Upgrading model 19

[joaquin]

Hi , congratulations , excelent forum , im from Chile and would like to have some advise .

Any body has matched an 802 8G with the H91 horns from JBL? I was told that this configuration would sound better than the original 811B horn , also i will add a couple of 077 tweeters . Any experience ? :blink:

[JBLRaiser]

Hi , congratulations , excelent forum , im from Chile and would like to have some advise .

Any body has matched an 802 8G with the H91 horns from JBL? I was told that this configuration would sound better than the original 811B horn , also i will add a couple of 077 tweeters . Any experience ? :blink:

Messing with success is more mess than success. Both systems were designed by far more capable people than anyone on this forum. No offense to our congregation.:D

[BMWCCA]

Both systems were designed by far more capable people than anyone on this forum. :DWhat about the EconoWave®? ;)

[speakerdave]

Hi , congratulations , excelent forum , im from Chile and would like to have some advise .

Any body has matched an 802 8G with the H91 horns from JBL? I was told that this configuration would sound better than the original 811B horn , also i will add a couple of 077 tweeters . Any experience ? :blink:

Mixing and matching horns and drivers is not as simple as it looks, because each combination requires its own purpose-made crossover--especially if you are mixing components from different manufacturers.

If someone is telling your a certain combination would sound better I assume they've done it and worked out a crossover. Ask them. If not, then you might be better off disregarding their advice.

What is the problem you are hearing with the Altec 811b?

[JBLRaiser]

What about the EconoWave®? ;)

take this on.

[sbjacob]

Hi , congratulations , excelent forum , im from Chile and would like to have some advise .

Any body has matched an 802 8G with the H91 horns from JBL? I was told that this configuration would sound better than the original 811B horn , also i will add a couple of 077 tweeters . Any experience ? :blink:You can check out this site Al Klappenbrg. has ESN designed for use with Altec drivers and JBL tweeters and Beyma tweeters you can switch it from 2-way to a 3-way.However you would have to use the 511B horn
http://www.alkeng.com/

[joaquin]

Mixing and matching horns and drivers is not as simple as it looks, because each combination requires its own purpose-made crossover--especially if you are mixing components from different manufacturers.

If someone is telling your a certain combination would sound better I assume they've done it and worked out a crossover. Ask them. If not, then you might be better off disregarding their advice.

What is the problem you are hearing with the Altec 811b?

Really i don´t find any problem , but some comments that the 811B produce strident sounds , that was designed for a theater not for a room.

[speakerdave]

Really i don´t find any problem , but some comments that the 811B produce strident sounds , that was designed for a theater not for a room.

Many experimenters (and Altec) have found improvement in the Altec horns by dampening the ringing using various techniques, coating it with duct seal, for example.

Beyond that, many of the Altec systems had a prominent midrange balance, which seemed to work well when listening though a perforated screen in the theater, but for hi fi at home not so much, especially after the first excitement is worn off. There has been a good deal of work here and elsewhere, as the other posters have alluded, modifying the Altec crossovers, as, again, Altec did late in its life.

If you have model nineteens I believe you already have a crossover that makes the necessary adjustments.

If you have the foam plugs for the sides of the horns, the one thing to do with those speakers would be to coat the exterior of the horn body and lips with some dampening material. Late in its life Altec made at least one horn, the 511E, coated with an aquaplas like material. They also did not use welds at the center of the sectioning fins, but filled the space with aquaplas. These measures make a huge difference in the sound of the horns. Beyond that the only thing I can think of is to try emilar EH800 bowtie horns which are a much heavier casting. But they still need to be damped.

Other than that, I would say, if you do not like the Nineteens, you may not be an Altec fan.

Also, you may be allowing yourself to be unnecessarily concerned by random comments by others about some speaker similar to yours.

[joaquin]

Many experimenters (and Altec) have found improvement in the Altec horns by dampening the ringing using various techniques, coating it with duct seal, for example.

Beyond that, many of the Altec systems had a prominent midrange balance, which seemed to work well when listening though a perforated screen in the theater, but for hi fi at home not so much, especially after the first excitement is worn off. There has been a good deal of work here and elsewhere, as the other posters have alluded, modifying the Altec crossovers, as, again, Altec did late in its life.

If you have model nineteens I believe you already have a crossover that makes the necessary adjustments.

If you have the foam plugs for the sides of the horns, the one thing to do with those speakers would be to coat the exterior of the horn body and lips with some dampening material. Late in its life Altec made at least one horn, the 511E, coated with an aquaplas like material. They also did not use welds at the center of the sectioning fins, but filled the space with aquaplas. These measures make a huge difference in the sound of the horns. Beyond that the only thing I can think of is to try emilar EH800 bowtie horns which are a much heavier casting. But they still need to be damped.

Other than that, I would say, if you do not like the Nineteens, you may not be an Altec fan.

Also, you may be allowing yourself to be unnecessarily concerned by random comments by others about some speaker similar to yours.

I don´t have the foam plugs of the horns , is this essential ? I was thinking in covering the horns with some material any experience with veneer ?

[speakerdave]

I don´t have the foam plugs of the horns , is this essential ? I was thinking in covering the horns with some material any experience with veneer ?

I haven't actually heard the 19's with or without the foam plugs, but I cannot imagine it would not make a difference. Why not get some foam and see what it does to the sound? I believe that when listening on-axis it may not make much difference, but you will find it will reduce the midrange in the overall sound field and thus affect the tonality of the speakers.

If you want to try damping the horns, start with something that can easily be removed so that you do not decrease the value of your speakers. Modeling clay or duct seal would be my choices.

[speakerdave]

Also, about those bowties--I know some experimenters have tried them with Altec drivers and liked the combination, but I have not, and I do not know if it really works without changing the crossover. Take it as an off-hand remark made without caution.

[joaquin]

Thanks to all , ill start with the duct seal ...

[robertbartsch]

I bought a VOTT system with 416 woofs, 806 compression drivers and 811 horns in the early 1970s. A few years later, I added a 077 JBL tweeter and factory crossovers designed for the drivers.

The result was good but the Altec 2-way systems are very good from the factory.

I would say I never heard any ringing from the factory horns since they were located in a cab.

[speakerdave]

. . . . I would say I never heard any ringing from the factory horns since they were located in a cab.

That may be, but Altec did not change its way of finishing its horns for no reason. The 511E is a large format horn, and so would be expected to have to handle more power. I do not know if they ever issued aquaplased 1" 511b's and 811b's. Certainly when they are bolted to a bafffle or other mount they ring less, but they still have a resonance, which many people have discerned and found it worth their while to resolve.

in the end Altec switched to nonmetal composite mantaray horns.

[John]

[quote=speakerdave;254358
They also did not use welds at the center of the sectioning fins, but filled the space with aquaplas. These measures make a huge difference in the sound of the horns.[/quote]

It was not aquaplas but plain old silicone.:blah:

Also the foam inserts don't change the sound, but rather seems to impart better imaging.:)

[speakerdave]

Do you know if they changed the 1" horns?


It was not aquaplas but plain old silicone.:blah:

Also the foam inserts don't change the sound, but rather seems to impart better imaging.:)

[John]

Do you know if they changed the 1" horns?

I know they left the weld's out between the inner fins and did the silicone thing but that's about it.

My pair of 19's are from 1979 and have alnico motors with no silicone on the horns. And I have seen about half a dozen later pairs of ceramic motor 19's from the tail end of 19 producton and only one pair had the silicone on the horns. The owner was original to the pair and claimed that is how he bought them in the early 80's from the dealer. there was no outer signs of any damping on the horns.

[Zilch]

take this on.I have, and I'm ALL done with it now.

BMS 4550 + L-pad.... ;)

[rgwalker]

Also, about those bowties--I know some experimenters have tried them with Altec drivers and liked the combination, but I have not, and I do not know if it really works without changing the crossover. Take it as an off-hand remark made without caution.

I have 288C drivers mounted to EV HR60 horns running at 500 - 9K Hz and the effect is stunning with absolutely no flat spots, spikes, rattles or sympathetic resonance. The crossover is an upgraded Model 19 and aside from an added capacitor for a 9K tweeter the values are the same.

Bob Walker

[Russellc]

That may be, but Altec did not change its way of finishing its horns for no reason. The 511E is a large format horn, and so would be expected to have to handle more power. I do not know if they ever issued aquaplased 1" 511b's and 811b's. Certainly when they are bolted to a bafffle or other mount they ring less, but they still have a resonance, which many people have discerned and found it worth their while to resolve.

in the end Altec switched to nonmetal composite mantaray horns.

I dont know about Aqua plas, but I have had two distinctly different Altec 511B horns. One type, the "fins" are solid metal and way back in the throat there is a little piece that connects the top of the horn to the bottom. On the later horns, they look identical, but the fins arent solid, they are seperate and a "rubbery" stuff in between the two pieces. Also, the little piece back in the throat isnt there. In the first photo, you can see the bosses where the piece would have gone. If you see it in person, you can tell there has never been one, only the bosses. On the second pic, of this old beater 511B, you can see the center piece back in the throat.

Russellc

[Russellc]

I know they left the weld's out between the inner fins and did the silicone thing but that's about it.

My pair of 19's are from 1979 and have alnico motors with no silicone on the horns. And I have seen about half a dozen later pairs of ceramic motor 19's from the tail end of 19 producton and only one pair had the silicone on the horns. The owner was original to the pair and claimed that is how he bought them in the early 80's from the dealer. there was no outer signs of any damping on the horns.

They also deleted the metal piece way back in the throat that connects the inside top to the inside bottom. I have frequently heard of people knocking this piece out on the older horns.

Russellc

[vintage-chile]

Hi Guys ,

IMHO a JBL H series horn is far better sounding than any Altec horn , on a small music room. Altec is harsh and stressing for my ears , sorry folks .
I recommended Joaquin to do so , the only secret here is to make a good attachement to the H91 horn.
I have listened and done such combinations a lot of times. Had a lot of JBL and Altec gear to do so. Maybe someone remember my vintage auctions at Ebay.

Greetings from Chile