)

Also I caught Def Leopard in this building. They had JBL vertic's and about the same set up as descibed at the start of this thread. 2 hour show. First 60 min. were nice and loud. Next 30 min's was kind of nuts and then the last 30 min's was a encore and the volume was insane. I inserted my ear plugs but the slam on my chest was crazy and I could feel my hair on my head vibrating or maybe that was ripples in the fluid around my brain. Make no mistake these systems can crank louder than stuff from the 70,s and do so without damage, except to the listeners.:biting:

[Titanium Dome]

Make no mistake these systems can crank louder than stuff from the 70,s and do so without damage, except to the listeners.:biting:

That's quite a testimony there, and one I can attest to. :yes:

[JohanR]

I don't go to large gigs anymore. There is something just no quite right about the sound I'm hearing. There are issues with the midrange (snares sound weird now) and the bass is generally a disaster. the intent appears to be move loads of air but forget about tuneful bass where you can hear the bass guitar wire slap, etc.

When I went to see bands like Queen and Springsteen in the late 1970's I remember reflecting how good it sounded. Never happens today, it's better to insert the earplugs right before they start...

But it's not just big venues that tend to sound bad. I was at a show with a comedian that was supported by a jazz trio. This was at a proper concert hall, but it didn't stop them miking it out and making it sound really dreadful!

JohanR

[Andyoz]

But it's not just big venues that tend to sound bad. I was at a show with a comedian that was supported by a jazz trio. This was at a proper concert hall, but it didn't stop them miking it out and making it sound really dreadful!

JohanR

The thing I hate about alot of smaller venues is the sound engineer seems to foget there is a band on stage! The PA system is run so loud that there is no connection between what is happening on the stage and what is coming from the PA. It's more like listening to a band playing alon got pre-recorded track by the time the singal passes through all their effects.

What's so wrong with hearing a bit of the "natural" snare drum from the stage...?

[robertbartsch]

Until recently, all the shows I attended had stage amps - Fenders, Marsalls, Ampeg, etc.

What happended to these recently? All I see on the stage are floor monitors?

[jcrobso]

The venue was a new Church that was designed as a multimedia venue.
The Church seats about 4000~5000 in the western Chicago suburbs.
I usually try to sit close to the FOH engineer, I figure that I way I will hear what he hears. The sounds was good with the live band that was playing, I could understand the vocals. The speakers were 3 clusters that were flown, the ceiling area very dark and could not see any logos on the speakers.

The artists were Phil Keggy and Randy Stonehill both are long time Christian artists. Phil Keggy's guitar playing is easily on par with Clapton and other will known guitarists. I really enjoyed hearing both of them play again.

[CONVERGENCE]

Until recently, all the shows I attended had stage amps - Fenders, Marsalls, Ampeg, etc.

What happended to these recently? All I see on the stage are floor monitors?

Most big performers still use them. But for practical applications when televised broadcast is invloved with many performers DI boxes have been used since the mid eighties.

...........................

[Titanium Dome]

The artists were Phil Keggy and Randy Stonehill both are long time Christian artists. Phil Keggy's guitar playing is easily on par with Clapton and other will known guitarists. I really enjoyed hearing both of them play again.

You're a lucky guy to hear Phil. He's one of the best for sure.

I plugged him here:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=153115&postcount=25

'Though I did pan some of his Christian music, not for its content but for its sameness. Still, I'd go see him anytime.

[robertbartsch]

What makes for poor acustics in a large hall?

The Clapton Izod center is an oval shaped forum similar to a oblong salad bowl.

Since the seats are placed along all of the sides, I would have thought there would be no reverb when people filled the hall. In addition, the ceiling is so high so I would not think that it would cause sound to rumble around either.

In effect, this hall does not look like an ecco chamber but the sound was poor.

[JBL 4645]

Let me guess no picture taking allowed. :D Even after the concert?

[boputnam]

Until recently, all the shows I attended had stage amps - Fenders, Marsalls, Ampeg, etc.

What happended to these recently? All I see on the stage are floor monitors?


Most big performers still use them. But for practical applications when televised broadcast is invloved with many performers DI boxes have been used since the mid eighties.That's not exactly the story.

More and more, artists and engineers are working together to improve the overall sound. That starts with controlling the on-stage volume and lessening "stage wash" - the sound coming directly into the audience off the stage. Lessening this uncontrolled sound gives the FOH engineer a better chance to lessen gain and to deliver a cleaner mix - especially in arenas.

This started with the In Ear Monitor (IEM) trend a few years back, but now has also taken-hold of those using wedges, too. Many acts now have all their amps off stage, full volume, and mic'd normally, but these no longer blast directly onto stage and into the face of audience "on the rail".

Another approach is to rock the amps back, or turn them sideways, so they are less beamy into the audience. Look at some Bruce Springsteen photos - the one below shows both techniques (Marshall's firing upward; vintage Fender in brown firing across stage mic'd by a Shure SM57). Sprinsteen likes the live sound on-stage, so they have negotiated a truce where the amps fire anywhere but toward the audience. For audience sight-lines, their wedges often fire up through screens from below the stage...

[4343]

...

Another approach is to rock the amps back, or turn them sideways, so they are less beamy into the audience. Look at some Bruce Springsteen photos - the one below shows both techniques (Marshall's firing upward; vintage Fender in brown firing across stage mic'd by a Shure SM57). Sprinsteen likes the live sound on-stage, so they have negotiated a truce where the amps fire anywhere but toward the audience. For audience sight-lines, their wedges often fire up through screens from below the stage...


I read about another technique, putting the speaker in a box with a microphone. Started out as an empty foam-lined road case that had to be setup at each gig, but evolved into a dedicated case that you just plug the amp into, and run mic out to stage box...

[boputnam]

I read about another technique, putting the speaker in a box with a microphone. Started out as an empty foam-lined road case that had to be setup at each gig, but evolved into a dedicated case that you just plug the amp into, and run mic out to stage box...Yeah, I've seen that a number of times. They are called "dog houses", and often have a mic in front, and one in the rear of the amp cabinet that is run opposite polarity.

This stuff really works. At a small club recently, lacking off-stage area, we stuffed a '60's re-issue Fender Twin (with a single JBL 15" - oh, the joy!) under a baby grand and velvet draped the whole thing, close-mic'ing the cabinet. The piano might have needed retuning at the end of the night, but I was able to keep SPL to 93 dBA at FOH. It was sweet.