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Andyoz
04-21-2009, 07:02 AM
There has been mention of the wee S4600 a few times here. Has anyone actually heard them yet.

I will be moving the 250Ti's into a new big, reveberant room in a few weeks and I suspect I may be disappointed. My listening distance is 4-5m away so the direct to reverberant ratio will not be good :(

Trying to plan my next move. S9800 prices have softended in Japan since the S9900 was released. Still alot of money though and I have kids so don't want them wrecked.

The S4600 keeps catching my eye.

http://www.audiounion.jp/bin/detail/used/29165/

38729

4313B
04-21-2009, 07:36 AM
Don McRitchie has. Steve Schell may have as well.

The S9900 is considered a substantial upgrade to the S9800.

Andyoz
04-21-2009, 08:10 AM
The S9900 is considered a substantial upgrade to the S9800.

I'd hope so judging by the price...does it go lower than the S9800 as the potential lack of bottom end kick is what keeps me away from them (and the money as well). If I had something that big in my living room, I'd want it to flap my trousers without a sub :)

4313B
04-21-2009, 12:26 PM
I'd hope so judging by the price...does it go lower than the S9800 as the potential lack of bottom end kick is what keeps me away from them (and the money as well). If I had something that big in my living room, I'd want it to flap my trousers without a sub :)S4600

LE14H-4
2.8 cu ft tuned to 38 Hz
-3 dB at 50 Hz
-6 dB at 35 Hz

K2-S9800

1500AL
4.0 cu ft tuned to 30 Hz
-3 dB at 60 Hz (Anechoic)
-6 dB at 50 Hz (Anechoic)

K2-S9900

1500AL-1
3.4 cu ft tuned to 34 Hz
-3 dB at 60 Hz (Anechoic), at 50 Hz (2 Pi)
-6 dB at 50 Hz (Anechoic), at 34 Hz (2Pi)

"Old" discontinued LE14H-3 in 1400 Array

3.2 cu ft tuned to 31 Hz
-3 dB at 35 Hz
-6 dB at 32 Hz (Anechoic)

Andyoz
04-21-2009, 01:10 PM
Interesting that the -6dB point for the S4600 is 15Hz less than the S9800...that's over half an octave lower ...that's noticeable.

I really like the idea of sticking with the LE14H family but matching them with horns. I like my 250Ti's anyway.

Apart from the Array 1400 (no way will they get past the wife/toddler test), I can't think of any other LE14H horn systems. They must be floor stadners...no placing 4338's on stands, etc.

pos
04-21-2009, 05:33 PM
Thanks for sharing these data with us 4313B !

To illustrate 4313B's figures, here are the curves using WinISD.

Caveats: I do not have the T/S for the 1501AL, so I simulated a 1500AL in the S9900 enclosure. I hope they are close enough.

I think WinISB is meant to simulate 2Pi steradian loading, with an infinite baffle.

Steve Schell
04-21-2009, 11:56 PM
You know 4313B, I'm not sure. Don and I attended CES together one year, and we heard two different systems in the JBL room on the main floor of the Lost Wages Convention Center. One system was the S9800 and the other, similar, smaller system might have been this one. Don probably took pictures, and he remembers everything, so if he chimes in we'll find out. The smaller systems sounded similar to the 9800s with a bit higher bass rolloff. One repressed memory is that the JBL rep made a point of demonstrating how the S9800s are clean when driven to 120dB peaks. I had my fingers in my ears and just wanted out at that point.

jomina
04-22-2009, 02:06 AM
...no placing 4338's on stands, etc.
Ha, it would take a couple of guys like this

http://www.scrum.com/PICTURES/CMS/4200/4201.jpg

to knock over a pair of 4338s on low stands.

The 4600s look interesting and a lot less like sarcophagi than the 9800s.
Horn is wider, though.
I suspect your 250s may well work in the room. Play around with turn-in to minimize first reflections (and leave the 4600s to me :-))

Joel

Ian Mackenzie
04-22-2009, 02:24 AM
I'd hope so judging by the price...does it go lower than the S9800 as the potential lack of bottom end kick is what keeps me away from them (and the money as well). If I had something that big in my living room, I'd want it to flap my trousers without a sub :)

I heard them in Tokyo.

They are a different approach to the Blue series monitors and are more of a Hifi style. Typcially the Blue monitors exhibit a hump in the mid bass. The 4600 is design for a flat in room response. To my ear they were clean, transparent and open. I put that down to the ligher cone.

Ralph856
04-22-2009, 04:48 AM
I will be moving the 250Ti's into a new big, reveberant room in a few weeks and I suspect I may be disappointed. My listening distance is 4-5m away so the direct to reverberant ratio will not be good :(


Andy, is there anything to stop you carrying out basic treatment of the room- even just a couple of bass traps and absortive panels at first reflection points? But I guess there's a reason why you can't?

4313B
04-22-2009, 08:09 AM
One repressed memory is that the JBL rep made a point of demonstrating how the S9800s are clean when driven to 120dB peaks. I had my fingers in my ears and just wanted out at that point.I hate when they do that...

Andyoz
04-22-2009, 12:49 PM
Andy, is there anything to stop you carrying out basic treatment of the room- even just a couple of bass traps and absortive panels at first reflection points? But I guess there's a reason why you can't?

It's an unusual room with very little symmetry. It's L-shaped for a start and the rear wall is actually a massive German sliding door that's 4.4m wide. The speakers will be firing down the room towards the glass that's 7.5m away. My seating position will be 4.5m from the speakers (near the stone column in photo). I can put some heavy drapes in front of that glass provided I can get something long enough :(

I will be doing some analysis on the room but I'm constrained with regards to acoustic treatments as there is very little free surfaces to actually place them.

One of the side walls has a massive sandstone fireplace, which will be nice for diffusion at least :). I need to keep the lateral dispersion controlled with horns I think to have any hope of getting it right in the sweet spot.

38752

38751

Ralph856
04-22-2009, 02:10 PM
That's a lovely-looking room regardless of the acoustics. If it were mine (which it isn't :(), I'd definitely opt for large speakers that were at least part horn- not just to control dispersion but because I like what horns do and a room that size would suitable.


My seating position will be 4.5m from the speakers (near the stone column in photo).


I can just visualise you there, dude, listening to S9500's with a big grin :).

Andyoz
04-22-2009, 02:41 PM
That's a lovely-looking room regardless of the acoustics. If it were mine (which it isn't :()

Ha, ha, that room isn't mine...it belongs to the bank.:)

Anyway, now you can see what I mean about the 250's maybe struggling in there to reach the savagely high levels I sometimes run to give me my music fix. I need those horns to shoot the mid-high's at me like a dart. We work with some high-end PA gear and I was listening to a demo of some L-Acoustics "Kiva" (wee line arrays) with a guy playing acoustic guitar through them. It was ridiculous how well a single array of those fill a relatively large room. And that's a horn desinged to to be bulletproof so I need to get up to speed on what the more delicate modern domestic stuff can do.

If I wasn't married with kids, I'd be looking seriously at some big format double 15's with horns.

Andyoz
04-22-2009, 02:50 PM
I can just visualise you there, dude, listening to S9500's with a big grin :).

Hang on, did you mean S9800? If you didn't well you read my mind as I noticed Audiounion has a few pairs of S9500's. Those things still look like something from the space-age and from what I can tell, were designed in the late 80's, early 90's?

http://www.audiounion.jp/bin/detail/used/27906/

38753

Andyoz
04-22-2009, 02:57 PM
They are a different approach to the Blue series monitors and are more of a Hifi style. Typcially the Blue monitors exhibit a hump in the mid bass.

Ian,

When you say blue series, do you include the new 4338, etc in that? I actually think the hump in the mid-bass is what I need, I find that gives music the bogey factor.

Whenever I go through this idea of buying modern JBL horns, the advice on the forum seems to come back to the new 4338...formates as where I should be looking as it has the good old JBL kick butt bass. It's the idea iof stands that doesn't appeal.

Sounds like the only way I would get to the bottom of this is to visit Japan. Maybe I will take a detour when I go back to Oz for a visit...

Ralph856
04-22-2009, 03:53 PM
Hang on, did you mean S9800? If you didn't well you read my mind as I noticed Audiounion has a few pairs of S9500's.

I must be in the know ;)

Ralph856
04-22-2009, 04:06 PM
It was ridiculous how well a single array of those fill a relatively large room. And that's a horn desinged to to be bulletproof so I need to get up to speed on what the more delicate modern domestic stuff can do.

If I wasn't married with kids, I'd be looking seriously at some big format double 15's with horns.

Never mind about double 15's and single arrays, tonight I am blown away by a pair of humble L19's driven by a t-amp. Big,warm yet clear sound with copious bass driving my room brilliantly even at low volume. Suffice to say, I'm delighted with what I'm hearing :D. Admittably, the room is a third the size of yours. Ooooh, back to the music.

jomina
04-22-2009, 04:16 PM
Sounds like the only way I would get to the bottom of this is to visit Japan. Maybe I will take a detour when I go back to Oz for a visit...Good plan. The sushi is on me!
The 9500s are real beasts and weigh something like 150kgs each... You'd make the shipping company very, very happy.
Will add my thoughts, for what they're worth on the 4338 vs 4343 etc later. I love them all in any case.

Ralph856
04-22-2009, 04:25 PM
Wow,what an amazing cat!

macaroonie
04-22-2009, 04:34 PM
Wots all that copper pipe for Andy ? Are you making poteen ? :D Nice room BTW , it will all fall into place omce you get carpet / rugs etc. No reason not to get 4338 and build some neat solid bases for them , even double as a hiding hole for an amp or two under each speaker. M

opimax
04-22-2009, 05:00 PM
Andy,

As a 250Ti owner sitting too close to his before you count the TIs out of the picture have thought of trying them there 1st? I sometimes think they sound better from another room further away(in some ways).

Do you have a subwith yours?

If you want new speakers, you want new speakers but that being said...


Mark

jomina
04-23-2009, 06:23 AM
before you count the TIs out of the picture have thought of trying them there 1st?
The size of the room means that first-reflections may not be a problem - at least from side-wall reflections. OTOH, a listening position of 4+ metres would seem to call for the controlled dispersion offered by a horn. I suspect that with careful positioning and maybe some DSP, the 250s could work really well in Andy's room.
Of course once you get a yen for really big JBLs rationality and logic go out the window...

Ralph856
04-23-2009, 06:32 AM
Andy,
As a 250Ti owner sitting too close to his before you count the TIs out of the picture have thought of trying them there 1st? I sometimes think they sound better from another room further away(in some ways).


A bit of a unusual suggestion but I agree- my system sounds excellent from the bathroom- bass is at its deepest and I hear far less of the listening room in the sound.

Andyoz
04-23-2009, 07:02 AM
Andy,

As a 250Ti owner sitting too close to his before you count the TIs out of the picture have thought of trying them there 1st? I sometimes think they sound better from another room further away(in some ways).

Do you have a subwith yours?

Mark

I will be keeping the 250's no matter what happens. I am not using a sub and don't want the hassle of extra boxes, etc. so all the bass has to come from the mains.

Will be in the room the weekend after next so will start to get an idea of how it goes.

richluvsound
04-23-2009, 07:10 AM
Andy,

I have trouser movers here for sale:D . Perfect for that room !

Rich

Andyoz
04-23-2009, 07:23 AM
Rich, you're a bad man.

I am still getting over my first audition of your 4345's. The two problems are.... i) transport, and ii) the wife!!

Did you ever get grilles for them?

Oh bugger, you've got me wondering now...

richluvsound
04-23-2009, 07:32 AM
Hi Andy,

Funny you should mention grills, I'm bodging them together at moment.

What colour grill cloth would the boss like ?

Seriously, rent a van and I'll come with you and fly back. Besides, she wouldn't dare beat you with me there LOL .Mind you, your good lady hails from the emerald isle and they are a fearsome breed. We could both end up in plaster cast :blink:

Rich

Andyoz
04-23-2009, 07:38 AM
aaaah....

Could make an interesting trip. The last time I did the ferry run was to get the 250's and Customs wanted to open the things up at Holyhead, they looked like coffins laying in the back of the hatchback.

Timings all wrong, our third born is due in a month. This whole scenario reminds me of this (Rich = Judge Reinhold) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19CvEO3Riy0

richluvsound
04-23-2009, 07:50 AM
Ok, I guess as long as your the guy in the ferrari jacket . :applaud:

Andyoz
04-23-2009, 07:53 AM
If you put "DOMINATOR X-1" on those new grilles, I'll might be interested...

Seriously, are you going to put them out to open market soon?

richluvsound
04-23-2009, 08:05 AM
I had agreed a deal with someone ,thats why I'm making the grills. However, he's got quiet so I dont even know if still wants them.

I wiil probably end up parting them out and moving two refuge families into the cabinets at a very high rent !

Andyoz
04-23-2009, 08:31 AM
I know the woofers were immaculate recone jobs but what about the other drivers. I can't even remember if they are CC'd?

richluvsound
04-23-2009, 10:33 AM
Everything is brand new . If they were
in the states they'd be gone at the price I'm asking. Maybe I'll end up keeping them and use the westies for rear HT duty :applaud:

Andyoz
04-23-2009, 11:11 AM
Which Westies?:blink:

Andyoz
04-24-2009, 02:57 AM
Talking about Westlakes, I posted a thread here a year ago about a 20 year old set of BBSM12's that were to be taken from an old studio.

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=22496&highlight=bbsm12

Just rang the studio fitout contractor and they have had another newer (10 year oldish) pair of BBSM12's come in the from RTE Studios, the Irish national broadcaster. They are just sitting there waiting for someone to make an offer. I need to check out if they are the older model with Audax woofers or the newer model with Focal woofers. I really can't resist. Would need some big bloody stands though (and grilles) :)

richluvsound
04-24-2009, 04:05 AM
Which Westies?:blink:
:D Kens hand me downs

Andyoz
04-24-2009, 04:19 AM
Ah, you got the BBSM-8's. Have they arrived yet?

richluvsound
04-24-2009, 05:04 AM
Not yet . I think I'll ship them surface though. :)

baldrick
04-24-2009, 06:46 AM
If you consider K2, keep an eye on the Danish market. There were recently a pair of 9800 for a VERY good price but they are gone now. Right now there is also a pair of S4800 (http://www.hifi4all.dk/ksb/Annonce.asp?id=115713)for sale with the excellent 1200FE.

http://www.hifi4all.dk/forum/uploads/Jblfan/2009-02-13_234735_IMG_4.jpg

Andyoz
04-24-2009, 07:05 AM
Yes, I actually saw those but I think the seller is asking the equivalent of £5.5k which edges into S9800 territory in the current market.:)

baldrick
04-24-2009, 11:02 AM
I didn't realize that the GBP was that low compared to DKR, neither that K2 was that cheap in UK :o: If you can get a pair of S9800 for that price in UK, I should consider importing a pair or two to Norway, here the price would be at least 3 times for a used pair, maybe more! The retail are aprox £25-30.000 :(

Andyoz
04-24-2009, 11:13 AM
There was a pair of 9800 (not SE) on UK eBay about 2 years ago that went for £7k to a French buyer.

I didn't have the room for them then...

Ian Mackenzie
04-24-2009, 04:22 PM
Ian,

When you say blue series, do you include the new 4338, etc in that? I actually think the hump in the mid-bass is what I need, I find that gives music the bogey factor.

Whenever I go through this idea of buying modern JBL horns, the advice on the forum seems to come back to the new 4338...formates as where I should be looking as it has the good old JBL kick butt bass. It's the idea iof stands that doesn't appeal.

Sounds like the only way I would get to the bottom of this is to visit Japan. Maybe I will take a detour when I go back to Oz for a visit...

4338 = Blue Series ( see the JBL/Japan Harman in the read only area)

The main distinction is the bass tuning and position of the woofer relative from the floor and front wall boundaries.

If you put the 4338 and the 4600 near the front wall (where most systems are placed) the 4338 will have a charactertistic hump from 100 hertz or so down to 40-50 hertz. Unless its on a stand well of the floor the mids will also be effected.

In comparison the 4600 is tuned differently in that when placed near the front wall boundary its bass will sound smooth and the mid range clear (the woofer is raised ).

The 4338 has a larger horn and is crossed over a bit lower than the 4600.

It would be interesting to hear the 4800 and compare to the 4600.

The 4600 is more of a Hifi loudspeaker and is pitched to compete with the likes of the mid size Tannoys.

There is a trend towards taller high-boy loudspeakers (ie the Druids,some of the Klipsch,Monitor Audio and others) and I think this is where the 4600 is at.

As Greg is quote as saying the 4600 sounds far better than it has any right to. Sometimes a system (the sum of its parts) works really well. I think part of this lies in the improved bandwidth of the deritative of the LE14H used in the 4600.

The older Japanese audiophile who grew up with 4333's will aspire to the 4338.

I did hear the 4338 set up properly and I was impressed.

The 4345 is different again. With the 2245H it couples even more so to floor wall boundaries and unless equalised or raised up off the floor and is wellaway from the front wall the bass will be excessive and not optimum.

I dont think opinion stands for much unless you can say you have actually heard and compare these systems directly.

JBL

Andyoz
04-24-2009, 05:13 PM
Thanks Ian.

I'm getting a good feel for what these new JBL systems are all about.

jomina
04-24-2009, 07:12 PM
Great post Ian. Thank you.
I would say that in addition to distance from room boundaries, room size and construction also play a big part in how a loudspeaker will work in any given situation.
For instance a room constructed from timber will be relatively lossy and not offer very much in the way of boundary lift, whereas a room made from 30cm reinforced concrete (eg mine) will give quite a bit of lift.
All rooms have nodes (basically points where the bass "rings"), but in smaller rooms the nodes will be at a higher frequency. IME, "typical" Euro/Japanese rooms have nodes in approximately the 40~50Hz region. Sadly this is also where many speakers have their ports tuned... One of the advantages of big speakers in small rooms is that this problem (of ports driving nodes) effectively disappears.
Bass is something that can and should be Eq'd IMO, but it's easier to eq a smooth curve than a spike.

4313B
04-25-2009, 06:22 AM
As Greg is quote as saying the 4600 sounds far better than it has any right to. Sometimes a system (the sum of its parts) works really well. I think part of this lies in the improved bandwidth of the deritative of the LE14H used in the 4600.I attribute it to things learned during the development of the D66000. The LE14H-4 seems to have knocked the LE14H-3 into obsolete NLA status which I personally think is a shame. I view the LE14H-3 as the last of the 'classic' JBL woofers. Oh well. :dont-know The newer woofers all work better in the intended marketplace - Japan. They don't have the 124/2203/LE14/136/2231/2235/2245 kind of bottom end which can end up being quite heavy in some rooms.

If you put the 4338 and the 4600 near the front wall (where most systems are placed) the 4338 will have a charactertistic hump from 100 hertz or so down to 40-50 hertz. Unless it's on a stand well off the floor the mids will also be effected.:yes:

Andyoz
04-25-2009, 04:19 PM
The LE14H-4 seems to have knocked the LE14H-3 into obsolete NLA status which I personally think is a shame. I view the LE14H-3 as the last of the 'classic' JBL woofers.:yes:

I have LE14H-3's in my 250Ti's as they were cheaper to buy than a LE14H-1 recone. The LE14H-1's are safely boxed away....I'm keeping up the JBL tradition :)

Ian Mackenzie
04-25-2009, 05:59 PM
Great post Ian. Thank you.
I would say that in addition to distance from room boundaries, room size and construction also play a big part in how a loudspeaker will work in any given situation.
For instance a room constructed from timber will be relatively lossy and not offer very much in the way of boundary lift, whereas a room made from 30cm reinforced concrete (eg mine) will give quite a bit of lift.
All rooms have nodes (basically points where the bass "rings"), but in smaller rooms the nodes will be at a higher frequency. IME, "typical" Euro/Japanese rooms have nodes in approximately the 40~50Hz region. Sadly this is also where many speakers have their ports tuned... One of the advantages of big speakers in small rooms is that this problem (of ports driving nodes) effectively disappears.
Bass is something that can and should be Eq'd IMO, but it's easier to eq a smooth curve than a spike.

Hi Jomina,

Nice of you to be posting here.

I agree its very room dependant but there is no question the 4600 is more room placement friendly.

When I heard the 4338 properly set-up the dealer had them well out into the room on stands that were at least 30 cm high.

It sounded really good but is probably not very WAF acceptable in the Japanese household.

What was interesting was that in one dealers high end listening room (in Tokyo) the Rep was a lady and she explained the trend towards high boy designs.

Either way JBL have a devoted following with such fabulous loudspeakers.

There was a JBL slogan a long time back "nothing even comes close" and you are left with that impression after auditioning these systems.

andywin
04-26-2009, 03:18 AM
Apart from the Array 1400 (no way will they get past the wife/toddler test)

What's wrong with the Array's? My wife hated the style of the 9500 & 9800 series.
Surprisingly she likes the Arrays and so do all of her friends who have seen them.

4313B
04-26-2009, 09:48 AM
What's wrong with the Array's? My wife hated the style of the 9500 & 9800 series.
Surprisingly she likes the Arrays and so do all of her friends who have seen them.Well I think that's great that some people like the way they look because they sure sound good!

Mr. Widget
04-26-2009, 10:15 AM
Well I think that's great that some people like the way they look because they sure sound good!Their look is actually growing on me. When I first saw them, I really thought they were odd looking, and while it is true they don't look like more traditional systems like the S4600, they are well made, beautifully finished, and purposeful.


Widget

andywin
04-26-2009, 11:28 AM
Their look is actually growing on me. When I first saw them, I really thought they were odd looking, and while it is true they don't look like more traditional systems like the S4600, they are well made, beautifully finished, and purposeful.


Widget

That's what I found, pictures don't do them justice and seem to accentuate the starkness of the horn and I think it's also that we have all got used to seeing horns in a horizontal plane and these challenge the norm.
Also, I have a victorian villa that is decorated in period style and they somehow don't look out of place whereas the 43XX types do.

Andyoz
04-26-2009, 01:05 PM
What's wrong with the Array's? My wife hated the style of the 9500 & 9800 series.
Surprisingly she likes the Arrays and so do all of her friends who have seen them.

I need to see them in the flesh I think. I take it you a pair?

It just looks like the horn wants to snap off or something????

Hoerninger
04-26-2009, 01:15 PM
I need to see them in the flesh I think.
They deserve it.
____________
Peter

Andyoz
04-26-2009, 01:17 PM
A pair was sold on UK eBay for crazy money a while back. They were ex-demo and barely fetched 1/3rd of retail price I recall.

Someone got a bargain..:)

andywin
04-26-2009, 01:36 PM
I need to see them in the flesh I think. I take it you a pair?


Yep, Amazing speakers that should not be dismissed lightly.



It just looks like the horn wants to snap off or something????


Built like the proverbial brick outhouse and a very clever design. Might have been nice to have CC'd Xovers but then again they sound so good as is, maybe GT determined they weren't necessary....

Hoerninger
04-26-2009, 01:46 PM
Might have been nice to have CC'd Xovers but then again they sound so good as is, maybe GT determined they weren't necessary....
Ehh ... do you remember this? :wave:
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=23763
___________
Peter :)

4313B
04-26-2009, 01:47 PM
Might have been nice to have CC'd Xovers but then again they sound so good as is, maybe GT determined they weren't necessary....Price points! All four of GT's personal "1200 Arrays" are CC'd. He's also bi-amping though so alot of passive parts are missing.

andywin
04-26-2009, 02:19 PM
Ehh ... do you remember this? :wave:
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=23763
___________
Peter :)

Yes I do but I wouldn't have thought that CCing added a significant additional cost to the manufacturing process. What would it entail..... 6 resistors, some wire, batteries & terminals. Battery access could have been built into the cabinet above the binding posts.
I am still contemplating the GT mods for bi-amping but at present am enjoying them as is with my new MF 550K amps.

4313B
04-26-2009, 02:43 PM
Yes I do but I wouldn't have thought that CCing added a significant additional cost to the manufacturing process. What would it entail..... 6 resistors, some wire, batteries & terminals. Battery access could have been built into the cabinet above the binding posts.Double capacitor number and size, dramatically increased mounting board space.
I am still contemplating the GT mods for bi-amping but at present am enjoying them as is with my new MF 550K amps.:thmbsup:

Andyoz
04-26-2009, 02:52 PM
S4600

LE14H-4
2.8 cu ft tuned to 38 Hz
-3 dB at 50 Hz
-6 dB at 35 Hz

K2-S9800

1500AL
4.0 cu ft tuned to 30 Hz
-3 dB at 60 Hz (Anechoic)
-6 dB at 50 Hz (Anechoic)

K2-S9900

1500AL-1
3.4 cu ft tuned to 34 Hz
-3 dB at 60 Hz (Anechoic), at 50 Hz (2 Pi)
-6 dB at 50 Hz (Anechoic), at 34 Hz (2Pi)

"Old" discontinued LE14H-3 in 1400 Array

3.2 cu ft tuned to 31 Hz
-3 dB at 35 Hz
-6 dB at 32 Hz (Anechoic)

Just revisitng these specs and the difference in low-freq extension between the Array 1400 and the the newer JBL offering is major.

I really do think I should be staying with a LE14H-3 based system as losing 20Hz extension is a deal breaker for me. :)

Will have the 250's in there next weekend so will know soon enough how they go.

4313B
04-26-2009, 03:08 PM
Just revisitng these specs and the difference in low-freq extension between the Array 1400 and the the newer JBL offering is major.Yeah it is, in real life too.


I really do think I should be staying with a LE14H-3 based system as losing 20Hz extension is a deal breaker for me. :)

Will have the 250's in there next weekend so will know soon enough how they go.Just so you know, the 240Ti (very slightly, 3.5 cu ft tuned to ~ 30-32 Hz) and 250Ti (more noticable, 4.0 cu ft tuned to ~ 28 Hz) go a bit lower than the 1400 Array. The 1400 Array is dynamic as all hell though so you should be pretty happy about it.

Andyoz
04-26-2009, 03:17 PM
Yeah it is, in real life too.Just so you know, the 240Ti (very slightly, 3.5 cu ft tuned to ~ 30 Hz) and 250Ti (more noticable, 4.0 cu ft tuned to ~ 28 Hz) go a bit lower than the 1400 Array. The 1400 Array is dynamic as all hell though so you should be pretty happy about it.

Great, was just searching the forum for the 250Ti tuning and you have read my mind.

Although, I don't really understand why the sensitivity of the Array 1400 is a modest 89dB. All the other horn systems seem to push well above 90dB (93-94dB) and that 4-5dB differential will be significant in my large room. Is this a function of the designers sacrificing sensitivity for bass extension?

4313B
04-26-2009, 05:13 PM
Is this a function of the designers sacrificing sensitivity for bass extension?Yes.

The current rage is to use the more sensitive drivers and then add a couple dB EQ to fill in the bottom if needed.

Although, I don't really understand why the sensitivity of the Array 1400 is a modest 89dB.The LE14H-1 and LE14H-3 have a nice heavy cone that doesn't flex much.

andywin
04-26-2009, 09:56 PM
Great, was just searching the forum for the 250Ti tuning and you have read my mind.

Although, I don't really understand why the sensitivity of the Array 1400 is a modest 89dB. All the other horn systems seem to push well above 90dB (93-94dB) and that 4-5dB differential will be significant in my large room. Is this a function of the designers sacrificing sensitivity for bass extension?

My listening room is 5.2m x 4.5m x 3.2m giving about 90m3 volume. The Array's can go louder that I would be comfortable with, They are incredible on transients but you do need an amp that can stay with them.

jomina
04-27-2009, 05:40 AM
When I heard the 4338 properly set-up the dealer had them well out into the room on stands that were at least 30 cm high in my room, this would be the case, but in other rooms, the story might be very different. That said, 4X need to be lifted off the floor IME (and that's always how they're set-up in Japan, usually with carpet or foam stuffed in the resulting gap between speaker and floor). The 39Hz port tuning on the 4600 is enough reason to be careful for those of us in small spaces.


It sounded really good but is probably not very WAF acceptable in the Japanese household.

Most 4338s will have been placed in dedicated listening rooms, which have become something of a tradition amongst well-healed Japanese men since the sixties. These are often quite small rooms....

The 4600s will work in rooms where aesthetics are important. I confirmed on the weekend that they're very well-made and handsome and only 30cm deep, so they will integrate easily with modern flat-screen TVs. Will check on the sound shortly.


Either way JBL have a devoted following with such fabulous loudspeakers.Have to agree with that.

Ian Mackenzie
04-27-2009, 08:54 PM
I have been asked what amps were used when I auditioned these systems in Japan.

They were either Mac's or Passlabs (mono blocks)

mcds
04-28-2009, 07:37 AM
in my room, this would be the case, but in other rooms, the story might be very different. That said, 4X need to be lifted off the floor IME (and that's always how they're set-up in Japan, usually with carpet or foam stuffed in the resulting gap between speaker and floor). The 39Hz port tuning on the 4600 is enough reason to be careful for those of us in small spaces.



Most 4338s will have been placed in dedicated listening rooms, which have become something of a tradition amongst well-healed Japanese men since the sixties. These are often quite small rooms....

The 4600s will work in rooms where aesthetics are important. I confirmed on the weekend that they're very well-made and handsome and only 30cm deep, so they will integrate easily with modern flat-screen TVs. Will check on the sound shortly.

Have to agree with that.

A few of us heard the 4600 at a dealer's when we knocked on your door but found you were off somewhere. In the middle of a room and driven by all-Linn, they sounded great.

Andyoz
04-28-2009, 10:59 AM
Talking about Westlakes, I posted a thread here a year ago about a 20 year old set of BBSM12's that were to be taken from an old studio.

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=22496&highlight=bbsm12

Just rang the studio fitout contractor and they have had another newer (10 year oldish) pair of BBSM12's come in the from RTE Studios, the Irish national broadcaster. They are just sitting there waiting for someone to make an offer. I need to check out if they are the older model with Audax woofers or the newer model with Focal woofers. I really can't resist. Would need some big bloody stands though (and grilles) :)

Just back tracking a bit, but I heard the Westlake BBSM12's today. Will start another thread about them as they had some "issues" :):o:

jomina
04-28-2009, 04:01 PM
A few of us heard the 4600 at a dealer's when we knocked on your door but found you were off somewhere. In the middle of a room and driven by all-Linn, they sounded great.
danke. In the middle of the room is a little scary, but we have lots of books and I'm not afraid to eq...
A little OT (sorry Andy!), but as you may remember our bedroom is a Japanese 6 tatami room complete with sliding door that is attached to the living room. The plan is to turn that whole area into the living room complete with <gasp> comfortable sofa </gasp>.
The back story is that Miho is a fan of Haruki Murakami, who is a fan of JBL. QED.
That said, the Yamahas are wonderful in so many areas and their flaws non fatal - at least to me, so that any eventual replacement would have to prove itself quite astonishingly brilliant.

Andyoz
05-02-2009, 03:58 PM
Room was carpeted on Friday so had a listen with the 250's last night. Mixed reaction really.

Initially, I liked the added ambience a large room brings but then some "bass" issues showed themselves. The 250's definitely are not shy in terms of LF output, they really can dig deep in a big room. This new room has some strong modes and this can lead to "one-note" bass on sustained low-frequency content. I will measure these fully once I get a chance to set up the test rig. I suspect it is around 50-60Hz.

The other thing I find is that to get the mid-high energy loud enough for me at the listening position (~5m away), it inherently means I am running higher overall levels and the bass level is higher when compared to my previous smaller room. By this I mean that in the smaller room, the direct to reflected ratio at the mid-highs is inherently higher than in a large room for a speaker like the 250 with high dispersion. Put the same speakers in a larger room and the direct energy at the mid-high's falls but the room modes are still strong.

I now actually think that a more controlled LF roll-off may well suite this room.

I plan to pull the 120Ti's from storage and have a listen to what a different bass tuning sounds like. :)

jomina
05-03-2009, 04:04 PM
That's certainly not the result I was expecting! Fascinating info, though.
You could eq the bass balance down, which should help with the nodes, too.
Yet another reason to dislike wide dispersion / narrow baffle designs. It begs the question of what kind of room these do work well in...

Andyoz
05-03-2009, 04:48 PM
I did predict this (sort of!)

When I first bought the 250's, I put them in a temporary room upstairs that was only 4m x 4m. They were placed in the corners and I assumed they would sound very boomy. The exact opposite occured, with tight bass and incredibly good imaging. During the 2 years they were in that room, I had several non-hifi people listen (one was a carpenter building some wardrobes...) and they were speechless at the groove and dynamics they were hearing. One colleague I work with has a really keen ear and compared the sound in that room to a good large format monitoring rig in a well treated studio.

Now the dynamics are largely gone. I had another good listen today at various levels and they are just sounding "slow" and the imaging is very vague. Not good :( Although I need to isolate them better from the floor to tighten the bottom end a bit.

The room will improve with some heavy curtains. I am going to fiddle with the attenuator settings, the 8" upper bass driver in particular.

I brought out one of the 120Ti's from storage and that has a similar character in this room to the 250's, only smaller scale. Although they did sound a bit tighter and faster.

I need to get the analysis gear out and find that strong mode, it is largely to blame for killing the mid-high dynamics I suspect.

Andyoz
05-03-2009, 05:04 PM
Another thing is the visuals. In a small room, the 250's are so big they become part of the room so to speak.You almost look through them.

In a large room, their incredible height makes them stick out. We have some wall lights just above each of the 250's and they cast an incredible shadow in the room, like a pait of upright coffins. I think long term, I think I need something about 200-250mm shorter to keep my wife happy.

I don't know anymore really. I may just bring down my little active LSR25P's and forget about all this hi-fi stuff. Those LSR's currently sit either side of my laptop workstation and have given me pleasure way beyond the £100 I paid for them on eBay.

Ian Mackenzie
05-04-2009, 03:56 AM
Sounds like they need pulling a metre or more out from the front wall and put some bass traps in the corners.

Back to the 4600 per my earlier comments you can see now why a loudspeaker engineered for less conspicuous placement and still sound good is way to go.

I mean what is the point if you can't use them properly. Some resort to lavish parametric equalisation but that is another story.

Andyoz
05-04-2009, 12:58 PM
Sounds like they need pulling a metre or more out from the front wall and put some bass traps in the corners.

Yes, neither of which is an option in this room :)

Based on all this, I would definitely look out for one of JBL's newer enclosures with LF roll-off. I am not going to search for that last octave.

Here's the finished room, even that massive fireplace doesn't really dwarf the 250's the way I had hoped (they look bigger in real than in this photo :o:)

39046

39045

jomina
05-04-2009, 05:46 PM
Good to have the photos. They give scale to the problem. And what an interesting problem it is you've given yourself there Andy :D
I've seen (have, actually) sealed boxes with a 12db roll-off positioned farther from the back wall than those 250s. If I were mystically inclined, I'd be seeing see an eq in your future...
It's a bit surprising to me that you're hitting a room node with the speakers positioned where they are. You'll be able to figure out what's happening far better than me of course. The nook between the fireplace and the wall must be a prime suspect for some of the issues. Looks a perfect fit for a large, well-stocked bookcase. No issues with that, surely?

Ian Mackenzie
05-04-2009, 05:55 PM
I would be inclined to actively Eq the bass response before you decided to dice the big boys.

Andyoz
05-05-2009, 02:14 AM
It's a bit surprising to me that you're hitting a room node with the speakers positioned where they are. You'll be able to figure out what's happening far better than me of course. The nook between the fireplace and the wall must be a prime suspect for some of the issues. Looks a perfect fit for a large, well-stocked bookcase. No issues with that, surely?

A rough calc shows the rooms "long" dimension should produce axial modes at 22Hz, 45Hz, 67Hz, etc. Looking at that sequence of modes, at my listening position I'm likely to be at a pressure a pressure maxima for the 67Hz mode. That could also "stack" up with another axial mode in the other dimension, but room modes are way more difficult to predict than that so I need to measure it. Will do impulse measurements at the listening position and post the results here. Just a bit rushed at the moment

pos
05-05-2009, 05:27 AM
Why not buy some small subs and follow Earl Geddes' approach:
http://mehlau.net/audio/multisub_geddes/
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=134568

Andyoz
05-05-2009, 06:11 AM
I would be inclined to actively Eq the bass response before you decided to dice the big boys.

I have a BSS digital eq's and some KT analogue but I want to keep the whole box count/complexity down.

With family and work committments, I just don't have time to fiddle with this stuff enough. :(

Ralph856
05-05-2009, 06:41 AM
With family and work committments, I just don't have time to fiddle with this stuff enough. :(

Hang on in there, Andy. Plenty of long summer days ahead :)

Andyoz
05-05-2009, 06:52 AM
Hang on in there, Andy. Plenty of long summer days ahead :)

I finally got time to sit and relax in the new room last night. Very enjoyable. I really like chilling out in large rooms - must be my Aussie heritage.

The 250's sound very good at lowish levels. They have that nice drive you can only get with a powerful system idling along. I really like that and maybe that's the way it will be used 90% of the time anyway. If you drive the room too hard, it all falls to pieces a bit though. There is a low-frequenmcy issue but also the large areas of glass are effecting the upper mid's I suspect. It will only get better though with more furnishings. :)

I am looking closely at TV's now though. What size LCD should I get if I am 4.8m away from it. Tempted to go with 46" but some say 52". I don't want the TV to take the room over although a big TV may make the wife think the 250's look small.

Also, the local golf club has just dumped their fees to get new members (credit crunch) so may join and then will be listening to the system even less...

Ralph856
05-05-2009, 07:22 AM
. I don't want the TV to take the room over although a big TV may make the wife think the 250's look small.


or get a bigger wife ;)

Andyoz
05-05-2009, 07:27 AM
Please resize that image or something....it's a shocker!

Ralph856
05-05-2009, 07:32 AM
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb184/DavidS_025/Fat-Women--4944-1-1.jpg

Resized!

jomina
05-05-2009, 05:03 PM
The 250's sound very good at lowish levels. They have that nice drive you can only get with a powerful system idling along. I really like that and maybe that's the way it will be used 90% of the time anyway. If you drive the room too hard, it all falls to pieces a bit though. There is a low-frequenmcy issue but also the large areas of glass are effecting the upper mid's I suspect. It will only get better though with more furnishings. :) Sounds good, and like you're adapting to the new room. Attach a stereo eq to the tape in/out on your amp so you can switch it in for those high SPL party moments. No need for anything fancy, and you can hide it away out of sight somewhere.


a big TV may make the wife think the 250's look small.That's the spirit. A newly discontinued 60" Pioneer Kuro plasma is just what you need. Have you thought about putting blinds or curtains on that window at the rear?

Ian Mackenzie
05-06-2009, 02:42 AM
I think 52 inch.

I use a 42 and its fine 3-4 metres back.

If your room is not explosed to direct sun light the Plasma (Panasonic Full HT) will work, otherwise look at a LCD, ie Sony

Based on the pics above if daylight viewing is a must you need an LCD screen

Andyoz
05-06-2009, 07:09 AM
Had a chance to do some impulse tests and some of the results were predictable, some were not. Here's the room photo again and have shown the following plots for the left hand side speaker to start with:

1. Left hand speaker 150mm out from the rear wall.
2. Left hand speaker 600mm out from the rear wall
3. Overlay of 1 and 2 (note: may have changed levels between the two samples so need to repeat that)

All measurements were taken at my listening position on the couch with terracotta throw over it.

I have marked the dominant room modes which seem to be as predicted for 7.7m long room at 43Hz, 66Hz, 89Hz...but there are some other modes in there that could be axial modes in other dimensions of more complicates modes.

Please discuss....:)

39077

39082

39083

39084

Andyoz
05-06-2009, 08:12 AM
Here are the results for the right hand speaker:

1. Right hand speaker at 150mm from the rear wall
2. Right hand speaker at 600mm from the rear wall
3. Overlay of 1 and 2.

Withnthe speaker 150mm from rear wall, there is a big dip around 105Hz. When the speaker is moved 600mm from rear wall, this dip moves to 55Hz. At first I assumed it was the cancellation iffect of the direct wave versus the rear wall reflected wave but the frequencies are not right....the dip should be at 1/4 wavelength but they are too low on the graphs? Also, the same thing doesn't ocurr with the LHS speaker so it must be something to do with the little corner/alcove formed by the fireplace.

39085

39086

39087

Mr. Widget
05-06-2009, 08:21 AM
Move your mic around... ;)


Widget

Andyoz
05-06-2009, 08:25 AM
Move your mic around... ;)


Widget

I plan to but want to keep at least one of the variables static. All measurement were taken at my listening position which is the couch with the terracotta throw on it.

What do you think about the savage dip at 105Hz and 55Hz on the RHS speaker. Note that the speaker is approx. 1300mm from the side wall with the greenish paint. That 1300mm distance was constant with the speaker at 150mm and 600mm from the rear wall. I am slightly stumped to be honest. Need a good day get more measurements.

Mr. Widget
05-06-2009, 09:13 AM
I don't know what the anechoic measurements should look like, but I'd guess that the major "issues" are due to mic height and placement and speaker placement... assuming the mic is very near the couch, I'd bet even moving the couch will change your plots. Taking a single static measurement in a "real" room will almost always yield similarly disappointing results.


Widget

Andyoz
05-06-2009, 09:24 AM
Taking a single static measurement in a "real" room will almost always yield similarly disappointing results.


Widget

So true and one of the reasons I delayed doing any analysis. But that dip for the RHS speaker is worse than usual. I am trying to find the same measurements done in my old 4m x 4m listening room - were much more linear from memory (hence the briliant sound I got in there :D

Robh3606
05-06-2009, 09:28 AM
What does it look like with 1/3 octave smoothing. You should average a couple of measurements. Can your software do it??

Rob:)

Andyoz
05-06-2009, 09:41 AM
Here is the plot with the worst "dip" in 1/3 octaves when RHS speaker is 600mm from rear wall.. Still looks savage and probably the reason my ear was telling me ther bass reponse in the room was crap. I can't correlate that dip with anything obvious, particularly when I compare plot with the speakers at 150mm from the rear wall. Maybe the dip at 55H zand then at 105Hz is a red herring and they are not related to one another...

The software can do averaging but are you talking about averaging of several different receive positions or several sweeps at the same receive position (I have done that already).

39093

Robh3606
05-06-2009, 10:08 AM
Well here's a stab at it. It's good low level but falls apart at high level. Get's boomy I asume?? Looks to me like you have a bass rise that is acting like loudness compensation at low level so it sounds balanced good there. With my system I am a bit lean at low levels it sounds balanced around where my average playback level is. What's the rest of the curve look like out to 20Khz??

Buy averaging I meant a couple of locations in you listening space/position like all 3 /seats/spots on the couch.

I could be completely wrong so it's just an idea. Too bad your not around the corner. Doing this stuff on the internet is so much harder than being there.

Rob:)

Andyoz
05-06-2009, 12:15 PM
What's the rest of the curve look like out to 20Khz??

39098

richluvsound
05-06-2009, 01:10 PM
Hi Andy,


Looks like your going to have to decide on a listening level and EQ to that .
From selfish point of view , I really hope you tackle this solely reliant on room treatment as opposed to Parametric solutions and all that digi stuff.

That fire place looks to be about ready for the mussel festival :applaud:
See you then , Rich

opimax
05-06-2009, 01:58 PM
Andy, just a thought

switch speakers make sure the plots remain the same, no left or right with the 250s.

then reinstall the 14-1 and sell me the 14-3s...oops thats my dreeam not reallity

Mark

richluvsound
05-06-2009, 02:12 PM
Optimax,


he'll sell to me !:D

Rich

Andyoz
05-06-2009, 02:37 PM
Andy, just a thought

then reinstall the 14-1 and sell me the 14-3s...oops thats my dreeam not reallity

Mark

You can have the whole bloody lot as far as I'm concerned....Then I'll just use my second hand £100 LSR25P's with a discrete sub....:)

The room was never designed as a listening room first, it was all about the "look". My mantra is still big speakers in small rooms = fun times / big speakers in big rooms = headaches...

Although I do have a plan to build a TV feature wall that will also be a tuned panel absorber...hmmm

Robh3606
05-06-2009, 03:53 PM
You have your microphone on a boom stand/mic stand?? Almost looks like a proximity effect it's over a rather wide range from 300Hz and down?? What happens with pink noise do you have an RTA function?? You ever set-up subs where you walk the room and find the smoothest spot and place it there?? There has to be places where you don't see that rise. What happens in you move forward or back say 3 ft either way?? If you work out the room spacing in the sofa on an even multiple like say 3/4 distance from the front wall??

Rob:hmm::blink:

Andyoz
05-06-2009, 04:11 PM
Rob,

The mic is pretty much in the free-field so no proximity effects.

I actually think what I am seeing is the "dip" between some savagely powerful room modes. The dip may actually be the spot where there is minimal room gain so is not really a dip as such. I am using sine sweeps to get the impulse response. If I slow the sweep down, you can hear each room mode kick in very strongly. I can extract the Reverb Times from those plots but I want to do those properly with a omni-directional speaker I have - will give much more accurate results.

Will do a full set of tests next week. Only had an hour last night to get it all started. :D Here's the test rig

39099

Mr. Widget
05-06-2009, 10:24 PM
I actually think what I am seeing is the "dip" between some savagely powerful room modes. The dip may actually be the spot where there is minimal room gain so is not really a dip as such.I had my system set up in the "living room" and found it quite disappointing, both by measurements and to my ears... I moved the speakers and the listening position 90° in the room and the magic came back. I did notice you appear to be wired to add a display between the speakers so that may not be an option. :banghead:


Widget

Robh3606
05-07-2009, 07:11 AM
I moved the speakers and the listening position 90° in the room and the magic came back.

I was wondering the same thing. My set-up in on the long wall of my room like Andyoz the shortwall just doesn't work in my room. Could be the opposite for him. That left side looks a little closet like but if they are pulled out into the room maybe it will work?? Maybe just getting them out into the room and more off the walls will work too.

Rob:)

Andyoz
05-07-2009, 03:19 PM
Speakers have to stay roughly where they are. It would make sense if you saw the room is 3D, it is L-shaped with everything centred around the fireplace of course.

One thing that does sound good in this room is classical. Great ambience and scale on the 250's.

mati1979
05-10-2011, 07:04 PM
Hi, i speak english not very weel, im sorry ! :(

i have saw, S4600 Harman Company Made in USA.
This model can i buy in USA ? or only in Jp ?