Question JBL Paragon [Archive] - Lansing Heritage Forums

Feroce

03-06-2009, 09:22 PM

hjames

03-07-2009, 05:51 AM

I thought there were only 1000 JBL Paragon made and they were patented and the secret of how to make them was closely guarded. This guy is selling the plans to make them on eBay.

http://cgi.ebay.ca/JBL-Paragon-D44000-Speaker-Construction-Plans-CD-ROM_W0QQitemZ310112807423QQcmdZViewItemQQptZVintag e_Electronics_R2?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116

Is this stuff just copies of components from the LH website and being sold? He even post a link to LH.

Ed
seems those plans turn up every so often - couple of folks here have built them ...
Paragons are a glorious styling exercise of an era ...
and the real value will always be with clean, original examples, not with clones ...

They did come with different driver loads, and some had built in amps (energizers)
Check the library and look them up in the catalogs ...

Do you like the sound of them? That is the ultimate question of any speaker design.
As I said, they are very much of an era -
think of the typical sound sources in use when they were in production.

That said, we know at least one owner here uses his pair to listen to Howard Stern ... :D

Fangio

03-07-2009, 06:25 AM

This guy
dougie.com is a member here.. you can PM him and ask direct.

Certainly several folks here have also bought 4311/4312 tweeter foam ring replacements from him, not just me. He has been very accommodative.

Feroce

03-07-2009, 09:17 AM

seems those plans turn up every so often - couple of folks here have built them ...
Paragons are a glorious styling exercise of an era ...
and the real value will always be with clean, original examples, not with clones ...

They did come with different driver loads, and some had built in amps (energizers)
Check the library and look them up in the catalogs ...

Do you like the sound of them? That is the ultimate question of any speaker design.
As I said, they are very much of an era -
think of the typical sound sources in use when they were in production.

That said, we know at least one owner here uses his pair to listen to Howard Stern ... :D

I just wondered if they were just a come on. I would like to see the plans to build the cabinets for them. Doubt if I would ever build them but I can still dream. The componets I know can be searched here in the library. Sometimes information gets lost over time and you wish you would have got it because you can not get it anymore. I would not listen to Howard Stern on them, nor would I on my own speakers. I don't even know where/when he is on the radio I have seen him on TV and I think one might loose some of the show over the radio.:blink: My brother did listen to a pair and he said it did not matter where you were in the room the sound was the same.
Ed

Feroce

03-07-2009, 09:28 AM

dougie.com is a member here.. you can PM him and ask direct.

Certainly several folks here have also bought 4311/4312 tweeter foam ring replacements from him, not just me. He has been very accommodative.

Good enough for me I just bought them.

Thank you
Ed

Fred Sanford

03-07-2009, 02:52 PM

Good enough for me I just bought them.

Thank you
Ed

Aren't they still available from JBL for ~$1.99? Is it an international sale/shipping issue?

je

Mr. Widget

03-07-2009, 04:28 PM

Aren't they still available from JBL for ~$1.99? They are still listed on the current parts list. You'd have to call to see if they are in stock.

part number 50402 $1.90.

Widget

Fangio

03-08-2009, 02:40 AM

Is it an international sale/shipping issue?
In my case it was back then, yes.

Rolf

03-08-2009, 03:46 AM

It will take a lot of know-how and a lot of tools to really build a "perfect" Paragon. Believe me, I ones had one, and for curiosity I removed how much that I dared do, and, ... wow.

If it is the purpose for a person to build just one it will also take a lot of money.

Don't know if it is true, but I have been told that there is a company in the US that still build them.

Hoerninger

03-08-2009, 04:21 AM

Rolf

03-08-2009, 07:06 AM

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=11909&highlight=xxl

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=17804&stc=1&d=1156709385

http://www.ronaldstroehlein.de/

http://www.ronaldstroehlein.de/bau1.jpg
____________
Peter

Yes, this is from the original production. I believe the man on the photo in Mr. Paragon himself.

I have been told, can't confirm it is true, but he was the one listening to every Paragon leaving the factory. Sanding, listening, sanding and listening and so on until he was satisfied.

After he was no longer available, (don't know what happened) the production was closed..

Feroce

03-08-2009, 07:45 AM

Well I don't know if I made a mistake spending that much money to buy the plans but I did not know any other way.

I said I don't think I will ever build "IT" (I was going to say them, I only need one) but after seeing the photos and links in this thread it looks like something I might want to do for the challenge. I do love a challenge and it does show in the show cars I have built over the years, Patent and books copyrights. What I have learned from General Motors in the Experimental Engineering is invaluable. Plus my best friend worked at the same place but in the Wood Model Shop. The drawbacks are I don't have any place to put it when done, so I would have to sell it and the cost to build is a factor since I am retired (Have time/low money:))

This all started from what I thought was a fraud. I never dreamed I could get the plans.

Ed

John

03-08-2009, 07:49 AM

couple of folks here have built them ...

Are you sure about that? I think there has been a lot of talk about it but no action!!!

hjames

03-08-2009, 08:38 AM

Are you sure about that? I think there has been a lot of talk about it but no action!!!
Pretty sure at a minimum, Maron's built one, and I was sure at least another member had done it ..

I built two PARAGONS back in the early 70,s I didnt carve out the legs I ordered those from JBL. The whole project me two months. Ill never do that again. I no longer have the plans.

see - http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=7403&postcount=14

Harvey Gerst

03-08-2009, 10:17 AM

Yes, this is from the original production. I believe the man on the photo is Mr. Paragon himself.

I have been told, can't confirm it is true, but he was the one listening to every Paragon leaving the factory. Sanding, listening, sanding and listening and so on until he was satisfied.

After he was no longer available, (don't know what happened) the production was closed..
Nope, not true.

The Paragons were built in the cabinet shop, located across the tracks, behind our Casitas Ave. main factory.

After the finished cabinets were built, they were brought over to the Casitas loading dock, where they were assembled, loaded with components, tested, then taken apart, and boxed for shipping.

We had one guy from the cabinet shop to do any touch up to the finish, but components were never installed at the cabinet shop.

The only person to ever hear finished Paragons were the people in QC (which for a long time, was just me). If it was tested just before lunch, I'd play music through it from an old Fisher tuner I had in the QC cubicle. That was about the only time people in the plant got to hear a Paragon (except for one that was sometimes set up in the test lab for visiting dignitaries).

It is probably true that only a few people were involved in building the Paragon (and the Hartsfield), since both were highly complex to build.

Rolf

03-08-2009, 12:28 PM

Nope, not true.

The Paragons were built in the cabinet shop, located across the tracks, behind our Casitas Ave. main factory.

After the finished cabinets were built, they were brought over to the Casitas loading dock, where they were assembled, loaded with components, tested, then taken apart, and boxed for shipping.

We had one guy from the cabinet shop to do any touch up to the finish, but components were never installed at the cabinet shop.

The only person to ever hear finished Paragons were the people in QC (which for a long time, was just me). If it was tested just before lunch, I'd play music through it from an old Fisher tuner I had in the QC cubicle. That was about the only time people in the plant got to hear a Paragon (except for one that was sometimes set up in the test lab for visiting dignitaries).

It is probably true that only a few people were involved in building the Paragon (and the Hartsfield), since both were highly complex to build.

OK Harvey, you have the knowledge, I just wrote what has been told to me.

Do you know who the man on the pictures are?

I know the drivers was not installed at the cabinet shop, but been told that every Paragon had a listening/measuring test before it was shipped. Not true? I have also been told that one of the most difficult thing to make was the curved front. True or not?

Harvey Gerst

03-08-2009, 01:04 PM

OK Harvey, you have the knowledge, I just wrote what has been told to me.

Do you know who the man in the pictures is?
His face is familiar, but I don't know his name. The cabinet shop guys didn't come over the tracks to the plant very often.

I know the drivers was not installed at the cabinet shop, but been told that every Paragon had a listening/measuring test before it was shipped. Not true?
While I worked there, a listening test, yes. A measurement test, no. The "listening test" consisted of running a sine wave through the system from 20 Hz to 20 KHz, using a HP oscillator, while I listed for rattles or buzzes or anomalies in the frequency response (like bad components, or crossovers wired out of phase, etc.).

Me listening was a pretty damn good test though. I had exceptionally good ears, hence my nickname "Hi-Fi".

I have also been told that one of the most difficult thing to make was the curved front. True or not?
Very true!! I believe we had to bend thin, wet pieces and build them up slowly, layer by layer, essentially making our own curved "plywood" by hand.

The Paragon was a piece of art as much as it was a sound system. I didn't like the bottom end of the Paragon (especially with the 150-4C's in it), but the stereo imaging was wonderful.

Hoerninger

03-08-2009, 01:41 PM

His face is familiar, but I don't know his name.
Ronald Stroehlein (http://www.ronaldstroehlein.de/) says on his page, the name of the Japanese is Fred Kato.

112 Stunden Handarbeit: Fred Kato schreinert in der Spezialabteilung von JBL in Northridge/Kalifornien seine Paragon mit Liebe. Er kann sich nicht vorstellen, jemals etwas anderes zu machen.____________
Peter

Mr. Widget

03-08-2009, 01:58 PM

The Paragon was a piece of art as much as it was a sound system.:yes:

And a magnificent piece of art at that... though they are considerably larger than they appear in photos. You need a pretty large room to comfortably accommodate one.

Widget

Harvey Gerst

03-08-2009, 02:23 PM

Ah, those photos are from Northridge, not Casitas. I left before they moved into the old RCA plant.

Fred Sanford

03-08-2009, 03:15 PM

A (http://A) nice Top View can be found here:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=29069&d=1192739848
(4800 x 1309 pixels :) )
____________
Peter

That's my scan - I didn't know that had been posted here. Thanks for that.

je

Hoerninger

03-08-2009, 04:44 PM

That's my scan - I didn't know that had been posted here. Thanks for that.

je
Glad you do not mind. Your original scan has been much bigger, 13199 x 3599 pixels.
Thank you again.
____________
Peter

Fred Sanford

03-08-2009, 06:06 PM

Glad you do not mind. Your original scan has been much bigger, 13199 x 3599 pixels.
Thank you again.
____________
Peter

You asked for detail, you got some detail! Glad it could help.

je

Oldmics

03-08-2009, 06:23 PM

Harvey

Can you tell me how many of the "industrial variant" Paragons you saw being built?

Got any idea when they quit building the industrial version?

Oldmics

Harvey Gerst

03-08-2009, 09:59 PM

Harvey

Can you tell me how many of the "industrial variant" Paragons you saw being built?

Got any idea when they quit building the industrial version?

Oldmics
Not too many while I was there. I remember one we built for Tony Curtis' pool house. And not too long after the Paragons came out, I got switched to Customer Service and designing the F series, so I didn't see too many Paragons pass through after that.

RKLee

03-09-2009, 12:12 PM

Harvey

Can you tell me how many of the "industrial variant" Paragons you saw being built?

Got any idea when they quit building the industrial version?

OldmicsI didn't know they made an "industrial" version of the Paragon. Does someone have a pic or describe as best an "industrial" version.

Years ago, I did 5 minute hearing test on a Paragon, sounded pretty good to my ears. It was an oil walnut piece, and looked really cool. I wish I could've bought it, it was like early ~1970s and it costed $4,000. But remember the minimum wage back then was $1.25/hour. In today's money it probably would've costed $40-50K per example.

Hoerninger

03-09-2009, 01:24 PM

http://www.audioheritage.org/html/profiles/jbl/paragon.htm

http://www.audioheritage.org/images/jbl/extracts/industrial.jpg
____________
Peter

Harvey Gerst

03-09-2009, 01:27 PM

I didn't know they made an "industrial" version of the Paragon. Does someone have a pic or describe as best an "industrial" version.
Basically, a flat black (usually a black stain) finish, no carved legs for the horn, and in plain plywood. Not too many were made while I was in QC; after that, I don't know.

John

03-09-2009, 02:03 PM

Pretty sure at a minimum, Maron's built one, and I was sure at least another member had done it ..

see - http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=7403&postcount=14

OK, IF that meets the standard of proof perhaps I made a few as well;)

:useless:

hjames

03-09-2009, 02:12 PM

OK, IF that meets the standard of proof perhaps I made a few as well;)

:useless:

"Standard of Proof"??
In THIS place??
Take it up with Maron ...
I just answered the question you asked ...

John

03-09-2009, 02:23 PM

"Standard of Proof"??
In THIS place??
Take it up with Maron ...
I just answered the question you asked ...

I only asked the question after you made the statement claiming Paragon's have been reproduced.:blah:

I seem to recall reading the same statements, that they were cloned but when pictures or more info was requested the poster was M.I A.:snore:

Heather don't take this the wrong way but just because something is repeated numerous times does not make it true or factual.:no:

hjames

03-09-2009, 02:49 PM

I only asked the question after you made the statement claiming Paragon's have been reproduced.:blah:

Heather don't take this the wrong way but just because something is repeated numerous times does not make it true or factual.:no:

How cynical do you want to get about this, pilgrim ...?:D

This is the internet - even in these forums you can't tell if your conversation is with a bona fide person, a sock puppet or just a troll ...

Some long term members may suffer if you require photo evidence when they claim to have owned something, or to have built something ...
and photos can be stolen or photoshopped ... are you SURE that cat in my Avatar is mine?

Where do you want the line?

If I had said "Maron claimed to have built a Paragon," thats pretty confrontational and tends to shut down friendly conversation ...
I figured saying he built one and providing a link to where he said he did served the same effect without being so aggressive about it ...

Hoerninger

03-09-2009, 03:29 PM

... but when pictures or more info was requested the poster was M.I A.

After I got no response on my first posting in this forum (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=6716) (601 views until now) I decided to do it my way.
The result is UGLY - Glen compared it with FRANKENSTEIN's work (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=11909) :).

But it sounds GREAT!

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=17512&stc=1&d=1156080045
____________
Peter

Hoerninger

03-09-2009, 03:29 PM

I could not resist.
____________
;) Peter :uhmmmm:

Oldmics

03-09-2009, 03:59 PM

I can definitivly state that Paragons (plural) have been built out side of the JBL factory.

I know where two of them reside.Unfortunatly the woodworker (Leroy) has passed away and taken the build secrets with him.

Leroy was Hal Coxs woodworker and made both Hartsfields and Paragons.

There have been numerious claims of building and I have seen some rather unusual build attempts at the Paragon.

Not an easy enclosure to duplicate.:banghead:60 some pages of plans as I recall. I"ll have to look.

And remember plans dont tell you how to build them.

Oldmics

John

03-09-2009, 05:46 PM

[quote=Oldmics;243859

There have been numerious claims of building and I have seen some rather unusual build attempts at the Paragon.
Oldmics[/quote]

I hear what your saying, I hope Heather is listening. I mean cloning a Paragon is not as simple as cloning a basic box which is what a 43XX system is.:banghead:

John

03-09-2009, 05:49 PM

Not an easy enclosure to duplicate.:banghead:60 some pages of plans as I recall. I"ll have to look.

And remember plans dont tell you how to build them.

Oldmics

:yes:

John

03-09-2009, 06:04 PM

How cynical do you want to get about this, pilgrim ...?:D

Where do you want the line?

Well how bout the truth. :blah:

You seem to realize there are some tall tales on internet forums yet you have no problem repeating these tales. I think your heart is in the right place but perhaps you should be a little more laid back in regurgitating these stories.:)

John

03-09-2009, 06:09 PM

are you SURE that cat in my Avatar is mine?

I would say YES, as I have seen him or her quite a few times in your other pictures over the years that you have posted on this forum.:bouncy:

Robh3606

03-09-2009, 06:13 PM

I could not resist.

You forgot the plant:applaud:

Rob:)

hjames

03-09-2009, 06:24 PM

I hear what your saying, I hope Heather is listening. I mean cloning a Paragon is not as simple as cloning a basic box which is what a 43XX system is.:banghead:

never thought or said it was a basic box ... never said it was a cloned 43xx system ... where are you getting the words you assume from me?

Back in the late 70s a friend of mine was apprenticed to be a cabinet maker. One of his tasks was to learn steam-forming curved surfaces - a non-simple skill to master that involved building up surfaces on a curve. I saw him build a project that's like a birds claw to hold a geode - it involved curved strips that were later carved in three dimensions. For another project he build a curved headboard - it was somewhat like building a barrel. Interesting stuff and he was in his early 20s when he studied these skills.

I've praised the folks like Reissen, mac and John for their vision and skills ... I do have some concept of the skills involved, and never underestimated them. I have no cabinet making skills myself and never claimed to ... but I did work as a machinist, 70-74 so I have some familiarity with tools and such concepts (bridgeport mill, turret lathe, that kind of thing).

I took folks at their word when they said they had done such a thing. Why suspect them?
Give them the benefit ... From this basic courtesy you have piled all kinds of things on me that don't belong ...

hjames

03-09-2009, 06:27 PM

Way too much energy spent on this silliness ...

4313B

03-09-2009, 06:36 PM

I took folks at their word when they said they had done such a thing. Why suspect them?
Give them the benefit ... From this basic courtesy you have piled all kinds of things on me that don't belong ...

Way too much energy spent on this silliness ...Agreed.

Mr. Widget

03-09-2009, 11:39 PM

... are you SURE that cat in my Avatar is mine?
Hold on... this isn't a self portrait?

Mr. Widget

03-09-2009, 11:40 PM

Allanvh5150

03-10-2009, 01:13 AM

A lot of the time with a build like a paragon it has more to do with "do you have ther gear to do it?". Cutting the profiles on a bandsaw or similar and making the jig to bend the plywood is a relatively simple task but you would have to ask yourself "would you want to?". And as other people have said you need quite a chunk of real estate to put a paragon.:)

Allan.

John

03-10-2009, 01:44 AM

Maybe not, but many, many people have the skills to do it. While the curved panel is going to be a bit tricky, I suggest the carved front legs are the hardest part and there are numerous people who carve gun stocks. If they can carve a gun stock they can carve a Paragon leg. It just takes patience... and sense enough to master it with a cheaper wood first. :)

Widget

Agreed, but I think a person would need the actual leg to make a copy. As well I think most of the people that have the skills have no intrest in hi-fi or a paragon unless they were hired to construct one. I think the cost to hire a cabinet maker with this skill level to make one complete Paragon cabinet , plus all the components would be as much as buying a real one so what is the point?:banghead:

Allanvh5150

03-10-2009, 01:56 AM

This is how I would machine a gun stock. Dead simple.:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EH1Ahvttma0

Allan.

Rolf

03-10-2009, 03:47 AM

As well I think most of the people that have the skills have no intrest in hi-fi

So you are saying that the Paragon is NOT hi-fi? The place I lived before, I had the room for it. Paragon played good. Today, the largest I can put in is the 4343, witch I have. If I could change the 4343's to a Paragon I would do it, but I don't have the room for it.

The Paragon is a one of the kind ... filled the room with music. Maybe it doesn't have the really low notes, but who needs something below 30Hz?

Feroce

03-10-2009, 05:13 AM

Hi ,

rebuilding a Paragon is a nice task, but it seems to be difficulty to get an adequate woofer.
I found a CRAAFT 15/400 LC and compared it with JBL LE15A using HORNRESP 8.10 by David J.McBean. Until now i could never compare results of this programm with real frequency responces - and i've never seen a frequency responce of a Paragon.

For the LE15A I choose 60 liters rear compression chamber volume (VRC), for the 15/400 LC 110 liters. I don't know the real volume in a Paragon.

1. Do you have experience with this programm, is it useful?
2. Are showing the digramms right results ? (first 2 attachments JBL, then CRAAFT)
3. Is the CRAAFT a good replacement of the JBL?

I would be happy about answers.

Hoerninger
Hoerninger post copied over here.
Link to the program he used
http://mywebsite.bigpond.com/dmcbean/
As for me WAY over my head. Just trying to keep it all in one place.
Ed

Feroce

03-10-2009, 05:38 AM

This is how I would machine a gun stock. Dead simple.:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EH1Ahvttma0

Allan.

There also also duplicating machings that can be used. I did gunsmithing for 15 years and I have a 1921 Walther auto shotgun that the stock was missing and I had to make one from photos I found. I used BONDO to make it then shipped it to the dup to make it out of wood. There are only 4 of these guns that we can find in the US very small production. Just a different way to do the job, wood is not so easy to work with bondo when you make a mistake just add more.:)

Ed

Feroce

03-10-2009, 06:15 AM

Think about this. If you had the Paragon with a Plasma TV above it would you need your 5.1, 6.1 or 7.1 DD Surround system?:)

This is one the photo that I used to make the stock. There were two different stocks used that we could find in the archives. BTW when the stock comes back it is in the rough you have to finish shaping, fitting and finishing then checker.

Ed

Mr. Widget

03-10-2009, 09:01 AM

So you are saying that the Paragon is NOT hi-fi?Yes! It may have been at the dawn of Hi-Fi, but there are $600 loudspeakers today that are far more accurate and extended in bandwidth.

Maybe it doesn't have the really low notes, but who needs something below 30Hz?True... many people don't miss the lowest notes. I do like really deep bas when the music requires it, but it isn't absolutely necessary all of the time. That said, the Paragon can't even approach 30Hz and the bass it does produce is very colored sounding. I suppose you could get used to it, but I'd rather not.

All that aside, I still want one. I think they are the penultimate vintage JBL.

Widget

Maron Horonzakz

03-10-2009, 09:25 AM

Just to put the record straight,,I made two JBL paragons,,2 1/2 months each.. Photos of the unit in construction were published in AUDIOFAN magazine,,Aug 1966 vol 2 no. 8 First legs were carved in pine as a working template.. second set of legs carved in walnut... You definately need to make a jig to hold curved panel in correct shape as you laminate 1/8 inch panels to get proper thickness buildup. I actually made three panels... The clones were as close to the origionals as possible,,Useing a factory Paragon as the diminshional reference,,Plus plans (mine) It was no easy task to make these Paragon clones,,,, My hat is tipped to the gentleman at JBL who made over a thousand of the Paragons,,What an accomplishment. As far as I know three Paragons were made in St Louis,, the third unit was wider than the 103 5/8 dimension to accodamate a different mid horn/driver installation,,, But that unit held the curved panel dimension the same as factory unit. Actially the Bass curved panel horn was easier to make than the reflecter curved panel. Anybody on here making any comments or inuendos that i didnt make these Clone Paragons wouldnt say that to my face,, I have enough integrety not to lie to anyone,, Plus I have enough witness,s to the actual construction.. Please refer to the magazine if yo have a copy.

57BELAIRE

03-10-2009, 09:34 AM

[quote=Mr. Widget;243907]Yes! It may have been at the dawn of Hi-Fi, but there are $600 loudspeakers today that are far more accurate and extended in bandwidth.

As with all "horn" systems, the Paragon is far from accurate , but with
judicious placement and proper equalization it can be "toned down"
to please even the most critical listener.

What captivates the audience (besides it's striking appearance) is
that immense soundstage and powerful slam akin to having a live
band in your living room :applaud:

Mr. Widget

03-10-2009, 09:53 AM

...but with judicious placement and proper equalization it can be "toned down" to please even the most critical listener.You think?

From my experience the "most critical listeners" won't even tollerate the phase shifts introduced by an equalizer.

I do agree that there is something quite special about an all horn loaded system. I have heard a few that were reasonably accurate and those have been quite something to behold. It's the sort of thing that gets people like Dick Burwen and Roberto in Italy to build massive custom rooms with inclusive horns.

http://www.burwenaudio.com/Sound_System.html

http://www.royaldevice.com/custom.htm

JeffW

03-10-2009, 10:42 AM

I think they are the penultimate vintage JBL.

Widget

If the Paragon is the penultimate, which one is the ultimate?

RKLee

03-10-2009, 10:50 AM

Yes! It may have been at the dawn of Hi-Fi, but there are $600 loudspeakers today that are far more accurate and extended in bandwidth.

True... many people don't miss the lowest notes. I do like really deep bas when the music requires it, but it isn't absolutely necessary all of the time. That said, the Paragon can't even approach 30Hz and the bass it does produce is very colored sounding. I suppose you could get used to it, but I'd rather not.

All that aside, I still want one. I think they are the penultimate vintage JBL.

WidgetAbsolutely true.

Back in the days when the Paragon was SotA(state of the art), the primary source of music was vinyl LPs, and they were pretty devoid of anything in the absolute low and high ranges because most consumer type equipment couldn't reproduce it. Remember the recording companies had to make LPs that a little teenager could play on portable battery-powered turntable. Making LPs with sound on the extreme ends would cause playback on those machines to sound with a click or some other nasty noise. It wasn't until the 1970s when "audiophile" LPs such as half-speed mastered Mobile Fidelity and Nautilus was available, where they had true hifi sounds available. And back then, the trick was trying to play it back. Very few consumer phono cartridges at the time could actually play back those sounds without "miss-tracking."

To me, the main "forte" of a Paragon is being able to reproduce music at super low distortion levels, even though it was fairly colored over that of the direct radiators of the period. You could actually hear it sounded better, I was completely blown away. But also I was impressed the visual appearance, which was and still is, today vastly different than an other loudspeaker. The oil walnut was so smooth, I could see my face in it(figuratively speaking of course). Vast amounts of hand rubbing(ie manual labor) went into the finishing of the cabinet.

Mr. Widget

03-10-2009, 03:59 PM

If the Paragon is the penultimate, which one is the ultimate?The Hartsfield silly.

It has the cool retro thing going for it and it sounds closer to something I'd care to listen to. ;)

Widget

tom1356

03-10-2009, 04:17 PM

Mr. Widget

03-10-2009, 05:09 PM

Penultimate means second last not second best.Hmmm... yes, but it is used here to mean almost the final as in almost the last word.

Irregardless (that's a joke!) some would call the Paragon near the bottom of the pile of speakers sonically. Perhaps some would consider it the second from the very bottom. :)

Widget

John

03-11-2009, 12:01 AM

never thought or said it was a basic box ... never said it was a cloned 43xx system ... where are you getting the words you assume from me?

I never claimed you said anything. You just feel a need to repeat things you have no actual experiance in. :o:

I know you will go on and on with this but Like you said, There is "Way too much energy spent on this silliness". I think I can find something more intresting to do so you can Carry on if you feel inclined to do so. :wave:

Feroce

03-11-2009, 04:19 AM

Maron Horonzakz

03-11-2009, 06:09 AM

FEROCE,,,, No I dont have a copy now,, The Photos were Poloroid,, I have copies somewhere,,, But since the move to North East Tundra of Mo. I hav,nt unpacked all the box,s,,,I was going to make another variation of the Paragon addressing the problems of the origional,, Now that we have better drivers and woofers,, A wider bandwidth unit could be designed going only two way,, TAD Be drivers and better low frequency woofers,,, Redesigning The horn for a lower cut off,,,The unit would be even wider but the same height,,, But alas I,m not kicking up as much dust as i did back then,, 4 way bypass has slowed me down.

57BELAIRE

03-11-2009, 04:05 PM

[quote=Mr. Widget;243912]You think?

From my experience the "most critical listeners" won't even tollerate the phase shifts introduced by an equalizer.

I do agree that there is something quite special about an all horn loaded system. I have heard a few that were reasonably accurate and those have been quite something to behold. It's the sort of thing that gets people like Dick Burwen and Roberto in Italy to build massive custom rooms with inclusive horns

Jeez, I wouldn't know a "phase shift" if I heard one.

I'm talking about musicians hearing their tracks played back on the Paragon...sort of like those 4350 control room playbacks that "sealed
the deal" back in the day. :o:

.

Mr. Widget

03-11-2009, 11:11 PM

Jeez, I wouldn't know a "phase shift" if I heard one.

I'm talking about musicians hearing their tracks played back on the Paragon...sort of like those 4350 control room playbacks that "sealed the deal" back in the day. :o:I bet if you were shown the difference you'd hear it...

As for musicians... I find it surprising how many excellent musicians can be quite satisfied with nothing more than a boom box.

I take it from your posts you find the Paragon musically satisfying. While I have only auditioned them a couple of times and have never lived with one for an extended period, I am quite certain that their glorious sonic performance is not the reason they command such a high price on the used market. ;)

Widget

Rolf

03-12-2009, 01:53 AM

While I have only auditioned them a couple of times and have never lived with one for an extended period,

Widget

Maybe that is the problem Widget, you have never lived with it. I lived with the Paragon from 1978-1991/92.

At first I was very disappointed with the sound. After talking to a friend of mine, who had the Paragon some years, adjusted the knobs on the crossovers, bought other electronics, things got much better. I must admit that is was not until 1982 that the Paragon really started to "sing". I then had a HK record player with a "Rabco" arm, a really expensive pic-up (at the time), I think it was a "Audio Technica" "Signet", a DB preamp and two large KenWood L-09 Mono Amps. This combination sounded very good.

This was at the start of the cable area, but I am sure that some better cables would have improved the sound a little bit.

Mr. Widget

03-12-2009, 08:22 AM

Maybe that is the problem Widget, you have never lived with it. I lived with the Paragon from 1978-1991/92.Yeah, eventually my senses would get numb and I'd appreciate it. :D

I am not dumping on the Paragon. It just doesn't offer what I want. The Paragon that I have listened to the most is at an older friend's home. He bought his new in '58 or '59. He has been listening to it ever since. In the early '80s he replaced the LE15As and the crossovers with new ones... as the sound was no longer quite right and it didn't occur to him to have the woofers reconed and he didn't realize the drivers were under warranty. He also updated his McIntosh gear to new pieces in the '90s.

I've listened to this system fairly extensively and I understand why it still puts a smile on his face. I think it is neat too, but it really shows us how far audio engineering has come since then.

Widget

Doc Mark

03-12-2009, 02:13 PM

Greetings, All,

I have only heard a JBL Paragon once in my life, and that was in a very busy, and super noisy stereo store in San Diego, many years ago. So, in truth, I've not really "heard" them in a fair environment.

One thing that has always struck me about that system, however, is that they seemed to be "digital ready" far in advance of the actual digital age. Am I right about that? I look forward to hearing what you all think. Thanks, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

Rolf

03-12-2009, 02:28 PM

Hi Doc.

Most JBL speakers was well prepared for the "digital age", as there was not so much difference in the sound in the studio compared to today's digital recordings.

The "attack" of the sound in a studio, using good equipment in "the old days" is very much like what you get on a cd today playing at home today. First when the record or cassette, witch we listened to in our homes at that time, the sound was poorer. This was especially noticed in the low and high frequency.

As ones said: "low notes require a much wider record groove, and a lot of wide record groves will decrease the playing time on each side of the record". This is taken from the JBL record "Sessions".

To get very high frequencies on a record at that time, recording speed of 30" pr second, and Dolby A, witch was the ultimate at that time. Also taken from the same record. (Sessions)

Hoerninger

03-12-2009, 02:48 PM

... they seemed to be "digital ready"

What ever this means, a full horn system delivers sound in a way other speakers will not accomplish. No boxiness, very dynamic. And when there are used high efficiency speakers with a proper amp you can get very high undistorted sound pressure levels. (There is no comparison to a smallish 8 inch box.)

The soundreflector of the Paragon lets go a lot of sound to the side walls of the room left and right. The rest is reflected ahead and performes a smallish soundstage. (The tweeters are not well integrated.) With this sound distribution the whole room is subjectively filled with sound. You can stay where ever you want. When you look at the picture of the XXL you see that it is placed to the right of the stage (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=243855&postcount=33). But when you sit in the left of the audience you do not have the feeling of being too far to the left. It is a very unusual effect. I have tried it even at home with two boxes turned to a cardboard reflector in a 26 feet wide room - it worked fine.

Just my 2cts.
____________
Peter

John

03-12-2009, 04:36 PM

Greetings, All,
I have only heard a JBL Paragon once in my life,
One thing that has always struck me about that system, however, is that they seemed to be "digital ready" far in advance of the actual digital age. Am I right about that? I look forward to hearing what you all think.
Doc

NO, Not ready then or now!!!:no:

Maron Horonzakz

03-12-2009, 07:06 PM

The Paragon sound is dated...Only the 375 driver reflects off the curved panel,,Tweeters placed in the back of bass horn are useless,,and limited in bandwidth,,Xovers are dated and harsh, Digital ready??? no, about as bad as the original Hartsfield,,(two way)and just as phazy

jerry_rig

03-12-2009, 07:12 PM

My uncle had a Paragon he bought from a friend around 1974 for a song. He had no idea of its stature or heritage. I listened to a lot of rock through that speaker and it sure could get loud. I particularly liked the clarity of the midrange horns.

Just for fun, he let my band use his Paragon as a front-of-house PA speaker at a small theater outside St. Louis. We split the sections -- one on each side -- and pointed the 375s at the crowd, as much as that was possible with half the reflector backing in the way. Although it wasn't perfect, it didn't sound half bad!

Maron Horonzakz

03-12-2009, 07:18 PM

I lived in St Louis back then,,What theater??

jerry_rig

03-12-2009, 07:36 PM

I'm sure you never came across this one: it was in Troy Mo.

Maron Horonzakz

03-12-2009, 07:46 PM

I gas up in Troy going down to St Louis now... Somebody had a Ampex RtoR for sale last year..from Troy,, Thought of picking it up. There are still a couple of Paragons still in good condition in STL.

John

03-12-2009, 11:40 PM

I'm sure you never came across this one: it was in Troy Mo.

Right on Hwy 61 from Bob Dylans song!!! Never fueled up there but have been to the walmart.:blink:

That is my favorite highway between the Saints:applaud:

It will be sad when they turn it into a interstate, then everyone will know about it.:(

Maron Horonzakz

03-13-2009, 06:51 AM

In St Louis Harvy Bender ownes a Brazilion Rosewood Paragon,,Former JBL dealer of Hi Fi West,,, I stop buy and give it a listen once in awhile.. Still a good work of Art,,Not a scratch on it.

Doc Mark

03-13-2009, 08:34 AM

Morning, Friends,

Many thanks for your thoughts on this question of mine!

I very probably should have offered a description of what I have always thought being "digital ready" meant. To me, it simply means that a set of speakers is able to handle the increased dynamic range, and clean transients, of CD's.

Back in the early 1980's, when I was working at Schaak Electronics, in Minneapolis, when we got our very first CD players to sell, we had a store meeting to educate the sales staff about them. Our first ones were from JVC, and the Sales Rep from JVC told us, in no uncertain terms, about the dangers of playing CD's on speakers that could not handle the vastly increased dynamic range, and quick transients, of CD's!! He actually told us to warn our customers that it was possible to blow up their old speakers, if they were not careful in how they used their CD's!! :blink: Now, I know what he was really trying to say, but it was all quite scary back then, even though I now know that some of what he told us was misinformation, mixed with just a little :bs:!! :D

I realize that the Paragon, and other such dated speakers, do not have a frequency response range that can keep up with good digital material, but, hey, quite a few of today's speakers don't either! ;) So, for me, just being able to handle the dynamics and transients is, pretty much, "digital ready". I consider our L300's to be outstandingly "digital ready", but others might disagree. Thanks, again, Friends, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

Rolf

03-13-2009, 10:38 AM

The L300/4333 in MORE than ready for this. Read my post above.

Maron Horonzakz

03-14-2009, 06:03 AM

As i stated before the Paragon is sonicly dated,,, But can be redesigned to resemble a expanded Metragon over 8 or 9 feet wide,,Useing the same curved panel size (Width),,, Plus useing the Array verticle horn/driver and a more advanced woofer concept. After all the Everest II is not that far off from the JBL 4435 low frequency concept,,but useing more state of the art transducers. Paragon II

Mannermusic

03-14-2009, 06:47 AM

Interesting comments - yes, the Paragon is "dated," etc. And that may be the essential story here - a historical marker of sorts. As I recall, it was developed as a unique/ultimate expression of stereophonic sound which appeared c1957 - remember it well! Stereo was an industry "game changer" in home Hi Fi so the Paragon was a perfect engineering/marketing "showpiece" for JBL - generated a lot of interest, showroom traffic. The dealer had one here in Detroit and we all thought it was "interesting" but I'm not sure they ever sold one. We all bought components and built enclosures, but it was that "cool" dealer with every imaginable demo system that really got our juices flowing. Savvy marketing, I'd say.;) Mike

jbl_daddy

03-14-2009, 06:52 AM

The paragon had and still has the ability to provide a better experiance than most anything out there. I listen to a 1981 Paragon in my family every now and then. With the correct material and tri-amped they sound great. There is some material that sounds better on my 4340's but not much.

jbl_daddy

03-14-2009, 06:58 AM

Ps. The JVC rep. Talking about digital readydoes not have a clue. A digital recording is just a more acurate representation of the original material, recording studios did not recently get speakers in the with the invention of the CD player.:bs:

Maron Horonzakz

03-14-2009, 07:00 AM

Yes Jbl was great at helping the DIY to build there own stytems,,, But they have moved away from that concept,,, You have to scrounge in the junk yards of ebay for drivers and parts... Unless you live in Japan...Try to get a 476be or 476mg today they,d let you die in the gutter first. At least TAD has a side door open.

Feroce

03-14-2009, 01:11 PM

I am reading all this and right now I am listing to my Realistic Minimus 7 speakers with my Phase Linear Pre amp and amp, using my technics SL-1400MKS to spin Thelma Huston "I've got the Music in Me" and it just does not get any better. I just would like to get my speakers back from being re-coned to hear the real thing again. Now this system is in its own room for stereo music only. One of the other rooms has my plasma TV and 6.1 surround system. The Paragon was made to listen to music two channels like a band on stage in the old days. I do like the thoughts of a Paragon II :applaud:(for music). I guess if you are going to do it do it right, it is a lot of work.
Ed

Doc Mark

03-14-2009, 06:19 PM

Hey, Feroce,

Your comment about the Minimus 7's made me laugh! I have two pair of them, down in the Hobbit Hole, and I've given thought to bringing them up, and hooking them into my system, bi-amped to the 4645 subwoofer!! Of course, I'd hide the sub, and then watch people's faces as those little 7's seemed to shake the house!!! :bouncy:;):applaud::D DANG, that would be fun! I just might have to do it, one of these days. Of course, I have to make time to actually hook up that sub, in the first place... But, I'm hoping to do that later this week. It's loaded up and just waiting for me to have a couple of spare hours for JBL play! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

Feroce

03-14-2009, 07:28 PM

Doc
You made me laugh because I drove the 7's to hard and they started to pop real bad. I looked and I had the EQ base turned up to loud. Those 7's just can't do the base thing. When I get my 15's going again I will put the 7's away for another day, they are just great speakers:). I have not heard my vinyl in YEARS. I put the speakers away because of the wife, shes gone :applaud:....glad I still have my speakers.
Ed

Doc Mark

03-14-2009, 09:49 PM

Hi, Ed,

In truth, I, too, like those little Minimus 7's! Back when I used to play music on the road, almost everyone in our band had at a pair of them in their vehicles, and another pair in their hotel rooms. I thought that, for their small size, and inexpensive price, they didn't sound half bad! I've heard that, if you rebuild the crossover with updated components, it really smooths out the top end, and takes some of the "sizzle" away, whilst leaving a nice extended HF. I may try that someday... In any case, I do think that I'll hook them up to the JBL sub, just for fun, and for the nostalgia of hearing them again. They are not as efficient as the JBL's, so I'll really have to back off on the LF, but it will still be fun! I'll post some photos here, when I do it, just for grins! :D Until your JBL's are back up and running, it's nice that you have some little 7's to take up the slack, as best they can, and keep you in the music. I remember that Julian Hirsch (at least I think that was his name), from Stereo Review, gave the Minimus 7's a very nice write up, back in the day, and thought that, for what they were, they were quite nice and well worth the money. Interesting, eh? NOT JBL's, though, by any stretch of the imagination!! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

Zilch

03-15-2009, 01:49 AM

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=199790

Doc Mark

03-15-2009, 07:30 AM

Hey, Zilch,

WOW!!! I've just enjoyed two cups of hot Earl Grey tea (decaf, of course!), whilst I negotiated my way through that outstanding thread you recommended!! FANTASTIC stuff, there, Mate!! Well done, and HUZZAH to you and to the other Gents that banded together to come up with the wonderful final results of your efforts!! I've save the end results, and will most definitely upgrade both my pairs of M7's! Thank you, and the others, for some absolutely stellar work, Zilch!! I've read it here, and at AK, before, but I'll say it, too, "You da' MAN"!!! :D:applaud::bouncy: Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

Feroce

03-15-2009, 05:59 PM

So let me see if I got this right. The Pargon II wider with two updated minimus 7's one on each side hidden back inside and a JBL sub in the closet.:applaud:

Ed

paragon

03-16-2009, 03:22 PM

Zilch,

sehr schön, dein JBL Wachslogo als Avatar, wo fehlt das denn jetzt ?
Very nice, your JBL waxlogo as avatar, where is it still missing yet ?

Eckhard,:D

Feroce

03-19-2009, 11:58 AM

BTW: The question that started this thread. I forgot to say the Paragon construction plans I bought from dougie.com on eBay are GREAT well worth $12.95!!!:applaud::applaud::applaud:
Ed

Mr. Widget

03-19-2009, 11:02 PM

BTW: The question that started this thread. I forgot to say the Paragon construction plans I bought from dougie.com on eBay are GREAT well worth $12.95!!!:applaud::applaud::applaud:
EdThat's cool... are you going to attempt building a Paragon?

Even though it may not be sonically what many would want, I could see it being a very rewarding experience. I have thought about building one... I am sure I could do it, though probably not as quickly as some of our illustrious members. :D

Widget

Oldmics

03-20-2009, 08:07 AM

How many pages are the plans that you recieved?

The original plans that I have are over 60 some pages. :banghead:

Oldmics

Feroce

03-20-2009, 09:36 AM

Widget
I did think about doing it but after reading the post about them being outdated I think I may pass now. I have thought about making a scale model just for fun (easer and cheaper).
I also know I am sure I could do it, though probably not as quickly OR AS GOOD as some of our illustrious members. :D

The idea of the Paragon II :applaud:sounded very good using new speakers and bigger that Maron was talking about but I could never be able to design it.

As i stated before the Paragon is sonicly dated,,, But can be redesigned to resemble a expanded Metragon over 8 or 9 feet wide,,Useing the same curved panel size (Width),,, Plus useing the Array verticle horn/driver and a more advanced woofer concept. After all the Everest II is not that far off from the JBL 4435 low frequency concept,,but useing more state of the art transducers. Paragon II

Oldmics
There are 88 items including Technical Manual Schematics. I included an example page.

Ed