Which 12" woofer matches my needs best?

[testwork]

I'm looking for a JBL 12" woofer for a DIY project. It needs to play up to 1200-1500hz without any problem, as it'll be the low end on a two-way system.

I have subwoofers which will provide the subsonic duties.

This JBL 12" speaker in addition to sounding good with jazz and vocals, will be asked to provide a lot of "slam" because I enjoy a bit of "extra". This doesn't mean I need it to offer 120db at 30hz. Because I have subs for that. What this means is it needs to sound good with rock and roll and jazz and some pop, all at loud volumes.

I'm okay with used ebay treasures. Budget is about $200 for a pair but is flexible.

I'd prefer the dark grey cone over the cream colored. But beggars can't be choosers. Thanks for any suggestions!

Btw, box size doesn't matter. I can go big or small. But prefer 12" speaker due to width constraints.

[Loren42]

I'm looking for a JBL 12" woofer for a DIY project. It needs to play up to 1200-1500hz without any problem, as it'll be the low end on a two-way system.

I have subwoofers which will provide the subsonic duties.

This JBL 12" speaker in addition to sounding good with jazz and vocals, will be asked to provide a lot of "slam" because I enjoy a bit of "extra". This doesn't mean I need it to offer 120db at 30hz. Because I have subs for that. What this means is it needs to sound good with rock and roll and jazz and some pop, all at loud volumes.

I'm okay with used ebay treasures. Budget is about $200 for a pair but is flexible.

I'd prefer the dark grey cone over the cream colored. But beggars can't be choosers. Thanks for any suggestions!

Btw, box size doesn't matter. I can go big or small. But prefer 12" speaker due to width constraints.

Unless you provide us with the tweeter you plan to use, it is impossible to match a woofer to your project.

You need to consider where the tweeter frequency response covers and the SPL for the tweeter.

It is okay to have a tweeter that has a higher SPL level than the woofer, in fact it is necessary so you can pad the tweeter volume down to match the woofer.

There is more to this than you realize and it is not a simple process to select complementary drivers for a system.

I am sure there are many here that can help, but you need to tell us first what you have for a tweeter. Otherwise we are powerless to help. If you haven't selected a tweeter, then that's another matter altogether.

[speakerdave]

The 1200H was used that way in the 4425MkII. AKA C1200 in the Century Gold. Not particularly common, and I don't know if JBL still supports them.

[testwork]

I'm matching the woofer up with a Selenium D220i and a JBL horn for an ewave project I found over on audiokarma.

Dave, I'll research the 1200H. In my limited reading I haven't come across it yet.

Would appreciate all feedback guys!

Thanks,
Eddie

[pos]

The 2214H used in the 4425 (first generation) would also work and is quite common on ebay. The 128H could also be a good candidate.

Both of these do have quite heavy cones with a Fs around 20Hz.
If you have subs and are looking for a more efficient driver you might try looking for a 2206H or a 2204H.
Here is a good deal, with fresh cones (the PT waveguides are already mine :p) :
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=25092

[Loren42]

I'm matching the woofer up with a Selenium D220i and a JBL horn for an ewave project I found over on audiokarma.

Dave, I'll research the 1200H. In my limited reading I haven't come across it yet.

Would appreciate all feedback guys!

Thanks,
Eddie

I can't find any data on that Selenium number D220i.

[testwork]

POS, thanks for the suggestions! I've heard of those two models. The 2204H doesn't seem to hold it's value on eBay though? All the recently sold ones went for under $100 each, with recones.

Loren,
Sorry, I had the name wrong. It's the D220Ti. There are some graphs and other info on the first post here:

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=150939

[pos]

Buying drivers off ebay is like rolling a dice. You never know for sure what you get: aftermaket cone, domaged spider of voice coil, shifted magnet, etc...
Here you have a fresh recone with a proper kit, and you can be sure it was installed like it is supposed to.

[4313B]

POS, thanks for the suggestions! I've heard of those two models. The 2204H doesn't seem to hold it's value on eBay though? All the recently sold ones went for under $100 each, with recones.Then they're obviously stolen. It wouldn't make any kind of sense to recone a driver with a genuine JBL recone kit and then sell it for less than what it cost to recone it.

[Earl K]

I'm looking for a JBL 12" woofer for a DIY project. It needs to play up to 1200-1500hz without any problem, as it'll be the low end on a two-way system.

I have subwoofers which will provide the subsonic duties.

This JBL 12" speaker in addition to sounding good with jazz and vocals, will be asked to provide a lot of "slam" because I enjoy a bit of "extra". This doesn't mean I need it to offer 120db at 30hz. Because I have subs for that. What this means is it needs to sound good with rock and roll and jazz and some pop, all at loud volumes.

I'm okay with used ebay treasures. Budget is about $200 for a pair but is flexible.

- Well, IME, your budget isn't realistic enough for you to buy a pair of JBL SR ( Sound Reinforcement ) twelves that are guaranteed to be up to spec. ( FWIW, you can't even buy a pair of B&C Pro twelves from P.E. for that price / add 50 to 100% more for PE )

- The problem here is that a goodly portion of these "eBay treasures" that you reference, will have cheaper "no-name' ( aftermarket ) recone kits installed into them .

- As such they'll never perform as JBL engineers intended.

- Compounding the issue is that the people who typically buy these reconed "imposters", will never know that their new aquisition doesn't perform as intended . This is because one needs to have, either a lot of experence with the item in question or test gear to compare said item to known specs .
- The sad ( & maddening ) thing here is , the disappointed buyer is then quite likely going to blame JBL & the model of woofer as a "non-performer" ( all because of their "short-sighted" buying practices ) .

- The aftermarket kit sellers ( with their mediocre parts ) are helping "devalue" the resale value of used JBL transducers .
- ie; Reference your own observation about not wanting to buy used 2204s on eBay ( due to low resale value ) . Everyone would like their investment to hold its' value .

- So my recommendation; buy bonafide JBL speakers with a known pedigree if you want them to perform correctly & to then maintain their value .

- Anyways, ( lecture over ) , I'd suggest buying a pair of "real" JBL 2204Hs or 2206Hs ( since you already have subs ) .

- 4313b is selling a pair with new kits in them ( making them essentially brand new speakers ) / that's a bona fide deal right there .

>< cheers :)

[JeffW]

I always skip right over the Ebay ads that say "Fresh Recones!". They put that out there like a source of pride, I'd personally rather have empty baskets (unless I knew the guy and could verify that they were the proper recones, like the pair of 2204H mentioned in this thread).

[originaltubino]

This JBL 12" speaker in addition to sounding good with jazz and vocals, will be asked to provide a lot of "slam" because I enjoy a bit of "extra". This doesn't mean I need it to offer 120db at 30hz. Because I have subs for that. What this means is it needs to sound good with rock and roll and jazz and some pop, all at loud volumes.
[snip]
Btw, box size doesn't matter. I can go big or small. But prefer 12" speaker due to width constraints.

You mention that this will be in an econowaveguide two-way, right?

Can you go 15" despite width constraints? You want some slam, and you want efficiency to keep up with the compression driver... make a few trips to donate plasma or whatever to come up with a little more $ and you can do this system more in line with Wayne Parham's Four Pi. I built with JBL 2226, and though it cost a bit more, I have NO REGRETS. Lotsa good clean punch in that 45-80hz range.

[tomee]

This sounds like a job for the Le14a :D
Or... if you're using a sub, how about a 10" woofer?

[Loren42]

I guess I should ask what you actually plan to do with this system. Is this for HiFi?

The Selenium is a lot of driver for HiFi, particularly if this is a small room. The SPL is at least 109 dB, but you can pad that down.

The other area of concern is the crossover frequency. The recommended minimum is 1.5 kHz. However, that lower end is probably not a good crossover point and you need to consider 2 kHz as a better target.

So, you need a woofer that can stretch to at least 2 kHz. The 2204 is 6 dB down at 1.5 kHz, so that may not be a good choice. The 2206 is at about 9 dB down, so that is worse. Same problem with the 2214 at 9+ dB down at 2 kHz.

No way do you want to consider a 3-way system. Not only will the extra drivers break your budget, but the crossover costs will kill you.

Someone recommended the 128H. That is about 4 dB down at 2 kHz and not quite 3 dB at 1.5 kHz. With a Fs of 20 Hz it would make a good woofer, but I would reconsider your Selenium. If you mated a good quality dome tweeter to the 128H that can extend below 1.5 kHz (something like the Tang 28-537SH 1-1/8" dome tweeter, but with a few more SPL) you might have a nice system with some impressive qualities.

The challenge is finding a tweeter that has a lower crossover frequency (1.5 kHz or less) and an SPL level of at least 92 dB to work with the 128H. That is not an easy thing.

You may need to go with a horn tweeter to do that, but I don't like horns for HiFi as much as I do a good dome tweeter or even a ribbon. Maybe someone here can provide better insight.

A 3-way crossover will probably set you back $300 or more for a pair. Even a 2-way is going to cost some money if you select good components. The crossover is an important element in the speaker, so don't cheap out.

The other consideration is a 2-way system is where the crossover frequency is relative to the music. A crossover at about 1 to 1.5 kHz is going to be right in the middle of the music band and care must be taken when matching drivers and building a crossover. Since the crossover frequency is in the middle any imperfections or phase issues tend to be amplified.

[BMWCCA]

The Selenium is a lot of driver for HiFi, particularly if this is a small room. It sounds like this is based on Zilch's e-wave system, most likely using his crossover-build kit and design. Pretty well-proven and accepted as an application for hi-fi use here and over on Audiogon. Or see something about it through a link to Wired in this thread: http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=25126

[Russellc]

This sounds like a job for the Le14a :D
Or... if you're using a sub, how about a 10" woofer?
That's exactly what the hottest choice is for the project the OP is refering to.


Russellc

[Russellc]

Right. The project's crossover is actually 900 hz (electrically) for the LE14A
in this project. The electrical crossover point for the 220 Ti driver and JBL wave guide is about 3,000 hz. Accoustically, the system's crossover point works out to around 1600. The LE 14A had a little "hump" near the crossover point in this setup that backing the LP crossover point down to 900 resolved.

Russellc

[testwork]

Guys, I love that LE14 suggestion! What a cool looking sub and with it's square frame it would fit in well with my plans. But I'm only finding white woofers out there and since my primary function is home theater... I already know it would drive me nuts seeing those white foofers in my face with the lights dimmed.



Loren, I appreciate your time in that well written post above. But I've already swallowed the cool-aid. I'll be going with the econowave project which already has the crossover designed and I won't be deviating from that design. :)
My room is ~3500 cu.ft. and opens to the kitchen and a stairwell.

Here's the xover info:


Crossover: Highpass filter with CD compensation for this specific driver/waveguide combination. Includes generic 1.2 kHz lowpass filter for 8-Ohm woofer, which builders should "fine tune" for the specific woofer used:

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/att...1&d=1242968714 (http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=151281&d=1242968714)

http://i40.tinypic.com/2gtdhys.jpg





You mention that this will be in an econowaveguide two-way, right?
.

Yep!



Can you go 15" despite width constraints?

I can go 15", but it would mean that the cabinet sides would be RIGHT THERE against the speaker. As in the side of each speaker would be like 1/4" from the side of the enclosures. I read somewhere this is a bad idea because it can cause resonance?



You want some slam, and you want efficiency to keep up with the compression driver... make a few trips to donate plasma or whatever to come up with a little more $ and you can do this system more in line with Wayne Parham's Four Pi. I built with JBL 2226, and though it cost a bit more, I have NO REGRETS. Lotsa good clean punch in that 45-80hz range.

Well, I already have one NIB 2226H actually. And there is a seller on the bay with six 2226H available at a good price, but in used condition. So dollar for dollar it's an easy jump. It's just the cabinet width that prevents me from getting another 2226H.

[Loren42]

If you are committed to a crossover than you must use the same drivers that the crossovers were designed for.

Crossovers are not a generic thing (despite the fact you can buy them from Parts Express).

A crossover is a custom device that does a lot more than simply select a cross over point on the frequency spectrum. It also is specific to the drivers impedance, SPL levels, and frequency response.

Simply substituting a driver based on looks or size will result in a system that will not sound the way you want it. In every cases it will be worse.

Loren


Guys, I love that LE14 suggestion! What a cool looking sub and with it's square frame it would fit in well with my plans. But I'm only finding white woofers out there and since my primary function is home theater... I already know it would drive me nuts seeing those white foofers in my face with the lights dimmed.



Loren, I appreciate your time in that well written post above. But I've already swallowed the cool-aid. I'll be going with the econowave project which already has the crossover designed and I won't be deviating from that design. :)
My room is ~3500 cu.ft. and opens to the kitchen and a stairwell.

Here's the xover info:



http://i40.tinypic.com/2gtdhys.jpg






Yep!



I can go 15", but it would mean that the cabinet sides would be RIGHT THERE against the speaker. As in the side of each speaker would be like 1/4" from the side of the enclosures. I read somewhere this is a bad idea because it can cause resonance?



Well, I already have one NIB 2226H actually. And there is a seller on the bay with six 2226H available at a good price, but in used condition. So dollar for dollar it's an easy jump. It's just the cabinet width that prevents me from getting another 2226H.

[testwork]

If you are committed to a crossover than you must use the same drivers that the crossovers were designed for.

Crossovers are not a generic thing (despite the fact you can buy them from Parts Express).

There are two crossovers that have been designed for this speaker. One for woofers capable of playing well to 1200hz and with less than 96db sensitivity. The other for woofers capable of the same but with higher sensitivity. Both designs include an L-pad.
The guys with lots of knowledge are of course tweaking to perfection. But the woofers in use are anything from a 12" Dayton Classic to a JBL 2235.

[speakerdave]

What I can't figure out is why you are asking the denizens of this forum to help you implement a set of ideas you picked up on another forum. A lot of members here don't go along entirely with that set of ideas, much as we empathize with the problems of the diyer. It seems to me that every time someone here points out the fallacies of the concepts you brought with you, you simply reassert the concepts. You're not listening!

Basically we know all about the econo thing; most of us have been there in one way or another, and if we thought it was that good we would still be doing it. We're not. We're trying to work to a higher standard, most of us. It's expensive and difficult. If you're not into that, and you have so little regard for what anyone here says, what exactly is it you expect to accomplish here?


There are two crossovers that have been designed for this speaker. One for woofers capable of playing well to 1200hz and with less than 96db sensitivity. The other for woofers capable of the same but with higher sensitivity. Both designs include an L-pad.
The guys with lots of knowledge are of course tweaking to perfection. But the woofers in use are anything from a 12" Dayton Classic to a JBL 2235.

[testwork]

Sorry, I don't remember asking you guys to design a speaker for me?

I just want to know what freakin JBL 12" woofers have what reputations.

Quit thinking so much. You're all kind of turning me off of this forum.

[MikeBrewster77]

Come out of the blue, ask for help, get the expert opinion of some truly knowledgeable folks, and then retaliate against that advice because you’ve attempted to distill a complex and nuanced science into something impossibly elementary a la 'which 12” driver should I choose' without any regard to additional engineering considerations such as enclosure, crossover, and the full driver complement.

'Which 12” JBL woofer is good?' Most of them – problem solved…

Chump don’t want no help, chump don’t get no help…

Quit thinking so little.

[speakerdave]

It's sad to see this thread take this turn, but I suppose it was not avoidable.


. . . . Quit thinking so much . . . .

In keeping with what most of us think is the best way of going about making a speaker, we cannot recommend any woofer for your particular application because we do not know what will work with those crossovers, horns and treble driver without testing them together.


. . . . Now I know why you people have such a bad reputation on other audio forums . . . .

You may have also heard that the econo thing you are working on had its start here, and its creator, an affable, energetic and enterprising fellow whom many of us like, was persuaded that it was not quite in keeping with the ideals set forth here, which are in effect the ideals of Mr. Lansing--that you do the very best you can. This is not to say that JBL has never made a down market speaker. But I do mean, that the econo thing in keeping with the JBL heritage, would be designed around one driver, one horn, one crossover, one woofer, and one cabinet. To me it is obvious that setting forth the design to be used with any woofer, basically, entails an unknown and unnecessary degree of sloppiness in thought and result. Am I saying this well enough?

I understand perfectly the intent of the project as it is designed, and I think it's a perfectly OK way for many people to go. As I said above, most of us have been there ourselves. In fact it's fine for you to discuss it on this particular subforum. It's just that you need to understand there is a certain ethos here, and you cannot expect it to go hide from you.


. . . . I just want to know what freakin JBL 12" woofers have what reputations . . . .

As for getting general information about JBL woofers: GFGI, use the search function here, look in the library here for information about certain drivers, study the way JBL has used their own drivers.

You have been given some good suggestions. I think before anyone is willing to go further with you on this, he would want to know what you find wanting in the suggestions already given.

Audio karma, Audio Asylum are apparently frequented by people who are willing to share their opinions of JBL woofers.


. . . . You're all kind of turning me off of this forum.

Sadly this sometimes seems to be a chance we have to take.

[4313B]

Now I know why you people have such a bad reputation on other audio forums.Yeah, it's really too bad that this forum was made public whereby all the nutjobs who insisted on turning it into just another audio yammerfest on the Internet could post at will. :(

Prior to Google (and the summer of 2004) people pretty well understood the title of the website - Lansing Heritage. I personally blame Google for the downhill sprial. :rotfl: Maybe these forums are due for a name change at the very least. Something more generic. I'd personally love nothing more than to see them shut down.

[yggdrasil]

I think this is enough degeneration for one topic.

Closed.