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View Full Version : A fine 4645 cabinet came home with me today!



Doc Mark
02-21-2009, 06:03 PM
Greetings, Friends,

Well, as mentioned in the thread regarding 4645's birthday, today, I brought home a very nice JBL 4645 enclosure!! Grumpy very kindly made me a great deal on it, and he, Todd, and I got together today to play around with some sub comparisons, listen to some fun music, and share a fine lunch! Bart (Mech 986) tried to make it, too, but ended up with previous commitments that had to be honored. Good man, he!

We three met up at Grumpy's place, and when Todd and I arrived, Grumpy had already installed a 2245H in one 4645 cabinet, and a 2242H in another, and there they sat, side by side, ready for some comparisons, measurements, and listening tests!! WOW! How much better does it get, eh?! Grumpy had already run some measurements, up close, and at 3 meters (if I recall correctly), and I was very, very surprised at how very close the performance of the 2245H and the 2242H are, in that same cabinet, tuned exactly the same!!! The computer graphs were, virtually, identical! The subs also sounded very, very close, playing the same material and at the same settings. It was very kind of Grumpy to have setup that testing and listening experience, and I really appreciated the chance to compare those two subwoofers, side by side. Even at low volume, both sub systems really added in some basement bass to most of the music we enjoyed. And, yes, we did load up the cannons, in the 1812 Overture, and got to see one of Grumpy's amps, a JBL, clip, just a tiny bit!! :blink::eek: Made me remember the first time I played the digital version of that piece on our L300's. Our "little" 100WPC H/K amp went into protection mode, and clamped down on the volume for about 10-15 seconds!!! Scared the heck out of me!!

In any case, we had a fine time with the listening and testing. When finished, we horsed up the single enclosure I'd bought from Grumpy, and loaded it into my Jeep for it's trip up the snowy mountains to it's new home. Then, we headed to Lucille's BBQ, which was a new place for me. There, we shared some fine BBQ, fun stories about myriad topics, and had an outstanding time! We did miss Bart, and hope he can make it next time, for sure. It's wonderful to have some JBL Friends close enough to get together like that, for food, fun, and friendship!! At Lucille's, we sang happy birthday to Todd, too, as tomorrow is his natal day, if I remember correctly. He's still a youngster, though, compared to some of us old geezers!! ;):D

The day was over all too soon, and I took leave of Grumpy and Todd, and headed up the mountain, back home again. Once in the village, I stopped at the hardware store and bought 8 hex-headed bolts with which to install my 2242H woofer in the 4645 enclosure. Then, I headed a little higher up the mountain, and arrived home again, safe and sound. It took me a little while to get up the courage to undertake horsing that huge subwoofer enclosure up the many stairs, and into the house, but I finally managed it!! Whilst preparing for the task, I took some time to stretch out a bit, by hacking through some ice on our long driveway, and shoveling it off to the side. A few more days like today, which was nice, and we can have an ice-free driveway again!! Yahoo!!

Thanks, again, Dave, for the great enclosure and for setting up the tests and listening opportunity. And, thanks to you and Todd for a fun day!! Take care, Friends, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc (who's 4645 ship has finally come in!!!);):D:applaud::bouncy:

grumpy
02-21-2009, 07:04 PM
Glad you and Todd could make it over...
always a good time watching an 18" driver trying to escape from its frame.

Should have tried stacking two 4645's on each side while there were 4 cabs here.

:D

Thanks for bringing the great recordings too, many of which were
suggested by forum members, IIRC.

BTW, Todd picked up 3 2405's today (which all measured out reasonably well)
so there should be a large collective sigh of relief ;)

JBL 4645
02-21-2009, 07:07 PM
Doc
Nice it’s a nice one in the cinema that’s where it will most likely be heard or felt.
:applaud:

I can’t say I feel comfortable with clipping, makes my skin crawl it does. I’d stick an audio limiter on the end of it with tiny amount of threshold to prevent it going over 0db and into clip.

Or add a slightly large threshold number and then turn up the level it will make softer ones louder while keeping a tight restraint on the larger peaks that will in some cases damage the sub.

Where can I get a good version or hear a good version that isn’t too dull or boring, came across a few on youtube in stereo, but wasn’t impressed at all. I guess there are many versions of the 1812. Including 5.1 mixes!

Are there any possibilities of seeing these graphs.

100watts to think I was crazy enough to run the sub once with Marantz 1050 I have no way of telling if that amp ever went into clip as there isn’t any LED display indicating this. Alesis RA300 bridge mode 300watts doesn’t seem like enough thou its easy to put out a few sine wave tones and hear them in small living room that is 5 meters long.

Was there an graphic equalizer or spectrumlap connected up with the left and right outputs as this would show what lows where present as well as being sent off to the amp and the JBL4645.

JeffW
02-21-2009, 07:17 PM
I hope my 2245's jam as well as the one you guys jammed on today.

That whole deal made quite an impact on the membership here. I know Doc was eyeballing the 4612's I ended up with, and grumpy had his eye on those 2245's. That both of them made out on some swag in the end makes me feel less guilty about scooping it up.

Party on!

grumpy
02-21-2009, 09:22 PM
Hi Ash. No EQ was used, during listening just a JBL M553
using a summed low output, set to 80Hz lowpass, internal 15Hz highpass,
run into a (knowingly too small for digital cannons) bridged 6230, which
should have been good for ~300w. I turned the volume down a small
amount and replayed the old Telarc CD (ca 1979?)... no more clipping.
It was expected. I never really listen at that level. I didn't feel like hauling
out the 6290 :) Spectrum-wise, the cannons should be fairly wideband.

Thanks for the kind words Jeff.

-grumpy

Plot below:
Purple: 2242H/4518 1m, on center
Light Red: 2242H/4518 driver, near-field
Green: 2242H/4518 port, near-field
Red: 2245H/4518 1m, on center
Orange: 2245H/4518 driver, near-field
Blue: 2245H/4518 port, near-field

Much of the 1m measurement is room. No EQ or crossover in place for measurement.
Interesting part is the similarity in response/tuning between drivers. Box tuning is
spec'd at 30Hz with this (3-port) version of 4518 cab (1st gen 4645).

Doc Mark
02-21-2009, 09:49 PM
Evening, Grumpy,

Great stuff, my Friend! Your measurement graphs really show how similar those two woofers are, and our ears pretty much verified that the graphs are right! I'm tickled!! Thanks, again, for setting all that up, and for taking the time to do the measurements and graphs. Both of your systems, the JBLs, and the K-stuff, sounded great to me, and both of them benefited from adding in the 4645 box, with either the 2245H, or the 2242H. Very nice sound, from both systems, Grumpy!

Jeff, thanks for thinking about it that way! It DOES rather make it neat that so many benefited from a single transaction, doesn't it?!! :applaud::D LH, and many of the folks that inhabit it, are sharing folks, and I know that all of us appreciate that! I know that I do, BIG TIME!! Jeff, you say you are from the Texas panhandle, would that be Lubbock, or somewhere thereabouts? I was born and raised in Odessa, not too far from you, and went to Permian HS before moving to CA. I still miss Texas, for many reasons, but I'm a "mountain" man, now, and don't think I could live on the "flat" anymore. :blink:;):D Take care, All, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

P.S. Got out all the goodies for hooking up the sub tonight, but I'm just too tired to do it! Getting old, I guess.... I'll do it after church tomorrow, and can hardly wait to see how it sounds!!

4313B
02-22-2009, 03:55 AM
Interesting part is the similarity in response/tuning between drivers. Box tuning is
spec'd at 30Hz with this (3-port) version of 4518 cab (1st gen 4645).Compare your graphs with these:

Your red vs purple plots are the most interesting.

Doc Mark
02-22-2009, 12:35 PM
Greetings, All,

Though I'm stumbling around with the Ashly crossover, I do want to get the 4645 hooked up and running today, one way, or the other! ;):D

Question: Have any of you placed a large subwoofer behind your equipment cabinets, and if so, how did that work out for you? Any problems? I am, basically, out of room, in our listening environment! :blink: I am planning to place the 4645 behind a screen, which now hides the incomplete 4333's. However, right now, I don't have a place for the 4333's, and so it's best that they remain where they are. At first, I'm just going to leave the 4645 out in the open. But, later, I'm thinking about hiding it behind our stereo cabinet, which does have enough room between it and the wall behind it, to do the trick. What say you, Folks? Good, fair, or poor idea?! Thanks, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

P.S. MANY thanks for Baron030 for his having sent me a veritable TON of information on using the Ashly crossover, quite a while ago!!! Since I'm only going to use it for the sub, right now, and not as a four-way system, I'm still more than a little daunted by hooking it up, even in that limited capacity. But, without the great info you sent, I'd be TOTALLY lost, instead of just a mite confused! ;):blink::D Thanks, again!!

mikebake
02-22-2009, 01:23 PM
I wouldn't recommend it for several reasons.

Doc Mark
02-22-2009, 02:03 PM
Hey, Mike,

Thanks for the recommendation. I would like to learn why you offered that one, in particular, just so I can educate myself to such things. One thought I had is that the sub would be firing directly into amps, a receiver, eq, etc,., and the direct vibrations, so very close, might loosen components in any, or all, of them. Am I right, or just pissing in the wind?! ;):bouncy: Thanks, again, and I look forward to hearing what you have to say. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc (who's now installed the 2242H in my "new" 4645, and can hardly wait to move forward!! Unfortunately, we got few orders today, and so I must shelve plans to continue with the audio stuff, and do some actual work today! Shucks!! Oh, well..... work is what has helped me to earn enough to be able to gather all the nice JBL goodies I know own, so I'll not complain! Talk later, Mike, and thanks, again!

Doc Mark
02-22-2009, 06:30 PM
Evening, All,

Well, it's 6:22 PM and the sub is still not hooked up and running. Lots of work today, plus I decided I really needed to shovel most of the snow off our carport roof today, too. It was still up to my knees, and quite heavy. If we get rain, which it appears we're going to get, and it freezes, then there will be NO getting that heavy snow off the roof, and we risk having the whole thing come down if it gets too heavy. So, I did what I "had" to do, rather than what I wanted to do! :yes: I still have a bit more snow to shovel tomorrow, plus a little more ice in the driveway, down by the street. Then, I'll be all ready for our next series of storms! :blink:;):bouncy:

I also found out that I need a 12 foot connector cable to reach the Crown DC300A amp that's going to power the 4645 cabinet. In it's bridged mode, I believe it will do the trick, especially in our home. But, where the sub sits now, with the amp on top of it, I have no cables that will allow me to hook it all up. Do, tomorrow, I'll take a break from work, and snow/ice shoveling, and head down into the village, where I can score one 12 cable, hopefully. Otherwise, I think I'll all set to go. And also, after reading what Baron030 sent me, and the Ashly manual, and after doing a "stare and compare" on the 4001, I think I've about figured that one out, too. So, tomorrow should be a good day! Plus, Sweet Bride returns home tomorrow, late, from her latest out of State gig! How much better does it get, eh??!! :bouncy::bouncy::banana::banana:

BTW, that 4645 cabinet, with my 2242H installed inside, sure looks WONDERFUL!! I hope it sounds as good as did it's twin, at Grumpy's!! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

mikebake
02-23-2009, 06:00 AM
The effect on the gear is one reason. I also don't want the wave off the front of the driver impacting solid objects that close to it.

JeffW
02-23-2009, 06:45 AM
Jeff, you say you are from the Texas panhandle, would that be Lubbock, or somewhere thereabouts? I was born and raised in Odessa, not too far from you, and went to Permian HS before moving to CA. I still miss Texas, for many reasons, but I'm a "mountain" man, now, and don't think I could live on the "flat" anymore. :blink:;):D Take care, All, and God Bless!



I'm a bit farther north than Lubbock, farther north than Amarillo, in the small town of Pampa. It's flat and you can still shovel snow. :D

grumpy
02-23-2009, 07:00 AM
Compare your graphs with these:Thanks for the re-pop of those plots...
yeah... had those in mind when taking the measurements.
Was a little surprised that the in-room differences appeared smaller
(understanding that these weren't intended as critical measurements).

Mark, as you get more into this last octave thing, you might want to
look into an LF EQ, especially if placement options are limited.
(and lay off the digital cannons :D)

Doc Mark
02-23-2009, 07:15 AM
Hey, Grumpy,

OK, I'll be careful when loading up those digital cannons, and promise to fire them only under close scrutiny and care!! ;):D:bouncy:

When our local Rat Shack opens up this morning, I'll head down to the village to pick up a longer signal cable. Then, I can hook up the works and see how it sounds! I fully expect it to sound "different" than at you place, as we have lots of wood in our home, and no regular carpet, though we do have rugs here and there. Also, our open beam ceiling is also wood, T&G pine, so I am prepared for a different sound than we enjoyed at your home. I played the Boz Scaggs "Dig", and Jennifer Warnes "The Hunter" CD's again last night, and they sound very different than they did at your place. I believe that is because of the differences in surface materials in our homes, and also because I've got the bottom end on the L300's goosed up at 30HZ. In any case, I'm excited to see how everything integrates in our home, and have high hopes that it will be just fine!! Talk to you later, my Friend, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

4313B
02-23-2009, 10:59 AM
Was a little surprised that the in-room differences appeared smaller
(understanding that these weren't intended as critical measurements).Yeah, there's a whole lot going on in the typical room.

One can put a ton of money into really nice gear and end up with less than they bargained for in the end, if only because of the room. I will never forget the guy with the 4355's and gobs of the best Pioneer gear of the era in his 9 x 12 bedroom at his parent's house... I really should have taken pictures of that...

Titanium Dome
02-23-2009, 11:02 AM
Yeah, there's a whole lot going on in the typical room.

One can put a ton of money into really nice gear and end up with less than they bargained for in the end, if only because of the room. I will never forget the guy with the 4355's and gobs of the best Pioneer gear of the time in his bedroom at his parent's house...

:o: :yes: So true.

John
02-23-2009, 10:32 PM
Yeah, there's a whole lot going on in the typical room.

One can put a ton of money into really nice gear and end up with less than they bargained for in the end, if only because of the room. I will never forget the guy with the 4355's and gobs of the best Pioneer gear of the era in his 9 x 12 bedroom at his parent's house... I really should have taken pictures of that...


Like having a pair of headphones on!!!

Allanvh5150
02-24-2009, 12:40 AM
Rooms are very difficult to tame. Especially timber panelling! I had my theatre setup downstairs in a small to moderate room and last weekend I shifted it all into its new location upstairs. I should have waited until I had the wall and ceiling carpet on but I couldnt wait to crank it up along with my new 50" plasma. It sounds very different in a larger room and the additional carpet will kill any reflections. That is this weeks task. I know that I have often talked about this project but I didn't want to post pics untill I was happy with the room.
It is a culmination of three years collecting drivers from Ebay, building cabinets and sifting the website here and bouncing ideas of the guys here. Grumpy helped with L150 dimensions, of which I have four, I bounced ideas of Widget about a center chanel speaker a while back and got a lot of good ideas and have come up with something totaly different using 2 x 2235's, an RCF 12/544 (nearly identical to a 2202 until I can lay my hands on a good one) 2 x Le5's and a 2404.
All in all most of the idea's that came from the guys here were seriously thought about and implemented in some way. I have also used common sense and done many things that are not by the book but things that I thought shoud be correct. I have been very plesantly surprised.

Pics are fourthcomming.:)

Allan.

JBL 4645
02-24-2009, 01:02 AM
I’ve ran a few tests though one with no filters and all three ports open.
Then I blocked one port up, followed by blocking two ports up.

Then I applied some parametric EQ filters and used 1/12 smoothing to view the graph.

There was some issues with possible noise from traffic being picked up by the microphone buses impartially as the engine sounds at around 25Hz 30Hz and its annoying during the daytime.

Filters applied with Behringer BFQ2496 are

26.9Hz -6db Q 0.50
32.8Hz -16db Q 0.33
34.4Hz -12db Q 0.25
36.3 -18db Q 0.25
54.4 -20db Q 0.25
67.7Hz -6db Q 0.50
74.3Hz -20db Q 0.33

I found this to smoother with my Dolby stereo demo DVD-RW disc original Star Trek the Motion Picture 1979.
As the Enterprise, passes by Jupiter, while being accompanied by Jerry Goldsmith, score nice sub bass extension was felt underneath the sofa boom was somewhere else rather than in my ear!

JBL 4645
02-24-2009, 01:10 AM
Thanks for the re-pop of those plots...
yeah... had those in mind when taking the measurements.
Was a little surprised that the in-room differences appeared smaller
(understanding that these weren't intended as critical measurements).

Mark, as you get more into this last octave thing, you might want to
look into an LF EQ, especially if placement options are limited.
(and lay off the digital cannons :D)

Cannons I think the cannons in Master and Commander will suffice. DOWN! ALL HANDS DOWN! :D


Hi Ash. No EQ was used, during listening just a JBL M553
using a summed low output, set to 80Hz lowpass, internal 15Hz highpass,
run into a (knowingly too small for digital cannons) bridged 6230, which
should have been good for ~300w. I turned the volume down a small
amount and replayed the old Telarc CD (ca 1979?)... no more clipping.
It was expected. I never really listen at that level. I didn't feel like hauling
out the 6290 :) Spectrum-wise, the cannons should be fairly wideband.

Thanks for the kind words Jeff.

-grumpy

Plot below:
Purple: 2242H/4518 1m, on center
Light Red: 2242H/4518 driver, near-field
Green: 2242H/4518 port, near-field
Red: 2245H/4518 1m, on center
Orange: 2245H/4518 driver, near-field
Blue: 2245H/4518 port, near-field

Much of the 1m measurement is room. No EQ or crossover in place for measurement.
Interesting part is the similarity in response/tuning between drivers. Box tuning is
spec'd at 30Hz with this (3-port) version of 4518 cab (1st gen 4645).

Is this with frequency sweep like you mentioned tested at 1 meter distance!
JBL 6290 would be too large for the cannons LOL they sounded wicked in the Empire 20 years ago. Wow 20 years. I feel at times the Alesis RA300 is near to running out of steam its held up fairly well over the past 2 years almost. I feel larger one would give me pace of mind with headroom extension.

I wouldn’t have normally tested the sub at 1 meter but thought I’d try it out and after looking at the first graph plotted the fist few with EQ filters applied and ran the sweep again looked at the results and continued until a near I had a near flat response.

The barograph display on the RA300 is hard to tell what output its delivering to the JBL 2240 I know it’s somewhere over 10watts or more, I make sure its kept well away from clip and if should get near I can always switch on the limiter on the Kenwood KRF-X9050D, or just trim the level down.

It’s the LFE.1 on films that tends to suddenly go right to the top and curse bottoming on most and I keep the limiter engaged for Dolby/dts 5.1 or .1 track only.

Amazing Life THX trailer almost peaks at -6db on the barograph display during the first few seconds and caution I use I don’t take any chances with it as that is the kind that will end up damaging sub in. I use a little limiting to tame the LFE.1 on Indiana Jones 2008, and little extra level increase to heighten the softer low tones while keeping a tight restrain on the higher peaks.

If I had more subs then it would be different matter. One can be pushed to far and it will end up bugged like the ABC Bournemouth they pushed that signal JBL 4645 too far and too loud and it didn’t last 10 years before getting damaged.:(

Empire’s original 8 was sonic flawless blast! :bouncy:



Have you ever tried stuffing up any of the two ports and it does tend to lower the output but increase the lower portion with an extra octave.

Can you apply some EQ and so we can see what its like? Or try using the filters I applied thou your room is most likely different from mine maybe better than my room?

4313B
02-24-2009, 07:31 AM
'Can you hear a difference?'.No. JBL really only makes one woofer and one tweeter. Then they make them look different and give them different part numbers to fool the goofballs that have "application specific" burned into their pathetic little brains. It's a ploy.

JBL 4645
02-24-2009, 07:53 AM
This was also in 2ch space, not the HT area, so no Master & Commander here ;)



That’s a pity it sound neat at least you’ve got visual image for reference where with music you don’t unless, unless you can feel the difference at certain musical notes.

Zilch
02-24-2009, 03:21 PM
No. JBL really only makes one woofer and one tweeter. Then they make them look different and give them different part numbers to fool the goofballs that have "application specific" burned into their pathetic little brains. It's a ploy.

HAH!

Just as I suspected. :thmbsup:

[I hope Ian's reading this.... ;) ]

Doc Mark
03-31-2009, 12:43 PM
Greetings, Friends,

Well, good things come to those who wait, and who have patience, no matter how hard won they may end up being! Today, as I was checking out the phase on our L300's for possible problems (see that thread on proper phasing for the 2235H), I FINALLY made time to get my 4645 hooked up, right now via my Crown VFX-2A crossover (until I can figure out the Ashly, and by the way, with a HUGE tip 'o the hat to JBL Brother, Grumpy!). Right now, I'm listening to the 4411's, with the 4645 finally added, and must say that they sound very nice, indeed! The subwoofer, with 2242H installed, crossed at 80HZ, is adding exactly what I was "missing" before, when I first got the 4411's. Neat!

The 2242H sounds pretty good in that 4645 cabinet, and though I'd love to compare it to a 2245H in our listening environment, and hope to do so someday, I'm very pleased with the super solid bottom end the 4645/2242H combo is offering, so far!! I'm enjoying Yo-Yo Ma, and some great bowed cello, at the moment, but soon will began branching out to some deep double bass, pipe organ (thanks, Clark!), and some outstandingly well recorded electronic/synthesized bass (thanks, Heather!), and lots of other great stuff!! I'll report back after a very long listening session, maybe several days, or a week, and let you know what I think of the sub addition. I also will use it with the L300's, to remove that extra bottom end of work for them, and see what that offers. Oh, my.... THIS IS FUN!!! Thanks, again, to Grumpy, for sending that 4645 cabinet to me for such a good price, and for all his help and tips in getting it hooked up properly! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

robertbartsch
03-31-2009, 01:57 PM
So the verdict is that a 2242 sub and a 2245 sub perform similarly?

Doc Mark
03-31-2009, 02:10 PM
Hi, Robert,

Well, I don't know if I can go that far...., yet. But, I did hear them side-by-side, at Grumpy's place, both the 2242H and the 2245H installed in twin 4645 cabinets, both tuned exactly the same, and I must admit that, whilst I did "think" I heard a difference, it was not very great as far as I'm concerned. I seem to remember Grumpy making a similar comment when he, Todd, and I were enjoying the comparison of those two woofer/cabinet combinations.

From others on this forum, I've read that they feel that, in actual listening, the two woofers, each in a proper cabinet, are very close in reproduction and sound. However, if you look at their performance graphs, you can see that there IS a difference, with the 2245H easily appearing to have the edge.

But, to me, it's in the listening, and many times, graphs don't tell the whole story. Same with cabinet tuning. The charts can tell you one thing, your ears may tell you something completely different. Guess that's what makes it all fun.

As for me, I'm going to be listening to the 4645/2242H combination for a good, long while, and see how it sounds with lots of different types of music. I've heard that this combo lacks some musical detail and finesse, which the 4645/2245H offers. That may not be great enough that my ears will hear that, in our actual listening environment. But, I still may try to secure a 2245H for testing, and see what my own ears tell me, right here in our environment.

In any case, I'm extremely happy with the 4411 + 4645/2242H combination, crossed at 80HZ, and I'll continue to play with it and do a little more experimenting to see how my first impressions hold up.

One negative is that my old Crown VFX-2A is just as noisy as I remember it being, and there is a very apparent 60HZ hum in the system now, that was not there before. So, it's either that crossover, or the Crown DC300A that I'm using. I'm betting it will be the crossover. As I get more time, I'll slowly figure out why the Ashly XR4001 didn't work for me, when I tried it first time. With the wonderfully detailed information that Grumpy sent along to me, I'm sure I will eventually see what I did wrong, and get that Ashly up and running. I also have my Audio Control Phase Coupled Activator, which I used to use as a crossover between my sub and sats. It's card is for 120HZ, however, which is too high for my uses.

One way, or the other, I soon hope to get it all straightened out, and get back to a quiet system with no extraneous hums. I also look forward to seeing how the sub sounds with the L300's, at 80HZ, or even 60HZ!! Very nice to have options! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

robertbartsch
03-31-2009, 02:33 PM
Mark:
Could you explain the 80hz crossover? So you are running a 2245 as a sub and the low pass filter is 80hz?

Is this in a HT setup? This is not part of a full range sytem; right?

Anyway, I have two fresh reconed 2245s now and I'm not sure how I will use them.

Doc Mark
03-31-2009, 02:55 PM
Mark:
Could you explain the 80hz crossover? So you are running a 2245 as a sub and the low pass filter is 80hz?

Is this in a HT setup? This is not part of a full range sytem; right?

Anyway, I have two fresh reconed 2245s now and I'm not sure how I will use them.

Hi, Robert,

I'm wanted to get a good sub, in this case something that would work with the 18" woofer I already had, the 2242H, and wanted something about the size of the 4645, or maybe just a tad larger. As the 8 cubic feet of the 4645 is just about perfect for the 2242H, I was happy and blessed when Grumpy offered me one of the 4645 cabinets that he scored a little while back!

I want to use the sub to relieve the L300's of having to reproduce the VLF stuff, and thereby cut down on IM distortion, and let the L300's breathe easier, even though I've loved them without using a sub. I think they will sound even tighter when they don't have to reproduce the VLF stuff. I can say that the 4411's CAME ALIVE when I joined them to that sub!! When I first got them, I was a bit disappointed because they "sounded small", expecially when compared to the L300's. I am happy to report that, in conjunction with the 4645/2242H combination, the 4411's sound tighter, and much "larger" than they previously sounded!! I very much enjoy their detail, and the airy quality to the MF and HF. I think that, combined with a really good subwoofer, these speakers are outstanding!

I look forward to using the sub with our L300's, for the very same reasons, and fully expect to hear the same kinds of results. We'll see what happens when I have time to play with it. Right now, I'm going to leave the 4411's, and the sub hooked up together, and enjoy them for a bit. When I get a chance to play more with the L300's and the sub, I'll report back.

In answer to your question about HT, we really don't have such a system. We listen to movie soundtracks through our stereo system, and so the L300's have really been getting a workout with movies like "Master and Commander", "The Last of the Mohicans", and "Titanic"! They have come through with flying colors, as far as I'm concerned! But, if they can be made to sound even better, with the addition of our new subwoofer, hey, we're all for it! ;) Eventually, we may end up with a JBL HT system, using the L300's, our yet-to-be-finished 4333's, and the 4411's, all supported by the 4645/2242H subwoofer. That, or something like it, should be flat-out amazing!!! But, our front room, whilst fairly large, might not be THAT large that it can support so many large JBL's. So, time will tell how it all turns out. I hope that answers your question, but it not, please take another shot, and I'll take another run at it. Thanks for your interest and have fun with your 2245H's! They are outstanding subwoofers, by all accounts, in the right box, and tuned properly! Well done in scoring them. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

4313B
03-31-2009, 03:03 PM
So the verdict is that a 2242 sub and a 2245 sub perform similarly?Have you read what everyone has posted on this subject over the past 9 years?

Here, let's make it easy for you guys that keep asking the same question twenty times.

The 2242H and 2245H are identical. (Simply ignore the visual, mechanical, electrical and aural differences.)

Doc Mark
03-31-2009, 04:41 PM
Hey, 4313B,

I appreciate your sense of humor on this whole thing, and can also understand how you are probably very tired of explaining the differences between these two transducers, especially after 9 years of it!

In my case, I was simply trying to use the driver I had on hand, and find a box that would allow it to perform up to my expectations. I well may have done just that. Only time, and much more experimentation, will tell the tale. So far, I do very much like how this combination sounds, augmenting the 4411's. I have about 6db of boost at 30HZ and 2-3db of boost at 60HZ, and this seems to help the 2242H "work" in the 4645 cabinet I now own, with the stock tuning of that box.

But, as I wrote, I do believe I heard a difference between the 2245H and the 2242H, both in twin 4645 cabinets, when we listened to them at Grumpy's place. How "much" of a difference I was able to hear, I really cannot say, as our listening tests were far too short to come to too many firm conclusions in that regard. I can say, however, that it didn't "seem" like a huge difference in what we three guys heard, between those two setups, in the short time we had to play with them.

Only further tests and MUCH more listening, to lots of different kinds of music, will really tell the tale, me thinks. Yes, I would love to borrow a 2245H for such testing, and it's very possible that I may be able to do so. I'll check that out, and see. In any case, my original goal, to be able to use the brand new (bought used, but never previously mounted, by the look of it) 2242H, in a subwoofer enclosure, has now come to fruition. Can I recommend to anyone that this combination sounds exactly like the same box with a 2245H in it? Heck no!! But, I do like what I hear, so far, and look forward to more experimentation and more listening.

I KNOW that the 2245H is very probably a better transducer for what I have in mind. I may well end up with one, and then sell, or trade my 2242H. Again, only time will tell. Thanks, as always, for your help, your comments, and your sense of humor in what must surely seem quite hopeless to you, at times!! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

P.S. Miles Davis on the system, right now, and he and his group really sound great!:D

Valentin
03-31-2009, 04:43 PM
The 2242H and 2245H are identical. (Simply ignore the visual, mechanical, electrical and aural differences.)
:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::bs:

4313B
03-31-2009, 06:10 PM
In my case, I was simply trying to use the driver I had on hand, and find a box that would allow it to perform up to my expectations. I well may have done just that.:thmbsup:

boputnam
03-31-2009, 08:38 PM
The 2242H and 2245H are identical. (Simply ignore the visual, mechanical, electrical and aural differences.)Dammit, 4313B, that is hilarious! :bash:

:rotfl:


I KNOW that the 2245H is very probably a better transducer for what I have in mind...Yup, Doc, for an in-home application for old guys like us where the SPL does not get too loud, the 2245H would be the hands-down best choice. But as you can see from grumpy's work, they wil both do the job. Hell - if you've got the 2242H's, you're already in tall cotton...

Doc Mark
03-31-2009, 08:55 PM
Evening, Bo,

Thanks, very much! I have been listening to the 4645/2242H +4411's combo all day long, and into this evening, and so far, I have yet to find any music that doesn't sound great on that setup. I just played two Diana Krall CD's, back to back, and the string bass is reproduced very well by the 4645/2242H. The bass is natural, tight, deep, and resonant, with excellent definition and attack to the plucking of the strings. I don't know how much better a 2245H could do, but if it IS better, than it is some woofer, that's for sure, 'cause the 2242H sounds just fantastic, so far! I would go so far as to say, that if we had found the 4645/2242H + 4411 combination BEFORE we bought our beloved L300's, we very well might have been happy with the sub/sat setup, and not bought the L300's, at all!! And that, my Friend, is saying something special!! With the 4411's cut off at 80HZ, they sound much better than they have since I got them. To me, they had sounded "small", thin, and lifeless before. Now, they are open, full of life, with a much larger sound stage, and really very, very good. In a day, or so, I'll switch back to the L300's, to see if I like them even better, crossed to the 4645/2242H at 80HZ, as I have the 4411's. I'm not going to be surprised if they, too, actually improve with the addition of that subwoofer setup. Thanks, again, Bo, and have a great evening. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc (who wants to listen to the new setup, just a little more, before bedtime!);):D:applaud:

Doc Mark
04-03-2009, 11:20 AM
Morning, Friends,

Today, up here in our mountains, it's foggy, slightly rainy, and a nice 41F. Lovely weather, and a perfect day for a nice hike in the woods. Unfortunately, we don't have time for that, and I'm still getting over the flu. So, we'll stay home and work a bit, then play later this afternoon. I'll get more time to enjoy the sub and sat combinations.

OK, last night, I tried to hook up the Ashly 4-way, once again, and once again, I failed to get a good result. Since I began this journey, Grumpy, and also Baron030, have offered many great tips, to help me setup this Ashly crossover, and I really appreciate their efforts to help make this happen. However, I'm quickly coming to the realization that this 4-way Ashly cannot be made to function as a 2-way crossover, especially in a subwoofer application.

At first, I hooked up the Ashly and got zip. Next, with Grumpy's suggestions, I tried again, and again, got little success. I ended up hooking my old Crown VFX-2A crossover into the system, and it worked very well, albeit much too noisy, with lots of 60HZ hum, for our tastes.

After a few days of enjoying some massive sub bass, combined with the outstanding sound of our 4411's, last night, I tried again to get the Ashly up to speed, using Baron030's suggestions. No luck. I can get the 4411's to sound great, but too much bass getting to them. Or, I can get a really nice subwoofer output, but with no complete range of sound from the 4411's. But, they both will not work together in the manner necessary for good sound. There's always a huge hole in the middle of the sound spectrum.

So, I hooked up my old Audio Control Phase-Coupled Activator, which is setup as a 120HZ crossover. It worked, but I really didn't care for the sound it offered. The bass was tubby and boomy, and the 4411's sounded thin, shrill, and harsh, no matter the settings.

So, I went back to the noisy Crown crossover, and that is once again offering outstanding sound, and a perfectly seamless bonding of subwoofer to satellites. I do hate the loud hum, however, and so would REALLY like to get the Ashly up and running. But, given it's architechture, I am thinking it cannot function as a 2-way subwoofer crossover. Too many differences between the response capabilities of the 4 options for crossover, and the one option for using a subwoofer.

Any more suggestions, please? I'm thinking of shelving the Ashly and getting an XR1001, 2-way version for this project. I'll save the 4-way Ashly for my later experimentation with 4-way systems. I'm bummed that the XR4001 just doesn't seem to want to work as a 2-way, in my application, but guess that's just the way it goes. The seller, George at Full Compass, assured me that it could work as a 2-way, but maybe it will only do that as a regular 2-way crossover, and not at 80HZ. Who knows....

So, that's it for now. I'll keep you updated as to how things progress. Today, I'm planning to hook the L300's into the system, replacing the 4411's, and see how that sounds. When Sweet Bride heard the sub+4411's combination, I asked her which main speakers were playing, the L300's or the 4411's? She picked the L300's, after carefully listening to the sound of the songs I played, even though the 4411's were the ones working with the 4645!! That speaks very highly of the benefit of having added the sub to our system, Friends, as she didn't care for the 4411's before (nor, did I), without the sub added, and dearly loved the L300's, as do I!!! Either way, it's very, very nice that she supports me in this hobby, and that she loves music, and values a fine sound system, just as much as do I!!! Thank you, Lord, for bringing me such a wonderful gift as my Wife!! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

robertbartsch
04-03-2009, 12:30 PM
Well, I have a single copy of a 2242 and a pair of 2245s. If I remember correctly, the 2242 has a vented motor structure and is rated to take 600 watts of power and the 2245s are not vented and are not rated as high; right? I thought the frequency responses were a tad different too but I could be wrong. So these two different (??) woofers probably have different voice coils, cones and motors; right?

Anyway, I'm not "hear" (no pun) to beat a dead horse.

I believe, my query about the HT application in question is relavent since, at least to me, there is some confusion about how it is being used.

In a HT system there is a dedicated sound track (channel) that receives only ULF material. If a 2245 or 2242 it is not used in a dedicated ULF channel application, I assume in a home setting it is receiving a signal from an original "full range" source, in which case, I would expect it to require a low pass or other passive crossover network; right?

In the few dedicated subs that I have run in HTs so far, I have used plate amps and they do have controls for low frequencies; I beleive these are passive, but I could be wrong. I assumed these controls are provided to compensate for room accustics.

Anyway, if I built a deductated sub and ran it from a HT ULF channel, I assume I could do this without frequency compensation and without a passive crossover assuming the source material is only ULF and the woofer and box are rated to handle these frequencies; right?

Doc Mark
04-03-2009, 07:13 PM
Good Evening, All,

I'm going to post a note I wrote to Bo and Grumpy, detailing how all this finally turned out. Using information each sent my way, I finally figured this all out! Here's my email to them:

"Good Evening, Bo and Dave,

I want to thank you both, VERY much, for your suggestions and input in helping me hook up that Ashly XR4001 to the sub and satellite speakers!! I have FINALLY succeeded, and it's with thanks to you both that it all came to pass!

First, Grumpy, you were right in your second attempt to get this done. There were a few small pieces of the puzzle which did not fall together for me, though, and even though I had it hooked up properly, it didn't sound right to me.

Bo, your suggestions were right on, with only one small deviation. This particular Ashly unit does not have a "Mid" output, and instead offers a "Low-Mid/Hi-Mid" output, which is actually what Dave had suggested. When I finally got it back into that configuration, I used a bit of info that you had included, regarding using the output levels to balance the levels going to the sub and satellite speakers, in this case the 4411's. THAT turned out to be the missing piece of the puzzle, Guys!!

Back when I had it hooked up the way Dave had suggested the second time, I noted VERY weak VLF levels coming out of the 4645/2242H sub. Since the Crown unit, hooked up properly, had THUNDEROUS bass out of the same unit, with the same settings, I figured that something was wrong. Yes, indeed, something WAS wrong! When I cranked up the LF output level, almost to max, all of a sudden, I had some decent bass!! YAHOO!!

Right now, we're listening to Yo-Yo Ma and Friends, and it sounds very good, indeed. I do note a few differences between the sound as it was hooked up to the Crown VFX2A and the Ashly XR4001. For one, there is a bit less "slam" to the bass in the subwoofer. I can get used to that. The other difference is that the Ashly seems to make the VHF just a tad more shrill than does the Crown. Why? I have NO idea. But, I think that all this can be adjusted one way, or the other.

I have to say one other thing, and that is that my 60HZ hum is STILL in our system, even with the Ashly hooked up. Hummmmm.... This surprises me a great deal, as I'd always thought the Crown crossover was the culprit. But, it's still there with the Ashly. Though not "quite" as loud, it is still too loud for both Cynthia and I and it would be great to find the cause and remove it. I will check our wall plugs for a grounding problem, and also see if any of the cables I've added might be inducing the hum, or picking it up.

Thanks, again, you Guys, for the great help and suggestions. Using information from you both, I was able to finally see what I was doing wrong, and as you both probably already figured, it was "Operator Error"!! I'll post this basic note on LH, so the other folks can see the results of your fine info. Thanks, Bo and Dave, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Mark"

So, that's the end result, and I doubt that I would have had such success without the special suggestions offered by Bo and Grumpy! Thanks, again, Guys, for taking the time to help suss this out for me. MUCH appreciated, and tonight Sweet Bride and I are going to watch one of the Star Wars series movies, and see how it all sounds with the Ashly regulating the 4645/2242H sub, and the 4411's. Tomorrow, I'll swap back to our L300's, and see how they sound with the sub. We're both loving this!! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

sekess
04-08-2009, 02:49 AM
Hey Doc,
I don't know if this is your situation or if this will help you or not. But, I had a similar annoying hum that developed once and it turned out to be my DC300A. I found that the DC offset had drifted over time. There are some pots inside the amp. I adjusted those guys so as to get the lowest offset possible and as luck would have it -- dead quiet again.

Again, I don't know if this is your problem. But, you may want to take a look at that.

Good Luck,
Steve

Doc Mark
04-08-2009, 08:54 AM
Hey, Steve,

Many thanks for that suggestion! I've never messed with the DC offset adjustment on any of my Crown amps, and they very well may be in need of such care. As it stands, right now, I finally gave up, for the time being, as I have too many other things that need my time. We've removed the crossovers, amps, and sub from the system, and have gone back to just the L300s. Sounds fantastic, as usual! ;):D I do note, however, that my hum is still there, just at such a low level that I never noticed it before. That tells me that, if the Crown needs adjustment, it's problem now is only exacerbating a grounding problem that already exists in our current setup. Interesting, eh?!!

Bo, Grumpy, and Baron030, have offered some great clues to helping me track down my errant grounding problems, and when I have time, I will do as they have suggested, removing everything from the system, and beginning at the speakers and amps, work backwards to add things in, until I find the hum problem. That will take a few hours of time, which I don't have right now. Bo suspects the preamp, and he may well be right. I'll post a note here when I have time to work more on this. Until then, we'll enjoy the L300s and count our many blessings! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

sekess
04-08-2009, 09:43 AM
Hey Doc,

To check if you have DC offset takes 2 seconds. But, you need a voltmeter that will measure millivolts (.001volts). Just remove the inputs and outputs from the amp. I forget if the volume knobs hould be all the way off or all the way on. But, I would just have them in the position that you usually listen to the amp at (I assume all the way on). Place one voltmeter lead on the positive output of the amp and the other lead on the negative of the amp. This will give you your DC offset voltage reading. I forget what the exact spec is. But, I think the DC300 should be pretty low -- like .01 volts (or something close to that. I don't think it should be above .05 volts.
Anyway, it's a very quick measurement and if it's good, you've just eliminated this issue as the culprit. If it's out of spec, it has to be adjusted. This too is pretty simple. But, you have to know which pots to adjust on the circuit board. So, that you will probably a little help with.

Good Luck,
Steve

Doc Mark
04-08-2009, 09:45 AM
Hey, Steve,

Thanks, very much! I'll dig into the Crown manual and see if they offer any info on how to do it, and what the specs should be. Much appreciated. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc