Altec Lansing Model 19 vs. JBL L300 Summit

[George Roland]

I would be interested to know from those who have experience listening to both of these fine speakers what their sonic differences are. I assume both are very dynamic, wide-ranging and efficient. I am especially interested in sonic detail, smoothness and lack of harshness and honk that sometimes accompanies horn speakers.

Thanks,

George Roland

[Tom Brennan]

IMO the 19 has a more dynamic sound and better clarity. To me the 300 sounds constricted and closed in in comparison. I also think the 19 has cleaner bass.

About 4 years ago I had the chance to buy a pair of pristine L-300s for $800 from a pal and I took a pass, I didn't want them.

[John]

Altec 19 = movie threatre sound in your home.
JBL L300 = recording studio sound in your home.

Should have both systems in your crib.;) IMO.

:bouncy:

[JBLRaiser]

IMO the 19 has a more dynamic sound and better clarity. To me the 300 sounds constricted and closed in in comparison. I also think the 19 has cleaner bass.

About 4 years ago I had the chance to buy a pair of pristine L-300s for $800 from a pal and I took a pass, I didn't want them.


and see if they are still available?:bouncy::applaud::deal::cheers:. I could go higher.:D

[George Roland]

IMO the 19 has a more dynamic sound and better clarity. To me the 300 sounds constricted and closed in in comparison. I also think the 19 has cleaner bass.

About 4 years ago I had the chance to buy a pair of pristine L-300s for $800 from a pal and I took a pass, I didn't want them.

Thanks, Tom. This is very helpful. There have been several pairs of L300s for sale online recently, but the sellers all want around $3,500-3,600.00 for them. That seems very high to me, and no one seems to be bidding on them at those prices. Model 19s in real good shape are selling for half that or less. Curious.

Hope you're enjoying those MLs. Nice looking setup!

Best,

George

[George Roland]

Altec 19 = movie threatre sound in your home.
JBL L300 = recording studio sound in your home.

Should have both systems in your crib.;) IMO.

:bouncy:

Hi John,

Would you elaborate a bit on this characterization? When you say "movie theater" or "recording studio," sound what specific sonic qualities does that translate into in a home audio system?

Thanks for your reply,

George

[Ducatista47]

You could not easily come up with two designs that sound more different from each other, but both are over hyped.

The Model 19 is very, very picky about amplification. To those listeners like me, who get listener fatigue easily from harsh mids & highs, only a few particular tube amps will do.

Neither is the pinnacle of a line of development. The 19's, while the largest of their line, are still much downsized from the theater speakers that endeared the design to listeners. Are they too small to deliver the real experience? Probably.

The 300's are an early design in a line of large studio monitors, modified slightly for projection of sound to a seated listener instead of soffet mounting, and cosmetically "enhanced" for home use. They are basically 4333's (the studio "Professional" model). That line went on to greater things but the consumer offering, the 300, never evolved. All of its shortcomings remain. It was not the "Summit" for long.

My personal opinion, not a popular one, is that 300's are way overpriced today (like Paragons) for the quality of sound they offer; and the Nineteens have a following largely with those who either have not heard it done better or don't know the difference, since most are being driven by amps that make them sound incredibly harsh and owners still love the what they hear.

They are both nice designs but are more handsome than great sounding. Most people who like one do not like the other at all, and there are plenty of both types of owners. And all the owners think their choice sounds fabulous, so there are forces more cultural than sonic at work here. Without listening to both, you might not know what type of listener you are. Both are good speakers but not great. The Nineteens are less costly but do not have nearly as much engineering in them. I would buy neither, so I am no help!

Clark

[Tom Brennan]

Hope you're enjoying those MLs. Nice looking setup!

Best,

George


The other day a fella I met at Audio Karma came over, when he asked my wife which she liked better, the MLs or the 19s we used to own she immediately answered "The 19s!". :)

But the MLs are suitable for high-rise living, while not as robust and dynamic as the 19s they do have superb clarity; superb clarity goes a long way. And not a hint of harshness, what I call "earwire". Big image too, depending on the recording the horizontal image "source" can extend far past the speakers.

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh92/Irishtom29/008.jpg

[Mr. Widget]

I would be interested to know from those who have experience listening to both of these fine speakers what their sonic differences are.While I do not think Tom's description is entirely off base, another way of stating the comparison would be, the L300s have actual deep bass that is lacking in the Model 19, and a significantly extended top end over the Model 19... and while Tom and many other fan's of the Model 19 hear the midrange as clear, I think those who do not favor it's sound hear the mids as a bit shouty and in your face.

I have heard both speakers sound compelling and god awful, electronics, room, room placement, and source material can all have a huge effect on both of these speakers.


Widget

[spkrman57]

L300 - More robust sounding

M19 - More efficient with more dynamics, lacks bottom end in comparison!

Regards, Ron

[robertbartsch]

Altec Model 19 = much higher sensativity and dynamic range.

L300 = some what flatter frequency response and a tad more extended bass


The Altecs will trully get LOUD with a 75 WPC amplifier; JBLs do not get loud - even with 200 or more WPC.

I would use only SS amps with both.

For pure listening pleasure, I prefer the Altec.

Obviously, this cite is really a JBL cite and not an Altec one - so I would expect many here to moan and complain about Altec and shower great praise on the L300.

[George Roland]

To those listeners like me, who get listener fatigue easily from harsh mids & highs, only a few particular tube amps will do.
The 300's are basically 4333's (the studio "Professional" model). That line went on to greater things but the consumer offering, the 300, never evolved. All of its shortcomings remain.Clark

Thanks for this information. I am using Audio Research VT 100s with my Model 19s and they seem pretty smooth. Are there smoother tube power amps you'd recommend?

To what did the L300s evolve? Were their both studio monitors and "domesticated" speakers that bettered them, and what models might those be?

Thanks for your response,

George

[Fred Sanford]

The Altecs will trully get LOUD with a 75 WPC amplifier; JBLs do not get loud - even with 200 or more WPC.


JBL L300s/4333s "do not get loud"? Are you serious? :blink:

je

[Tom Brennan]

"Neither is the pinnacle of a line of development. The 19's, while the largest of their line, are still much downsized from the theater speakers that endeared the design to listeners. Are they too small to deliver the real experience? Probably." quote from Ducatista


Well Ducatista I think the 19s are pretty much the pinnacle of Altec's line of development. There was a later monitor with a seperate tweeter and a lens-horn on the midrange but as far as I know the speaker was never released as a serious product.

19s deliver the theater experience just fine in a home. I had various A5s, A7s, A7-500s (and some JBL theater speakers too) and in a home setting the 19s do the job fine and pass the Ben Hur test with flying colors. Note that the 19 uses the same woofer, compression driver and horn as the A7, the A7 differs mainly in being horn loaded between about 150Hz and the crossover and in being several db more sensitive, no big deal. And the A7 doesn't go as deep.

[demon]

hello!

interesting thread, i never thought much about the altec 19, but now im interested (a little).

To what did the L300s evolve? Were their both studio monitors and "domesticated" speakers that bettered them, and what models might those be?
i think that the studio four-ways ala 4345 (http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/specs/pro-speakers/1981-4345.htm) where meant here, and that on the other side the home two-ways like the k2 9500+7500 (http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/specs/home-speakers/1990-k2-s9500.htm) are "probably" better too. but the four-ways are bigger than the L3oo/4333, so no fair match. maybe the 4430 (http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/specs/pro-speakers/1984-4430-35.htm) is a closer related speaker to them.
i wont compare any of this speakers here, since i never really heard any (but i would sure like to, very much).

cheers,
mikey

[JBLRaiser]

Thanks for this information. I am using Audio Research VT 100s with my Model 19s and they seem pretty smooth. Are there smoother tube power amps you'd recommend?

To what did the L300s evolve? Were their both studio monitors and "domesticated" speakers that bettered them, and what models might those be?

Thanks for your response,

George

sound of these speakers forever. Personally, I would be satisfied with either, just on the recommendation of some of our members. As for my 19's, I have disconnected the woofers from the crossover and connected a Dynaco ST400 amp directly to my 416 woofers, connected a Dynaco ST70 to the horns through the crossovers to utilize the EQ and both amps are run through a Chinese made 6SN7 tube based preamp with only a volume control. Works for me. Eventually, when my very busy audio guru friend(40 years working with every electronic known to man) gets to it, I will try two EV electronic crossovers with EQ. The setup was recommended by him.

[Sootshe]

I haven't heard the JBL's but I do have a set of 19's. The 19's were designed to be the home version of the A7 VOTT ( same components) & as such have a more effective low frequency performance. I had A7's & the 19's are much better suited for home use. They extend quite well to 30 Hz & are not terribly fussy about room placement. The A7's, I believe, need a very large room to get the best from them & then the bottom end is still lacking.I run mine with an Audio Research D240 (120 watts RMS) & a passive preamp. There is never a hint of harshness & the dynamice range is awesome. They do not have any of the sometimes typical horn sound that non horn advocates expect. I also have a set of Klipsch La Scala 2's & the 19's are way ahead of them for my listening tastes. As far as not having much engineering in them......all this means little when you can achieve the sound you want to hear.
My advice to people asking opinions about 2 different speakers so that they may make a decision is.....DON"T. You need to hear them for yourself as one persons interpretation of boomy, harsh, honky, may not be anothers.
Me....I like live sound, especially rock & jazz rock fusion. The 19's, for me, sound like the band is in the room. They produce the most realistic sound that I have heard. I think the tonal texture is awesome & for my ears they are just the perfect speaker.

[MyLittleViking]

WOW... was interested to read this thread enough to comment... These are both fantastic sounding speakers, and no one interested in audio should go without at least auditioning both of these speakers. It'll at least give you an idea of what your listening preferences are...

While the Altec 19's are modeled off the A7 VOTT's, they were given comepensation via the crossover to flatten their frequency response considerably. While they will not go as high or low as the L300/4333, they give a very unique and pleasant sounding presentation (with the right amp).. Since their sensitiveity is high enough a "golden oldie" tube amp like a Fisher, HH Scott, or EICO, will really make these speakers sing... although a great amp is a great amp and they will sound good with high powered solid state as well.

PROS: They have a wider dispersion pattern making them more suited for Home Theater. They have a better sense of realism to the midrange... CONS: Less "clean" bass when compared to the L300/4333 and they will not go nearly as high.. Will distort when played too loud..

The L300's are in fact a home version of the 4333 and are basically studio monitors... They use compression drivers and horns for the mids and a compression tweeter for the highs the coveted 077. They do indeed sound like studio monitors.

PROS: Have tighter cleaner bass, a flatter response, and much better highs.. Will play VERY LOUD without distorting...
CONS: Have a narrower dispersion pattern, better suited for studio use. Will not accept low powered tube amps as easily as the Altec 19's, need high powered and expensive Solid State amps to perform their best.

I agree with everyone else, try both, see which one you like...

[Ducatista47]

robertbartsch
Obviously, this cite is really a JBL cite and not an Altec one - so I would expect many here to moan and complain about Altec and shower great praise on the L300.I thought I was pretty even handed, especially for a 4333 owner.


Thanks for this information. I am using Audio Research VT 100s with my Model 19s and they seem pretty smooth. Are there smoother tube power amps you'd recommend?

To what did the L300s evolve? Were their both studio monitors and "domesticated" speakers that bettered them, and what models might those be?

The Dynaco ST35's are very good, and I second the ST70 as a good second choice. A vintage Scott 8 watter was harsh, so I can discern no rhyme or reason to all this. Just have to try things, I guess. Since the amp you are using sounds good, no need to look further.

The evolution went to the 4333A, I think, all the way to the 4345 or the 4355, depending on who you talk to. To all big four way blue face monitors, generically speaking. I don't see a direct connection with the totally different 44xx series, or the more modern K2, Array and DD consumer speakers. What they do all have in common is the top of the line honors. This was a very long time ago and I am sure the newer consumer speakers I mentioned would all blow away the best of these ancient beasts. But they still sound very good and they are almost affordable.


"Neither is the pinnacle of a line of development. The 19's, while the largest of their line, are still much downsized from the theater speakers that endeared the design to listeners. Are they too small to deliver the real experience? Probably." quote from Ducatista


Well Ducatista I think the 19s are pretty much the pinnacle of Altec's line of development. There was a later monitor with a seperate tweeter and a lens-horn on the midrange but as far as I know the speaker was never released as a serious product.

19s deliver the theater experience just fine in a home. I had various A5s, A7s, A7-500s (and some JBL theater speakers too) and in a home setting the 19s do the job fine and pass the Ben Hur test with flying colors. Note that the 19 uses the same woofer, compression driver and horn as the A7, the A7 differs mainly in being horn loaded between about 150Hz and the crossover and in being several db more sensitive, no big deal. And the A7 doesn't go as deep.
If they pass the Ben Hur test, I stand corrected. I do wish all speakers were that efficient. I wonder what Cogent's dB/watt/m are? I personally don't mess with designs under 97dB anymore. Smaller amps sound better.

Clark

[mike]

The 19 is unique in my opinion in that it combines pretty high efficiency with a pretty extended low end. I would agree that they are one of those speakers that require good amplification.

Mike

[4313B]

My advice to people asking opinions about 2 different speakers so that they may make a decision is.....DON"T. You need to hear them for yourself as one persons interpretation of boomy, harsh, honky, may not be anothers.:yes:

I always cringe when I see thread titles like this one.

[BMWCCA]

So George,

Since you've been a Model 19 owner now for just over two months, what do you think of them?

Does the question arise because you're unhappy and shopping for JBLs, trying to sell the Altecs, or both? Or just curious. I'm curious to hear your opinion.

:dont-know

[Tom Brennan]

:yes:

I always cringe when I see thread titles like this one.


Yet the discussion has been quite civil and a credit to the people who use this forum.

[JBLRaiser]

Yet the discussion has been quite civil and a credit to the people who use this forum.

Administrators were at DEFCON 3 :bomb:

[George Roland]

So George,

Since you've been a Model 19 owner now for just over two months, what do you think of them?

Does the question arise because you're unhappy and shopping for JBLs, trying to sell the Altecs, or both? Or just curious. I'm curious to hear your opinion.

:dont-know

I think my lot in life as an audiophile is forever looking to try new (to me) speakers. So the questions arise because of a desire to see if I can do better. No speaker I have ever listened to is perfect, alas! Right now, I have a pair of Quad ESL-63s and the Altec Lansing Model 19s. I am comparing them and still looking for others to try. Another speaker I would really like to hear (that I could actually afford) is a pair of B&W 801 Matrix II or IIIs. So you get the idea--I am never satisfied.

So far, I am very impressed with the Model 19s. They have the "big sound" one would expect with a well designed speaker of this size and type. So listening to things like Stravinksky's "Rite of Spring" or Mahler's "Symphony No. 2" over them is an awe-inspiring experience. They can just pump out gobs of clean, complex orchestral music all day long.

Second, they are amazingly detailed. I am able to hear down into the mix on recordings and distinguish instruments that other speakers tend to blend together. For example a flute playing the same note as violins, that other speakers would tend to blend into just a high sound, are clearly distinguished. Also, things like, say, an oboe, clarinet and flute playing close harmonies and pitches are more clearly discerned one from the other.

Another thing I like about them is that, unlike less efficient speakers, they play very cleanly at low volume. They do not need to be played loudly for them to "come alive" as is the case with some speakers. At very low volume, they are very detailed.

I guess my only real reservation is that on some recordings--operatic vocals in particular--they can be a little hard. This has been a constant bugbear for me with every horn speaker I have ever heard. I had two different pairs of Klipsches (Cornwalls and K-Horns) and I found them simply painful to listen to on this kind of music. The Model 19s are far smoother and less troublesome in this regard, but that little edge is still sometimes apparent.

The Quad ESL-63s, of course, have little deep bass and are far less dynamic than the Model 19s. I do not listen at ear-bleed levels, so they play louder than I need them to without distortion, but their dynamics are more reserved--smaller in scale I would say--the opposite of the "big sound." BUT, they are incredibly smooth. I never find myself wincing or cringing at anything they produce. No listener fatigue with those guys! On strings and vocals they have a gentleness and naturalness that is addictive. I am not certain they are less detailed than the 19s, but they have a more mid-hall perspective, a bit more blended together smoothness that is just different.

I think of an analogy with photography. The old Kodachrome 35mm film was slightly warm and a bit soft compared to contemporary Fujichrome. With the latter, the image seems intensified in color and sharper than reality. The image is exciting, "bumped up" in edges and contrast, more saturated in color--it's exciting, but is it real? Hmmm. The Altecs are more like the Fujichrome, the Quads are like the Kodachrome. The Altecs may produce more the sound that one might hear from the front row or even the podium compared to the Quad's more mid-hall perspective.

This is probably more verbiage than you need or want this on this topic. Clearly I am not yet fully settled in my opinion, but these are my current observations. Unfortunately, I feel like I am kind of caught in the middle. The very qualities I like about the Model 19s--clarity and detail--are those that, on operatic recordings, produce the hardness that I dislike. I can listen to the Quads all day long, but the intense detail (o,r more negatively, the "edge") is not there. I am perfectly willing to accept the proposition that what is annoying me is poor recordings. Operatic voices are very difficult to record naturally, as is testified to by the fact that there are very few really great-sounding operatic recordings! (For those of you who may be curious, the Bernstein "Carmen" LP by DG is one such recording.) But I guess I am loathe to give up the pleasures of listening to music I love because the speakers that reproduce them accurately sometimes make them hard to take pleasure in. Maybe that is why Jesse Norman owns Quads! I don't see why I should have to give up either quality!

Fortunately my wife, who just keeps saying, "You're crazy" is willing to tolerate these two systems in our living room, so I am not being pressured to choose between them. The listening goes on.

George

[robertbartsch]

Wow, all that symphony stuff would hurt my ears but its OK with me that you like it.

Anyway, you probaby will find that folks who like the ALtecs cherish the super high sensativity and dynamic range. Nothing else comes close IMO. I found them very easy to listen to.

[mike]

I think your comparison of the model 19's to an audiophile speaker like the Quad is interesting. I tend to think that even with their flaws and compromises some of the older speakers offer a lot more than nostalgia and looks.

Mike

[George Roland]

I think your comparison of the model 19's to an audiophile speaker like the Quad is interesting. I tend to think that even with their flaws and compromises some of the older speakers offer a lot more than nostalgia and looks.

Mike
I agree! I have owned some reasonably well-regarded newer speakers and these I presently have, 20-30 years old, provide a lot of satisfying musical performance for the money. And by buying used on e-Bay or Audiogon, if I decide to sell the equipment I can get most or all of my money back. $1,000-2,000 will buy you a lot more speaker in a used one than in a new one. New Quads are what $9,000-12,000? Guys who repair them regularly say they are essentially the same speakers as the ESL -63s that go for around $1,500. Sounds good to me!

Best,

George

[beathunters]

feels like diggin' back an old crate... i'm a happy model 19 owner for a year and i agree with most of the reading here. i've been enjoying them as the best speakers i had but it's the first 15"s i ever tried. i listened to great VOT with vitavox horns but it was another level of x-overs and else. i'm basically a plug'n' play guy and the whole high efficiency system experiments and tunings are not for me.
my listening room is large enough, about 70 square meters - with no neighbors issue - so i can really crank the 19 to "almost" live sound level if i want. i mean live jazz, not rock.
i feel they need some volume to really sound great. i'm using either old english EL84 PP heathkit mono amps or DIY 12w chip amp with awesome results.
big as they are, they unfortunately have to stand back against the rear walls- which isn't that bad - and corners, which i know could be better... i tried wheels to place them more accurately but what i somehow gained in rear scene and space was lost in some kind of artificial feeling, thanks to the wheels and upper stands.
but audiolife is a world of best compromise and the rear/corners placement is actually very satisfying for everyday family life.

then i typed model 19 vs. jbl 4333 because i'm quite intrigued by these big blue babies. i haven't had the chance to listen to 43XXX series yet; only a modified 4412 (modded with 2405 tweeter) that litterally swept me off my feet/chair, whatever. the owner runs an incredible 5-amps high efficiency system with sato pavillons, goto tweeters, etc that is the best natural set-up i ever heard.
then we tried the 4412 just for fun. i dare say i had to ask him if he didn't forget to turn some amps off from the big system... if the big one was 100% of the music, the 4412s offered 80%... incredible!
these speakers will be home in a few weeks for an audio test vs. the 19 and my other speakers, old 1960 tannoy canterbury corners but it sure raised serious interrogations about good JBL stuff...