PDA

View Full Version : JBL 1400 Array system.



Doc Mark
05-13-2009, 10:19 AM
Greetings, Friends,

Another thread mentioned the advances made by JBL, shown in their 1400 Array system, compared to my earlier "dinosaur" of a JBL, the L300. I wonder if any good stereo store in So.CA might offer that 1400 system, so that I can go and listen to it for myself? For that matter, do we even HAVE any "good stereo stores" in So. CA??!! I really don't know, to tell you the truth!!

I did check them out online, and find that a pair of the 1400's retail for close to $12,000, which is a huge chunk of change for Sweet Bride and me. Also, neither of us is too crazy about the way the 1400's look. Sweet Bride said, when I showed her a photo of them on the 'net, "They look like bottles of beer"! I cracked up!! :applaud::D

In any case, and visual asthetics not withstanding, I'd love to hear a pair, sometime, to see what we're "missing". I fully expect the 1400's to be simply outstanding. But, their extended top end, of 40KHZ will most certainly be wasted on me, as my hearing will not be able to keep up. I also note that the bottom end of the 1400's is just about the same as that of our L300's, at 32HZ -3db. I'm sure that the 1400 has a tighter and more accurate bass, and well it should. But, our L300's sound "right" to me, on the bottom end, without "boom", after all my years of listening to a bass player standing right next to me. Words like "normal" and "natural" come to my mind, when listening to the bass from our L300's. I wonder if I will hear something even MORE "normal" and "natural" through the 1400's?? That would be something special, indeed, and I'd love to hear them!! Thanks for any thoughts or suggestions on how I could make that happen.

Until then, we'll just keep limping along with our L300's! ;):D Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

Titanium Dome
05-13-2009, 11:12 AM
Doc, you're not limping along at all. The other "fun" thread was a lot of chest beating for the heck of it. I just like to make sure those little nostalgia trips are kept in perspective. :p

One place you might contact to see about a possible demo is Best of Audio on Hyperion in LA. It's hit and miss what they have on the floor because they carry a ton of products, but they can get most anything and the prices are very competitive.

You know, when your L300s were new there was one price and only one price if you wanted to buy them. JBL had a strict pricing policy that couldn't be undercut or the dealer might lose the line.

Today, pricing is all over the map (ha ha, not the MAP--minimum advertised price) with even Harman competing on the bottom line. I doubt anyone would pay $12k for 1400 Arrays, though in 1978 if the L300 list was $2500 a pair, you paid $2500.

For the Array 1400s, I'd expect to pay 50–60% of list. That's still a lot of money.

If you can't find any Arrays to listen to, someday when my Synthesis® kit is up and running, you can come by to listen to my SAM1HF/SAM2LF units supported by a pair of 18" S1S-Ex subs.

Maybe I'll invite a few guys over just for the heck of it to see what everyone really thinks. I'll bet opinions will be all over the place. :applaud:

:hmm: I may expand on this idea in the Synthesis® thread.

Doc Mark
05-13-2009, 11:28 AM
Hey, TiDome,

Thank you, Sir! I got a charge and a huge smile out of that other thread, too!

I will definitely check out the place you suggested. I have an eye exam this coming Friday, in LA, and if time permits, will stop and check out Best of Audio. Thanks for the tip!

As for a visit to your place, if we're here when you schedule your "event", we'll be there with bells on, and will be happy to bring along some good wine, and some dark beer, just for grins! We've very much enjoyed a couple of get togethers with Grumpy, Todd, and Bart, and always enjoy seeing them again, and others of the JBL-ista ilk!! Please do keep us in mind, should you plan a little listening party! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

Doc Mark
05-13-2009, 11:36 AM
Hey, TD,

Can't seem to find a store on Hyperion, called "Best of Audio. Any suggestions? Thanks, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

Titanium Dome
05-13-2009, 12:03 PM
http://www.yellowpages.com/info-22377754/Best-of-Audio/maps

toddalin
05-13-2009, 01:16 PM
There is a local guy who continually sells the 1400 Arrays on C/L (as brand new), though he has no listing at the moment.

Titanium Dome
05-13-2009, 07:30 PM
There is a local guy who continually sells the 1400 Arrays on C/L (as brand new), though he has no listing at the moment.

I believe he invites auditions, too. However, I'll bet he wants a little pre-qualification beforehand.

Mr. Widget
05-13-2009, 07:39 PM
For the Array 1400s, I'd expect to pay 50–60% of list. That's still a lot of money.While I have seen "Demos" and slightly used examples discounted that much, that kind of discount is below dealer cost. Why would any dealer routinely offer that kind of deal? "Here, allow us to special order some Array 1400s for you and sell them to you for less than we paid for them." Does that make sense?

I guess these expectations also lead to fewer and fewer dealers... oh yeah, it is really hard to find anyone who stock these things... The current business practice of selling product at cost and hoping to make up for it with Monster Cable and extended warranty sales is not really doing anyone any favors. It leads to stores filled with ill informed pimply faced kids acting as salesmen. There was a time when you could easily find a dealer who knew his stuff. He helped you get the most from it, and yes, you paid his salary by buying the merchandise from him. Oh, call me sentimental. :blah:


Widget

Titanium Dome
05-13-2009, 07:56 PM
Well, I can't change the past, and you can't change the present. That's exactly why dealers are hard to find.

It's not uncommon to see these products sell at 60-66% of retail from authorized outlets. Plus, I think we both know a couple of guys who get stuff from who-knows-where who sell it below that.

Mr. Widget
05-13-2009, 08:06 PM
It's not uncommon to see these products sell at 60-66% of retail from authorized outlets.Well, you are a consummate shopper, but I can't say that I have seen them commonly sold at any price, much less at such a deep discount. I have seen them listed on Audiogon a handful of times and it seemed to me that while the discount was substantial, 60-66%?


Widget

Titanium Dome
05-13-2009, 08:44 PM
Well, you are a consummate shopper, but I can't say that I have seen them commonly sold at any price, much less at such a deep discount. I have seen them listed on Audiogon a handful of times and it seemed to me that while the discount was substantial, 60-66%?


Widget

The discount would be 34-40% to bring it to 60-66% of retail. Right now there's a nearly new pair from a dealer on A-gon for 57% of new retail, overly inflated by the seller to $14k. That must have included shipping, tax, and concierge service. ;) Granted, they're a few months old.

So, what about new? How about $4,047 each from Best of Audio? That's $47 more per unit.

Mr. Widget
05-13-2009, 11:42 PM
The discount would be 34-40% to bring it to 60-66% of retail.I misunderstood your earlier posts... I thought you were suggesting that dealers were regularly discounting them 50-60%. Still a 30-40% discount is significant... but it leaves the dealers enough in the product to pay those minimum wage salaries. :biting:

Have you found any dealers who offer them regularly, or is it a pair here a pair there kind of thing? For example would prospective buyers get to choose the finish options or are they "This is what we got." sorts of deals?


Widget

4313B
05-14-2009, 12:58 AM
They're currently backordered. I can't even buy them on Employee Purchase, they are more expensive than the yearly allotment. :rotfl:

Titanium Dome
05-14-2009, 09:06 AM
I misunderstood your earlier posts... I thought you were suggesting that dealers were regularly discounting them 50-60%. Still a 30-40% discount is significant... but it leaves the dealers enough in the product to pay those minimum wage salaries. :biting:

Have you found any dealers who offer them regularly, or is it a pair here a pair there kind of thing? For example would prospective buyers get to choose the finish options or are they "This is what we got." sorts of deals?


Widget


They're currently backordered. I can't even buy them on Employee Purchase, they are more expensive than the yearly allotment. :rotfl:

Whatever's floating around in the channel is what's available. You can have any finish you want as long as it's in someone's back room. Seems like the grey market has more stuff but it's a mongrel's mix.

I tried to buy four 800 Arrays and a center. I found lots, but no five were ever alike at the same time. I tried two Array 1400s, two 800 Arrays, and a center. I could get all of 'em, but not alike.

BTW, I could get them plus a couple of the Array subs off Harmanaudio.com for a lot less than the Synthesis® system. However, the Synthesis® Array stuff all matches (Do you want black? Good, that's the only color.) and the SAMs got great rep here from those in the know. Plus, the Synthesis® was clearly an authorized dealer purchase, so no grey worries when one S5160 showed up damaged. :yes:

They're no harder to find that my Performance Series stuff was. :banghead: (You can reread that whole thread any time. ;) ) But you are correct that I'm a determined shopper, and I get spectacular deals on all of it, and of course on the Synthesis® as well.

In my nonprofit work, I tell my staff that successful grant writing and fundraising are 90% perseverance. I guess I apply that same principle in hunting down what I want in JBLs and other gear. If you're really passionate about getting something, perseverance is your best friend.

Ducatista47
05-14-2009, 09:42 AM
In other words, JBL is making it really difficult for willing, eager customers to give their money to them. Brilliant strategy.

johnaec
05-14-2009, 11:26 AM
I think JBL should make all their speakers available in the U.S., probably via mail order. Not having a middle man would certainly help keep the consumer price down. Auditions would only be offered at JBL HQ or similar, or still let dealers stock them if people wanted closer audition options. Of course, then you'd have to consider some kind of middleman compensation.

If JBL wanted to have a return policy when buying direct without listening, I think a restocking charge of at least 30% would keep the "tire kickers" at bay.

At the minimum, though, I think JBL should look at the possibilities of a mail order channel, at least for those in the U.S. interested.

John

4313B
05-14-2009, 11:39 AM
In other words, JBL is making it really difficult for willing, eager customers to give their money to them. Brilliant strategy.Yep. G.T. and I bitched about this fact yet again this past Monday. It's a waste of time to bitch about it though. It is what it is. :(

Ralph856
05-15-2009, 04:10 AM
At the minimum, though, I think JBL should look at the possibilities of a mail order channel, at least for those in the U.S. interested.

I'm new to LH so know very little, but wonder has there been any kind of concerted effort to get Harman to do this or make it's higher-end models available in the 'west' generally? By concerted effort I mean a focused group of people acting together rather than lone individuals every now and then.



It's a waste of time to bitch about it though. It is what it is. :(


Well, I can't change the past, and you can't change the present.

Chaps, nothing's going to change with resignation, not with JBL, nor stuff in the wider world ;). Sometimes the only way to effect change is to come together and make a little noise. Just my two pence.

hjames
05-15-2009, 04:36 AM
Yep. G.T. and I bitched about this fact yet again this past Monday.
It's a waste of time to bitch about it though. It is what it is. :(


I'm new to LH so know very little, but wonder has there been any kind of concerted effort to get Harman to do this or make it's higher-end models available in the 'west' generally? By concerted effort I mean a focused group of people acting together rather than lone individuals every now and then.
.


Umm, a number of folks on the site have attempted this, specifically "4313B"
who has an "in" at Harman, and apparently, (if you read the post just before yours)
his friend G.T., (Harman's senior engineer Greg Timber, who among other things, is the
designer of a bunch of the major speaker systems many of us hold in high esteem).

You'd think they might have some clout, wouldn't ya lads?



Then again, if JBL/Harman started selling
all those spiffy Asian market speakers here,
I could buy more vintage systems cheaper ...
:applaud::applaud::applaud: Whoohoo - Music Party!

Hoerninger
05-15-2009, 04:37 AM
... any kind of concerted effort to get Harman to ... make it's higher-end models available in the 'west' generally? By concerted effort I mean a focused group of people acting together rather than lone individuals every now and then.

:applaud::applaud::applaud:
Heather, I do not want to read older posts I wanna applaud.
____________
Peter

4313B
05-15-2009, 05:52 AM
You'd think they might have some clout, wouldn't ya lads?No one should have to know anyone, it's just bad business pure and simple.

Titanium Dome
05-15-2009, 03:17 PM
I think there are two different issues.

1) Products that are available but are hard to find, such as Performance Series, Array Series, K2 Series.

2) Products that aren't available, such as Studio Monitor Series, Pro Series, Ti Series.

For the former, those who really want them can find them eventually. It probably makes little sense to have them stuffed into the retail channel in a market where even your advocates bitch about paying one or two thousand dollars for your used products, denigrate your current sub-$1000 offerings, and second guess your choices on your top models. Why have $1700 to $5000 to $13000 speakers sitting around for looky-loos who will never buy anything?

For the latter, I bet that anyone who had the money and the persistence could arrange to buy them here. Again, these models are not just going to be sitting around waiting for looky-loos to critique them, but money and persistence talks, and JBL/Harman could sell you anything it wanted to.

In both cases a simple reality check shows that there's little or no demand for these products here. Normal consumers are buying at the low end, and the so-called aficionadoes are buying used gear and/or bitching about current products and prices.

If any and all of these models were readily available in the US, would anyone here on LH buy them? No. Even if one or two of us would actually step up and put their money where their mouth is, that's still a pretty small market. I'm not even a good example inasmuch as I'm always working to pay far below retail for the new stuff I buy. ;)

Mr. Widget
05-15-2009, 08:22 PM
If any and all of these models were readily available in the US, would anyone here on LH buy them? No. Even if one or two of us would actually step up and put their money where their mouth is, that's still a pretty small market. I'm not even a good example inasmuch as I'm always working to pay far below retail for the new stuff I buy. ;)Then again this month's Stereophile has a picture on the cover and a review of a $20K a pair of Klipsch speakers.:blink: Not sure where you would go to buy them, but Klipsch is still run more like the old JBL... if you poke around on their factory sponsored forum you can find examples of the company helping people get special Klipsch product that isn't really manufactured and the like.

Even though I admire PWK as much as JBL (the man) and I really am fond of the Klipsch Heritage in much the same way I feel about JBL's, I'd bet the Array 1400s at $12K retail would outshine the $20K Klipsches in most respects... can't compete with that 95dB sensitivity though.

Widget

BMWCCA
06-08-2009, 02:24 PM
An auction now running with several days left. Minimum bid is roughly twice as high as the last pair of 1400 Arrays sold for on Audiogon. And I should know since I was in contact with that seller but had too many doubts to pull the trigger at the time. Anyway, this seller's reason for selling after owning them for one week will bring a smile to your face.
http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/auc.pl?spkrfull&1244942034 (No bids yet at $7100, but no reserve, either.)

Suffice it to say GT and the JBL boys should never under-estimate the lunacy of their potential audience. :D

Oh what the heck, for posterity:
I picked up these speakers from a certified JBL dealer on 05/28/2009. What sold me on these JBL’s was the amazing bass extension and dynamics. Overall I would say these speakers are very nice sounding (timber, balance, air, sound stage) but the low end and dynamics are just stunning. I heard in the dealers auditioning room. Which was ok and since I have a really good dedicated listening room at home I knew it would only get better. After moving my current speakers Focal 1027 be’s, (that have wonderful everything except low end) I wanted to do some A/B comparisons. Listening to the JBL’s I was right they sounded great in my listening room. Then after moving my Focal’s to a new location - I put the JBL’s where the Focal’s were and moved the Focal’s away from back wall and to the outside - I did some listening to the Focal’s. What in the world, the Focal’s were now kicking my but in the low end. After doing to research and more listening I found that I had the Focal’s positioned wrong. Now that I have optimized the Focal’s they are not lacking any low end and I am happy with them. Unfortunately, when I went to return the JBL’s the dealer said he would not take them back. Hence, I am now the owner of a set of JBL 1400 Array’s that I no longer need as my old speakers are not lacking what I thought they were, they just needed a new position in my listening room. As I have no need for the JBL’s as the reason I purchased them is taken care of and the dealer will not take them back I am looking to sell them for less then I paid for them. Please note these were demo’s in the dealer show room for a few months and then in my listening room for a week. They are in excellent condition with 0 marks and all: boxes, manuals, etc.

. . . and check out the surfaces in his "really good dedicated listening room"!

Titanium Dome
06-08-2009, 09:02 PM
The speakers are beautiful. :yes:

As for the room, he's got some of those foam wedges in the corners, so it must kick ass in there.

Why oh why did I blow $1500+ on stupid acoustical panels and several hundred more on dumb diffusers when I could have glued some open cell foam in the corners and called it a day? :banghead:


An auction now running with several days left. Minimum bid is roughly twice as high as the last pair of 1400 Arrays sold for on Audiogon. And I should know since I was in contact with that seller but had too many doubts to pull the trigger at the time. Anyway, this seller's reason for selling after owning them for one week will bring a smile to your face.
http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/auc.pl?spkrfull&1244942034 (No bids yet at $7100, but no reserve, either.)

Suffice it to say GT and the JBL boys should never under-estimate the lunacy of their potential audience. :D

Oh what the heck, for posterity:

. . . and check out the surfaces in his "really good dedicated listening room"!

MikeBrewster77
06-09-2009, 06:34 AM
Why oh why did I blow $1500+ on stupid acoustical panels and several hundred more on dumb diffusers when I could have glued some open cell foam in the corners and called it a day? :banghead:

Perfectionist! :rolleyes:

Egg crates work for me - lots and lots o' egg crates aesthetics be damned! :D

Ralph856
06-10-2009, 11:03 AM
Perfectionist! :rolleyes:

Egg crates work for me - lots and lots o' egg crates aesthetics be damned! :D


you clearly chickened out..:p

MikeBrewster77
06-10-2009, 11:19 AM
you clearly chickened out..:p

:rotfl:

(I just want to go on record as saying I dont really have egg crates lining my walls :rolleyes:)

hjames
06-10-2009, 11:20 AM
you clearly chickened out..:p
eggsactly!

Titanium Dome
06-10-2009, 12:21 PM
can't compete with that 95dB sensitivity though.

Widget

The SAM2LF is rated at 92dB sensitivity, the SAM1HF is rated at 98db sensitivity, and the S1S-EX is rated at 97dB sensitivity. That's pretty competitive. ;)

It must be the LE14H-3 that drags the figure down in the 1400 Array.

4313B
06-10-2009, 02:17 PM
The SAM2LF is rated at 92dB sensitivity, the SAM1HF is rated at 98db sensitivity, and the S1S-EX is rated at 97dB sensitivity. That's pretty competitive. ;)

It must be the LE14H-3 that drags the figure down in the 1400 Array.It's a nice stiff, heavy cone, the last of the old school drivers.

The LE14H-4 gains a few dB of efficiency at the expense of the bottom octave and a half.

I'd sure like to see some side and rear shots of one of those Synthesis 8 drivers.