K2s9800 vs k2s9900

[Brian DK]

Hi.
I can't wait until the s9900 come to Denmark, so I can hear it.

Have any of you heard it yet.??
When i look at the spec. I wonder why they have raised the

Crossover frequency from 800hz to 900hz.?
And at the all low end the 9900's spec are 33hz -6db and the 9800 is 30hz -6db.
The s9900 has one port on the back
The s9800 has two ports on the back.

These two changes, will very likely make a diference in the bass.
But how wil it sound? compared to the 9800.??

Do any have an idea?
Maby from the specs.?
Maby you have heard both.??

regards Brian DK.

[4313B]

Greg says the 4-inch magnesium diaphragm in the 476Mg worked out really well and is almost as good as the 4-inch beryllium diaphragm in the 476Be used in the Everest II and much improved over the 3-inch beryllium diaphragmed 435Be used in the K2-S9800. There has always been an effortlessness in the JBL 4-inch diaphragmed compression drivers that one just can't get with the smaller diaphragmed 1.75-inch and 3-inch models. The K2-S9900 ended up being a very nice evolution of the K2-S9800. :yes:

The crossover network in the K2-S9900 is also current SOTA.

As far as the bottom end goes, the K2-S9800 uses the 1500AL in 4.0 cubic feet tuned to 30 Hz whereas the K2-S9900 uses the 1500AL-1 in 3.4 cubic feet tuned to 36 Hz. Despite the smaller volume the K2-S9900 only sheds about 20 pounds total weight from its predecessor.

[ngccglp]

There has always been an effortlessness in the JBL 4-inch diaphragmed compression drivers that one just can't get with the smaller diaphragmed 1.75-inch and 3-inch models.

I agree, which makes me wonder why JBL did not stick to the success formula of using 4 inch dia. So far, nothing beats the Altec 288G I've heard.

[Brian DK]

Greg says the 4-inch magnesium diaphragm in the 476Mg worked out really well and is almost as good as the 4-inch beryllium diaphragm in the 476Be used in the Everest II and much improved over the 3-inch beryllium diaphragmed 435Be used in the K2-S9800. There has always been an effortlessness in the JBL 4-inch diaphragmed compression drivers that one just can't get with the smaller diaphragmed 1.75-inch and 3-inch models. The K2-S9900 ended up being a very nice evolution of the K2-S9800. :yes:

The crossover network in the K2-S9900 is also current SOTA.

As far as the bottom end goes, the K2-S9800 uses the 1500AL in 4.0 cubic feet tuned to 30 Hz whereas the K2-S9900 uses the 1500AL-1 in 3.4 cubic feet tuned to 36 Hz. Despite the smaller volume the K2-S9900 only sheds about 20 pounds total weight from its predecessor.


Thanks for the fine info on the Magnesium drriver.
But i still wonder how the Bass will sound on the 9900 comparede to the 9800.?
Higher crosover freq - and less sound below 30hz. ?
How will that sound.?
It seems to me as it is a step back.??

[Brian DK]

Thanks for the fine info on the Magnesium drriver.
But i still wonder how the Bass will sound on the 9900 comparede to the 9800.?
Higher crosover freq - and less sound below 30hz. ?
How will that sound.?
It seems to me as it is a step back.??


s9800 has been put down on its lack of low freg.
And now the introduce a new model that is even worse.??
why.???
And raise the freq to 900hz.?
How will it sound on for instance a piano.??
Can the 15" woofer play the sound from a piano.?

[Mr. Widget]

But i still wonder how the Bass will sound on the 9900 comparede to the 9800.?
Higher crosover freq - and less sound below 30hz. ?
How will that sound.?
It seems to me as it is a step back.??Why would they replace their previous flagship speaker with an inferior one? That doesn't make any sense. I am sure that the actual sound quality of the new speaker exceeds that of it's predecessor when listened to by the trained listeners at JBL... will any one particular individual prefer the K2-S9800 over the other? Sure there is always personal preference, but JBL fully tests these things by careful listening tests with large panels of listeners... while the design may seem counter intuitive on paper, I am sure the new speaker is superior.


Widget

[Mr. Widget]

s9800 has been put down on its lack of low freg.
And now the introduce a new model that is even worse.??Other than speculation here by folks who either never heard the K2-S9800 or heard them in less than optimal settings, I am not aware of the bass response being universally condemned for lack of low frequency output.


Widget

[4313B]

Other than speculation here by folks who either never heard the K2-S9800 or heard them in less than optimal settings, I am not aware of the bass response being universally condemned for lack of low frequency output.Agreed.


The people who actually have the cash to buy either model seem pretty darn happy to write the check. :yes:

I have to say that I really like the way the new woofers with the "banana curves" integrate with a typical living room. :banana:

[Brian DK]

Why would they replace their previous flagship speaker with an inferior one? That doesn't make any sense. I am sure that the actual sound quality of the new speaker exceeds that of it's predecessor when listened to by the trained listeners at JBL... will any one particular individual prefer the K2-S9800 over the other? Sure there is always personal preference, but JBL fully tests these things by careful listening tests with large panels of listeners... while the design may seem counter intuitive on paper, I am sure the new speaker is superior.


Widget


Dont get me wrong Widget.
I my self is a happy ovner of the s9800 (non SE version)
And I love the sound..
But i personaly would like som more output in the end below 35hz.
And I have read reviewers that have the same opinion.
It is not even close to a full range speaker.?

i sometime wonder if I should by a sub or two. (maybe 1500Array.)
Is it because Jbl prefer setups with subs.?

[Mr. Widget]

i sometime wonder if I should by a sub or two. (maybe 1500Array.)
Is it because Jbl prefer setups with subs.?I really like those subs and if you feel the need for deeper bass, then that sounds like an excellent direction for you to take.

The thing is that bass is very room and position dependent... these speakers were designed with a very particular type of sound in mind, for those who wish greater deep bass output there is always the sub option... if they had massive amounts of deep bass extension without a sub and they were placed in some rooms, the sound could be intolerable and there would be little that one could do to alleviate the massive bass loading.


Widget

[BMWCCA]

Don't know if this guy is a member here and might comment, but this came from a thread on Audiogon:


I bought the K29800 (standard version) strictly for 2 channel. I needed to learn about them, make sure they were as good as many of my Cello friends indicated.

Indeed they were. I had run many of the speakers above mentioned and had the CJ set up with B&W Sig 800s which I felt were as good as I had heard. When I dropped the K2 in place of the S800s, I was SHOCKED at the dynamics of the speakers and the coherence of the JBL.

The bottom end was strikingly deeper and more 'gutty' than the S800s. I have not heard many speakers that can actually play full range, which is why I am a beliver that most every speaker needs a sub to play true full range at refernece levels.

Like the Quad 989, the K2 is greatly improved when the Velodyne DD-18 is added, as would ANY speaker, imo.

I have not found ANY downside of the K2 and enjoy them so much that I bought two pair of four pair of gloss black SE versions JBL made. For 2 channel, I have yet to hear better. I have friend that run the largest Wilson speakers, with the individual sub towers, which I will heading over to listen to in March.

I did hear a slight tighter/quicker bottom end with the SE and the top end slightly less pronouced. Both benefits to the SE over the non-SE.

[4313B]

Is it because Jbl prefer setups with subs.?Not necessarily... as we've said before, they work best as designed in the primary marketplace - Japan. The Japanese drive the market and that's just how they like it.

North American HT definitely prefers the subwoofer solution.

Greg personally adds a bit of EQ to the bottom end of his four 1500AL's.


I really like those subs and if you feel the need for deeper bass, then that sounds like an excellent direction for you to take.

The thing is that bass is very room and position dependent... these speakers were designed with a very particular type of sound in mind, for those who wish greater deep bass output there is always the sub option... if they had massive amounts of deep bass extension without a sub and they were placed in some rooms, the sound could be intolerable and there would be little that one could do to alleviate the massive bass loading.


Widget:yes:

[spkrman57]

I use JBL 2225/2226 15" drivers that roll off below 60hz and have usable down to around 40hz. I would say as far as LF extension they are similiar to the 1500AL and 1501AL drivers, not quality-wise of course as the 2225/2226 drivers are much cheaper to buy.

I like the sound I hear from most of my music.

15% of my music would benefit from a powered sub. I have subs around doing nothing but I don't miss the ELF enough to bother hooking them up!

Regards, Ron

[JBLAddict]

I really like those subs and if you feel the need for deeper bass, then that sounds like an excellent direction for you to take.

The thing is that bass is very room and position dependent... these speakers were designed with a very particular type of sound in mind, for those who wish greater deep bass output there is always the sub option... if they had massive amounts of deep bass extension without a sub and they were placed in some rooms, the sound could be intolerable and there would be little that one could do to alleviate the massive bass loading.


Widget


exactly, if you were to measure most live music, what would be the curve from 0-30Hz?

I'll buy the constant sub-recommendations I see on this and other forums when considering the trains, plains, automobiles, rockets, bombs in movies, but the vast majority of the fine speakers discussed here are for their acoustic qualities wrt the reproduction of MUSIC, either live or recorded. The K2 are not designed with the home theatre enthusiast in mind, I'm quite certain....

Emphasizing more xLFE information than I currently receive from my L7 with well powered, dual 12" LE120-H1's would simply make almost any music I listen to unrealistic (in fact in my current positioning 3ft from the back and side walls, I would still consider EQing down some LF)....OK the garbage I hear from a car 2miles away might benefit but that's not music anyway :D

[Allanvh5150]

It is better to go with a sub on pretty much any system. The main reason, IMHO, is the fact that is is near impossible for a driver to produce 30Hz and at the same time faithfully reproduce all the other frequencies up the crossover point.

Allan.

[Horn Savant]

s9800 (non SE version)
?
What is SE version?

[Brian DK]

What is SE version?

SE version is the first opgrade from s9800.
The change is a few Components in the crossover.
And different colors on the cabinet.

[hjames]

What is SE version?

Special Edition - its an improved version ...

[Horn Savant]

Boutique 2" compression driver from Michigan also uses BE !
http://classicaudioloudspeakers.com/cgi-bin/index.pl?fs=2&upper=29&content=30

Good to see Michigan putting all those machine tools to use

[Ducatista47]

It is better to go with a sub on pretty much any system. The main reason, IMHO, is the fact that is is near impossible for a driver to produce 30Hz and at the same time faithfully reproduce all the other frequencies up the crossover point.

Allan.

I agree. In fact folks here are tired of my saying so. I do happen to have an exception in my listening room, but being vintage it probably does not compare with the newest wonders. 4345's have it all, but the price is four way crossover complexity (less coherent, everything else being equal, which it never is of course) and the diffuse imaging of the necessarily huge front baffle. And of course a huge enclosure. These are the only exception to the have-to-have-a sub rule I can think of that actually sound great. On the plus side, they are superbly balanced, effortlessly dynamic, accurate, more musical than perhaps any other studio monitor (go 2245H/2122H!) and efficient enough to please at any volume with modest amplification when biamped. Oh yes, flat to about 32hz, for real with no minus 6dB BS. Listen to a 30hz test tone and tell me what I am missing with two channel music. Hint - nothing.

It is not the speaker I listen to the most, but everyone who hears them forgives me for praising them as much as I do. 4345's, the one and only. No sub needed in homes larger than are customary in Japan. A great 18" woofer and a 290hz crossover make for a unique animal. If USA customers bought good speakers in numbers like the Japanese do, the 18" approach would rule. Look at this frequency response chart to see what speakers for America should be doing. http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/specs/pro-speakers/1981-4345/page03.jpg

Clark

[4313B]

Here's a cute little graphic from days gone by.

Oh, and -2 dB at 25 Hz way back in 1977.

[Zilch]

I agree, which makes me wonder why JBL did not stick to the success formula of using 4 inch dia. So far, nothing beats the Altec 288G I've heard.Perhaps because Altec 288G is 2.8"...? :dont-know

http://www.altecpro.com/pdfs/vintage/SpeakerAndMics/drivers/288-8G%20288-16G%20HF%20Drivers.pdf

[grumpy]

(apologies to Axl)

who wanted to see foldy repro lenses? :) (HL89/2390)

http://classicaudioloudspeakers.com/cgi-bin/index.pl?fs=2&upper=29&content=30

... scroll to the bottom. Not sure I want to ask about prices, but they apparently exist.

(link courtesy of HornSavant)

[Uncle Paul]

I'm curious about the differences between the H9800 and the K2S9900 (H9900?) horns. I know the horizontal flares have a different radius, but is the verticle profile different as well?

[4313B]

I'm curious about the differences between the H9800 and the K2S9900 (H9900?) horns. I know the horizontal flares have a different radius, but is the verticle profile different as well?Unfortunately at this point in the life of the forum I would have to suggest that you go to a trade show or other event that JBL Consumer is participating in and pose your question there.

[jblsound]

Here's a cute little graphic from days gone by.

Oh, and -2 dB at 25 Hz way back in 1977.

Ya, and wall mounting those L212s gives even more bass output. I've got my customs wall mounted in this room, running full range w/o sub, in nearfield setup. Sweet!

[jomina]

The design of the 9900 and 9800 and the other "banana response" JBLs isideal for the Japanese market. Put them into a Japanese room and, as if by magic, they turn into full-range or near-as full range as it matters speakers by the "miracle" of acoustics.
If more Americans and Europeans were prepared to pay $40k for very large JBLs, I'm sure GT would be called upon to design speakers ideally suited for those markets.

[4313B]

The design of the 9900 and 9800 and the other "banana response" JBL's is ideal for the Japanese market. Put them into a Japanese room and, as if by magic, they turn into full-range or near-as full range as it matters speakers by the "miracle" of acoustics.
If more Americans and Europeans were prepared to pay $40k for very large JBLs, I'm sure GT would be called upon to design speakers ideally suited for those markets.:thmbsup:

[BMWCCA]

If more Americans and Europeans were prepared to pay $40k for very large JBLs, I'm sure GT would be called upon to design speakers ideally suited for those markets.We know American's buy those tarted-up Toyotas badged as Lexus like they were bottled water—many of them jacked-up TWO-wheel-drive SUVs, for chrissake! Obviously there's a demand for high-line items in the USA if we're proven consumers for something masquerading as high-line but aimed at not offending anyone while only being a step-up in engineering from a rental car. The difference is Marketing. One might also throw in Distribution. These exist only in the most cursory fashion within H-K in the USA with respect to selling high-line, large, and/or expensive JBLs here. Toyota, on the other hand, has mastered the art. (Have you ever driven a Prius??)

If a low-life schlemiel like me can drop $everal thou$and for clones of a hulking twenty-year-old studio monitor, then there's a market for JBL in this country for the JBL name attached to new, real speaker systems. But we don't even get a crack at the affordable stuff. Judging by the price paid in Japan for old JBL stuff, it's mostly a status thing anyway. But that really is the essence of marketing: when you have a name-brand you milk it for all you can, while you can. JBL USA isn't even trying. They're simply watching the pretty orange sunset. :banghead:

[MikeBrewster77]

The design of the 9900 and 9800 and the other "banana response" JBLs isideal for the Japanese market. Put them into a Japanese room and, as if by magic, they turn into full-range or near-as full range as it matters speakers by the "miracle" of acoustics.

So ..... where are yours? I don't remember seeing them in pictures of your system (and I figure they'd be kinda hard to miss.) :p


If more Americans and Europeans were prepared to pay $40k for very large JBLs, I'm sure GT would be called upon to design speakers ideally suited for those markets.

There's two things at play here: First, the market for high-end audio remains very strong in the United States, but when you distill a brand down by selling cutesy, mass-marketed iPod type thingies, you tend to lose some of the brand's cache. You don't see McIntosh selling that crap, which probably explains why over half of their revenue is still derived from the American market.

Second, if you do want to reach into the high-end, you have to market your product appropriately through either a dealer network (no, not Best Buy) and/or advertisements in outlets that reach your target demographic.

So, yeah - there may not be a market for $40K JBL's in the US, but certainly don't believe there isn't a market for $40K speakers. Why that may be I'll leave for you to decide.

Then again, you could always diversify your product line and design to various price points, rather than solely focus on the extreme high-end, and the very bottom end. But I think we've been over all of this ad nauseum :rolleyes: and my thoughts on issues with JBL's product availability, marketing strategies, and product line diversification certainly don't seem to be hurting Harman's bottom line - especially since the bulk of what hits it comes from car audio. :p

[4313B]

I think JBL has the market fairly well covered. The stuff that sells in North America is available in the appropriate venues and the stuff that sells in Japan is available in the appropriate venues. JBL has seen these threads and the response has always been "They just don't understand big business." I don't know what else to say about that.

Their strategy seems to work pretty well. The tire kickers don't have access to the good stuff in North America anymore because there would be no point and the guys with the money have full access. That's what the JBL Synthesis Dealer is all about. Carefully note that this is just one of many examples of the widening distance between the middle class (which is shrinking by the hour) and the upper class.

For an example of "access" see Titanium Dome's threads on a Synthesis installation. That's kind of how it's done folks. If you have time, drop by JBL in Northridge and talk to the Synthesis guys.


As for the bass response of the new systems and the snide remarks made on various North American forums? JBL couldn't care less. Why? Because the people that buy such items don't care either. They want what they want, they write the check and the deal is done. I know that if I had $40k to drop on a pair of loudspeakers the S9900's would be on their way to me right now. :yes:


If a low-life schlemiel like me can drop $everal thou$and for clones of a hulking twenty-year-old studio monitor, then there's a market for JBL in this country for the JBL name attached to new, real speaker systems.I've been playing around with some 4344 Mk II clones the past few months as time permits (prior to them it was 4355's and 4345's, AGAIN) and my assessment is, it takes a whole bag of bucks to get anything from JBL today that can beat these ancient large format studio monitors. They are tons of fun. As Greg mentioned, those systems would cost a bloody fortune today. Oh wait... yeah... that would be a K2 or E2. ;)

[BMWCCA]

Their strategy seems to work pretty well. The tire kickers don't have access to the good stuff in North America anymore because there would be no point and the guys with the money have full access. That's what the JBL Synthesis Dealer is all about. Carefully note that this is just one of many examples of the widening distance between the middle class (which is shrinking by the hour) and the upper class.

For an example of "access" see Titanium Dome's threads on a Synthesis installation. That's kind of how it's done folks. If you have time, drop by JBL in Northridge and talk to the Synthesis guys.Fair enough. But didn't T-dome have to find a dealer not even in his market area to supply what he wanted? I know I'm beating a dead horse but isn't there a market for the L80/L90-type JBL here, too? Nothing wrong with marketing a reputable entry-level product to keep your name alive among those aspirational and younger buyers who may very well be in your upper-market range in the future! I get the class issue, but these days "class" can be being in the right place at the right time when your government is auctioning off radio frequencies. Or shooting the big ball through the orange hoop. Class in this case is an abuse of the English language. And what Mercedes pandered to (and failed at) with the Maybach. You build a loyal clientele. If JBL thinks selling a handful of Everests is "big business" they'd better check that balance sheet again. Marketing a viable, JBL-representable, entry-level ($4,000/pair or less) home speaker model gives JBL consumer a solid base for the future that car-audio can't.

I just want JBL to be around when my successful kids finally wear out my old L-series! But them my (and their) idea of "success" just might not include the income to drop $40k on speakers. Come the revolution, maybe no one's will. :D

[4313B]

Fair enough. But didn't T-dome have to find a dealer not even in his market area to supply what he wanted?I think that was a price issue. I could be wrong but that was my impression.

[jomina]

So ..... where are yours?I don't think you've seen pictures of the 4311s or the 20 JBL speakers in the meeting rooms that I specced (would have been Bozo otherwise).
I don't have $40k to spend on speakers. I could put together the 10 or 12 it would require for s/h 9800s or similar, but want to be absolutely and completely certain I can get them to work in my room. Having been burned by expensive speakers before, that won't happen again. I also need to make space in the room.
In addition, the speakers I use at home now are very good indeed and cost me less than a pair of s/h 4311s would. JBL can make extraordinarily good transducers, but they are not alone in this.
Sorry if you find this off message, the mods can delete my posts if they find them pointless or offensive or whatever.
Thanks for your continuing interest in my system, though.

[MikeBrewster77]

I don't have $40k to spend on speakers...In addition, the speakers I use at home now are very good indeed and cost me less than a pair of s/h 4311s would.

Therin lies at least one of the problems, and apparently irrespective of market.


Sorry if you find this off message
Not at all


Thanks for your continuing interest in my system, though.
Absolutely welcome

[jblsound]

Fair enough. If JBL thinks selling a handful of Everests is "big business" they'd better check that balance sheet again. Marketing a viable, JBL-representable, entry-level ($4,000/pair or less) home speaker model gives JBL consumer a solid base for the future that car-audio can't.


I think JBL has sold more than a handful of Everest. I think the last thing I saw was that JBL has sold double the targeted number in only 2 1/2 years.
Has already sold a $1M worth of s9900s since March.

I don't think $4,000/pr qualifies as enty level, bit high. But being we're talking $4K, you could have bought a pair of PS stacks (2 PT800/2 PS1400) for about that from the Harman online store. So why didn't you?

[BMWCCA]

I think JBL has sold more than a handful of Everest. I think the last thing I saw was that JBL has sold double the targeted number in only 2 1/2 years.
Has already sold a $1M worth of s9900s since March.

I don't think $4,000/pr qualifies as enty level, bit high. But being we're talking $4K, you could have bought a pair of PS stacks (2 PT800/2 PS1400) for about that from the Harman online store. So why didn't you?I thought I was done with this thread but so be it.

We were talking about US sales. How many Everests have been sold here? When did they even introduce it here? A year after Japan and Europe? And why I didn't buy PS stacks from Harmon on-line is the same reason we've been discussing here for years: No place to hear them. No place to see them (they look like something from K-mart, anyway ;) ). Marketing is more than dumping your surplus on Ebay or your own on-line tent sale. Maybe your upper-class Japanese buyer will plunk down their money for a status symbol. I want to hear them first. But of course they're not the ones buying the PS either. They want something that looks just like the anachronism I bought! Even the new models they get are playing off the old JBLs. That's obviously a marketing hook that works for JBL Japan.

And as for "entry-level", my proposal was $4,000 or under. What does the new L-series sell for in Europe?

So what about those Everest-IIs on Ebay Europe? Hot commodity? Those weren't even built yet and the JBL dealer was dumping them on Ebay. Show me some facts. BMW says they're sold out of the horrid new X6 dysfunctional "sport" activity "coupe". For them, that means their production is all allocated to their dealers, many of whom are running out of parking space for them. But they're "sold out"! Hah.

More car/Everest analogies? BMW's Rolls-Royce increased their sales for 2008 20% over 2007. That's a whopping 202 more cars world-wide, and 38% of the total sales went to North America. But really, 1,200 cars sold worldwide is a going concern? Even at that price? What would Rolls do if it didn't have BMW and their entry-level 3-series cars and MINIs to support it? Icon? Sure! Marketing? Sure!! Healthy business model? Not by itself. Halo? Maybe, but you have to have accessible lower-line products for a halo product to make any marketing sense. Do you think the Everest sells more iPod docs for H-K? ;)

But perhaps the real reason for JBL's success in Japan is the unnatural Japanese "penchant for Americana" as described in a recent NY Times fashion article (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/17/fashion/18codes.html?_r=1) my daughter just sent me (photos shot at her alma mater). Among the pertinent highlights:
The Japanese penchant for Americana is not merely a story of economics; it is a matter of style. It has not been unusual for Japanese men to wear the Ivy look in head-to-toe extremes once unthinkable here — say, a blazer, tie, plaid shorts and knee socks. But given the zeal for American designers like Thom Browne and Scott Sternberg of Band of Outsiders, who tinker with old-fashioned Americana (and whose lines are made in the United States and are very popular in Japan), extremism is finally becoming fashionable here.

[MikeBrewster77]

If JBL thinks selling a handful of Everests is "big business" they'd better check that balance sheet again. Marketing a viable, JBL-representable, entry-level ($4,000/pair or less) home speaker model gives JBL consumer a solid base for the future that car-audio can't.


If this post wanders slightly OT at times, I apologize in advance, but …

I think Phil’s hitting the mark here. I grew up with JBL’s and have related my awe-inspiring first experience with them in another thread. As I grew into this hobby, JBL was my prime target in terms of speakers. I got my first pair when I inherited my parents’ L46’s because of a blown tweeter. Admittedly, I bastardized them (slightly :o:) to get them back up and running again, but I was enamored with the sound.

My folks purchased those speakers in 1985 at a retail of $298 for the pair - $592 in constant currency today according to the CPI inflation statistics. Granted, they were “entry-level” JBL, but they’re solidly built, they [still] sound [relatively] good, and have held their own in the 2-way bookshelf space when compared to many of today’s offerings across multiple brands. My parents weren’t and aren’t the most affluent people, but they enjoy good audio and found a way to manage the purchase. They weren’t going to buy today’s equivalent of a $40K speaker, but they weren’t going to purchase junk either.

As I got a bit older, I tried to find a comparable JBL product because I’m a pretty brand-loyal guy. I purchased some Northridge E-series and a Bass 2 sub (I got it outside of the “Music” system as an open box special.) The build quality and sound were still good, and comparable to what my previous experience with JBL’s entry level offerings were.

Fast forward a bit (and a few S/H JBL’s later) and as things (and my budget) progressed, I started looking for upgrades; surprisingly, I couldn’t find JBL anywhere in the market. Frustrated, I moved on to other brands, including a very recent purchase of B&W’s, which - while very enjoyable speakers - will be sitting on Audiogon for sale within the next week; I’ve had them less than four months.

If it hadn’t been for nostalgia and my desire to buy a pair of L46’s for giggles, I wouldn’t have found this forum, and can honestly say I would have absolutely no idea that JBL was putting out anything these days aside from the aforementioned plastic-y iPod-related shit. Luckily, through spending time here (and ONLY by spending time here) I have learned a lot about what JBL’s recent offerings are, and have a set of PT800’s on their way. Granted, I have absolutely no idea what they’ll sound like when they get here, but that’s the sucky part of buying on faith and the opinions of others.

I guess the point is that I’m a perfect example of how a company can successfully grow a consumer base organically through tiered, quality product offerings - penetrating a substantial and diversified market that includes consumers who fall somewhere above $400 but below $40K. In fact, if you do it right and don’t take too many rungs out of the ladder they’re trying to climb, they’ll move up the product line with you as their purchasing power increases.

But, enough of my tirade. Suffice it so say that a “big business” (if that’s what Harman wants to call themselves) can thrive through a robust distribution network, targeted marketing, and a diversified product line. Maybe they don’t want JBL to be that kind of company anymore, and the business side of me says that’s OK if they’re fulfilling stakeholders’ expectations, though I think it's an extremely short-sighted approach. But, if you have no long-term vision, well then hell, go ahead - stratify the brand away, alienate the middle-market, saturate outlets with crap, and completely suck the maximum ROI out of the brand until that strategy completely implodes, and JBL becomes a pure commodity brand with absolutely no lustre if you think that's going to get you to the $5B mark. The human side of me that grew up with the brand finds that very sad of course, but hey - I guess that’s progress. :dont-know

But, yeah - we've been through ALL this before, and I don't know anything about big business anyway... :rolleyes:

[Mr. Widget]

And why I didn't buy PS stacks from Harmon on-line is the same reason we've been discussing here for years...Feel free to dump on Harman, but please spell it correctly. Thanks.

Sorry, but so many folks that rant about the corporate policies of Harman International, don't even seem to know the actual name of the company.


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[BMWCCA]

Feel free to dump on Harman, but please spell it correctly. Thanks. :D Yeah, and I'm normally the one making that correction—frequently—in proofing a magazine about BMWs (harman/kardon®) it's only appropriate I should make that mistake here . . . and that you (of all people) should take the opportunity to contribute such a value-added post to bring it to my attention! ;)

Which only encourages me to add yet another anecdote: At one time I had a good friend (now deceased) with whom I served on an executive board. His first name was Harmon. At the same time, our liaison at BMW NA had the last name of Harman. I admit the second-to-last letter of that name has given me fits and pauses ever since.

:cheers:

[Ian Mackenzie]

I think JBL has the market fairly well covered. The stuff that sells in North America is available in the appropriate venues and the stuff that sells in Japan is available in the appropriate venues.

As for the bass response of the new systems and the snide remarks made on various North American forums? JBL couldn't care less. Why? Because the people that buy such items don't care either. They want what they want, they write the check and the deal is done. I know that if I had $40k to drop on a pair of loudspeakers the S9900's would be on their way to me right now. :yes:

I've been playing around with some 4344 Mk II clones the past few months as time permits (prior to them it was 4355's and 4345's, AGAIN) and my assessment is, it takes a whole bag of bucks to get anything from JBL today that can beat these ancient large format studio monitors. They are tons of fun. As Greg mentioned, those systems would cost a bloody fortune today. Oh wait... yeah... that would be a K2 or E2. ;)

I totally agree.

Its all very well the write as well all like to do from time to time but once you actually hear these systems as (in Japan and USA) it takes on whole new dimension.

Reality is there is a whole lot less to talk about once you actually experience these systems and it would seem the JBL followers in Japan spend their money and listen.

In one jazz bar in Japan where 4344mk11's were sofit installed talking was forbidden.

Perhaps we should introduce "non talking" threads where people only write about what they actually hear out of this gear.



But perhaps the real reason for JBL's success in Japan is the unnatural Japanese "penchant for Americana" as described in a recent NY Times fashion article (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/17/fashion/18codes.html?_r=1) my daughter just sent me (photos shot at her alma mater). Among the pertinent highlights:


Not really, that statement is a journalistic excuse of why its not working for us anymore!

While the modern Japan certainly has been influenced by western society (if you know anything about Japanese history you don't need to read Forbes or Time magazine) but the fact is JBL has been an on going success in Japan for decades.

Most of the 4343's went to Japan and a lot of other stuff long before that.

[Horn Savant]

I like that BIG horn (2346) in the original Everest, looks like it would go down to 200 hz ? With high slope electronic X'over ? Its 800hz X'over seemed high - even by historic JBL standards.

[Robh3606]

looks like it would go down to 200 hz ? With high slope electronic X'over ? Its 800hz X'over seemed high - even by historic JBL standards.

It has a 1" throat so 800Hz is just fine. Certainly don't want to take a small format compresion driver lower than that.

Rob:)

[jblsound]

We were talking about US sales. How many Everests have been sold here? When did they even introduce it here? A year after Japan and Europe?

Actually, the Everest II was shown at the Jan. '07 CES in LV, which would have been about 4 months after they premiered in Toyko.



And why I didn't buy PS stacks from Harmon on-line is the same reason we've been discussing here for years: No place to hear them. No place to see them (they look like something from K-mart, anyway ;) ). Marketing is more than dumping your surplus on Ebay or your own on-line tent sale. Maybe your upper-class Japanese buyer will plunk down their money for a status symbol. I want to hear them first. But of course they're not the ones buying the PS either. They want something that looks just like the anachronism I bought! Even the new models they get are playing off the old JBLs. That's obviously a marketing hook that works for JBL Japan.

When I first read the PS review in a mag back in the spring of '02 I looked everwhere for a demo. None to be seen anywhere in NV or NoCal. Totally bummed. It wasn't until about 4 years later that the PS showed up on the Harman online factory store.

But between reading the review and having JBLs since '73 and the fact the PT800 was really an updated version of the '77 L212 I figured "what the hell" when I find some to buy online, I'll get them, unheard.

Well they were everything I thought they would be. Are the boxes a bit cheesy, with vinyl instead of wood veneer, yes, but the sound is more important. Its the main thing.
The fact that you refused to buy them is your total loss, imo.

But you can experience what the PT800 is, and then some, at a Revel dealer, in the form of the Revel Gem2.

[Mr. Widget]

Are the boxes a bit cheesy, with vinyl instead of wood veneer, yes, but the sound is more important. Its the main thing.This probably belongs on the PS thread, but I imagine those somewhat cheesy boxes are a big part of why the Performance Series has been such a sales dud. I think they blew it when they signed off on that design. They might agree... yes sound is the main thing, but I'll be damned if I am going to put something that I detest the looks of in my living room... especially when there are so many much more acceptable alternatives out there.



But you can experience what the PT800 is, and then some, at a Revel dealer, in the form of the Revel Gem2.
The Revel Gem2 is certainly an update of this design, a significant improvement in every area, but they are damned pricy. I imagine if JBL had originally come out with the Performance Series at a 10% higher cost, and a better looking design with real wood, they might have actually been carried by dealers and may have actually been sold in respectable numbers.


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[jblsound]

This probably belongs on the PS thread, but I imagine those somewhat cheesy boxes are a big part of why the Performance Series has been such a sales dud. I think they blew it when they signed off on that design. They might agree... yes sound is the main thing, but I'll be damned if I am going to put something that I detest the looks of in my living room... especially when there are so many much more acceptable alternatives out there.


The Revel Gem2 is certainly an update of this design, a significant improvement in every area, but they are damned pricy. I imagine if JBL had originally come out with the Performance Series at a 10% higher cost, and a better looking design with real wood, they might have actually been carried by dealers and may have actually been sold in respectable numbers.


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Yes, I would prefer the looks of the Gem2 hanging on the walls. But the shape of the PT800 I find quite nice, with its chamfered corners. They look nicer hanging on the walls than the L212, as the PT800 is slightly narrower and chamfered corners make them look even smaller.

But as far as the sales, or lack of, its equally due to, I think, that very few people looking to buy speakers in that price range knew the PS even existed. I would not, had I not read the review of them in '02.

[Titanium Dome]

While JBL is a big part of the Harman family, it's a long way from being the only part. One of the challenges of a conglomerate is keeping product lines distinct and not overlapping and cannibalizing other brands. This is very hard, especially when divisions might want to do similar things and are competing for resources.

We lament when some brands Harman acquires get retired, but the reality is that not everything finds a way to coexist within the family in a way that makes sense. Thank goodness these decisions are not made by partisans like us, or the Harman matrix of products would be even more complex and confusing than it is.

JBL has not always fared well in this environment, but it has fared better than many others, and JBL Consumer, JBL Pro, and specialty JBL Synthesis® lines have been remarkably resilient and fortunate in this respect. Not everything is as we'd like, but it's pretty darn good. We'd be hard pressed to find another brand that runs the gamut from $49 iPod docks to $200,000 Synthesis® systems. Not many companies would have all this available in its home country.

Yes, marketing is ineffective, distribution is sketchy, and availability is a problem. Somehow, I bet someone is working on that, not just for JBL but for the whole of Harman. Some parts of it just work, and some don't. The day they figure it out, watch out.

[4313B]

Oh yes, flat to about 32hz, for real with no minus 6dB BS.I had to dig out my notes on Greg's current design criteria to address this statement properly (keep in mind that he did the 4345 28 years ago when he was still doing double duty at JBL Consumer and JBL Professional). He made the following statement with respect to Everest II:

"I want my roll-off. It's flat to sixty and about ten dB down at thirty. The K2 (S9800) is thirteen at thirty, the Array is seven at thirty. And seven is about as much as I'd want. If you get any more, by the time you include the room you get too much bass."

This might help shed a little light on the minus 6 dB BS. :) I'm not picking on anyone in particular; There are numerous people posting on the Internet about the weak bottom end of the Everest II. Unfortunately none of them have actually heard a pair. ;)

Also keep in mind the intended venues. Systems like the 4345 and 4355 don't require a whole lot of boundary reinforcement - translation - you don't stuff them in corners and then expect any kind of realistic low frequency performance.