Really good turntables?

[midlife]

Doing a little research on turntables and I have come across two brands that do look nice. Rega and Music Hall, anyone knows if these two are real performers? thanks. :D...

[MikeBrewster77]

Both are very reputable companies; are there any particular models you have in mind? Both manufacturers make products that range from a few hundered dollars up to the $3-5K range.

A quick Google search will net you some reviews of current and past products such as this one: http://www.stereophile.com/turntables/708rega/index.html

Best,
- Mike

[midlife]

Just e-browsing at present. The Music Hall MMF-5.1 and the Rega P3-24 are both to my liking, but are high dollar tables for someone who lost their very well kept lp collection??

[UreiCollector]

We used to run the Mitsubishi LT-5V linear tracking turntable with B&O cartridge...the only issues we had were drive belt life, but a great sounding unit in my opinion.

[MikeBrewster77]

Just e-browsing at present. The Music Hall MMF-5.1 and the Rega P3-24 are both to my liking, but are high dollar tables for someone who lost their very well kept lp collection??

You raise a very good point, actually. I know some may disagree with me, but if most of your LP collection is going to be pulled together from second hand sources, I'd argue that it's very easy to quickly hit the point of diminishing returns by investing in a high-end table. You have to assume that at least 1/2 of what you're going to purchase will have been played on substandard equipment with extreme tracking forces, poorly maintained and/or cheap styli, etc. Purchasing an extremely detailed setup to play less-than-optimal source material may actually wind up being counterproductive.

So, if you plan on re-building your collection from vintage stores, etc., then I'd recommend sticking with a decent vintage deck and upgrading the cartridge (or minimally the stylus) as a good starting point. On the other hand, if you plan on purchasing new vinyl (180 gram new pressings / reissues, etc.) then getting a highly-capable new table is well worth the investment.

Just a consideration based on my specific experiences with vinyl...:blah:

[midlife]

Do you see the "classic records" coming back strongly with the 180grams reissues, and their availability being sustained? Or is it a niche market with little variety and supply?

[Ducatista47]

Another factor to consider is the availability of deep diving styli that cartridges like my Dynavector have. The shape is supposed to go deeper into the grove than any previously used cheaper stylus/cart did, playing virgin groves in worn records. Within reason, of course.

I agree that throwing cash at playing vinyl is a slippery slope. New vinyl is expensive and vintage disks were often a crapshoot with bad presses interspersed with good.

Really nice 180 gram reissues tend to be very limited editions. Once out of print, prices climb even further. Not a game for the faint of heart or the thin of wallet.

Tables, I use a P5 and it is very nice. I have not heard the P3 but it must be good. Regas work very well indeed and cost much less than the pretty boutique brands. The P9 is as good as it gets and I have paid less for cars, but the competition costs more like a house than a car.

Clark

[macaroonie]

Doing a little research on turntables and I have come across two brands that do look nice. Rega and Music Hall, anyone knows if these two are real performers? thanks. ...


Both makes you mention are essentially no more than planks of wood with the motor components and arm bolted on. They offer little if any isolation from the environment until ( music Hall ) the model 5.1 which decouples the motor on one board from the playing chassis.
Granted the Rega Arm has become something of an industry standard , IMHO it is a pity that Rega did not apply the same ingenuity and work some magic on the player.
For my money a nice s/h Thorens will stand you in good stead without breaking the bank , and those do have proper isolating systems designed in.
They do require some initial care in setting up though as do all of these types eg Linn Ariston Systemdek Oracle etc.
I do not know what kind of $$$$$ you have in mind but should be able to get a clean TD 160 or 165 up and running for $ 500 or less.
There are accessory arm mounting boards for all kinds of arms including the Rega. The weak spot for Thorens was always the arms , a complex topic that I will not expand on at the moment.
If you want to go a little more upscale you will not go wrong with a used Linn LP12. Kind of the D130 of the turntable world , pretty bombproof , good sound and will last more or less forever. Classic looks too. Based on the original Thorens floating chassis design.
In the continental US if you can find a clean Oracle Alexandria that would be you in heaven. No idea of the current going rate for those.

[jblnut]

I can add some hopefully helpful info here as I have been into vinyl since the mid 70's and never really stopped listening. I took a more serious angle about 4 years ago and now have a pretty nice setup (Yamaha PX2, Audio Technica OC9 MC, Pro-Ject Tube Box II MC Preamp, McIntosh C220 tube Preamp).

On the turntable front, I can offer a few suggestions that won't break the bank and will offer very good results. Remember you're buying used here and some of these are getting on 30 years old now. It's reasonable to expect a $150 service bill at some point for a good lube/belts if you are not going to do the maint yourself.

AR - the "XD" from the 80's is a very, very good turntable for the money. It's similar to the LP12 in concept. Expect to pay $200-300.

Harman Kardon - another decent LP12 clone is the T60/T65. Should be $200 or under.

Yamaha - they made several excellent tables. The linear PX2 and PX3 are unbelievable values. Parts are scarce but the belts are still available and this is all you will likely need. If the optical sensors go you can still use the table manually (as I have been doing for 3 years now). The PF800 is another excellent but more conventional table. The PX's are $300-500 and the PF $400-600.

Linn LP12 - the "standard" high-end table. Starts in the $600 range if you're lucky and goes up from here as the mods get applied.

Now, on the subject of records I can say with 100% certainty there are *plenty* of good records out there. I have been buying both new records from a local store as well as lots (groups) of records on ebay. I would say that only about 10% of the 300 or so records I've bought on ebay in the past year (avg $1/record) are truly junk. Most sellers toss out the garbage and only sell what it worth saving. Others have pointed out that if you invest in a really good cartridge, it will have a smaller stylus which gets "deeper" in the grooves than the cheap ones which means you are getting down past the damage and into the "fresh" part of the groove. Once you decide on a table, head over to needledoctor.com and be amazed at the selection of brand new cartridges that are available.

New 180 gram records are becoming more numerous by the day and average about $20. Search "180 lp" on ebay or head to musicdirect.com. This isn't a passing fad - they are coming back strong.

Bottom line advice:

1) Getting a really good table is arguably more imporant than the cartridge. A good table will allow any cartridge to perform at its best. A mediocre table will never allow you to hear what even a mid-line cartridge can do. Good suspension/isolation is critical if you want to listen loud.

2) Linear tables offer superior tracking, especially on inner grooves. Their shorter arms are lower mass and track warped records better too. Downside is old and potentially unreliable mechanisms.

3) There are plenty of brand new options like Rega and MusicHall. Be aware though that you won't get a decent suspension until you get well into the range.

I could do another whole discussion on cartridges (MM vs MC ) and preamps, but let's get the table settled first and we can go from there.

jblnut

[midlife]

All interesting observations and comments, thanks. Do all MC cartriages require a phono preamp before the system preamp? I have a Crown Straight Line Two (w/o owners manual) and it seems to have screwdriver adjusted pots at the phono inputs?? For now I am leaning towards the Music Hall MMF-5.1, decent table and arm? isolation and suspension? Would this table respond well to either magnetic or coil type cartriages? I have favored vinyl as a source at a time when my cd deck could not compete with my turntable sonically. That being said it wasn't probably a fair match up due to my cd deck being a few rungs down the food chain when compared to the turntable. Do todays cd decks rival top flight turntables? thanks for your replies ;) And for the thoughtful vintage tt recommendations, they no doubt, once brought up to specs would be good performers.

[macaroonie]

As I mentioned and as you can see from the pic , the top plate of the plinth is isolated from the bottom by sorbothane rubber bushes however the lid seems to be mounted to the top plate and since the lid is a very distinct resonator it will transmit albeit small resonances directly to the arm.
The Rega suffers from this dreadfully.
I checked the price of these and it seems to be almost $1000. You can do much better.
PS I have worked at one time or another for Linn , Ariston , Source.
I did a similar budget design for Ariston that had the motor and the lid plus the rubbery feet on the top plate but the audio components were all mounted
on the lower plate ie bearing and platter , arm plate / arm , and that whole assembly was isolated by a very lossy rubber compound.
It was under £200 at the time

[MikeBrewster77]

Do todays cd decks rival top flight turntables?

Awwww, c'mon - you don't really want to start that war here do you? Digital vs. analog? You could fill up an entire forum with what's been written on that subject alone. :blah:

FWIW, my short answer is without a doubt. The problem is that many "audiophiles" still to this day seem all too happy to shell out insane cash on an exotic looking, TOTL turntable, but are strangely unwilling to spend more than a few hundred bucks on a CD player. It's probably a result of the initial marketing buzz around digital that indicated that the most entry level CD player would outshine your turntable (absolutely not true, of course) that got people thinking that the cheapest CD player would suffice, and no benefit could be yielded from a higher quality component (also absolutely not true.)

I'm still a fan of vinyl, and there are those occasions when everything comes together absolutely perfectly and the result is purely musical, but IMHO well-done digital can outshine it far more often than not. In short, if I were re-building a system and music collection from scratch (as I understand you are) I'd put far more focus and cash on obtaining the best CD player I could, and an analog setup would honestly be a secondary consideration.

Of course, that's just my opinion...:flamed:

[SEAWOLF97]

They offer little if any isolation from the environment until ( music Hall ) the model 5.1 which decouples the motor on one board from the playing chassis.
For my money a nice s/h Thorens will stand you in good stead without breaking the bank , and those do have proper isolating systems designed in.
They do require some initial care in setting up though as do all of these types eg Linn Ariston Systemdek Oracle etc.
I do not know what kind of $$$$$ you have in mind but should be able to get a clean TD 160 or 165 up and running for $ 500 or less..

Earlier in this thread I had recommended the Thorens TD -160/5 , but later deleted as it seemed to be falling on deaf ears...
Mac is prolly the most TT experienced user here and his recommendations usually carry a lot of weight with me..

The Pioneer Pl-530 that I bought (despite Macs concerns) has the double suspended system for isolation and is truly a bargain if you are looking for an automatic ....are you looking for manual or auto ? dont recall reading which you want or even BD vs. DD ?

the PL-530

Double float system: The PL-530 Has a standard wood press board plinth base . And a steel sub- chassis. The tone arm connects to the subchassis. The subchassis is suspended from the plinth, along with the tone arm. All vibrations are absorbed twice, before they have a chance to spoil the record's tonal quality.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=206909&postcount=87

[midlife]

[quote=SEAWOLF97;254401]Earlier in this thread I had recommended the Thorens TD -160/5 , but later deleted as it seemed to be falling on deaf ears...
Seawolf, All the recommendations are useful and I do appreciate them all. Since I cannot afford to buy a turntable at this time, they are all in play. Just trying to get some info from those who are knowledgeable and don't mind sharing. I would prefer a manual arm first, semi second, etc. Don't know alot about Thorens, so I'll be doing a bit of research, to become more familiar. :D

[SEAWOLF97]

Complete Empire 698 Turntable



Turntable is in excellent condition. It was a part of an estate sale of a friend of mine. Beautiful hardwood and glass case and cover. I think its walnut.
It was a working turntable when boxed up. I only removed it from the box to clean it and photograph it. I would keep it but I am not an audio buff, and my
DVD's work fine to my undiscerning ear. I do believe from my research that this is a very desirable turntable to collectors and those who dig vinyl sound.
I just don't hear that well anymore.

not mine , but mebbe ;) (depending on price)

[macaroonie]

Now Tom that is a nice vintage piece !! Put a flat mat on there and a general service and you have a true keeper. I've had a few of those through my hands in the past and they are BUILT to last..

[LowPhreak]

Other recommendations are well-noted, but I'd recommend any of the VPI HW-19 iterations (Mark I, II, III, or IV). Great isolation (with certain mods), very good speed stability, very low groove noise, ability to mount almost any tonearm, and excellent sound for anywhere near their price ranges. No longer in production but I'm sure they can be found on the used market, and well worth the search.

I had an HW-19 Mk III that I foolishly sold some years ago, with a Well Tempered Classic arm. I found the isolation to be even better by replacing the stock springs under the plinth with some large Sorbothane pucks, and the plinth was of course much less bouncy. I could play a pair of Nautilus 803's and REL Stentor III sub at pretty much full volume, AND had a large drum kit in the room for practice, all without disturbing the turntable/tonearm. That's some isolation!

[duaneage]

I've had a Denon DP-37F for over 20 years and I am happy with it; The dynamic servo tracer tonearm uses electro magnets instead of gravity to set the tonearm force. It adjusts the tracking force on less than perfectly flat records so well you can't really hear any flutter.

I have a Shure V15 type V xmr cartridge which is pretty accurate and tracks excellent.

Some might scuff at this setup but for the vast majority of vinyl storebought records I think it's good enough.

[Ducatista47]

Both makes you mention are essentially no more than planks of wood with the motor components and arm bolted on. They offer little if any isolation from the environment until ( music Hall ) the model 5.1 which decouples the motor on one board from the playing chassis.
Granted the Rega Arm has become something of an industry standard , IMHO it is a pity that Rega did not apply the same ingenuity and work some magic on the player.


As I mentioned and as you can see from the pic , the top plate of the plinth is isolated from the bottom by sorbothane rubber bushes however the lid seems to be mounted to the top plate and since the lid is a very distinct resonator it will transmit albeit small resonances directly to the arm.
The Rega suffers from this dreadfully.Your advice is learned and sound, but I have to say I have never been plagued by the problem. Perhaps it is where I live, the structure and the location.

But I am beginning to think that it is the acoustic watts I am (not) projecting into the environment. How freaking loud does the average forum member play his/her rig?

I do love my big JBL speakers, all of them. I prize them for their good dynamics, low distortion, versatility and lack of weak low bass reproduction found nearly everywhere else. Having been raised in the 1950's, I still consider small speakers a poor compromise. More a statement of current fashion than sound engineering. But the conclusion becomes inescapable that JBL's ability to handle big power and play very loudly while remaining relatively low in distortion accounts for most of the love they find on the forums. The endless discussion of big power instead of smaller, cleaner power. The almost universal love of at least occasional blasts at high spl and the love of chest thumping bass. Even the reasonably inclined Widget confesses enjoying forrays way past 100dB periodically. At which point, with his rig, turntable isolation would loom large.

There is not one single thing wrong with this approach, but it holds no attraction for me as it requires much larger, less transparent and far more costly systems after the source components. And all for the small percentage of the time big spl is produced. (You can take my word for it that such systems do not do the clean low power thing nearly as well as systems designed to do so. They are not as high fidelity, but I understand your skepticism as few have heard such systems, the expensive high end customers included. They seldom get their money's worth.) Every time I have been in the room during such high spl episodes, it did not make the music sound any better. The enhancements the owner of the rig was experiencing were not musical, but cultural and physical.

Since my personal enjoyment of music is primarily spiritual, I guess I don't have anything useful to contribute to discussions like these and should keep my mouth shut. I'll try to limit myself to topics that do not draw out my ignorance of systems designed primarily for high spl reproduction. Forgive me for thinking that turntable shopping was something I could help with. I imagine many of you are really tired of me posting about low power electronics, spiritual listening, headphones and the like. Wrong website, and you have my apologies.

Clark

[midlife]

I have gotten a Rega 3. It has "bean bag" iso feet. It has a polymar platter, Cardas tone arm wiring and I am installing an Ortofon 2M Blue. I look forward to hearing some lps on this deck, hope it performs well. And about the earlier mentioned occasional high volume pass, I am sometimes caught red faced and red handed.

[30ips]

The now long in the tooth Technics SL1200 had a multi-million dollar engineering and development budget that only a major international corporation (Matsushita) could afford. The results speak for themselves. Have KAB in NJ tweak up a new black one for you. Do a blind bake-off with anything except a real high end table. Listen objectively - you will be surprised. A great value.

[raffy1218]

i would treat a god rig like an investment once your committed to analog, go for it, it like the pace and rhythm of idler, i have 3, a 401, 301 garrard then my 930st emt. Nice upbate lively sound with no "dead spots", built like tanks they only appreciate in value every year just like certain jbls here. Once I switched to idler it was all about the music and what i was missing.:bouncy:

[raffy1218]

apologies, last line should read, and NOT what i was missing:D

[midlife]

The now long in the tooth Technics SL1200 had a multi-million dollar engineering and development budget that only a major international corporation (Matsushita) could afford. The results speak for themselves. Have KAB in NJ tweak up a new black one for you. Do a blind bake-off with anything except a real high end table. Listen objectively - you will be surprised. A great value.
I had a Technics SL1100 (forerunner of the 1200) and I agree, well made, attractive, and excellent performance.

[jblsound]

I'm still using my '79 Yamaha direct drive TT, with a Shure cartridge.
Although I'd like to try out the new Marantz 15S1, made by Clearaudio. The price is $1599, I think, but that includes an $800 clearaudio cartridge.