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Audionutz
05-29-2009, 03:49 PM
Firstly, my appreciation for making such a great resource available and ensuring continued interest and passion for the marque :applaud:

Having recently become the custodian of a pair of pristine JBL 4350's, I am now curious to learn more. Currently, they are running a Crown D150 for the bass, through a JBL 5234A Crossover set at 250. Mid/Highs are taken care of by a pair of Marantz MA-24 pure Class A 30 watt monoblocks running full range with bypassing the active crossover. I modded these to drop the gain slightly, allowing them to match the impedance of my passive Lightspeed Attenuator/Preamp. This has given me excellent balance and a degree of control over the bass via the Crown input gain adjustments.

The speakers are sititng in their normal horizontal position at present. What are the benefits, if any, of sitting them upright to raise the tweeters ?

Is it worth going into them to upgrade wiring and connections or possibly the passive crossovers ?

Any other suggestions are welcome (apart from selling them :D)

It is not that I am unhappy with the performance and if the consnsus is to "just leave them alone", I will be more than satisfied. However, I am curious as to what other owners out there have experienced with these awesome speakers .....

jerry_rig
05-30-2009, 08:41 AM
First, congratulations on the new speakers. I'm sure there are a few things you could do to bring out the best in them. For one thing, I'd try to find a better power amp for the bass section. I owned a D-150 for years -- bought it new in the early 1970s. It is easily out-gunned by larger and more modern designs. Without spending a fortune, you could find a used Hafler or something comparable (I find the Krell amps work VERY well for bass). You will be amazed at the difference. Enjoy!

Best,

Jerry

BMWCCA
05-30-2009, 09:30 AM
Agreed that maybe you could use some more power but I won't fault your brand choice. The LF section of your system is rated as around 200wpc at 4-ohm but general consensus is to double that for headroom. Since your LF is 4-ohm, a Crown DC300A-II or PS-400 should work well for you and they're not expensive, many have had a gentle studio life, and you already know they will play for the long-haul. Don't know what series your D150 is but it should make a nice amp for your top end which, with a 4" voice-coil 12" mid-range needs a bit of power, too. JBL's recommendation is likely a max of 100wpc so your D150 is a bit under even before you consider the extra headroom. I'm using a DC300A-II for the bottom of my 4345s and D150A-II for the HF section. Even with the input attenuators at half, I'm getting live-sound SPL in my living room at about half-volume on the pre-amp, and it sounds great.

Other than the tweeter dispersion, do you have any complaints with the 4350 performance as they're being used right now? I can't help you with tweeter position other than to say on my 4345s the 2405 sits about 39" off the floor and seems to work just fine when I'm seated on the couch about nine-feet away. Not sure how much height you can gain by turning yours 90, and then you've got the problem with the base/plinth and your glass tops to contend with. I'd try some heavy lumber underneath them first to see if it gets you the difference you're looking for. Maybe 6" or so to start, if you can get some help lifting those suckers. Kenji uses a lot of these on his 43XX repro-refurbs:

http://www.jbl43.net/img/4343asf-19-2s.jpg

Good luck. I'll bet they sound superb right now!

Ducatista47
05-30-2009, 11:35 AM
Nice speakers, congratulations!

You sound like you know what you are doing. The reason 4350's exist is to present undistorted music loudly. Their level of finesse is a bit lower than some other JBL offerings, but not by much. If you do intend to blast them, even if only once in a while, and continue to use solid state amps, follow the JBL power recommendations religiously.

If subtlety and detail are your thing, your crossover caps are getting too old to work as intended. A quick search here will yield some catfights about whether to upgrade the capacators or junk the crossover, take out a loan and go charge coupled. Either would be a noticeable improvement.

Clark

Audionutz
05-30-2009, 07:37 PM
My thanks to Clarke, Jerry and others. All points raised are of interest certainly. I think innitially, raising them will be the first thing to try - will have to have a good breakfast that day :bouncy: !

The majority of advice with these seems to be that digital crossovers are the way to go ? Following Ian McKenzie's posts on the subject, it appears thats's where most folk eventually arrive, after lots of passive experimentation along the way.

I would definitely prefer to leave them in as original condition as possible, for a few years at least. Any mods would have to be fully reversible.

Amplification is definitely on the list and I have some larger power amps available that I can try out in the next few months. Whats there at present does not "feel" underpowered, but then I rarely give them full rein. The room is approx 6.4m x 4.4m with a standard 2.4m ceiling. It is somewhat bright and resonant, so some room treatment may be in order later.

One thing quite apparent, is that these speakers do not "excite" the room as much as other large floorstanders have previously ? Maybe due to the increased footprint and weight distribution. I also supect the sheer efficiency of the bass has something to do with it - and I thought I knew what good bass was, Ha ! ;)

About the only criticism I can level so far is that the mids lacks some "palpability" and a bit of definition in regards to instrument and vocal placement. As one friend remarked though, this is more an observation of "Glass half full" than "Glass half empty", if that makes sense ?

Considering how much these 40 year old speakers do well, one can forgive them the odd miniscule failing .......

stephenred
06-02-2009, 08:05 PM
Congratulations on your wonderful 4350s. Regarding active xovers, why go digital when you can get better sounding analogue active xovers for less money? I am using an ex-studio BSS FDS360 xover on my 4344s and am delighted with it. It cost me $400 NZ including card customisation. Was well over two thousand here new 10 years ago.

My speakers are sat on 6" high stands which have noticeably improved bass extension and articulation. With only one 15" woofer a side, the 4344s don't have your 4350 bass, but it is sufficient- especially with a pair of Jeff Rowland Model 7s monoblocks pushing out 700 watts into 4 ohms on the bottom end.

Hybrid amps are being used on the top at the moment- either a 100 watt Radford TT100 which has a solid state front end and KT88s in the power stage or NZ made Lewitt Phoenixes, which are 120 watt Class A, SET front end and mosfet power stage zero feedback amps. Both sound great- but different!

In my experience, the more grip and headroom you can have on the bottom end the better- as the actress said to the bishop....

Audionutz
06-02-2009, 11:55 PM
Congratulations on your wonderful 4350s. Regarding active xovers, why go digital when you can get better sounding analogue active xovers for less money? I am using an ex-studio BSS FDS360 xover on my 4344s and am delighted with it. It cost me $400 NZ including card customisation. Was well over two thousand here new 10 years ago.

My speakers are sat on 6" high stands which have noticeably improved bass extension and articulation. With only one 15" woofer a side, the 4344s don't have your 4350 bass, but it is sufficient- especially with a pair of Jeff Rowland Model 7s monoblocks pushing out 700 watts into 4 ohms on the bottom end.

Hybrid amps are being used on the top at the moment- either a 100 watt Radford TT100 which has a solid state front end and KT88s in the power stage or NZ made Lewitt Phoenixes, which are 120 watt Class A, SET front end and mosfet power stage zero feedback amps. Both sound great- but different!

In my experience, the more grip and headroom you can have on the bottom end the better- as the actress said to the bishop....


Thanks Stephen,

Nice to hear from another antipodean and a fellow K1W1 as well ! By any chance, would you be the gentleman that was interested in these 4350's originally ?

I do plan on some stands in the future, once I find/construct something solid enough and aesthetically/politically suitable. The crossover question certainly polarises opinions. I only yesterday swapped in a Behringer CX-2310 with good results over the old JBL. Gives me a lot more bass tuneability, although as you point out, the bass could do with more "oomph" .....

Overall still very impressed with them though. Even in these early days, they continue to improve with every change/mod.

My intentions are to make haste slowly with any mods. I do have an ME-850 power amp coming back from loan soon which I will try both on the bass and uppers and see how it goes. A slight overkill on the bass I suspect, but it will certainly have enough power.

The Marantz MA-24's I currently run full range on the mid/high. Although only 30 wpc Class A, they punch well above their weight and have performed amazingly on some large floorstanders in the past. They have a particularly sweet and accurate presentation that I like, plus they are small enough to tuck away almost anywhere.

Cheers

Scott

Mr. Widget
06-03-2009, 09:19 AM
They have a particularly sweet and accurate presentation that I like, plus they are small enough to tuck away almost anywhere.So is a Volkswagen Beetle compared to a pair of 4350s. :D

I think your idea about raising them makes sense if your room isn't terribly large or you must sit close to them. Realize you shouldn't sit any closer than 2.5 meters from them... 3-3.5m is better. I also agree with your idea of making all mods reversible.

Digital crossover? I use a DEQX and would love to move up to better analog units. The DEQX is a very good digital unit, but I am always feeling as though I am missing something. I have heard the same speakers that I use with Pass Labs crossovers and admittedly better amps, and there is simply no comparison.


Widget

boputnam
06-03-2009, 07:40 PM
About the only criticism I can level so far is that the mids lacks some "palpability" and a bit of definition in regards to instrument and vocal placement. As one friend remarked though, this is more an observation of "Glass half full" than "Glass half empty", if that makes sense ?

Considering how much these 40 year old speakers do well, one can forgive them the odd miniscule failing .......I find that an odd comment about these/those.


I think your idea about raising them makes sense...Odder still :p, unless when listening you are positioned significantly out of the dispersion of the MF, HF and UHF elements. Truly?

Which makes me ask:

Having recently become the custodian of a pair of pristine JBL 4350's.....Please define "pristine"? What condition are the drivers in? Has anyone worked on them, and if so, what was done?

I do believe, that if you are sitting in front of these - even in antipodeanland - you should have wonderful definition, er, by definition, so long as the drivers and internal crossover are performing properly. :)

BMWCCA
06-03-2009, 08:22 PM
Odder still :p, unless when listening you are positioned significantly out of the dispersion of the MF, HF and UHF elements.When you consider that the UF and UHF drivers are positioned about 5-inches lower on the 4350 than on the 4345, it seems perfectly reasonable to me. :D

Though I can't imagine those double-fifteens needing a lift to increase bass extension. :dont-know
Do the 2230/31s have that much less bass output than the 2235s (or 2245)?

jbl_daddy
06-03-2009, 08:43 PM
A good clean crossover first, next you can never have enough power. I used a pair of Crown PSA-2's for about 8-10 years on mine and would clip the amps on a daily basis. For the past five years I have been very happy with a Crown K1 on the upper end and a K2 for the 15's. Night and day difference on the low end. Ps. mine are 4340's super old school...

Keep them, love them, do not let your wife talk you into selling them...

I told my wife I had mine long before her and she married me with them.

Mark

Mr. Widget
06-03-2009, 08:46 PM
When you consider that the UF and UHF drivers are positioned about 5-inches lower on the 4350 than on the 4345, it seems perfectly reasonable to me. :D:yes:




Though I can't imagine those double-fifteens needing a lift to increase bass extension. :dont-knowIncrease? Raising them will clean up the midbass and might slightly reduce low end extension.


Widget

BMWCCA
06-03-2009, 08:58 PM
Increase? Raising them will clean up the midbass and might slightly reduce low end extension.Hey, I didn't suggest it. Look up about seven posts to see where the idea came from. ;)

boputnam
06-03-2009, 09:08 PM
When you consider that the UF and UHF drivers are positioned about 5-inches lower on the 4350 than on the 4345, it seems perfectly reasonable to me. :D:bs:

Guys, you take me as someone without JBL references nor experience! Duh. I considered their physical layout before posting (it is why I chased 4345's and not 4350's, but still...). And, it was not I who suggested that raising them would 'increase bass extension'. "Double-duh" to that one...


Realize you shouldn't sit any closer than 2.5 meters from them... 3-3.5m is better. At 3.5m (~11.5-ft) these are THAT beamy? :bs:to you too... :rotfl:

It would be nice for all the "Raise 'em up!" pundits to slow down and let us hear more about the provenance of these particular cabinets and their condition.

Ducatista47
06-03-2009, 09:11 PM
About the only criticism I can level so far is that the mids lacks some "palpability" and a bit of definition in regards to instrument and vocal placement. As one friend remarked though, this is more an observation of "Glass half full" than "Glass half empty", if that makes sense ?

Considering how much these 40 year old speakers do well, one can forgive them the odd miniscule failing .......

Perhaps I am totally misunderstanding, but I took that to mean suffuse imaging. Truth be told, the big four way monitors will never image very sharply. The layout is impossible for that, and twin woofers never help either. These designs have huge rewards in other departments so I never minded much.

As for midrange "palpability", I agree to the extent that these systems reward superior amplification to whatever extent it is employed. The better the amp, the more realistic the sound. I personally prefer little tube amps with the best first watt possible, as opposed to power for slam. These are efficient systems and the first watt is almost everything for the mids and highs. With biamping you can have it both ways. Your taste in listening might detest that approach, I would not know, but if you have the stuff around to try it you would have nothing to lose.

Clark

boputnam
06-03-2009, 09:38 PM
Why not just invert the 2308 and see if that makes any difference whatsoever... :hmm:

BMWCCA
06-03-2009, 09:40 PM
Guys, you take me as someone without JBL references nor experience! Duh. I considered their physical layout before posting (it is why I chased 4345's and not 4350's, but still...).Not at all. And that was one of the attributes of the 4345 (as well as SAEMAN's 4346) that appealed to me when I was "shopping".
And, it was not I who suggested that raising them would 'increase bass extension'. "Double-duh" to that one...No. It was here:
My speakers are sat on 6" high stands which have noticeably improved bass extension and articulation. With only one 15" woofer a side, the 4344s don't have your 4350 bass, but it is sufficient- especially with a pair of Jeff Rowland Model 7s monoblocks pushing out 700 watts into 4 ohms on the bottom end.

Peace. Out. :rockon2:

John
06-03-2009, 10:31 PM
4346


4346 ? Interesting it sounds like a JBL series # I never heard of ?

Ducatista47
06-03-2009, 10:51 PM
4346 ? Interesting it sounds like a JBL series # I never heard of ?

Does it refer to the speaker being leaned on in this shot? http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=183971&postcount=59

Clark

John
06-03-2009, 11:00 PM
Does it refer to the speaker being leaned on in this shot? http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=183971&postcount=59

Clark

It could be?, I missed that one by a few weeks but I did experiance the 4351!!!:)

BMWCCA
06-03-2009, 11:25 PM
4346 ? Interesting it sounds like a JBL series # I never heard of ?Yep. Custom SAEman design, basically a taller 4344 for the Japanese market (click the pic):

http://www.jbl43.net/img/4346-2-1s.jpg (http://jbl43.com/?pid=12782155)

Mr. Widget
06-03-2009, 11:50 PM
Why not just invert the 2308 and see if that makes any difference whatsoever... :hmm:It shouldn't make much of a difference, though I admit I never measured one that way. I am a big fan of getting the mid horn, especially one as beamy as the 2311, at or near ear level. In the 4350 it is nearly a foot below typical seated ear height. I think raising it makes sense.

Here is JBL's published vertical response for the 2307 and 2311 with 2308.


Widget

boputnam
06-04-2009, 09:19 AM
Why not just invert the 2308...?You think this worth trying?

Mr. Widget
06-04-2009, 09:28 AM
You think this worth trying?It's certainly an easy thing to try, but as I understand the acoustic lens theory, they perform somewhat like an optical diffraction grate. These are meant to bend the sound waves outward and have little effect vertically.


Widget

Audionutz
06-04-2009, 03:36 PM
Thanks to all for the dissertations, descriptions, dissagreements and details !


I find that an odd comment about these/those.

Odder still :p, unless when listening you are positioned significantly out of the dispersion of the MF, HF and UHF elements. Truly?

Which makes me ask:
Please define "pristine"? What condition are the drivers in? Has anyone worked on them, and if so, what was done?

I do believe, that if you are sitting in front of these - even in antipodeanland - you should have wonderful definition, er, by definition, so long as the drivers and internal crossover are performing properly. :)


These speakers are a genuine one owner prior to me. Known history along with all manuals, brochures and warranty cards. They are truly pristine imho :). I have recently oiled the cabinets and can find not one flaw, chip or discouloration, anywhere on the woodwork. The baffles are a slightly different coulor and do show some minor scuffs here and there.

The drivers are all original as described by the previous owner. They were sent to Jands in Sydney, the JBL agent, some time ago for service. I am awaitng the paperwork to see exactly what was done. Apparently the cost was not small.

As for my comment on "palpability" etc, I likely did not make the context clear. Coming from ownership of several high end speaker systems, the latest being Usher AC-20's with ceramic mids and highs, I find the JBL's less able to produce the pinpoint accuracy of the midrange. This may even be a good thing overall and more of a criticism of the Ushers than the JBL's. Personally, I dont find it a major issue and am blissfully happy with the sound they produce.


Considering my coments are based on a "whole" three weeks of ownership, I may well revise them completely in time to come. With upgrades in amplification, room treatment and positioning, the issue may even dissapear completely :applaud:

boputnam
06-04-2009, 06:46 PM
Yo, 'nutz...

Thanks for the added detail. I'll be very interested in that refurb info, too. The 2202A and 2440/2308 combine together awfully darn well to cover that frequency range you are talking about. Nearly seamlessly, actually. However, the 2440 does benefit from installing a new diaphragm after all the years - many here have done it, and note the improvement. I wonder if that was on Jands' to-do list? Much of their cost charges might have related to remag of those alnico motors - I hope they stuffed a new diaphragm into the 2440! :bouncy:

Otherwise, the woofs should have all been reconed. That would help the 2202A.

Any chance you can post some pics? :applaud: We love to oogle these.

Combing off the Usher's will be a change. But, you should be aware the larger 43xx series are not "plug-and-play". They require a bit of set up - tuning to the room.

It may be you are not accustomed to the big low-end of a "real" speaker ;) and so the MF, HF and UHF are under-balanced (gain wise) for your taste. Working with the amp(s) output(s), using differential gain, you could achieve a balance more to your liking.

Anyway, I'll be anxious to learn what Jands' has done. Maybe there are a few tweaks left...

Oh - and try inverting that 2308 lense. It should elevate the HF dispersion pattern about 3" is my guess. No sense directing it down, now is there...

JBLRaiser
06-04-2009, 07:23 PM
Thanks to all for the dissertations, descriptions, dissagreements and details !




These speakers are a genuine one owner prior to me. Known history along with all manuals, brochures and warranty cards. They are truly pristine imho :). I have recently oiled the cabinets and can find not one flaw, chip or discouloration, anywhere on the woodwork. The baffles are a slightly different coulor and do show some minor scuffs here and there.

The drivers are all original as described by the previous owner. They were sent to Jands in Sydney, the JBL agent, some time ago for service. I am awaitng the paperwork to see exactly what was done. Apparently the cost was not small.

As for my comment on "palpability" etc, I likely did not make the context clear. Coming from ownership of several high end speaker systems, the latest being Usher AC-20's with ceramic mids and highs, I find the JBL's less able to produce the pinpoint accuracy of the midrange. This may even be a good thing overall and more of a criticism of the Ushers than the JBL's. Personally, I dont find it a major issue and am blissfully happy with the sound they produce.


Considering my coments are based on a "whole" three weeks of ownership, I may well revise them completely in time to come. With upgrades in amplification, room treatment and positioning, the issue may even dissapear completely :applaud:

Could you post some detailed pictures of your lovely speakers?

Audionutz
06-04-2009, 07:48 PM
Heres the pics so far ........

And yes, the rugs have been removed and system has been considerably tidied up since :D

Cheers

'Nutz

Audionutz
06-04-2009, 07:57 PM
Yo, 'nutz...

Thanks for the added detail. I'll be very interested in that refurb info, too. The 2202A and 2440/2308 combine together awfully darn well to cover that frequency range you are talking about. Nearly seamlessly, actually. However, the 2440 does benefit from installing a new diaphragm after all the years - many here have done it, and note the improvement. I wonder if that was on Jands' to-do list? Much of their cost charges might have related to remag of those alnico motors - I hope they stuffed a new diaphragm into the 2440! :bouncy:

Otherwise, the woofs should have all been reconed. That would help the 2202A.

Any chance you can post some pics? :applaud: We love to oogle these.

Combing off the Usher's will be a change. But, you should be aware the larger 43xx series are not "plug-and-play". They require a bit of set up - tuning to the room.

It may be you are not accustomed to the big low-end of a "real" speaker ;) and so the MF, HF and UHF are under-balanced (gain wise) for your taste. Working with the amp(s) output(s), using differential gain, you could achieve a balance more to your liking.

Anyway, I'll be anxious to learn what Jands' has done. Maybe there are a few tweaks left...

Oh - and try inverting that 2308 lense. It should elevate the HF dispersion pattern about 3" is my guess. No sense directing it down, now is there...

Thanks Bo, just tried inverting the lens and a definite improvement !

As for the full range issue, I agree. I really thought I knew what bass was - how wrong was I ...ha :banghead:

Even at low levels, these babies rumble and punch like few others I have heard. I have adjusted the gain and input impedance on the MA-24's to blend them with the bass levels more accurately. This definitely helped, especially given the passive preamp/attenuator I'm using needs to see at least 100k. I run the MA-24's full range and it now works really well, to my ears at least.

They also need toeing in to establish a more stable center image of course, and that's on the to-do list. The wife helped last night to get some insulation material under them as a reviewer was coming out today to shoot some pics. I thought the blankets looked a little "low rent" ....

How many guys have a wife who not only indulges their passion but is willing to heave monsters like these around after a hard days work ? :applaud: Bless her cotton socks !

MikeBrewster77
06-04-2009, 08:12 PM
How many guys have a wife who not only indulges their passion but is willing to heave monsters like these around after a hard days work ?

Good God you are one lucky man!!! :p

JBLRaiser
06-04-2009, 08:44 PM
Heres the pics so far ........

And yes, the rugs have been removed and system has been considerably tidied up since :D

Cheers

'Nutz

anticipation quelled. Absolutely fine.:applaud:

Audionutz
06-04-2009, 09:32 PM
Good God you are one lucky man!!! :p

Yes indeed, and I endeavour not to forget it too often .......:D

John
06-04-2009, 09:39 PM
the woofs should have all been reconed.

Hey Bo ,The woofs would of had to have been reconed at least once if they are the original 2230A woofers. All the first year 4350's had the white woofers in them.;)

Audionutz
06-04-2009, 09:50 PM
Here's a better pic taken by the reviewer just this morning.

Cheers

'Nutz

Woofer
06-04-2009, 10:25 PM
Couldn't you have moved the Speaks in a bit for the shot? :o:
I can't fit the whole pic in my screen.... :p

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d193/bobbysdad/HMVGrommet.jpg

Audionutz
06-05-2009, 12:29 AM
Couldn't you have moved the Speaks in a bit for the shot? :o:
I can't fit the whole pic in my screen.... :p

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d193/bobbysdad/HMVGrommet.jpg


'Onya Grommet :applaud:! A bigger screen maybe ...? Or try looking around the corner a bit, you should be able to see it all then ;)

As for moving them, as you know I'm only 5'2" and 150lbs dripping wet, that's easier said than done :D

Woofer
06-05-2009, 12:40 AM
Yo, 'nutz...

It may be you are not accustomed to the big low-end of a "real" speaker ;) and so the MF, HF and UHF are under-balanced (gain wise) for your taste. Working with the amp(s) output(s), using differential gain, you could achieve a balance more to your liking.


I think what 'nutz has forgotten to mention boputnam, is that he has on previous occasion, been the owner of many different ALTEC Multiplex speakers, (I think just about every different variety of the 604 ever made), and has also been the proud owner of a beautiful pair of Barcelonas prior to the Ushers.
There's also been a few JBL's along the way also. ;)
... yes, and THAT's why he's 'nutz :blink:

Cheers. :D

Woofer
06-05-2009, 12:42 AM
..... as you know I'm only 5'2" and 150lbs dripping wet. :D

Funny!!! You sound much BIGGER in ya emails! :p

boputnam
06-05-2009, 08:42 AM
Boy, they are beautiful.


Thanks Bo, just tried inverting the lens and a definite improvement !I didn't see the lense in any pictures - good to know you have them. I see you have the grilles, too - wow. Are they in good condition?
[/quote]


Hey Bo ,The woofs would of had to have been reconed at least once if they are the original 2230A woofers. All the first year 4350's had the white woofers in them.;)Yer right, John - but there was a slightly later variant of the 4350 (see image) which had the 2231A woofs, which is what 'nutz's look like, to me. However, the bracket holding 'nutz's 2405 looks like from the first variant - maybe these are a mid-evolution copy!

Anxious to know the work Jands' did - there is some missing bits around the frames of the 2202A's and 2231A's suggesting they might not have got to everything...

John
06-05-2009, 01:04 PM
Yer right, John - but there was a slightly later variant of the 4350 (see image) which had the 2231A woofs, which is what 'nutz's look like, to me. However, the bracket holding 'nutz's 2405 looks like from the first variant - maybe these are a mid-evolution copy!



The ones nutz has are from the first year of production. All of them had the 2230A woofers. By the way his have the black baffles so they are from the first batch of the first year. Very rare. :bouncy:

I have a pair of 4350's from the first year as well but with blue baffles that they switched to later in the year and they also have the 2230A woofers.:)

Audionutz
06-05-2009, 03:23 PM
Boy, they are beautiful.

I didn't see the lense in any pictures - good to know you have them. I see you have the grilles, too - wow. Are they in good condition?

Yer right, John - but there was a slightly later variant of the 4350 (see image) which had the 2231A woofs, which is what 'nutz's look like, to me. However, the bracket holding 'nutz's 2405 looks like from the first variant - maybe these are a mid-evolution copy!

Anxious to know the work Jands' did - there is some missing bits around the frames of the 2202A's and 2231A's suggesting they might not have got to everything...

Grills are absolutely spotless Bo, as are the badges on them. Even got the "Grill Care" cards telling me how to treat them !

Defintely 2231a's in 'em too. One was pulled to inpsect by the first potential buyer. Which bits precisely are missing ?

boputnam
06-05-2009, 05:03 PM
The ones nutz has are from the first year of production. All of them had the 2230A woofers. By the way his have the black baffles so they are from the first batch of the first year. Very rare. :bouncy:Agreed, but (pretty...) clearly those are 2231A's. Someone has done some swapping of elements along the way. Not uncommon with vintage cabinets.


If you're sure they are 2231A's then I would suggest that somewhere in the 40 year life the owner installed new woofersThat there is what I'm wondering. Serial numbers will tell all...


Which bits precisely are missing ?It's only a purely visual appraisal, but it seems some chunks of the (largely) cosmetic foam from atop the frames has been broken away. It is a non-issue.

saeman
06-05-2009, 05:08 PM
Hi Audionutz: I saw your post some days ago but was not able to add my two cents into your questions about your 4350's. You might post the serial numbers from the baffle foil cals. This will confirm their age with a high degree of accuracy. Like John already said, the early black baffle 4350's came EXCLUSIVELY with the white aquaplas coated 2230A woofers.

The first version of the 4350, introduced in mid to late 1973, came with the white woofers 2230A and the foil cal says 4350 with a 5 digit serial number and no suffix. The very first models had black baffles on walnut veneer. This is easy to understand as at that time they were producing a couple other models that were also black baffled - 4320, 4330 I believe. Shortly into production they introduced the blue painted baffles that everyone knows. There's no way of telling how many pairs were produced with black baffles but cabinet serial numbers are helping me narrow it down. I have seen several blue baffle pairs with serials in the 10100 range - all with white woofs and early cabinet features. That would suggest that maybe no more than 50 pairs with black baffles were offered.

The serial numbers of my pair are 10027 and 10029. What are yours?

The second variation, referred to as the 4350A, had the same 4350 grille badges but the foil cal serial number had an A suffix. This model is most often what you see. The woofer was changed from the 2230A to the 2231A, which had a mass ring installed to replace the cone mass afforded by the aquaplas coating. All other components were the same. I believe also that the 3107 network was continued with little to no modification. The 2405 mount was changed from the split ring to the new 4 bolt square mounting flange. This change came about in mid to late 1974, same time as the 2231A.

Your cabinets are definately first few months of production with all early features - white grille pegs, square exterior covers over the unused mounting holes, screw heads visible on the baffle for bracing location and mid base box mounting and the split ring mount for the 2405.

For the 2231A's to be original these cabinets would have to have gone out the door with the 2231A's months later than the cabs were produced, i.e. already into 4350A production, and if so the serial numbers would most likely have the A suffix. The foil cals were serialized and placed on the cabinet as likely the last thing done since the l-Pad could not be mounted with a foil cal already installed.

If you're sure they are 2231A's then I would suggest that somewhere in the 40 year life the owner installed new woofers - or - this was a pair of cabinets that sat around for a period of time before being turned into a finished produce. In manufacturing this is a very common occurance. Again, let's see the serial numbers.

Before you posted your find the pair I have is the only pair I had ever seen or knew of. I bought them maybe 4 years ago and have since restored them to original. They came with a quad set of ratty JBL automotive 15" woofers installed but the owner had stored away the original white cone 2230A's, less their decaying lansaloy surrounds. I was lucky and was able to get them all serviced and put back into the cabinets.

Here is a couple pics of mine for your comparison. They are currently sitting unused along the back wall of my family room but I will eventually move them into playing position again.

Regards - Rick

boputnam
06-05-2009, 05:16 PM
As well, Rick - 'nutz's have the darker framed 2202(A or H...?) woofer. Not the original, natural cork color. Does that tell us anything?

Either these are transitional, as you say, or updated along the way.

saeman
06-05-2009, 05:39 PM
The C8R2202 kit now comes with surround gaskets that are black foam. To me this indicates that his 2202A's were reconed in the last few years. Years back the kit came with cork surround gaskets. I'm not sure when they dropped the cork and added the black foam. Nowadays if you want the original appearance of the cork, you need to order them separately from JBL. They (cork) are still standard with the E120 kit and a few others.

From my research the 2230A came with cork surround gaskets. This was a very short lived woofer and EVERYONE I have ever seen has a cone that was pulled from 135A production and used in JBL's new PRO basket. I have never seen an original untouched 2231A with cork gaskets, only black foam.

Some of you long time (old time) reconers might be able to add to these comments.

Audionutz
06-05-2009, 05:45 PM
Hi Audionutz: I saw your post some days ago but was not able to add my two cents into your questions about your 4350's. You might post the serial numbers from the baffle foil cals. This will confirm their age with a high degree of accuracy. Like John already said, the early black baffle 4350's came EXCLUSIVELY with the white aquaplas coated 2230A woofers.

The first version of the 4350, introduced in mid to late 1973, came with the white woofers 2230A and the foil cal says 4350 with a 5 digit serial number and no suffix. The very first models had black baffles on walnut veneer. This is easy to understand as at that time they were producing a couple other models that were also black baffled - 4320, 4330 I believe. Shortly into production they introduced the blue painted baffles that everyone knows. There's no way of telling how many pairs were produced with black baffles but cabinet serial numbers are helping me narrow it down. I have seen several blue baffle pairs with serials in the 10100 range - all with white woofs and early cabinet features. That would suggest that maybe no more than 50 pairs with black baffles were offered.

The serial numbers of my pair are 10027 and 10029. What are yours?

The second variation, referred to as the 4350A, had the same 4350 grille badges but the foil cal serial number had an A suffix. This model is most often what you see. The woofer was changed from the 2230A to the 2231A, which had a mass ring installed to replace the cone mass afforded by the aquaplas coating. All other components were the same. I believe also that the 3107 network was continued with little to no modification. The 2405 mount was changed from the split ring to the new 4 bolt square mounting flange. This change came about in mid to late 1974, same time as the 2231A.

Your cabinets are definately first few months of production with all early features - white grille pegs, square exterior covers over the unused mounting holes, screw heads visible on the baffle for bracing location and mid base box mounting and the split ring mount for the 2405.

For the 2231A's to be original these cabinets would have to have gone out the door with the 2231A's months later than the cabs were produced, i.e. already into 4350A production, and if so the serial numbers would most likely have the A suffix. The foil cals were serialized and placed on the cabinet as likely the last thing done since the l-Pad could not be mounted with a foil cal already installed.

If you're sure they are 2231A's then I would suggest that somewhere in the 40 year life the owner installed new woofers - or - this was a pair of cabinets that sat around for a period of time before being turned into a finished produce. In manufacturing this is a very common occurance. Again, let's see the serial numbers.

Before you posted your find the pair I have is the only pair I had ever seen or knew of. I bought them maybe 4 years ago and have since restored them to original. They came with a quad set of ratty JBL automotive 15" woofers installed but the owner had stored away the original white cone 2230A's, less their decaying lansaloy surrounds. I was lucky and was able to get them all serviced and put back into the cabinets.

Here is a couple pics of mine for your comparison. They are currently sitting unused along the back wall of my family room but I will eventually move them into playing position again.

Regards - Rick

Thanks very much Rick, great to get some further history on these. Your's look almost like the day they were made ! A tribute to your restoration skills, considering what you had to work with I suspect.

Also, my apologies, but the 15's are 2230A's not 31's as I was led to believe. However, they are obviously not white cone ?? Just goes to show that one should check before believing anything ones told :banghead:

Here's the serial numbers on mine ....

Regards

'Nutz

saeman
06-05-2009, 05:45 PM
As well, Rick - 'nutz's have the darker framed 2202(A or H...?) woofer. Not the original, natural cork color. Does that tell us anything?

Either these are transitional, as you say, or updated along the way.

Hi Bo:

The serial numbers will tell the story

- early foil cals with early numbers suggest woofers have been changed out at some time. This was a very common practice for speakers in professional use.

- late foil cals with A suffix serial numbers would suggest that an early pair of cabinets, that were set asside in the factory for some reason (repair, flaw in the finish, etc.) and were then finish assembled during a time when the 2231A's were being used.

Rick

saeman
06-05-2009, 05:53 PM
Just ask and you shall receive!!!! Thanks Audionutz. Those numbers are actually higher than several pairs I have seen with Blue Baffles - right near 100 numbers higher than my 10027 and 10029 - Interesting to say the least. This really makes it hard on my research, that was suggesting to me that there were maybe 50 pairs made in black. Now I can only wait (years and years) for some other black/white to show up.

I would have to bet that the woofers were changed out at some point. Does it matter??? Only if you hope to keep them original. The 2231A is likely a better producer than the 2230A, if you can hear such miniscule differences and I can't.

Either way this is a rare rare pair of 4350's and a great find. In the 4 years since I found mine I have not seen a pair offered anywhere, let alone Down Under. I hope you keep these and enjoy them. If I can help you in any way please let me know. I do luv the 4350 and all similar variants.

saeman
06-05-2009, 05:58 PM
Hold the presses! I forgot to ask if the black baffle paint is original or have the baffles possibly been repainted? With a woofer removed, is there black paint oversprayed into the interior or is it blue. Might seem like a stupid question but in my travels buying supposedly original 43XX's I have found all sorts of changes made to them. Just a thought.

Audionutz
06-05-2009, 06:11 PM
Hold the presses! I forgot to ask if the black baffle paint is original or have the baffles possibly been repainted? With a woofer removed, is there black paint oversprayed into the interior or is it blue. Might seem like a stupid question but in my travels buying supposedly original 43XX's I have found all sorts of changes made to them. Just a thought.


Next time I stick my head in, I will be sure to check :D !!

Not too worried about the '30 or '31 issue. As you say, the differences are minimal and I certainly dont fell like I'm missing anything "down there", so to speak .......

Thanks again for all the great info. I knew they were rare, but it's nice to know just "how rare" they might be - not that they'll ever be going anywhere.

Cheers

Scott

saeman
06-05-2009, 07:20 PM
Thanks for the info Scott. 2230A's makes more sense. I'm sure that the white recone kits were long gone when it came time to recone. For me, I wanted to maintain their originality so I had the woofs serviced with new spiders, new surrounds, dome caps and cork surround gaskets, and I'll live with the 40 year old electron deficient voice coils. My cabinets had very little damage to them but the nature of the abuse (dinged corners and edges) left me with a re-veneer option as the only way to make them new again. They're otherwise original and I like them a lot.

Over the years many many 4350's have passed thru the house - originals, restored originals and repros - and the 4350 is my personal favorite of all the big 43XX'ers - each to his own. If I had known about them 20 years ago when they were cheap and nobody wanted them, I'd likely have a house full of them. I bought my Sovereigns in 74 and back then I knew nothing about pro monitors. Who knows - if I had I might well have bought one of the first pairs. My sovs now reside along a low wall in the bedroom with no complaints from the boss. I'd never get away with putting my holy grail 4350's in their place.

Please keep me posted on any new info you uncover with your 4350's. I've been collecting 4350 data for a long time, trying to determine variations and production numbers.

Rick

boputnam
06-07-2009, 11:23 AM
Defintely 2231a's in 'em too. One was pulled to inpsect by the first potential buyer.


Also, my apologies, but the 15's are 2230A's not 31's as I was led to believe.


2230A's makes more sense. I'm sure that the white recone kits were long gone when it came time to recone.

But they look like they were reconed with maybe a 2235 kit? That might have happened if they were done more recently.

Scott...

When you next pull the woofers, look on the back of the cone(s) - they should have markings indicating what kit they were. That should also be indicated on the Jands' work order too. I'm still wondering if they put new diaphragms into the 2440's. :hmm:

Mr. Widget
06-07-2009, 11:30 AM
Did anyone ask about the blue baffle? I must have missed that.


Widget

Audionutz
06-07-2009, 04:12 PM
Did anyone ask about the blue baffle? I must have missed that.


Widget

Asked but not yet answered Widget. I'll have a look inside next time and also check if the re-cone number's showing.

Cheers

'Nutz

Phil Jeffery
06-16-2009, 09:23 PM
Hi Scott,

I hadn't noticed this thread....I came across it when the notification email arrived when someone posted at Lindsay's original FS thread.

Congrats on your 4350s; I'd heard you snagged them! I had checked them out earlier in the piece. I'd say it would've been me who Lindsay had mentioned had viewed one of the bass drivers. I had made mention of the 2230A back then, see http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=247988&highlight=2230a#post247988 and the fact that they must've had a subsequent recone. What are you going to do though? The early Aquaplas recone kit probably never even made it to Australia, let alone being available decades later!

I had a feeling at the time that the finish of the baffles were slightly different; one was a slightly tacky "Nextel" type finish, the other more of a matt black. Is that right? I was spending more time chin-wagging than taking notice of things like that at the time (interesting guys to talk to, eh?).

Anyway, good to see they're being appreciated; I ain't jealous..I ain't jealous........the hell I ain't!!

Regards,
Phil

tomee
06-17-2009, 08:14 AM
This place really is full of JBL nuts - not one mention of the rare specially made plexiglass Thorens TT!

As well, tell us more about that stereo cabinet. Was it part of the deal with the speakers, and is that a JBL badge on the bottom corner? Do the shelves stack?

Nice speakers too! I can only imagine what the bass is like from a pair of 15s. It would be interesting to know what 'Jands' shop did to them a few years ago, in terms of recones and/or replacement diaphragms.

Audionutz
06-17-2009, 08:34 PM
Hi Scott,

I hadn't noticed this thread....I came across it when the notification email arrived when someone posted at Lindsay's original FS thread.

Congrats on your 4350s; I'd heard you snagged them! I had checked them out earlier in the piece. I'd say it would've been me who Lindsay had mentioned had viewed one of the bass drivers. I had made mention of the 2230A back then, see http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=247988&highlight=2230a#post247988 and the fact that they must've had a subsequent recone. What are you going to do though? The early Aquaplas recone kit probably never even made it to Australia, let alone being available decades later!

I had a feeling at the time that the finish of the baffles were slightly different; one was a slightly tacky "Nextel" type finish, the other more of a matt black. Is that right? I was spending more time chin-wagging than taking notice of things like that at the time (interesting guys to talk to, eh?).

Anyway, good to see they're being appreciated; I ain't jealous..I ain't jealous........the hell I ain't!!

Regards,
Phil


Hi Phil,

Yes, they're certainly being appreciated.

Not real worried about the aquaplas re-cones. The existing ones are in excellent condition, as you know. The difference n the fascias does not worry me greatly either, as they are relatively close serial numbers anyway.

I suspect they may have been changed from the blue baffle at some stage, which might account for the difference. I have not had my head inside yet to check for overspray, so who knows :blink: ?

Cheers

Scott

Audionutz
06-17-2009, 08:40 PM
This place really is full of JBL nuts - not one mention of the rare specially made plexiglass Thorens TT!

As well, tell us more about that stereo cabinet. Was it part of the deal with the speakers, and is that a JBL badge on the bottom corner? Do the shelves stack?

Nice speakers too! I can only imagine what the bass is like from a pair of 15s. It would be interesting to know what 'Jands' shop did to them a few years ago, in terms of recones and/or replacement diaphragms.

Have yet to get the info from from Jands as to what exactly was done, but will post it here when it comes to hand.

The Thorens Phantasie Turntable was an absolute bonus part of the deal. Although it may pain some to hear I have not even connected it yet .... sure makes a nice visual addition though :)

The cabinet was also part of the deal and yes, thats a genuine JBL metal badge on it. The shelves also separate and are stackable - fitted with nice heavy brass posts to lock them together. The original owner went to a lot of trouble to make sure it all worked well together. The twin Crown D-150's are fitted into their own enclosures in the base at the rear. As you can see the JBL crossover was also very nicely custom mounted.

Bass can be described as supremely adequate ( to put it mildly :applaud:)

Cheers

Scott

Audionutz
02-01-2010, 03:34 PM
Happy New Year to one and all !

Well, some time has passed now and I have had a wonderful time getting to know the 4350's with various equipment.

Having just moved house and now in a slightly smaller room, I find that the speakers are best placed on edge. Better time alignment, less bass problems (in this room) better imaging etc etc.

However .... I now find that the 2440 sometimes exibits a certain "nasal" or "honky" tone. Especially with female vocals it seems and some horn instruments.

Various discussions with other users seem to suggest there are several remedies;

1. Physical attenuation via screens/lenses or a variety of material placed in the throats.

2. A good quality equaliser in the signal chain.

3. Testing and identifying the actual frequency causing the problem, then attenuation via one of the above.

I have no wish to open the speakers to insert filters or mod the crossovers at this stage, so am interested in what others have found when faced with this ?

Any suggestions greatly appreciated ?

Cheers

'Nutz

grumpy
02-01-2010, 04:30 PM
G'day Mr. Nutz. Going back through the thread, I may have missed where
you say you have (or don't have) the "2308" lens that is intended to be placed
between you and the horn.

If not, I would humbly suggest starting there.

boputnam
02-01-2010, 05:56 PM
If not, I would humbly suggest starting there.+1

subwoof
02-01-2010, 06:49 PM
I would also strongly suggest a cleaning / new foam and alignment of the 2" drivers. When that foam turns to goo it will stick to the dia and be heard.

And yes, get the lens..:)

I have a pair of 4350A clones and a real one (WX) for a center channel but it's too damn high for the TV due to the fireplace lip....grrrr....

sub

Woofer
02-01-2010, 07:01 PM
Are the horns on the inside or outside?
Also since the move, are the horns at about the same height as before the move?
Are you sitting at approximately the same distance from your boxes?
Are they 'toed' in?
Are they on the floor or up on something?
What's their relationship to the walls? (back and sides)
Don't worry about the foam inside the 41's. They have been serviced too recently for that to be a problem.
.... and yes, are you using the lenses?

:blink:

Audionutz
02-01-2010, 07:05 PM
Thanks All !

yes, have tried the lenses, but they seem to "dull" the sound too much. Tried them facing both ways too ...

Horns are now at head height almost exactly, several inches higher than when they were in the standard position.

Placement about 2 foot from the rear wall and toed in approx 35 deg. About 2 foot from the walls and approx 7 feet apart.

Horns are on the outside so far .....

They are sitting straight on the carpet at present, but have several ideas for de-coupling from the somewhat "resonant" old wodden floor.

Woofer
02-01-2010, 07:18 PM
You had it working OK before in your previous place, therefore you know the boxes are working fine.
I suggest it's time to 'invest' in a decent Graphic or Parametric EQ and fiddle around with the mid frequencies. eg: 630Hz, 800Hz 1KHz etc. to sort out possible 'new' room interactions.

;)

Audionutz
02-01-2010, 07:54 PM
Agreed - at least I have an idea of what they can sound like ... now to just get back to that :blink:

Tried the Tennis balls for support .....Score was Tennis Balls Nil - 4350's six !

They do make such a satisfying noise when they burst though :applaud:

speakerdave
02-01-2010, 08:07 PM
. . . . yes, have tried the lenses, but they seem to "dull" the sound too much. Tried them facing both ways too ... . . . .

Well, here's the thing: The problem you describe is clearly attributable to playing those straight shot exponentials without the diffusor. The two things are part of the one plan, and you are not going to get them sounding right without the 2308. So, I would suggest you put them back on and and give your "ear" time to adjust. Brighter almost always sounds better at first. Just put some music on and leave them on for awhile. Leave the room, clean up the kitchen, help junior find his other sneaker, rake some leaves. Then go back in and spend some time fiddling with the levels.

It's also going to pay to upgrade the capacitors (replace, bypass or bias) at some point. But first I think you should set a new baseline with the diffusers on. You definitely can get them sounding right with the diffusor on, but you will not have the same precision of imaging, if that is what you are focusing on.

Audionutz
02-01-2010, 08:24 PM
Thanks Speakerdave.

I expect you may be correct, but I keep harking back to the sound I had a few weeeks ago prior to the move. 2308's not fitted, pretty fair imaging and no "dullness" or smoothing on the horns. Of course, they 2440's were not firing directly at my face in that configuration with the speakers on their feet.

Now, if I fit the 2308's, the lens fins will be vertical and not horizontal, so one wonders what this will do to the imaging ? I realise of course that these are never goiing to be the Kings of Imaging - I didnt get them for that, but I would like to at least be able to place instruments and performers ....

I have always steered away from tweaks/mods that presented any king of brightness or shrillness. It may well be innitially impressive, but soon loses its appeal after prolonged listening ...

Cheers

"nutz

speakerdave
02-01-2010, 08:35 PM
Ahem . . . . add new velcros for the new position and mount them horizontally. I see the speakers still feel sacred to you.



Thanks Speakerdave.

I expect you may be correct, but I keep harking back to the sound I had a few weeeks ago prior to the move. 2308's not fitted, pretty fair imaging and no "dullness" or smoothing on the horns. Of course, they 2440's were not firing directly at my face in that configuration with the speakers on their feet.

Now, if I fit the 2308's, the lens fins will be vertical and not horizontal, so one wonders what this will do to the imaging ? I realise of course that these are never goiing to be the Kings of Imaging - I didnt get them for that, but I would like to at least be able to place instruments and performers ....

I have always steered away from tweaks/mods that presented any king of brightness or shrillness. It may well be innitially impressive, but soon loses its appeal after prolonged listening ...

Cheers

"nutz

Audionutz
02-01-2010, 08:44 PM
Ahem . . . . add new velcros for the new position and mount them horizontally. I see the speakers still feel sacred to you.


Yes - guilty as charged :)

Woofer
02-01-2010, 09:04 PM
What happens if you sit on the floor in front of your fave chair?
Alternatively, what's it sound like like if you stand up?
Are there dramatic changes in the sound?
You may need to try getting the horns on the inside, or if all fails, having them the box right way round if that's at all possible.... :(

Audionutz
02-06-2010, 03:01 AM
Update .......

Well, having garnered numerous opinions both here and elsewhere, I opted for the simple things first. Tried various materials in the horn throats, along with some basic EQ'ing with an old Behringer I had lying around. Some improvements were noticeable with both approaches, but none seemed to tame the problem completely. Went back to the drawing board and looked at the major things that had changed from the previous set up. The room was obviously the major item, so started looking at room response and especially under floor resonance and the mechanical coupling of the speakers to the floor, or lack thereof. The bass was flabby and very rumbly - the whole room danced along with any significant bass notes.

Tried de-coupling as much as pratical via rubber balls and small blocks of wood. Three placed under the speakers - 2 at the front and one at the rear. This got rid of the bass rumble, but did nothing for the horns. It also got rid of about 3db of bass response. Next tried the balls with one in the front and 2 at the rear - much the same. Then tried different materials under the speakers incl solid blocks of wood, rubber matting and combinations of the two. Agfter much huffing and puffing doing all this alone, along with several near hernias :banghead:, I ended up with two small blocks of wood at the rear corners, resting on the 4 inch round hard rubber kids cricket balls I found at a toy shop.

For the front, I struck on a solid stainless steel doorstop, of which I have many, having purchased them from the local Aldi's dicount supermarket a year or two ago. If you dont know of them, they are a range of very heavy machined cones of Stainless Steel. There are about 3 different types I have found, some shorter and wider that the others. All come with rubber rings around the outside (to prevent the door banging on them I presume) and with a rubber mat on one end. The other end is pointed or rounded to varying degree's. They weigh about 5 Lb each I guess. Been using them for component damping on amps etc etc

Anyway, I found that one of these placed under the front of the cabinet, at just the right height, directly below the baffle in conjunction with the balls etc at the rear has worked wonders. Not just for the bass response, which is getting close to what I had before, but also for the horns. The sound is now purer with no "honk" at all - even with no attenuation to the throats at all !

I mention this little journey in the hope others might find it useful. Apart from a lot of sweating and swearing, there was very little cost involved and the result was very pleasing.

Thanks to all those that took the time to offer assistance - greatly appreciated as always.

Good listening to you all.

Cheers

'Nutz