SR project. I could use some suggestions

[macaroonie]

Hi all. I could use some input WRT my efforts to help our local combo of skint musicians. I have been gently collecting some good E-bay drivers and have amassed the following.

4 x 2226hpl with fresh recones
4 x Celestion 1500hz exp horns 1" throats
2 x 075 bullets
2 x Tannoy magnet assemblies( in effect a 2" driver )

Budget is now becoming an issue in these uncertain times however I would like some suggestions as to the way to go. My inclination is towards a pair of satellites and either a small pair of subs or one large(r) sub. Flexibility is the key here and also portability. No 10 cu ft boxes !!!

I have tried messing in Win to see what can be expected from the 2226 as a sub but did not manage to get much useful extension. They seem to resolutely knock off at 40 Hz.
Is the way to go perhaps to use the sub pair up to 120Hz or thereabouts and use a simple 6 dB x/o to feed the sats. The obvious benefit her is that the sats can be used on their own in smaller situations OR ..................
Would it be a better plan to aim for 4 compact boxes.

I know I am light on compression drivers at the moment , and would willingly trade the Tannoy units for something more useful for this application. They are unused straight from the factory and would be of serious interest to someone dabbling in the Horn loaded world. ( spare dia also ! )

The throats I could not resist , they were on an Amazon deal at £5 a whip

Most of you will be aware that the cabinet work is not an issue for me but at this stage the project is more about strategic planning .

The SR 4725 is catching my eye as a foundation for the sats.

Any input from folks who have been down this road would be greatfully appreciated..

Mac

[Andyoz]

Not sure about the drivers but I like the carpet Mac :D

[macaroonie]

Andy are the Tannoy units any use to you ? Known for sweet top end , but you already know this. I need something more sturdy with a 1" exit , you have anything lying about ?

[Andyoz]

Nah,

I've got too much JBL lying around already....

[Loren42]

The 2226 speakers have a Fs of 40 Hz, which is way too high for a sub. However, you might try experimenting with using one or two of the 2226s as an extended low frequency subs, each in an assisted sealed cabinet of 3 cubic feet or so each.

This LINK (http://sound.westhost.com/project48.htm) describes just such an approach with a 15" driver and a simple electronic circuit to drive the equalization you need. Yes, you need some wattage to drive the sub cabinet, but the response should be outstanding!

The only bug I can see is that the design he used has a driver with an Fs of 20 Hz. However, I did some modeling with a driver with a higher Fs (34 Hz) in BassBox Pro and it looked do-able to me with no special tricks.

I would set the crossover between 50 and 60 Hz and use the remaining two 2226s as mid woofers, which also could be in sealed cabinets to keep the size down. This would meet your requirements for keeping cabinet volume down (no 10 cubic feet) and utilize at least 3 of the four 2226s effectively. One sub may be enough, but you could always make two since the cabinet size is very small and parallel wire the subs to a high power amp.

If you have more amps at your disposal, consider bi-amping or tri-amping to get the most out of the remaining drivers. You can buy electronic crossovers that have phase delay so you can electronically dial in the system for a killer response.

[macaroonie]

Thanks for that input and yes I can see where that would work given plenty of watts , trouble is a big time shortage of said watts.:(
I do have a leaning towards the idea of keeping the sats little and that is not a problem with this driver it seems. Possibly the way forward is to go with a compact pair of 3 way in a vented box that will work OK on their own in a small venue. For situations that require more thump have two Bass only boxes tuned as low as venting will usefully allow.
If I have a switchable inboard x/o in the bass units giving a restricted hi pass then in effect the ' subs ' are behaving as helpers ? In that way the bass cabs could find alternate use as bass instrument cabs or whatever.
Watts will still be needed whichever way this goes !!
Today I have spent some brain cell time and concluded that it is probably not a good idea to go with the little 1" horns with cheapo drivers. They can wait and go into el crappo monitor wedges with el crappo 10 - 12" bass mids

[Loren42]

Do you have a room corner that you could put two of the 15s in a corner cabinet? In other words, face the cabinet into a corner with the woofers mounted backwards into the cabinet with their magnets mounted outside the corner horn box.

A friend built such a cabinet that was tall (about 177 cm tall), 75 cm wide and about 30 cm deep. The cabinet really rocks.

[macaroonie]

Sorry but I suspect that you have the wrong end of the stick. This is all for SR or PA use for a local 5 piece group in pub venues.
I have these at home. Not so different really :)

[Loren42]

Ah, nice... Okay, then forget everything I said. :D

[boputnam]

Budget is now becoming an issue in these uncertain times however I would like some suggestions as to the way to go. My inclination is towards a pair of satellites and either a small pair of subs or one large(r) sub. Flexibility is the key here and also portability. No 10 cu ft boxes !!!Mac...

Tell us how big are the clubs you play, and what is easiest for you to manage?

If I understand your jargon, my inclination would be to go with a pair of "satellites" and a pair of subs. You can use pole-mounts in the subs to hold the "satellites"; and, in instances where one sub is plenty, put the other on a tri-pod.

So, if I'm headed down the right path, holding the right end of the stick :) I'd suggest you go for subs that are taller than they are wider / deeper to keep the pole mount about 1m or so (extendable).

My small club system uses my EV subs cabinets this way - 2242HPL's. I've got a pic, I think...

Yeah - here you go:

The mains aren't relevant - those are coaxial L-Acoustics 115XT - but they needed to be above the crowd, thus my DIY yoke brackets.

[SMKSoundPro]

Dear Mac,

I put together a small sub/sat rig for the all girl rock and roll band that they could carry in their Subaru wagons. It was a pair of SR4722 and a pair of 4718 bottom single 2241g. It was powered by a pair of crown power base 2 amps. It wasnt' too bad.

I also thought about the 4725, and in fact, have a single mock-up sitting here. I did it in birch ply, and haven't glued it up yet. I have all of the parts for a pair. You could use your 2226, get a pair of 2425/ 2370 horn driver combo, and be on your way. What have you got for a pair of double 15 bottom cabs?

Scotty.

[SMKSoundPro]

Here are a couple pics.

Scotty.

[macaroonie]

Bo your pic is nearest to the likely scenario. Cramped would be appropriate in most cases. Allways remember that it is not that easy to find the right JBL drivers here especially compression types , most of which seem to have been through the wars.
Scotty , thanks , you got it right also , back of wagons is the deal for now.
At the moment I am stuck with these Tannoy cores , and whle they make a lovely sound they are wasted in this application. ( They really belong on one of those nice turned SO throats or on a Smith )
For the moment I am at a bit of an impasse as far as HF but I will sort that in time.
Anyone have any thoughts re the x/o from the 'subs' to the ' sats '. Again I know that prob the best way to do this is active but again also shoestring budget comes in to play.
Would a 6dB filter do the trick Ie LP and HP centred around 120Hz ?
I love the indian dude Scotty !!! Way to go :)

[Andyoz]

Mac, tell them to look on UK eBay as I'm amazed at how cheap PA gear sells.:)

[boputnam]

Here are a couple pics.
+1 for the sombreros. Never considered that... :rotfl:

[Earl K]

Hi Mac,

Woofers ?

- I'm in agreement with those who suggest that you reserve the 2226H fifteens for bass duties only ( ie; don't run them up to meet the horns ) .
- Run some box SIMS and make sure you keep the box/woofer alignment to no smaller a figure than .5 ( which is a critically damped alignment ) .
- Tuned in the range of 45 to 55 hz ( with this alignment ) you'll be able to hammer those woofers forever without hurting them .
- Make sure to put a highpass filter on them ( even if it's with a graphic EQ ) at 40 hz and you are good to go .


Horns ?
- Buy some JBL 1" ( entrance ) waveguides instead of what you have ( at @ $ 10.00 USD how can you lose ? / PM Zilch for a US source ) .
- I'd strongly suggest using the celestion horns for monitor duties only ( they are extremely beamy ) .

Compression Drivers ?

(i)

http://www.parts-express.com/images/item_standard/294-410_s.jpg (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=294-410)
- I'm guessing you can't get 2426H(s) over there ( or afford them ).
- Too bad, because in my opinion they are still the best all round general purpose ( small format ) driver available.
- They do come from a different era when an 800 hz crossover point was still valued .
- While they aren't optimized for performance in that last upper octave ( 10K to 20K ) they do out perform all others below 1.6K ( which no-one seems to care about these days ) .
- Anyways, if you can live with a higher crossover point ( which all the modern small drivers demand ) , you'll have many more choices available to you .

(ii) This "econowave" favourite ( at $40. ea / qty of 4 )
http://www.parts-express.com/images/item_standard/264-270_s.jpg (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=264-270) seems to be the best bargain ( worldwide ) that I can find .
- The added bonus is that Zilch has worked out the compensation filtering when it's used on the JBL waveguide. ( Details available over at AK ).
- It's quite interesting to me that no-one ( or very few ) complains about their titanium diaphragm ( I've listened to an earlier 205 model and it was indeed smooth ).

(iii) - Readily available closer to (your ) home ;
the Celestion CDX1-1746http://professional.celestion.com/pro/products/cdx/speakers/cdx1_1746.jpg (http://professional.celestion.com/pro/products/cdx/detail.asp?ID=5) is worth a try ( at current UK eBay prices ) .
- Its' plastic film diaphragm might not "cut it" for live work / though this sort of diaphragm is just about always smoother sounding when simply listening back to "track" . Be aware ( & FWIW ) , I figure that this is an asian produced product ( just like those exponential horns you have ).


MidRange Cone Drivers ?

- I'd suggest a 10" midbass driver with a relatively lightweight cone driven by a strong motor ( that describes the 2123H to a tee ) .
- I use 2123(s) and 2012H(s) below 1" drivers ( 2426s) . This is a killer combo that has unparalleled dynamics & transients . These qualities are quite necessary when needing to compete with ( & to cut through ) the "clatter" of live-stage sound.
-( BTW , my cabinets are quite tiny / ie; perfect for the satellite box concept ). I use them over 18" woofers ( that also have pole sockets mounted in them ) . I continually get unsolicited favourable comments from people who use these cabinets ( even DJs :p ) .
- I don't have a substitute 10" in mind ( though there are plenty out there ).
- A formula to help you on your search is to find a ten incher with a dynamic index factor of approx "6" . These ( arbitrary ) index numbers will run from 1 to 8 ( approx ) .
- The formula I use is ; DIF = ( Bl / Re / Mms / Sd ) .
( Sd must be stated in square inches / while the rest of those figures are typically available on the individual product-sheets, in the TS section ) .

>< cheers

[macaroonie]

Thanks Earl , are you sure you didn't miss something ? :D That is a very complete treatise and I will digest it fully after I have some grub.
FWIW 2426 almost never show up 2425 occasionly but are usually beaten to death. Large format are more frequent 2240/1 and 2445. Worked hard also but are built to take it better. More $$$ though.

[macaroonie]

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[Earl K]

Hi Mac,

- Here's a pic of the reason why I caution against using those horns that you have.
- Since I own a pair / I ran some impromptu tests on one with a 2426 driver .
- The lower traces have a 5 db Lpad in place ( 9R conjugate & 4R series resistor ) . Providing the HF compensation , is a 6.8 uF cap bypassing the 4R series resistor .

Red is "raw" horn&driver response ( at 1 meter ) .

Blue ( aqua ) is on axis with a 5db pad & HF compensation in place (1 M ) .

Yellow ( ? ) is 20 degree off-axis with a 5db pad & HF compensation in place (1 M ) .

Purple ( fucia ? ) is 30 degree off-axis with a 5db pad & HF compensation in place (1 M ) .

FWIW , I figure one could use these horns as a 40 by 40 degree if EQed appropriately .

>< cheers

[macaroonie]

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/jbl-2482-2-Midrange-compression-driver-120w-working_W0QQitemZ320355677441QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK _ConElec_SpeakersPASystems_RL?hash=item32035567744 1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1688%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C 240%3A1318 :(

Sadly by the time we buy anything from the US , even SH or from the bay there is the cost of shipping + import duty ( TAX ) and VAT (TAX ) added to the total of the former. VAT currently runs at 15%.

As an example an HF driver that left the US from an E bay sale at say 150US would end up at about £220 and you saw the price above for the 2426 almost $500. It does make life a trifle difficult.

[Earl K]

Sadly by the time we buy anything from the US , even SH or from the bay there is the cost of shipping + import duty ( TAX ) and VAT (TAX ) added to the total of the former. VAT currently runs at 15%.

As an example an HF driver that left the US from an E bay sale at say 150US would end up at about £220 and you saw the price above for the 2426 almost $500. It does make life a trifle difficult.

- Here in Ontario/Canada, our version of VAT ( or combined GST & PST ) is 13%. These two taxes ( different jurisdictions ) are soon to be combined into a single HST ( H = Harmonized ) .
- We pay shipping ( of course ) but we don't pay import duty on US made goods .
- We also pay the shippers a fee to broker the goods ( clear Cdn customs ) even when no duty is payable.
- Canada Post ( via USPS ) has the most reasonable brokerage fees .

- Can I correctly assume you don't pay duties on goods manufactured in the EU ? If so, I would concentrate on buying components made in the EU ( even if they have to be imported from the US :p ) .

>< cheers

[boputnam]

Just my view here :wave: , but if you can reach for larger diameter compression drivers, all the better.

I quit DIY stuff about 2003, realizing I'll never approach the excellence of most of you here, and instead focussed on execution/deploying excellent designs of OEM's.

Experience has taught me that larger diaphragm CD's are smoother and more pleasing to the ear. I have no plots, I have no measurements. I only have subjective impressions constructed from real-life applications of having to make who-knows-what speaker system perform and "behave". Without exception, better and more pleasing results are more readily achieved with larger diaphragms.

So, if you can, strive toward larger diaphragms whenever possible. 'nuf said.

[macaroonie]

Have no fear the celestion throats are consigned to the lowliest of duties !!
I have a question , you mention ' Run some box SIMS and make sure you keep the box/woofer alignment to no smaller a figure than .5 ( which is a critically damped alignment ) . ' How is this figure derived ? Whenever I have used WIN ISD I ensure that the vent mach is in the green scale and as low as poss within the physical options vis a vis vent size etc.

Just a few words so you know why I am going down this path.
A Fun
B the wee band are very talented but dirt poor
C I am dirt poor but have the wherewithall to scrounge up some decent gear for not a lot of $$$ but there are limits.
So in a way I am sponsoring the band by providing gear that will allow them to gig and move up scale a bit. They know that they can buy any of it at a fair price at any time but other than that the gear remains mine.
There are quite a few local community events that can also benefit from this as in the christmas panto etc. It is my way of contributing in a small way to the community in which I live.
There is a farther reason related to the cabinet construction that may be unique and marketable , so in a way this is also a prototyping exercise.

MacAl

[Earl K]

Hi Mac


Run some box SIMS and make sure you keep the box/woofer alignment to no smaller a figure than .5 ( which is a critically damped alignment ) .
How is this figure derived ? Whenever I have used WIN ISD I ensure that the vent mach is in the green scale and as low as poss within the physical options vis a vis vent size etc.

- Here's what the MacSpeakerz alignment looks like .
- I don't have WIN ISD, as a result I'm not familiar with its' vernacular / but " vent mach" isn't it .
- 4 cu feet = @ 113.27 liters ( according to my calculator )

>< cheers

- ps ; I agree completely with Bo, in that larger diaphragmed drivers are best for live work. Since your scrounging about for bargains , consider buying a pair of these .

[macaroonie]

I am a daily bay checker also these are only 25 miles away , just newly on. Lets see what we can do !! These wee boxes could end up HEAVEEE. :D

[boputnam]

...I am dirt poor but have the wherewithall to scrounge up some decent gear for not a lot of $$$ but there are limits. So in a way I am sponsoring the band by providing gear that will allow them to gig and move up scale a bit. Mac, that was my path.

Back in 1974 I put a lien on my car at the bank for US$1,200 and invested all of it in mics, and cables, and amps and stands. That was 35-yrs ago. I finished college (2x), paid off the car, the band is still together, and I still "sponsor" them and always will (hell - they let me sing... :p ). I now work legitimately for a couple other bands of more notable stature. The point is, once you get into this, if you let it, it will stay with you and you will get good at it. You are lucky to have this site (and others) as resources. Have fun... :)

[Zilch]

The entire EconoWave HF package is less than $200/pair here in the US, drivers, waveguides, crossover. The acoustic crossover is ~1.6 kHz. Will 2226H play up there? Well enough for SR, I should think. The waveguide is the JRX "horn," and we've found it available in Australia, even. 338800-001. There's an equivalent Pyle version, as well. Talk to Guido; I'm betting they're available in Europe. Selenium is made in Brazil, but "home" may be Portugal. Quadruple the resistors (series/parallel) in the HF comp circuit for SR use per Wayne Parham, Pi Speakers. You want better HF drivers, B&C DE250-8 + throat adapters, Italy, with Kapton diaphragms, $151 apiece here. We've worked that out, also; it's just a slight variation in the highpass cap and inductor.

I don't get why we're hung up on subs here. SR bass is 40 Hz. What plays below there that requires reinforcement? Do you mic the kick drum in small venues? Keyboard? If you must, and don't have the power to drive them EQ'd (there are plans online for 2226H subs with active EQ,) then just run the second pair as "helpers" to extend the LF of the mains. They'll be crossed in way low, and you'll hardly hear them playing, but they will be augmenting and extending the very bottom end. Think Everest II. I don't know how much SPL you can get from them down there within their excursion limits, but it may well be enough. Is the Danley sub design useful here? Where is that, ProSound Web?

[cooky1257]

Mac, FWIW those Tannoy horn assys look like alnico, they are also the 'gold'(not monitor gold) finish from the current Prestige line-they could be worth quite a bit why not eBay them as parts?.
On the issue of import duties and VAT I've had mixed experience with HM Customs-'replacement parts' attracting a much lower rate than 'new'.

[Earl K]

Hi

- Here is a supporting argument for Bo(s)' observation ( though the argument may already be moot by this time ) .

- These are the official Sd values ( in square inches ) of 3 different sized drivers ( according to "The Handbook for Sound Engineers" ) ;

TAD 2001 = 3.1
Altec 288 = 6.3
JBL 2441 = 12.5

JBL 2426 = ?? ( I'll assume it's about the same as the TAD )

- This means that a single 4" diaphragm ends up being equal to four 1.75" types ( in pure surface area ) .

- In live sound reinforcement ( as in many things ) "size matters" ( for getting & holding ones attention ) .

- In very simplistic terms: using one 2441 per side ( of a band ) means; that those two should be able to successfully compete ( for your aural attention ) against @ 7 ( 1.75" ) diaphragmed drivers in stage monitors.

- The upshot here ? Don't give a band more firepower in stage-monitoring than what the mains' P.A. has / unless one enjoys hearing the question "Why does it suck ?" over & over .

- Of course, most bands have the largest say in answering that question ( with or without any reinforcement in place ;) ) .
- Still, that's why ( IMHO ) it's best to assign smaller drivers such as 2426(s) to stage-monitoring duties .

>< cheers

[Earl K]

I don't get why we're hung up on subs here. SR bass is 40 Hz. What plays below there that requires reinforcement? Do you mic the kick drum in small venues? Keyboard? If you must, and don't have the power to drive them EQ'd (there are plans online for 2226H subs with active EQ,) then just run the second pair as "helpers" to extend the LF of the mains. They'll be crossed in way low, and you'll hardly hear them playing, but they will be augmenting and extending the very bottom end. Think Everest II. I don't know how much SPL you can get from them down there within their excursion limits, but it may well be enough. Is the Danley sub design useful here? Where is that, ProSound Web?

- ( As you posit ) 2226H woofs can be very successfully used in 2-way boxes / without subs being present .
- And I know this why ? Because I have such a box ( using 2226H & 2431H drivers on PT-F64 waveguides / in 2.7 cu' enclosures ) . They're used in quantities of 2 a side when live talent is involved .
- In the hands of the right sound engineer, this combo can achieve stunning results .

- The caveats are ;
#1_( without more woofers present ) one needs to limit the musical content that they're asked to handle .
#2_midrange wise, they just aren't as "quick" as a 12" or 10" cone ( of equal D.I.F. ) . Hence my earlier advice .


>< cheers

[macaroonie]

We seem to have followed some very similar pathways. Back in 74 I was doing exactly what I am up to now.
I was partner in what at the time was a pretty substantial mobile disco. Bit by bit we had amassed a pretty substantial array of kit , mostly WEM. Charlie Watkins was cool enough to supply us gear at trade terms and then latterly empty cabs which we loaded with Altec 421 8H drivers . I think we had about 24 cabs of one sort or another. We got a lot of University bookings and such and it took a 7 ton truck to shift all of it. At the same time we had an interest in some school chum's band. We had enough gear to boost them along and for a few extra mics we were up to speed.
Then the big realisation dawned that we were lugging such a load of boxes around , Mac can you build some bass bins ? Yep . so it was cloned Altec 1215 to use the 421 and some scoops for the 418's. We got some 511 / 808 and an early electronic x/o.and we were in business. So it was bye bye WEM and hello gray paint bins . It was a huge improvement and much less lugging.
Amongst all this activity we also promoted a free concert once a year in one of the many parks in Glasgow. It was fun to do this because we spent all year going around the pub venues in town and EVEN some in Edinburgh. If a band was any good we would go see them again and then perhaps offer them a slot on the day. Usually we had about 12 acts ending at 9 ish pm.
We did this for about five years until the local radio station muscled in on the act and claimed all the credit. Well that was enough and we just said on you go boys lets see how you want to do it. They ran a total shambles for about 3 years and then ruined it completely by bringing money into it.
Radio Clyde 261. Hence the Zappa pic. In fact the event resumed and ran on for another 20 years or so untill the bandstand became 'Dangerous'
So here are some pics for your amusement, :o:

[macaroonie]

Thanks all for your input it is most helpful. As it happens a very generous offer came my way from a well known forum member and so a pair of 2426 will be with me soon . MANY thanks to him and I hope I do get to keep my end of the bargain , It will be my pleasure. :)
At the same time there are some 2441's locally that I will try to find the $$ to buy. It will be a push because I just got stung on a job , client delighted just does not want to pay. It is the blunt end of this crunch business and for a one man operation I am almost powerless to do anything about it.

So ,provisionally I am firmly in the smallish mains camp 2226 / driver horn / 075 ? size about 500w 750h 400d this is about 145 litres or 5 cu ft.
I think for simplicity sake I will make the helper bass cabs the same size.
Now all I got to do is figure out a decent way of making it all run together.
In time some power amps will be purchased , although I have access to one Crown something ?? not sure what model.

The Tannoy units are up on Audio Asylum classifieds so I hope they can find a home where they will be used to advantage.

More soon and thanks again for the comments.

[Earl K]

Mac, FWIW those Tannoy horn assys look like alnico, they are also the 'gold'(not monitor gold) finish from the current Prestige line-they could be worth quite a bit why not eBay them as parts?.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=38359&stc=1&d=1238594338

- That "pepper-pot" phase plug gives it away as their older style and "yes", the magnetic pot appears to be alnico .
- Essentially as I see it, some lucky buyer will get the equivalent of a Tannoy ( silver/red/gold/HPD ) HF assembly .


The Tannoy units are up on Audio Asylum classifieds so I hope they can find a home where they will be used to advantage.

- I really hope that you get a good price for them .


>< cheers

[boputnam]

Back off topic... ;)


...the event ... ran on for another 20 years or so untill the bandstand became 'Dangerous'Hell, it looked pretty dangerous LIVE!!

Great shots and history - thanks. I wish we'd taken more shots of the systems we piled together - knowing how little I know now, it truly was a miracle anything worked for us back then!

[macaroonie]

My friend Dougie has these stashed away as prints so here are some more for your amusement.
The beach shots were inspired by the Pink Floyd sleeve for the album Umagumma as I recall. Not very pretensious. Note the Afghan jacket :barf: Note the beer cans on top of the left stack at the bandstand.

[4313B]

- In very simplistic terms: using one 2441 per side ( of a band ) means; that those two should be able to successfully compete ( for your aural attention ) against @ 7 ( 1.75" ) diaphragmed drivers in stage monitors. Yeah but 2441's are getting scarce and we need them for Studio Monitors. Stop 'wasting' them in SR applications! :D Use the newer, lighter JBL's for the SR stuff please. :) I think a guy in L.A. sells them for something like $20 or $30 on eBay these days. :rotfl:

[boputnam]

Note the beer cans on top of the left stack at the bandstand.Hell, that's not inventive - what's inventive is the side-fills you have!! That's inventive! Before monitor wedges - nice.

I have a picture somewhere of our first attempt at monitors. I'll try and remember posting it when I return from this short gig trip. We used my Altec Corona's as wedges driven by a Pioneer SX-9100. Worked, kinda, well, not so much - (we had no monitor EQ, so GBF was damned limited) - but we sure tried hard.

[Earl K]

Yeah but 2441's are getting scarce and we need them for Studio Monitors. Stop 'wasting' them in SR applications! :D Use the newer, lighter JBL's for the SR stuff please

Most, if not all of us SR types would rather use a pair of 243x drivers on waveguides rather than 2441s on whatever horn .
- Much more versatile & ( at 6 lbs for a pair of 243x ) much lighter to move about .


>< :)

[Earl K]

Mac, what was in the innards of the stock WEM stuff ?

- Whatever it was, I remember just how good Pink Floyd made them sound when I saw the band at a "Soft-Seat" theatre in Regina ( way around 70-71 I suppose ) .
- Whenever it was, I was no doubt quite impressionable at the time . :p

:)

[macaroonie]

This will tell you almost nothing http://www.vintagehofner.co.uk/britamps/watkins.html but the cabs were actually very well put together, Birch ply and tons of screws all 18mm.
As I remember the stock drivers were Goodmans Axiom.
Basically crap but in those days a 1000 watt pa was a BIG deal. The 4 x 12 columns had whizzer cones and were sort of HF ish. I think these oics were taken when all of the 3ft x 2ft x 1ft cabs were loaded with Altec. We had 2 ' bins' by WEM ( 2x15 ) that were surpassed entirely by the Altec boxes and so were retired to Bass guitar use. They made a pretty good stack with a 100 watt head.
Met Charlie Watkins a couple of times and a nicer gent you could not meet , apart from your good self :)

[mikebake]

We did this for about five years until the local radio station muscled in on the act and claimed all the credit. Well that was enough and we just said on you go boys lets see how you want to do it. They ran a total shambles for about 3 years and then ruined it completely by bringing money into it.
Radio Clyde 261. Hence the Zappa pic. In fact the event resumed and ran on for another 20 years or so untill the bandstand became 'Dangerous'
So here are some pics for your amusement, :o:
Who/why did it get run down?? Why shouldn't this place be in good shape today? It wouldn't be that expensive. What happened?

[Earl K]

Mac,

I was under the impression that Altec never had much of a market presence in the UK back then / am I wrong ?

How was it that you guys came to have boxes full of it ?


><

[macaroonie]

Axiom drivers--- these look familiar. JBL had almost no presence at all at that time ( 75 ish ) but for some reason Altec did. Also JBL were mega expensive as in twice the price . There was a company called Theatre Projects that imported Altec. The name gives you a clue as to their core activity. We were able to get trade terms from them so that also was a help. As it happened they mucked us around over a deal for a dozen !5" drivers and did not have what they suggested that they did , quoting six weeks delivery. I phoned Anaheim and they told me they could have the drivers on the plane in two days with bankers TELEX confirmation . Oh also at a great discount I might add !!

[macaroonie]

Who/why did it get run down?? Why shouldn't this place be in good shape today? It wouldn't be that expensive. What happened?


Mike you you would have to have an understanding of the abject incompetence of the administration of the city of Glasgow. For twenty years or so they have been boiling the thorny issue of the bandstand --do a google ' Kelvingrove bandstand ' and have a read. It is so sad that that city that once was so great is now run by incompetent fools and time serving drones. :banghead:

[mikebake]

It should be relatively easy to resurrect this place. Why do people vote for the fools?

[boputnam]

Why do people vote for the fools?:blink:

[hjames]

It should be relatively easy to resurrect this place. Why do people vote for the fools?

Ummm - 'cause they are marketed better?

[macaroonie]

Sadly for the City of Glasgow the Labour Party has been in charge for the last six decades. The rot set in at least forty years ago. Nepotism , brown envelopes , i'll scratch your back etc are all rife but the dopey people still vote for the red rosette. There are very close similarities between Glasgow and Pittsburgh as far as history , but as we all know Pitt went through a spectacular regeneration.
Small factoid. At the height of the shipbuilding era there were some 35000 ocean going vessels afloat that had been built on the River Clyde. All gone now.

[Andyoz]

There was a company called Theatre Projects that imported Altec. The name gives you a clue as to their core activity.

Mac, if it's this Theatre Projects then they are still around (we have worked with them)

http://www.tpcworld.com/index.asp

Talking to the UK theatre consultants, they'll tell you it's either d&b or Meyer in the high-end installs. The London west end is full of the stuff I believe.

I'm loving the old photos by the way, keep them coming. Actually, I was feeling nostalgic myself yesterday and went searching YouTube for cool music clips....nothing to do with the thread but I still find this a bit of pop magic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNMhPQoEbJE

[macaroonie]

The school chums band did move on and up and went throuigh some changes and eventually became Cado Belle. They caught the eye of Kokomo and went on to make as I recall two albums. This pic is of them supporting Kokomo at ???? venue

[subwoof]

well, not painted yet...

Anyways here is a spare set of 3 ways that I built for a local SR company a few years ago.

These cabs use the 2226, 2123 or 2012 and the 2332/2452 but the JBL SR horn 2373 / 2426 fits too.

In keeping the size manageable (and to take some LF energy out of the horn) the 10 makes a real big difference. Almost any decent 10 can work since the bandwidth is limited ( 300 to 1200 ).

20 wide, 16 deep and about 40 high. I forgot to measure...:)

sub

[macaroonie]

bump :)

[macaroonie]

Back to the original topic I now have the following drivers to hand

4 x 2226
2 x 2427J
2 x 075
2 x 2373 throats

Two of the bass drivers will be in separate cabinets to be used as helpers where needed . I would like the mains to use the bullets if possible but there are some problems with this mixture of components.
The 2373 throat is used at 1.5 kHz in previous systems so that puts the bass driver at its upper limit although it will probably be ok Where I am stuck is finding a archive network that I can model from. Nearest is probably SRX 4725but then the comp is a J and hence shows a DCR of 6.3 ohms. And then what mods are needed to integrate the 075's
Any of you network genius's been down this path before or know of a resource / link that will get me started.
I have trawled the archives and frankly am out of my depth trying to make any sense of it all.
Thanks in advance for any help , it is all very much appreciated. :applaud:

Note , I have more than just JBL woofers in my house :D

[macaroonie]

From further investigation of the archives I came across this network. Whilst not exactly on the money would it be a reasonable starting point. I notice that the dual 2206 have no filter at all , but in a general sense the two of those would roughly equate to a single 2226. The x/o points are 1.2k and 6k which pretty much fits. With some adjustment for sensitivity and change the mid high pass to 1.5k I should be there. I am assuming that the 075 can reasonably be substituted for the 2404.
Am I even on the right track here ? :blink:

[Earl K]

Hi,


Am I even on the right track here ? :blink:

- ummm, no, I don't really think so .

- You don't have a single component ( or horn ) that's comparable to those components ( in the product you're showing ) .

- You need the help of someone with all these different things( like subwoof or the Alaskan connection ) .

>< cheers :)

[subwoof]

As mentioned, the bullet is *not* needed with that driver in SR apps so look in the other direction and get a pair of 10's. Then the horn size issue is moot.

The 2426 will go high enough to sterilize a teenage bat.

the cone/10/1" application is covered in the old 4699B and the crossover is simple to make. The MR925 is a newer model with 15's and less expensive cones.

Both would require network tweaks and / or eq to make work or just get a stereo 3 way active and dial it in.

sub

[macaroonie]

Good name for a band , or a movie.

Couple of points , I fully understand the point re the 10" drivers however size is very much an issue and I need to keep in the 750 x 450 x 400 zone or less hence not much room to squeeze in a 10"

Point taken Sub about the 075's , I had them provisionally in the mix to pick up some of the fall off in the horn and also to take up some of the load at HF ,
Plus they look neat :D and have major cut through properties.

Anyways for my sins I have been trying to make some sense of JBL in house networks for the 2226 / 2426 combo , specifically those in the 4725 iterations.
And also the Sound Power 4731 which has the J version 2426 but at 900Hz . All have the 2226.

Problem I have is there seems to be a fair variation in the way each of these networks are arranged , plus I am not getting the correct x/o frequency when I insert these values into typical network formulae. As you would expect I am attempting to find the correct values for a higher frequency ie. 1.5kHz to suit the 2373 horn.

As an example look at the value of L1 in each of the 4725 variants.

I have a feeling that the Sound Power 4731a circuit offers the most hope in that it is geared for the two drivers concerned and ALL that needs fixing is the turnover frequency. Stock horn is 2370 and I am using 2373. both are bi-radial.

I need a doctor and some help here please :blink:

[Earl K]

Mac,

- My advice? put this build project on hold till you obtain a pair of high-powered 12"s ( or 10" ) to play above the 15s.
- Typically, these sort of ( SR ) 12s will do their stuff quite well when working in a 1.3 to 1.5 cu' cabinet.
- This size of box is pretty small & will fit your mobility requirements ( think Meyers UPA-1 ).

- Save the 15s for bass/sub-bass duty and load them into individual 3-4 cu' cabinets.

- The road you're now travelling has been travelled by a few of us here / & I'll state up-front that the pay-off just won't be what you hope it will be ( especially with the use of passive crossovers ) . :(

>< cheers :)

[macaroonie]

I hear what you are saying Earl ( and Sub ). However I have what I have to hand and therefore have to make the best of it for now. My aim is to land up with a small full range system that will stand up on its own in small venues and a pair of extra bass cabs as you described to add some oooomph where circumstances require it.
As it happens I have a 2206 core from a while back when I had thoughts exactly along the lines of your suggestion , sadly like buses and policemen these are either everywhere or nowhere. ( ditto for 2226 Bay was awash with them a while back. )
I had a rummage on the web amongst other manufacturers offerings and there are some pretty hot 6" and 8" SR mids to be had with the right sensitivity so that may yet be the way to go. So in the meantime I have to plough on , remember that building cabs of this nature is a breeze for me so down the line some alternatives may develop.
FWIW I intend to have removeable baffles on these hence any changes will only involve messing with baffles. The cabs to start will all be the same size ie approx 120 litres, so if things mature i can swap out the horn and make those cabs the same as the other bass cabs and build new tops , poss as you suggest with 2206 or similar.
Another option I have is to borrow my M553 from my home system and go active ( reluctant to do this although the plug up is easy )

Further progress member Jerv in Norway ( our neighbours bless them ) had posted a treatment of the 4725 system network but for the J version 2426 He has very kindly done the numbers for me for a 1.5KHz crossover frequency.
I will post this separately with a search engine friendly title .

So I have not started yet but I now know where I am headed , tomorrow I will order x/o components and I have plywood and glue and stuff ...... watch this space

Thanks so far Sub Earl Jerv :D

[macaroonie]

X/O components are yet to arrive but as promised here are the alternative values for a 1500Hz application with 2226 and 2426J on a 2373 horn.
Many thanks to Jerv in Norway. The changes are shown in RED otherwise they stay as per the list on the original diagrams.

[macaroonie]

Well I have moved on a little , got the networks built on some scabby bits of ply , I dont think the X/O police are coming my way soon.
I have the carcases of four boxes made. Nothing special in this at all , these are much more utilitarian than the Backyard project. Rebate joints with gun brads and polyurethane adhesive. Thats great stuff coz it fill all the little holes.
The cabs will be dressed up with flight case alloy sections so in fact the joints can be fairly sloppy cosmetically plus the alloy and rivets offer some reinforcement.

Dimensions are 700 x 450 x 375 I guess I could have squeezed them a little tighter yet but as you can see there is not a lot left to play with.

Earl , just for you I am on the lookout for some 12 inchers :)

[macaroonie]

Here is one of the nearly finished cabinets rigged up for proving. I have been testing it in my stereo set up as the left channel. This is of course a bit of a pain because ( as my avid readers will know :) ) my 300ish system is fully active and the only way I can easily retrieve a full range signal is to remove the woof and bypass the active X/O to feed the woof amp.
Well I have to say I am more than pleased with the results , the transition is smooth and seamless and while the 2226 does not have the LOW LOW thing of the 2235 it does exhibit some noticeable punch which is very satisfying.
The top end is super clean with little harshness and all in all I have to say that for a SR box it holds its own VERY well against the 3way HI FI speaker.
The only small niggle audibly would be a slight muddy sound which I would put down to the 2226 running a bit higher than is ideal. I would not expect this to be a problem in its intended use. On the plus there is a pleasing liveliness and snap to the overall presentation.
For checking purposes I downloaded a nice slow sweep from NCH and ran this through the cab to check for rattles and such and am pleased to say we have a clean bill of health in that respect.

Good job Jerv for the number crunching on the networks :applaud:

The boxes are still a bit untidy but once the metalwork shows up we will be good to go. I am really looking forward to playing these live. !!

If anyone is interested I tuned these at 50 Hz which leads me on to what to do with the Bass helpers. They will be same size boxes but I wish to run them as low as is practical , so therefore tune at 35 - 40 seems right but where do I roll them off. 120 or higher ? Does anyone have any experience of this ?
All input is welcome as always.

[macaroonie]

Hi all. Well its been a while since I added to this thread. After a terrible start to the year work wise things picked up big style from July , hence not much progress was made. Then disaster , my favourite woofer was hit by a car and sufferred a broken back leg. He has needed a lot of care and attention to get him back to rights.
Anyway the cabs are all but ready to go on the road , I did build four of the small cabs but sold one for MI use with an Eminence 15 in it ( customers own ) so now my spare 2226's are in the big cab that I built some while ago.
They will all have lids as shown but I am still tossing around ideas for grilles.
The band has gone through some changes also and the deadwood is gone and they now have two new members who are very talented. There is a new enthusiasm around them now and I hear that the drummer has blossomed in the new musical environment. I have yet to hear them in the new format and will soon as they are now ready for gigs.
I scored the wee mixer amp as a B stock item for £205 which is pretty good given that it is 2x200 / 8 and 200 mono for monitor. In the short term I will use the monitor amp to run the 2x 2226 box with the eq pulled right down other than bass frequencies.
I also scored a nice pair of Beyer M201tg microphones.Testing in the house it sounds as clean as a whistle , not peaky at all and hence not prone to feedback.
Gots to solder up some cables and we are good to go.
When we do a live gig I will fire up a u tube link for all interested , should be fun.
See ya soon

[Eaulive]

Speakers made as road cases... first time I see that :D
The idea looks good at first but I'm not sure about the added weight and the fact that the speakers are left unprotected during the gig.
Hope you don't have too much drunks kicking around!

It definitely looks good though ;)

[timc]

Briliant looking speakers and subs.

However i agree with Eaulive. Some protection mesh might be in order.


-Tim

[macaroonie]

Kit has been getting some use lately , sounding superb for little uns :D

[macaroonie]

Well lets see , a couple of years have passed and the PA has been getting good use locally and with the Band.
They made an album in a proper studio and its on i tunes etc for download.

Plenty of images here http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Viper-Parade/134157649930793

here http://www.matthewboyle.net/2010/06/20/the-viper-parade-rehearsal/

here http://www.theviperparade.co.uk/The_Viper_Parade/Home.html

58091

There's plenty of JBL around , even in the Hot Rod amp ( see the shiny bit ). Anyway its been great fun and interestingly The viper parade have generated over £10K for charity. More than we have taken in actually.
Its been great fun and we are all best of pals. The new young bass player is an enormous talent and he has brought a new solidity to everything , keeping the drummer honest and so on.
Its not in the pics but he has a stonking Fender P bass in Metallic blue with achrome guard. What a great sound through those 2 2226's.

So the grand plan moves on. I scored some 2445's in reasonable conition so my intent is to get them into smaller top boxes with 2206's that I have.
Going to run these active. What a weight those drivers are , good thing we are all fairly fit.

I'm using P audio 2723 throats for this , 60 x 40 deg. I've found I need more throw and less dispersion at the HF. In busy pubs you need to get to the back of the room and the guitars are pretty loud so progress ..

58094

58092

On the downside , I did a loan of the simplest background music setup you could get , one speaker , amp , ipod input. This was for a small charity boozy event. No money involved and this is what came back.

58093

I said to the guy did you not see the smoke coming out the holes in the speaker. That and the PSU in the amp is shot , the big caps are whacked. So we know what the scenario was , bucket full of beer , lets go see how loud the stereo goes.
There are prats born every day in every village and every town in the land.
Anyway he will get a shock when he gets my repair bill.


M

[macaroonie]

One more thing , straight from the department of not fair , HugeMC as you all probably know scored an XTC system controller for a stupid price. Someone going to tell him I need it more than he does !!! :crying:

One more pic or two of the original cabs after a goodly number of gigs. Holding up pretty well I reckon.


58098

58097

[grumpy]

Nice Mac. I like that all those bits are getting a work out (some harder than others)
rather than sitting on a shelf, like little religious objects.

[guilty of this myself, to a degree]

[4343]

Well lets see , a couple of years have passed ...

On the downside , I did a loan of the simplest background music setup you could get , one speaker , amp , ipod input. This was for a small charity boozy event. No money involved and this is what came back.

58093

I said to the guy did you not see the smoke coming out the holes in the speaker. That and the PSU in the amp is shot , the big caps are whacked. So we know what the scenario was , bucket full of beer , lets go see how loud the stereo goes.
There are prats born every day in every village and every town in the land.
Anyway he will get a shock when he gets my repair bill.


M

Just be glad it wasn't a voice coil that smoked.:blink: (A burning spider makes enough smoke to alert even the drunkest miscreants to the fact that they have crossed the line!) That resistor needs to be replaced with a much higher wattage one... Put 4 of the same value in a 2 series/2 parallel arrangement (or 4 of twice the value in parallel) and make sure to leave some air space between them and the wood!

[macaroonie]

Just be glad it wasn't a voice coil that smoked.:blink: (A burning spider makes enough smoke to alert even the drunkest miscreants to the fact that they have crossed the line!) That resistor needs to be replaced with a much higher wattage one... Put 4 of the same value in a 2 series/2 parallel arrangement (or 4 of twice the value in parallel) and make sure to leave some air space between them and the wood!

Mike , thanks , however they were 50W rated resistors and I have had the pair running at some serious levels without any hint of trouble. The speaker that didn't go out has no sign of scorching on it at all.
Simple fact is they were being drunk and stupid. VC's are in good shape BTW. Actually the bass coil de soldered itself from the input terminal and melted the retaining cable ties. HF was running though. Worst of it was the gear came back a day late and when I challenged the guy about this he acted all innocent and don't know anything about it.
I'll have him though , its a small community.
I have some 100W rated heat sink R's in now mounted on a nother bit of alloy for good measure.

M