Finally powered up the 4350's today for the first time

[neanderthal]

Today the 4350's came to life after two long years and major dollars. MAN !!!! these things will blow your head off. Today was the first time I have heard an actual stock un-modified pair of 4350's.These get very LOUD with very little cone movement.

It was kinda funny and shouldn't admit it ,but when I put power to the rack I thought, MAN this thing is dead quiet no hum ,hiss , nothing!! ,then I remembered I still need to turn on the amps.There is a little hiss but no hum ect. I did wire a dedicated 20amp circuit just for the rack maybe that'll help some.

The only issue so far is there is no left side low output on the bryston 10B L-R. I replaced it with a M552 and both sides now work as they should.I looked thru the Bryston manual and didn't see anything I over looked or screwed up as far as settings,wiring ect.

Now Iam curious as to what Iam leaving on the table by using the M552 instead of the 10B L-R for now. The only thing Iam going to add is the Furman IT 20 ll or Equitech balanced power conditioner and a sequencer, probably a Furman PS-PRO series 2

[jbl_daddy]

Attach a picture...:)

[neanderthal]

Attach a picture...:)

I just broke everything down, believe it or not and covered everything up and put it out of the way.I got pics on here and for some reason it is very hard to take pics and have them come out decent down here

[neanderthal]

I was listening to the 4350's today and the more I listened to it the more pissed I was getting with the ever dreaded ground loop humming. Does anyone have a 100% dead quiet system?I finally had enough so I decided to play around with it and see if I could isolate it and try to eliminate it.

Low and behold (atleast for now) I have this running almost dead quiet. I don't know if it is possible to have it 100% free of buzz,hum,ect but I'll give it a shot. Atleast it is almost tolerable now..(yeah sometimes Iam too picky for my own good).If I don't get it 100% I'll probably go the power conditioner and see if that'll get it 100%.

[Krunchy]

I was listening to the 4350's today and the more I listened to it the more pissed I was getting with the ever dreaded ground loop humming. Does anyone have a 100% dead quiet system?I finally had enough so I decided to play around with it and see if I could isolate it and try to eliminate it.

Low and behold (atleast for now) I have this running almost dead quiet. I don't know if it is possible to have it 100% free of buzz,hum,ect but I'll give it a shot. Atleast it is almost tolerable now..(yeah sometimes Iam too picky for my own good).If I don't get it 100% I'll probably go the power conditioner and see if that'll get it 100%.

Hi Pete!
I'll let you know how I make out, I also set up a 20 amp dedicated circuit just for the stereo equipment & grounded it with (6)-8' long cooper bars. I say I'll let you know because unfortunately since the project was completed lst july I have not re-assembled the stereo system (one project led to another) :o:


I'll probably be back up and runing by june or there abouts & hopefully without surprises. Let us know how you fare with the power conditioner. I was thinkig about a furman as well, but I guess I'll cross that bridge when I get there. BTW, what is a sequencer & what does it do (merits/benefits?).

[neanderthal]

Hi Pete!
I'll let you know how I make out, I also dedicated a circuit just for the stereo equipment & grounded it with (6)-8' long cooper bars. I say I'll let you know because unfortunately since the project was completed lst july I have not re-assembled the stereo system (one project led to another) :o:
Hopefully I'll be back up and runing by june or there abouts. Let us know how you fare with the power conditioner.


Hey Krunchy your ground system looks good from what I see, and I hope it functions as good as it looks. I think what Iam going to do now after looking at your project is wait on the power conditioner til I see the outcome on what you have going on.
The remaining noise I have is very minimal but not dead quiet. I just want my system free of unwanted noise as possible and since I have about a 5th of what I bought the house for invested in this anything less to me is not acceptable.I'd rather go your route than the 1,500.00-2,000.00 for the power conditioner route.
I already have this running on a 20amp dedicated circuit so all I'd have to do is run one ground line outside and drive poles in the ground as you did.I might even save alot by going your route if it pans out than the power conditioner route.---Pete

[Krunchy]

Hey Krunchy your ground system looks good from what I see, and I hope it functions as good as it looks. I think what Iam going to do now after looking at your project is wait on the power conditioner til I see the outcome on what you have going on.
The remaining noise I have is very minimal but not dead quiet. I just want my system free of unwanted noise as possible and since I have about a 5th of what I bought the house for invested in this anything less to me is not acceptable.I'd rather go your route than the 1,500.00-2,000.00 for the power conditioner route.
I already have this running on a 20amp dedicated circuit so all I'd have to do is run one ground line outside and drive poles in the ground as you did.I might even save alot by going your route if it pans out than the power conditioner route.---Pete

I can totally understand that, it would piss me off too. The room where I have the dedicated circuit is a bit of a cluster F*%# at present moment. The 4345's I got from JohnW are biamp only so its a good amount of equipment to drag out of the cellar, but if I get a chance I'll try and hook it up & get back to you. Unfortunately I would have to break down the set up soon afterwards :banghead: :biting: (which is the reason I havent bothered to set it up to begin with ) as I got a good amount of furniture that will be filling up that room for a little while longer as another home project continues.

Where was the system hooked up prior to settling to its dedicated circuit, & did you have any hum then?

I'll be happy to give you more of the particulars once I've had a chance to fire them up. Macaroonie would be your guy if you had any real technical questions.

Price wise is was very reasonable, the hardest thing to find was the commoning bar that you see outside the house......Ah! wait, I cant believe I still have the link in a folder:bouncy:.....

http://store.electrical-insulators-and-copper-ground-bars.com/ground-bar-kits.html

The grounding bars and clips you can find at any good electrical supply house, & lots of good heavy cooper wire ;)

We'll talk further :)

Fred

[neanderthal]

as I got a good amount of furniture that will be filling up that room for a little while longer as another home project continues.

after I got divorced and she left (thank god) I never went out and bought any furniture so more room for audio. I wouldn't use furniture upstairs if I did buy any, I'd just look at it passing thru..lol



Where was the system hooked up prior to settling to its dedicated circuit, & did you have any hum then?

Everything has been hooked up to the same 20amp circuit from day one as it is now. My problem was the CD/DVD player was the cause of the hum (atleast for now) since it was hooked into the TV with the cable service,if that makes any sense.I'll go to radio shack and get something like this http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062214 .Right now I unhooked it from the TV and only have it connected to the preamp and it almost got rid of all the noise. Maybe I'll play around with the grounds in the rack and see if I can make it any better.


I'll be happy to give you more of the particulars once I've had a chance to fire them up. Macaroonie would be your guy if you had any real technical questions.

Yes without a doubt I'm interested in the outcome

I also installed the 4 fan top on the middle atlantic rack with automatic controller that will kick the fans on whenever the inside temp reaces 80 degrees. I have the SX1980 on top of that and when I manually kicked the fans on , the SX1980 was warm and the fans cooled it right down.

The fans make virtually no noise that I can hear when they are on. They are the 4 1/2"middle atlantic QFans and are very quiet.FWIW when I made the interconnects I used different colors purple,green,blue,orange to eliminate any confusion and screw ups as to what goes where.

[Fred Sanford]

Hi Pete!
BTW, what is a sequencer & what does it do (merits/benefits?).

He probably is referring to the fact that many power conditioners have banks of outlets that are delayed or sequenced in the startup or shutdown process. Some also have current sensing outlets that can be set to tell if a component is in standby or full operation. For example, you turn on your power conditioner (or a triggering source), and *blink* your processor and sources turn on, then *blink* your power amps turn on. Turn the conditioner off, immediately your power amp shuts down, then the sources, then the processor. Something like that. Of course, some modern components don't like having power removed from them, they can lose their settings or mappings, or they are DVRs that want to be on all the time...you have to think that stuff out.

Hope that helps...

je

[subwoof]

power conditioners have NOTHING to do with ground loops / etc and will not help the situation.

This subject has been discussed a number of times on this site and perhaps a good read through those threads is in order.

Sometimes it's a simple solution ( like isolators on ANY OUTSIDE CATV LINE ) or a careful lifting of redundant AC ground connections on some chassis-to-strip locations.

Sometimes it is necessary to *not* have a common steel rack rail for components and rewire others. every system is different and YES you CAN get it dead quiet and eliminate all but residual equipment noise.

sub

[neanderthal]

He probably is referring to the fact that many power conditioners have banks of outlets that are delayed or sequenced in the startup or shutdown process. Some also have current sensing outlets that can be set to tell if a component is in standby or full operation. For example, you turn on your power conditioner (or a triggering source), and *blink* your processor and sources turn on, then *blink* your power amps turn on. Turn the conditioner off, immediately your power amp shuts down, then the sources, then the processor. Something like that. Of course, some modern components don't like having power removed from them, they can lose their settings or mappings, or they are DVRs that want to be on all the time...you have to think that stuff out.

Hope that helps...

je



The Furman IT20ll balanced power conditioner doesn't sequence but that's a balanced power conditioner.There are alot of claimed power conditioners but I'm not sold that they condition the power at all (balanced power conditioners are a different animal).

I did just install a Furman PS-PRO which is a 20amp sequencer. The PS PRO is suppose to be a power conditioner but personally I think it is only a glorified sequencer.Furman told me I'd have to plug the sequencer into the IT20ll balanced power conditioner to have balanced sequenced power.

The PS-PRO has three double plug in's that are sequenced with adjustable sequence time up to 30 seconds per sequence and one outlet that is not sequenced always on. It sequences on 1 2 3 then off 3 2 1. I got it because I didn't want to screw up and shut down wrong(I would of eventually) and have to hear the loud thump people talk about. I just turn the key and it does everything.

[boputnam]

The only issue so far is there is no left side low output on the bryston 10B L-R. Yeah, but we fixed that! :applaud:


Does anyone have a 100% dead quiet system?Yup, a couple of them. Studio, Family Room, and of course the ones that go out on the road. But it takes work.


My problem was the CD/DVD player was the cause of the hum (atleast for now) since it was hooked into the TV with the cable service, if that makes any sense.Yes, it certainly does. Cable TV can be horribly dirty - poorly grounded. Grab your multi-meter and check for voltage between signal and shield - last time I did mine, it was about 9v. Not good - too many dirty, dirty neighbors... :scold:


I'll go to radio shack and get something like this http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062214 . Those work great until you decide to upgrade your components. I had a persistent GL for years in the Family Room system and was pretty thick with those GL isolators back then.


Right now I unhooked it from the TV and only have it connected to the preamp and it almost got rid of all the noise. I suspect it is the preamp that is the problem - not entirely sure, but it's a possibility. I struggled for years, as I say, and one day decided to upgrade the preamp - everything else the same. Presto-chango, GL gone. What is your preamp?

[SEAWOLF97]

I suspect it is the preamp that is the problem - not entirely sure, but it's a possibility.

I would second that guess, before blaming grounding.

My system is hum free and when I started assembling it, wanted to get ground problems out of the way...tester showed "open ground" ..house built in '59 ...they did not use same grounding as now ...not sure how they did it then, but no problems...were no 3 prong outlets in most of the house. have been considering pounding a stake and grounding to the outlet that the stereo uses..but then..why fix a problem that doesnt exist ? wHAT DID they do for grounding back then ?

[hosee]

Neanderthal, I saw that you sent a message previously and tried to answer but it was some time after your message.

I bought my original 4350's at a Home and Garden show here at the Salt Palace in (approx) 1973-4 for $1500.00. They were in the gray cabinets with black grill. I had buyers remorse and sold them to a friend who had also bought a pair when I did (giving him 4 speakers which he still has). I later received a call from a salesman at Broadway music for me to come look at a pair, which I did. I thought they looked real good (oak finish with blue grill) so I bought them (about 1974) for $2500.00. As I remember, the Oak veneer cost was about $300.00 additional. I still have them and still original (except for moving one 077 to the other side of the speaker to increase separation). I have had the woofers reconed by Performance audio. Sounds like I am being a little wordy.

I use a Dod 835 crossover and a center channel with a 2202, 375 and 077 and a 3107 crossover.

I use an Alesis Matica 900 to drive the 15" speakers and Alesis Matica 900 also to drive the 2202, 2440 and 077. An Alesis RA 500 drives the center speaker.

Some might say that my listening area is not ideal and probably overkill but we enjoy it. Hope you have many long hours enjoying your new speakers.

[neanderthal]

I didn't get to play around with the ground loop today except when I unplugged the preamp there was absolutely no change at all.Very unproductive day as far as trying to isolate what is causing the ground loop.




Yeah, but we fixed that! :applaud:

Yup, a couple of them. Studio, Family Room, and of course the ones that go out on the road. But it takes work.

Yes, it certainly does. Cable TV can be horribly dirty - poorly grounded. Grab your multi-meter and check for voltage between signal and shield - last time I did mine, it was about 9v. Not good - too many dirty, dirty neighbors... :scold:

Those work great until you decide to upgrade your components. I had a persistent GL for years in the Family Room system and was pretty thick with those GL isolators back then.

I suspect it is the preamp that is the problem - not entirely sure, but it's a possibility. I struggled for years, as I say, and one day decided to upgrade the preamp - everything else the same. Presto-chango, GL gone. What is your preamp?

[neanderthal]

Neanderthal, I saw that you sent a message previously and tried to answer but it was some time after your message.

I bought my original 4350's at a Home and Garden show here at the Salt Palace in (approx) 1973-4 for $1500.00. They were in the gray cabinets with black grill. I had buyers remorse and sold them to a friend who had also bought a pair when I did (giving him 4 speakers which he still has). I later received a call from a salesman at Broadway music for me to come look at a pair, which I did. I thought they looked real good (oak finish with blue grill) so I bought them (about 1974) for $2500.00. As I remember, the Oak veneer cost was about $300.00 additional. I still have them and still original (except for moving one 077 to the other side of the speaker to increase separation). I have had the woofers reconed by Performance audio. Sounds like I am being a little wordy.

I use a Dod 835 crossover and a center channel with a 2202, 375 and 077 and a 3107 crossover.

I use an Alesis Matica 900 to drive the 15" speakers and Alesis Matica 900 also to drive the 2202, 2440 and 077. An Alesis RA 500 drives the center speaker.

Some might say that my listening area is not ideal and probably overkill but we enjoy it. Hope you have many long hours enjoying your new speakers.

Hey if your system works for you and you are happy ,overkill or not then that's what counts. That would be great to have two pair of 4350's crankin. I'd have to have hearing aids within the first week of listening to 'em.
That first pair of 4350's you bought for $1500.00 in 1974 sounds cheap by today's standards.If you believe inflation calculators it compares like this roughly:

What cost $1500.00 in 1974 would cost $6478.94 in 2008.
What cost $2500.00 in 1974 would cost $10798.23 in 2008.

[Audiobeer]

Help me out with your fan aquisition. I'm looking for some dead quiet therm controlled fans for my eclosed rack. Where did you get yours?

and Krunchy......is your tape measure still on the window sill?




I also installed the 4 fan top on the middle atlantic rack with automatic controller that will kick the fans on whenever the inside temp reaces 80 degrees. I have the SX1980 on top of that and when I manually kicked the fans on , the SX1980 was warm and the fans cooled it right down.

The fans make virtually no noise that I can hear when they are on. They are the 4 1/2"middle atlantic QFans and are very quiet.FWIW when I made the interconnects I used different colors purple,green,blue,orange to eliminate any confusion and screw ups as to what goes where.

[boputnam]

I didn't get to play around with the ground loop today except when I unplugged the preamp there was absolutely no change at all.That is a very important datapoint.

You disconnected the preamp from the signal path and the GL was still present? If so, your GL is downstream from there.

Remind me about your interconnects?

- preamp to crossover: balanced or no?
- Bryston crossover to amps: balanced or no?
- What are the amps?

[Fred Sanford]

Originally Posted by neanderthal http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=248329#post248329)
I didn't get to play around with the ground loop today except when I unplugged the preamp there was absolutely no change at all.



That is a very important datapoint.

You disconnected the preamp from the signal path and the GL was still present? If so, your GL is downstream from there.

Remind me about your interconnects?

- preamp to crossover: balanced or no?
- Bryston crossover to amps: balanced or no?
- What are the amps?

Important data point #2: did he "unplug" the preamp from the wall/power, or "unplug" it from the signal path?

Oooh, dontcha just love to troubleshoot in a forum environment? :banghead:

je

[boputnam]

Important data point #2: did he "unplug" the preamp from the wall/power, or "unplug" it from the signal path? Ah, good one!


Oooh, dontcha just love to troubleshoot in a forum environment? :banghead::rotfl:

[neanderthal]

Help me out with your fan aquisition. I'm looking for some dead quiet therm controlled fans for my eclosed rack. Where did you get yours?

and Krunchy......is your tape measure still on the window sill?


Hi A. Beer...,I got my fans and controller on ebay. They are Middle Atlantic 4 1/2" QFans.Middle Atlantic wants 50 some dollars each and I got two pairs, and I have alittle over 100.00 invested in all 4. I also got the Middle Atlantic FC-4-1C thermostatic fan controller to automatically kick the fans on whenever the inside temp reaches 80 degrees.Middle Atlantic wants around $150.00 for it, I bought mine off of ebay and have right at $100.00 in it.

I can change the temp settings from 80 to 85 or 90 degrees if I remember correctly. I then bought the Middle Atlantic MW-4FT top to mount the fans. Markertek was having a sale on the tops and I bought it for 26 dollars and some change usually they are 49.00. I got around $225.00 or so in my setup.

I set the SX1980 on top and when I manually kick the fans on I can feel air blowing thru the SX1980 and come out the top of it. The SX1980 runs only warm and the fans totally cools it down.The inside of the rack has never reached high enough temp to activate the fans with the fan controller set on automatic for self activation.The one pic is what my setup looks like with everything mounted and the other pic is of the fan controller

[John]

Hi Pete!
I'll let you know how I make out, I also set up a 20 amp dedicated circuit just for the stereo equipment & grounded it with (6)-8' long cooper bars. I say I'll let you know because unfortunately since the project was completed lst july I have not re-assembled the stereo system (one project led to another) :o:


I'll probably be back up and runing by june or there abouts & hopefully without surprises. Let us know how you fare with the power conditioner. I was thinkig about a furman as well, but I guess I'll cross that bridge when I get there. BTW, what is a sequencer & what does it do (merits/benefits?).

Why would you have to ground the outlet box when the main panel is grounded? At least I hope it is! I would think a single ground done right would be what you would want?

[John]

I was listening to the 4350's today and the more I listened to it the more pissed I was getting with the ever dreaded ground loop humming. Does anyone have a 100% dead quiet system?I finally had enough so I decided to play around with it and see if I could isolate it and try to eliminate it.

Low and behold (atleast for now) I have this running almost dead quiet. I don't know if it is possible to have it 100% free of buzz,hum,ect but I'll give it a shot. Atleast it is almost tolerable now..(yeah sometimes Iam too picky for my own good).If I don't get it 100% I'll probably go the power conditioner and see if that'll get it 100%.


What about the power amps, Are they up to spec ???

[neanderthal]

What about the power amps, Are they up to spec ???

For the highs I have a Pass Labs X150 and it is good to go, no issues
For the lows Iam using a Crown K2 also good to go no issues.
I also have a Yamaha PC4002M I can use for the lows which is also good to go and without any issues.

I'll play around with trying to eliminate the remaining noise and then will get a balanced power conditioner if that's what it will take to lower the noise farther. I can only hear a little hum but have to be right up to the speaker to hear it. It's a process and I'll stay at it. It'll be next weekend til I get another chance to tinker with it any more.

[neanderthal]

That is a very important datapoint.

You disconnected the preamp from the signal path and the GL was still present? If so, your GL is downstream from there.

Remind me about your interconnects?


- preamp to crossover: balanced or no?
Preamp to White 4400's right side out on preamp to one 4400 left side out on preamp to other 4400. I unplugged the signal path(cable) from preamp to White 4400's and noise still present no change. So I eliminated the preamp as cause of ground loop


- Bryston crossover to amps: balanced or no?
XLR balanced the shield is "NOT" connected on all inputs pin#1


- What are the amps?
Pass Labs X150 and Crown K2
I think Iam going to eliminate the white 4400's this weekend and bypass them to narrow it down. Widget made the comment it took some doing to make his 4400's quiet so I'll bypass them and see if there is any noise or if it makes the noise better or worse.

[Krunchy]

He probably is referring to the fact that many power conditioners have banks of outlets that are delayed or sequenced in the startup or shutdown process.
Hope that helps...je
Thanks je, it sure did ;)


and Krunchy......is your tape measure still on the window sill?
:rotfl: :applaud: YOu know that was bound to happen! it was MIA for a little while there, with some minor cursing involved.


Why would you have to ground the outlet box when the main panel is grounded? At least I hope it is! I would think a single ground done right would be what you would want?

Overkill!? :D not really, just an added precaution, minimal cash outlay, walls were open, seemed like a good idea. Yes the main box is grounded, & the outlet box is grounded as indicated in pictures.
Google techincal grounding & you'll get lots of reading material. Recording studios employ this method. Ground loops do occurr apparently, this was one way of hopefully keeping them out of my path. People here dedicate lots of time & sometimes lots of money to their listening enjoyment, & like I said, it was mininmal cash outlay.

The fact that I was in the middle of renovating that particular space gave me the opportunity to subscribe to this method. If I had no GL issues I doubt I would have gone through the trouble of opening walls & running a dedicated line for this express purpose.

Addressing your last sentence, I think its probably a little more complicated than that (& I am not a technical person so bear with me) otherwise we probably would not even be discussing it.
For me at least it made sense to have the one dedicated outle with its own idividual grounding system.
The ground wire of this dedicated line is grounded at the circuit box, but it is not grounded at the outlet end of the run, there the dedicated ground is attached as per pictures and is grounded thus.
Any more technical perspective is out of my league. :D
FWIW, one may also use 3' copper rods, I merely opted for the 8'ers.

;)

[boputnam]

I think Iam going to eliminate the white 4400's this weekend and bypass them to narrow it down. Widget made the comment it took some doing to make his 4400's quiet so I'll bypass them and see if there is any noise or if it makes the noise better or worse.Are the White's balanced, or not?

[macaroonie]

Why would you have to ground the outlet box when the main panel is grounded? At least I hope it is! I would think a single ground done right would be what you would want?

Krunchy has a technical ground dedicated to his audio gear. Hence the spikes in the yard etc. If he did what he was told he will have lifted the domestic ground ie no connection to the outlet.

He will have a series of e mail from me that hhe can forward to you on this subject.

Take your system down to its most basic form ie disconnect all outboard gear like AV stuff etc. Your power amps should run quiet with no input connection ,switch off and hook in your x/o but with no input connections. what happens now ? Hum - if yes you have a multi ground within THAT setup and you probably need to lift the ground on one of the power amps ( it will ground also through the signal leads )

Keep on going that way until the culprit shows up. Happy hunting :D

[macaroonie]

Just so that this is clear to y'all ------ the GREEN wire is house ground - it is terminated (isolated within the box and not connected to the outlet )
The dedicated ground ( fat copper cable bonded to the metal box ) is now the new ground. Personally I would have a short wire to connect from the box to the outlet plate , Krunchy may well have done this later.

This way the grounding is ' clean ' but also the incoming cable is protected and the trips or fuses will work correctly.

Oh by the way those little 20mm punch outs work perfectly in our parking meters.

[Krunchy]

Oh by the way those little 20mm punch outs work perfectly in our parking meters.

I'll send you some :D

[neanderthal]

Are the White's balanced, or not?

Yes the manual say's the inputs are electronically balanced. I attached the manual if you want to take the time to dig thru it. On page 7 mine are hooked up like in figure 1. It makes no difference if the shield wire is hooked up or not. I do have the 4390 input transformer.The outputs are connected as in figure 3 on page 8 again with no effect on shield wire connected or not. I do not have an output transformer

I was going to eliminate (bypass) the equalizers and go straight to the 10B from the preamp to possibly narrow it down a little farther.

[neanderthal]

Krunchy has a technical ground dedicated to his audio gear. Hence the spikes in the yard etc. If he did what he was told he will have lifted the domestic ground ie no connection to the outlet.

He will have a series of e mail from me that hhe can forward to you on this subject.

Take your system down to its most basic form ie disconnect all outboard gear like AV stuff etc. Your power amps should run quiet with no input connection ,switch off and hook in your x/o but with no input connections. what happens now ? Hum - if yes you have a multi ground within THAT setup and you probably need to lift the ground on one of the power amps ( it will ground also through the signal leads )

Keep on going that way until the culprit shows up. Happy hunting :D

I'll also try this this weekend when I have enough time to dedicate to this without interuptions...Thanks macaroonie

[Krunchy]

Pete, I'll try to hook things up saturday, probably late afternoon/early eve, will post results. ;)

[neanderthal]

Pete, I'll try to hook things up saturday, probably late afternoon/early eve, will post results. ;)


Hey Krunchy you don't have to on my account whenever you get to it is fine with me

[Krunchy]

Not a problem, I've been itching for an excuse to fire them up anyway.

[Krunchy]

Hi Pete!,
had a chance to hook the system up & play a couple of songs, everything sounded fine & dead quiet (when nothing was playing).
With Macaroonie's help I implemented this system as a precaution plus it just made sense under the circumstances at that point in time (ie: the construction :blah::blah:). I did not have any GL issues prior to the implementation of the technical grounding as I mentioned previously, & with the minor monetary investment it was a no brainer... even for me :D

Personally I dont think it would hurt to apply this grounding system for your situation seeing as how you already have a dedicated circuit in place, which frankly is the hardest part of the equation. Adding the dedicated grounding rods etc. would be pretty simple. That being said there might be more to your particular situation & circumstances then the actual grounding per se as has been alluded to in other posts. Like I said all this technical stuff in not my forte but I would think it is something other than the grounding since you did not have these problems before:dont-know .

Did you have a chance to do further investigating into the possible culprit.
Keep us updated & let us know how you make out & good luck. ;)

fred

[neanderthal]

Hi Pete!,
had a chance to hook the system up & play a couple of songs, everything sounded fine & dead quiet (when nothing was playing).
With Macaroonie's help I implemented this system as a precaution plus it just made sense under the circumstances at that point in time (ie: the construction :blah::blah:). I did not have any GL issues prior to the implementation of the technical grounding as I mentioned previously, & with the minor monetary investment it was a no brainer... even for me :D

Personally I dont think it would hurt to apply this grounding system for your situation seeing as how you already have a dedicated circuit in place, which frankly is the hardest part of the equation. Adding the dedicated grounding rods etc. would be pretty simple. That being said there might be more to your particular situation & circumstances then the actual grounding per se as has been alluded to in other posts. Like I said all this technical stuff in not my forte but I would think it is something other than the grounding since you did not have these problems before:dont-know .

Did you have a chance to do further investigating into the possible culprit.
Keep us updated & let us know how you make out & good luck. ;)

fred

Hi Krunchy I didn't get a chance today to try to isolate where the ground loop is coming from, I was over at Fort Leavenworth all day but I'll be all over it tomorrow. The results on your system is great news and I hope I can have the same before too long.

I do have a balanced power conditioner located and spoke for. All Iam waiting on is for the guy to get an extremely heavy duty package job done and it'll be on the way.I told this guy that I'd rather wait a week or two til he has it boxed up good enough to take a possible 3ft drop (typical UPS,FEDEX) than to hurry and have a jerky pack job,damage and fight to get them to pay off on ins claim.

I'll start with macaroonie's suggestion ,with the amps and if quiet then plug the crossover in and keep working backwards til the problem appears. Something tells me it is going to be the bryston 10b. I'll post the results tomorrow without fail on what I found out.---Pete

[Ken Pachkowsky]

This made my system dead quiet.... and for a 4-way system with 6 amplifiers that is a major accomplishment.

All balanced outputs should have pin 1 active at the source and removed at the amplifier. Just for clarity...

I had pin 1 connected at the Deqx Balanced Output (XLR) but snipped or disconnected at the Boulder Amplifier Input (XLR).

Many here will confirm it took me months to eliminate the problem. Only when I was told this technique (called telescoping inputs) was I successful in completely solving the problem...no cheater plugs or anything and my system was black between tracks. It was a tech on Gearslutz that taught me this.:applaud::applaud:

Ken

[neanderthal]

This made my system dead quiet.... and for a 4-way system with 6 amplifiers that is a major accomplishment.

All balanced outputs should have pin 1 active at the source and removed at the amplifier. Just for clarity...

I had pin 1 connected at the Deqx Balanced Output (XLR) but snipped or disconnected at the Boulder Amplifier Input (XLR).

Many here will confirm it took me months to eliminate the problem. Only when I was told this technique (called telescoping inputs) was I successful in completely solving the problem...no cheater plugs or anything and my system was black between tracks. It was a tech on Gearslutz that taught me this.:applaud::applaud:

Ken

Thanks Ken for the input when I jump into this tomorrow I'll also give this a shot and see if it resolves the noise issue--Pete

[neanderthal]

The first attempt today I unhooked everything except cables from the amps to the 4350's. FWIW the shield on all interconnects are unhooked on all inputs and connected on all outputs The Lows from Crown K2 to 2235's dead quiet both sides.

The high's from Pass Labs X150 to highs on 4350's quiet on left side and small amount of ground loop (Hum) on right side. When I said small amount of ground loop(hum) I have to be right up on the speaker (head real close) to hear it,still not right other side is dead quiet.

I went ahead and connected the bryston 10b and ground loop(hum) on right side was a little more pronounced and also noticable on left side now.I can now hear the ground loop(hum) standing 3ft away.I did try to connect the shield on both the inputs and the outputs at the same time,soldered it to the other tab in the XLR connector that looks like it will ground each connector to the chassis on both the 10B and the X150. No shield combination I tried effected it in any way.

I think til I get this delt with there isn't any sense connecting the White 4400's in the mix. I just don't understand why with just the cables connected to the 4350's to the amps and nothing else connected it had ground loop only on the right side from the X150 to the highs on the 4350's. I'm going to stop with this today and try to get another game plan.For now Iam out of ideas what to try next.

[macaroonie]

OK swap the power amps for now Pass to LF etc and try again. Yes I know its a PITA then connect the 10B annd then swap the bass o/p cables left -right see what happens. if the hummmmmmmmm moves then you have a cable issue if not you have a 10B issue

[Ken Pachkowsky]

Ok

Make sure everything is plugged in on the same circuit....its critical.

Be aware....as nice as the 4400's are they are prone to GL problems.....I have never had a silent pair yet.....at least 5 pairs.

Ken

[boputnam]

FWIW the shield on all interconnects are unhooked on all inputs and connected on all outputs That is the way - with Pin1 disconnected at the inputs, not only does it break the chance of a GL, the interconnects also cannot deliver RF to the device.


The high's from Pass Labs X150 to highs on 4350's quiet on left side and small amount of ground loop (Hum) on right side. Can you swap the PassLabs outputs, just for fun, and see if the GL follows the crossed outputs (shows up on L).

This I find MOST interesting:

The Lows from Crown K2 to 2235's dead quiet both sides. GL are centered at 60Hz - you should hear this in the 2235's if it is indeed a "real" GL. I am beginning to suspect there is a Pass Labs problem.


I went ahead and connected the bryston 10b and ground loop(hum) on right side was a little more pronounced and also noticable on left side now.IMO, this is merely an increase in the gain stage - it doesn't seem that the Bryston added anything except some gain.


No shield combination I tried effected it in any way.Your Pin1 drops are fine. Do not try and reconnect Pin1.


I just don't understand why with just the cables connected to the 4350's to the amps and nothing else connected it had ground loop only on the right side from the X150 to the highs on the 4350's. As I said, try swapping channels on the PassLabs and see if it follows the swap.


OK swap the power amps for now Pass to LF etc and try again. Yes, I'd also do this, but after we determine if there is something amis with one side of the PassLabs X150.

[neanderthal]

That is the way - with Pin1 disconnected at the inputs, not only does it break the chance of a GL, the interconnects also cannot deliver RF to the device.

Can you swap the PassLabs outputs, just for fun, and see if the GL follows the crossed outputs (shows up on L).

This I find MOST interesting:
GL are centered at 60Hz - you should hear this in the 2235's if it is indeed a "real" GL. I am beginning to suspect there is a Pass Labs problem.

IMO, this is merely an increase in the gain stage - it doesn't seem that the Bryston added anything except some gain.

Your Pin1 drops are fine. Do not try and reconnect Pin1.

As I said, try swapping channels on the PassLabs and see if it follows the swap.

Yes, I'd also do this, but after we determine if there is something amis with one side of the PassLabs X150.


Thanks Bo...I'll jump on this tomorrow (tues.) night when I get home at more of a decent hour. Iam beat and am going to bed, Iam so tired I ache---Pete

[neanderthal]

I finally got a chance today to spend time on the ground loop after a relentless week. I got such a good deal on a balanced power conditioner I bought it and it is in the rack. I was curious as to what effect it was going to have, and I can't lose anything for the brother inlaw price I paid for it.

Before when I only had the amps and cables plugged in I had a small amount of hum out of one side of the Pass Labs X150 all of that is gone and it is dead quiet.

With the amps, bryston10B plugged in it is dead quiet. So I threw the White 4400's into the mix. One of the 4400's is dead quiet and the other one if you touch the middle of the RCA connector it induces a 5 second hum and then is quiet. Only one of the 4400's does this. Possible input transformer issue on one 4400?? It had this issue before I installed the Balanced power conditioner.

I swapped input cables to the 4400's and it did not help it. I swapped cables running to the 10b from the 4400's and the hum changed channels. I think I might have an issue with one of the 4400's.It doesn't matter what kind of grounding scheme I try it doesn't cure or effect it in any way.Other than that this system is as quiet as if the rack was unplugged from the wall.

[boputnam]

With the amps, bryston10B plugged in it is dead quiet. So I threw the White 4400's into the mix. One of the 4400's is dead quiet and the other one if you touch the middle of the RCA connector it induces a 5 second hum and then is quiet. Only one of the 4400's does this. Possible input transformer issue on one 4400?? It had this issue before I installed the Balanced power conditioner.

Pete, me thinks you need to lose the White's and get something more contemporary and balanced. Not so hard, and you'll finally be able to rest! :)

Me? :snore:

[neanderthal]

Pete, me thinks you need to lose the White's and get something more contemporary and balanced. Not so hard, and you'll finally be able to rest! :)

Me? :snore:

Yeah I was already thinking that. As a matter of fact I already redone the cables and went straight to the crossover from the pre amp, bypassing the equalizers all together.

I don't know if it was the balanced power conditioner or bypassing the equalizers but the sound really sounded tighter and just alot more powerful and seems more controlled altogether.The bass sounded thin and lacking before, now the bass it tight and sounds real powerful (for lack of a better explaination).

I knew something had to be wrong , before the way the 4350's sounded. So by either eliminating the 4400's or running everything through the balanced power conditioner really woke the sound up. Iam not one to play a small gain to something huge as some do like with different cables,interconnects ect, but there is a major difference as to what it sounded like before and now.

Back to the equalizers what is your suggestion as to what equalizers to try next.Iam not going to be as concerned in cost as much as Iam quality (within reason). I just don't think that I need to be spending 3-4 thousand on equalizers but quality and sound is the priority here.

I also wanted to mention that I now run the TV through the balanced power conditioner and the ground loop it caused before is also gone for what that's worth.

[Mr. Widget]

Back to the equalizers what is your suggestion as to what equalizers to try next.Iam not going to be as concerned in cost as much as Iam quality (within reason). I just don't think that I need to be spending 3-4 thousand on equalizers but quality and sound is the priority here.Meyer Sound CP10.

http://www.meyersound.com/products/processor_drive_systems/cp-10/


Widget

[neanderthal]

Meyer Sound CP10.

http://www.meyersound.com/products/processor_drive_systems/cp-10/


Widget

Thanks Widget That's what I needed to know

[boputnam]

Meyer Sound CP10.+1

The Widget knows...

A very compelling alternative is the Klark Teknik DN370 (http://www.klarkteknik.com/dn370.php). One helluva unit. I have a pile of both these units.

If you get a good price on someone eBay'ing a CP10, the choice will be easy. The DN370 can be very costly (I was stunned by a recent quote on eBay) and is wonderful sounding. Shop around. Check with Full Compass - ask for George Koury.

btw, used DN360's are rumored to benefit from "maintenance" to get the filters back to spec. I only pass along what I hear from those that owned them. :eek:

If both these are beyond your price point, I'd next consider the BSS FCS 966 (http://www.bssaudio.com/equalizers.php) or Ashly GQX3102 (http://www.ashly.com/gqxseriesgraphic.html) - both these offerings are constant Q (and fairly broad) but are good sounding. I'd avoid anything Rane, and the dbx 1231 (http://www.dbxpro.com/1231/1231.php), is just what it is - an ordinary offering that works pretty well. I'd pick it over Rane.

[grumpy]

Might save a little if you find a CP-10S (no knobs), but it's not really a liability,
as you get your speaker/room measured/adjusted in, the settings will
settle in and pretty much stay put. I have one of each and the knobs are
just helpful to have a gross visual idea of the setting and can speed things
up (a little). Actually nice to -not- have the knobs once set... can dispense
with the security panel. Live/event adjusting? different beast (need knobs :) )

If you don't have a measurement system, which I'd strongly recommend
you do get, I'd skip the parametric. It's possible to work a 1/3 octave EQ
with warble tones and other tools, but attempting to perform compensation
using a parametric EQ without a measurement system will end in frustration.

[boputnam]

Might save a little if you find a CP-10S (no knobs), but it's not really a liability, as you get your speaker/room measured/adjusted in, the settings will settle in and pretty much stay put. I have one of each and the knobs are just helpful to have a gross visual idea of the setting and can speed things up (a little). Actually nice to -not- have the knobs once set... can dispense with the security panel. Live/event adjusting? different beast (need knobs :) )

If you don't have a measurement system, which I'd strongly recommend
you do get, I'd skip the parametric. It's possible to work a 1/3 octave EQ
with warble tones and other tools, but attempting to perform compensation using a parametric EQ without a measurement system will end in frustration.+1. All of it... :)