How much longer before JBL runs dry in US?

[Vintage Spk]

Dumb question here…what makes older model JBL so cool to have?
History, build and sound quality? If so why JBL has zero presence in US consumer market if other brand can excel in mid. and high-end category still?

How long can US diehards sustain the brand name in secondhand market before all complete older speaker sets diminish, and replace components run dry…people in US does not even recognize JBL as US based corporation. Foreign $$$ that much better than local $$$? Even locals can’t find/buy local.

[Cooljjay]

Dumb question here…what makes older model JBL so cool to have?

Well I love older audio, I just happened to come across a old set of jbls, I must admit they sound awesome, and I am hooked.

people in US does not even recognize JBL as US based corporation. Foreign $$$ that much better than local $$$? Even locals can’t find/buy local.

I agree with that most all of our vintage audio is going over sea's not much is left in the us, but this could be said for most things. I am the only one I know of in my generation that collects vintage audio, what happens when the older crowd passes and theres no young people interested in this stuff? Its possible that the market will just die off and there will be no $$$ for any of it. But for now the prices keep going up. I would love to make my pair matching but I could never afford the prices at this moment. Whats the future hold for vintage audio???

[brad347]

Here is my opinion about what makes JBL so good to have:

The eras of older JBL represent something that I like in a product--

It seems like at one point in history, companies tried to out-sell their competition by out-performing them. In other words, the attitude was "We will always build the best product there is--we will best our competition fair-and-square and we will thrive." There was trust in the consumer and a faith that they would be willing to pay for quality. The lower-end products in their range were not lower in build quality and construction than the high-end models, typically-- they rather were more limited in their performance and flexibility. "You get what you pay for," honestly, of course.

It seems that at some point in history-- the late 1960s seem to be when the tide started to turn in a lot of areas-- the prevailing ethos changed to a more cynical attitude toward the consumer.

Companies started trying to out-sell their competition not by offering superior products, but rather by offering comparable products for lower cost, with greater convenience, and in smaller packages.

Instead of "make it better," companies decided to "make it cheaper." They started looking for ways they could compromise the product with the attitude of either "the consumer won't know the difference," or "the consumer will choose a product with 80% of the performance of the best if it comes at 50% the cost" or "if it is 20% smaller in size." This included printed circuit board construction, lower-cost components, outsourced manufacturing, product re-tooling to allow for cheaper unskilled labor or small size, etc.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm sure there were always "bargain" products, but it seems that at some point this attitude started to spill over into even the supposedly "good" products. And I can respect a product with a good price/performance ratio, and appreciate that it has brought unprecedented levels of performance to people who wouldn't have otherwise been able to attin it. But I lament the fact that this paradigm has made the "high-end" market in many areas into a "boutique" sector subject to all kinds of hype, overcharging, etc. And, not least, the assumption that the high-end consumer will be wealthy (I am far, far from it).

Vintage JBL is appealing to me because it is one of those old companies that tried to make it better as opposed to making it cheaper. And they did it for a long time, too... the JBL name has been watered down a bit in the consumer market in the last few decades, maybe, but at least well into the 1970s and maybe even 1980s ALL of the stuff JBL offered was high quality, regardless of its price range. The stuff was made with care and is of the highest quality, and they did actual R&D to improve and advance their product, not just to find ways to make it smaller, cheaper, more convenient. Quality never goes out of style, and a lot of that old JBL stuff outperforms most of the stuff on the market today in similar price ranges, in my opinion (though I am far from an audiophile expert).

The old JBL stuff strikes me not as something you had to be part of a special elite club to buy-- you just had to value quality and be willing to pay for it, whether you were flush with cash or were just a regular guy who had to save up for months to get it. I like that. There's not a ton of that left.

JBL reminds me of old Fender guitars pre-1965, old Neve recording consoles pre-buyout, Moog synthesizers pre-Norlin, Blue Note Records pre-1968, etc.

The vision of one man or a few men dedicated to quality and who loved what they were producing without cynicism-- and who actually took pride in offering the highest quality with a very real brand identity..

And that segues nicely... I believe as long as there are people who appreciate vintage JBL, they will not 'dry up.' They might get more expensive, but the interest will keep them in the spotlight. Witness Fender guitars... how many of those were parted out, modded, etc. in the 1980s and 1990s? And they are still being parted out today. However, they are still turning up under beds and in basements, are worth more than ever, etc.

And the fact that the demand outstrips the supply means that people are digging up the parts from those hacked-up and parted-out guitars and repairing/restoring them because their value now justifies the expense.

[Doc Mark]

Morning, Brad,

Well said, Sir, and spot on the money!!! Couldn't agree more!! I remember, back when I first joined the Musician's Union, as a young musician: If you had a Union card, you got a 10% discount at music stores for equipment, rentals, and such, including JBL. If you were not a working, professionial musician, you paid full retail price, with NO discounts, PERIOD!! Nobody complained about this setup, as it seemed normal and natural. Back then, when you paid your money, you bought things from people who were experienced, and who had the proper knowledge to help educate you about what you were buying. You also got cheerful service after the sale. Fast forward to today: Everyone whores out their products, which they have made as cheaply as possible, for the lowest possible price: quality is a thing of the past; knowledgable sales people are a thing of the past; product longevity is a thing of the past..... Have we gotten better, or far worse? I guess you know where I come down on that question!!

Without doubt, the JBL Legacy systems, and associated systems, are better than most of what anyone has in their homes these days, period!! The quality is better, the result is better, and the longevity is OBVIOUSLY better!! Yesterday, whilst listening to some great music on our L300's, I asked my wife, "Hon, do we know anyone who has such a fine system in their homes"? To which she replied, "Nobody by our JBL friends"!! "Nuff said, right?!!

Again, well said, my Friend!! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[robertbartsch]

I would have to say vintage JBL systems are inferior to the current JBL professional offerings.

They are looked upon as iconic masterpieces but recent advaces in technology have resulted in significant improvements which are largely ignored by folks visiting this cite.

Example: Compare an older L300 to a two-way system of 2226 and 2426 and see for yourself.

[Tom Brennan]

Well I was recently in the market for new speakers and willing to spend a little too. JBL has so many lines that one wonders which ones JBL themselves considers really good. They have such a confusing mish-mosh of product, much of it trashy and kubuki appearing, that I never even considered new JBLs.

Now I'm a guy with some knowledge of JBL and who has owned a fair amount of JBL gear and if I wasn't considering JBL one wonders who is.

.

[4313B]

I would have to say vintage JBL systems are inferior to the current JBL professional offerings.

They are looked upon as iconic masterpieces but recent advaces in technology have resulted in significant improvements which are largely ignored by folks visiting this cite.

Example: Compare an older L300 to a two-way system of 2226 and 2426 and see for yourself.This is true but the beauty is that something as ancient as an L300 is still "better" than most of the "stuff" being currently offered in the marketplace today regardless of what advances their respective manufacturers might have made. JBL is also a lifestyle for alot of people.

It could be interesting to see someone LEAP a new network for an old L300 system. There's just never enough time...

[Akira]

I would have to say vintage JBL systems are inferior to the current JBL professional offerings.
Example: Compare an older L300 to a two-way system of 2226 and 2426 and see for yourself.
What are you comparing? A compression driver to a speaker?
Yes, I agree that the elite systems of today benefit from 40 years of technology? And certainly drivers of all types have also benefited.

But, the old 2441 was a mighty fine driver and has nothing to be ashamed of even compared to the more advanced drivers of today. Better, probably not but still excellent.
Remember, the old legacy systems had a certain sound. They suited the fine master pieces of music production of that period in time. I know my original L100's sounded better with the same era Harmon Kardon Citation preamp/amp combo than the newest Brystons out there today even though they are better in the specs department.

By extension, does an 8100 series Neve console sound inferior to the top consoles of today? Well it can certainly be out oerformed....40 years of technology it does not have the benefit of.

[4313B]

Yes, I agree that the elite systems of today benefit from 40 years of technology? And certainly drivers of all types have also benefited.And one pays the price. The current L300 Summit "equivalent" would probably be the S4800 and the current S22 "equivalent" would arguably be the K2-S9900. 4333B => 4338, etc.

[MikeBrewster77]

Well I was recently in the market for new speakers and willing to spend a little too... I never even considered new JBLs.

I hear ya - just went through a very similiar situation. Not that I didn't consider JBL (to the contrary, I lusted after several different possibilities, specifically the LS series) but the lack of domestic availability killed that idea. Worse yet, I'm not convinced that what I did purchase (while lovely speakers) sound any better in my listening environment and coupled with my gear than the Control 10's they were intended to replace. I'm actually contemplating re-selling them after about a month :(.


Now I'm a guy with some knowledge of JBL and who has owned a fair amount of JBL gear and if I wasn't considering JBL one wonders who is.

The Japanese, but then again, they get the good shit (like the aforementioned LS series) and it's readily available and carried in retail outlets. The rest of us are screwed because Harman is apparently quite content getting 70% of their revenue from the automotive segment.


I would have to say vintage JBL systems are inferior to the current JBL professional offerings.

I'd have to agree that in many cases this is likely so (and really should be.) The Control 10's I mentioned earlier (discontinued, but hardly a heritage system) sound better than many of the vintage JBL's I've heard. Then again, side by side I personally prefer my Control 5's to my L46's for presence and accuracy; the L46's however have a distinctive sound that I would describe as extremely pleasant, if not unyieldingly accurate. In short, while vintage JBL still beats a whole lot of what's produced today, I would certainly hope that 30+ years of R&D would produce a superior product ;)

In terms of affinity for vintage, that can likely be chalked up to nostalgia, aesthetics, availability, brand loyalty, superior ROI than comparably priced new gear, preference for a certain "type" of sound, and any other myriad of personal factors that drive individual tastes.

[Akira]

It could be interesting to see someone LEAP a new network for an old L300 system. There's just never enough time...
Yes, I think this is one area that is superior today.
Drivers too are better.
But as the old JBL literature used to say, "a speaker is more than the sun of it's parts."
Perhaps the question should be is, how much better are speaker systems today.
I haven't heard the new offerings from Westlake, but the old ones could give anything on the market today a run for the money.

[robertbartsch]

Well, after owning many JBL vintage and professional series systems over the years, I kinda chucle at folks spending big bucks for vintage equipment.

Yeh, they are still very capable systems 40 years or so after their manufacture, but, for the most part, I fail to see the value in these transactions.

I thought the recent deep economic recession would impact vintage prices but, so far, this does not seem to be the case. In many cases, these systems must be evaluated based on a crude picture and the words of sellers. Obviously, after being burned a few times on E-bay, I am somewhat reluctant to purchase there - knowing that my chances with relatively new professional series drivers will, typically be much better.

[brad347]

I think it's dicey to say vintage JBLs are "inferior" to the new offerings.

It depends on what you mean by "inferior."

Do you mean "less accurate?" Okay, fair enough. Less transparent? Less linear? less whatever? Fine.

But for JBLs that I use to listen to music at home, the only thing I care about is "How pleasing are they to listen to?" And I find the old JBLs have a certain sound, a certain character, that I find appealing when listening-- especially when listening to certain types or eras of music.

I would say it depends upon your application. If you are listening for pleasure, a bit of euphony/flattery and character might be welcome. If you are monitoring in a studio, you probably want accuracy and honesty.

I have studio monitors in my home studio, I frequently use other, nicer studio monitors in various locations, and I have a set of vintage JBLs in my living room for pleasure-listening.

Apples and oranges, in my world. The monitors are more "accurate" and objectively "outperform" the JBLs in many respects-- but I enjoy the JBLs more for pleasure listening.

I seem to remember reading that part of the ethos of "old JBL" was to not get so caught up in numbers and spectrum analysis, and instead to focus on how the speakers sounded-- the ear test. Well, after all this time, many of those old speakers still pass the "ear test" to me even if there are others (including modern JBLs, with which I have admittedly limited experience) that pass the "math test" better.

Different strokes, I guess! :)

[hjames]

Lemme see - both of the big systems I bought were in-person buys - I drove there with a truck and cash for a possible sale.
If I didn't like the look, the feel, the sound of the systems, they would not have happened.
Even my recent L100T deal was a drive by purchase ...

Do people really buy L300s or 434x Monitors based on some unknown seller's word?
Often?

The eBay stuff I buy is generally under $250, paid with a VISA card so I can reverse the charge if the seller tries to burn me ... out of 250 deals, only 3 have ...

The newest speakers I owned were L820CH-H I bought from Harmon Direct - thought they'd be a worthy upgrade from the L20T in the back of my room ... didn't care for the plastic wood look, the sound was nothing special, resold them about a month later and didn't look back.


Well, after owning many JBL vintage and professional series systems over the years, I kinda chuckle at folks spending big bucks for vintage equipment.

Yeh, they are still very capable systems 40 years or so after their manufacture, but, for the most part, I fail to see the value in these transactions.

[mike]

After years of messing around with this stuff I have made an observation, the older JBL stuff was simply put a different type of product. I realize that technology has improved and they can now make very inexpensive speakers that measure well and do all of the audiophile tricks even better than the old stuff, but much of the appeal of the older JBL stuff was in owning something of very high quality. I remember reading a review of the L300 in an old magazine that said "like all JBL loudspeakers the L300 is as much a work of art as it is a loudspeaker".

Mike

[toddalin]

I would have to say vintage JBL systems are inferior to the current JBL professional offerings.

They are looked upon as iconic masterpieces but recent advaces in technology have resulted in significant improvements which are largely ignored by folks visiting this cite.

Example: Compare an older L300 to a two-way system of 2226 and 2426 and see for yourself.

Would this be a fair comparison of what you mean? Note that the L200/300s use all AlNiCo components whereas the 4430s are all ferrite.
http://www.largescaleonline.com/eimages/lsolpics/Team_Member_Pics/toddalin/Revised_L200_v4430.jpg

While the 4430s image better, to me the L200/300s have a more pleasing sound with more natural, intelligable vocals.

Anyone is welcome to come over and hear the differences for themselves. ;)

[Doc Mark]

Greetings, Friends,

Some great comments have been made, and are right on the mark. Whilst I love our L300's, I am under NO illusion that the SOTA JBL systems of today won't blow our L300's out of the water!! BUT, I made the statement that I did, meaning our L300's are head and shoulders above what MOST folks listen to at home, these days. I stand by that statement, with no qualms, or reservations, whatsoever.

Now, I'm not talking about the true "audiophiles" out there, who have sought out the best of the best, and spent the coin to buy it. I'm talking about your next door neighbors, friends, and families. Besides other folks that love JBL, both new and old, I don't KNOW anyone who has a nicer system than do we!! It's a simple fact, and absolutely true. So, in that sense, our 40+ year old JBL L300's are absolutely better than most of what everyone else is listening to today. Can't argue with that can you??!! I certainly can't.

Now, you may not prefer the sound of L300's, or any of the older Legacy systems from JBL. And, maybe you do prefer the sound of the newest JBL systems, because of their obvious advances in technology since our L300's were SOTA. That's absolutely cool! I'd love to own a pair of the newest, latest-greatest JBL systems. But, it is NOT going to happen, as I cannot afford them. It's that simple.

As a completely serendiptitous and unsolicited support for what I mean by all this, something really neat happened today when we were having a new washer and dryer delivered and installed. Whilst I was down in the Hobbit Hole, working with the two guys that were installing our new laundry goodies, I had some good classical music playing upstairs on the L300's. One of the guys, after listening for a while, told me, "Your wife is a very good piano player". To which I replied, "Actually, she doesn't play piano, at all, and we don't own one". He just looked at me, head cocked to the side, brows knit in silent question, still hearing what he thought was a real piano being played upstairs!!!! I explained that what he was hearing was our stereo! He looked at me, with absolute and total admiration in his eyes, and simply and softly said, "Wow"!!! I think that simple "blind" test pretty much supports my thoughts on this, and most certainly are valid for that nice fellow who had never heard such a wonderful system in a home before, and mistook the L300's for "the real thing"! He could not have paid a finer or more sincere compliment to our L300's, to JBL, and to Greg Timbers, who originally designed our speakers, as well as other fine legacy systems and some of JBL's finest systems today!!! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[KT88Lover]

Well, after owning many JBL vintage and professional series systems over the years, I kinda chucle at folks spending big bucks for vintage equipment.

Yeh, they are still very capable systems 40 years or so after their manufacture, but, for the most part, I fail to see the value in these transactions.

I thought the recent deep economic recession would impact vintage prices but, so far, this does not seem to be the case. In many cases, these systems must be evaluated based on a crude picture and the words of sellers. Obviously, after being burned a few times on E-bay, I am somewhat reluctant to purchase there - knowing that my chances with relatively new professional series drivers will, typically be much better.

You sure seem to love painting with a broad brush.

Pal, you need to remember who brung ya to this dance in the first place; and they did most of the ground work with slide rules and their imaginations.

On the shoulders of giants.

Some of us are willing to pay a premium for this; progenitors of a quality and euphony fast disappearing. Sorry you have so little passion for the aesthetic, history and the legacy of this heritage.

Different place, different time, different goals but without it, we would have never made it to where we are today.

"Better"? I don't know.

Right.

It'll always have a place in my heart (and my living room).

Jim

[Doc Mark]

Hey, Jim,

You said it, my Friend! Well done!! :applaud::applaud: Thanks for that extra sharp bit of clarity! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[KT88Lover]

Greetings, Friends,

Some great comments have been made, and are right on the mark. Whilst I love our L300's, I am under NO illusion that the SOTA JBL systems of today won't blow our L300's out of the water!! BUT, I made the statement that I did, meaning our L300's are head and shoulders above what MOST folks listen to at home, these days. I stand by that statement, with no qualms, or reservations, whatsoever.

Now, I'm not talking about the true "audiophiles" out there, who have sought out the best of the best, and spent the coin to buy it. I'm talking about your next door neighbors, friends, and families. Besides other folks that love JBL, both new and old, I don't KNOW anyone who has a nicer system than do we!! It's a simple fact, and absolutely true. So, in that sense, our 40+ year old JBL L300's are absolutely better than most of what everyone else is listening to today. Can't argue with that can you??!! I certainly can't.

Now, you may not prefer the sound of L300's, or any of the older Legacy systems from JBL. And, maybe you do prefer the sound of the newest JBL systems, because of their obvious advances in technology since our L300's were SOTA. That's absolutely cool! I'd love to own a pair of the newest, latest-greatest JBL systems. But, it is NOT going to happen, as I cannot afford them. It's that simple.

As a completely serendiptitous and unsolicited support for what I mean by all this, something really neat happened today when we were having a new washer and dryer delivered and installed. Whilst I was down in the Hobbit Hole, working with the two guys that were installing our new laundry goodies, I had some good classical music playing upstairs on the L300's. One of the guys, after listening for a while, told me, "Your wife is a very good piano player". To which I replied, "Actually, she doesn't play piano, at all, and we don't own one". He just looked at me, head cocked to the side, brows knit in silent question, still hearing what he thought was a real piano being played upstairs!!!! I explained that what he was hearing was our stereo! He looked at me, with absolute and total admiration in his eyes, and simply and softly said, "Wow"!!! I think that simple "blind" test pretty much supports my thoughts on this, and most certainly are valid for that nice fellow who had never heard such a wonderful system in a home before, and mistook the L300's for "the real thing"! He could not have paid a finer or more sincere compliment to our L300's, to JBL, and to Greg Timbers, who originally designed our speakers, as well as other fine legacy systems and some of JBL's finest systems today!!! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc


And was not that the goal from the very beginning?

Enjoy! (wish I had some L300s)

Jim

[Doc Mark]

Hi, All,

Heather also smacked one out of the park, in her earlier comments on auditioning the legacy systems she owns, and also having bought a "new" JBL system, unheard, which ended up not filling the bill.

Like Heather, and many others of our JBL Friends here at LH, we first heard about our L300's from an LH Friend, Regis, who offered them for sale here. He remembered that I was "goggy" over the first L300's I'd heard, back in the day, and sent me a note, asking if I might be interested in buying his. I told him that, whilst I was definitely interested, I probably could not afford them. He and I stayed in contact, and in the end, Sweet Bride and I drove up to the High Desert to meet Regis in the flesh, and to audition his L300's.

On the way up there, we stopped at the bank, and withdrew the necessary funds, just in case we loved those L300's, and hoping that Regis would negotiate his price a bit.

In the end, after more than a little listening, and a bit of honest negotiation with Regis, who we found to be fair and a good man, Sweet Bride and I traded our coin for his L300's, and happily loaded them into our Jeep and made our way back up to our mountain home! Once we got them here, with some minor tweaking, they sounded even better than they had at Regis' place!! To us, they are VERY natural, VERY normal, and completely without those harsh sounds that cause ear fatigue. We listen to them for hours and hours on end, and never feel that we have to stop for a bit to rest our ears. To us, the proof was in the pudding, so to speak!

We would NEVER have bought them, if we hadn't been able to hear them in person, with music that we brought to enjoy. It's as simple as that. I've bought some JBL's on FleaBay since then, but they only cost me around $66, so I was willing to take a chance. For the big money systems, either I would audition that system, or keep on walking away, period!

Good point, Heather, and well stated! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[brad347]

I only wish I could afford some L-300s. :o:

But for the meantime, I'm having pretty good fun making do with the L-65A Jubals I scored for 50 bucks last summer.

From what I can gather they are seen as sort of the "entry level" to the "real" vintage JBLs, but I enjoy them.

Maybe one day we will be able to justify the expense of some L300s, but who knows. I'm eking out a living as a creative musician in a culture that doesn't place much value on that, these days! :D

[Doc Mark]

I only wish I could afford some L-300s. :o:

But for the meantime, I'm having pretty good fun making do with the L-65A Jubals I scored for 50 bucks last summer.

From what I can gather they are seen as sort of the "entry level" to the "real" vintage JBLs, but I enjoy them.

Maybe one day we will be able to justify the expense of some L300s, but who knows. I'm eking out a living as a creative musician in a culture that doesn't place much value on that, these days! :D

Hey, Brad.

Took a little break from work, and wanted to send a few comments your way, if I may. First, it's cool that you are a working musician! I did that for almost 30 years, and aside from the usual bad things that can happen to you, if you're not careful (which did NOT happen to me, by the way!;)), I loved doing that! I was always amazed that someone would actually PAY me, to do something I would have gladly done for free!! What type of music do you play? What instruments? Do you sing? Again, neat that you play!

As to your L65A's, that was another JBL after which I lusted, big time!! Still might grab a nice pair, if they came my way for the right price. I'd say that your price was way beyond "NICE", and borders on "gift"!! Outstanding!! I have always thought that the L65's sounded like a sort of "mini-L300", and the only time I ever heard a pair that I didn't like, was when a certain salesman was driving them waaaayyyyy past their ability to keep up, and the poor woofers were slapping and slamming and bottoming out, like there was no tomorrow! I wanted to smack that stupid moron in the head with a 2x4 and just pack up those L65's and take them home, just to get them away from his stupid monkey hands!!! Darned fool!!:biting::banghead:

But, I still think that L65's are wonderful speakers, and you, very obviously, did EXTREMELY well in picking up yours!!! Well done, and congrats on scoring another of my JBL favorites!! Maybe a nice pair of L300's will come your way someday, or maybe not. But, in any case, you already own a fantastic set of JBL Legacy speakers, and that's really something of which you can be very proud!! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[brad347]

Thanks a lot, Doc! Yeah, the L-65s were a borderline "gift" alright. My wife and I drove to Fredericksburg, VA from Paterson, NJ to pick them up from a nice lady who had posted them on a craigslist ad. We stayed a night in a nice hotel and made a mini-vacation out of it because it was such a good deal. The lady was almost apologizing for them because one of the woofers needed re-foaming. She was surprised I didn't try to talk her down, and stunned that I would drive all the way from NJ for them. I said "well, they're worth a bit more than you're asking," and she was like "great! I just want them gone!"

The pair even had the original envelope with manuals, warranty cards, furniture care tips, etc. :D

Needless to say, that was a good day, and she was nice to hold them for me until I could drive down there.

I enjoy them very much. I have seen some people on internet fora turn up their nose at them for serious listening, but they suit me just fine. :)

At least until the $100 pair of L300s come along! :D

PM on the way, also.

[robertbartsch]

I have several vintage systems and some new professional stuff too so it is not accurate to say that I don't appreciate the vintage stuff. ...actually, I enjoy the old vintage systems very much.

I beleive the sonic qualities of the new professional stuff is superior, however.

It is all subjective, I suppose.

[Akira]

I have several vintage systems and some new professional stuff too so it is not accurate to say that I don't appreciate the vintage stuff. ...actually, I enjoy the old vintage systems very much.

I beleive the sonic qualities of the new professional stuff is superior, however.

But, brad347 said it best...

The only thing I care about is "How pleasing are they to listen to?" And I find the old JBLs have a certain sound, a certain character, that I find appealing when listening-- especially when listening to certain types or eras of music.


A friend of mine who used to be a stereo salesman in the 'glory days' once told me a story about the ancient (even back then) Klipsch speakers--the ones that fit into the corner. I said I never liked them. He said, "I thought the same thing. We tried every single amp and preamp on them trying to make them sound good so someone would buy them. We tried Brystons and Thereshold and Crown. Then one day we hooked up a 25wps tube amp and the damn things came to life. You wouldn't beleive...a thing of beauty...It was all there."

Moral of the story? I suppose everything well designed has it's place and time and application...Or as Paul Klipsch said, "ho, hummm...another ground breaking technological discovery."

That's why they call it audio.
That's why people spend $3,000. on magic wire.
That's why LH exists and we are all here.

[KT88Lover]

I have several vintage systems and some new professional stuff too so it is not accurate to say that I don't appreciate the vintage stuff. ...actually, I enjoy the old vintage systems very much.

I beleive the sonic qualities of the new professional stuff is superior, however.

It is all subjective, I suppose.


That's not what I said, fair or otherwise.

Jim

[KT88Lover]

I have several vintage systems and some new professional stuff too so it is not accurate to say that I don't appreciate the vintage stuff. ...actually, I enjoy the old vintage systems very much.

I beleive the sonic qualities of the new professional stuff is superior, however.

It is all subjective, I suppose.


THIS is what you said:
"Yeh, they are still very capable systems 40 years or so after their manufacture, but, for the most part, I fail to see the value in these transactions."

[KT88Lover]

Well, after owning many JBL vintage and professional series systems over the years, I kinda chucle at folks spending big bucks for vintage equipment.

Yeh, they are still very capable systems 40 years or so after their manufacture, but, for the most part, I fail to see the value in these transactions.

I thought the recent deep economic recession would impact vintage prices but, so far, this does not seem to be the case. In many cases, these systems must be evaluated based on a crude picture and the words of sellers. Obviously, after being burned a few times on E-bay, I am somewhat reluctant to purchase there - knowing that my chances with relatively new professional series drivers will, typically be much better.


Pretty condescending tone as well, at least to MY ears.

Since you are a forward thinking man that has a deep and abiding appreciation for modern, cutting edge electronic technology, try learning to use or engage "SPELL CHECK", after you're done "chucling".

I might take your comments a bit more seriously.

Jim

[Titanium Dome]

It is all subjective, I suppose.

Well, no it's not. Stick to your darn guns. You were right in the first place to write that today's gear is better by almost any measure, subjective or objective. It's just that people can't figure out the correct economic relationships, and they love to compare things using simplistic equations and sentimental values.

Believe me, I'm as sentimental as the next geezer, but my brain can still tell the difference between my beloved 39-year-old L100s (and the mint second pair I bought recently) and a PT800. I love the L100, but the PT800 is a better speaker in every way, including the cabinet. Yes, I know someone will pine for real walnut veneer (there's a mixed lumber analogy :) ), but I don't. What I want is a better speaker.

I suppose I could put a coat of duPont Imron® on my 1989 Chrysler's TC by Maserati, but that wouldn't make it a better car than my GF's Chrysler Crossfire, anymore than frickin' wood veneer makes one speaker better than another.

That L100 was $273. In todays dollars it would be $1498, in the ballpark with a PT800. (Much more than I paid for any of my PT800s, BTW.) Anyone want to bet which is both an objectively and subjectively better speaker? I own four original, in line L100s, and I still own ten PT800s even after selling eight of them. Wood veneer cabinet and 12" woofer notwithstanding, the L100 sucks butt fumes compared to the PT800. I still love the L100, but come on, I have no illusions about it.

Talk about horns? Okay. Let's look at a real value leader and great speaker, the L300. The L300 was $1250 in 1981. In today's money it would be about $4100. That's $800 more than a 1000 Array and $200 less than a 1400 Array. Now which would be the better speaker?

There's no comparison on the top end, as either Array is a quantum leap beyond the L300. The 1000 Array will not quite have the bottom boom of the L300, but the 1400 Array will subdue it and make it cry with real, honest-to-goodness LF. The Array cabinets, crossovers, and components shame the L300. They shame it.

Or let's go one further and consider the SAM1HF and SAM2LF for about $3000 combined and a JBL S2S sub for about $4300 altogether. Pretty? Maybe not. But so much better than the L300 as to be laughable in any imaginable application.

Please don't get me wrong. The L300 is a great speaker. It's an iconic speaker. If you like wood veneers on boxes with square edges, if you associate good sound with colored, vintage electronics, if your definition of "good sound" is in keeping with your nostalgic view of a past golden age, then I think that's great. Just don't confuse that with the pinnacle of achievement in sound reproduction or mistake it for a mystical, magical past in which quality was king and perfection was the nearly achieved goal. You're romanticizing about a bygone era of great products whose time has come and gone and whose value has appreciated with the times but fallen far behind the rate of inflation AND the rate of product improvement.

If what you want is pretty, then admit you want pretty. if what you want is big, then admit you want big. But don't try to fool me by equating pretty and/or big with better.

The fact that we can get this vintage gear for about the same prices as originally charged (or sometimes less) is a testament to their value, but it is not a testament to their quality compared to todays products.

If JBL has a problem in today's market, it's that once you get past the Studio L Series, their stuff is too good for the mass market, and typical Americans won't buy it. Hell, as long as a no-name or ID speaker's got some cheap weed-wood from China that's stained to look like American timber, and it's built by $12-a-week labor that's indentured to a factory employing 25,000 workers, your typical American is whining "Why can't JBL produce a speaker that looks like this and sells for $200?"

Well, the reason is that they're still engineering and innovating while too may others pull stuff from the parts bin and subcontract driver design, cabinets, networks and everything else to the cheapest bidder to drive down costs. This is something Harman/JBL has resorted to in the entry level in the past couple of decades, but the legacy still flourishes further up the line. Who's buying? Not too many here, I think. Everybody wants a deal; no one wants to pay for the advancement of the art.

Ah, well, I've gone on far too long. I shouldn't have waited to finish this until after I had two Long Island iced Teas.

Ready. :flamed:

[BROCKWOOD]

So much of what has been "so right" about really good products from days
gone by is now outlawed, too expensive or dismissed as obsolete. The real
wood veneer on some of the cabinets I see here is stunning. The fact
that the cones & voicecoils in old speakers are still going - man they
don't build em like that anymore (harmful chemicals in their construction,
is my guess). Sure you could fry them - but only if your learning curve
was in it's developement stages. Everything now is "smart" - but it can't
give me what I want. The old way, so far as I learned is to set the
speakers to match the room & if an EQ was needed - it's time to readjust
speaker placement. Now you just put em where-ever & program the thing.
Just doesn't do it for me at all. Warmth is the factor I miss most - you
just can't program that into a product.

[MikeBrewster77]

Ah, well, I've gone on far too long. I shouldn't have waited to finish this until after I had two Long Island iced Teas.

Ready. :flamed:

P'shaw - you are dead on. At the end of the day (and as I alluded to in an earlier post) why shouldn't we logically expect that an additional 30-40 years of R&D wouldn't produce a better sounding loudspeaker? And if it didn't, wouldn't we all be bemoaning that JBL's engineers had fallen asleep at the wheel and failed to advance the art of speaker design?

There are a number of different elements at play here: Nostalgia is great, and "pleasant" sound is certainly enjoyable, but it doesn't negate advances in technology that can bring us greater realism, accuracy, and enjoyment from evolution in driver, crossover, and enclosure technology. Getting a substantial ROI from a vintage system is always a good time, but the value doesn't necessarily dictate overall quality - sure it might sound better than the Bose's so prevalent in today's systems, but it doesn't make it state of the art in terms of comparable modern day equipment.

We all enjoy our vintage equipment for whatever reason, but to deny the tremendous advances that have been made over the years (and to correspondingly fail to allow ourselves to entertain the idea that something newer might in fact be objectively better) would be disingenuous at best, and self-defeating at worst.

My '87 Monte Carlo SS with its carbureted fuel delivery, simplistic suspension, inferior braking system, and rather unbalanced, RWD weight distribution can’t even hold a candle to my daily driver, but it’s a ton (or two) of fun. Do I have any illusions that it’s technically the best out there? Hell no! Do I expect that GM would have leveraged advancing technologies in the 20+ years since it was designed to create a better product? Of course! Does it minimize the pure pleasure it delivers to me? Not a bit…

It truly is about balancing the total experience with the technical results. Not that one is necessarily better than the other, but attempting to deny the exponential advances in music reproduction technology would be a disservice to all who aim for the ultimate in realistic, life-like sound, and would actually detract from the heritage we’ve inherited.

Best
- Mike (who is several scotch's deep at this point ;))

[Tom Brennan]

Comparing cars to speakers is invalid; a car is a very complex machine and a speaker is almost as simple as a machine can get. And because one technology has improved doesn't mean others have.

In any event if someone prefers an older speaker that's it. None are perfect anyway and one chooses the speaker which has the flaws which bother you the least. A perfect speaker can't even be defined much less built.

Some people are creating straw men here, "if you like colored sound" and so forth. I never heard a speaker or a hi-fi that wasn't colored. Much of what passes today as having low coloration simply has different colorations. A law of hi-fi is "whatever I like is accurate, whatever I don't like isn't."

[MikeBrewster77]

Comparing cars to speakers is invalid; a car is a very complex machine and a speaker is almost as simple as a machine can get. And because one technology has improved doesn't mean others have.
Ehhhh ... I'm going to have to disagree on this one. Cars actually were at one point in time exceptionally simple machines (not very much more complex than a common bicycle) yet the internal combustion engine that very likely powers your current "modern" car existed before James B. Lansing was ever born.

Likewise, speakers admittedly seem exceptionally simply in operation at first glance, but I'm going to guess that a quick dialogue with anyone who actually designs and engineers them might reveal that it's not as cut and dry as we might like to think. Like an automobile, the underlying principles may still be the same as they were 80 years ago, but substantial advances have been made over the years.

Technology exponentially evolves (whether the end users are willing participants or not) and usually there is a correlation that crosses over particular segments to the benefit of all. I've worked with both audio and automotive equipment that is >50 years old, and I can't think of a single system on either front that hasn't benefited from advances in applicable - even if superficially unrelated - technology.

In short, I can't bring myself to believe that a comparison of any technology that has some common basis (energy, motion, etc.) is invalid.

Best,
- Mike

[Titanium Dome]

Comparing cars to speakers is invalid;

Sorry, you were spinning your wheels so loudly that I didn't hear anything before your Nash Rambler stalled.


a car is a very complex machine and a speaker is almost as simple as a machine can get.

I can't build either; they're both marvels of technology to me.


And because one technology has improved doesn't mean others have.

And conversely, logic would dictate that it doesn't preclude both or neither from improving at any point in time.


In any event if someone prefers an older speaker that's it.

"Why? Because I said so!"


None are perfect anyway and one chooses the speaker which has the flaws which bother you the least. A perfect speaker can't even be defined much less built.

Sort of like choosing the least offensive life partner? Ick. Uh-oh, another bad analogy.


Some people are creating straw men here,

That would be me, I suppose, except...


"if you like colored sound" and so forth.

...it's actually "colored, vintage sound" which would be a logical member of the set of "colored sound" which could include "colored, contemporary sound," "colored, studio sound," "colored, direct radiator sound," colored, compression driver sound," "colored, tube-driven sound," "colored solid state sound," :blah: :blah:


I never heard a speaker or a hi-fi that wasn't colored.

I've often wondered, even as I've used the term tongue-in-cheek who first described sound as "colored" and just what colored sound looks/sounds like?


Much of what passes today as having low coloration simply has different colorations. A law of hi-fi is "whatever I like is accurate, whatever I don't like isn't."

That's a bad law. How do we repeal it?

[brad347]

I'm happy you guys like your new speakers.

I like my old ones.
:)

[Mr. Widget]

Tom, you and I often disagree... I don't mean to suggest we are entirely out of phase with respect to each other, but we often come to slightly different conclusions. That said, I think these few lines are brilliantly simple, to the point, and spot on.


In any event if someone prefers an older speaker that's it. None are perfect anyway and one chooses the speaker which has the flaws which bother you the least. A perfect speaker can't even be defined much less built.


Widget

[Titanium Dome]

Okay, we've had our monthly debate between old farts and fanboys, so time to move on. :D

See you guys next month. :bouncy:

[4313B]

See you guys next month. :bouncy:Not me, I'm dreadfully bored with this stupid discourse. :barf:

Enjoy your new system! I think you made a fantastic purchase!

In other news, it looks like G.T. might be getting a pair of Everest II's for his personal use. :bouncy: They'll be the new front channel and the 1200 Array's (476Be's replacing the original 435Be's) will move to the rear channel.

(Carefully note that he chose Everest II's as opposed to anything else from of his vast array of exemplary creations over the past 35 years, 'nuf said).

[brad347]

turn-ons include long walks on the beach and fighting on the internet. :)

[Akira]

Admittedly I haven't heard any of today's supreme high end systems.
But, even during the past 40 years when I was obsessed with the art, I never, ever heard a home system that has totally blown me away, and I have heard all kinds of systems of every make and theory. I have heard several outstanding systems but, nothing to ever blow me away.

Why? Because to me it's all about the acoustical environment.
The only sound to ever do this to me was a quad mix in a purpose built Westlake studio with tri-amped, soffit mounted Westlake monitors and that was 35 years ago. And yes at that time I had the post secondary audio education and music training to know what excellent sound was.
Nothing ever has come close to that experience.

So for me and many others the question throughout the ages is: In the real world of audio fidelity, how much better does the end product actually sound?

[grumpy]

Ah... to be in a position to have 476Be's driving -back- channels... :)
and to think I was fairly happy with the sound I was getting from old-ish large format
JBL's on EH500-2's last night...

[Doc Mark]

Mr. Widget wrote:

"Tom, you and I often disagree... I don't mean to suggest we are entirely out of phase with respect to each other, but we often come to slightly different conclusions. That said, I think these few lines are brilliantly simple, to the point, and spot on."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Brennan http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=251241#post251241)
In any event if someone prefers an older speaker that's it. None are perfect anyway and one chooses the speaker which has the flaws which bother you the least. A perfect speaker can't even be defined much less built.


Widget

Good Morning, Widget, and All,

This has been a very interesting thread, and more than a little entertaining! Personally, not withstanding some good points that have been made about all this, I strongly stand with my original point, which none of the naysaying has addressed, period! Some of our Legacy JBL systems STILL sound better than what MOST people are listening to in their homes today!! This, my friends, whether you like it, or not, is a fact, pure and simple! Where do "the masses" buy their stereo systems? What are they buying? They buy from the Big Box stores and other such places, and they buy cheap, horrible-sounding crap, most of the time! How anyone can disagree with this simple truth, is beyond me!!

Tom's post, and Widget's reply, pretty much sum it up for me. At almost 60 years in age, my ears aren't as good as they used to be, and while I still have OK hearing, I know that WHATEVER I hear is going to sound different to me, than to many other folks. I have no problem with that. I would guess that most of the folks that live here at LH also have some hearing losses, some major, some minor... happens when you get older, for most of us. Add in almost 30 years of playing music for a living, and more years than that, of shooting firearms without hearing protection, plus more than several years riding around in tanks whilst serving my Country, and yeah, my hearing is definitely not what it used to be.

BUT, perfect, or not, I believe that has nothing to do with my original point. Other people who listen to our L300's "prove" that point to me, time and time again, over and over, and without exception. They have never heard a system that sounds this good, period.

So, since some folks do not wish to face this simple fact, which to me, is irrefutable, I shall not continue to kick the deceased equine in this thread. Tom and Widget have summed it up, perfectly, as far as I'm concerned, regarding why some of us still enjoy the Legacy systems, even when JBL has moved far beyond them. Note that I fully admit, and very much love, that this has happened, and that JBL is still doing the fine R&D work for which we have all loved them in the past!! Maybe someday, I'll seek out and buy an 1400 Array system! Who knows? But, even without hearing it, I'll fully admit, it's probably vastly superior to our beloved L300's. I will also tell you this, and then be done with it: Even if I had an 1400 Array system, and our L300's, in the same room, I'll wager that your average person on the street, which by the way is the person about whom I've been talking all along, could NOT tell the differences between the two!! Some would prefer the 1400's, some would prefer the L300's, technology having NOTHING to do with their choices!!! ;):D:applaud::applaud::bouncy::bouncy: Take care, Friends, and keep the faith. Keep having fun with your JBL's, old and new, and don't let anyone try to tell you that they are not just right, "for you"!! God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc (amused by the turns in this thread, and who still believes that LH is a place where love and adoration of systems made by JBL, both old and new, is alive and well, as it should be!)

[Mr. Widget]

Not me, I'm dreadfully bored with this stupid discourse. :barf:Stupid? Naw. Silly? Sure, but we're just sitting around entertaining ourselves while we should most likely be doing something else. ;)


Ah... to be in a position to have 476Be's driving -back- channels... :)
and to think I was fairly happy with the sound I was getting from old-ish large format
JBL's on EH500-2's last night...:applaud: :rotfl: :applaud: :rotfl: :applaud:

Right On!... as we used to say.


Widget

[4313B]

Stupid? Naw. Silly? Sure, but we're just sitting around entertaining ourselves while we should most likely be doing something else. ;)Touche'

Ok, I meant silly. :D

[spkrman57]

I can't afford the modern day speaker systems JBL is making. So I have to wait for vintage to be available and affordable.

In my mind, the 2226 and other things have already become vintage/and affordable drivers to me!

Regards, Ron

[4313B]

I can't afford the modern day speaker systems JBL is making.A non-issue. JBL isn't real big on supplying product to North America anyway.

[Mr. Widget]

I can't afford the modern day speaker systems JBL is making. So I have to wait for vintage to be available and affordable.:yes:

Yep, never could... even back in the '70s I had hand-me-down early '60s JBLs. The cool high end JBLs of the past were damned expensive when new just like today's are... quality R+D and manufacturing cost a lot back then and still does today. It is that simple. We are quite fortunate that JBL has supported these systems for so long. Even the tired oldies can be found in very usable condition or in many cases restored. And at a fraction of their new price when inflation is taken into consideration.

Are the high end new JBLs better? I certainly think so, but many of the older systems were so damned good, they are still very relevant and as has been pointed out, for some they like the distortions of the past better than those of today.


Widget

[brad347]

And at a fraction of their new price when inflation is taken into consideration.


Isn't that the truth. My L-65As were a steal, but even at the "going rate," they're pretty similar, price-wise, to the original price of $426 apiece ($852/pr). Sometimes you see them for more than that, sometimes less.

But adjusted for inflation... in "today's dollars" when brand new they were he equivalent of a staggering $3,457.60.

Wow!!

In an era when my parents bought their 3 bedroom suburban home for $23,000, $852 for a pair of speakers was quite a chunk of change!!

That same year, the L-300s were $960 each, or $1920/pr. In today's dollars, that is $7184.61.

THAT is an expensive pair of speakers!! (by my po' boy standards, anyhow).

I love the inflation calculator, btw. Fascinating to me to see what this stuff cost before I was ever born.

[robertbartsch]

Wow; apparently, this thread has sparked a fire within many here.

Getting back to the original question; JBL has run dry in the US when it comes to retail sales but that is not surprising since the whole retail market has dropped dead, I suppose.

Apparently, Harmon is strong in the commercial market including cinema and sound reinforcement, however.

Frankly, I am confused about the recent decision to discontinue parts distribution for the retail market. Is it fair to say that since many retail drivers are similar to the prfessional version that this decision will have a minamal effect?

[Mr. Widget]

Is it fair to say that since many retail drivers are similar to the prfessional version that this decision will have a minamal effect?Similar, identical, and completely different... unfortunately if you are after a high end studio monitor or home system, the pro offerings come up a bit short these days. Pro no longer use the types of woofers that I feel sound best in a home or studio environment... they do have a HF driver or two that are quite usable, but no horns that I would want to use. (I'm not talking about small project studio monitors... those are readily available from JBL Pro as complete systems.)

That isn't to say, you can't assemble a quite respectable system from JBL Pro, but you'll never get an Array 1400 or modern 43XX from today's offerings. :(


Widget

[BROCKWOOD]

Similar, identical, and completely different... unfortunately if you are after a high end studio monitor or home system, the pro offerings come up a bit short these days. Pro no longer use the types of woofers that I feel sound best in a home or studio environment... they do have a HF driver or two that are quite usable, but no horns that I would want to use. (I'm not talking about small project studio monitors... those are readily available from JBL Pro as complete systems.)

That isn't to say, you can't assemble a quite respectable system from JBL Pro, but you'll never get an Array 1400 or modern 43XX from today's offerings. :(


Widget

Although I can't really comment on most of Mr Widget's response above;
I can say that 2 factors are in play that help balance the scale when
weighing the old with the new.

Forget measuring equipment: Modern computers have mearly made this
process & developement quicker. This is a Nolo Contendre.

Forget rated values: Modern standards are = to the old school "there are
no standards." My 1st point.

My 2nd point may be considered the victory for the modern conesuer:
Restrictions on available chemicals essentially make the new vs old an
apple & oranges comparison. The old was not afforded our modern
polyplastics while the new was not afforded the best chemical processes
or the best materials or the best artisans or the best pride of accomplishment.

I vote old is better dollar for dollar (inflation adjusted of course). Tell ya
what: Get out the old test standards & measure the new stuff. Then it
truly will be a direct comparison:applaud:

[Mr. Widget]

Get out the old test standards & measure the new stuff. Then it truly will be a direct comparison:applaud:I am not sure I understand where you are going with this... I have used a modern measurement system to measure new and old drivers and if the old ones really are NOS or are rebuilt they measure quite closely to the original specs... the vintage drivers that I have randomly sampled from ebay rarely come close to original spec.

As for comparing older technologies to the newer ones, say an aluminum diaphragmed 2441 vs. a Be diaphragmed 476Be, the new ones do exhibit lower distortion, greater bandwidth, more linear response etc... are newer components better? For many applications, certainly... do they render the older favorites obsolete, I don't think so. The original Western Electric designs that all of these drivers have evolved from were surprisingly good, especially when you realize that it has taken decades of study to realize just how good they were. ;)

Widget

[mike]

I guess we should appreciate both the old and new stuff for what it is and be happy that we can sometimes find it and buy it.

Mike

[Titanium Dome]

The span of history represented by my electronics collection spans more than three-quarters of a century, which isn't all that long really. In Lansing Heritage stuff, it spans a mere 39 years from those original L100s I bought in '70.

To keep it in perspective, though, JBL is one of the few extant brands that has a history that covers the period I'm talking about. Most of the other companies have waxed and waned during that time.

I like the old JBLs just fine; I like the new JBLs even better. The speculation about the brand going away is just that, speculation. The brand has legs and will for a long time, especially given the quality of R&D still going on.

[spkrman57]

Bottom feeders like myself who have limited cash to pay for drivers were fortunate to find 2226's and used the Pi forum(Wayne Parham) for implementation on decent 2-way designs.

It seems that I have been looking for 2225/2226 drivers as my mainstay anymore as they can be found for decent money. I have also picked up a pair of 2035 drivers which will be used for my poorer friends who need decent audio.

I find the compression driver scene to be more vintage for my liking as the cost is out of my range for current JBL large format comp drivers.

You can still find 2440/2441 drivers out there for decent prices. I sold my last pair recently and have relied on a pair of EV DH1-A 2" to get me by until the depression passes.

I guess the big money is still on my wooden Edgar horns. :blink:

It is better to be in the upper half of good vintage than the bottom half of the current production of what is affordable nowdays from other manufacturers.

My systems will pale in comparison to the 5 digit($$$) systems. :o:

But listening to a system that is reasonably flat and seductive between 50hz and 16khz and images like nothing else keeps me going. And I run it all with a 8 wpc 300B triode amp. While not everyones "cup of tea", it suites me good enough to get by.;)

I know there is better out there, but it is not in my financial range!:(

Regards, Ron

[Titanium Dome]

I find the compression driver scene to be more vintage for my liking as the cost is out of my range for current JBL large format comp drivers.



It is better to be in the upper half of good vintage than the bottom half of the current production of what is affordable nowdays from other manufacturers.

My systems will pale in comparison to the 5 digit($$$) systems. :o:

But listening to a system that is reasonably flat and seductive between 50hz and 16khz and images like nothing else keeps me going. And I run it all with a 8 wpc 300B triode amp. While not everyones "cup of tea", it suites me good enough to get by.;)

I know there is better out there, but it is not in my financial range!:(

Regards, Ron

Yes, when the issue is value and affordability, the vintage stuff really shines.

[robertbartsch]

I thought current large format compression drivers - 2446s are being sold at reasonable prices. Ditto for 2226s and such.

I just bought a pair of working 2425s for $110 a piece.

[4313B]

It is better to be in the upper half of good vintage than the bottom half of the current production of what is affordable nowdays from other manufacturers.Or even from JBL

Absofreakinlutely! :yes:

[BROCKWOOD]

The point I was trying to make is that the ratings system is not like it was years ago.
The numbers have been manipulated to the point of being misleading. I don't believe
that technology hasn't improved at all. Afterall Technology Must improve. I consider
the 4600B series Cabaret to be the pinnacle of a paticular design that had to give way
to something more forgiving. This is because people don't seem to have the education
needed to respect the limits of thier speakers.

Sure, newer materials are available. - but with misleading specs - how can I compare
the new with the old?



I am not sure I understand where you are going with this... I have used a modern measurement system to measure new and old drivers and if the old ones really are NOS or are rebuilt they measure quite closely to the original specs... the vintage drivers that I have randomly sampled from ebay rarely come close to original spec.

As for comparing older technologies to the newer ones, say an aluminum diaphragmed 2441 vs. a Be diaphragmed 476Be, the new ones do exhibit lower distortion, greater bandwidth, more linear response etc... are newer components better? For many applications, certainly... do they render the older favorites obsolete, I don't think so. The original Western Electric designs that all of these drivers have evolved from were surprisingly good, especially when you realize that it has taken decades of study to realize just how good they were. ;)

Widget

[ka7niq]

I am not sure I understand where you are going with this... I have used a modern measurement system to measure new and old drivers and if the old ones really are NOS or are rebuilt they measure quite closely to the original specs... the vintage drivers that I have randomly sampled from ebay rarely come close to original spec.

As for comparing older technologies to the newer ones, say an aluminum diaphragmed 2441 vs. a Be diaphragmed 476Be, the new ones do exhibit lower distortion, greater bandwidth, more linear response etc... are newer components better? For many applications, certainly... do they render the older favorites obsolete, I don't think so. The original Western Electric designs that all of these drivers have evolved from were surprisingly good, especially when you realize that it has taken decades of study to realize just how good they were. ;)

Widget
Agreed.
I pulled many a Western System out of Theatres and sold it to the Japanese, before I LISTENED to the stuff.
An ALL Western Electric System is one of the TOP 5 systems I have EVER heard.
I lived in Seattle, and drove up to Vancouver, Canada to hear it.
It BLEW my mind in every area, except Imaging.
There are SOME older designs that are still good, even by todays standards.
I recently heard my older Electrovoice Interface D's I stupidly sold years ago.
I cried all the way home :(
IMHO, JBL is STILL making a lot of good stuff.
Remember, potential JBL Customers are READING this Forum ?
IF we want JBL to survive, we must not alienate them by making it a "bad thing " to own NEW JBL equipment" :(
It puzzles me HOW anyone can quote Greg Timbers in their signature, yet endanger his JOB by suggesting NEW JBL stuff is "junk" ???

[Tom Brennan]

Remember, potential JBL Customers are READING this Forum ?
IF we want JBL to survive, we must not alienate them by making it a "bad thing " to own NEW JBL equipment" :(


Whether or not JBL survives is of no concern to me. That they don't make (or make available) a speaker I'd consider buying is their problem not mine.

[Mr. Widget]

Whether or not JBL survives is of no concern to me.Ok.


That they don't make (or make available) a speaker I'd consider buying is their problem not mine.Personal preference is just that. I heard the Array 1400s up against a similarly priced pair of Martin Logans... I thought the JBL had a far more natural sound... I was quite surprised at just how "honky" the Logans sounded and their top end was murky at best... but then, that is why there are so many choices.


Widget

[scott fitlin]

Whether or not one likes NEW JBL or older, is a matter of preference. In many aspects, MODERN components outdo the older designs, and in some cases many people like the sound of the vintage components, and I do too! BUT I also like the new components as well, used properly, in many applications.

For sure, one thing to always bear in mind, MUSIC today is vastly different from what it was thirty years ago, heck, even just ten years ago. In my system, the way it was set up ten years ago, just can't reproduce the extreme bottom end in todays music without becoming muddy, or just plain ol running out of steam.

I find current JBL HIGH END and PRO products to be the BEST of what's out there, IMO, and again, IMO, reproduces todays music properly, and makes awesome sound.

Then, and this is specific to my application and end use, I am sometimes forced to change the use of vintage products, to newer, current products, because of serviceability issues. IF I had wanted to keep using Gauss woofers, which I happen to have loved in the 70,s and 80,s, what do I do when something breaks and there just are no parts available?

OTOH, let me tell you, I LOVE my VINTAGE JBL horns and tweeters, works wonderfully well still to this day, but the current woofers, and modern high power amps, make OUTSTANDING LOW END!

For me, that JBL still makes parts for many vintage components, and that the older gear still works well, AND MAKES GREAT modern gear, is a testament to a legendary audio maker.

If anything, and IMHO, this earns JBL my high marks, and praise, not reasons to trash them!

[robertbartsch]

Scotty:
I agree.

Someone made the comment here that new professional compression drivers are arguably better than the older vintage stuff but that the new pro woofers do not make good high fidelity systems.

Really?

[4313B]

With the demise of JBL Consumer in Woodbury and the fact that Crown is now going to take over support for JBL Consumer Products my money has to go to the legacy JBL Pro systems, especially the nearly fully supported 4344, 4345, 4355, 4430 and 4435 loudspeaker systems... I suspect that the Japanese market is completely responsible for JBL Pro maintaining legacy support. Not even systems like the newer 4344 Mk II are fully supported any longer, granted that is a JBL Consumer Product rather than JBL Pro.

I have the very latest and greatest JBL's but I don't have much hope that they will be serviceable should something tragic happen to them, especially since they are DIY instead of Finished Goods. While JBL Pro Manufacturing makes the 1500AL, 1200FE, 435BE, 476BE and 045BE, JBL Pro Marketing, JBL Pro Sales and JBL Pro Service have no idea what any of those things are, hence no support.

[Rusnzha]

For me, that JBL still makes parts for many vintage components, and that the older gear still works well, AND MAKES GREAT modern gear, is a testament to a legendary audio maker.

If anything, and IMHO, this earns JBL my high marks, and praise, not reasons to trash them!

:cheers:

[ka7niq]

Whether or not JBL survives is of no concern to me. That they don't make (or make available) a speaker I'd consider buying is their problem not mine.
Really Tom ?
You would not consider a JBL Array ?
Or a K2 ?

[ka7niq]

With the demise of JBL Consumer in Woodbury and the fact that Crown is now going to take over support for JBL Consumer Products my money has to go to the legacy JBL Pro systems, especially the nearly fully supported 4344, 4345, 4355, 4430 and 4435 loudspeaker systems... I suspect that the Japanese market is completely responsible for JBL Pro maintaining legacy support. Not even systems like the newer 4344 Mk II are fully supported any longer, granted that is a JBL Consumer Product rather than JBL Pro.

I have the very latest and greatest JBL's but I don't have much hope that they will be serviceable should something tragic happen to them, especially since they are DIY instead of Finished Goods. While JBL Pro Manufacturing makes the 1500AL, 1200FE, 435BE, 476BE and 045BE, JBL Pro Marketing, JBL Pro Sales and JBL Pro Service have no idea what any of those things are, hence no support.
What are the speakers you have ?

[ka7niq]

:cheers:
Agreed :)

[LowPhreak]

Really Tom ?
You would not consider a JBL Array ?
Or a K2 ?


What are the speakers you have ?

Has it occurred to you that an Array or K2 might not be the right speakers for everyone, or that they're just too expensive for some?

It seems like you're trolling again or are just bored. Knock it off. :mad:

[BMWCCA]

You would not consider a JBL Array ?I almost pulled the trigger on the 1400 Array. That trauma is well-documented here. Just to break them down for transport meant having to destroy $50 in badges to dismount the horns, with no guaranty of availability for any subsequent moves. Instead I decided to pay about the same money for a reproduction pair of 4345s, with all new components, because I know the crew here can help me keep them singing for the remainder of my life. :dont-know

Heck, that's just me. Proud to be a Luddite. But believe it or not, my wife was easier to sell on these huge boxes than she was on the photos of the oddly shaped zebra-skinned Arrays. Plus they recommended a 15" sub to go with the 14" Array. And this is what "Support" offers for a current model JBL:

336321-001 http://www.harmanaudio.com/images/pixel/trans_pixel.gif Woofer http://www.harmanaudio.com/images/pixel/trans_pixel.gif $285.52 This part is discontinued with no substitutes available. We apologize for any inconvenience.
339009-001 http://www.harmanaudio.com/images/pixel/trans_pixel.gif TWT UHF-045TI 1400 ARRAY(N 361016-001) http://www.harmanaudio.com/images/pixel/trans_pixel.gif $331.35 NOT AVAILABLE Add to wish list (http://www.harmanaudio.com/account/addalerts.asp?prod=339009%2D001&salesorg=PART&pagetype=PR)
339976-001 http://www.harmanaudio.com/images/pixel/trans_pixel.gif GASKET, UHF SK2-1000, K2S9900 http://www.harmanaudio.com/images/pixel/trans_pixel.gif $3.42 This part is discontinued with no substitutes available. We apologize for any inconvenience.
854-00000-12 http://www.harmanaudio.com/images/pixel/trans_pixel.gif BOLT 1/4-20X3/4 HEX TAP 1400 ARRAY http://www.harmanaudio.com/images/pixel/trans_pixel.gif $1.98 NOT AVAILABLE Add to wish list (http://www.harmanaudio.com/account/addalerts.asp?prod=854%2D00000%2D12&salesorg=PART&pagetype=PR)
:D

[4313B]

And this is what "Support" offers for a current model JBL:
:DWe'll see what shakes out now that Crown is taking over. This "support" thing has gotten totally out of hand...

[BMWCCA]

We'll see what shakes out now that Crown is taking over. This "support" thing has gotten totally out of hand... In my limited experience, Crown's support in the part department is at least equal to the friendly folks at JBL Pro in professionalism and willingness to help. I have nothing good to say about the JBL-NY consumer group support since they were never able to supply anything but a price for parts I wanted. Pro had them, shipped them quickly, and charged me far less than the price quoted by JBL consumer support for the same part. Perhaps consolidation will create some economic benefit for Harman as well as improving service to the consumer. :applaud:

[4313B]

In my limited experience, Crown's support in the part department is at least equal to the friendly folks at JBL Pro in professionalism and willingness to help.JBL Pro has always rocked. Never any problems in dealing with them since their inception.

***

Evidently Crown is taking over JBL Specialty Products (Everest II, Array Series, Synthesis, etc) as well as Lexicon, Levinson, etc.
Everything else (Harman/Kardon, JBL Consumer, Infinity, etc.) will be outsourced to Wipro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wipro).

[ka7niq]

Has it occurred to you that an Array or K2 might not be the right speakers for everyone, or that they're just too expensive for some?

It seems like you're trolling again or are just bored. Knock it off. :mad:
Wrong :)
Not "Bored" at all :)
I have a Business, and we just cleaned a really big Strip Mall.
Got some nice Florida Sun, made a few Bucks.
Music is playing on the 412's, younger Girlfriend is in the shower, life is Good!

[BMWCCA]

. . . younger Girlfriend is in the shower, life is Good!I'm glad to see this (http://www.okcupid.com/profile/ka7niq/) worked out for you!

[ka7niq]

I almost pulled the trigger on the 1400 Array. That trauma is well-documented here. Just to break them down for transport meant having to destroy $50 in badges to dismount the horns, with no guaranty of availability for any subsequent moves. Instead I decided to pay about the same money for a reproduction pair of 4345s, with all new components, because I know the crew here can help me keep them singing for the remainder of my life. :dont-know

Heck, that's just me. Proud to be a Luddite. But believe it or not, my wife was easier to sell on these huge boxes than she was on the photos of the oddly shaped zebra-skinned Arrays. Plus they recommended a 15" sub to go with the 14" Array. And this is what "Support" offers for a current model JBL:
:D
I don't recall having the pleasure of hearing the 4345.
My childhood friend Larry Janus back in Detroit had a pair of Monster JBL's with that kind of Lens on them.
He had a Crown IC 150 pre amp and a DC 300 amp if I recall correctly.
I remember his JBL's as being ungodly loud and powerful in his basement, listening close up.
I also remeber a certain sweetness, when he turned them down to a sane level!
He later moved out of his parents and had ESS AMT 1B's and Design Acoustic D 12's, remember them ?
LOL, a huge sphere with drivers all over pointing everywhere.
Don't know what happened to his big JBL whatevers, but I know he missed them!
Perhaps they were his Dad's ?

I used to own Electro Voice Interface D's :(
Really miss them too.
I was going to build some Horns, and still might do it one day ?

[Titanium Dome]

I'm glad to see this (http://www.okcupid.com/profile/ka7niq/) worked out for you!

I
I
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don't know what to say.

[Titanium Dome]

I almost pulled the trigger on the 1400 Array. That trauma is well-documented here. Just to break them down for transport meant having to destroy $50 in badges to dismount the horns, with no guaranty of availability for any subsequent moves. Instead I decided to pay about the same money for a reproduction pair of 4345s, with all new components, because I know the crew here can help me keep them singing for the remainder of my life. :dont-know

Heck, that's just me. Proud to be a Luddite. But believe it or not, my wife was easier to sell on these huge boxes than she was on the photos of the oddly shaped zebra-skinned Arrays. Plus they recommended a 15" sub to go with the 14" Array.
:D

I was disappointed that the 1400 Arrays didn't work out for you. It was a sweet deal on some amazing speakers. The 4345s are super, no doubt.

[Titanium Dome]

***

Evidently Crown is taking over JBL Specialty Products (Everest II, Array Series, Synthesis, etc) as well as Lexicon, Levinson, etc.
Everything else (Harman/Kardon, JBL Consumer, Infinity, etc.) will be outsourced to Wipro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wipro).

I actually know some folks at Crown, having lived in the Elkhart/Goshen area for a number of years. The old Crown employees were the cream of the midwestern crop: hard working, quality conscious, consistent, and productive. When I toured the facility through the courtesy of a friend who worked there in 1976, it was quite a thing to see, well-ordered, labor-intensive, craftsmanlike work.

I know a lot of east coast Harman folks are going there. Let's hope for the best.

[MikeBrewster77]

younger Girlfriend is in the shower, life is Good!

I feel uncomfortable ... I need an adult!!! :barf:


I'm glad to see this (http://www.okcupid.com/profile/ka7niq/) worked out for you!

heheheheheeeee ............

hahahahahahaaaaaa .........

BWAAAAHHHAAAAAAA ............

OK, seriously, I just can't stop:rotfl:

Now my stomach hurts, and I may have just peed a little. :(

[ka7niq]

I
I
I
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don't know what to say.
A picture says it ALL :)39567

39568

[Fred Sanford]

A picture says it ALL :)39567

39568

Dammit, I was SURE you were going to pick this one:

[scott fitlin]

JBL Pro has always rocked. Never any problems in dealing with them since their inception.

***

Evidently Crown is taking over JBL Specialty Products (Everest II, Array Series, Synthesis, etc) as well as Lexicon, Levinson, etc.
Everything else (Harman/Kardon, JBL Consumer, Infinity, etc.) will be outsourced to Wipro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wipro).I second this. NEVER had any issue with JBL PRO, for as long as I have been using with JBL!

:bouncy:

[ka7niq]

Dammit, I was SURE you were going to pick this one:
LOL Fred ;)
I was saving that one for "someone special" :banghead:
Why dont you nice folks post some pics of yourselves ?

[SEAWOLF97]

Why dont you nice folks post some pics of yourselves ?

there's some here

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=20074

[ka7niq]

there's some here

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=20074

Thanks for the link :)
It is funny how our perception of what we think people look like is altered once we meet, or see a picture of them ?
Some very nice looking Folks on this forum, much younger then I had imagined.
I can see many here know each other personally, unlike Audio Asylum.

questions ?

Is that Fred Sanford in the pic he posted, or his kids ?
The Hyperbolic Bottom Feeder looks a lot like an old friend of mine from Seattle .
Heather I honestly thought was an elderly Woman in her 70's, until I saw a picture of her :)

[Titanium Dome]

there's some here

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=20074

Nice! I'd forgotten about that. And hey, I got the JBL logo in my pic. :bouncy:

Which brings me to this point in this thread: JBL will be running strong for at least another two or three decades. Even if they went out of production today, we'd keep 'em alive and working for 30 more years.

Hell, my L100s are 39 years old and barely broken in. Those XPL200s I rehabbed are almost 20, and they're like new. The Synthesis® stuff I got a couple of months ago looks like it could last 50 years, and that's only a small part of it all.

So while JBL the manufacturer could close up shop, JBL the brand will be around long past my lifetime. Besides, there's no indication that JBL is in any real trouble here in the US except in the minds of some people. It's one of the top brands in the Harman stable and certainly the most viable.

[MikeBrewster77]

... much younger then I had imagined.


Seems to be a recurring theme - I was called an "old fart" earlier this week by another poster. Frankly, I thought that was hysterical :D


So while JBL the manufacturer could close up shop, JBL the brand will be around long past my lifetime.

Absolutely. When a company builds a solid legacy by producing a quality product and delivering exceptional service, they inevitably develop a loyal fan base.

Not to mention, someone's going to inherit all of our stuff and will have to do something with it ;). I'm sure the heritage will continue. :)