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JBLAddict
04-28-2009, 10:11 PM
Hi All, been scouring the ads for a Soundcraftsmen amp for a couple months to power my L7s.

For those being auctioned, there's a huge disparity in bidding activity, with some getting near 30 bids, while others not a nibble. Considering there are models from the 70s through the 90s, are their certain flags that might explain what those "in the know" are spooked by or seeaking eg 1)70s unit considered a collectors item 2)90s models of the MTX variety 3)owner claims can't full test 4)rack mounted unit used in a studio 5)class A vs. class H ?? :(


case in point....
this 70's MA5002 fetched a nice $311 with 16 bids
\http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=180348455271

whereas this nice 90's A200, while 1/2 the power, one bid
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=380112631554

yet this 80's ProPower has solid bidding fetching over $200
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=170304413978

What I'm looking for is an A400, which has the power rating I seek, is a bit newer, and recommended by TiD for the L7s, but cannot understand why they fetch so much less that some of the 70s units...

Thanks!!

Titanium Dome
04-29-2009, 02:43 PM
The final Soundcraftsmen amps, the Soundcraftsmen MTX A100, A200, and A400 (along with their pro counterparts) are the best values in Soundcraftsmen amplifiers. They are true Soundcraftsmen designs produced after the company's (unfortunate) acquisition by MTX. They are my favorite looking and they perform without a hitch.

Some of the more classic amps do bring higher prices. They have analog meters or LED meters, extra buttons, etc. that appeal to collectors but also introduce extra pieces into the amp's design. These are things I don't need. The A100 (I have three), A200 (I have two) and A400 (I have two) are no nonsense, powerful, clean, durable units with a single purpose: amplify a pair of speakers.

In the case of my A400s, I happen to be sitting in the office where I have a pair of A400s driving a pair of L7s. One amp powers the LF drivers, the LE120H-1s, and the other runs the HF network and drivers. It's simply outstanding.

I have a lot of Soundcraftsmen gear, and the A Series amps are the ones I like best, with the "shoebox amps" a close second (PCR800, PM860, etc.).

The MA5002 is the best looking amp with its large meters, but it would be further down on my list, and it costs too much relative to its real value. The Pro Power units are unattractive in my view, and they're the ones that seem to have the lowest quality control.

BMWCCA
04-30-2009, 08:20 AM
I've used Soundcraftsmen products for over thirty years and currently have about eleven of their components. Only ever had to send one back for repair and that was a minor issue with an unbalanced volume pot that seems to be endemic in their '70s-'80s-vintage pre-amps and pre-EQs (and apparently not fixable). I've had a Pro-Power-Four amp for a year or so and it performs flawlessly. I've used it with my L7s but my ears and brain simply prefer the Crown PS-400.

The later Soundcraftsmen stuff from the '90s (and I'll in include the last U.S-made MTX units, too) seem to be among their best products. I have two Pro-Control-Four pre-amps and Pro-44-EQs that are among my favorites and I use one pair with two Crowns in my bi-amped 4345 system, for what that's worth.

I bought the Pro-Power-Four on a whim in a set with the second EQ and pre-amp, all like-new in original boxes with manuals, just to try it out and not split up the set. The asking price for the amp alone was $325 but I ended up paying about $525 plus shipping for all three so I figure the amp at maybe about $250 of that. I think that's a pretty good deal for a solid, powerful amp in great condition.

You do have to watch out for condition on many Soundcraftsmen amps since they seem to have been put in heavy DJ and SR use and many are quite rough, abused, and have been ridden hard and put up wet. This seems especially true in the Pro-Power-Ten model. I understand T-dome's affection for the A-series and their elegant simplicity but I wouldn't let that keep you from considering a nice Pro-Power-Four, or the other similar models.

Here's a link to a great test report (yeah, I know, it's just Julian Hirsch who supposedly never found anything he didn't like!) that piqued my curiosity enough to buy one: http://www.soundcraftsmen.com/test_reports.htm

Titanium Dome
04-30-2009, 10:59 PM
The Pro Power units are unattractive in my view, and they're the ones that seem to have the lowest quality control.

I'll amend this to say the Pro Power electronics seem fine. It's the buttons and switches that fall off, the dirt-attracting front plate, and the poor paint jobs that make them less attractive. They will drive almost anything, and I still use one to drive my L250s, despite its missing parts.

BMWCCA
05-01-2009, 07:06 AM
It's the buttons and switches that fall off, the dirt-attracting front plate, and the poor paint jobs that make them less attractive.That is a strange phenomenon, isn't it? Paint issues are pretty much due to the components not having big enough feet on them to clear even each other if stacked and not racked. And careless handling is always the issue more than poor paint. I have seen plenty being sold with missing knobs (pre-amps) and buttons. Must be a common rectangular button from that era since SAE used the same ones. EQ slider knobs seem to get lost, too. And the Pro-Control and Pre-Receiver knobs are quite unique and often missing. None of my ten-or-so components are so afflicted, luckily. Adult-owned by people who cared enough to keep the original boxes seems to help. And I keep a dusting brush on hand. Easy enough.
http://www.bettymills.com/store/images/product/CFS36573_03.JPG

While we're on the topic: For the later EQs, the plastic tips on the sliders are matched pretty well by the smallest bolt covers in the Lowe's hardware bins. You can even get them in red to set-off the main gain controls from the third-octave controls which is why I found them. Then one dead CX-series pre-EQ can supply practically an entire forum membership with spare parts . . .

JBLAddict
05-02-2009, 08:30 AM
thanks so much guys for the detailed explanations, that was exactly the type of information I was after, especially from others that own L7/L5 like yourselves.....in fact it was your input on the L Series thread that has had my humming and hawing over the 80s models vs. the 90s models.....

I was outbid on an A400 on ebay right here in my own zipcode (!) about three months ago, and shortly thereafter realized that I faarrr underbid, the winner took the thing for $150!! and it was spotless...I'm still :banghead: over this

The only ones that have popped up since have been the Aseries "pro" model (with the orange lines across the face) which get no bids, I'm assuming because as you say they were DJ used and driven hard?

So....I've thought seriously about the ProPower4, considered the PCR800 but they always look so beatup and the linked test reports (which I've read many times) cite a fan noise issue, and very slightly considered the MA5002 but don't want something that old that sells at a premium over the A400 and ProPower....

bottom line....there's a very clean looking ProPower4 up for auction now, still under $200, comes with the manuals and CoC, and is "fully functional".....I'd really like to hold out for the A400 but if the only risk is paint and buttons, what would be a reasonable top bid?? and does the A400 hold any other inherent benefits that make it worth holding out for? (no fan noise, performance, etc)

thanks again

JBLAddict
05-02-2009, 08:38 AM
btw, I recently rearranged my entire living room around the L7/L5/LC home theater--rotated the speakers, furniture, TV 90 degrees. The L7 now sit 3' from the front and back walls (actually I marked the floor off at 3.3 x 5.1ft "golden ratio" positions and pull them out a bit when I want it just right;)), and it's been well worth it!! talk about spooky good soundstage/imaging

BMWCCA
05-02-2009, 11:31 AM
...there's a very clean looking ProPower4 up for auction now, still under $200, comes with the manuals and CoC, and is "fully functional".....I'd really like to hold out for the A400 but if the only risk is paint and buttons, what would be a reasonable top bid?? and does the A400 hold any other inherent benefits that make it worth holding out for? (no fan noise, performance, etc)I can't really answer your questions. I mentioned what I paid for mine but I bought it to complete a Soundcraftsmen Pro-* system: pre-amp, EQ, tuner, amp. We all know the current bid price is meaningless until the last ten seconds on Ebay, so you've got over five days left. Mine must be a wimp. It's check sheet shows only 215 watts at 8-ohms. ;)

In several listening sessions I determined I preferred the sound of the Crown PS-400 amp so I'm not really using the Soundcraftsmen. Not interested in selling mine since it's in a rack with its related components and ready to be deployed with the L7 spares in a friend's new garage. I can't speak highly enough about the pre-amp and EQ, and the amp performed admirably with the L7. I believe I wrote back then about it maybe being a killer LF amp for a bi-amp system but I liked the HF qualities of the Crown better when I used them both in non-bi-amp service. I paid less for one big Crown than I did for the Soundcraftsmen, and from an LH forum member. The other Crown was less than half that and almost-local off Ebay. :dont-know Go figure. Recently a beat-up Amcron PS-400 went for $436 so, per usual, there's no logic in Ebay sale prices.

The Pro-Power-Four is a fine amp. In my opinion if you pay under $250 for it even if you don't like it your loss would be minimal if you decided to resell it. Nearly every one I've seen has that voltage label on it. By that time Soundcraftsmen was pretty much doing direct sales and had few dealers left anywhere other than California. My latest system was bought directly through Soundcraftsmen and shipped to Korea for a Canadian diplomat in 1991. I also have a letter from Soundcraftsmen with a 1989 price list offering to sell direct with a 25% discount off list price because I lived in an unrepresented area. List price for the Pro-Power-Four at that time was $849.

Good luck on the auction. Remember, if it costs you only $50 or $100 more to get something you really want, what's the big deal? That was a tank of gas this time last year. :D

JBLAddict
05-18-2009, 08:58 AM
There's a listing for an S800 (MTX Soundcraftsment), so I'm guessing it's a >'93 model?

do you know of this model, it's 205WPC, was there a group of amps after the MTX acq. that would not be considered true Soundcraftsmen designs to use Dome's words?

Titanium Dome
05-18-2009, 10:42 AM
I have an S800--well in fact I have three S800s if you count the two JBL Synthesis® S800s I just got! :D However, it's the Soundcraftsmen unit we're discussing, so sorry about the detour.

It's in the distinguished line of Soundcraftsmen's half-size or shoebox amps. The most notable members are the PCR800, S800, and S860. They're all excellent MOSFET based designs with 200+ Watts per channel. The PCR800 used Hitachi MOSFETS and the S860 used Exicon, so there was a sonic, subtle difference in output. I'm not sure what's in the S800.

All three designs are reliable, long-lasting, and great sounding. They also have fans that occasionally work hard to cool that compact enclosure. Rack-mounted in a closet, that's not a concern. Out in the room it bothers some people. It never bothered me, and 99% of the time it's whisper quiet.

Titanium Dome
05-18-2009, 10:45 AM
Here you go. It's a sucky picture, but it shows four of my PCR800s running in tandem. The S800 looks virtually the same.

JBLAddict
05-18-2009, 10:57 AM
Thanks Doug for the quick response,

here's the S800 I see on ebay
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140321275391&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123

since it's labeled "MTX', is this S800 in the same line as the PCR800 and S860?

again, I'm looking for an A400 but getting impatient waiting for the good unit to appear for sale......

Titanium Dome
05-18-2009, 11:16 AM
Thanks Doug for the quick response,

here's the S800 I see on ebay
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140321275391&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123

since it's labeled "MTX', is this S800 in the same line as the PCR800 and S860?

again, I'm looking for an A400 but getting impatient waiting for the good unit to appear for sale......

That's a good price and the shipping is reasonable (if it's properly packed). It's definitely in the PCR800 MOSFET lineage. I wouldn't hesitate to buy it, knowing if I didn't like it or if an A400 came along I could get all my money back by reselling it.

JBLAddict
05-18-2009, 11:43 AM
thanks, I now see both the S860 and S800 as 205WPC '93 units on the audiogon bluebook site, though why two nearly identical models in the same year??

also, I tracked some of the recent Hafler threads, and had my interest peaked by some of their 90's units, such as the Pro5000(325WPC) and Pro500(250WPC) units..... you know the L7s these are intended for so I appreciate your opinions, how would you compare some of the 90s vintage Haflers against the Soundcraftsmen units?

BMWCCA
05-18-2009, 07:13 PM
again, I'm looking for an A400 but getting impatient waiting for the good unit to appear for sale......

So why did you pass on this one? http://ebayitem.com/180352549386 :dont-know

(Pro-Power-Four sold 5/8/09 for $207.)

JBLAddict
05-18-2009, 08:27 PM
So why did you pass on this one? http://ebayitem.com/180352549386 :dont-know

(Pro-Power-Four sold 5/8/09 for $207.)


well, couple reasons. mainly, the contents of this thread. TiD's statements about the A400 are compelling, and your statements about the PP4 being less than an even older Crown unit.......both from experience on the actual L7 I plan to mate it up to.

secondly, I'm a limited collection guy, and want to have (and am willing to pay for) ONE best amp(for now) to go with my current system. I only have both the L5 and L7 because like you, was fearful of the L7's finicky nature per TiD's cautions and after countless months of procrastination, pulled the trigger on that $240 L5 set in PA when it came up (my first speakers since the L100).

When you grabbed your first set of L7 and said he was being overly cautious I found myself lusting after that fuller richer sound and jumped on Ti's pair in the selloff. Keep in mind that I'm currently powering them with a brand new 75WPC Harman Kardon AVR.....which I think sounds pretty decent but realize probably pales in comparison to quality power...

so....I'm trying to weigh all the recommendations in this forum, among other places, and make one solid buy that I am happy with. I was all set with the A400 decision, but they just don't come up often, so I decided to consult the experts on the rest of the SC line, and your feedback was enough to make me decide to just holdout for the A400. When the S800 came up this week, it was new to me so I thought I'd ask. Even with Dougs recommendation, as much as I'm tempted to grab it, I'm still a little hesitant...mainly because I've read SOOOO much about how critical the L7's response is to the amp selection, that I don't want to blow it....in the span of a couple months I've gone from a set of L100s and a 15yr old Kenwood, to a set of L5, L7, and a $800 AVR, I probably have one purchase left (this one) before my wife tells me to cool it...:)

hjames
05-19-2009, 02:45 AM
Its a moot point - someone saw it and snapped it up while i was having first coffee this morning!
600w in bridged mono mode, hmmm?
Thats a sub shaker indeed!




here's the S800 I see on ebay
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140321275391&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123
......

BMWCCA
05-19-2009, 07:23 AM
well, couple reasons. mainly, the contents of this thread. TiD's statements about the A400 are compelling, and your statements about the PP4 being less than an even older Crown unit.......both from experience on the actual L7 I plan to mate it up to.I see. But then I was comparing the Pro-Power-Four to a Crown PS-400, not another Soundcraftsmen. I don't think T-dome ever said the Pro-Power's weren't the same (or better) amp than the others, just that the switch-gear seemed prone to having their buttons go missing. But then considering the others have no buttons . . .

I have no other Soundcraftsmen amps to compare to the Pro-Power but all the reviews (one linked below) seemed to imply the circuitry was the same and the Pro-Power performed either identically or maybe even better than the 800-series shoe-box predecessors and contemporaries. http://www.soundcraftsmen.com/test_reports.htm

I like my Pro-Power-Four lot. I just like the Crown better, for personal reasons that may or may not make sense or even be a reference for anyone else wanting the Soundcraftsmen amp. If you're looking for a 200wpc Soundcraftsmen for around $200 you probably shouldn't kick the Pro-Power out of the running just because they actually have switches on the front panel!

JBLAddict
05-19-2009, 02:37 PM
Its a moot point - someone saw it and snapped it up while i was having first coffee this morning!
600w in bridged mono mode, hmmm?
Thats a sub shaker indeed!

only moot in the sense that that person was me ;)

after reading my response I realized it was time to stop splitting hairs and jump in.......

hjames
05-19-2009, 02:42 PM
only moot in the sense that that person was me ;)

after reading my response I realized it was time to stop splitting hairs and jump in.......

Waitaminnit! I saw that between 5 and 6ayem ... Eastern!
Mighty early for a Californian

Thats alright - you saved me from explaining to Emma why i bought yet another piece of gear ... ! :rotfl:

JBLAddict
05-19-2009, 03:51 PM
Waitaminnit! I saw that between 5 and 6ayem ... Eastern!
Mighty early for a Californian

Thats alright - you saved me from explaining to Emma why i bought yet another piece of gear ... ! :rotfl:

click the link, the BIN ended at 21:32:34 PST on 5/18 so about 9:30PM my time last night?

JBLAddict
05-23-2009, 08:01 PM
still waiting on my S800

but anyone know what model this unit is??

BMWCCA
05-23-2009, 11:58 PM
...anyone know what model this unit is??:confused: Was there supposed to be a link here?

JBLAddict
05-24-2009, 10:40 AM
:confused: Was there supposed to be a link here?

oops, thanks BMW....here they are.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=190309768903
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=190309781501

the descriptions claiming complete ignorance to what is being sold is nice tactic.....

short_circutz
07-25-2009, 02:12 PM
thanks so much guys for the detailed explanations, that was exactly the type of information I was after, especially from others that own L7/L5 like yourselves.....in fact it was your input on the L Series thread that has had my humming and hawing over the 80s models vs. the 90s models.....

I was outbid on an A400 on ebay right here in my own zipcode (!) about three months ago, and shortly thereafter realized that I faarrr underbid, the winner took the thing for $150!! and it was spotless...I'm still :banghead: over this

The only ones that have popped up since have been the Aseries "pro" model (with the orange lines across the face) which get no bids, I'm assuming because as you say they were DJ used and driven hard?

So....I've thought seriously about the ProPower4, considered the PCR800 but they always look so beatup and the linked test reports (which I've read many times) cite a fan noise issue, and very slightly considered the MA5002 but don't want something that old that sells at a premium over the A400 and ProPower....

bottom line....there's a very clean looking ProPower4 up for auction now, still under $200, comes with the manuals and CoC, and is "fully functional".....I'd really like to hold out for the A400 but if the only risk is paint and buttons, what would be a reasonable top bid?? and does the A400 hold any other inherent benefits that make it worth holding out for? (no fan noise, performance, etc)

thanks again
Dunno if anyone is interested, but there's a PCR800 in mint condition being sold locally here, as well as two of the (if I remember correctly) 20-12A eq's. They are located in a local store that sells some vintage equipment. If interested, pm me and I'll get you contact info.

JBLAddict
08-17-2009, 05:04 PM
The last S800 I bought from earlier in this thread is the only non-integrated amp I've ever purchased, but this matching S800 has now come up 3 times, reduced in price from 195, to 150, now to 135

how leary should one be of a DJ used amp like this one, as clearly indicated by the traveling enclosure?

I'd love to have another identical S800 to finally two amp bi-wire my L7's, but don't know how much relative wear goes into "commerically used" Soundcraftsmen

Titanium Dome
08-17-2009, 10:51 PM
The last S800 I bought from earlier in this thread is the only non-integrated amp I've ever purchased, but this matching S800 has now come up 3 times, reduced in price from 195, to 150, now to 135

how leary should one be of a DJ used amp like this one, as clearly indicated by the traveling enclosure?

I'd love to have another identical S800 to finally two amp bi-wire my L7's, but don't know how much relative wear goes into "commerically used" Soundcraftsmen

I've gotten some Soundcraftsmen shoeboxes that looked like they lived a tough life, but only one of them ever disappointed me. I should have checked it as soon as I got it, but it was a reserve amp for a future project, and by the time I checked it out I'd already had it for two months. :banghead: One channel worked; one didn't.

I gave it to my son when he visited from Ohio last year. He wrapped duct tape around it like a handle and carried it on board the plane home. He's been using the good channel to run his subwoofer for over a year.

It's always a gamble, but five out of the six amps that I bought worked fine and were within spec, regardless of appearance.

JBLAddict
08-18-2009, 10:27 PM
I've gotten some Soundcraftsmen shoeboxes that looked like they lived a tough life, but only one of them ever disappointed me. I should have checked it as soon as I got it, but it was a reserve amp for a future project, and by the time I checked it out I'd already had it for two months. :banghead: One channel worked; one didn't.

I gave it to my son when he visited from Ohio last year. He wrapped duct tape around it like a handle and carried it on board the plane home. He's been using the good channel to run his subwoofer for over a year.

It's always a gamble, but five out of the six amps that I bought worked fine and were within spec, regardless of appearance.


thanks, how do you do the hookup a)one amp per speaker b)one amp for the HF/MFs, other for LFs ??

Titanium Dome
08-19-2009, 07:45 AM
thanks, how do you do the hookup a)one amp per speaker b)one amp for the HF/MFs, other for LFs ??

I've tried it both ways. If you place the amps near the speakers, then one channel for HF and one channel for LF from the same amp. If the amps are in a central location, which is more typical I guess, then it's convenient to use one for HF to both channels and another for LF to both channels. JBL even suggests the possibility of one amp chosen for its LF power and another for its HF characteristics.

When using identical amps, I don't think it makes much difference.

BMWCCA
11-02-2009, 05:42 PM
...well, I could be if I wanted to be.

Looks like at least two people thought this Pro-Power Four was worth over $300, plus $40 shipping!

http://ebayitem.com/220500626785

A nice-looking Pro-Power Four got eleven bids with a winning bid of $341, though it did include the bridge adapter, not that you'd ever need/want it. And amazingly all the knobs were still on it. ;)

JBLAddict
11-09-2009, 10:33 PM
I saw that PP4 and was watching as the bidding rocketed, $341, wow.

So..... another S800 came up a few weeks ago, with a min bid of $85, which I was the only bidder and won at that price. It arrived today in very very nice shape, better than the first in this thread for which I paid $200, has dim lights, and a strong smell of ash-tray coming out of the fans which took months to get rid of! Only thing is this S800 has an S860 manual and CoC, so hoping that I'm not the victim of a front plate swap? (Funny side note, both CoCs are signed by Steve Palandri, but in very different handwriting)

It's clear that collectors/nostalgics have no place for a Soundcraftsmen with "MTX" on the front, but I only care about the performance, so if it's pure Soundcraftsmen inside, I'm good with it.

Bought the Y cables and banana plugs this weekend, and just finished hooking up the "two wire bi-amp" (can't believe in one year I went from having a pair of L100A and a mid-range Kenwood integrated, to bi-amped L7s fed from 4x230W!)

Impressions of my first ever bi-amp? Well, it sounds remarkably good, crisp, clear, articulate, while at the same time that special L7 depth, but not to the point where I can tell or recall with certainty, after the hookups, where/how it sounded better than the single amp.

Assuming the LF would steal most of the juice in the single amp config, I'm listening in particular for the improvement in the MF/HF having their own dedicated current source. The MF/HF sound just great, but it sounded great to my ears on a single amp as well. The vocals are so smooth, the highs are brilliant, and the soundstage is downright phenomenal, which might be the clue to the improvement, the vocals now seem to be floating around the room in a way in which they didn't off the single amp...will need some time with the kids out of the house to drive them hard and make a more thorough assessment...wish there was an easy way to quickly a/b such a thing

Titanium Dome
11-09-2009, 10:59 PM
Uh, the easiest way I found was to have several pairs, but then I shipped a pair to my son in MI, then sold a pair ;), so now I've only got one pair left, plus a spare.

I'm not surprised you like them bi-amped, even passively. They'll drink the power, and like a bar at closing time, the more juice you get the better everything seems.

BMWCCA
11-10-2009, 07:48 AM
Maybe your next step will be active bi-amping using an external network and moving the blue jumper on the L7 network to isolate the LF from the rest. I intend to experiment with all those options at some point while I still have two-pair of L7s but space is always the not-so-endless frontier. ;)

JBLAddict
11-10-2009, 09:41 AM
First, I need to figure a way to have it so that when I power up the AVR, the amps power up as well..... having to separately power up (and then down) two amps, the AVR is a hassle--any suggestions?

I re-read the L7 supplement yesterday [while listening to some good folky Jack Johnson with that excellent cymbal, snare, bass drum, vocal, guitar combo (mmm so good!)]. Entering that next frontier of active bi-amp is quite a leap and one I'm not sure the necessity of. Having had my eyes opened in Japan with those fine fine Hi-end JBLs paired directly to the Dartzeel, Mc, Luxman, Marantz amps, I'm of the mind that the full speaker design, including it's xover network provides the output the designer wanted assuming the amp/pre are up to snuff--I would never consider bypassing the K2's network and the L7's network is no slouch, so the appeal/curiousity isn't there for me (at this point).

The things I'm thinking next are 1)pairing up some other sets of speakers to my new electronics, and more objectively assessing the L7's worth (considering I still only own L5/L7/L100A). In fact, having been so smitten in particular with the (new) 4338 on my trip, I'm starting to think of a vintage horn system to do my own L7/L300 type comparison, though the cost and size are huge deterents there. 2) I really really want to get a tube amp for the MF/HF and understand what I'm missing there. The L7 supplement explicitly states "many serious listeners prefer the midrange and treble sound quality produced by tube amplifiers" and CHagen in a PM strongly recommended tubes for the HF/MF, so that's two pretty serious endorsements for this path, though the output level mismatch without EQ is a challenge.

BMWCCA
11-10-2009, 12:58 PM
Entering that next frontier of active bi-amp is quite a leap and one I'm not sure the necessity of. ...I'm of the mind that the full speaker design, including it's xover network provides the output the designer wanted assuming the amp/pre are up to snuff--I would never consider bypassing the K2's network and the L7's network is no slouch, so the appeal/curiousity isn't there for me (at this point).Maybe, but then I'm not sure the "passive bi-amp" that JBL describes and that you've undertaken is any more beneficial than just running a larger amp. :dont-know

As to the designer's intent; I doubt the internal blue jumper referred to in your manual as a "modification" done by a dealer would even be there if there wasn't some perceived benefit to be had by running true bi-amps with an external network. Someday maybe I'll try it and see. :)

JBLAddict
11-10-2009, 02:49 PM
Maybe, but then I'm not sure the "passive bi-amp" that JBL describes and that you've undertaken is any more beneficial than just running a larger amp. :dont-know

As to the designer's intent; I doubt the internal blue jumper referred to in your manual as a "modification" done by a dealer would even be there if there wasn't some perceived benefit to be had by running true bi-amps with an external network. Someday maybe I'll try it and see. :)

good points, both areas are a bit over my head, so I'm more guessing theorizing that anything else.

On the two amp bi-wire vs. a larger amp, either the dedicated current source prevents the LF from stealing all the juice/headroom, or a bigger benefit (which I more suspect) is the ability to select specific amps per frequency range, ala the tubes for MF/HF. In Japan, the S4600 and Everest2 both had tubes on the MF/HF (Mac275 on the S4600), both sounded beautiful. The 4338 however had two identical solid state Marantz, and for the money was THE most impressive system I heard that day, including the K2. (My pix in the all day listening thread show the components pretty well.)

On the blue jumper, I'm up for an education but it seems to me this is for the extreme hobbyist/specialist to experiment with personal preferences that essentially make it a new speaker by substituting a super-critical, character defining component in the xover. As an analogy, I can put a new woofer on the K2 that I personally might like better, but that no longer makes it a K2.:( Just because JBL provides the option I don't think detracts from the designer's intended whole that includes the xover.

BMWCCA
11-10-2009, 05:25 PM
On the blue jumper, I'm up for an education but it seems to me this is for the extreme hobbyist/specialist to experiment with personal preferences that essentially make it a new speaker by substituting a super-critical, character defining component in the xover. As an analogy, I can put a new woofer on the K2 that I personally might like better, but that no longer makes it a K2.:( Just because JBL provides the option I don't think detracts from the designer's intended whole that includes the xover.I'm not arguing the validity of it because I don't understand the simplest of electronic engineering. So I'll just let the designer's own words make the case:


I might have the schematic somewhere for the L-7 crossover. I also have an update crossover schematic....somewhere....that was SUPPOSED to become the L-7DX. This was going to be a high-end, very smooth L-7 that sold with a DX-1 so it would be specifically used in the bi-amped mode.

note: the DX-1 is an active external crossover


The jumper is a wire with it's tail connected to a point between the woofer inductor and the woofer hot lead. In normal mode (or whatever I/we called it), it connects to the non-grounded end of the orange capacitors, making a second order woofer section. The other fast-on tab is electrically in front of the woofer inductor. So when you move the small-tabbed end to that tab for bi-amp/external crossover use, not only do you disconnect the capacitor, but you short the inductor thus eliminating the passive crossover. (That one took a few days - it's been 15 years!!!!.....and if I'm wrong, let me know and I'll take one of my spares apart, but that's what I recall).

BMWCCA
11-10-2009, 06:14 PM
I saw that PP4 and was watching as the bidding rocketed, $341, wow.

So..... another S800 came up a few weeks ago, with a min bid of $85, which I was the only bidder and won at that price.People must like the LEDs; a nice Pro-Power Three just went for $122 (same amp and chassis w/o LEDs): http://ebayitem.com/220504813781

JBLAddict
11-10-2009, 08:49 PM
I'm not arguing the validity of it because I don't understand the simplest of electronic engineering. So I'll just let the designer's own words make the case:



note: the DX-1 is an active external crossover

well, you're right, his words. He also mentioned in a PM he put the smooth dome tweeters in his, so apparently, in addition to the active external crossover, a tweeter upgrade, and his mention of planning to tube his MF/HF, seems like a LOT of effort to "smooth things out"

JBLAddict
11-10-2009, 09:10 PM
just scanning through the L series thread, and noted Chris mentioned both in PMs and in the thread about this smooth dome tweeter, does anyone have a guess what tweeter he's referring to that would have fit in the Lseries??

maybe this SC turned Lseries discussion belongs back in the Lseries thread?

BMWCCA
11-10-2009, 09:46 PM
just scanning through the L series thread, and noted Chris mentioned both in PMs and in the thread about this smooth dome tweeter, does anyone have a guess what tweeter he's referring to that would have fit in the Lseries??034? :dont-know
Or if he was practicing his carpentry skills, maybe the 044? He doesn't specify whether it was phenolic or titanium, that I'm aware.

JBLAddict
11-11-2009, 10:00 PM
after a couple days listening, I'll add my two amp bi-wire assessment back in the L-series thread.

L100t Owner
11-19-2009, 05:30 PM
Did the original poster ever find a Soundcraftsmen amp?

Please go here: http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=270498#post270498

Tommy
12-16-2009, 04:56 PM
thanks, I now see both the S860 and S800 as 205WPC '93 units on the audiogon bluebook site, though why two nearly identical models in the same year??

Hi, I'm new to site, so please forgive me if this info has already been offered.

FYI: I believe (though not certain) that the only difference between the S800 and the S860 is the choice of input hardware. S800 has phono jacks. S860 has 1/4" phone jacks.

Also, can someone please help me with a schematic? I have an S860 that I would like to repair but have been unable to find a schematic for years.

Thanks,

Tommy

JBLAddict
12-16-2009, 05:46 PM
I actually did purchase not one, but two S800s (the 1993 MTX/Soundcraftsmen variety, over the PM840/860 from 1985/1986). The first was $200 and the second was $85

have my L7s biamped with the preouts in a HK-AVR L7, L5, EC35 5.0 HT and am pretty darn happy with it. Appreciate the all the advice in this thread....


Did the original poster ever find a Soundcraftsmen amp?

Please go here: http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=270498#post270498

RKLee
12-19-2009, 08:20 PM
Wow, kind of late to the party, but what is so special about those Soundcraftmen amps people are going through a lot of trouble to obtain. When the retailer Fedco was in business you can buy them by the trainload fulls. I have one of the older Soundcraftmen PE2217 pre-amps. It's about 20 years old at least, and I still use it to this day, and it has never failed me. Wouldn't a current production Crown D- series amp fill the bill? Those Crowns are bullet proof, I am using a set of D75s

BMWCCA
12-19-2009, 09:34 PM
Wouldn't a current production Crown D- series amp fill the bill? Those Crowns are bullet proof, I am using a set of D75sPriced a new D75A recently?

rickedd46
01-02-2010, 05:09 PM
Hello everyone,

I'm new to the forum.

I used to be a salesman for their products from 1987 until MTX bought them and annihilated them by the mid 90's.

We were also the main "used" equipment store in New Jersey for several years so I have heard a lot of stuff.

I'm going to talk specifically about the lateral mosfets models in particular.

1st generation (early 80's to mid 90's).

(POWER OUTPUT CONSERVATIVELY STATED BTW).

PRO POWER 8 - (FULL CHASSIS, DUAL FANS, BRIDGING INCLUDED, 1/4" AND BALANCED INPUTS, 12 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, 375W/CH@8R, 600W/CH@4R, 900W/CH@2R, 1200W/MONO@8R, 1800W/MONO@4R).

PM1600 - (FULL CHASSIS, DUAL FANS, BRIDGING INCLUDED, 1/4" AND BALANCED INPUTS, 12 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, 375W/CH@8R, 600W/CH@4R, 900W/CH@2R, 1200W/MONO@8R, 1800W/MONO@4R).

PM840 - (SHOEBOX, 6 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, RCA INPUTS, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED, 205W/CH8R, 315W/CH4R, 275W/CH2R, 600W MONO, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

PCR800 - (SHOEBOX, 6 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, RCA INPUTS, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED, 205W/CH8R, 315W/CH4R, 275W/CH2R, 600W/MONO EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

PM860 - (SHOEBOX, 6 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, RCA INPUTS, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED, HIGH CURRENT, 205W/CH@8R, 315W/CH@4R, 450W/CH@2R, 600W/MONO@8R, 900W/MONO@4R EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

PRO POWER 4 - (FULL CHASSIS ,LED DISPLAY, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, OUTPUT FOR 4 SPEAKERS, FAN COOLED, 205W/CH @8R, 315W/CH @4R, 450W/CH @2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE, 600W/MONO@8R, 900W/MONO@4R).

PRO POWER 3 - (FULL CHASSIS, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, OUTPUT FOR 4 SPEAKERS, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED, 205W/CH@8R, 315W/CH@4R, 450W/CH@2R, 600W/MONO@8R, 900W/MONO@4R EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

PRO POWER 1 - (SHOEBOX, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, RCA INPUTS, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED, 205W/CH@8R, 315W/CH@4R, 450W/CH@2R, 600W/MONO@8R, 900W/MONO@4R EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

PRO POWER 10 - (FULL CHASSIS 4 CH, 2 PM860S IN ONE PACKAGE, 6 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, DUAL LED DISPLAY, DUAL PCR PS, DUAL FANS, A BEAST, 205W/CH@8R, 315W/CH@4R, 450W/CH@2R or 600WX2@8R and 900WX2@4R, HIGH CURRENT, INTEGRATED BRIDGING).

PRO REFERENCE TWO - (FULL CHASSIS, LED DISPLAY, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, OUTPUT FOR 4 SPKRS, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 125W/CH@8R, 190W/CH@4R, 270W@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

PA2X200 - (FULL CHASSIS, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, OUTPUT FOR 4 SPKRS, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 125W/CH@8R, 190W/CH@4R, 270W/CH@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

A2502 - (FULL CHASSIS, LED DISPLAY, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, OUTPUT FOR 4 SPKRS, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 125W/CH@8R, 190W/CH@4R, 270W/CH@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

RA5502 - (FULL CHASSIS, LED DISPLAY, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, OUTPUT FOR 4 SPKRS, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 125W/CH@8R, 190W/CH@4R, 270W/CH@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

RA5501 - (FULL CHASSIS, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 125W/CH@8R, 190W/CH@4R, 270W/CH@2R).

A2801 - (FULL CHASSIS, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 125W/CH@8R, 190W/CH@4R, 270W/CH@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

300X4 - (FULL CHASSIS 4 CH, 2 PM860S IN ONE PACKAGE, 6 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, DUAL PCR PS, DUAL FANS, A BEAST, 205W/CH@8R, 315W/CH@4R, 450W/CH@2R or 600WX2@8R and
900WX2@4R, HIGH CURRENT, INTEGRATED BRIDGING).

DJ900 - (FULL CHASSIS, FULL CHASSIS 4 CH, 2 PM860S IN ONE PACKAGE, 6 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, 1/4" AND BALANCED INPUTS, HIGH CURRENT, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED 205W/CH@8R, 315WCH@4R, 450W/CH@2R, 600W/MONO@8R, 900W/MONO@4R INTEGRATED BRIDGING).

DJ600 - (FULL CHASSIS, FULL CHASSIS 4 CH, 2 PM860S IN ONE PACKAGE, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, 1/4" AND BALANCED INPUTS, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 125W/CH@8R, 190W/CH@4R, 270W@2R, INTEGRATED BRIDGING).

NEWER GENERATION WHEN MERGED WITH MTX:

A900PRO - (FULL CHASSIS, DUAL FANS, INTERNAL BRIDGING, 1/4" AND BALANCED INPUTS, NEUTRIK, FULL CHASSIS 4 CH, 2 PM860S IN ONE PACKAGE, 12 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH 375W/CH@8R, 600W/CH@4R, 900W/CH@2R, 1200W/MONO@8R, 1800W/MONO@4R, INTEGRATED BRIDGING).

A400PRO - (FULL CHASSIS, 6 HITACHI TO247 PLASTIC MOSFETS PER CH, 1/4" AND BALANCED INPUTS, HIGH CURRENT, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED 205W/CH@8R, 315WCH@4R, 450W/CH@2R, 600W/MONO@8R, INTEGRATED BRIDGING).

A200PRO - (FULL CHASSIS, 6 HITACHI TO247 PLASTIC MOSFETS PER CH, 1/4" AND BALANCED INPUTS, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 125W/CH@8R, 190W/CH@4R, 270W/CH@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

A100PRO - (FULL CHASSIS, 2 HITACHI TO247 PLASTIC MOSFETS PER CH, 1/4" INPUTS, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 60W/CH@8R, 90W/CH@4R, 135W/CH@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

A400 - (FULL CHASSIS, 6 MOSFETS PER CH, RCA INPUTS, HIGH CURRENT, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED, 6 HITACHI TO247 PLASTIC MOSFETS PER CH 205W/CH@8R, 315WCH@4R, 450W/CH@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

A200 - (FULL CHASSIS, 4 MOSFETS PER CH, RCA INPUTS, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 6 HITACHI TO247 PLASTIC MOSFETS PER CH 125W/CH@8R, 190W/CH@4R, 270W@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

A100 - (FULL CHASSIS, 2 HITACHI TO247 PLASTIC MOSFETS PER CH, RCA INPUTS, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 60W/CH@8R, 90W/CH@4R, 135W/CH@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

S800 - (SHOEBOX, 4 EXICON TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, RCA INPUTS, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED, 205W/CH@8R, 315W/CH@4R, 450W/CH@2R, 600W/MONO@8R EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

S860 - (SHOEBOX, 6 EXICON TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, RCA INPUTS, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED, HIGH CURRENT, 205W/CH@8R, 315W/CH@4R, 450W/CH@2R, 600W/MONO@8R, 900W/MONO@4R EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

Any errors on the description please tell.

Now,

The story with these amplifiers is that during their production years according for those in the know in hi fi they weren't good for hi end and according to the DJs they weren't good for professional use, go figure.

I have tube amps, class D amps and I'm thinking of building one of Nelson Pass class A designs.

If one reads all over the web it seems that the general idea is that there's no perfect amplifier and neither are these.

But I have to say they sound extremely good.

After several A-B tests the newer MTX Soundcraftsmen seem to sound a little cleaner than the older models. It must be taken into account that the capacitors in the old amps are over 20 years old and that component technology has improved vastly. Also the use of the newer Profusion and Magnatec mosfets might make a difference in some of the newer models. This amplifiers are a huge bargain. I have bought several ones in horrible condition and since the sound comes from the "circuit" I just put them on a wood plank or buy a new chassis.

I have invited some naysayers to do a blind test with some of their amps but they refuse.

If anyone is interested in schematics email me and I'll gladly cooperate with you.

BTW,

I have over 30 Soundcraftsmen amps and I love them all.:bouncy:

BMWCCA
01-02-2010, 05:52 PM
If anyone is interested in schematics email me and I'll gladly cooperate with you.

BTW,

I have over 30 Soundcraftsmen amps and I love them all.:bouncy:

Welcome, and thanks for the information.

I hope you'll hang around in case I need your help in the future! ;)

Soundcraftsmen PE2217 (since new), DX4200 (2), Pro-Control Four (2), Pro-Tuner Four, Pro-EQ 44 (2), Pro-PT TWO, Pro-Power Four, DC2215 (2)

JBLAddict
01-02-2010, 07:45 PM
wow, great information, too bad you weren't here when I was agonizing for months of which model to buy :D

So, few questions, how does having 6 mosfets vs 4 in the S800/S860 affect performance? In my amp ignorance I had no idea there were multiple chips per channel :blink:

for what reason did the MTX models switch to Exicon from Hitachi?

lastly, when you say Profusion and Magnatec in the "newer models" you mean in models of SC or other current brands?

thanks and welcome....

rickedd46
01-02-2010, 09:54 PM
wow, great information, too bad you weren't here when I was agonizing for months of which model to buy :D

So, few questions, how does having 6 mosfets vs 4 in the S800/S860 affect performance? In my amp ignorance I had no idea there were multiple chips per channel :blink:

for what reason did the MTX models switch to Exicon from Hitachi?

lastly, when you say Profusion and Magnatec in the "newer models" you mean in models of SC or other current brands?

thanks and welcome....

Hello guys,

Thanks for the welcoming.

I've always felt kind of an alien for liking these amps which everyone seems to put down. As a used gear salesperson I had hands on experience with a lot of 70's, 80's and 90's gear and spent countless hours listening to stuff that was hyper expensive and horrible sounding to cheap stuff that sounded very good.

JBLAddict,

Good questions...

Any of the fan cooled pcr powered amps I mentioned which have 4 instead of 6 mosfets per channel are actually identical in circuitry to each other but the 4s were cheaper by at least $75.00 to a $100.00.

The extra 2 transistors give it higher current capability, watts stay pretty much the same since the power supply is exactly the same but it has the enough current to satisfy the demands of all six/ch.

You can actually feel a stronger punch from the 6 mosfet/ch IMO.

You can actually add the 2 missing mosfets since the space to connect them are there, except for a little issue...

These amplifiers are class ab which means that at a certain point the negative mosfets (NPN) are off while the positives (PNP) are on and viceversa. So matching mosfets is important to make sure they share the load as much as possible specially when more than a pair are used. Imagine two guys sawing a big tree, one on each side, swithching from pulling to pushing as they happily saw, then imagine that the exact center of the saw is where they switch from pushing to pulling, one guy is the PNP and the other the NPN.

Now imagine adding 1 more guy per side but the guy added to the PNP side happens to be 40% stronger than the guy added to the NPN side. This would mean a more stressful position for his partner NPN since he's doing a big amount of his job. Inside an amplifier this means overheating, reduced life of that specific NPN mosfet and possibly early failure depending how hard the amp is pushed.

So to make it short adding the 2 extra mosfets per ch can only be done right if all 12 transistors are bought together already matched. There's usually a fee for matched mosfets. There's an upside to this because you don't have to buy more than you need to try to match them yourself. Exicons and magnatecs are drop in replacements and some people (me included) think they sound better than the hitachis (could be circuit related, updated parts, etc.)

Hitachis run expensive, very expensive, even used. Magnatecs and exicons are way cheaper specially by amounts of 10 and up. MTX-Soundcraftsmen started using exicons when hitachi stopped production. These mosfet were exclusively for audio use not for industrial use and a lot of hi end brands from Hafler to Moscode to Perreaux have used the same exact mosfets.

Renesas (hitachi) makes the plastic ones but I don't know if they make the metal ones.

Hint: If you have a MTX-Soundcraftsmen S800 or S860 with the usual antique serial number they have hitachis. On the other hand if the serial code has MTX-Soundcraftsmen and next to it a barcode it has exicons. ( I could be wrong ).

Can I post pics from my hard drive here?

And if yes how?

Thanks.

BMWCCA
01-02-2010, 10:10 PM
Can I post pics from my hard drive here?

And if yes how?

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=817

rickedd46
01-02-2010, 10:29 PM
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=817

Thank you.

rickedd46
01-02-2010, 11:28 PM
The green board is from a PM860 or DJ900 or 300X4 or PRO POWER 10.

The beige boards are from a PRO POWER 1,3,4 or PCR800 or PM840.

The 2 channels are on one board.

The feedback resistors are different on these boards depending if the amplifier has an input board or not.

The small board attached to the black heatsink with the temperature sensor is from an A200 or A200 PRO (1 ch) which is identical to the A400 and A400 PRO board except for a removed resistor which is connected to the sensor in the PCR power supply. Since the A200 and A200 PRO use a linear power supply this is omitted.

One of the pics has all parts numbered per channel, if you need a full sized pic email me.

rickedd46
01-02-2010, 11:32 PM
Part2

rickedd46
01-02-2010, 11:34 PM
3

rickedd46
01-03-2010, 08:25 AM
I was looking at the schematics today and noticed that the earliest PCR800s (the ones with the sided power switch, vented front cover and blinking power light) have a board which only acomodates 4 mosfets per channel, I remember when I vacuumed one of these. These boards should be numbered 1699. I don't have any of these amps but I'll be buying some in the future. My friend in florida has a pair of these bridged through a PRO CONTROL THREE preamplifier, he has a huge sound room and they rock the walls and at the same time provide a very clean sound. The newer boards with space for 6 mosfets per channel are numbered 1806.

Cheers.

JBLAddict
01-03-2010, 08:56 AM
very cool stuff, thanks again for taking the time to load the pix and provide explanations. You should not feel odd about your affinity for Soundcraftsmen products, they sell ridiculously well on ebay, with the more vintage (80s) models getting by far the most demand/bids......but there are legions of people out there buying this stuff 20+ yrs later, which seems to be some vindication for you!

In that regard, it was easier for me to grab the MTX S800s at much cheaper prices than the typical 80s model, as the "collectors" seem to want little to do with MTX branded gear. I simply wanted performance so if the guts were CA made and of the same caliber I was happy to take the bargain. I originally was looking for an A400, which were very hard to come by, so I opted for the S800. With the A100/200/400 being from 1992 and the S800/60 from 1993, any comment on the relative performance/price between those two series of the same timeframe? (I don't know the MSRP for any of them or how they were relatively positioned in the market)

I checked my two S800s and they both have the bar code with MTX so I guess these both would be Exicon....good to know this.

Can you clarify what you mean by newer "Profusion/Magnatec mosfets in some of the newer models"? Profusion at least, appears to be a distributor of among other things, Exicon mosfets, do you mean the newer MTX-Soundcraftsmen might sound cleaner in part due to the Exicon mosfets which comes from Profusion?

thanks

JBLAddict
01-03-2010, 08:58 AM
btw, the green board has a smiley face with the words "I love PM860, S860" written on there, was this a stock feature;)

rickedd46
01-03-2010, 10:39 AM
very cool stuff, thanks again for taking the time to load the pix and provide explanations. You should not feel odd about your affinity for Soundcraftsmen products, they sell ridiculously well on ebay, with the more vintage (80s) models getting by far the most demand/bids......but there are legions of people out there buying this stuff 20+ yrs later, which seems to be some vindication for you!

In that regard, it was easier for me to grab the MTX S800s at much cheaper prices than the typical 80s model, as the "collectors" seem to want little to do with MTX branded gear. I simply wanted performance so if the guts were CA made and of the same caliber I was happy to take the bargain. I originally was looking for an A400, which were very hard to come by, so I opted for the S800. With the A100/200/400 being from 1992 and the S800/60 from 1993, any comment on the relative performance/price between those two series of the same timeframe? (I don't know the MSRP for any of them or how they were relatively positioned in the market)

I checked my two S800s and they both have the bar code with MTX so I guess these both would be Exicon....good to know this.

Can you clarify what you mean by newer "Profusion/Magnatec mosfets in some of the newer models"? Profusion at least, appears to be a distributor of among other things, Exicon mosfets, do you mean the newer MTX-Soundcraftsmen might sound cleaner in part due to the Exicon mosfets which comes from Profusion?

thanks


The newer amps might sound cleaner for several reasons.

Aging of the caps and other components.
Newer components might measure to better standards or simply sound better.
Transistors in the input stage and gain stage are of higher wattage.

Example.

The earlier models used Motorola MPSL01, MM4003 and 2N3440 (the little metal cans next to the heatsinks on the beige boards and the newer ones use MPSA42, MPSA93 and MPSW42 (plastic ones by the heatsink on the green board).

These transistors are the workhorses which are in the input stage and then the gain stage which then push the signal to the output stage mosfets.

I personally like the looks on the older models with the soundcraftsmen logo in cursive but in reality soundwise I like them all. I don't mind if it has an LED display or not since doesn't affect the sound.

The MTX-Soundcraftsmen models actually have a little better quality stuff inside. The pcr power supply is almost identical with little updates.

Whatever the difference in sound I'm sure can be corrected with very little money since electronic parts of better caliber are not that expensive.

I put that little face in there. :D

I also drew a line to separate the A and B channels.

These amps really make me happy.

Titanium Dome
01-03-2010, 02:56 PM
Welcome and thanks for all the Soundcraftsmen info. It's a bonanza!

I've got a boatload of SC amps:
PCR800 (5)
S800
A2502
Pro Power Three
A100 (3)*
A200 (2)*
A400 (2)*

*Some have MTX on the front, some don't.

Plus plenty of other SC gear DX4100 (2), DX4200 (2), AS1000, AE2000 (3), Pro Control Four, P100, RP2215-R (3), T6200, 3000A, plus lots more...

One of the A100 amps and the P100 preamplifier I bought NIB last year when a mom and pop shop in Orange County closed and cleared out the back room. Both are MTX SC. You can see it all here:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=22432&highlight=sweet+soundcraftsmen+score

Titanium Dome
01-03-2010, 03:05 PM
One of the A100 amps and the P100 preamplifier I bought NIB last year when a mom and pop shop in Orange County closed and cleared out the back room. Both are MTX SC. You can see it all here:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=22432&highlight=sweet+soundcraftsmen+score

Well heck, it's 2010 now, so I guess it's not "last year" that I bought them. ;)

rickedd46
01-04-2010, 10:47 AM
Welcome and thanks for all the Soundcraftsmen info. It's a bonanza!

Thanks.


I've got a boatload of SC amps:
PCR800 (5)
S800
A2502
Pro Power Three
A100 (3)*
A200 (2)*
A400 (2)*

Mucho toys to play with!:D


The final Soundcraftsmen amps, the Soundcraftsmen MTX A100, A200, and A400 (along with their pro counterparts) are the best values in Soundcraftsmen amplifiers.

I definitely agree.

On the other hand if you are willing to do a little work the old ones can be improved specially if the output mosfets are fried.

The PP3 & 4 have an input board (not on the schematic) which serves as a signal amplifier which I removed and then I replaced the value of the feedback resistors to the same value the PP1, PCR800 and PM860 as in the schematic. Btw, the schematic does state the difference in feedback resistors between them.

I will post pics in a few minutes.

rickedd46
01-04-2010, 12:11 PM
PRO POWER 3.

Notice the input board with a TL072 opamp which is one of the most replaced/hated opamps in audio.

Note: When this input board is bypassed the feedback resistors MUST be changed to the recommended values to increase the gain otherwise the output will not be as loud even at full volume. I prefer to bypass it because I prefer the least possible amount of components in the signal path.

rickedd46
01-04-2010, 12:18 PM
A200 PRO barebones.

Also has an input/bridge board that is necessary for bridging but I use this from Rod Elliot's web site.

http://sound.westhost.com/project20.htm

Why? Because the amp can be bridged with 2 resistors instead of a whole circuit which affects sound.



Less is more.:)

rickedd46
01-04-2010, 12:26 PM
A400 prototype just for eye candy.

No input/bridge board on this baby.

Clean powerful sound....cheap.:)

Am I going to get in trouble for posting so many pics?:o:

BTW, there's no serial numbers on some of these because I bought 2 pallets of MTX-Soundcraftsmen gear which seemed to be leftover When they decided to shut it down which also explains the bare front panel.

rickedd46
01-04-2010, 04:40 PM
And one of my setups.

BMWCCA
01-04-2010, 04:47 PM
Obviously the Pro-Reference Two uses the same front panel as the Pro-Power Four but other than no fan on the Reference, how do they differ?

Love the Pro-Control Four. My favorite pre-amp! :applaud:

rickedd46
01-04-2010, 07:56 PM
Obviously the Pro-Reference Two uses the same front panel as the Pro-Power Four but other than no fan on the Reference, how do they differ?

Love the Pro-Control Four. My favorite pre-amp! :applaud:

Hello,

The schematics for the output section for both amplifiers is almost if not identical even if the PCB boards look different.

The power supply and fan on the PP3-4 pushes it to 205W/CH at 8 ohms vs. 125W-140W/CH for the PR2.

The PCR power supply is a lot like a SMPS which everyone is using on the latest class d amps in the diy community but an older and awkward design.
It will keep steady voltage (70-75V) to the output stages even if the voltage form the wall (AC) drops down to 80V.

Linear power supplies (PR2) tend to vary their output voltages as the AC line swings up and down.

I have a Dared SL2000A preamplifier in my bedroom running through a pair of A200s and have switched several times between it and the PC4 pre.

I got to say the PC4 sounds excellent for his age.

I saw one in very good shape go for $60 on ebay and it brought tears to my eyes not because it was cheap but because I couldn't get it.:(

rickedd46
01-04-2010, 08:02 PM
Obviously the Pro-Reference Two uses the same front panel as the Pro-Power Four but other than no fan on the Reference, how do they differ?

Love the Pro-Control Four. My favorite pre-amp! :applaud:

Hello,

The schematics for the output section for both amplifiers is almost if not identical even if the PCB boards look different.

The power supply and fan on the PP3-4 pushes it to 205W/CH at 8 ohms vs. 125W-140W/CH for the PR2.

The PCR power supply is a lot like a SMPS which everyone is using on the latest class d amps in the diy community but an older and awkward design.
It will keep steady voltage (70-75V) to the output stages even if the voltage form the wall (AC) drops down to 80V.

Linear power supplies (PR2) tend to vary their output voltages as the AC line swings up and down.

I have a Dared SL2000A preamplifier in my bedroom running through a pair of A200s and have switched several times between the 2 and I got to say the PC4 sounds excellent for his age.

I saw one in very good shape go for $60 and it brought tears to my eyes not because it was cheap but because I couldn't get it.:(

Titanium Dome
01-04-2010, 08:52 PM
Nice set. Look a lot like my Pro Power Three/Pro Control Four set up, except you've got LEDs on the amp and all the switches stayed on the amp.

This little kit is driving my JBL L250s.

rickedd46
01-05-2010, 11:45 AM
Nice set. Look a lot like my Pro Power Three/Pro Control Four set up, except you've got LEDs on the amp and all the switches stayed on the amp.

This little kit is driving my JBL L250s.

Cool.

That's the same PP3 without LED's I took the picture of the input board.

I have the same eq in excellent condition in the closet.

Maybe I should sell it.

JBL 4645
01-10-2010, 04:40 AM
Wow like the Pro-Reference Two by soundcraftmen like the LED barograph display of fairy-lights. :bouncy:

lgvenable
01-20-2010, 07:35 PM
For all the SoundCraftsman amp lovers:D:nice looking DDR1200 275wpc 8Ω

on the bay, no affiliation:

I'm a BGW/AB Systems fanatic

http://cgi.ebay.com/Soundcraftsmen-DDR1200-MOSFET-Power-Amplifier-Rare_W0QQitemZ330394883945QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_De faultDomain_0?hash=item4ced11d769

william134
03-15-2010, 06:12 AM
Hi everyone,
I was recently given this A2801 amp. Not working naturally - blew fuses even with bridge and boards disconnected. Finally fixed power supply tonight. Negative mains was connected to switch, with positive directly to fuse and no negative transformer connection. OOPS!
I will not know the condition of the outputs till I connect the boards up. Can you please advise where to buy the matched Exicon's.
Can you help me with a schematic for this amplifier.
Thanks Miles

rickedd46
03-17-2010, 01:34 PM
William,

Here are some links to the output transistors available today for the soundcraftsmen models with mosfet outputs.

http://www.profusionplc.com/pro/gex/prodGen.html?prdtyp=lateral%20mosfet

Hitachi - Exicon replacement

N Channel

2SK133 - TO3 metal ECF10N16
2SK134 - TO3 metal ECF10N16
2SK135 - TO3 metal ECF10N16
2SK175 - TO3 metal ECF10N20
2SK176 - TO3 metal ECF10N20
2SK1056 - plastic ECX10N16
2SK1057 - plastic ECX10N16
2SK1058 - plastic ECX10N16
2SK2220 - plastic ECX10N20
2SK2221 - plastic ECX10N20

P CH

2SJ48 - TO3 metal ECF10P16
2SJ49 - TO3 metal ECF10P16
2SJ50 - TO3 metal ECF10P16
2SJ55 - TO3 metal ECF10P20
2SJ56 - TO3 metal ECF10P20
2SJ160 - plastic ECX10P16
2SJ161 - plastic ECX10P16
2SJ162 - plastic ECX10P16
2SJ351 - plastic ECX10P20
2SJ352 - plastic ECX10P20

Magnatecs...

http://www.semelab.com/magnatec/mosdata.shtml

These seem to be new by magnatec. I haven't compared the electrical characteristics with the original hitachis yet.

http://www.semelab.com/magnatec/alfet.shtml

And here too...

http://export.farnell.com/jsp/search/productListing.jsp?ICID=i-407c-00001016&SKUS=1208689,1208653,1208651,1208687,1208691,11828 25,1208682,1208683,1208692,1182824,1680362,1525546 ,1525551,1525543,1525460,1525560

I read a while ago in the diyaudio site that the exicons (profusion) and the magnatecs are made by the same manufacturer.

Renesas (previously Hitachi) does not seem to make them in the TO-3 packages (metal) anymore and only makes the in TO247 (plastic). Maybe I'm wrong.

Link...

http://america.renesas.com/products/discrete/power_mos/power_mosfets_for_amplifier/power_mos_gen_amp/power_mos_gen_amp_root.jsp

Another link...

http://tech-diy.com/Store/LatFets.htm

Don't go for to ebay for the mosfets unless you want to get robbed.

I would replace all the capacitors (money permiting) on that amp. And maybe the bias trim potentiometer for something of a better quality.

See this link...

http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/bias_e.html

Once it is running it will impress you with is clarity, balance and control of the whole spectrum. You won't believe an amplifier that old can sound soooooooooo good.

I can provide a schematic. Shoot me a PM. :)

BTW, blowing fuses means shorted outputs. But just to make sure which channel is out just must disconnect power from these one at a time. Do not do this with the power on and make sure the ends of the wires you disconnect are taped to avoid them touching the chassis or you! There's 75 volts on the secondaries. If you don't think you can perform this diagnosis let someone with more experience do it. But if you're going to replace them with exicons or magnatecs you may as well replace all 8 mosfets.

hunterdog61
04-07-2010, 01:10 PM
hi,
i'm out here in the southwest and i have two soundcraftsmen ma5002 amps, beatiful amps ! i'm trying to find out if i can safely bridge these two amps together using the soundcraftsmen a-1b bridgeable adapter (used for the prc 800 amps i believe) is this possible?? or does anyone know where i could get a definitive answer because i don't want to damage the amps !! i'm kind of new to this forum so i sure would appreciate your help. Thank You
Hunterdog61

rickedd46
04-08-2010, 05:27 PM
hi,
i'm out here in the southwest and i have two soundcraftsmen ma5002 amps, beatiful amps ! i'm trying to find out if i can safely bridge these two amps together using the soundcraftsmen a-1b bridgeable adapter (used for the prc 800 amps i believe) is this possible?? or does anyone know where i could get a definitive answer because i don't want to damage the amps !! i'm kind of new to this forum so i sure would appreciate your help. Thank You
Hunterdog61

Hello,

Any amplifier which is bridged must be at least 4 ohms stable in stereo mode (your amps are). The reason for this is because once bridged the left (a) will see half the load and the right channel (b) will see the other half which means it'll put out the amount of wattage which it delivers to a pair of 4 ohms loads to a single 8 ohm instead.

Through the years Soundcraftsmen made several models based on the MA5002's class H circuitry, same amplifier with different faceplates, gain controls, etc. Some of them had a bridge option built in and were more expensive. We bridged one and left it as a demo for a subwoofer display with a diy dual 15" cabinet and the amp was stable and would not get hot.

So to answer your question. Yes, they can be bridged as long as the impedance of the load does not go below 8 ohms for each amplifier.

Remember the positive output of CH.A becomes (-) and the positive output of CH.B becomes (+). Which means that once you bridge them with the adapter the black (-) ground can not be used to avoid a short to the output stage and damage.

Also, if you're going to connect more than one pair of speakers I recommend you to wire them in series not in parallel that way you keep the impedance up into safe levels.

Good luck.

The mosfet models are 2 ohm stable in stereo mode. I have bridged 2 of the ones with fans into a 4 ohm load "at a party" without problems. They would not clip easily. The fans would turn on more often than normal but it is understandable. You can't hear them btw.

They sound so good you never wanna go back to stereo.

My main system has 2 A400PROs bridged through a PRO=CONTROL FOUR and it is my favorite setup.

hunterdog61
04-09-2010, 08:11 AM
Hello,

Any amplifier which is bridged must be at least 4 ohms stable in stereo mode (your amps are). The reason for this is because once bridged the left (a) will see half the load and the right channel (b) will see the other half which means it'll put out the amount of wattage which it delivers to a pair of 4 ohms loads to a single 8 ohm instead.

Through the years Soundcraftsmen made several models based on the MA5002's class H circuitry, same amplifier with different faceplates, gain controls, etc. Some of them had a bridge option built in and were more expensive. We bridged one and left it as a demo for a subwoofer display with a diy dual 15" cabinet and the amp was stable and would not get hot.

So to answer your question. Yes, they can be bridged as long as the impedance of the load does not go below 8 ohms for each amplifier.

Remember the positive output of CH.A becomes (-) and the positive output of CH.B becomes (+). Which means that once you bridge them with the adapter the black (-) ground can not be used to avoid a short to the output stage and damage.

Also, if you're going to connect more than one pair of speakers I recommend you to wire them in series not in parallel that way you keep the impedance up into safe levels.

Good luck.

The mosfet models are 2 ohm stable in stereo mode. I have bridged 2 of the ones with fans into a 4 ohm load "at a party" without problems. They would not clip easily. The fans would turn on more often than normal but it is understandable. You can't hear them btw.

They sound so good you never wanna go back to stereo.

My main system has 2 A400PROs bridged through a PRO=CONTROL FOUR and it is my favorite setup.

Thank You Very Very much for the info !!! been going nuts !! I guess I have to decide if it is worth the risk to bridge them as it sounds like there is a risk factor involved ("once you bridge them with the adapter the black (-) ground can not be used to avoid a short to the output stage and damage."). What happens if the bridge adapter goes out or fails ?? Will it blow both amps?? or is it possible to install some sort of fuse system I wonder.
Soundcraftsmen has been a favorite of mine since the 80's, I bought a DC2215 eq and was stunned at its performance when compared to others !!
Thanks Again !!
Hunterdog61

rickedd46
04-09-2010, 02:41 PM
Thank You Very Very much for the info !!! been going nuts !! I guess I have to decide if it is worth the risk to bridge them as it sounds like there is a risk factor involved ("once you bridge them with the adapter the black (-) ground can not be used to avoid a short to the output stage and damage."). What happens if the bridge adapter goes out or fails ?? Will it blow both amps?? or is it possible to install some sort of fuse system I wonder.
Soundcraftsmen has been a favorite of mine since the 80's, I bought a DC2215 eq and was stunned at its performance when compared to others !!
Thanks Again !!
Hunterdog61

Hunter,

What kind of speakers do you have?

What's their impedance?

What is their maximum wattage rating?

Can they be bi-amped? This is a safer route but not as much wattage.

Your amps are 375W/Ch stereo @4 ohms = 750W/bridged @8 ohms. I don't see a problem if the connections are wired as per the bridging device's instruction manual.

The bridging device will not go bad unless the power supply voltage exceeds its requirements and it has a built in PSU so I don't see that happening.

william134
05-18-2010, 06:34 AM
Hi Rickedd46,
Thanks for the reply back in March. I Have been away working the last 2 months and have not been able to catch up with everything thing yet.
The amp is working with about 0.5volt dc on the output. Looking at the output on the tektronix - it produces clean signwave. I have replaced the caps on the board so far, but I have still to replace the psu caps. I do need to adjust the dc offset. Can you please supply a copy of the schematic for the A2801.
Thanks William:)

rickedd46
05-19-2010, 02:16 PM
Hi Rickedd46,
Thanks for the reply back in March. I Have been away working the last 2 months and have not been able to catch up with everything thing yet.
The amp is working with about 0.5volt dc on the output. Looking at the output on the tektronix - it produces clean signwave. I have replaced the caps on the board so far, but I have still to replace the psu caps. I do need to adjust the dc offset. Can you please supply a copy of the schematic for the A2801.
Thanks William:)

Hello William,

Please PM me your email.

BTW,

Did you replace the input (25mfd np) caps?

william134
05-20-2010, 06:44 AM
Hi rickedd46,

My email is miles.essery@three.com.au

Yes, I used Elna 50V NP radial caps that I had.

Thanks William

rickedd46
05-25-2010, 10:15 AM
Hi rickedd46,

My email is miles.essery@three.com.au

Yes, I used Elna 50V NP radial caps that I had.

Thanks William

William,

Check your email.

Titanium Dome
06-07-2010, 07:36 AM
I recently acquired a NIB DX4200 that has 220/240V stickers all over the back and on the box. Inside the box are instructions for converting it to 110/120V by changing four wires, which seems simple enough, yet what's inside the case is not what's described on the paper. The paper refers to black, red, black/white, and red/white wires, none of which are present. The power cord is attached direct to the unswitched outlet on the back (I assume that might be the red and black wires), and a single white wire runs off that to the fuse holder.

I opened up a working DX4200 with 110/120V connections and it's identical to the "new" unit I just got, except for one wire, which may simply be be an on-the-fly change.

The other confusing thing is that the 220/240V unit has a standard three way plug, just like all my other Soundcraftsmen units. I would expect a different plug.

Of course the guy I bought it from has no idea about any of this, saying he never opened the box or used the unit.

Any thoughts? Do you know anything about 220/240 operation on these and how the transformer should be wired for 110/120?

BMWCCA
06-07-2010, 04:37 PM
FWIW: Nearly all of my later Soundcraftsmen units are labeled 220/240v and yet they all are running on 110v. One of my DX4200s has two 220v stickers on the back and one has none. Both have the standard U.S. electric cord and both are working fine. I'm guessing a lot of Soundcraftsmen sales near the end were to PXs and those in foreign service and the systems were later converted to 110v but the stickers never removed. I have the original sales info for three units that were shipped from California to Korea to an ambassador there. They came back to NA and then to me from Canada. All are labeled 240v.

I'd say if the plug fits, you're good to go. :dont-know:

Titanium Dome
06-07-2010, 10:59 PM
Good info, thanks. I'm thinking the worst that can happen is there's just not enough juice to get them going if they are really wired for 220. OTOH, plugging a 110V unit into a 220V circuit would have some resounding effects. :eek:

This was a nice pick up for a hundred bucks, as long as I don't fry it. :D


FWIW: Nearly all of my later Soundcraftsmen units are labeled 220/240v and yet they all are running on 110v. One of my DX4200s has two 220v stickers on the back and one has none. Both have the standard U.S. electric cord and both are working fine. I'm guessing a lot of Soundcraftsmen sales near the end were to PXs and those in foreign service and the systems were later converted to 110v but the stickers never removed. I have the original sales info for three units that were shipped from California to Korea to an ambassador there. They came back to NA and then to me from Canada. All are labeled 240v.

I'd say if the plug fits, you're good to go. :dont-know:

Titanium Dome
06-07-2010, 11:22 PM
Insteead of posting more pics here and cluttering this thread, I'll put them here:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?22432-Sweet-Soundcraftsmen-Score&p=289391&viewfull=1#post289391

rickedd46
06-19-2010, 10:34 AM
I recently acquired a NIB DX4200 that has 220/240V stickers all over the back and on the box. Inside the box are instructions for converting it to 110/120V by changing four wires, which seems simple enough, yet what's inside the case is not what's described on the paper. The paper refers to black, red, black/white, and red/white wires, none of which are present. The power cord is attached direct to the unswitched outlet on the back (I assume that might be the red and black wires), and a single white wire runs off that to the fuse holder.

I opened up a working DX4200 with 110/120V connections and it's identical to the "new" unit I just got, except for one wire, which may simply be be an on-the-fly change.

The other confusing thing is that the 220/240V unit has a standard three way plug, just like all my other Soundcraftsmen units. I would expect a different plug.

Of course the guy I bought it from has no idea about any of this, saying he never opened the box or used the unit.

Any thoughts? Do you know anything about 220/240 operation on these and how the transformer should be wired for 110/120?

Hello Titanium Dome,

I don't have a DX4200 to use as a reference but I will explain it in a simple way.

Transformers which are dual voltage have 2 pairs of primaries (4 wires).

So if the primaries are in wired series its input should be 220V and if the primaries are wired in parallel its input should be 120V. The secondaries stay as they are from the factory so they don't need to be touched.

This is a good example...

http://www.hammondmfg.com/5CHook.htm

Series Winding Connections (Primary)

http://www.hammondmfg.com/par_serA.gif

Parallel Winding Connections (Primary)

http://www.hammondmfg.com/par_serB.gif

2 and 4 (dotted) are the 110V inputs. 1 and 3 are 0V.

I hope this helps.

rickedd46
06-19-2010, 10:53 AM
A better example...

http://www.e-dan.co.uk/electronics/wiringtrans.html

http://www.e-dan.co.uk/electronics/wiring.gif

Good luck.

cadex18
06-23-2010, 07:09 AM
Hello everyone,

I'm new to the forum.

I used to be a salesman for their products from 1987 until MTX bought them and annihilated them by the mid 90's.

We were also the main "used" equipment store in New Jersey for several years so I have heard a lot of stuff.

I'm going to talk specifically about the lateral mosfets models in particular.

1st generation (early 80's to mid 90's).

(POWER OUTPUT CONSERVATIVELY STATED BTW).

PRO POWER 8 - (FULL CHASSIS, DUAL FANS, BRIDGING INCLUDED, 1/4" AND BALANCED INPUTS, 12 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, 375W/CH@8R, 600W/CH@4R, 900W/CH@2R, 1200W/MONO@8R, 1800W/MONO@4R).

PM1600 - (FULL CHASSIS, DUAL FANS, BRIDGING INCLUDED, 1/4" AND BALANCED INPUTS, 12 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, 375W/CH@8R, 600W/CH@4R, 900W/CH@2R, 1200W/MONO@8R, 1800W/MONO@4R).

PM840 - (SHOEBOX, 6 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, RCA INPUTS, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED, 205W/CH8R, 315W/CH4R, 275W/CH2R, 600W MONO, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

PCR800 - (SHOEBOX, 6 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, RCA INPUTS, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED, 205W/CH8R, 315W/CH4R, 275W/CH2R, 600W/MONO EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

PM860 - (SHOEBOX, 6 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, RCA INPUTS, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED, HIGH CURRENT, 205W/CH@8R, 315W/CH@4R, 450W/CH@2R, 600W/MONO@8R, 900W/MONO@4R EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

PRO POWER 4 - (FULL CHASSIS ,LED DISPLAY, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, OUTPUT FOR 4 SPEAKERS, FAN COOLED, 205W/CH @8R, 315W/CH @4R, 450W/CH @2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE, 600W/MONO@8R, 900W/MONO@4R).

PRO POWER 3 - (FULL CHASSIS, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, OUTPUT FOR 4 SPEAKERS, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED, 205W/CH@8R, 315W/CH@4R, 450W/CH@2R, 600W/MONO@8R, 900W/MONO@4R EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

PRO POWER 1 - (SHOEBOX, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, RCA INPUTS, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED, 205W/CH@8R, 315W/CH@4R, 450W/CH@2R, 600W/MONO@8R, 900W/MONO@4R EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

PRO POWER 10 - (FULL CHASSIS 4 CH, 2 PM860S IN ONE PACKAGE, 6 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, DUAL LED DISPLAY, DUAL PCR PS, DUAL FANS, A BEAST, 205W/CH@8R, 315W/CH@4R, 450W/CH@2R or 600WX2@8R and 900WX2@4R, HIGH CURRENT, INTEGRATED BRIDGING).

PRO REFERENCE TWO - (FULL CHASSIS, LED DISPLAY, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, OUTPUT FOR 4 SPKRS, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 125W/CH@8R, 190W/CH@4R, 270W@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

PA2X200 - (FULL CHASSIS, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, OUTPUT FOR 4 SPKRS, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 125W/CH@8R, 190W/CH@4R, 270W/CH@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

A2502 - (FULL CHASSIS, LED DISPLAY, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, OUTPUT FOR 4 SPKRS, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 125W/CH@8R, 190W/CH@4R, 270W/CH@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

RA5502 - (FULL CHASSIS, LED DISPLAY, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, OUTPUT FOR 4 SPKRS, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 125W/CH@8R, 190W/CH@4R, 270W/CH@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

RA5501 - (FULL CHASSIS, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 125W/CH@8R, 190W/CH@4R, 270W/CH@2R).

A2801 - (FULL CHASSIS, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 125W/CH@8R, 190W/CH@4R, 270W/CH@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

300X4 - (FULL CHASSIS 4 CH, 2 PM860S IN ONE PACKAGE, 6 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, DUAL PCR PS, DUAL FANS, A BEAST, 205W/CH@8R, 315W/CH@4R, 450W/CH@2R or 600WX2@8R and
900WX2@4R, HIGH CURRENT, INTEGRATED BRIDGING).

DJ900 - (FULL CHASSIS, FULL CHASSIS 4 CH, 2 PM860S IN ONE PACKAGE, 6 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, 1/4" AND BALANCED INPUTS, HIGH CURRENT, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED 205W/CH@8R, 315WCH@4R, 450W/CH@2R, 600W/MONO@8R, 900W/MONO@4R INTEGRATED BRIDGING).

DJ600 - (FULL CHASSIS, FULL CHASSIS 4 CH, 2 PM860S IN ONE PACKAGE, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, 1/4" AND BALANCED INPUTS, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 125W/CH@8R, 190W/CH@4R, 270W@2R, INTEGRATED BRIDGING).

NEWER GENERATION WHEN MERGED WITH MTX:

A900PRO - (FULL CHASSIS, DUAL FANS, INTERNAL BRIDGING, 1/4" AND BALANCED INPUTS, NEUTRIK, FULL CHASSIS 4 CH, 2 PM860S IN ONE PACKAGE, 12 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH 375W/CH@8R, 600W/CH@4R, 900W/CH@2R, 1200W/MONO@8R, 1800W/MONO@4R, INTEGRATED BRIDGING).

A400PRO - (FULL CHASSIS, 6 HITACHI TO247 PLASTIC MOSFETS PER CH, 1/4" AND BALANCED INPUTS, HIGH CURRENT, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED 205W/CH@8R, 315WCH@4R, 450W/CH@2R, 600W/MONO@8R, INTEGRATED BRIDGING).

A200PRO - (FULL CHASSIS, 6 HITACHI TO247 PLASTIC MOSFETS PER CH, 1/4" AND BALANCED INPUTS, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 125W/CH@8R, 190W/CH@4R, 270W/CH@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

A100PRO - (FULL CHASSIS, 2 HITACHI TO247 PLASTIC MOSFETS PER CH, 1/4" INPUTS, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 60W/CH@8R, 90W/CH@4R, 135W/CH@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

A400 - (FULL CHASSIS, 6 MOSFETS PER CH, RCA INPUTS, HIGH CURRENT, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED, 6 HITACHI TO247 PLASTIC MOSFETS PER CH 205W/CH@8R, 315WCH@4R, 450W/CH@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

A200 - (FULL CHASSIS, 4 MOSFETS PER CH, RCA INPUTS, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 6 HITACHI TO247 PLASTIC MOSFETS PER CH 125W/CH@8R, 190W/CH@4R, 270W@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

A100 - (FULL CHASSIS, 2 HITACHI TO247 PLASTIC MOSFETS PER CH, RCA INPUTS, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 60W/CH@8R, 90W/CH@4R, 135W/CH@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

S800 - (SHOEBOX, 4 EXICON TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, RCA INPUTS, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED, 205W/CH@8R, 315W/CH@4R, 450W/CH@2R, 600W/MONO@8R EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

S860 - (SHOEBOX, 6 EXICON TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, RCA INPUTS, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED, HIGH CURRENT, 205W/CH@8R, 315W/CH@4R, 450W/CH@2R, 600W/MONO@8R, 900W/MONO@4R EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

Any errors on the description please tell.

Now,

The story with these amplifiers is that during their production years according for those in the know in hi fi they weren't good for hi end and according to the DJs they weren't good for professional use, go figure.

I have tube amps, class D amps and I'm thinking of building one of Nelson Pass class A designs.

If one reads all over the web it seems that the general idea is that there's no perfect amplifier and neither are these.

But I have to say they sound extremely good.

After several A-B tests the newer MTX Soundcraftsmen seem to sound a little cleaner than the older models. It must be taken into account that the capacitors in the old amps are over 20 years old and that component technology has improved vastly. Also the use of the newer Profusion and Magnatec mosfets might make a difference in some of the newer models. This amplifiers are a huge bargain. I have bought several ones in horrible condition and since the sound comes from the "circuit" I just put them on a wood plank or buy a new chassis.

I have invited some naysayers to do a blind test with some of their amps but they refuse.

If anyone is interested in schematics email me and I'll gladly cooperate with you.

BTW,

I have over 30 Soundcraftsmen amps and I love them all.:bouncy:


rickedd46 greetings, some time ago that I have a power amplifier 8 soundcrafstmen and even use it, i read the post about soundcrafstmen amps and i saw the specifications and I wonder if I can get spare parts, also if you give me an idea of how to connect my speaker (I have two speaker 500w @ 8 ohm for use in bass) and my speaker for high working at 4 ohm, so I have more gain in the high than in the bass, that's mean, I have an imbalance, i use Peavy to 800 in the high and low use in the power amplifier 8 soundcrafstmen, the problem is that the switch for the bridge in power is broken and I have no way to see how to use it will appreciate it if you can get me the power soundcrafstmen 8 amp manual

rickedd46
06-24-2010, 09:49 PM
cadex18,

Please send me your email by private message.

Rick.

MJWPicMan
08-03-2010, 06:48 PM
First off, THANKS, RICKEDD46!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's next to impossible to find any info, particularly technical, about Soundcraftsmen components on line. And you have answered practically all my questions about my Pro Power 10. I got lucky and bought it from a guy who was selling it on Craigslist for $60. I didn't know anything about Soundcraftsmen, and neither I guess did he. The lick of the Irish. I had bought some Infinity 2.5s, and needed an amp to push them. My Parasound HCA 80 wasn't doing the job. But when I got the Pro Power 10 hooked up the lights in my apartment started dimming, and I ended up tripping the apartment's circuit breaker. That Pro Power 10 is a beast. And it's such a sweet sounding amp.
Now, as far as all that blather about Soundcraftsmen components "inferior/not quite audiophile" sound quality. I put my Pro Power 10 in direct competition, with the same components, up against Perreaux, McCormick ( is that spelled right?), Hafler, and a bunch of other amps my stereo nut friend Jay has. It sounded as good as any, better than most. It trashed the Hafler and the McCormick. Jay has a pair of MFA 200 mono blocks which Scott Frankland modified, and my Pro Power held it's own against the MFAs. And the MFAs are wonderful sounding amps. I'm sure there are better sounding amps. My friend Jay had a pair of big Denon mono blocks that were the size of small apartment refrigerators that he sold to a guy in Hong Kong for $20,000. I would have them in a flash. But I am SOOOO satisfied with my Pro Power 10. It makes my Vandersteen 2Ce Signatures sing. It's here to stay. And thanks again RickeDD46.
Martin.

rickedd46
08-06-2010, 04:43 PM
Thanks MJWPicMan,

I have owned several of these amplifiers for a long time and was always puzzled about their return of quality sound and power per dollar vs. other brands of the same era which were higher end and more expensive. I worked for years in the trading equipment business and I would test all types of purchased equipment before buying them and played them for long hours in the store through all kinds of different speakers, cables, sources, etc. Sometimes we wondered why would anyone trade (at a loss) some of these fancy stuff when just a couple years before it got an excellent review in all the top mags. We used to combine all kinds of equipment from NAD, Adcom, Hafler, Crown, Carver, Klipsch, Jamo, B&W, NHT, KEF, Tannoy, Apt Holman, Nikko, Denon, Onkyo, Yamaha, Sumo, Threshold, etc. Mostly traded in or sold to us by people that let the magazines and their high end dealers convince them the sound was coming out of the looks, weight, price, gold posts, bloated spec sheets, fancy names and reviews of someone with totally different ears than yours and looking to make money from the unaware. Or simply they just had too much money and couldn't justify having something cheap in their living room regardless of how good it sounds. Some of these brands we sold new. And even though some were excellent, some didn't perform as well as priced. Sadly.

Whenever we closed the store we would get together and experiment on all different of combinations for a few hours. The stuff from the very expensive brands was excellent but out of my reach used because I had a very hard time spending money on a different amp every six months or so just because it has good reviews. Note: Most expensive amplifiers can not be used for a party they're strictly for home use. The Soundcraftsmen can do both really well.

Note: It is a fact that amplifier technology was virtually unchanged for a lot of years until recently when class d designers found the way to eliminate the high frequency noise of that topology and has since been breaking into the hifi segment at a very fast pace. That said all class AB (the most used to date) amplifiers and class A have been created around the same basic design from years ago and are pretty much a variation of the original with the newest components available of its era. If you know how to read schematics you can see the point. You can design 2 amplifiers with basically the same schematic one cheap and one expensive based on the price of internal components. Also you add a nice chassis with a thick face and gold everything on the expensive unit and put the cheap unit on a plain box with cheap but decent connectors. And to make sure people don't call you out on it you change something on the schematic to make it look different but with the same result at the output. On a "blind" test no one will be able to tell the difference between the 2 even though the gold in the more expensive unit is blinding everyone in the room even with the eyes closed.

While a lot of amplifiers sound "musical" I must say the Soundcraftsmen sound like they're not there at all. IMO. The Pro Control 3 and 4 pre-amplifiers are very neutral sounding too. Remember this my opinion you might like a different sound or might confuse loud with good sounding. Btw these amplifiers do go loud on demand. So borrow one if you can and listen before you take the plunge. The physical look of the circuitry in these amplifiers (before MTX) is nothing to drool about so to most people will find they look ugly nude. I love them either way.

A few years ago some people with with a lot of business ideas realized that circuit and components looks sell more than the sound coming out of them. Take a look at ebay. Some of the flashy stuff there might not even work when you get it. And a lot of them are made with fake parts to begin with so you have to do your homework and not buy based on looks. Some of the ebay sellers which have come up with decent stuff have found themselves forced to drop the basic components in favor of the more flashy capacitors, resistors, etc. Otherwise people overlook them. It's like that not so attractive girl at the party that no one wants with to dance but ends up being a better and way cheaper date. Lol. With this I don't say the good looking stuff isn't good sounding but the good looks don't guarantee a better sound as a rule of law. It has been proven for a lot of years that certain people judge the sound of an amplifier before they even hear it. Must be the chassis or the tubes sticking out. The Soundcraftsmen might not have the most expensive boutique components of all amps, actually they got none at all (except the mosfet$$$$), but can be updated like any amp because the parts can be easily sourced. The most important thing is that the circuit engineer must have done something right. I can listen to my amps all day and night with ALL kinds of music without fatigue. They just sound good period and when the volume is turned up they respond with authority and no audible distortion. I have crossed the wires on one channel at high volume on one of the PCR series just to see if what the company stated was true and yes they do not burn on a speaker short.

Now don't try that unless you got over 30 Soundcraftsmen like I do.

Soundcraftsmen did take a few short cuts on the chassis, connectors and "some" of the components throughout. It was justified to keep the costs down and survive on a competitive market. Where they didn't cut was on the circuit design, mosfets and power supply. They weren't promoting themselves as "hi end". They were promoting themselves as "powerful, reliable and good sounding for a decent price" and that they delivered way more than promised.

Some of my amps are over 20 years old and they sound fantastic. I'm gonna start updating caps and resistor whenever I find time. I will post the work as I go.

Cheers.

MJWPicMan
08-11-2010, 01:01 AM
Ditto to what Rickeedd46 said in the previous post about Soundcraftsmen not burning on a speaker short. One of the other pluses about Soundcraftsmen that's not mentioned is that they were built like a tank. They take a ton of abuse and come back for more. Someone brought over some Walsh Ohms for me to audition. They weren't wired right, although the owner swore they were. Anyway they were shorting, and all my Pro power 10 did was was clip and go into protection mode. Didn't hurt it at all. I also had bought a Soundcraftsmen RA5502 amp and when I got it home and hooked it up it started blowing fuses. One of the heat sinks would get hot and it would blow the protection fuse. I figured since it was one heat sink getting hot there must be a short in that side and sure enough one of the negative banana plugs on my 2Ce Signatures had worked itself partly out of the input, and was touching the positive plug. And all the Soundcraftsmen did was get warm and blow the fuse. Never hurt it or my beloved Vandersteens.
That really says something about the commitment and care the people who made Soundcraftsmen, particularly Paul Rolfes, their chief engineer, put into their components. They didn't have to design them that well, but they did. And I also concur with what Rickedd46 says about fatigue free listening. I've listened to my Pro Power 10 for hours, and it never hurts my ears. I always end thinking I can't believe I bought an amp that sounds this good for $60. I must be living right. So if you're looking for an amp, or preamp, and you want to maximize your stereo dollar, and don't care about looks, because pretty they're not, most of them anyway, buy a Soundcraftsmen if you can find one. It'll probably be way under priced and it will sound terrific. Believe me, when your friends hear it they will be jealous.

Happy trails, Martin.

Tronman
08-23-2010, 06:47 PM
I'm new to the forum but have just purchased a Soundcraftsmen S860 AMP on Ebay and was wondering if any one may have a schematic for it or know where I can find one. I guess the gentlemen hadn't fully "tested" it before it put it up for bids so when he hooked it up for the check he blew the right channel speaker. He said he was going to have someone look at it but I wanted to give it a good once over before I hooked it up to anything valuable. If anyone has any info on what may have caused this it would be great. I'm an Engineering Technician and have worked in electronics for 20 years and was just wondering if any one has seen this before and maybe the probable cause.

Thanks guys,

Tim

JBLAddict
10-20-2010, 05:46 PM
for those having used a tandem SC amp and preamp, any opinions on SQ improvement using an analog pre of the DX4000 caliber instead of the analog passthrough of my HK AVR?

james zep
10-28-2010, 04:59 PM
Hello everyone,

I'm new to the forum.

NEWER GENERATION WHEN MERGED WITH MTX:


A400PRO - (FULL CHASSIS, 6 HITACHI TO247 PLASTIC MOSFETS PER CH, 1/4" AND BALANCED INPUTS, HIGH CURRENT, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED 205W/CH@8R, 315WCH@4R, 450W/CH@2R, 600W/MONO@8R, INTEGRATED BRIDGING).

A200PRO - (FULL CHASSIS, 6 HITACHI TO247 PLASTIC MOSFETS PER CH, 1/4" AND BALANCED INPUTS, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 125W/CH@8R, 190W/CH@4R, 270W/CH@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

A100PRO - (FULL CHASSIS, 2 HITACHI TO247 PLASTIC MOSFETS PER CH, 1/4" INPUTS, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 60W/CH@8R, 90W/CH@4R, 135W/CH@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

A400 - (FULL CHASSIS, 6 MOSFETS PER CH, RCA INPUTS, HIGH CURRENT, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED, 6 HITACHI TO247 PLASTIC MOSFETS PER CH 205W/CH@8R, 315WCH@4R, 450W/CH@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).



Hello everyone, I'm new too.

This topic interest me, especially since I bought this afternoon an MTX Soundcraftsmen A400 Pro.
I tried it with a par of Kappa 8. I know these speakers are hard to drive, but not as the Kappa 9. Anyway I tried really slowly with the A400 Pro and it shut down… or at least it seems to want to. I was waiting for any signal of that kind to immediately turn the volume and the amplifier down. So nothing was damage, then I used the Kappa with my Grand Integra M508 and they worked perfectly.
But could you tell if my A400 Pro, might have a problem or this is due to the Kappa impedance dipping below 4 ohm. Another strange thing, I couldn’t see the clipping LED flashed or turn on. Did the Kappa didn’t let them time enough to do so?
Could an A400 pro drive those Kappa 8. Now my plan is actually to use it with a par of AR 303a, will it be ok? (They have an average impedance of 4 Ohm and supposedly they doesn’t dip down more than 3.6 Ohm at a certain frequency).


Thanks.

james zep
10-28-2010, 05:00 PM
Hello everyone, I'm new too.

This topic interest me, especially since I bought this afternoon an MTX Soundcraftsmen A400 Pro.
I tried it with a par of Kappa 8. I know these speakers are hard to drive, but not as the Kappa 9. Anyway I tried really slowly with the A400 Pro and it shut down… or at least it seems to want to. I was waiting for any signal of that kind to immediately turn the volume and the amplifier down. So nothing was damage, then I used the Kappa with my Grand Integra M508 and they worked perfectly.
But could you tell if my A400 Pro, might have a problem or this is due to the Kappa impedance dipping below 4 ohm. Another strange thing, I couldn’t see the clipping LED flashed or turn on. Did the Kappa didn’t let them time enough to do so?
Could an A400 pro drive those Kappa 8. Now my plan is actually to use it with a par of AR 303a, will it be ok? (They have an average impedance of 4 Ohm and supposedly they doesn’t dip down more than 3.6 Ohm at a certain frequency).


Thanks.

JBLAddict
11-08-2010, 04:08 PM
if you're still around James, sounds like something is wrong with your amp, it should have no problem driving those speakers

JBLAddict
11-08-2010, 04:21 PM
Gang--some of the recent K2 frivolities w/ amps related to damping factor prompted me to lookup the specs on the PS400 that BMW uses on his L7s, noticed the damping factor on the datasheet at >400

does anyone have any damping factor info for "any" of the shoebox style Soundcraftsmen, it's not listed in those online reports (http://www.soundcraftsmen.com/test_reports.htm), or in the manuals that came with my S800. Before I make move to a Crown or other for grins for a couple hundred bucks, would like to know where I am now on damping? :dont-know:

many thanks

BMWCCA
11-08-2010, 06:21 PM
Gang--some of the recent K2 frivolities w/ amps related to damping factor prompted me to lookup the specs on the PS400 that BMW uses on his L7s, noticed the damping factor on the datasheet at >400

does anyone have any damping factor info for "any" of the shoebox style Soundcraftsmen, it's not listed in those online reports (http://www.soundcraftsmen.com/test_reports.htm), or in the manuals that came with my S800. Before I make move to a Crown or other for grins for a couple hundred bucks, would like to know where I am now on damping? :dont-know:

many thanks

A graph that came with the DC300A-II (the amp I'm now using with the 4345s) owner's manual shows a damping factor in excess of 1,000 in the range in which the 2245 operates. I suspect it is similar in the PS-400 though I've seen graphs for that model in the repair manual that lists the range you've quoted (greater than 400). An interesting quote from the DC300A-II manual is:


Your amplifier can provide an excellent damping factor of 750 or more from DC to 400 Hz in Dual mode with an 8 ohm load. In contrast, typical damping factors are 50 or lower. Higher damping factors yield lower distortion and greater motion control over the loudspeakers. A common damping factor for commercial applications is between 50 and 100. Higher damping factors may be desirable for live sound, but long cable lengths often limit the highest damping factor that can be achieved practically. (Under these circumstances, Crown’s® IQ System ® is often used with Crown’s premium Macro-Tech, Com-Tech ® and Reference series amplifiers for easy monitoring and control of units located very near the loudspeakers.) In recording studios and home hi-fi, a damping factor of 500 or more is desirable.Soundcraftsmen literature in my collection claims a damping factor of "greater than 200" for the Pro-Power Four, Three, One, and essentially the PCR800. A review of the PCR800 in the June 1984 issue of Modern Recording and Music by Len Feldman says damping factor measured was "very high, with a reading of around 200, referred to 8 ohms, using a 50 Hz test signal."

A later Feldman review of the Pro-Power Four quoted in Soundcraftsmen's literature said, "Damping factor at 8 ohms, referred to a 50-Hz test signal, was 205, allowing for the minimal resistance of my heavy-gauge speaker cables."

The Crown Studio Reference I & II list their damping factor at >20,000 from 10 Hz to 400 Hz. The Crown K2 is listed as >3000 from 10 to 400 Hz.

I know more must be better but how much do you really need? A typical Krell amp is under 120, or often half that. Some Perreaux amps claim >2,000. Pro Yamahas often referred to here usually claim >250. The largest McIntosh mono-blocks claim only 100.

JBLAddict
11-09-2010, 06:44 AM
Thanks for getting all those details. DF is a spec I really don't understand very much, just know what it generally does, but no idea beyond what point are diminishing returns?

Knowing that you prefer the Crown over the SC, and seeing it quoted so high for the Crown had me wondering if it's worth spending some money to find out. Though I have to admit, the small shoebox with so much power and what I think is already great sound really satisfies the FAF (family appreciation factor) required in my home...that little box just sits inconspicuously on the floor delivering tons of juice to the L7 and what to my ears is very well controlled but authoritative bass from those LE120H-1s...however, if there's a cheap way to derive some improvement, I'm game

Since you're one of the few who've tried SC against other amps on that very L7, and found preference for the alternative, I remain curious

BMWCCA
11-09-2010, 09:01 AM
In the beginning of this thread (maybe?) I mentioned I've owned SC gear for something like 35 years (currently a dozen-or-more pieces). I am, however, a short-time user of their amps, having owned mostly Crown amps during that time with the occasional Fisher SA-1000, Mac 250, and others. I've used SC pre and EQs forever, replacing my Mac C20 for daily use over thirty-years ago (still have the Mac). My only SC amp is the Pro-Power Four which is really a gussied-up, LED bejeweled version of the shoe-box. I played it only with the L7 in a single-amp hook-up, not bi-amped (either passive or active). Years later I can't actually remember why I preferred the Crowns and it may be (like JBLs) that's what I've become accustomed to over the past few decades.

I believe I said I liked the SC on the bottom end but not as much as the Crown on the top or mids so it might in-fact make an excellent LF amp for a bi-amp system but I have no complaints about the DC300A-II in that role currently. I'd love to have the time and space to make fair comparisons between my amps and speakers but that's for the future. My next system change will be to substitute the PS-400 and PS-200 for the DC300A-II and D150A-II mostly to gain the turn-on-delay protection the newer amps afford.

If you have the time and the few dollars it takes, I'd certainly go for trying a PS-400 or DC300A-II just for grins and tell us what you find. If you buy it right you'll always be able to re-sell it if you don't feel like hanging on to it.

I've willingly paid up to $200 for a PS-400 and PS-200 in excellent condition, just because...
I now own three 150s, one 300, two 400s, and three 200s, as well as a D75A I just picked up for cheap missing one knob (Thanks to Crown Parts for their help with that one!). I keep thinking when my (3) girls get places of their own where they can use it, I'll build them each a nice Crown, SC, JBL system of their own.

And I'm looking forward to a tri-amped 030-plus-175DLH JBL system using two Crown VFX2-As and the DC300A-II, D150A-II, and D75A. If I get that done for my 60th birthday, the speakers will then be only 55-years-old with one of them having never lived anywhere but in my home.

grumpy
11-09-2010, 12:58 PM
DF is a spec I really don't understand very much, just know what it generally does, but no idea beyond what point are diminishing returns?

It's just the nominal speaker resistance (say, 8 ohms) divided by the amplifier's
output impedance (say, 0.5 ohms) ... giving one an example damping factor of 16.

As with many such things, as a -stand alone- spec, it's rarely useful unless the
value is very low... such that amplifier-speaker matching will then be something
to pay more attention to than 'usual.'

Putting together a high damping factor, low output-stage negative feedback,
and high output current capability gets one a little closer to being able to say
how an amplifier -might- work with a particular speaker, but still isn't definitive,
as there are systems that break much of any fixed 'rule' set while still excelling
in certain areas.

OK, turn on your opinion filters:

Damping factor, distortion, watts, etc... have all been over-simplified and
over-emphasized in terms of "allowing" consumers simple differentiation of
products.

When the numbers are insanely good or bad, pay more attention to potential
-system- limitations or unnecessary costs (over-design)... which are both still OK
as long as you are OK with them (presumably enjoying some offsetting benefit or
aesthetic value).

Heck, I enjoy a hefty old GE portable radio in the garage or at the beach now and then :D

JBLAddict
11-12-2010, 10:04 AM
I see, points all taken. Guess then I'd need to simply ask others what amps they've found effective in controlling boxes with substantial bass output

....back to the Soundcraftsmen topic, I still can't believe how good a sound I'm able to get from an $80+shipping investment in my shoebox S800 coupled with the L7....

OT...I know few here are big on MCH music but I've gone a bit wild this past week on ebay with Chicago 2, Diana Krall, Beatles Love, Michael Brecker Pilgrimage, Natalie Merchant Tigerlily, with my L1, L5, L7 HT setup been having a really good time.....if I was to pick one disc as a recommendation it would be Beatles Love, what the George/Giles Martin did with original recordings into surround for the Circ de Soleil show is beyond stunning, and has a non-Beatles fan like myself spending lots of time with that disc...if you are a Beatles fan and have MCH this is an absolute must have....

jcrobso
11-12-2010, 02:39 PM
Output impedance could be .05 Ohms in some cases, this would give high damping factor.

rickedd46
11-22-2010, 03:15 PM
Hello everyone, I'm new too.

This topic interest me, especially since I bought this afternoon an MTX Soundcraftsmen A400 Pro.
I tried it with a par of Kappa 8. I know these speakers are hard to drive, but not as the Kappa 9. Anyway I tried really slowly with the A400 Pro and it shut down… or at least it seems to want to. I was waiting for any signal of that kind to immediately turn the volume and the amplifier down. So nothing was damage, then I used the Kappa with my Grand Integra M508 and they worked perfectly.
But could you tell if my A400 Pro, might have a problem or this is due to the Kappa impedance dipping below 4 ohm. Another strange thing, I couldn’t see the clipping LED flashed or turn on. Did the Kappa didn’t let them time enough to do so?
Could an A400 pro drive those Kappa 8. Now my plan is actually to use it with a par of AR 303a, will it be ok? (They have an average impedance of 4 Ohm and supposedly they doesn’t dip down more than 3.6 Ohm at a certain frequency).


Thanks.

Hello,

Like JBLAddict said the SC should not have an issue moving those speakers. My previous experience with one of my A400PROs was similar and I traced the problem to the input board. There was an update done to these boards which shows on the schematic. Make sure you check your wires and speaker crossovers to make sure no short is present. Also try the amp with different speakers to see if it still tries to shut off. The symptoms your amp is experiencing don't sound like blown outputs.These models with the PCR supply turn the fan on at high speed when the output mosfets or the power supply thyristors are shorted. make sure the two 11,000 mfd capacitors under the board are not loose. Look for cold solder joints or loose connectors/wires throughout. PM me if you need help or a schematic for that baby.

bmackin
01-20-2011, 09:11 PM
I have 2 Soundcraftsmen PM860s that I've had for over 20 years, and it looks like 1 of them may have died. I'm hoping it can be repaired! A few months ago the Truclip A red light came on, and while the amp still works I am getting sporadic static on the left channel now, (somewhat similar to when you turn them off while still playing music). I was hoping it might just need a new capacitor, but what do I know!

I've taken it in to an electronics repair shop near my house and they seem to think it is something more serious, but need some schematics to be sure.

IF ANYONE HAS SCHEMATICS FOR THE PM860, or knows where I can find them, I would be very grateful! I love these amps and would love to keep them as a pair. Any advice on what to check that I can pass on to the electronics repair shop would be a great second option.

*fingers crossed*

blazer40
01-26-2011, 05:38 AM
PM me with your email address, I'll shoot ya a copy. rickedd46 - I PM'd you about schematics you may have for the newer mtx Soundcraftsmen stuff as I don't have any of those.


I have 2 Soundcraftsmen PM860s that I've had for over 20 years, and it looks like 1 of them may have died. I'm hoping it can be repaired! A few months ago the Truclip A red light came on, and while the amp still works I am getting sporadic static on the left channel now, (somewhat similar to when you turn them off while still playing music). I was hoping it might just need a new capacitor, but what do I know!

I've taken it in to an electronics repair shop near my house and they seem to think it is something more serious, but need some schematics to be sure.

IF ANYONE HAS SCHEMATICS FOR THE PM860, or knows where I can find them, I would be very grateful! I love these amps and would love to keep them as a pair. Any advice on what to check that I can pass on to the electronics repair shop would be a great second option.

*fingers crossed*

blazer40
01-26-2011, 05:54 AM
I guess I should introduce myself! I'm a Soundcraftsmen nut just as much as a bunch of you are! I have 3 900x2's, a Pro-Power 10, Pro-Power 4, PM860, PM840, PCR800 amps as well as a Pro-Control 4 preamp and the one equalizer with the analyzer in the middle (can't remember the model). I just got done fixing my latest 900x2 purchase, needed caps all over the place. It lived life in a church until one of the main filter caps shorted which blew two scr's and burned a trace on the power supply board. After previously paying through the nose for capacitors on another 900x2 of mine, I narrowed down these part numbers from digikey that work fine and have minimal cost:

900x2 PR1800 PM1600 Pro-Power 8 should all take these:

Digikey 565-3299-ND - 100V 10,000uf correct diameter, but a tad short on height (4 of these are needed), about $12 a piece (cheap compared to paying $50 a piece!)

Digikey 495-4227-ND - 100V 10,000uf two of these are needed, a tad higher but the scr heatsink does clear the chassis cover when installed, I just used these on the repair i finished last night.

75 volt caps - should fit the bulk of the soundcraftsmen amps, they are a tad shorted than stock so you will have to shim them on the bottom on some models so the power supply board doesn't hit the transformer. Digikey 565-3331-ND They are 75V 18,000uf. Since they are bigger than the stock 11,000 uf they should give a little extra reserve on the power supply. I have 4 of these on backorder from digikey, $13 a piece, to try them on my Pro-Power 10. I bought this amp new and haven't ever changed any caps so it's probably way past due.

Again, just an intro of myself and a few tidbits of knowledge I have about these amps.

-Matt

blazer40
01-26-2011, 06:02 AM
Soundcraftsmen schematics: I have schematics for a bunch of Soundcraftsmen schematics (not the mtx soundcraftsmen stuff though, but I doubt things are much different). so if anyone needs something, pm me with your email addy.

-Matt

Titanium Dome
01-26-2011, 08:07 AM
Hey Matt, welcome to the forum, and thanks for your offer.

A lot of my Soundcraftsmen gear could use a "tune up" by now. I just need to build up the momentum to "git 'er done!"

I still have A100s, A200s, and A400s in use every day. They're all from the MTX era.

blazer40
01-26-2011, 09:08 AM
Holy cow! How many do you have? I rarely see any of the Axxx series on ebay nor craigslist, where do you find them hiding?

-Matt


Hey Matt, welcome to the forum, and thanks for your offer.

A lot of my Soundcraftsmen gear could use a "tune up" by now. I just need to build up the momentum to "git 'er done!"

I still have A100s, A200s, and A400s in use every day. They're all from the MTX era.

Titanium Dome
01-26-2011, 11:32 AM
Holy cow! How many do you have? I rarely see any of the Axxx series on ebay nor craigslist, where do you find them hiding?

-Matt

Of the A Series amps I have 2 A100s, 2 A200s and 3 A400s.

I've also got 5 PCR800s, 1 S800, 1 S860, 1 Pro-Control Three, and 1 A2502.

Don't even ask about the the pres, EQs, and analyzers.

bmackin
01-27-2011, 01:17 PM
Hey Matt,

Thanks for the schematics! You're a legend! I've sent them off to the repair shop. Hopefully I'll be listening to my PM860 again in no time.

Thanks again!

- Bill

blazer40
01-28-2011, 04:02 AM
Bill,


Here's a power supply schematic that will most likely match your amp. The one I sent before was for a PP10 which has some extra stuff. Disregard the writing on it as I don't know who did that, I got this version with an amp I got off ebay.

-Matt

bmackin
01-30-2011, 01:22 PM
Matt -

Thanks again! I'll pass this on to the repair shop. I'm hoping to hear from them in a few days. I'll let you know how things turn out.

Cheers,
Bill

cyclecamper
06-01-2011, 01:36 AM
rickedd46
blazer40
Titanium Dome

So great to meet all of you!
blazer40, you have 3 900X2 amps?

I have 4 of the same PR1800 and 1 900X2.
2 I bought new in the late '70's
2 I got used on eBay. They were on the other coast...
the 900X2 I just bought on craigslist and I'm awaiting delivery.

I love these things. My only complaint is I wish they had a bit more capacitance in those big caps after the power supply, so they had more headroom to at least attempt to reproduce short transient bursts beyond their continuous rating. But there's enough power to go around despite that limitation. I used to have 2 Crown CE4000 switching amps and they also had a lot of power (considerably more than a 900X2)...and also had no dynamic headroom for even attempting to handle short transient bursts beyond their continuous rating.

Think I could fit more modern caps with higher capacitance in the same place as the original stock caps, for an upgrade? Or would I have to add an additional cabinet to each amp, to hold a bank of caps?

Or am I just freakin' nuts for wanting to?

blazer40
06-01-2011, 08:50 AM
Yes you can upgrade the caps, but some of the high capacitance versions are pricey. I re-capped all of my 900x2 amps over winter and ended up with 10,000's on the big 4 (same as originals) and 10,000's on the two smaller ones (in place of 6800's i think) under the power supply boards.

I ended up at about $12 per cap for the bigger ones, so about $150 total on those. (that was the killer for me, having to get 12 of them for 3 amps!) This is why I stayed away from upgrades. which would have just run the price thru the roof.

I did manage to get some caps rated at 18,000 for my Pro-Power 10s, nice upgrade from the stock 10,000 size.. (would also fit a bunch of the other Soundcraftsmen amps too).



rickedd46
blazer40
Titanium Dome

So great to meet all of you!
blazer40, you have 3 900X2 amps?

I have 4 of the same PR1800 and 1 900X2.
2 I bought new in the late '70's
2 I got used on eBay. They were on the other coast...
the 900X2 I just bought on craigslist and I'm awaiting delivery.

I love these things. My only complaint is I wish they had a bit more capacitance in those big caps after the power supply, so they had more headroom to at least attempt to reproduce short transient bursts beyond their continuous rating. But there's enough power to go around despite that limitation. I used to have 2 Crown CE4000 switching amps and they also had a lot of power (considerably more than a 900X2)...and also had no dynamic headroom for even attempting to handle short transient bursts beyond their continuous rating.

Think I could fit more modern caps with higher capacitance in the same place as the original stock caps, for an upgrade? Or would I have to add an additional cabinet to each amp, to hold a bank of caps?

Or am I just freakin' nuts for wanting to?

JBLAddict
06-05-2011, 03:56 PM
thought about asking this in another thread but didn't find one appropriate (didn't want to get scolded to for posting in the analog 2.1 preamp thread :D), and want to stay on Soundcraftsment so here goes.

I'm currently running an Opp83SE-->analog bypass HK AVR-->SC S800 amp for my two channel listening. Thought for sometime about what to expect if I ran the SEs analog out to a vintage pre-amp instead? (want to use the Oppo's DAC that paid good money for). Would the analog section of such a pre-amp like a SC DX series/Control3 make that much of a difference compared to the HK bypass??

I'm pretty ignorant about analog pre-amp power boards, what makes them good/bad, and have repeatedly read about how inferior they are on modern mid-grade AVRs, so I'm a bit lost there. On the flipside for budget purposes I'd only do this with something vintage and low risk, so would a late 80s, early 90's SC be a meaningful "upgrade"?

echarlie
06-19-2011, 08:19 AM
I have a SP 4002 and a MA 5002 that I absolutely LOVE for my 2 channel setup. However, I want to build a home theater now and would LOVE to use Soundcraftsmen amps for this too but I was wondering if a person could run multiple amps (bridged / mono) to do this ? would it sound good ? I was thinking like maybe a PM or PCR "shoebox" per channel maybe at least a large amp for the fronts and center and a smaller amp for the rears ?

Not sure what's possible so any ideas or even better, examples if you guys are running something similar, would be awesome!!

cyclecamper
06-21-2011, 08:15 PM
The new 900X2 arrived today. I was surprised to see the front grille slots horizontal rather than vertical like the PR1800. Otherwise looks pretty much the same on the outside.

As I was unable to get any PR1800 or 900X2 schematics on any forums I bought some from this online source:
http://www.servicemanuals.net/ServiceManual/SOUNDCRAFTSMEN/900x2/pos1/results.aspx
They have schematics for most of the soundcraftsmen line.

I actually bought the PR1800 schematic and they came with "PR1800; 900X2; Pro-Power 8" on them, so I didn't bother to buy the 900X2 schematics.

So it sounds like a Pro-Power 8 and 900X2 and PR1800 are all the same thing? rickedd46 has me confused, he describes an A900 as also the same 12 output transistors/channel but then describes it as 4-channel or 2 PM860 in 1 chassis, which would be only 6 output transistors per channel??? Something doesn't add up, even the power spec impedances are like unbridged, unless the A900 is like two 900X2 in 1 chassis?

JBLAddict
06-28-2011, 10:02 PM
What I'm looking for is an A400, which has the power rating I seek, is a bit newer, and recommended by TiD for the L7s


Two years later, and one finally came up, a bid I wasn't going to lose this time :no_wag:

Really really clean unit, looks brand new, much unlike the two S800s I purchased originally. Just hooked it up & the difference I notice from the S800 would read like clichéd audio mag reviews, so I'll not go there, but there is an absolute improvement in LF that is particularly welcomed on an L7.

Don't know if its the model or from being in better shape than the S800s, but it's a step up for certain--thanks Dome for the original recommendation.....

Titanium Dome
06-29-2011, 07:44 AM
Two years later, and one finally came up, a bid I wasn't going to lose this time :no_wag:

Really really clean unit, looks brand new, much unlike the two S800s I purchased originally. Just hooked it up & the difference I notice from the S800 would read like clichéd audio mag reviews, so I'll not go there, but there is an absolute improvement in LF that is particularly welcomed on an L7.

Don't know if its the model or from being in better shape than the S800s, but it's a step up for certain--thanks Dome for the original recommendation.....

The A400, now there's a sweet baby! :)

rickedd46
07-08-2011, 10:14 AM
The new 900X2 arrived today. I was surprised to see the front grille slots horizontal rather than vertical like the PR1800. Otherwise looks pretty much the same on the outside.

As I was unable to get any PR1800 or 900X2 schematics on any forums I bought some from this online source:
http://www.servicemanuals.net/ServiceManual/SOUNDCRAFTSMEN/900x2/pos1/results.aspx
They have schematics for most of the soundcraftsmen line.

I actually bought the PR1800 schematic and they came with "PR1800; 900X2; Pro-Power 8" on them, so I didn't bother to buy the 900X2 schematics.

So it sounds like a Pro-Power 8 and 900X2 and PR1800 are all the same thing? rickedd46 has me confused, he describes an A900 as also the same 12 output transistors/channel but then describes it as 4-channel or 2 PM860 in 1 chassis, which would be only 6 output transistors per channel??? Something doesn't add up, even the power spec impedances are like unbridged, unless the A900 is like two 900X2 in 1 chassis?

Hello Cyclecamper,

Yes, that was an error on my part. The PM1600, Pro-Power 8, PR1800, 900X2, A900PRO are all the same amplifier except that the PM1600 does not have the protection circuitry board and only 1/4" inputs. There might be other differences as front plates but internally the same. Thanks for catching that.

JBLAddict
08-05-2011, 09:37 AM
unfortunately as of yesterday the right Peak indicator light on my "new" A400 is lit whenever I run the amp.

It lit up and low volume and has stayed on at low volume, even after shutting it down for the night and starting it back up the next day.

Does this mean there's something wrong with the actual output in terms of clipping or possibly that that light itself is defective? I can't hear any audible clipping/distortion?

grumpy
08-05-2011, 10:08 AM
If you've checked for DC, it's not gone into ultrasonic oscillation, and it sounds OK,
it's probably just the circuitry driving the lamp (or a stuck relay or an overprotective protection circuit?).
Other A400 user reports of similar behavior?

Seems like folks here had/have schematics that might help w/ a diagnosis.

Titanium Dome
08-05-2011, 10:19 AM
IME that's a precursor to channel failure. I'd retire it until it's checked out, unless you've got it hooked up to a speaker you don't mind sacrificing.

Every Soundcraftsman amp that's gone bad on me started with a persistent clipping indicator. Over time, one simply stopped playing with no ill effect. Two others signaled their demise loudly and with great anguish, killing tweeters with their death throes.

JBLAddict
08-05-2011, 10:20 AM
If you've checked for DC, it's not gone into ultrasonic oscillation, and it sounds OK,
it's probably just the circuitry driving the lamp (or a stuck relay or an overprotective protection circuit?).
Other A400 user reports of similar behavior?

Seems like folks here had/have schematics that might help w/ a diagnosis.

Sorry to sound ignorant, DC is short for clipping? thanks!

hjames
08-05-2011, 10:35 AM
Sorry to sound ignorant, DC is short for clipping? thanks!
DC means Direct current - from the power supply perhaps - maybe a capacitor is/has failed ...
instead of AC - Alternating current, which is what the music/audio is...

Titanium Dome
08-05-2011, 10:54 AM
If you come on the 13th, maybe we could check it for DC (Direct Current) if you bring it. Plus, I have one in my garage that could be used for comparison.

grumpy
08-05-2011, 01:02 PM
DC is what you get from a battery... steady (mostly) unvarying voltage.
If persistent on the output of an audio amp, more than a few milli-Volts,
it usually indicates an adjustment is needed or a failure has occurred.

In dramatic failure cases, the power supply voltage (tens+ of volts) can
show up on the output... sort of like clipping that stuck to the peak and stayed...
This usually releases magic smoke from the amp -and- speaker ;)

You can safely see what DC does by hooking up an AA battery to a large woofer...
it introduces a static position offset (voice coil is no longer centered in the gap
by the spider/surround suspension) and gives off heat (not audio).

JBLAddict
08-05-2011, 01:12 PM
thanks for the replies, wow that sucks, after waiting so long to find one especially in such nice outward condition....

I should have clarified that I did know how AC-DC works, but since I didn't know how to check direct current vs. alternating current in the amp, I thought maybe clipping was short for dynamic clipping or something like that. I do have an ohm-meter, but don't know where to probe?

JBLAddict
08-05-2011, 01:16 PM
If you come on the 13th, maybe we could check it for DC (Direct Current) if you bring it. Plus, I have one in my garage that could be used for comparison.

that'd be cool! chances are I'll be there for the 13th the way it looks right now

Titanium Dome
08-05-2011, 06:26 PM
, but don't know where to probe?

Oh no he didn't!

Oh yes he did!!!

JBLAddict
08-06-2011, 03:10 PM
OK, let's start over. ;)

Since the EE savvy among you knows a great deal about the internal workings of the amp, there's a subtle implication that there are things inside the amp that should be checked, which I'm not capable or willing to do myself-this is what I was attempting to get clarity on.

If on the other hand, it's as simple as probing the amp's output terminals, I can do that but do need to know if should check V or I, and can/should I do it with the speakers connected and running or short the terminals without them connected. And of course, what should I be looking for as normal/abnormal?

that said, while plugged in last night but on mute there was an occasional "pop" so its definitely going bad :( and was replaced by an S800 for now. I'd really like to get it fixed if anyone can recommend a repair shop in Orange County.

grumpy
08-06-2011, 06:23 PM
I was thinking dc voltmeter on unloaded output, but it sounds like the problem is beyond that now... bummer.

mikelemoine
09-07-2011, 05:55 AM
Hi all,
I'm a Soundcraftsmen enthusiast and came across this thread while searching for some information on my MA5002. This thread might hold a record for the longest running active thread on any topic!

I have two Pro-Power Fours, a Pro-Power One (shoebox), an MTX/SC A100 and of course my MA5002. My old SC DX3000 and DX4100 pre-amps both died (sold as-is on Ebay a few years back), and I've been looking for a replacement ever since. I also have a PCR800 with a blown channel that I may eventually try to fix (on the to do list for 5 years so far). I'm currently using a Parasound pre-amp which works ok, but just doesn't match my amps as well, IMHO. For speakers I have a pair of Paisley SPL3000 and SPL4000 monitors and a pair of JBL 2231As running as subs (they are ready for a recone-gulp!). I also have some big Cerwin Vega 15" 3-ways for when I just want to drown out the voices in my head :D

Anyway, my MA5002 was an ebay find that I put into storage for a few years before implementing it. When I first powered it up it was dead due to a blown 10A fuse. I replaced it with an 8A (all I had) and slowly powered it up with a bulb in series, in case it was shorted. It appeared to be fine so I put it into my man cave (garage) system which is usually played at low to moderate volume to avoid bothering the neighbors. I cranked it a few times without any problem but one day it popped the 8A fuse while only running about a watt per channel output. I replaced the 8A with the specified 10A and it was "fine" again until I cranked it one day at 2 ohms. It still works fine at normal levels and hasn't blown a fuse again with many hours of use, but obviously something is awry. I did a quick test and found 100mV DC at the speaker output of channel A, and only a few mV on channel B. I have some high school electronics training and am very good at soldering, but it has been many years since I've done any component level repair work.

Wondering if I should dare try to dig into this myself and if anyone knows of any technical write ups for the MA5002? I've fixed cars, washers, air conditioners and a well pump with forum help, but can't find too much on this old stuff!

Thanks in advance for any ideas, and I apologize in advance if my intro hijacked the thread in any way.

Mike

SimSurplus
01-04-2012, 03:57 PM
First, I'd like to thank everyone for the great info posted here. I came into possession of nine S800 Amps and landed on this site while trying to figure out just what I have. The postings really helped with that.

I have not had time to test them all yet, but based on the technician notes that came with them, 2 have issues and 1 has some physical damage to the faceplate (maybe I can use one of the bad ones to rebuild it). This leaves me with roughly 6 units to sell. If there is any interest in them, on this board, please let me know. I'd love to have them go to folks that appreciate them and know how to get the most out of them.

gferrell
01-06-2012, 02:21 PM
Some pictures would be nice. I may be interested. You say some have issues, what kind of issues? I may want them to see if I can repair.

Thanks

SimSurplus
01-18-2012, 06:02 PM
I apologize for falling off the Earth for a while.... had a huge garage sale and it sucked up a lot of time (especially family time, which must be repaid....), so I didn't get much of a chance to evaluate the amps for a while. I still need to clean up a little adhesive residue off of a few of them and get some photos, but here is what I found. There are a total of 10 (not 9) amps. One is in great shape.... I thought it might be unused, but it has a few marks on it, so it has been used... I would give it a score of 9 out of 10. Then there are 5 or 6 that are in good used shape, the usual case scratches etc, but very good (maybe 7 out of 10). Then a couple that have case dings, and 2 (or maybe 3, I am not sure) that have no faceplate any more, and more extensive case damage. If you know this unit, you know it has a floating trim ring (suspended on black nylon spacers) and then a faceplate (suspended on another set of black nylon spacers).

Here's the great news. I did a quick test on them and all 10 appeared to work without issue. It was not a very sophisticated test, but here is what I did:

Source: Iphone 4S with a 3.5mm to Left and Right RCA 'Y' cable
Speakers: A pair of old Bose 151s, with 12 gauge wire and banana plugs
Test: Using the Iphone, I fed each of the amps (one at a time) a couple of songs with driving beats (I won't embarrass myself with titles) at medium and then nearly full volume, and then took turns pulling the Left or Right connector off and testing at medium and then nearly full volume, so I could ensure both channels were working and of similar volume.

I am no expert, but I did not hear anything unusual, or any one channel that sounded different (and I listened to 20 separate channels one after another). The one thing that was a surprise to me is how long the giant caps take to bleed off. You can shut down any of the amps and it still plays for what seems like about 45 seconds afterwards.

I will have photos by the end of this weekend.... message me with an e-mail address and I'll send them as soon as I have them. The units are in Central Florida and it looks like shipping is about $30 each to get them from here to the Northeast if that gives you some idea. Anyone interested in all 10 ??

hjames
01-18-2012, 07:09 PM
So I'm guessing they are these shoebox amps??
Pictures of your actual amps would be helpful ...

SimSurplus
01-19-2012, 04:24 PM
These are 2 of the 10 amps.... one shows the shape of most of them, and one shows the shape of the 2 or 3 that are missing faceplates and have some cover scratches/dents. Better pictures will be coming soon.5451854517

SimSurplus
01-21-2012, 09:28 PM
I spent a bit of time at my little shop today to work on getting the S800 amps ready to sell. Here is the final tally. 7 Of them are in very good shape ($150 each), 1 case is banged up but nothing missing ($120), and 2 are missing faceplates ($85 each), but all appear to work fine. I cleaned them up and retested today. Took a bunch of photos too if you want to give me an e-mail address to send them to. Price does not include shipping which is approx $30 each (when I checked on shipping 1 from FL to PA). I'd take $1000 for all 10 (plus shipping) if someone was able to do that.... If I don't hear something in the next week, I'll resort to Ebay or the like. If I do, I'll post the link on this thread. - Thanks !

SimSurplus
01-23-2012, 06:07 PM
I have a lot more pictures, including photos of all of the serial numbers. There are some really nice units here....5457954580

BMWCCA
01-23-2012, 06:41 PM
I think you really need to put this in a Marketplace post. :dont-know:

I'm not being bitchy, you'd probably attract more attention to your sale that way since, well, you are just selling, aren't you?

JBLAddict
01-24-2012, 09:49 AM
I think you really need to put this in a Marketplace post. :dont-know:

I'm not being bitchy, you'd probably attract more attention to your sale that way since, well, you are just selling, aren't you?


well, technically, I did title the thread "Soundcraftsmen Purchase help" :D

Lee in Montreal
01-24-2012, 04:21 PM
well, technically, I did title the thread "Soundcraftsmen Purchase help" :D

Just in the wrong section then :D;):p:):bouncy:

Titanium Dome
01-24-2012, 11:20 PM
They look nice.. some of them really nice.

Must resist urge...

SimSurplus
01-25-2012, 05:37 AM
Got it. I'll stop posting these amps to Audio Heritage. I ended up on this particular thread as it was one of the only ones where people were specifically interested in Soundscrafstmen (there are lots of places to broadcast to the world, but I was trying to find enthusiasts). Didn't mean to violate policy. Out...

Lee in Montreal
01-25-2012, 06:05 AM
Got it. I'll stop posting these amps to Audio Heritage. I ended up on this particular thread as it was one of the only ones where people were specifically interested in Soundscrafstmen (there are lots of places to broadcast to the world, but I was trying to find enthusiasts). Didn't mean to violate policy. Out...

Here's the appropriate section.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?58-General-Audio-Marketplace

BMWCCA
01-25-2012, 06:15 PM
Didn't mean to violate policy. Out...

Nothing wrong with posting items for sale. For your benefit and ours they should just be in the Marketplace section where we'll look for them and you'll get more response.

I'd love to have two, but then I'd love to have money, too!

gferrell
02-02-2012, 06:56 PM
I bought the 2 with the missing face plates. These are like new old stock. THe scratches are fresh like they had put them in a rack new and covered them up in storage and scratched them pulling them out. Not even the slightest dust residue on the PCB's. Whoever pulled them out scratched them up. Great sounding (tested them on my 4412A's) and a lot of watts for the buck. Nice mosfet shoebox amps.

pcmacd
09-24-2012, 12:37 PM
That is a strange phenomenon, isn't it? Paint issues are pretty much due to the components not having big enough feet on them to clear even each other if stacked and not racked. And careless handling is always the issue more than poor paint. I have seen plenty being sold with missing knobs (pre-amps) and buttons. Must be a common rectangular button from that era since SAE used the same ones. EQ slider knobs seem to get lost, too. And the Pro-Control and Pre-Receiver knobs are quite unique and often missing. None of my ten-or-so components are so afflicted, luckily. Adult-owned by people who cared enough to keep the original boxes seems to help. And I keep a dusting brush on hand. Easy enough. http://www.bettymills.com/store/images/product/CFS36573_03.JPG While we're on the topic: For the later EQs, the plastic tips on the sliders are matched pretty well by the smallest bolt covers in the Lowe's hardware bins. You can even get them in red to set-off the main gain controls from the third-octave controls which is why I found them. Then one dead CX-series pre-EQ can supply practically an entire forum membership with spare parts . . . What is meant by Lowe's "bolt covers" here?

Titanium Dome
09-24-2012, 02:30 PM
What is meant by Lowe's "bolt covers" here?

http://www.lowes.com/Hardware/Fasteners/End-Caps-Screw-Protectors/_/N-1z0yqs1/pl?Ns=p_product_qty_sales_dollar|1

BMWCCA
09-24-2012, 06:29 PM
Yes sir!

56940

http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h441/GaleStorm118/sept/Soundcraftsman EQ/IMG_0341.jpg

pcmacd
09-24-2012, 07:18 PM
Hello everyone,

I'm new to the forum.

I used to be a salesman for their products from 1987 until MTX bought them and annihilated them by the mid 90's.

We were also the main "used" equipment store in New Jersey for several years so I have heard a lot of stuff.

I'm going to talk specifically about the lateral mosfets models in particular.

1st generation (early 80's to mid 90's).

(POWER OUTPUT CONSERVATIVELY STATED BTW).

PRO POWER 8 - (FULL CHASSIS, DUAL FANS, BRIDGING INCLUDED, 1/4" AND BALANCED INPUTS, 12 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, 375W/CH@8R, 600W/CH@4R, 900W/CH@2R, 1200W/MONO@8R, 1800W/MONO@4R).

PM1600 - (FULL CHASSIS, DUAL FANS, BRIDGING INCLUDED, 1/4" AND BALANCED INPUTS, 12 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, 375W/CH@8R, 600W/CH@4R, 900W/CH@2R, 1200W/MONO@8R, 1800W/MONO@4R).

PM840 - (SHOEBOX, 6 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, RCA INPUTS, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED, 205W/CH8R, 315W/CH4R, 275W/CH2R, 600W MONO, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

PCR800 - (SHOEBOX, 6 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, RCA INPUTS, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED, 205W/CH8R, 315W/CH4R, 275W/CH2R, 600W/MONO EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

PM860 - (SHOEBOX, 6 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, RCA INPUTS, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED, HIGH CURRENT, 205W/CH@8R, 315W/CH@4R, 450W/CH@2R, 600W/MONO@8R, 900W/MONO@4R EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

PRO POWER 4 - (FULL CHASSIS ,LED DISPLAY, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, OUTPUT FOR 4 SPEAKERS, FAN COOLED, 205W/CH @8R, 315W/CH @4R, 450W/CH @2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE, 600W/MONO@8R, 900W/MONO@4R).

PRO POWER 3 - (FULL CHASSIS, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, OUTPUT FOR 4 SPEAKERS, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED, 205W/CH@8R, 315W/CH@4R, 450W/CH@2R, 600W/MONO@8R, 900W/MONO@4R EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

PRO POWER 1 - (SHOEBOX, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, RCA INPUTS, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED, 205W/CH@8R, 315W/CH@4R, 450W/CH@2R, 600W/MONO@8R, 900W/MONO@4R EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

PRO POWER 10 - (FULL CHASSIS 4 CH, 2 PM860S IN ONE PACKAGE, 6 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, DUAL LED DISPLAY, DUAL PCR PS, DUAL FANS, A BEAST, 205W/CH@8R, 315W/CH@4R, 450W/CH@2R or 600WX2@8R and 900WX2@4R, HIGH CURRENT, INTEGRATED BRIDGING).

PRO REFERENCE TWO - (FULL CHASSIS, LED DISPLAY, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, OUTPUT FOR 4 SPKRS, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 125W/CH@8R, 190W/CH@4R, 270W@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

PA2X200 - (FULL CHASSIS, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, OUTPUT FOR 4 SPKRS, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 125W/CH@8R, 190W/CH@4R, 270W/CH@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

A2502 - (FULL CHASSIS, LED DISPLAY, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, OUTPUT FOR 4 SPKRS, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 125W/CH@8R, 190W/CH@4R, 270W/CH@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

RA5502 - (FULL CHASSIS, LED DISPLAY, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, OUTPUT FOR 4 SPKRS, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 125W/CH@8R, 190W/CH@4R, 270W/CH@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

RA5501 - (FULL CHASSIS, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 125W/CH@8R, 190W/CH@4R, 270W/CH@2R).

A2801 - (FULL CHASSIS, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 125W/CH@8R, 190W/CH@4R, 270W/CH@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

300X4 - (FULL CHASSIS 4 CH, 2 PM860S IN ONE PACKAGE, 6 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, DUAL PCR PS, DUAL FANS, A BEAST, 205W/CH@8R, 315W/CH@4R, 450W/CH@2R or 600WX2@8R and
900WX2@4R, HIGH CURRENT, INTEGRATED BRIDGING).

DJ900 - (FULL CHASSIS, FULL CHASSIS 4 CH, 2 PM860S IN ONE PACKAGE, 6 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, 1/4" AND BALANCED INPUTS, HIGH CURRENT, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED 205W/CH@8R, 315WCH@4R, 450W/CH@2R, 600W/MONO@8R, 900W/MONO@4R INTEGRATED BRIDGING).

DJ600 - (FULL CHASSIS, FULL CHASSIS 4 CH, 2 PM860S IN ONE PACKAGE, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, 1/4" AND BALANCED INPUTS, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 125W/CH@8R, 190W/CH@4R, 270W@2R, INTEGRATED BRIDGING).

NEWER GENERATION WHEN MERGED WITH MTX:

A900PRO - (FULL CHASSIS, DUAL FANS, INTERNAL BRIDGING, 1/4" AND BALANCED INPUTS, NEUTRIK, FULL CHASSIS 4 CH, 2 PM860S IN ONE PACKAGE, 12 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH 375W/CH@8R, 600W/CH@4R, 900W/CH@2R, 1200W/MONO@8R, 1800W/MONO@4R, INTEGRATED BRIDGING).

A400PRO - (FULL CHASSIS, 6 HITACHI TO247 PLASTIC MOSFETS PER CH, 1/4" AND BALANCED INPUTS, HIGH CURRENT, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED 205W/CH@8R, 315WCH@4R, 450W/CH@2R, 600W/MONO@8R, INTEGRATED BRIDGING).

A200PRO - (FULL CHASSIS, 6 HITACHI TO247 PLASTIC MOSFETS PER CH, 1/4" AND BALANCED INPUTS, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 125W/CH@8R, 190W/CH@4R, 270W/CH@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

A100PRO - (FULL CHASSIS, 2 HITACHI TO247 PLASTIC MOSFETS PER CH, 1/4" INPUTS, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 60W/CH@8R, 90W/CH@4R, 135W/CH@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

A400 - (FULL CHASSIS, 6 MOSFETS PER CH, RCA INPUTS, HIGH CURRENT, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED, 6 HITACHI TO247 PLASTIC MOSFETS PER CH 205W/CH@8R, 315WCH@4R, 450W/CH@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

A200 - (FULL CHASSIS, 4 MOSFETS PER CH, RCA INPUTS, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 6 HITACHI TO247 PLASTIC MOSFETS PER CH 125W/CH@8R, 190W/CH@4R, 270W@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

A100 - (FULL CHASSIS, 2 HITACHI TO247 PLASTIC MOSFETS PER CH, RCA INPUTS, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 60W/CH@8R, 90W/CH@4R, 135W/CH@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

S800 - (SHOEBOX, 4 EXICON TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, RCA INPUTS, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED, 205W/CH@8R, 315W/CH@4R, 450W/CH@2R, 600W/MONO@8R EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

S860 - (SHOEBOX, 6 EXICON TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, RCA INPUTS, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED, HIGH CURRENT, 205W/CH@8R, 315W/CH@4R, 450W/CH@2R, 600W/MONO@8R, 900W/MONO@4R EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

Any errors on the description please tell.

Now,

The story with these amplifiers is that during their production years according for those in the know in hi fi they weren't good for hi end and according to the DJs they weren't good for professional use, go figure.

I have tube amps, class D amps and I'm thinking of building one of Nelson Pass class A designs.

If one reads all over the web it seems that the general idea is that there's no perfect amplifier and neither are these.

But I have to say they sound extremely good.

After several A-B tests the newer MTX Soundcraftsmen seem to sound a little cleaner than the older models. It must be taken into account that the capacitors in the old amps are over 20 years old and that component technology has improved vastly. Also the use of the newer Profusion and Magnatec mosfets might make a difference in some of the newer models. This amplifiers are a huge bargain. I have bought several ones in horrible condition and since the sound comes from the "circuit" I just put them on a wood plank or buy a new chassis.

I have invited some naysayers to do a blind test with some of their amps but they refuse.

If anyone is interested in schematics email me and I'll gladly cooperate with you.

BTW,

I have over 30 Soundcraftsmen amps and I love them all.:bouncy:

PM 860 inputs are 1/4" phone plug. Well, at the very least, MINE ARE!

Awesome post!

rickedd46
11-16-2012, 02:39 PM
"PM 860 inputs are 1/4" phone plug. Well, at the very least, MINE ARE!

Awesome post!"

Yes, you are correct.

gferrell
11-29-2012, 03:55 PM
Anyone have the schematics on the MTX S800? I really would like to a copy before they become extinct since I have 4 functional S800's. I called MTX and the guy said it was proprietary, give me a break.

cyclecamper
11-29-2012, 06:41 PM
I'm always in the market for the big pcr-regulated FET amps. I have 9 of the bigger soundcraftsmen amps now, each like twice the more common 'shoebox'. I have 5 of the 900X2 with the soundcraftsmen name, and 8 with the earlier PM 1800 name, but the same inside as far as I can tell.

I mention it because I'd love to have one more.

tesla
11-29-2012, 08:20 PM
Just my 2 cents.

Back in the late 70's, early 80's, I bought a brand-new amp at the factory in Santa Ana, Ca, (I don't remember what model, but it had a graphic EQ and 200 WPC @ 8 ohms.

I was underwhelmed, to say the least, it sounded bad & distorted with my old Bose 901 II's, (insert groan here).

I traded it for a Paragon 12A Tube pre. The guy thought I was crazy, but I've never regretted my decision, and still own and use it every day. Did I get a lemon?

BMWCCA
11-30-2012, 07:06 PM
Just my 2 cents.

Back in the late 70's, early 80's, I bought a brand-new amp at the factory in Santa Ana, Ca, (I don't remember what model, but it had a graphic EQ and 200 WPC @ 8 ohms.

AFAIK, Soundcraftsmen never made an "amp" with a graphic EQ. They were famous for their pre-amps with built-in EQ and, in later years, they even had power-amps with LED signal-strength arrays, but unless you had two separate units I don't know how you got that combination in a Soundcraftsmen unit. :dont-know:


:D You used the words "bad", "distorted", and "Bose" in the same sentence! :rotfl:

tesla
11-30-2012, 08:13 PM
AFAIK, Soundcraftsmen never made an "amp" with a graphic EQ. They were famous for their pre-amps with built-in EQ and, in later years, they even had power-amps with LED signal-strength arrays, but unless you had two separate units I don't know how you got that combination in a Soundcraftsmen unit. :dont-know:


:D You used the words "bad", "distorted", and "Bose" in the same sentence! :rotfl:

Your right, I did. And that is one reason I have a pair of L65's and a pair of ESS speakers :)

My memory might be fuzzy, (it has been a LONG time) but I swear it had a EQ built in. And, I know it was an amp, because I used it with a preamp.

So If I am wrong about the EQ, show me a list of amps that I can refresh my memory on. And, Soundcraftmen did have a factory in Santa Ana, right?

Titanium Dome
12-01-2012, 10:53 AM
Your right, I did. And that is one reason I have a pair of L65's and a pair of ESS speakers :)

My memory might be fuzzy, (it has been a LONG time) but I swear it had a EQ built in. And, I know it was an amp, because I used it with a preamp.

So If I am wrong about the EQ, show me a list of amps that I can refresh my memory on. And, Soundcraftmen did have a factory in Santa Ana, right?

They were in Santa Ana until MTX acquired them and sent them to Hell. :bomb:

racinoffrd
05-26-2013, 10:35 AM
I am new to this site to get hopefully get some help and knowledge. I'm looking for an onwers manual for a Pro Conrol 4. I will take it as a copy or PDF form. It doesn 't matter to me. I appreciate any help I can get.

racinoffrd
05-26-2013, 11:27 AM
I agree with you titanium dome ,MTX bought a great company and then did away with it. I would really like to know why. My sterio system is Soundcraftsmen and I love it! Accept when I'm trying to get something for it or repairs if needed.

racinoffrd
05-26-2013, 12:58 PM
Does anyone think that JBL L890s can handle two bridged Soundcraftsmen Pro Power 4's at full power? They would put out about 600WPC continuous. Just a thought.

BMWCCA
05-26-2013, 07:17 PM
I'm looking for an onwers manual for a Pro Conrol 4. I will take it as a copy or PDF form. It doesn 't matter to me. I appreciate any help I can get.

I'm pretty sure I have the original manual, but I have two of the original units, too, so I can only offer a copy. I don't recall there being that much information in the small manual, however.
I run the Pro-Control-Four in my two main systems with the Pro-EQ-44. One system uses the Pro-Power-Four and the other has bi-amped Crown PS200/400. I've owned Soundcraftsmen since the early '70s.

The L890 specs say max amp power is 250WPC with the provision:
The maximum recommended amplifier power rating will ensure proper system headroom to allow for occasional peaks. We do not recommend sustained operation at these maximum power levels.I would say the answer to your question would be "no". Full power is . . . full power

Of course the reality of what will happen can only be known once we see how loud you intend to play your music. You might never reach the full output of the Pro-Power-Four. Well, you won't ever need to. :dont-know:

BMWCCA
05-26-2013, 08:34 PM
I posted scans of the Pro-Control manual in your thread over at AK.

racinoffrd
05-27-2013, 11:16 AM
I have a Pro EQ 22. Nobody seems to know what that is , it's a 10 band EQ. How many bands does the Pro EQ44 have? I wonder how similar they are. I really hate the way this text works on this website. I don't have a curser. Am I the only one. Now I have one. I don't know that is, oh well it works.

racinoffrd
05-27-2013, 11:24 AM
I see the post. I'm not sure how to print this I will have to see. I might have to have you Send it to me in another form. If so my e-mail is racinoffrd@aol.com.

BMWCCA
05-27-2013, 05:24 PM
I have a Pro EQ 22. Nobody seems to know what that is , it's a 10 band EQ. How many bands does the Pro EQ44 have? I wonder how similar they are. I really hate the way this text works on this website. I don't have a curser. Am I the only one. Now I have one. I don't know that is, oh well it works.

Pro-EQ 44 is 21 band per channel. 21 + 21 + 2 zero-gain controls = 44 slide pots. Range is 15dB±. The slides are very smooth and free of the stiction of older SC EQs. None of the rectangular knobs, just rubber caps on the slides.


What browser are you using?


The scanned files are simple JPGs. Shouldn't be any problem to view and/or print. Even a Windoze box should be able to handle that!

racinoffrd
05-27-2013, 07:21 PM
I thought I left a post earlier but any way, I just never printed anything off anything that they before, or know anyone that has. I was able to print them off and I thank you for sending them. I owe you one. You made my day.

racinoffrd
05-28-2013, 08:31 AM
How many rack spaces does the Pro EQ 44 take up?

BMWCCA
05-28-2013, 03:11 PM
How many rack spaces does the Pro EQ 44 take up?
It matches the Pro-Control-Four: 2RU

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?28488-EQ-Unity-Gain&p=286989&viewfull=1#post286989

racinoffrd
05-28-2013, 04:36 PM
I bought a lot of my stuff around '89-'90. I don't remember if that was sold then but I wish I would have bought one.

BMWCCA
06-02-2013, 01:04 PM
Anyone want to snag this deal?

You can send it to me and I'll pay you for your trouble, or keep it for yourself. It's a great deal.


Vintage Soundcraftsmen PCR800 Mosfet Power Amp Amplifier 300 Watts. In orig box & packing. EX condition.

Please, no low ball offers or scammers. Call or text: 732 804 8115
$130 Cash pick up or trade
I'm interested in high quality LP records, pre 80's sax, guitar, tube amps, tube stereos, reel to reel tapes

http://jerseyshore.craigslist.org/ele/3830121496.html

59094

racinoffrd
06-02-2013, 05:06 PM
BMWCCA- on the Pro EQ-44


Did it come with a test album or C/D?

BMWCCA
06-02-2013, 06:38 PM
BMWCCA- on the Pro EQ-44

Did it come with a test album or C/D?
I bought my PE2217 new . . . a long time ago. It came with the record, which I still have. I don't think any of the Pro series came with a record. We have tone generators on-line now.

BTW, I never opened the record.

racinoffrd
06-07-2013, 01:11 PM
Mine came with a C/D. It did 10 bands, I was wondering if they did all 21 bands or what did they do?

bigyank
06-10-2013, 06:43 PM
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Soundcraftsmen-PCR800-Mosfet-Power-Amp-Santa-Ana-CA-USA-300-Watts-w-box-/221234296390?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item3382977646

Looks like nobody wanted it to go to the shore to pick it up. I missed this one twice. Looksing for a second PCR-800 to mate to an AB-1 I picked up recently.


Anyone want to snag this deal?

You can send it to me and I'll pay you for your trouble, or keep it for yourself. It's a great deal.



http://jerseyshore.craigslist.org/ele/3830121496.html

59094

racinoffrd
06-25-2013, 12:36 PM
I don't remember if I have already posted this or not. I'm curious if anyone might have a pro Power Four that they would like to sell? Just let me know and I will send my e-mail. I figured this would be the best forum to ask sincence there is lot of Soundcraftsmen people here.

racinoffrd
07-01-2013, 03:06 PM
I'm not in the market for a PCR800. But, I was curious to why this is, why some PCR800's have vent hose for the fan and some have markings for them and some don't have anything at all? It is something I have noticed. Are they different models or what?

bigyank
07-02-2013, 08:21 AM
I'm not in the market for a PCR800. But, I was curious to why this is, why some PCR800's have vent hose for the fan and some have markings for them and some don't have anything at all? It is something I have noticed. Are they different models or what?

I have noticed that as well. The newer ones had only the markings for the vents though each had the gap for a filter. I have also been told the earlier ones had the flashing power LED (which is the one I have and I do find it distracting).

racinoffrd
08-13-2013, 05:27 PM
BMWCCA-were can I go on the web to get one of these tone generators?

BMWCCA
08-13-2013, 08:33 PM
BMWCCA-were can I go on the web to get one of these tone generators?


I'm sure a Google search will turn up plenty of them: http://onlinetonegenerator.com/

I used a machine: http://www.neutrik.co.uk/en-uk/audio/test-and-measurement/dr2

racinoffrd
08-14-2013, 01:35 PM
I am competely clueless on these. How does it since the sound or does it? Or how do you balance out your EQ with it?

BMWCCA
08-14-2013, 06:22 PM
I am competely clueless on these. How does it since the sound or does it? Or how do you balance out your EQ with it?

The tone generators simply supply the sound. You need measurement devices to tell you the relative level at several/many points along the frequency spectrum. I did it with a Rat Shack dB meter but many use dedicated Windoze software and calibrated mics.

racinoffrd
08-15-2013, 11:10 AM
I see, I thought there would be some other equipment needed. Thanks for explanation!:D

racinoffrd
10-02-2013, 04:50 PM
BMWCCA-You said in the past that you have a Pro Power Four. Is there any chance I can get a copy of the owners manual? I know you helped me in the past with the Pro Conthol. If it is to much let me know.

Titanium Dome
11-04-2013, 09:33 AM
With a bit of luck, I'll be posting a number of Soundcraftsmen items for sale over the next few days. Look for them in the General Audio Marketplace. For immediate sale, it'll have to be local pick up only; if there's shipping involved, I can't ship for a couple of weeks.

If I don't get them posted this week, then I can't get to it until mid November.

bigyank
11-04-2013, 10:26 AM
With a bit of luck, I'll be posting a number of Soundcraftsmen items for sale over the next few days. Look for them in the General Audio Marketplace. For immediate sale, it'll have to be local pick up only; if there's shipping involved, I can't ship for a couple of weeks.

If I don't get them posted this week, then I can't get to it until mid November.

Hopefully for me you'll have to ship. Will be watching.....

LowPhreak
04-18-2014, 12:46 AM
Sorry to necro an old thread, but I just got a RP2215-R in from Audio Classics and found the L chan. has no output. Also, the Zero-Gain lights in the center light up, but don't respond to the gain sliders. Maybe some solder joints got broken in transit by the UPS monkeys? Going to ship back to AC and tell them to fix it. The sliders also are pretty grippy, they need cleaning & lube.

Does anyone know the published specs of this unit, i.e. S/N Ratio, THD, etc.?

racinoffrd
08-13-2014, 06:16 PM
I just saw a Soundcraftsmen Power Four-17 on Ebay. Does anyone know what a Power Four-17 is. I'm curious to know what that is. It also has a Control Four-17 for a pre-amp. I just had never heard of such a monster.

BMWCCA
08-14-2014, 04:12 PM
I just saw a Soundcraftsmen Power Four-17 on Ebay. Does anyone know what a Power Four-17 is. I'm curious to know what that is. It also has a Control Four-17 for a pre-amp. I just had never heard of such a monster.
Actually, it shows a Control Three-17 as the pre-amp.

Soundcraftsmen's nomenclature is pretty simple: These are the same as the Pro Control Three and Pro Power Four except they don't have 19-inch rack-mountable front panels. The "17" indicates the size of the front panel. There may be some minor input differences but you'd have to see the backs to be sure. Pretty aggressive prices for stuff that got abused by Parks and Rec in playgrounds and camps.
:banghead:

BTW, anyone have any leads on a replacement relay that powers the switched outlet on a Pro Control Three or Four? I bought one and if I physically move the lever in the relay with power on it will close the circuit and release it on powering-down, but it won't close the circuit on its own. The seller is willing to work with me to make it right but we can't seem to find a replacement relay. Here's a shot of it in-place with the top removed (pencil pointing to relay). Thanks for any help.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c378/BMWCCA1/ProControl4_zps470fd4c6.jpg (http://s31.photobucket.com/user/BMWCCA1/media/ProControl4_zps470fd4c6.jpg.html)

racinoffrd
08-14-2014, 07:27 PM
Your it was a control three. My bad. Thanks for the explanation. I didn't catch that!

racinoffrd
08-15-2014, 06:53 PM
BMWCCA

Have you tried for the Control Four that is on Ebay for parts? They what a pretty penny for it but it's been on there for a while now. Maybe they will take a better price for it. Then you'll have other parts for that pre-amp. In the future I may need a volume pot. Mine was turned past the stops (I believe by my grandson). I just don't know who to send it to, to have fixed. And I can't afford it right now. I
just don't trust any shop to work on my Soundcraftsmen stuff.

BMWCCA
08-15-2014, 07:20 PM
Have you tried for the Control Four that is on Ebay for parts? They what a pretty penny for it but it's been on there for a while now. Maybe they will take a better price for it.
That seller is an A-hole! Plus he's asking more for a non-working unit than I paid for one that works but just won't power-up the switched outlet. I'm going under the assumption that the relay has to be something common I just haven't found yet. And my seller is willing to work with me to compensate for any expense to make it right. And it's the third Pro Control Four I have so it could become a donor in the future, if I needed one.

Right now I'm running one in my main system with Pro EQ 44, Pro Tuner Four, Ashly XR1001, Crown PS400 and PS200, Emotiva XDA-2 and JBL 4345s. The second system is an all-Crown SL2, PL3, FM2 setup available to any of twelve other JBL systems and the second Pro Control Four is in an all Soundcraftsmen system with Pro Tuner Four, Pro EQ 44, and Pro Power Four all racked with other spares.

It's really all for fun the beyond the main system which I use for deep listening.

racinoffrd
08-16-2014, 11:03 AM
I see that you don't need it really bad. Your setting pretty good.


hay by chance, do you have the owners manual for that PP4? If you do and it's not a big problem can you make me a copy? I had all my manuals that one time, but I don't know what happened to them all. So now I'm trying to get all the manuals for my system. The PP4 is one of them. I believe you got me the for the PC4 some time ago. Which I greatly appreciate! I'm still looking for my other pieces.

racinoffrd
09-05-2014, 07:23 PM
I really don't know where to ask this question so I will ask in this thread. Does anyone know if the Soundcraftsmen DC4415(RCA) and the TG3044(1/4") are the same EQ except the Connectors on the back? I ask because they look identical to me but the connectors. I just hope there is someone in this thread that knows.

Goggle1824
09-17-2016, 06:32 AM
I've been picking up some Soundcraftsmen gear recently and hoping I can find some like minded folks here, any of you guys with SC experienced guys still around?

blazer40
09-17-2016, 10:35 AM
Yes! What do you need to know? (or need done..)

-Matt


I've been picking up some Soundcraftsmen gear recently and hoping I can find some like minded folks here, any of you guys with SC experienced guys still around?

Goggle1824
09-17-2016, 03:42 PM
Most immediately I'm looking for the schematic for the PM-860, it just arrived and though described as "fully functional", it is not. It has (at least) a blown 12amp ceramic fuse in it.

Upon replacing that with a 10amp ceramic fuse and putting it on a Dim Bulb Tester, I still have full brightness on the bulb.

Thinking it may be a blown output but sure would be nice to have some additional info to work from on this.

I also have a cx-4100 pre and an A200 & A400 which both will need some level of service in the future.

What are the key pieces and parts to test & replace to get these guys running their best again?

Just a few questions! :crying:

blazer40
09-17-2016, 04:07 PM
I attached a couple to get you started.

The biggest thing to watch for is the large 10W resistor on the power supply board, make sure it hasn't desoldered itsself and that the fan spins on low when the unit is turned on. If you are worried about a blown output, put a voltmeter across the outputs to check for a high dc voltage with no speakers attached.

If you've blown the fuse I am betting that an SCR in the power supply has failed. Look for shorts across one of the SCR's on the power supply board and or a shorted main filter cap, either can take out a fuse. I haven't ever seen a fuse blow because of a bad channel, the protection circuits usually shut the show down before the fuse goes. (But hey, anything can happen right?) :-)


-Matt


Most immediately I'm looking for the schematic for the PM-860, it just arrived and though described as "fully functional", it is not. It has (at least) a blown 12amp ceramic fuse in it.

Upon replacing that with a 10amp ceramic fuse and putting it on a Dim Bulb Tester, I still have full brightness on the bulb.

Thinking it may be a blown output but sure would be nice to have some additional info to work from on this.

I also have a cx-4100 pre and an A200 & A400 which both will need some level of service in the future.

What are the key pieces and parts to test & replace to get these guys running their best again?

Just a few questions! :crying:

Goggle1824
09-17-2016, 05:46 PM
Thank you most kindly! These will certainly help. :applaud:

I didnt blow the fuse, but it tested open so it's blown.:(

i just used the 10A because I had it here, need to check what's actually called for, I believe my 5501 calls for a 5W, don't imagine they are THAT different.

Thanks for the insight regarding the 10W resistor, I'll check that for sure, then onto the SCRs for the power supply, then to the outputs to check for high DC voltage?

Goggle1824
09-19-2016, 03:04 PM
Well, looks like it's, at least, the two negative channel SCRs on the power supply board, they're both measuring low resistance when measured on the DMM (.2 & .3) vs the other two measuring infinite.

going to double back through this thread now to see if there are known current parts numbers available for these, fingers crossed!!!

blazer40
09-19-2016, 05:02 PM
Try disconnecting the two main capacitors and see if either one of them is shorted also. The SCR's are common 4010's, although you can replace them with 4020 or 4025's for higher current capacity. If 1 or more SCR's are shorted you'll want to check the two drive transistors for the SCR's and also each SCR gate has a low value resistor on it, those can go open or really high when the SCR's shorts.

-Matt



Well, looks like it's, at least, the two negative channel SCRs on the power supply board, they're both measuring low resistance when measured on the DMM (.2 & .3) vs the other two measuring infinite.

going to double back through this thread now to see if there are known current parts numbers available for these, fingers crossed!!!

Goggle1824
09-29-2016, 02:50 PM
Well, picked up a couple more SC pieces to futz with.

Brought home a A400 Pro and 2 A200 Pros, one of which has an issue that randomly "flickers" my dim bulb tester, haven't experienced that before :crying:.

These are all MTX-Soundcraftsmen, will be interesting to A/B them against the original "script" Soundcraftsmen gear. :applaud:

Titanium Dome
10-03-2016, 08:57 AM
These are all MTX-Soundcraftsmen, will be interesting to A/B them against the original "script" Soundcraftsmen gear. :applaud:

I have half-a-dozen or more (would have to check what's boxed up) of these A series amps: A400, A200, A100. Most, but not all, have the MTX branding on them. Some with lower serial numbers do not have MTX on the enclosures, only "Soundcraftsmen."

My guess--and it's only a guess--is that these models were already in the pipeline at the time of the unfortunate sale of the company, thus are of true Soundcraftsmen origin. IMO, MTX was not capable of this level of design, didn't know how to market at this level, and couldn't really bring in a "next generation" that would be an actual improvement. So, MTX milked the cow dry, then threw the carcass into the ditch.

It wouldn't be the first time a company bought another and didn't know what to do with it:cough, cough, Harm- cough, cough, -an, cough cough!!

RSK
10-19-2016, 08:31 AM
Hello,
Does any one has the schematics for the A100 model please?

Thank you.

Goggle1824
10-27-2016, 08:52 AM
Try disconnecting the two main capacitors and see if either one of them is shorted also. The SCR's are common 4010's, although you can replace them with 4020 or 4025's for higher current capacity. If 1 or more SCR's are shorted you'll want to check the two drive transistors for the SCR's and also each SCR gate has a low value resistor on it, those can go open or really high when the SCR's shorts.

-Matt

thanks Matt, I have a decent Craftsmen DMM but it does have capacitance, how do I check the main capacitors for shorting/shorted?

Goggle1824
11-18-2016, 04:23 PM
I attached a couple to get you started.

The biggest thing to watch for is the large 10W resistor on the power supply board, make sure it hasn't desoldered itsself and that the fan spins on low when the unit is turned on.

Matt - could be a silly and/or obvious answer here but I'm a relative newbie so I'm going to ask...

If that large 10W resistor did become unsoldered, would the fan only just spin on high (very high in fact) when the amp is turned on? :dont-know: Because that's what's happening on an A400 I have.

Thanks?

blazer40
11-25-2016, 01:30 AM
Unfortunately no, when these big ballast resistors become unsoldered the fans stop and *ONLY* spin when the protection circuits kick in. I almost always put 15 or 20 watt units in (they are usually bigger and can expel heat better) to keep board temps down. I would say this is the biggest failure point with the mosfet amps with fans. I have repaired a bunch of these units and have seen some pretty interesting *fixes* that people have devised when the fans stop running on low.



Matt - could be a silly and/or obvious answer here but I'm a relative newbie so I'm going to ask...

If that large 10W resistor did become unsoldered, would the fan only just spin on high (very high in fact) when the amp is turned on? :dont-know: Because that's what's happening on an A400 I have.

Thanks?

blazer40
11-25-2016, 01:32 AM
Just use a dmm in resistance mode and put the probes across the terminals, you'll see the shorted ones immediately.



thanks Matt, I have a decent Craftsmen DMM but it does have capacitance, how do I check the main capacitors for shorting/shorted?

Goggle1824
01-26-2017, 05:38 AM
The primary caps appear to test fine, I tested with a Blue ESR meter, both caps tested within range.

Thinking I should check rail voltages next in chasing down this fan that runs only on high.

BGSputnik
10-11-2018, 01:48 AM
Do you happen to have the schematic for the SOUNDCRAFTSMAN FOUR amplifier ?
I cant find, I am especially interested in the adjustment of the four trimmers.

The Rebel
03-01-2019, 06:23 PM
Hi, I'm new to the board, found this site looking for info on a SC PCR800 that has an issue with high rail voltage on one channel. I hate to see a thread with this much info in it die off.
Should I start a new thread with my amp issues, or piggyback onto this thread? Is there a tech in here that is familiar with the PCR800 PS circuits, namely the regulator? Thanks for a great site.
Kevin

Mr. Widget
03-02-2019, 09:58 AM
You might try a new thread. It’s really a crapshoot as to who may notice a given thread and respond to it.

FWIW: I used to have a pile of those compact amps. Soundcraftsmen made a number of variations. I’m not sure what the differences were.

Widget

rickedd46
03-03-2019, 06:05 PM
You might try a new thread. It’s really a crapshoot as to who may notice a given thread and respond to it. FWIW: I used to have a pile of those compact amps. Soundcraftsmen made a number of variations. I’m not sure what the differences were. Widget Hello, The PCR800, PM840 and PRO POWER ONE use 4 output mosfets per channel, the PM860 uses 6. The PCR800 uses four S4010L 10A 400V SCRs on the power supply while the PM840, PRO POWER ONE and PM860 use four S4020L 20A 400V SCRs. Hence the higher current. Rick.

Mr. Widget
03-03-2019, 07:08 PM
Hello, The PCR800, PM840 and PRO POWER ONE use 4 output mosfets per channel, the PM860 uses 6. The PCR800 uses four S4010L 10A 400V SCRs on the power supply while the PM840, PRO POWER ONE and PM860 use four S4020L 20A 400V SCRs. Hence the higher current. Rick.Interesting, I believe I had a pair of PM860s and a single PM840 in a home theater set up. I used one channel of each for the HF and the other channel for the woofer on three identical two-way speakers performing LCR duty. I never noticed a difference between the two amp designs.


Widget

rickedd46
03-04-2019, 09:54 PM
Interesting, I believe I had a pair of PM860s and a single PM840 in a home theater set up. I used one channel of each for the HF and the other channel for the woofer on three identical two-way speakers performing LCR duty. I never noticed a difference between the two amp designs. Widget The specs are the same on those 3 amplifiers down to 2 ohms stereo, 4 ohms mono. Performance wise there is no noticeable difference unless the load drops below that limit which then the PM860 (S860) will handle it with less stress due to its higher output current. That's why it was marketed as part of the professional line. I have run all those models in 4 ohms mono, 2 ohms stereo at consistent loud levels with no issues. http://www.hifi-classic.net/review/soundcraftsmen-pcr800-498.html http://ampslab.com/blog/2018/09/30/soundcraftsmen-pcr800/