Cone or compression drivers?

[robertbartsch]

Well, I suppose there are pros and cons to each of these.

I have owned both cone and compression drivers (CDs) systems for decades now and I have observed this about compression driver systems:


CDs can be a tad harsh at times, especially if not set up properly; cones rarely exhibit harshness
CDs can sound very good when played at low, medium and loud levels where cone drivers sound best to me at medium SP levels
CDs have much more dynamic range
CDs typically are capable of playing at high SPLs with seemingly little effort
The horn type (wave guide) makes a big difference
CD effeciency ratings are usually quite high
Anyway, I'm glad I have several of each type since I often go back and forth between the two types. On rare occasions, when I want to crank it, I will nearly always favor the horns.

[jcrobso]

The draw back is that bass horns tend rather large.:blink: John

[timc]

CDs can be a tad harsh at times, especially if not set up properly; cones rarely exhibit harshness.



Well. If it isnt set up properly nothing sounds good. I have heard loads of Cones/Domes sounding harsh.......



-Tim

[Allanvh5150]

When designing my theatre I considered this question for a long time. I have always liked horns so the first mockup that I tried for my fronts was a cabinet similar to the synthesis. It had a 128, LE5 and 044 for music and then switched to a 2425/2370 for the top end for movies. To me it was brilliant and it sounded very, very good. I decided not to go for that type of system and instead opted for all direct radiating. It is used however, in a home environment and doesn't need horn loading to increase the efficiency of the system. I am hugely pleased with the system I have ended up with although there are still some modifications that I will be making. Maybe if the room was huge I would have opted for horns.

Allan.

[RKLee]

To me, its compression drivers/horns are the way to go. Compression drivers/horns have way less distortion than the comparable direct radiators/cones because in compression driver/horns, the diaphragm has to barely move in order to generate sound. In direct radiators/cones, they have to move a greater distance for a specific SPL than compression driver/horn, the greater movement, the greater the distortion.

[Mr. Widget]

To me, its compression drivers/horns are the way to go. Compression drivers/horns have way less distortion than the comparable direct radiators/cones because in compression driver/horns, the diaphragm has to barely move in order to generate sound. In direct radiators/cones, they have to move a greater distance for a specific SPL than compression driver/horn, the greater movement, the greater the distortion.Yep!

For high fidelity music reproduction I have been quite pleased with several driver types including electrostatic panels, ribbons, domes, and some compression drivers and horns... for home theater use, nothing really compares with compression drivers. In an action movie when there is a gun shot, an explosion, a car wreck, or simply dishes crashing to the floor... a high power compression driver type system can convey these sounds with powerful transient attacks more realistically than anything else... and while a vintage horn system may reproduce a violin from a symphonic recording that does not sound quite right, who really knows what these particular plates crashing on the floor really do sound like? If the sound is slightly colored but dynamic, you reach for the broom to clean up the mess. :bouncy:

A quality compression driver based system will make the home theater experience just that much more exciting. A compression driver based system and true subwoofers that extend far below what is typically required for music will significantly increase the sonic realism or at least believability in a home theater.


Widget

[Titanium Dome]

Before the thread veers completely into into a home theater discourse, the original topic was driver type not driver application. It's true that the application will influence the choice of driver, but in my experience, it's not as A/B as one would think.

First, one needs to think about space. How large is the listening environment, what is its shape, and what else in in it? Also, what positioning flexibility do you have in that space?

As a general--not universal--comment, the smaller the space, the more annoying many horns become. As rooms get large, then horn-based systems make more sense, though as Robert points out, the horn type is still a critical factor.

The wonderful SAM1HF Synthesis® system I just got is requiring the removal of a wall and thousands of $$ in room modifications; otherwise I've wasted my money. As it stands, it won't work in any room in the house, but I'm convinced it will be spectacular when the room is right. BTW, in addition to the three SAM1HF units there are four S4Ai units with all direct radiators, including three Ti tweeters in EOS Waveguides each. So it's not even a 100% horn deployment.

OTOH, my Performance Series HT sounds fantastic in the current HT 2,225 cu. ft. room, which is less than half the volume of the soon-to-be new 4,500 cu. ft. HT room.

Up in the spacious master bedroom with its vaulted ceiling, the S/2600 speakers with Everest DD55000 style horns are fantastic. I love their musicality in that environment, despite my general dislike of two-way horns for music. When I had them in the smaller master (14x16) bedroom with 8' ceilings at the old place they were not as satisfying.

For music, I still prefer four-way direct radiators in the home, and to tell the truth, if I had the coin to experiment, I'd buy a complete Revel Ultima2 system to try out in the HT in direct comparison with the Synthesis® Array Two Plus I'm installing. I have a feeling the SAMs would find themselves in real competition.

As always, it's the listening that counts, despite how easy it is for us to write blanket opinions about these things in forum postings. :blah:

[Mr. Widget]

First, one needs to think about space. How large is the listening environment, what is its shape, and what else in in it? Also, what positioning flexibility do you have in that space?

As a general--not universal--comment, the smaller the space, the more annoying any horn becomes. As rooms get large, then horn-based systems make more sense, though as Robert points out, the horn type is still a critical factor.I'll disagree with this blanket statement. It may be true for JBL horns/drivers and systems, I can't say as I haven't heard all of them... and I'd hazzard to guess that TiDome has heard and definitely owned more JBLs than I have, but I have heard numerous horn systems from other makers that work quite well in very small spaces.

As for HT vs. music only, I think personal preference is as significant as driver type. That said in general I think most people, not necessarily limited to those on this forum would come to a similar conclusion as the one I posted in post #6.


Widget

[Allanvh5150]

I'll disagree with this blanket statement.

Widget

I would have to agree with Widget on this one. If the "HT" moniker is a problem, remove it and insert the words "listening room". Most of the music I listen to these days is on DVD and just to mention one that is pretty damn good played on a good "HT" system, "The Eagles, Hell Freezes Over" is worth a listen. I have been involved with JBL since about 1980 and way back then everything here was horn loaded. Then we were hit with the diect radiating bug. Everything up top remained horn loaded but horn changed to CD technology. The bottom end driver count doubled or quadrupled. I dont think the reason had to do with the fact that horns were better but the fact that there was nothing else available. A 2480/2445 didnt take up a lot of space and I am sure it could have been done with a 5" driver and a tweeter of the time, by why would you.

"whatever spins your wheels" is a good policy to stick to.

Allan.:)

[spkrman57]

Both can be equally pleasing depending on how well they were designed and if they are being used in the fashion they were designed for.

Generally speaking, "I" would not use a horn system with high powered SS amp in less than a HUGE room.

I have a small room (12' x 16' - 8' ceiling) and using my low powered SET amps (5 - 8 wpc) and running efficient speakers utilizing horns for the mid/HF sections work very well at the listening levels I play the system at.

Regards, Ron

[BMWCCA]

Generally speaking, "I" would not use a horn system with high powered SS amp in less than a HUGE room. Looks like I screwed-up again! ;)








". . . as you have no doubt noticed, no one told the 4345 that it can't work correctly so it does anyway."—Greg Timbers

[Titanium Dome]

I'll disagree with this blanket statement. It may be true for JBL horns/drivers and systems, I can't say as I haven't heard all of them... and I'd hazzard to guess that TiDome has heard and definitely owned more JBLs than I have, but I have heard numerous horn systems from other makers that work quite well in very small spaces.

As for HT vs. music only, I think personal preference is as significant as driver type. That said in general I think most people, not necessarily limited to those on this forum would come to a similar conclusion as the one I posted in post #6.


Widget

It was more like a sheet than a blanket, hence the interjection "not universal," but since you insist on your point, then yes it's possible to have a horn in small places that doesn't completely annoy me and I'll withdraw the word "any" from my comment, purely as a gesture of goodwill. ;)

[Mr. Widget]

...and I'll withdraw the word "any" from my comment, purely as a gesture of goodwill. ;)Why can't world leaders work out their differences this easily? :D


Widget

[BMWCCA]

Why can't world leaders work out their differences this easily? :D



They don't spend enough time listening to good music on a good system? :dont-know

[timc]

I think you nailed it BMWCCA :applaud:


-Tim

[Fred Sanford]

I like my current compression driver tweets better than any other tweets I own, but the vast majority of the tweets I have (and have enjoyed hearing) are domes. There are a couple of cones here, but they're far down the list of favorites at this point.

je

[Tom Brennan]

There are so many mid-high horns with various dispersion patterns (disregarding other things that give horns sonic signatures) that generalizing how horns will sound in small rooms is impossible. A 120 degree horn is going to sound very different than a 60 degree horn.

As for the cone-dome thing, well I think $200 a pair KRK ST-6s from Guitar Center sound about as good as any of them. IMO electrostats and horns are cool but the whole cone-dome thing is just so----ordinary.

But people like what they like and it's senseless to tell someone who likes something that the thing he likes isn't good. That goes for Bose too, really. You know I wonder why the single-driver jaspers never defend Bose. Not esoteric enough I reckon.

Maybe if Bose did field-coils.......;)

[Ian Mackenzie]

There was good article in Studio Sound magazine about 20 year ago on this exact topic..cones versus compression drivers.

In summary the article said that while compression drivers may not compare in terms of smoothness and accuracy at low levels to a direct radiator cone they are in fact cleaner at higher levels where cone drivers suffer from cone cry (yes that is the term..gotta love it ..LOL).

In a recent review of the JBL LS 80 a reviewer wrote the loudspeaker performed its best a high volume levels. What I think they meant was it was cleaner at high levels than other comparitive systems.

While the JBL LS 80 is only horn loaded from 2500 hertz up it does suggest that horn loading is very advantagous in the upper midrange where traditonal cones and domes tend to suffer power compression and Xmax issues and they distort badly.

Back to the point I dont know any vintage JBL user that listens at low levels so the question is moot regardless of music or HT.

I mean I used to run 700 watts a side biamping a pair of 4343's playing music that would wipe the floor with any current day domestic HT system. But it never sounded loud. These days I only run 350 watts a side but I sit twice as close and the speakers are twice as big.;)

I guess the proof is in the listening.

[Allanvh5150]

Why can't world leaders work out their differences this easily? :D


Widget

They can. They just move a battle fleet into the affected area and nuke it!:D

[Titanium Dome]

As member Fangio learned here a few days ago listening to PT800/PS1400 full-range stereo stacks, inverted dome drives can sound fine at low, moderate, and high volumes. Of course for some of you old geezers with hearing impairments, 103dB may not be enough. :rotfl:

[Ian Mackenzie]

There are so many mid-high horns with various dispersion patterns (disregarding other things that give horns sonic signatures) that generalizing how horns will sound in small rooms is impossible. A 120 degree horn is going to sound very different than a 60 degree horn.



That will always be an endless debate.

But the crux of making a diy horn project sound good is not to attempt using the driver on a horn in a manner that is was not designed for as is crossing it over too low.

We have plently of theads here on equalising horns for a flat response. There is also some "useful" discussion around horn applications (what works and why) for domestic settings over on the Pi Speaker forum.

Steve Schell also has some interesting posts here on horn loading (including bass horns)

[jcrobso]

There are so many mid-high horns with various dispersion patterns (disregarding other things that give horns sonic signatures) that generalizing how horns will sound in small rooms is impossible. A 120 degree horn is going to sound very different than a 60 degree horn.

As for the cone-dome thing, well I think $200 a pair KRK ST-6s from Guitar Center sound about as good as any of them. IMO electrostats and horns are cool but the whole cone-dome thing is just so----ordinary.

But people like what they like and it's senseless to tell someone who likes something that the thing he likes isn't good. That goes for Bose too, really. You know I wonder why the single-driver jaspers never defend Bose. Not esoteric enough I reckon.

Maybe if Bose did field-coils.......;)

There are nice sounding, I never have had the time to really spend I lot of time listing to the KRKs but the are nice. The larger rooms have JBL 4412A speakers in them and really like them.

Hmmm, Bo$e and field coils, just the thought boggles the mind!!!:barf:

I then to love horns, but still like the other JBLs as well.:) john

[RKLee]

Yep!

For high fidelity music reproduction I have been quite pleased with several driver types including electrostatic panels, ribbons, domes, and some compression drivers and horns... for home theater use, nothing really compares with compression drivers. In an action movie when there is a gun shot, an explosion, a car wreck, or simply dishes crashing to the floor... a high power compression driver type system can convey these sounds with powerful transient attacks more realistically than anything else... and while a vintage horn system may reproduce a violin from a symphonic recording that does not sound quite right, who really knows what these particular plates crashing on the floor really do sound like? If the sound is slightly colored but dynamic, you reach for the broom to clean up the mess. :bouncy:

A quality compression driver based system will make the home theater experience just that much more exciting. A compression driver based system and true subwoofers that extend far below what is typically required for music will significantly increase the sonic realism or at least believability in a home theater.


WidgetI agree. I have had people come over to my place and get completely blown away by my home-built cabinet, and Altec 414s/806/811 & EV T350. They think I am a Thomas Edison, but actually it was the geniuses at Altec and EV. Anybody with rudimentary carpentry skills can be build a so-so cabinet, which I did. People can readily hear a difference in lower distortion, but not colored sound, ie if the colored sound isn't too bad. Think of the desk top computers with those whiz-bang sound systems and subwoofers, now that is colored sound.

[robertbartsch]

I few here have brought up the topic of bass horns which was not the focus of this post. However, in the old days of relatively low power amps, these were popular in both sound reinforcement systems and some high end stereo systems such as the corner Kliphorns.

Although I have not heard any bass horns for many years, I assume they have vanished from popular use because of weight and size issues and not necessarily performance factors.

[BMWCCA]

A few here have brought up the topic of bass horns which was not the focus of this post. However, in the old days of relatively low power amps, these were popular in both sound reinforcement systems and some high end stereo systems such as the corner Kliphorns.And JBL:
http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/specs/home-speakers/1957-c40/page1.jpg

[jcrobso]

I still have them, at the time I had a 25WPC amp. I loaded them with D140F and did get good bass from them even with the 25W amp.:) John