New Italian speaker company

[scott fitlin]

I happen to be in the market for some new speakers for my cabinets, and I decided to use some RCF 18,s in some of my folded horns, and I came across another Italian manufacturer that everyone seems to like nowadays too! I am very happy with the sound of the RCF 18,s in the cabinets I put them into. Nice, clean, good definition, and solid thump, without excessive boom.

Anyway, theres this company called Eighteensound, and they have a 15in driver for basshorn use! 103db1w@1m sensitivity with a frequency graph that looks to be about right. So Im gonna get two and try em out!

But what really caught my attention was the amount of different 8,s, 10,s, 12s, 15,s and 18,s both ferrite and neodymium magnets, for just about any application, that they offer! All the Italian pro speaker manufacturers seem to have many types of drivers, like our American companies used to. B&C, RCF, and Eighteensound have nice product lines, and seem to be of high quality manufacture. I did say Im happy with my new RCF 18,s and they are well made.

Another thing to point out is that the prices are also somewhat reasonable, its not cheap, but not overpriced either.

Check em out on their website www.eighteensound.com and just browse!

[Guido]

One crazy guy I know have ten (10!) duoble scoops!
He changed all 2225 and 2226 that where inside them to 18sound speakers and said they are much better and have 3 to 5 db more output.
I was lucky and bought all the 2225 to recone them to 2235.

18 sound is definately comparable to JBL but we should not discuss this on a JBL Forum :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[scott fitlin]

This is why I put it in the OFF TOPIC section. Its a speaker company, and Im finding much favor with their line of products, and I want to talk about it!

Im not saying you should change from prized JBL,s you find favor with, rather I am just showing manufacturers who have good sounding products, for a very wide range of applications, at reasonable prices.

If JBL made more stuff today as they did years ago, I wouldnt be talking about these other companies!

The basshorn driver, the 15MB700 I mentioned happens to be what Im auditioning to replace my Altec 421,s! The frequency response, sensitivity, T-S parameters, and power handling look to be very good. The determining factor will be in the actual listening of course!

Anyhow, I feel it is ok to talk about things other than JBL, its why we have an Off Topic section!

:rolleyes:

[scott fitlin]

This basshorn woofer sounds good, nice transient response, clean smooth rise into the mids, punchy, efficient, and good power handling!

The Eighteensound product is well made, well engineered speakers. I looked at one model of their 18,s when I was picking up the first two 15,s and I was impressed at the build quality.

Supposedly they have a very good engineering staff, formerly from RCF, and the drivers are priced nicely.

[jbl]

Originally posted by Guido
One crazy guy I know have ten (10!) duoble scoops!
He changed all 2225 and 2226 that where inside them to 18sound speakers and said they are much better and have 3 to 5 db more output.
I was lucky and bought all the 2225 to recone them to 2235.

18 sound is definately comparable to JBL but we should not discuss this on a JBL Forum :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Hi Guido
I must disagree with you here. If more people like Scott would bring competitors products to our attention, maybe JBL would take note. The JBL 15" woofers - (I believe the 2025 & 2035) used 3" voice coils. I feel this was a direct result of Altec leaving the pro market. If you were to look at JBL ads, they compare their 15's with 4'' coils to their competitors 2.5" voice coils and used this as a selling point. There are electromechanical reasons for a larger voice coil with a large driver which JBL was and is still aware of.
It would be a big mistake to limit this forum to the older JBL's and not keep up with what the competition here in the U.S. as well as over seas is doing. Altec did just that (among other bad business decisions) and look where it got them.

Ron

[scott fitlin]

Thats the point! See, here was my dilemma, I have Altec basshorns here in my system, and there really arent anymore established major manufacturers making dedicated basshorn drivers anymore! But I happen to like the sound that comes from these old fashioned cabinets with the right drivers. I happened to hear about this company from a friend of mine, who was telling me about their 18in woofers in folded horn use. They are a relatively new company with GOOD engineers, and when I went to their website to see what they have I was literally in shock. Heres a company offering drivers for any application you have, with good frequency response, good sound, and great power handling!

When I stumbled onto the 15MB700 I thought to myself this looks to be about right, and the manufacturer does state its ideal for horn loading, so I called Canal Hi Fi here in NYC, and they have them in stock as well as other models. I went to look at them, decided they look nice, and the store even has a test setup to give you a rough guesstimate of what they sound like! So I bought two, and they cost $249 ea. Not bad at all!

I installed them in two Altec 816 cabs and they work, very well. Transparency, punch, efficient, and clean sounding. No 800hz howl either! So it looks like I will be getting ten more of these!

I wish JBL made drivers like the 2220, but updated, but they dont and they wont. I wish Altec were still in buisiness, but they arent. GPA,s stuff, which currently handles the Altec line sounds good, but the Eighteensound products can handle todays power and play very cleanly. Thats important to me.

Eighteensound products are worthwhile to me so far, and I will go where I can get what I need and I like!

:cool:

[scott fitlin]

Well, I have been running the pair of Eighteensound 15MB700,s in the Altec 816,s since last Wedensday, and you know what, they are good speakers! The transparency and punch they offer is very good, and the overall sound is very good. Each musical note is in its own individual space as its supposed to be. Very clear and present through the all important low mid/vocal range and they way they put percussions out into the room. And they are CLEAN sounding!

Im loading my cabinets with them, and Id be willing to bet ALL this companies products are good.

Im currently thinking about what to power them with! Anybody have any suggestions? I am heavily thinking about Crest Pro Series for these as I am nothing but happy with Crest Pro Series on my sub bass.





:cool:

[Guido]

Originally posted by jbl
Hi Guido
I must disagree with you here.......
Ron
Hi Ron!

You are right. These things should be discussed.
I'm dissapointed about the JBL strategy too. They do not give a ..... about the DIY market anymore. In Japan they start to serve the DIY market again. Maybe they will come back here too??
Although I'm not interested in their new "state of the Art" speakers at all I could think of selling the "old" drivers in high numbers.
In the meantime I try to find substitutes for JBL speakers every day. Look at my posts.

JBL discontinued the 2344? OK, I measured the P-Audio PH316 and found out that it might be even better. It will take place in an direct A/B Test with my new DIY 4435 as soon as they finished.

JBL discontinued the 2235? Fine, try the Beyma 15B100R

18sound have no studio gear yet. But they will have and then I'll test it.

[locanti]

Hi all

Guido:Sorry but the BEYMA 15B100R does not exist anymore.It was one of the best 2235H copy(I beleive the best with the AUDAX PR380M2 ) but is no longer in production.

But Scott is right when he said that some new speakers can beat JBL drivers.

3 years ago, I had to replace a paire of 2205a for my Bass custom made combo.I bought a pair of an Italian manufacturer CIARE PW384 not too expensive(more or less €200/piece),just because I did not had the time to recone and find too expensive to buy new JBL 15" drivers.These CIARE drivers just sound fine,very dynamic,effortless and less boomy than my olds 2205.As a bass player ,I found my sound punchy and stressless.

I still keep my olds JBL drivers(Most of them Alnico )but I use them only for my stereo system.I listen old Rock&roll from the50', 60' and 70'.It 's more for collection and for the "old sound"than for their performances.

Through the years ,I listen to better systems than mine,made with new technology and greater "know how".

Did you listen to WILSON" WATT PUPPIES"or"GRAND SLAM", ONKYO "GS1" ,JM LAB "GRAND UTOPIA"or TANNOY "CHURCHILL" Even JBL made fine systems.Did you listen a pair of S3100 or "project K2"serie?Can you tell me this kind of system did not make music?

It appears that we're all dissapointed about the JBL strategy,but if JBL managment does not want to work with the DIY market no more,what can we do?

I had a pair of 4333A with JBL 136A drivers with 2235H recone kit(Can't find 2231A)I keep a pair of BEYMA 15B100R just for the day I will have to recone the 136A.

But some times i replace them by the BEYMA drivers and ....Well....
They just sound great in the 4333a enclosure,just as the 136A and maybe better.
But this old stuff just smell as our old days,gone but not forgotten(Remember Marcel PROUST and his "madeleines").

So,What you think about that?
:rolleyes:

[Guido]

Thanks for popping in Locanti

1) I still sell new Beyma 15B100R for 229 Euro each! If you need some, let me know.

2) I'll have 2 JBL 2231H with original! cone in ebay next week. If you are interested, let me know.

3) I think that the "old" JBL sound is still better then most of the new crap that is sold in the hifi shops today. I own a pair of 4343B, a pair of 4425(DIY) and soon a pair of 4435 (DIY) and a pair of 4313B (DIY). I'm not much interested in new JBL stuff.

[scott fitlin]

I think vintage JBL did and still does sound terrific. Its todays line of JBL I am not in love with.

I cant figure out JBL execs either, you talk to people over there, and they tell you they dont make that stuff anymore because no one wants it anymore! Yet, vintage JBL drivers of continue to sell on Ebay for very premium prices! New members are registering on our forum all the time, searching for items, and information, and to share their own tales of how good vintage JBL is! But what do we know? But no one wants this anymore!

In the professional domain, I see EAW, Meyersound, and others, as well as JBL, where you once saw only JBL exclusively! But I talk to pros and some of them wish JBL made some of the OLDER pro stuff, too!

Your right, JBL doesnt really cater to the DIY market either, and you know what else? They stopped making consumer hi fi speakers, and what they do make aint for me!

I happened to stumble across Eighteensound, and if I didnt try the basshorn drivers they make I would always be wondering about them, but now that I have, they are good, and they can take power, too! 400 watts continuos pink noise, so I have the room to use healthy power, and never clip, and they sound good! JBL says no one wants bass horn drivers anymore, but I do! I can also tell you I see many vintage Altec 15in drivers sell on Ebay for good money too! As well as the nice buisiness Bill Hanushak has made in creating Great Plains Audio to service older Altec, as well as build new if you like! But, no one wants this anymore!

If Eighteensound can build drivers that are Very High Efficiency, but can also work in todays real world applications, how come JBL cant or wont?

The One thing JBL DID do was create a very lucrative market for used vintage JBL speakers, drivers, and parts! Savvy individuals have done quite nicely earning money this way, dont you think?

Most importantly I have found something I thought was gone, unless you bought from the used market, that is made to work for todays applications.

But no one wants this anymore!

:confused:

[scott fitlin]

I purchased my RCF 18,s from www.usspeaker.com, and I had a nice conversation with Al, and I asked him about the Beyma E-140 and E-120 copies they are advertising, and he told me, " yup, Beyma,s making that for us cause people want it " !

[locanti]

Maybe the question is:Can JBL build and sell these kind of speakers(2235h,E-120,E-140 or else) for the price we bought copys sold by european(Italian or spanish) or asiatic companys?

I mean,I can buy a pair of good copy of 2235h for half the price JBL sold the last one.Does the difference worth the money?
Why should I bought an original one if it does not sound better or if it has nothing more?:confused:

[johnaec]

I cant figure out JBL execs either, you talk to people over there, and they tell you they dont make that stuff anymore because no one wants it anymore!I think JBL is just trying to chase the money. Case in point - they know how much the younger generation is into car audio, so what did they do? Put a bunch of development into that instead. Take a look at their W10GTI, W12GTI, and W15GTI car subwoofers. These use virtually the same "differential drive" design they put into their most expensive Vertec series of pro-audio drivers, and at least on paper, blow the pro-audio subs we're used to out of the water, ('haven't seen any distortion specs, though...). And they list from $499 to $699 each. I don't yet know if their sonic quality warrants those prices, but it's obvious JBL believes there's more market there than with discriminating home/studio enthusiasts...

BTW - I was able to pick up a W10GTI at a fire-sale price from a place that was closing. It IS impressive, but I haven't put it in a cabinet yet...

John

[scott fitlin]

Which came first, though, did the other companies start producing lower cost JBL copies and cut too far into JBL, or did JBL stop making something it seems many still want and leave an opening in the marketplace for another manufacturer to move into?

[locanti]

If the HIFI consumer market became too short,why didn't they enter the home audio-video market with good stuff and not with the tiny speaker they sell?:confused:

[scott fitlin]

:confused:

[scott fitlin]

I really think marketing thought they could get away with it because they had the three almighty letters, JBL!

Make cheap, priced to sell items, from a company with a big name, and sell tons of volume.

[jbl]

I feel that once a non-audio company like Beatrice Foods bought into JBL, the "thinking" of audio was replaced with the bottom line of the over all parent company. It's the same old story of showing the stock holders a profit before being concerned about the existing companys reputition. I don't believe that the market for DIY and pro audio has dried up. The "knock-off" companys may have had some effect on JBL's sales, but I still believe that most people would rather spend a little more for the real thing. I know I would.

[Maron Horonzakz]

Look what happened to Altec when they didnt follow the market.

[4313B]

Who is this "Altec" everyone keeps mentioning?

[boputnam]

Originally posted by Giskard
Who is this "Altec" everyone keeps mentioning? Giskard!! :scold:

[4313B]

Yes Bo? :coolness:

[boputnam]

:rotfl:

Slow friday, hey...?

[Maron Horonzakz]

Did i commit a SIN?

[Alex Lancaster]

Actually, when Beatrice-times, (early 80´s), JBL was really commited, maybe when the re-purchase, things got worse.

[scott fitlin]

Originally posted by jbl
I feel that once a non-audio company like Beatrice Foods bought into JBL, the "thinking" of audio was replaced with the bottom line of the over all parent company. It's the same old story of showing the stock holders a profit before being concerned about the existing companys reputition. I don't believe that the market for DIY and pro audio has dried up. The "knock-off" companys may have had some effect on JBL's sales, but I still believe that most people would rather spend a little more for the real thing. I know I would. The DIY and Pro markets have done anything but dry up! especially the pro market, they are spending tons of money on gear!

The "Audio " companies keep telling us " Oh, no one wants that anymore " but I dont feel its true! Remember the late 80,s and early 90,s? They ( audio companies ) told us how bad horns were, and that no one wanted horns anymore! Look at what a rusurgence horn loaded cabinetry has made. And almost every manufacturer offers horn loaded or waveguide midrange and bass! Wonder why, after all its obsolete! Anybody ever see the horn speakers from a company called Avant garde? And they have a very expensive " Audiophile " folded horn subwoofer!

Maybe Im nuts, me and my very high efficiency love affair, but then all the drivers I loved disappeared from the market! Again being told nobody wants this anymore! However, European manufacturers must see something American manufacturers dont!

Then came the " Digital Revolution ", and once again we were told Analog is obsolete, and no one wants it anymore! Seems like no one really wants the DSP processors being offered up as the " Holy Grail of Audio "! And analog audio is very much alive and well!

Then, lets just look at our own little group right here! 2235,s, 2440, and 2441,s. Guys like Widget making stellar wood copies of JBL 2397,s. E-145 lovers, and the legend of the 150-4C! L-300,s and JBL,s studio monitors, no longer made, etc, etc!

Lets be real, were all into the same thing, good sounding gear, and speakers. And JBL could do it these days if they wanted too! And just for the record, I would have kept my spending in our economy if the manufacturers had what I wanted. I believe in that! But what to do when what you get from across the pond is better than what you get here? Kind of like the Auto industry? No?

:wtf:

[johnaec]

The DIY and Pro markets have done anything but dry up!And JBL has done anything but give up on the Pro market, at least as far as the tour stuff goes. The problem is, they don't normally sell the components in those, and you won't find the component specs published anywhere... I'd love to see the actual tech specs on their differential drive subs, their new 8" mids, HF drivers, horns, etc...

John

[scott fitlin]

I got to hear JBL subs today powered by the NEW Crown I-Tech 4000. JBL 2242,s I might add! You know, the superwoofer. And I have heard these things sound really good!

I listened with an open mind, and thought lets see what they have created!

NOT MY MONEY!

[johnaec]

JBL 2242,s I might add!I was thinking more along the lines of the 2256G - Xmax of 20.3mm and Fs of 24.2. I'm wondering how it compares to the Sub1500? And I've seen very little technical info on their neodymium 243XXX series of 1.5" HF drivers. I'm just wondering how some of this stuff would sound if put in serious studio or home cabinets with appropriate passive/active crossovers and EQ...

John

[Maron Horonzakz]

So who,s buying up these 2256G.s and 2435.s & 2250.s ? And why havent these components filtered down as scrap from the stages of our entertainment buisiness?

[johnaec]

Originally posted by Maron Horonzakz
So who,s buying up these 2256G.s and 2435.s & 2250.s ? And why havent these components filtered down as scrap from the stages of our entertainment buisiness? 'My question exactly... I know lots of sound companies are using the Vertec series, (that use these components), and the components are available as replacement parts, but I've seen no technical info on the components themselves besides the bare minimums. I'd like to think JBL values low distortion, flat response, etc. in these "pro" components as much as they do/did in the 43XX, 44XX, etc. series, (that use many of the same components they used to put in their "pro sound" stuff), so I don't know why they're not offered separately, unless JBL thinks there's no market, they're not "connoisseur" quality, or they're too expensive...

John :confused:

[Oldmics]

Howdy Gang
The parts are availiable as johnaec pointed out.They are availiable as an advanced spares kit for pro touring applications.

I would guess that the limited availiability of these pro devices is intended for supporting the owners of the Vertec boxs first.

I have been waiting quite some time now for an order that I placed for a single low frequency driver.When the order was placed I was told that this was only the second order ever placed for this driver as an individual part.While we all would like to have the latest and greatest parts for our projects,this tiny two pieces ordered would never justify the R+D that went into these drivers design.Only thru Vertec sales could this cost have been justified.

I agree that the information about these new fangled devices is difficult to obtain.(Difficult but not impossible).Again availiable to those who own Vertec boxs. JBL is taking care of those who have plopped down there money for this technology.Those people have spent MAJOR money and there support of this product comes first and then the scraps are divvied out.

And yes,these drivers are stupid expensive.Or as a friend of mine at JBL says "We are really proud of these ! "

Please don"t think that I agree with this policy but I do understand the business nature of this limited parts availibility.

Oldmics

[scott fitlin]

Originally posted by johnaec
'My question exactly... I know lots of sound companies are using the Vertec series, (that use these components), and the components are available as replacement parts, but I've seen no technical info on the components themselves besides the bare minimums. I'd like to think JBL values low distortion, flat response, etc. in these "pro" components as much as they do/did in the 43XX, 44XX, etc. series, (that use many of the same components they used to put in their "pro sound" stuff), so I don't know why they're not offered separately, unless JBL thinks there's no market, they're not "connoisseur" quality, or they're too expensive...

John :confused: See I waited to let someone else mention Vertec! But now that you have, Ill add on to it.

I have heard it used in a MAJOR Manhattan Nightclub, and at concert venues. The Vertec as a club install isnt right nor will it ever be! But I can understand that, because to me the Vertec is for arena sound.

But even at the concerts I think its funny sounding! I thought the subs lack depth, and the line arrays arent as clear as I would think such expensive premium technology should be! Very high powered, DSP controlled, but lacks finesse in all areas. Jus my opinion.

I can understand JBL holding back with availability of raw drivers, and keeping them for Vertec owners, but I still dont like Vertec!

I heard the HLA rig several times, and although its no longer available, I wasnt keen on it either.

I love the 70,s and 80,s sound of JBL, but I guess Im not much for the New JBL!

[scott fitlin]

I just wish to say that I realize that companies must push into new areas, and develop new technologies, but I wish JBL would remember their past, and produce a limited line of Signature JBL sound components!

I wonder what would happen if they did a limited run of say 1000 JBL 150-4C,s! Think they would sell out?

[Mr. Widget]

Originally posted by scott fitlin


I wonder what would happen if they did a limited run of say 1000 JBL 150-4C,s! Think they would sell out?

The 150-4C cost $138.00 each in 1964. That would put it in the $1,380.00 neighborhood 40 years of inflation later. I bet it would retail for about that too if they built an exact replica.

How many would you order Scott?;)


Widget

[Oldmics]

Hey Guys

Check out this inflation calculator

http://www.aier.org/cgi-aier/colcalculator.cgi

[Guido]

Originally posted by Mr. Widget
The 150-4C cost $138.00 each in 1964. That would put it in the $1,380.00 neighborhood 40 years of inflation later. I bet it would retail for about that too if they built an exact replica.


They could sell it for 400 USD and earn hell lot of money even though.

Anyone of you know where they REALLY produce?

[locanti]

Hey OLDMICS!

Funny calculator.
I 'm ready to buy a pair of HARTFIELD for $6,138.84/piece immediatly($993 in 1962):rolleyes: :)

[scott fitlin]

Originally posted by Mr. Widget
The 150-4C cost $138.00 each in 1964. That would put it in the $1,380.00 neighborhood 40 years of inflation later. I bet it would retail for about that too if they built an exact replica.

How many would you order Scott?;)


Widget IF, and I do mean IF, they had a driver that I flipped over I would order the amount I need to do my system!

I have tried EVERYTHING and not for the longest found ANYTHING to replace some of my older drivers ( Altec ) until I came across Eighteensound, and purchased two 15MB700,s! I like them and so does everyone else, and yesterday I placed my order for another ten, plus the two they had in stock! So, I have two spares, as well as operating stock!

I have twelve TAD1603, and I thought about building bass reflex boxes that would be more suited for these woofers! I have 4 TAD 1601A,s and these are the best sounding to my ears of this type of driver, but also, requires a bass reflex cabinet!

However, nothing gives that basshorn sound if youve got the right driver! So now I got the right driver, and I will stay with my basshorns!

I called JBL a few times this winter, looking for E-130,s as that will work in a basshorn, but they dont have any left, and they arent making them anymore! I have serched through every American manufacturers catalogs looking for a suitable basshorn driver only to keep coming up empty! IF JBL made updated 2220,s or some suitable driver for my application they would have recieved an order for 12-14 of them. I look at things as you only have to buy it once if its right the first time!

Ill tell you what I DID NOT wish to do! Scour the used market for items that I might have to fix, and not be sure if its exactly what things were 20yrs ago!

SO, if JBL made a woofer suitable for basshorns such as 150-4C,s or 2220A,s but updated for todays power, I would have auditioned them, and just like I did with 18sound, if they were right, I would have bought!

Another thing to point out, is that I am in the middle of changing ALL my power amps, so basically, at the end of the month I, effectively, have an almost entirely new system. With fantastic headroom, and healthy power, to handle the demands of todays music!

I gotta say this too, the power handling and clean sound of the 18sound MB drivers allows me to do something I havent been able to do previously. Increase my power and headroom, but still maintain the certain type of tonality I love.

And just for the record, the reason I cant do a four way full range, with dedicated low frequency cabinets, and horn loaded twelve or ten in midranges, and high mid horn ontop is I just dont have the ceiling height. I must work within the limitations of my room, however, WHAT THIS room can do, with the right stuff is UnF#$*ingbelievable!

But, If I was willing to spend for 12 TAD 1601A,s you really think I would flinch at JBL if they had something I really wanted?

:cool:

[scott fitlin]

Originally posted by Guido
They could sell it for 400 USD and earn hell lot of money even though.

Anyone of you know where they REALLY produce? I have been told that JBL has some of thier stamped frame drivers made in China! Im not sure if this is true, but, doesnt Crown, now owned by Harman, have a series of Crown amps that are assembled in China?

[Mr. Widget]

Hey Scott,

I understand where you are coming from, I was only pointing out that the demand for that specific driver wouldn't cover the tooling as they no longer use that type of construction on any of their current drivers. Personally I would get blown drivers and recone them or do as you've done and find an appropriate driver made by someone else.:eek:

Now on the issue of horn loaded bottom ends (Please, no pun intended) I believe I read on one of our threads but couldn't find it in a quick search about Sony using several JBL Sub1500s in horn loaded cabs for a theater or pavilion in London.

I realize you don't need much XMAX for a typical bass horn, but the super stiff cone would certainly work well with a horn design.

Widget

[scott fitlin]

I hear that, and let me clarify something, I use six double 15in straight front loaded horns for midbass, and I use 18,s for sub bass! So the sub 1500 wont do it for me, as I use bigger woofers for sub!

Mr. Widget I know you know alot, and you build awesome, if not the best JBL clones I have ever seen! But ya know what? That you build JBL clones of vintage horns and speaker cabs says it all! You wanted something they dont have, so you had to find an alternative means of getting what you wanted! Lets talk about the dance club market for a minute! In the 70,s and 80,s JBL was in EVERY nightclub all over the world! Tweeters, midbass, sub bass, midrange, etc! In the 90,s when JBL began to change dramatically, many people I know no longer liked the newer drivers, and stopped using JBL in installs! Now along comes EAW, with a dedicated line intended for dance clubs ( Avalon ) and literally blew JBL out of that market! EAW makes basshorns, push pull bass, horn loaded mid, and makes these inverted pyramid beyma loaded tweeter arrays! And ya know what else? people actually say this stuff sounds better than present day JBL! But ya know what else? JBL did this to themselves! They didnt care about nighclubs as a market till they no longer had them anymore. Just like the Home Hi-Fi market. They could have kept up as the leader. But they didnt, and other companies took over and filled a void in these markets! Sure, now, after the fact, JBL has finally introduced a dedicated line for dance clubs, but unfortunately its too late! EAW has a strong foothold in that market.

I remember all too well, back in 90-94 being told how many things were obsolete, and didnt work well or sound good, and I personally worked as a DJ on many systems with technology that on paper was better, but in reality didnt sound as good! I mean, I would have kept my dollars in our economy, but I need what I need.

Its alot like the Auto industry, remember when the cars from Detroit werent so well made anymore? Everybody has at least one Japanese or European car these days! Why?

I see many people into vintage style audio, between this forum, Todd White,s forum, Audiokarma, and I also see on the prosound forums the use of items non-JBL. There is, in my opinion, a market for traditional items, as well as people who will buy them!

As for the pro,s many of them are into compression drivers from the likes of manufacturers like Beyma! Years ago the best sounding comp drivers were JBL, at least to my ears! And vintage JBL,s still, to this day, surpass, sonically, most everything out there!

I dunno.

[Maron Horonzakz]

So when a company like JBL does,nt listen to its customers They make the same mistake that Altec did?

[Ken Pachkowsky]

This was an interesting read. Funny how we die hards just can't accept the logic of JBL execs who have taken the road they have.

Ever wondered what direction they would have gone if James Lansing was still around?

One thing you can always count on. Things rarely stay the same. I doubt JBL will ever be the market leader it once was.

I too often wonder why JBL does not do a run of some of the original drivers mentioned in this thread. A couple of thousand 150-C's could put one of us into retirement. With 375's selling for 2 grand a pair, whip up a few of those as well.

Have a good one.

[scott fitlin]

The one thing the modern JBL definitely did do, was to create a very lucrative second hand market for vintage JBL drivers! And savvy individuals have done quite nicely earning money this way!

I have no idea what James Lansing would do if he were still here today! Im pretty sure, though, that improvement and upgrade, as well as new development would be undertaken.

As for whether or not the cost of tooling would be covered by the sales, well, the Asian market alone would cover the costs of tooling and more........... They also, seem to not be able to want the newer stuff.




:rolleyes:

[scott fitlin]

We are up to 4 pages on this Off Topic thread!

Not bad, I love stirring it up!

:cool:

[johnaec]

Originally posted by scott fitlin
As for whether or not the cost of tooling would be covered by the sales... :rolleyes: That's a mistake I think many companies make, (audio industry, auto industry, etc...). If they just kept the original tooling intact instead of scrapping it and "updating" to newer stuff for newer models, the cost of producing these "older" components would really be low, (and hence more profitable!) - most of the tooling would be fully amortized by now! Or does the older tooling just wear out, meaning retooling anyway? (I really don't know...)

John

[scott fitlin]

I think had they held on to some of the older tooling they could have done things with it. Some tooling may wear out with prolonged use.

But you see, lets go back into the early nineties when all the companies, especially JBL, told us you DONT want that old stuff anymore! We have drivers that will handle 600 watts these days! We have Titanium diaphragms now, and they are better than aluminum! Remember, they DID tell us this. But my ears told me different. 600 watt drivers for midbass did not sound as open and extended as 150-300 watt drivers. And Titanium diaphragms dont sound as nice as aluminum. But they told us, and me personally this was the way to go.

I was reading the advertisement of the 1500AL woofer on JBL,s website and they specifically state how the " Deep, Energetic Sound Of Alnico is Back "! They state that Alnico demagnetizes with high power extended use, but they have that problem solved, so Alnico sound has returned! And here I always thought that the industry moved away from alnico because of the expense of cobalt. And to boot they told us that the ferrite motors had lower distortion, sounded better, etc, etc! And now here they go, or have been I should say, touting the sonic advantages of Alnico! Bear in mind I am not putting ferrite magnet drivers down, as there have been many successful examples using these magnets produced!

So my point is if they can make a woofer like the 1500AL and sell them, they can make some signature series, or new designs based on the older drivers, and if they sound a certain way and people WILL want them, they will in fact sell!

P.S. One more of those Auto industry analogies again. Retro is in! Ford came back out with a newly designed Thunderbird. Chrysler has that 300C which has a somewhat retro look. The PT Cruiser with its old fashioned milk truck look! The Beetle came back! Mini-Coopers are new? Retro is in vogue! Oh, and Chevys new SS truck, thats retro!

I dunno.

:bs:

[scott fitlin]

SOLVING A LONG-STANDING PROBLEM, LEADING TO DEEPER, MORE ENERGETIC BASS:
THE 1500AL ALNICO MAGNET WOOFER.



The magnetic circuit is a speaker's most fundamental component, the very engine of sound. Alnico magnets, prized for their lively, high-energy sound, were once widely used in the magnetic circuits of high-end speaker systems. But, because Alnico magnets tend to demagnetize at high power levels, they've all but disappeared since the 1970s, when amplifier power outputs increased ramatically.

Having successfully overcome the demagnetization problem, JBL's engineers are pleased to reintroduce the deep, energetic Alnico sound.

The 1500AL is built around an Alnico 5DG magnet. A 2-inch (50mm) aluminum shorting ring below the voice-coil gap, combined with fifteen 0.03-inch (0.8mm) copper rings and sixteen 0.06-inch (1.6mm) steel rings that form an inner gap ring assembly, effectively stabilizing the local and global magnetic fields - an engineering first.

• A Symmetrical Field Geometry™ (SFG) circuit, specifically designed for the 1500AL, creates vertical symmetry and generates a constant magnetic-flux density of 0.52 tesla across the entire 0.10-inch (2.54mm)- wide and 1.6-inch (40.64mm)-long gap.


• The diaphragm is a 15-inch (380mm)- in-diameter fiber-pulp cone. Naturally dried to increase fiber strength, the cone's surface features corrugated ribs for added stiffness.


• Aquaplas™, applied to the rear periphery of the cone, helps to eliminate distortion at high power levels. And a newly developed, lightweight, low-loss, EPDM foam-rubber edging ensures long-term durability. The curved shape is computer-modeled for maximum precision of movement.


• A symmetrical double-damper structure of Nomex® cancels asymmetrical, nonlinear, motion- reducing harmonics distortion.


• A 3.94-inch (100mm)-diameter, high-density voice coil is built of 0.06-inch x 0.01-inch (1.524mm x 0.15mm), flat, aluminum ribbon wire wound to a width of 0.8 inch (20.32mm). Used with a newly developed SFG magnetic circuit, it achieves linearity without distortion up to a maximum cone excursion of 1 inch (25.4mm) peak to peak.


• JBL's unique vented-gap cooling system employs three air tunnels running from the polepiece to the magnet cover to efficiently radiate the heat generated by the voice coil, while also controlling the back pressure of the unit.

[Figge]

hi! its strange that jbl stopped making those big expensive studio stuff? when for example genelec has a hole line of BIG studiomonitors. that costs around 35000 bucks probably each....

http://www.genelec.com/products/1036a/1036a.php


how is it possible that no one wants jbl? so they stopp making it while others continue... shouldnt it be the other way around?



any suggestions?

[4313B]

Originally posted by scott fitlin
We have Titanium diaphragms now, and they are better than aluminum! Remember, they DID tell us this. But my ears told me different. And Titanium diaphragms dont sound as nice as aluminum. But they told us, and me personally this was the way to go.The titanium diaphragms were more reliable than the older aluminum diaphragms were. There was a demand for higher powered c.d.'s and the titaniums were up to the challenge. JBL is back to using aluminum in the latest diaphragms in such c.d.'s as the 2435AL and 435AL and they now have kapton surrounds to increase their reliability.

Originally posted by scott fitlin
I was reading the advertisement of the 1500AL woofer on JBL,s website and they specifically state how the " Deep, Energetic Sound Of Alnico is Back "! They state that Alnico demagnetizes with high power extended use, but they have that problem solved, so Alnico sound has returned! And here I always thought that the industry moved away from alnico because of the expense of cobalt. And to boot they told us that the ferrite motors had lower distortion, sounded better, etc, etc! And now here they go, or have been I should say, touting the sonic advantages of Alnico! Bear in mind I am not putting ferrite magnet drivers down, as there have been many successful examples using these magnets produced!The magnetic assembly of the 1500AL is extremely high tech. It boasts all the technology learned to make the SFG ferrite assemblies sound better and perform better than the older alnico V assemblies AND it has the latest technology to prevent demagnetization. In other words, it completely wipes the floor with the old alnico structures and spanks the SFG ferrite structures fairly well too.

[scott fitlin]

My point is that if we go back to `94, JBL told us the old stuff was no good anymore. Personally I never got into the Titanium sound, and I really dont have reliability problems with my 2441,s either!

Alnico. Unless everything ever published about Alnico and why it stopped being the primary speaker magnet material is wrong, they stopped using Alnico because of the expense of the cobalt! So, if they had continued to use Alnico for speaker magnets, they would have undoubtedly improved the technology quite some time ago!

I will stand by what I have said, I understand companies pushing the envelope and coming up with new designs and technologies, but, they should offer something that retains the characteristic sound that made them so famous in the first place!

And, Sir Giskard, I will also add on one other little tidbit, I have to admit I am glad that JBL does continue to have availability of parts for older drivers!

I have heard some of the LATEST offerings from JBL set up at concerts, and other venues, and while it does have extremely high power handling capability, it isnt the sound I am looking for! Mind you, I am not saying its bad, just not exactly what I want! However, to be very blunt on one particular thing, I still find the DSP controlled systems to have a funny, electronicky sound!

As for my being very vocal about about buying drivers from an italian speaker maker, well, I was very seriously trying to figure out what type of box i wanted to have built for using todays 15,s! But when I saw the 18sound mid bass drivers I had to try them. And once I did, they worked well in my straight front loaded horns! And I like horn mid bass, I like it better than bass reflex, even though reflex will get down lower. I love my Basshorns! I would buy JBL if they had a bass horn driver! But they dont! I would use a JBL 15 in a reflex cabinet, if they have one I really like! Unfortunately, their 2226 isnt at the top of my list! The 1500AL looks to be interesting, but it needs more time in the marketplace to prove itself, dont ya think? There was the tiny litttle problem with the spiders, and I would not be very happy if I had twelve of these very high tech, very expensive woofers letting go in some way on me!

Then of course there are availabilty issues!

What can I say? I love VINTAGE JBL, and Im entitled to my opinion! But I respect your opinion and right to like whatever you want to!

:cool:

[4313B]

Originally posted by scott fitlin
What can I say? I love VINTAGE JBL, and Im entitled to my opinion! But I respect your opinion and right to like whatever you want to! :cool: The reliability of the titanium diaphragms and the superiority of the 1500AL magnetic structures exist regardless of my opinion. My opinion has virtually nothing to do with either.

[scott fitlin]

maybe the Ti phragms are more reliable, but I dont care for their sound, and Im not blowing the 41,s! The only 41 that let go was one out of six, after a ten year span! So Aluminums reliabilty is good with me! And I like the sound!

But why after all these years of Alnico being too expensive to use in speaker magnets, and it is expensive, has JBL decided they need to offer an alnico magnet woofer? After all they do feel there are so many items that just wont sell in todays market, like coming out with a design based on a signature series woofer or driver, I just wonder!

Maybe their motors are in fact superior, I cant say, I havent used em, but everyone seems to like them as subwoofers! I just feel if they can make this type of woofer they can make others too!

JBL still has the tweeters though! I like them!

:cool:

[Maron Horonzakz]

And so we now have the 2450SL diaphram made of Ti aquaplazed...now sounding like aluminum.

[scott fitlin]

We do have the Aquaplased version, the 2450SL, and in the future, should I have to change from my 2441 drivers, I would audition these!

But, I have listened to the 2450J, as well as TAD compression drivers in here and I like the sound of the 41,s. Theres something about them. Didnt buy the 2450J,s, and I put my 41,s back on the horns after I installed the TAD,s.

However, as long as my 41,s are in good operating condition, and I can get diaphragms for them, is there a reason to change them?

To date, I havent found a driver I really like better! The 41 has a certain sound.

[Maron Horonzakz]

You should have put in the Radian aluminum diaphram in the TAD . It changed the TAD to a more pleasing sound. The 5 slit TAD gives it that clarity.

[scott fitlin]

I know about Radian diaphragms. I tried a radian replacement in one of my 41,s at the request of my service centers owner telling me I would like it better than the JBL diaphragm! I didnt like it better!

Since I havent done this with my TAD 4002,s I cant say whether it would or wouldnt please me. What I can tell you is the 2441 is the driver I judge all others by.

Now about that 2450SL, with its aquaplased Ti diaphragm, and neodymium magnet. JBL, in the advertisement of the Alnico magnet of the 1500AL, clearly states that the magnet is the speakers most fundamental component, the very engine of its sound. You tell me they have a Ti phragm that has the Aluminum sound. But its a completely different type of magnet! Are you sure you want to tell me this will sound like a 41? Yes, I am partial to the 41, I admit it! Many others seem to be, too!

I can tell you this, when I had said last year I was taking the 41,s OFF my horns and changing to TAD I got so many Emails from people wanting to buy my 41,s. Really, alot! Thank G_D I didnt sell them! I mean this sincerely.

[Maron Horonzakz]

Yes BUT........Putting the 2450SL diaphram in the 2441 may extend the life of Ti over Al.... And still having the sound that you like. Its just a thought thats crossed my evil mind. But it could work. Aquaplazing Seems to be the butter that makes alot of JBL units sound better even the 1500AL.

[scott fitlin]

can the 2450SL diaphragm be put into the 41 driver without modification?

I believe there was a post last year about this, and while the diaphragm can be fit into the 41 driver, it must be shimmed to have the voice coil properly situated in the magnetic gap.

I would be interested in trying this, but it isnt plug an play, it requires a scope and a skilled person to do it. I could learn myself how to, and theres a possibility of doing exactly this when and if aluminum really is no longer available!

:cool:

[Maron Horonzakz]

About the shim......As it was explained to me buy a authorized JBL repair service dept In St louis. The shim some times is used 0n all drivers that might fall at the extreams of tolerence specs. If you look under diaphram ..At dome of phasing plug..Some times a set of plus + or minus - numbers will be written to give a clue to installer as to how mutch shimming is needed ..Some times the matching numbered diaphram can be provided from the company or proper shims provided. I also read some where on the FORUM where some one used a paper calling card as a shim. A bad trick or a lucky guess but not recommended. Pin alignment is the same.

[scott fitlin]

I would opt to have it done by Eric Wayne of Consolidated Audio in Pompton Lakes, NJ! he is one of the best JBL repair centers in the world, if not the best! His recones and repairs look, feel, and sound like a new driver from the factory! His glue work, shimming and centering are exceptional. You can in fact hear a difference between a recone done by him vs a recone from somewhere else!

[Maron Horonzakz]

Its an art well respected . But finding a good one .... Its like finding a good brain surgen you dont know untill you wake up.

[scott fitlin]

63 replies, 1082 veiws, 5 pages! Keep it comin, this thread is cookin!

[Maron Horonzakz]

If JBL ever dropped the aluminum diaphrams for 2440/2441 that would be a sad sad day. (for them) If they wont support us I wont support them.

[scott fitlin]

It doesnt appear they will, at least not for the time being, so I think we are safe!

:cool:

[paragon]

Yourè all right,
but doen`t forget the forum you wright !
Yes, there are many very good speakermanufactures like JBL.
I like Beyma (best JBL copy`s), RCF (also), 18, ATC, Fostex, Coral,
Focal, Audax, Isophon, Magnat, Ciare, TAD and so on.
All these make very, very good components, some better as JBL.
But we love JBL, or not ??
Yes, i doen`t like many new components JBl make, but the older ones are the best you can get.
Compare to E..V..., Kl.., Bo.. and other. See the difference.

Best regards
Eckhard