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caladois
02-19-2009, 12:33 PM
Today I saw on the web some review announcing the last K2 project : S9900

In fact, it looks like a K2 S9800 mounted with the 476be driver. The horn remind me the Everest design.

I would appreciate more details.

Titanium Dome
02-19-2009, 12:43 PM
Mon ami, voulez-vous dire ceci?

Titanium Dome
02-19-2009, 12:47 PM
Excellent photos here:

http://www.phileweb.com/news/audio/image.php?id=8733&row=0

Titanium Dome
02-19-2009, 12:48 PM
Here's a teaser:

Titanium Dome
02-19-2009, 12:50 PM
1500AL-1

476Mg

045Be-1

speakerdave
02-19-2009, 12:51 PM
Nice. If what has been said is true, that, and a good subwoofer, might even be preferable to the Eversest II, although I would think there is a somewhat raised crossover frequency.

Titanium Dome
02-19-2009, 12:53 PM
Cool slides at this site that ends with this:

(Be sure to look at all three slides.)

http://av.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/20090217/jbl.htm

Mr. Widget
02-19-2009, 01:05 PM
Nice. If what has been said is true, that, and a good subwoofer, might even be preferable to the Eversest II, although I would think there is a somewhat raised crossover frequency.Quite possibly in some rooms... I had a sneak peek at them a few months ago... these pics look more diminutive than the speaker appears in person. They are quite shallow, but are wider than you might imagine. All and all a heck of a step forward from the 9800.


Widget

caladois
02-19-2009, 01:06 PM
The material used for the horn driver is no more Be but Magnesium ?

Mr. Widget
02-19-2009, 01:10 PM
The material used for the horn driver is no more Be but Magnesium ?Yep. :(

Better than aluminum or titanium, but not quite the same as Be. You can see evidence of the lower break-up mode in this pic.


Widget

4313B
02-19-2009, 04:25 PM
It makes more sense for a 3-way though. The 476Be is arguably overkill for a 3-way.


a good subwooferA pair of W1500H's. :yes:

Hoerninger
02-19-2009, 11:42 PM
Somewhere there might be a White Paper:
http://dyna5555.cocolog-nifty.com/5555blog/2009/02/no283-563f.html
(http://dyna5555.cocolog-nifty.com/5555blog/)

Titanium Dome
02-20-2009, 08:36 AM
US price equivalent of $44,650 per pair.

http://www.bornrich.org/entry/jbl-lines-up-project-k2-s9900-floorstanding-speaker-system/

4313B
02-20-2009, 08:52 AM
US price equivalent of $44,650 per pair.Yeah, I suspect the old timers will simply stick with the 136H, 376/HL89, 077

Honestly though, the K2-S9900 is a whole different arena.

timc
02-20-2009, 10:00 AM
Very nice looking. How do you think it compares to the S9800? Have they managed to make the Mg driver sound as good as the previous 435Be?


-Tim

Doc Mark
02-20-2009, 10:08 AM
Yeah, I suspect the old timers will simply stick with the 136H, 376/HL89, 077

Honestly though, the K2-S9900 is a whole different arena.

Hey, 4313B,

As much as I'd dearly LOVE to own something like this, I have to agree with you. For me, and very probably for most other folks, $44,650 is more than a little hard to gather together, much less spend on a pair of speakers, wonderful though they may be! :blink:;) To me, the funny thing about "making do" with the Vintage JBL stuff, is that it still smokes most of the other stuff that's available for sale out there, these days, and by a huge margin! I am very happy to know that JBL continues to advance the SOTA in speaker design and performance. But, I'm even more happy that even their older systems continue to outperform most other offerings today! I am blessed to have a few of those systems, now, and am very grateful that they came my way! Still, it would be wonderful to hear the differences between the JBL's with which we all "make do", and the newest JBL designs. Doubt that it will ever happen, though, as much as I might want it to take place. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

Mr. Widget
02-20-2009, 10:09 AM
How do you think it compares to the S9800?I haven't heard it, but I am sure they feel it is better in every way... why else would they introduce it?


Have they managed to make the Mg driver sound as good as the previous 435Be?I'd be surprised if it didn't sound more effortless. Size does matter. :)


Widget

Titanium Dome
02-20-2009, 10:54 AM
Yeah, I suspect the old timers will simply stick with the 136H, 376/HL89, 077

Honestly though, the K2-S9900 is a whole different arena.

It looks more "home-friendly" than the DD66000, at least for average-sized homes. The S9900 is something I might actually be able to put in my house. It's a really beautiful adaptation of the basic Everest design. (It makes my Synthesis® stuff look postively stodgy. :o: )

Now I can resist the call of the K2 S9800 in anticipation of the gorgeous S9900. (Well, unless some S9800s come on the market at blow out prices.)

Mr. Widget
02-20-2009, 11:23 AM
It's a really beautiful adaptation of the basic Everest design. (It makes my Synthesis® stuff look postively stodgy. :o: )Synthesis: Meant to be heard (and felt) and not seen. :applaud:



(Well, unless some S9800s come on the market at blow out prices.)You are such a JBL slut.:p


Widget

caladois
02-20-2009, 11:41 AM
More K2 s9800 on second hand market. What a good news:applaud:

Titanium Dome
02-20-2009, 12:03 PM
Synthesis: Meant to be heard (and felt) and not seen. :applaud:

You are such a JBL slut.:p


Widget

I was thinking as I wrote that, At least my lights will be off when I'm listening to the Synthesis@. Sort of like the high school paper bag joke, I guess.

Yes, I am a JBL slut. I wish that were my only self control problem. :rotfl:

timc
02-20-2009, 12:10 PM
Yes, I am a JBL slut. I wish that were my only self control problem. :rotfl:


That's just about as much as i can take..............

:o:

When will the S9900 be avaiable?


-Tim

polar_bear_0104
02-20-2009, 12:19 PM
BEAUTIFUL!

need to rush to the lotto joint and put my bet on that 48 million pot tomorrow, one of the biggest in canada's history...and if i win, i'll make sure everyone in this thread until this post get a brand new spankin pair!:applaud::):bouncy:

Titanium Dome
02-20-2009, 12:26 PM
Bless you Polar Bear. I'll stack some stones for your (our) good fortune.

4313B
02-20-2009, 12:31 PM
Synthesis: Meant to be heard (and felt) and not seen. :applaud:Realistically, very few loudspeakers should be seen, and the ones that should be seen belong in a museum with the rest of the art fixtures.

When will the S9900 be avaiable?When you have your people call their people with your verified credit card number or certified bank draft.

Titanium Dome
02-20-2009, 08:55 PM
K2 S9900 for all.

Valentin
02-23-2009, 07:38 AM
very nice ti dom

seems its bass has been a little returned a little deeper and very extended

that must be very natural and agile Bass

i wonder if Mg will be the new titanium for JBL

i now probably titanium has better stress properties so jblpro will keep on using it

we shall wait for the 25th to see the official launching and white papers

Doc Mark
02-23-2009, 10:28 AM
I disagree. The latest systems are "light years" better in every sense of the word so if you're definitely looking to spoil what you already listen to feel free to seek out the latest offerings. I really can't recommend doing so to anyone unless they have the requisite cash.

Yes, I know that several posts on the Internet malign JBL's latest offerings but, frankly, they're full of shit. :barf:

Hey, 4313B,

Sounds to me that you don't disagree, at all, actually. ;) I said it would be very nice to hear the differences, and it would. I never said there WEREN'T any differences. Of course, I would fully expect the newest and best JBL stuff to blow away what I, and most other JBL owners, hold near and dear! Why on earth would I NOT expect that to happen?? ;) I'd dearly love to hear just how much better they are. But, as for springing almost $45,000 to actually purchase a pair, I, for one, simply cannot afford to do so, even if I wanted to do so. I would imagine that most other JBL lovers are in the same boat, maybe including yourself, Sir! ;)

Time marches on, improvements are made, specifications and performance get better. Sometimes you can afford the best, sometimes you can't. That does nothing to change the fact that most of the old JBL stuff still smokes a good deal of what passes for stereo speakers on the mass market today, wouldn't you agree? Sure, there will always be the best and brightest offerings. But, how many folks even get to KNOW about such things, much less find them to purchase? Not many can afford the best, especially at today's prices. Inflation not withstanding, $45,000 is still WAY out of reach for most of us.

I believe that you and I are on the same page, basically. Semantics might be different, but we both understand our JBL peas from our JBL carrots, me thinks! ;):D Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

Andyoz
02-23-2009, 10:30 AM
As a sideline, has JBL ever thought about going active with these big systems. I assume it would never happen as their target market already has amps and other fancy bits of "bling" to use.

My dream system would be something like a pair of 4338's with a triplet of amp packs in each box :D. How much better would the bottom end of the S9900's be without the passive x-over sucking power and damping factor away from the driver.

Valentin
02-23-2009, 10:52 AM
the K2 S9900 are biampble so if you wish it is posible

Ian Mackenzie
02-23-2009, 04:44 PM
I agree with 4313B in that from my own direct auditioning of the Everest and K series in Japan they are different from the legacy gear and the contemporary Blue monitor ranges based on legacy Trad JBLs.

They are engineered as an SOA systems to compete with the very best Hifi audiophile loudspeakers available.

I think JBL recognises the demand in that market and this model will slot in nicely.

JBL also caters for the long term brand loyal followers with the Blue monitor series who grew up with legacy products. There is also the new LS series for those where space is at a premium and want a contemporary Hifi sound on a less ambitious scale than the Everest or K series.

You really have to hear them go to fully appreciate the distinction but the JBL Japan brochure posted over in the reference area goes some way towards conveying what these fabulous loudspeakers can do for your ears.:)

BMWCCA
02-24-2009, 08:30 AM
Twenty-five years from now 4313B will be telling us how much better the latest JBL-HK 1.1 holographic two-pound speaker systems are than the long-forgotten K2 series. but they'll only be available in China. Seawolf will be finding DD66000s at the Portland Goodwill. Rick Riessen will be offering a run of K2 clones. Zilch will be finding K2s in dumpsters and cutting them up to install Parts Express carbon-fibre wave guides to improve them. GT will have submitted an improved Intel-chip K2 network design that can be made from recycled personal communicators. Ian will still be trying to explain how they should be wired. And I'll be trying to pay $200 for a pair of K2-S9900s in some world-currency backed by CitiBanc of Antigua.

That's assuming heart-valve technology has kept pace with the advancement in the use of precious metals in compression drivers.

:)

Titanium Dome
02-24-2009, 08:32 AM
K2-S9900 (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=24086)

Let me know if there is any demand for the English language version.

Um, since my Japanese is non-existent, the English version would be appreciated. Thanks.

Titanium Dome
02-24-2009, 08:36 AM
Twenty-five years from now 4313B will be telling us how much better the latest JBL-HK 1.1 holographic two-pound speaker systems are than the long-forgotten K2 series. but they'll only be available in China. Seawolf will be finding DD66000s at the Portland Goodwill. Rick Riessen will be offering a run of K2 clones. Zilch will be finding K2s in dumpsters and cutting them up to install Parts Express carbon-fibre wave guides to improve them. GT will have submitted an improved Intel-chip K2 network design that can be made from recycled personal communicators. Ian will still be trying to explain how they should be wired. And I'll be trying to pay $200 for a pair of K2-S9900s in some world-currency backed by CitiBanc of Antigua.

That's assuming heart-valve technology has kept pace with the advancement in the use of precious metals in compression drivers.

:)

And I'll finally have a pair of Everest DD77000s inside the 20 year old jumbo RV that I'm living in. ;)

4313B
02-24-2009, 09:37 AM
The documents I posted should answer any pertinent questions posed in this thread so far.

K2-S9900 (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=24086)


All and all a heck of a step forward from the 9800.Agreed.

Titanium Dome
02-24-2009, 10:30 AM
The documents I posted should answer any pertinent questions posed in this thread so far.

K2-S9900 (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=24086)

Agreed.

Thanks.

Titanium Dome
02-24-2009, 02:05 PM
The graph that accompanies the statement below is quite impressive. The improved 1500AL-1 isn't just a cosmetic upgrade like some -1 drivers. There are real meat and potatoes changes.

The 476Mg is an amazing piece of work. I'm now really excited about hearing it in action. Tomorrow is the big unveiling in many parts of the world. Is it in the US as well?

4313B
02-24-2009, 02:23 PM
The improved 1500AL-1 isn't just a cosmetic upgrade like some -1 drivers. There are real meat and potatoes changes.True. The 1500AL-1 is an 8 ohm version of the 12 ohm 1501AL used in the Everest II. Both handle more power than the original 8 ohm 1500AL, which kept blowing up in high power Studio applications.

spkrman57
02-24-2009, 02:33 PM
How many watts were they trying to feed to the speaker system that would blow them up?

Probably not a problem with normal home use I'm sure!

Regards, Ron


True. The 1500AL-1 is an 8 ohm version of the 12 ohm 1501AL used in the Everest II. Both handle more power than the original 8 ohm 1500AL, which kept blowing up in high power Studio applications.

Valentin
02-24-2009, 02:42 PM
True. The 1500AL-1 is an 8 ohm version of the 12 ohm 1501AL used in the Everest II. Both handle more power than the original 8 ohm 1500AL, which kept blowing up in high power Studio applications.


Sow JBLPRO is finally cooking something big for studios


that would be just great the icing in the cake

pos
02-24-2009, 03:21 PM
The documents I posted should answer any pertinent questions posed in this thread so far.

K2-S9900 (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=24086)

thanks a lot !! :applaud:


EDIT: It seems like the 476Mg marks the return of the diamond surround!

spkrman57
02-24-2009, 04:01 PM
I guess the 1501AL-1 must be substantially greater.

Ron

Hoerninger
02-28-2009, 05:14 AM
:) Just for the pleasure in your eyes:

villastrangiato
02-28-2009, 06:51 AM
As a sideline, has JBL ever thought about going active with these big systems. I assume it would never happen as their target market already has amps and other fancy bits of "bling" to use.

My dream system would be something like a pair of 4338's with a triplet of amp packs in each box :D. How much better would the bottom end of the S9900's be without the passive x-over sucking power and damping factor away from the driver.


I agree completely. For twenty plus thousand dollars, one would expect some active features. It's not like the technology doesn't exist. Hell, backyard hackers can buy cheapy dedicated Zetex Class D feedback amps to take the bass driver's natural limitations and offset them. You don't even have to get fancy with servo drive accelerometers or optical sensors like Velodyne - just simple, elegant current sensing feedback does wonders all by itself. I've wondered for years why anyone would want to spend 15 to 20K for a pair of K2's when bass response is -10db at 35hz - I think Audio magazine measured the L250 more than a decade ago as performing better than that in the bottom end! The 1500 driver is probably set up with less compliance to achieve greater linearity at high outputs. Anyways, for some of us - newer is not always better. Although the Be drivers do look like a major advancement in dynamic capabilities - on paper at least. I'm sure I'll never know - the nearest pair of K2's is probably 500 miles from where I live.:(

timc
02-28-2009, 07:14 AM
The -10db point is measured anechoic. And anyway, how much info is there below 30Hz on normal music.

I have listened to the Ti240 wich uses the same woofer as the 250. I have also listened quite a bit to the K2 S9800. Not much of a competition to be honest. The K2's is lightyears ahead.



-Tim

Hoerninger
02-28-2009, 07:46 AM
For twenty plus thousand dollars, one would expect some active features.
In a posting by 4313B ahead of yours cited there is a link to a white paper (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=242144&postcount=35) "which should answer any pertinent questions posed in this thread ...". (Appropriate frequency response below.)

I've wondered for years why anyone would want to spend 15 to 20K for a pair of K2's when bass response is -10db at 35hz. For music in normal rooms this is sufficient. If you want a home cinama for earth shaking lows you should go with several subs for a better performance - it is quite another shoe.

Although the Be drivers do look like a major advancement in dynamic capabilities - on paper at least. Not only this but in resolution and clarity too.
____________
Peter

villastrangiato
02-28-2009, 08:39 AM
The techbot graphs for the 250 and K2 look pretty darn close - both losing about 10db at roughly 35hz. For JBL's flagship though, I would expect performance that is at least equal to - not inferior to competing products.

Case in point: Velodyne DD18. Now before you start, don't give me a line about this being a sub and not a fair comparison. There are a number of other companies that produce full range flagships that dont need a sub - Wilson Audio comes to mind.

Seriously, who was Velodyne 50 years ago? This is J freakin' BL we're talking about. If Velodyne can come up with a sub that provides accurate response from 14-120hz with about .5% distortion - why can't JBL show them how to build a unit that not only matches its performance but provides the durability and reliability JBL is famous for - something most of the Velodyne owners I've known have complained about? And if your spending 20-25 thousand for a system - shouldn't it be part of the system not an add-on option?
And to someone else who previously posted, low bass performance does matter and YES, there is a lot of important musical information down at that frequency. I run a Crown Macro Tech 2400 with my 250ti's and you have to be very careful on many recordings, hell not even recordings - my Kenwood L07T MII produces enough FM low bass energy from overblown hiphop stations to send the LE14H-1's into orbit at roughly half gain setting on the Macro Tech and half gain setting on the PSL-2 preamp. For people that want to exploit the full dynamic range of modern technology and performances like that on my Telarc 1812 Overture disc, you can never have enough dynamic low bass output capability. I'm not saying the K2 can't handle the famous Telarc cannon shots or for that matter, some overblown hiphop crap on FM - but given the specs, I'm a little disappointed JBL didn't decide it was worthwhile showing the likes of Velodyne and its followers what the folks in Northridge are fully capable of.

Hoerninger
02-28-2009, 09:00 AM
- why can't JBL show them how to build a unit that not only matches its performance but provides the durability and reliability JBL is famous for -
Although I know nothing from JBLs marketing department, I would say the S9900 is not the "jack of all trades devices".

The discussion about bass is not new here, look for the DD66000 - but it sells.
____________
Peter

Valentin
02-28-2009, 09:03 AM
i think you dont get it

jbl measurements are anechoic in room gain will give you at least f3 30hz in room

and it you see the cut off continues steady so thy do go low

this gives you natural and agile bass no boominess if you want more bass for movies or for party ad a specialized product

if you have 46000 for the 2 th best 30hz to 50000 hz speaker i guess you have the cash to buy a nice subs like the array1500 or the 2242h based drivers and or a eq

if you have a speaker that is flat to 20hz in anechoic condition your going to limit the use of this speaker to only very well treated rooms like studios subs are a good way of adjusting this since you have a volume control

4313B
02-28-2009, 09:09 AM
The techbot graphs for the 250 and K2 look pretty darn close - both losing about 10db at roughly 35hz. For JBL's flagship though, I would expect performance that is at least equal to - not inferior to competing products. The old LE14H-1 in the 250Ti has just about the best LF extension of any JBL loudspeaker ever produced. As Greg has mentioned several times - "It damn near goes to DC."

That said, the 1500AL and 1501AL are superior in overall performance to the LE14H-1 or LE14H-3. And they should be for the amount of engineering that went into them.

The 1500AL-1 in the K2-S9900 is tuned a bit higher (and the box is a bit smaller in effective volume) than the 1500AL in the K2-S9800 so it doesn't have quite the LF extension. Both systems meet the design requirements regardless of what the guys who hear with their eyes publicly post. We went through this same scenario with people whining about the Everest II. They couldn't get past the F3 spec. Whatever. They wouldn't have the money to purchase the Everest II anyway so it is a moot point. The Everest II, and the K2-S9900, sell to exactly the people they are supposed to sell to and at the end of the day that is all that matters. :)

These aren't high volume sellers. These are TOTL High Performance loudspeakers targeted at a market that is head over heels in love with them and I think it's fantastic because they are really nice loudspeakers! :yes:

if you have a speaker that is flat to 20hz in anechoic condition your going to limit the use of this speaker to only very well treated rooms like studios subs are a good way of adjusting this since you have a volume controlGood point and Greg seems quite fond of the banana curve response these days (for the last fifteen years or so). It seems to work really well with a variety of rooms.

this gives you natural and agile bass no boominess if you want more bass for movies or for party ad a specialized product:yes:

villastrangiato
02-28-2009, 09:39 AM
i think you dont get it

jbl measurements are anechoic in room gain will give you at least f3 30hz in room

and it you see the cut off continues steady so thy do go low

this gives you natural and agile bass no boominess if you want more bass for movies or for party ad a specialized product

if you have 46000 for the 2 th best 30hz to 50000 hz speaker i guess you have the cash to buy a nice subs like the array1500 or the 2242h based drivers and or a eq

if you have a speaker that is flat to 20hz in anechoic condition your going to limit the use of this speaker to only very well treated rooms like studios subs are a good way of adjusting this since you have a volume control

I'm aware of the room response issue. Perhaps it is you who are not "getting it". Read here:

http://www.stereophile.com/subwoofers/604velodyne/index2.html

note the frequency response and distortion spec
also note the the amplifier's dynamic output capability (3000watts)

For a more in-depth education about servo woofer technology, I suggest you read up further about Velodyne (servo woofer pioneer), TC Sounds, and Audiopulse to name a few. This technology has been around for a while and is here to stay. The fact that JBL is not jumping on it - stamping its own know-how and muscle on this part of the industry is a bit of a mystery to me. Since Velodyne introduced the first servo feedback controlled woofer, there have been a number of other manufacturers that have followed suit - most of which have produced high performing products.

As we all know, the full range of human hearing extends from 20hz to 20khz (if you're young and in good health;)) . The goal of any top speaker producer should be to make a product that does not limit reproduction in that range - PERIOD. Beyond that range who other than your dog really cares? The K2 just doesn't meet this bar. Should it? That's certainly debateable. Given JBL's history, I should hope most people on here would think its a worthwhile endeavor - particularly if others - like Velodyne are already doing it.

As for subs just being a tool to adjust room response anomalies - I beg to differ. In fact, my LE14H-1's would beg to differ. The amp I'm running with them in my opinion is not terribly oversized (520wpc, 8 ohms, .05%3rd harmonic from 20-20K) Yet there have been many, many times I've had to back way off of gain to keep the woofer voice coils from hitting the back plates. Generally, before that happens, there are plenty of other signs of distress (unstable cone oscillation/overexcursion/audible breakup) - but the real concern I've had and it has happened a few times in the past 15 years, is when the voice coil hammers the back plate. Should this happen with a flagship JBL speaker that was designed to handle 400W continuous sine wave (presumably around 1khz which is basically a useless spec) - in my opinion - no. But as I have an engineering background - I understand the competing goals of efficiency/sensitivity (low signal compression), low distortion, wide bandwidth, and high power handling capability. The point is, accurate powerful low bass reproduction is and should be a design goal for any manufacturer's flagship speaker. For the price many flagship speakers are selling at these days - it should not be an optional or added cost feature. It should be a significant part of the design effort and ultimately - the package that's presented.

Titanium Dome
02-28-2009, 09:39 AM
The folks at Northridge are showing exactly what needs to be shown at the so-called high end.

They not only have the best testing facilities on the continent and perhaps the world, but they have the engineering and design chops to do anything that the competition is doing, including copying it and beating it at its game, if that were actually worth doing.

Instead, they are innovating. Think about that word. Roll it around in your head. Examine its nuances.

There's no need for JBL to reinvent SVS or Velodyne testosterone engineering and technology. Those who need that kind of thing buy it; those who do not need it don't buy it.

Northridge also has an extensive and state-of-the-art listening and evaluation process that involves lots of human ears. The results of this testing is the acid test. Specs are one thing; sound is another. If it specs well but sounds wrong, the specs do not matter.

Over the past several years, JBL has produced some solid winners, including the Project Arrays, SAM units, Everest II, and now the K2 S99000. For the direct driver crowd there's the Performance Series.

All the second-guessing in the world won't change the fact that the K2 S99000 is another remarkable achievement and that it was designed from a tradition of beautiful execution and magnificent sound infused with technological innovation.

porschedpm
02-28-2009, 04:54 PM
Like arguing one motorcycle is "better" than another because its published top speed is higher. Specs don't tell the whole story especially when they're looked at in isolation of others. Oftentimes it's the sum of the individual components that makes the whole so good regardless of the individual specs. Like tube amps and vinyl. Better is a subjective thing. Until you place your ass in the saddle and do test drive for yourself, you're only getting part of the picture.

JBLnsince1959
03-01-2009, 06:45 PM
Instead, they are innovating. Think about that word. Roll it around in your head. Examine its nuances.

.
:applaud:

spkrman57
03-02-2009, 05:50 PM
I can't believe you are a engineer and still running drivers into the ground!:blink:

The LE-14's are a hell of a driver that do just what they are supposed to do. :D

But they were not meant for concert level reproduction!:banghead:

It sounds like you would not be happy with any audio speakers on the planet from what I'm reading!:biting:

Ron


[quote=villastrangiato;242712]

In fact, my LE14H-1's would beg to differ. The amp I'm running with them in my opinion is not terribly oversized (520wpc, 8 ohms, .05%3rd harmonic from 20-20K) Yet there have been many, many times I've had to back way off of gain to keep the woofer voice coils from hitting the back plates. Generally, before that happens, there are plenty of other signs of distress (unstable cone oscillation/overexcursion/audible breakup) - but the real concern I've had and it has happened a few times in the past 15 years, is when the voice coil hammers the back plate.


quote]

hjames
03-02-2009, 06:45 PM
My guess is this is a dead thread, for all intents and porposes -
I see you cannot send a PM to Villastrangiato -
and he doesn't show in the Members listing - perhaps
banned??
- - he may be dead to us, Jim ...



I can't believe you are a engineer and still running drivers into the ground!:blink:
It sounds like you would not be happy with any audio speakers on the planet from what I'm reading!:biting:

Ron





In fact, my LE14H-1's would beg to differ. The amp I'm running with them in my opinion is not terribly oversized (520wpc, 8 ohms, .05%3rd harmonic from 20-20K) Yet there have been many, many times I've had to back way off of gain to keep the woofer voice coils from hitting the back plates. Generally, before that happens, there are plenty of other signs of distress (unstable cone oscillation/overexcursion/audible breakup) - but the real concern I've had and it has happened a few times in the past 15 years, is when the voice coil hammers the back plate.

Triumph Don
03-02-2009, 08:34 PM
Like arguing one motorcycle is "better" than another because its published top speed is higher. Specs don't tell the whole story especially when they're looked at in isolation of others. Oftentimes it's the sum of the individual components that makes the whole so good regardless of the individual specs. Like tube amps and vinyl. Better is a subjective thing. Until you place your ass in the saddle and do test drive for yourself, you're only getting part of the picture.

I like this post alot. How profound. From my world, ain't nothing like seat time.

Fangio
03-03-2009, 02:45 AM
I like this post alot. How profound. From my world, ain't nothing like seat time.

+1

Nice wake-up call / reality check for some going nuts over specs. :hyp:

Chas
03-03-2009, 07:13 AM
Yes, one can achieve low THD via servos. But, IMHO - the main purpose behind servos in the consumer audio market is to force an inexpensive driver to perform like an expensive one. Electronics and piezo accelerometers are cheap in comparison to a high quality driver.

My guess is that JBL just does the opposite, that's all....:)

Ian Mackenzie
03-03-2009, 12:34 PM
The folks at Northridge are showing exactly what needs to be shown at the so-called high end.

They not only have the best testing facilities on the continent and perhaps the world, but they have the engineering and design chops to do anything that the competition is doing, including copying it and beating it at its game, if that were actually worth doing.

Instead, they are innovating. Think about that word. Roll it around in your head. Examine its nuances.

There's no need for JBL to reinvent SVS or Velodyne testosterone engineering and technology. Those who need that kind of thing buy it; those who do not need it don't buy it.

Northridge also has an extensive and state-of-the-art listening and evaluation process that involves lots of human ears. The results of this testing is the acid test. Specs are one thing; sound is another. If it specs well but sounds wrong, the specs do not matter.

Over the past several years, JBL has produced some solid winners, including the Project Arrays, SAM units, Everest II, and now the K2 S99000. For the direct driver crowd there's the Performance Series.

All the second-guessing in the world won't change the fact that the K2 S99000 is another remarkable achievement and that it was designed from a tradition of beautiful execution and magnificent sound infused with technological innovation.

Hi Dome,

I would not under estimate the competition but its about holding channel market share through hi end dealers and pushing the JBL brand to the end users with particular models that are going to appeal.

To explain when I went over to Japan the way hi end audio is merchandised is very different to pehaps elsewhere.

While JBL sell into a number of other countries after seeing an Everest in virtually every hi end store its a no brainer they sell a lot (proportionally) in Japan.

Some dealers have stores with nine or more floors and have a floor per brand they are selling or its based geographically on European sound, American sound, World audio and so on. Some stores are more conventional with mass market audio on the ground floor, home theatre on the next floor and as you go up the prices and quality goes up.

So JBL may have a whole floor in a store or with only one or two other competing brands and there is a sales manager exclusively for that floor.

The customer arrives and has an appointment to audition a particular model of JBL.

What I observed is that none of the dealers that I visited had subs being used within any of the hi end rooms.

The only direct competitor I saw to JBL was Tannoy in that Tannoy obviously have hi sensitivity horn loaded systems and they have quite a following in the hi end market. Some of the Tannoy systems are very very good.

Most of the other hi brands are all direct radiator systems and European manufacturers dominate this area and some of them are much more expensive than the JBL gear. You have to recognise that collectively there is still a lot of R & D going into that side of the industry and that its only been with the introduction of Be in the K2 9800 that JBL re emerged as a hi end player against the all direct radiator systems. I saw very little in the way of older JBL systems with maybe a 9500 S/H in some dealers.

There is also a trend towards the hi boy or tower profile of loudspeaker because of space and waf. Lots of hi end brands are moving to this trend and I suspect JBL wants to hold its presence in that area with K2 S99000 as well has have its flagship the Everest.

Some dealers had a floor almost entirely for demonstration of the Everest.
No subwoofer to be found.

Valentin
03-03-2009, 02:56 PM
so if there where no sub around the dealers room who are the guys that sell the product
they probably think thy are just fine as thy are specially when thy are selling other systems with higher prices

one thing is too see the specs of an anechoic measurement and another is what happens when the actual speaker is in a certain room

of course jbl can build a system that gos all the way down to infra world

the questions is way they did not do this


one of the answers might be that the Everest has a lot more opportunity to sound good in many different types of rooms with this configuration than one that goes down too infra world

how many of the guys in hi fi hi end etc etc have an parametric EQ and the measurement chops and equipment to adjust the room gain

most of the people in hi end are against eq

sorry for the typos :blink:

Ian Mackenzie
03-03-2009, 05:12 PM
Hi Valentin,

That is a good point but I think it comes down to what a particular market or in fact customer deems necessary after hearing a particular system.

I mean you can argue the case as we see above of a sub being necessary for any system if you want. Hearing a true hi end system of the calibre is the real measure of what is or isn't required.

JBL have gone to great lengths to create a particular bass quality with these systems that just has to be heard.


The Everest manual covers most of your questions quite intuitively


http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Owner%27s%20Manual/Owners%20Manual%20-%20Project%20Everest%20DD66000%20%20(English).pdf



The surrounding environment for the speakers affects bass quality. Placing
the speakers closer to the wall behind them or to the side walls will result in
an abundance of bass, but placing them too close will result in dull bass. On
the other hand, too much distance will reduce the bass output but result in
fast and sharp bass. The low-frequency alignment feature enables placing the
speakers near (or even in) a corner without producing an overabundance of
bass. This corner placement allows optimal performance, even in small
rooms. Find the most suitable location by using various source materials.

spkrman57
03-03-2009, 06:17 PM
Everyone is so caught up in the specs of speakers and the price of them.

I happen to use the JBL 2226 for LF duty, most of my favorite and best recorded music has "natural instraments" not electronic garbage which has very little energy below 40hz.

I find that even though the response of the 2226 is limited on the bottom end that it plays well enough for me to enjoy the distortion/compression free sound I enjoy.

I don't need much response below 40hz and with the Edgarhorns I use on the HF section with 1.4"/2" compression drivers I'm pretty much cloning a poor man's Everest system.

I will never have the funds to purchase the Everest Flagship speaker system, so I am doing what is the best alternative available to me. And it does sound good enough for my purposes!

I don't live for specs, I live for the best music reproduction I can achieve within my means using proven crossover designs and quality drivers I can afford.

I would love to have the latest product from JBL, but I live in the real world. And I don't suffer from lack of bass extension with drivers that roll off around 60hz but stay around down to 40hz in a small room.

It's the clarity and distortion free sound that makes it great. JBL's niche market knows that and they are not complaining!!!

The bottom line is JBL's top models are EXTREMELY clean sounding, and that is what you pay for in the end!!!;)

Regards, Ron

Hoerninger
03-04-2009, 12:18 AM
It's the clarity and distortion free sound that makes it great. ...;)

Big point :thmbsup:
___________
Peter

Titanium Dome
03-04-2009, 07:19 AM
Everyone is so caught up in the specs of speakers and the price of them.

I happen to use the JBL 2226 for LF duty, most of my favorite and best recorded music has "natural instraments" not electronic garbage which has very little energy below 40hz.

I find that even though the response of the 2226 is limited on the bottom end that it plays well enough for me to enjoy the distortion/compression free sound I enjoy.

I don't need much response below 40hz and with the Edgarhorns I use on the HF section with 1.4"/2" compression drivers I'm pretty much cloning a poor man's Everest system.

I will never have the funds to purchase the Everest Flagship speaker system, so I am doing what is the best alternative available to me. And it does sound good enough for my purposes!

I don't live for specs, I live for the best music reproduction I can achieve within my means using proven crossover designs and quality drivers I can afford.

I would love to have the latest product from JBL, but I live in the real world. And I don't suffer from lack of bass extension with drivers that roll off around 60hz but stay around down to 40hz in a small room.

It's the clarity and distortion free sound that makes it great. JBL's niche market knows that and they are not complaining!!!

The bottom line is JBL's top models are EXTREMELY clean sounding, and that is what you pay for in the end!!!;)

Regards, Ron

So is "I" saying that "natural instraments" have very little energy below 40 Hz or that electronic garbage has very little energy below 40 Hz?

Ian Mackenzie
03-04-2009, 11:03 AM
http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Ow...0(English).pdf (http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Owner%27s%20Manual/Owners%20Manual%20-%20Project%20Everest%20DD66000%20%20(English).pdf)



This corner placement allows optimal performance, even in small
rooms.

jblsound
03-04-2009, 11:23 AM
I would love to have the latest product from JBL, but I live in the real world. And I don't suffer from lack of bass extension with drivers that roll off around 60hz but stay around down to 40hz in a small room.



I find that to be true with the music I listen to, especially when using the TT system, even though I have a pair of SUB1500s connected. I can turn them off and get about the same sound running the custom L212s full range.

spkrman57
03-05-2009, 10:46 AM
So is "I" saying that "natural instraments" have very little energy below 40 Hz or that electronic garbage has very little energy below 40 Hz?

Let me rephrase that: Most of my music has little content under 40hz!

Sometimes I do get the urge to listen to pipe organ music and other musical selections that do go lower. I just add a powered sub for those "once in awhile" occasions!

I get quite a bit of "room gain" using my 2226's that fill most of my needs for pleasureable listening.

My next project will include JBL 2240 in 4 cu ft tuned to 40hz that is estimated to be -3db down at 60hz and -10db down at 39hz. I'm betting the room gain will restore enough LF energy to play down to 45hz with no problems. My 2226 systems are -3db at 50hz and still play down low enough for a 4 string bass to be heard clearly.

But I "DO" understand some folks need more bottom end LF response than I do! So I must be in the minority of the audiophile group.

Regards, Ron

Loffen
05-02-2009, 03:51 AM
How many watts were they trying to feed to the speaker system that would blow them up?

Probably not a problem with normal home use I'm sure!

Regards, Ron

Hmmm... maybe not the 1500 AL but the Xover LF resistors will burn up at 4-500w at 8ohms, I know :banghead: :o:

allen mueller
05-02-2009, 05:34 AM
JBL have gone to great lengths to create a particular bass quality with these systems that just has to be heard.


I think that sums it up. I have not heard the newer systems, but have heard the S9800. I am not good at describing sound, but to put it simply it was awesome. I can only imagine what the newer systems sound like.

Allen

Titanium Dome
05-21-2009, 03:44 PM
There are some nice additions to the K2 S9900 technical thread. Be certain to look them over. The material is absolutely brilliant.

A big thanks goes out to Techbot. ;) (You know who you are.)

Brian DK
05-23-2009, 08:25 AM
Hmmm... maybe not the 1500 AL but the Xover LF resistors will burn up at 4-500w at 8ohms, I know :banghead: :o:


Hmm I am using a Krell fpb 700cx on my S9800. I have no problems at all..
The Fpb 700 is measured to over 900W at 8ohms and 1600w at 4ohms.
And i use ALL of it, with no problems at all. :applaud::barf:
But of course if the amp is clipping.?? not quite the speakers fault. ;)

Loffen
08-25-2010, 08:15 AM
Just had to replay even if it is a long time ago :-)

I really do not think that my Parasound JC1 can clip...
And clipping is the reason for burning a resistor or two ? Do not think so.....:bouncy:

Valentin
08-25-2010, 08:26 AM
I really do not think that my Parasound JC1 can clip... :blink:

:spin::spin: PLEASE STOP

Loffen
08-25-2010, 08:40 AM
You ask many questions that I can not answer. The JC-1 is a very powerful amplifier (800W into 4 ohms) rated and will burn resistors or even loudspeakers, if they are not able to stand the power. It is difficult to 'clip' the JC-1 because it has such large output swing, AND it has almost unlimited peak current. Just look at the peak power rating in the 'Stereophile' JC-1 review.
I do not use the JC-1 to drive my WATTS, because it is too powerful for them, and I cannot afford to break them accidently. They are primarily designed for powerful home theater systems and large electrostatic speakers and they do well in this mode.

Who did say this ??????? :blink:

Check out the next tread.....

Loffen
08-25-2010, 08:43 AM
Check it out here : http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/124759-frying-jbl-k2-s9800-parasound-jc1.html

No I still do NOT think it was becouse my JC1's did clip Valentine :blink:

:frantic::frantic::lol_fit:

Valentin
08-25-2010, 08:56 AM
sorry you are probably right


I really do not think that my Parasound JC1 can clip...


shure :blink:

Titanium Dome
09-01-2010, 09:16 PM
I thought it best to place a few items regarding actual K2 S9900 listening experience here, just in case someone looks for more on these sublime loudspeakers. After all, this may be the last, great Northridge designed and built product in the Lansing Heritage. I know I've been visually impressed with the new K2s on my visits to Northridge, and I've been in awe of the assembly and driver manufacturing.

Anyway, at the California Audio Show in the Design Interactions room, Widget and Co. held forth with a day-long Everest II, 1400 Array, and Revel Ultima 2 Salon demo, until we prevailed on them for the K2 to get a shot after hours.

I wrote:


The Everests were challenged by the room's peculiar mode(s) more than the other systems, but as the day wore on and the in-room attendees increased, they actually worked better with more bodies in the room. It was by far the best-attended room of the day, and people would not leave at the six o'clock closing time. After doing some additional demoes, only a few diehards were left, so I kept whining that I wanted the K2 S9900s to be hooked up, and a couple of guys with $100 bills hanging out of their pockets were all for it, too, so Widget and crew moved them, hooked them up, and WOW! what a great cap to a great day.

So in one room: Everest II DD66000, K2 S9900, 1400 Array, and Revel Ultima2 Salon, all driven by Mark Levinson and Pass Labs electronics, with a couple of nice turntables, an iPod dock, and a great Furman power unit. Nice.

and


I was ready to declare the Revel Ultima2 Salons as best in show until the K2 S9900s were hooked up. Now I'm not sure which impressed me more. In a better room, the Everests would have been the champs iMO, but in that room on that day, the Salons were exceptionally good, and the K2s just blew me away. The 1400 Arrays were impressive, too, but the room was big; the LE14H-3 drivers certainly reproduced the LF material with authority, though.

Titanium Dome
09-01-2010, 09:20 PM
Ian Mac was there (hey Ian! :wave:) and it's always a pleasure to spend time with such an affable and fun gentleman. :cheers:
He wrote:


Hey Doug,

If it were not for significant shipping costs and custom duties I would have bitten the bullet on the K2 9900's there and then.

The high & mid range reproduction of the Everest and the K2 9900 seemed least effected by the demonstration room and in that respect they are the most accurate and natural sounding systems I have heard. Listening in close proximity to the Everest and the K 2 9900 the bass reproduction was equally impressive.

and


The Everest and the K2 9900 and the Array produced a more integrated midrange and high frequency performance in the demonstration room. I think Bo also came to this conclusion. (actually Bo bought this up first!). This could be a result of the demonstration room and system placement.

But to put this in perspective the Revel system wiped the floor with every other non JBL loudspeaker at the show in terms of realism. The other systems suffered excessive high frequency brightness, lack of bass and seemed to show more issues with in room peformance than the Revel and the JBL systems.

When the K2 9900 was played after the Revel system it was a no brainer which was the superior system. But at twice the cost most (except a JBL fanatics) would still be satisfied with the Revel.

Titanium Dome
09-01-2010, 09:25 PM
My reply:

Awr, you're making my head hurt. While we listened to the K2s, I actually used the BofA banking app on my iPhone to check my account balance. Thank goodness I got out of there in time! I was afraid I'd walk out with two systems. I talked about the K2s and the Revels all the way home (six hours), whether Grumpy was listening or (pretending to be) asleep.

Dammit, Widget!

Titanium Dome
09-01-2010, 09:29 PM
So there you have it. Of Lansing Heritage members, only a small number (not counting Mr. Widget) were present when the K2 S9900s were briefly fired up.

Bo
Ian
Dave
Doug

If Bo or Grumpy have anything to add, of course it would be welcome, as they were among the lucky few to actually hear them in this after hours treat.

Titanium Dome
09-01-2010, 09:33 PM
Ah, there's this exchange between 4313B and Grumpy, too.


What do you guys think about the 045Be?

It's coming on at 20 kHz in the Everest II and 15 kHz in the S9900 (It was 10 kHz in the S9800).




Combo of (Be M&HF + Be UHF) vs (Mg+Be UHF) for me, in that room, with that listening
material was a wash. Didn't stuff a sock in the 045Be to check the "air" that the 045 might
provide. I -did- prefer that combo (whether Everest or K2) to the very top end of the Salons...
personal thing, I'm sure. Also, that $15K source and $$$ front end really seemed
to allow whatever was on the recording to come through (another area that I will not be
duplicating in the near future... "Dammit, Widget "® ).

scott fitlin
09-01-2010, 11:15 PM
Check it out here : http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/124759-frying-jbl-k2-s9800-parasound-jc1.html

No I still do NOT think it was becouse my JC1's did clip Valentine :blink:

:frantic::frantic::lol_fit:Hello Loffen, I read this post, and then the thread at diyaudio, and have something to add to what may have happened to your speakers.

Although your JC-1 may not have been driven into clipping, and probably wasn't, the Parasound HALO JC-1 is capable of putting out and delivering 135 amperes of PEAK CURRENT! So, even though you weren't overdriving the amplifier, it did put out a massive amount of current, which exceeded what the resistors you burned up were capable of handling.

The Parasound HALO JC-1 is a massive amplifier, well made, and the HALO amps have massive power transformers, enormous amounts of filter storage capacitance, and lots of high current output devices. The HALO amps, especially the JC-1, are designed to produce high output current, and you, even though not overdriving the amp, exceeded the safe limits of certain components in your speakers.


But you have great taste in amplifiers as the HALO JC-1 is an incredible amp. However, with the Parasound HALO JC-1 output rating of 135 amperes@8ohms, it is an amp to be careful with. You did NOT clip or overdrive the JC-1, you exceeded the current carrying capability of the resistors in the passive networks. Which is why Mr. Greg Timbers offered to send you heavier duty resistors that CAN handle the current you will put through them.

grumpy
09-02-2010, 09:13 AM
Minor point: 135A@8 ohms? :eek: That's over 1000V :D

135A peak? OK, I'll buy that... -very- briefly, at maybe <0.1 ohms.
Make sure to clean up the arcing from the connector after trying that :)

To say that it will behave as a true voltage source down to
very low impedance (it -is- rated at 1200W@2 ohms) is still
saying a lot. That it can continue to output relatively obscene
power levels when other home equipment would fail or shut down,
is a potential that doesn't give you a clue that the load could be
internally melting (with that "load" being designed with a certain
peak/crest/avg duty cycle expectation that was apparently exceeded).

-dave/grumpy

Re: K2-S9900, on my short list (regardless of $ or "type").

scott fitlin
09-02-2010, 09:39 AM
Dave, it is rated 135amps@8ohms PEAK so yes your correct, I forgot to add that. But, some things can't stand even momentary bursts like that, IF high enough I am sure your aware.

The HALO JC-1 is still a massive amp, by any standards.

grumpy
09-02-2010, 01:37 PM
just not into 8 ohms ( -that- was my minor point... it would need a 1000+v power supply ) ...
the rest looks all good to me :)

scott fitlin
09-02-2010, 06:54 PM
just not into 8 ohms ( -that- was my minor point... it would need a 1000+v power supply ) ...
the rest looks all good to me :)I'll stand corrected to the 8 ohms, but the JC-1 is one big amp.

grumpy
09-02-2010, 07:01 PM
Yes, indeedy! :)

Titanium Dome
09-02-2010, 10:00 PM
With all this focus on amps, what would you drive a pair of K2S9900s with? This is an open question for anyone, not just those dragging out the Parasound story. :eek: :rotfl:

Widget would likely say Levinson or Pass, and Ian would probably say Pass as well, but they can of course speak for themselves on this issue.

There's the old joke about the guy who asks a Texan how much it costs to drive his Rolls Royce (or some other car), and the Texan replies, "If you have to ask, you can't afford it."

Well, I'm asking anyway. I doubt that I would be able to get a current Levinson, Pass, or other $$$$$ in addition to a $$$$$ pre, $$$$$ source, and K2s at the same time. OTOH, a Soundcraftsmen from 1990 isn't going to cut it either. There are a lot of pro amps that could handle the job, but NO ONE drives this kind of gear with a pro amp.

Maybe a Synthesis or two (bridged), or one of the new ATI Balanced models (or a derivative like Theta)? If you were limited to staying under $3-4k, what would you be looking at?

Mr. Widget
09-02-2010, 11:04 PM
Widget would likely say Levinson or Pass, and Ian would probably say Pass as well, but they can of course speak for themselves on this issue.When I had the K2s in my living room, I was using my vintage 80wpc GAS amp... they sounded fabulous! Must be the room. :p


Widget

scott fitlin
09-03-2010, 12:39 AM
With all this focus on amps, what would you drive a pair of K2S9900s with? This is an open question for anyone, not just those dragging out the Parasound story. :eek: :rotfl:

Widget would likely say Levinson or Pass, and Ian would probably say Pass as well, but they can of course speak for themselves on this issue.

There's the old joke about the guy who asks a Texan how much it costs to drive his Rolls Royce (or some other car), and the Texan replies, "If you have to ask, you can't afford it."

Well, I'm asking anyway. I doubt that I would be able to get a current Levinson, Pass, or other $$$$$ in addition to a $$$$$ pre, $$$$$ source, and K2s at the same time. OTOH, a Soundcraftsmen from 1990 isn't going to cut it either. There are a lot of pro amps that could handle the job, but NO ONE drives this kind of gear with a pro amp.

Maybe a Synthesis or two (bridged), or one of the new ATI Balanced models (or a derivative like Theta)? If you were limited to staying under $3-4k, what would you be looking at?Maybe the Parasound amps could be for you! They make several models, and they are really good, and they don't cost what a Levinson or Pass Labs cost. And besides the HALO series, they have the NEW CLASSIC line, offering big bang foir the buck, good performance, and relatively economical cost.

But even the HALO series represents GREAT value and lots of great amp, for less than what comparable brands models cost. I did go to hear the HALO amps, and i will say, they sound terrific, and are attractively priced compared to other brands that have the same power models, and in the same class range.

richluvsound
09-03-2010, 12:48 AM
Agreed Scott,

great value there ,not here though :( Dont forget to trick out the resistor package first......:) Anyway , $ 3-4 k -I'd be off to Reno hifi :D
Or Bryston ofcourse !

Rich

scott fitlin
09-03-2010, 01:51 AM
Agreed Scott,

great value there ,not here though :( Dont forget to trick out the resistor package first......:) Anyway , $ 3-4 k -I'd be off to Reno hifi :D
Or Bryston ofcourse !

RichBut Bryston doesn't use MOSFETS, and that is what I am after with the HALO amps!

richluvsound
09-03-2010, 03:48 AM
But Bryston doesn't use MOSFETS, and that is what I am after with the HALO amps!

I must have missed that bit . RENO HIFI it is then .... Or do what I'm doing and build a pass ! :blink:Rich

Titanium Dome
09-03-2010, 06:58 AM
But Bryston doesn't use MOSFETS, and that is what I am after with the HALO amps!

Aha! He wrote the magic word! :yes:

Titanium Dome
09-03-2010, 07:00 AM
I must have missed that bit . RENO HIFI it is then .... Or do what I'm doing and build a pass ! :blink:Rich

Reno I'll check out. If I could do what you do Rich, I'd build everything myself, starting with the speakers. ;)

4313B
09-03-2010, 08:45 AM
With all this focus on amps, what would you drive a pair of K2S9900s with?I'd really like to hear a pair with an old Citation XX. I don't know what Greg is driving his pair with these days. I haven't asked. I've no doubt that they'd sound just fine with my "grungy old" Citation 22's. :rotfl:

richluvsound
09-03-2010, 10:25 AM
I'd really like to hear a pair with an old Citation XX. I don't know what Greg is driving his pair with these days. I haven't asked. I've no doubt that they'd sound just fine with my "grungy old" Citation 22's. :rotfl:



And that would be stock ofcousre ! no tinkering , no tricking out ....... you couldn't resist a new cap or 2:D ?

Titanium Dome
09-03-2010, 01:34 PM
I'd really like to hear a pair with an old Citation XX. I don't know what Greg is driving his pair with these days. I haven't asked. I've no doubt that they'd sound just fine with my "grungy old" Citation 22's. :rotfl:

I don't have any Citation gear of that vintage, but I do have the 5.0 and 5.1. Right now I'm using the 5.0 as the analog stereo pre for the DX-1/XPL200 set up. The 5.1 amp (and the slightly earlier Fosgate Audionics 4125, 4200, etc.) are four-channel units, bridgeable to two channels and built like tanks. I never could figure out where they were built: ATI, Madrigal, or ????. :dont-know:

I guess if someone had a big stable of amps and access to the K2 S9900, it would be quite a party trying them all! :dancin:

Then there's the whole pre thing. That's a lot to consider as well. After being at the CAAS, there's sure a lot of interesting and sometimes bizarre gear out there just to drive some speakers. I wonder what gems might be lying undiscovered that are already in someone's garage or basement, like that Citation 5.0.

I boxed it up long ago with the intent of selling it, but it never happened. When the DX-1 arrived, I thought about what pre I would use, and oddly the 5.0 came to mind. I never used it as a two-channel pre before; it was always used in surround, but then its older Dolby and DTS modes were surpassed, obsolete, and I got newer gear.

I can now state that the 2.0 section is not obsolete, and thanks to Jim Fosgate and others for being so committed to excellence in the two-channel implementation.

Wonder how that would sound with the K2s?

Ah, so many questions--questions we all hope to be lucky enough to answer some day.

Ian Mackenzie
09-03-2010, 03:28 PM
I think at that level you need to mate the amps to the loudspeakers.

Being hard dome pistonic (Mg) which is freaking accurate I doubt if bipolar push pull (conventional) amps would be appropriate unless biased heavily into class A.

I have a Passlabs X250.5 and that sounds detailed and very smooth on my two way system using a Tad 4001 on the Emilar EH500 (+-2 db from 500 - 20,000 hz). Nothing escapes the detail and ruthless accuracy of Be and I would not use anything less as an amp.

This amp uses complementry power fets and SE baised for the first watt, then biased for push pull class (super symmetry) up to about 35 watts and then works push pull out to 250 watts into 8 ohms and 500 into 4 ohms.

I will in future drive the horn with an Passlabs AX30.5 as used at the show for the Everest 11 horns. It was magic. These amps have high constant bias, almost infinite current drive and they are quite affordable from RenoHifi.

The older Citation amps were excellent in the bass, but like many amps of that era they were is bit greasy (as in glare) in the upper mid range and top end. Amps in general have improve significantly in the past decade.

scott fitlin
09-03-2010, 03:40 PM
I think at that level you need to mate the amps to the loudspeakers.

Being hard dome pistonic (Mg) which is freaking accurate I doubt if bipolar push pull (conventional) amps would be appropriate unless biased heavily into class A.

I have a Passlabs X250.5 and that sounds detailed and very smooth on my two way system using a Tad 4001 on the Emilar EH500 (+-2 db from 500 - 20,000 hz). Nothing escapes the detail and ruthless accuracy of Be and I would not use anything less as an amp.

This amp uses complementry power fets and SE baised for the first watt, then biased for push pull class (super symmetry) up to about 35 watts and then works push pull out to 250 watts into 8 ohms and 500 into 4 ohms.

I will in future drive the horn with an Passlabs AX30.5 as used at the show for the Everest 11 horns. It was magic. These amps have high constant bias, almost infinite current drive and they are quite affordable from RenoHifi.

The older Citation amps were excellent in the bass, but like many amps of that era they were is bit greasy (as in glare) in the upper mid range and top end. Amps in general have improve significantly in the past decade.YUP!

I think your first sentence is spot on, Ian! Except that I find that ALL speakers of all eras need to mate to the amp.

4313B
09-03-2010, 04:04 PM
The older Citation amps were excellent in the bass, but like many amps of that era they were is bit greasy (as in glare) in the upper mid range and top end. Amps in general have improve significantly in the past decade.Which is exactly why I would like to hear a Citation XX again. To hear how well it has stood the test of time. For all I know we'd end up turning it off after thirty seconds. :rotfl:

Ian Mackenzie
09-04-2010, 06:01 AM
Which is exactly why I would like to hear a Citation XX again. To hear how well it has stood the test of time. For all I know we'd end up turning it off after thirty seconds. :rotfl:

The solution is bi amp and use the Citation on those nice 1500ALs and something more elegant on the mid and top end for the 0476.

There was a mission in my madness to visit Nth CA.

Something really impressive is about to be released and its made in the USA for those who understand bi amping done right.

Titanium Dome
09-04-2010, 08:46 AM
The solution is bi amp and use the Citation on those nice 1500ALs and something more elegant on the mid and top end for the 0476.

There was a mission in my madness to visit Nth CA.

Something really impressive is about to be released and its made in the USA for those who understand bi amping done right.

Oh, you are a tease!

timc
09-04-2010, 09:50 AM
The solution is bi amp and use the Citation on those nice 1500ALs and something more elegant on the mid and top end for the 0476.

There was a mission in my madness to visit Nth CA.

Something really impressive is about to be released and its made in the USA for those who understand bi amping done right.


No fair! Tell us more!!

Is it a biamp system for the Everest????

Mr. Widget
09-04-2010, 10:00 AM
Oh, you are a tease!Seems a common practice around these parts....


Widget

richluvsound
09-04-2010, 01:19 PM
Harman has come to its senses and decided to provide all current production model components to forum members with 500 posts or more at cost + 10 % :D am I close ?:D am I ?:applaud:

caladois
09-04-2010, 02:39 PM
So, I'd rather check my email box:bouncy:

Guido
09-04-2010, 04:13 PM
No fair! Tell us more!!

Is it a biamp system for the Everest????

Don't know what Ian has in mind but these are some biamp toys that will be released soon.

http://firstwatt.com/b4.html

http://firstwatt.com/b5.html

Ian Mackenzie
09-05-2010, 03:45 AM
Seems a common practice around these parts....


Widget

So I am told by the woman...LOL

Widget ..how's it at your end?

Ian Mackenzie
09-05-2010, 03:52 AM
Harman has come to its senses and decided to provide all current production model components to forum members with 500 posts or more at cost + 10 % :D am I close ?:D am I ?:applaud:

You guys turn up like a fart in the wind! LOL.

You wish.

Wait and see.

Titanium Dome
09-05-2010, 07:06 AM
My fart is the wind.

Wait and smell.






Today is a big day!

hjames
09-05-2010, 02:40 PM
Wait and smell.

Today is a big day!

C'mawn ya big tease - fess UP!

Ian Mackenzie
09-05-2010, 08:34 PM
C'mawn ya big tease - fess UP!

Okay,

The intent is commercial offering to replace the role of the DX1 but I cannot comment futher at this time.

Titanium Dome
09-05-2010, 09:16 PM
So yesterday, I checked my horoscope on my home page. Of course I don't believe in it, but it seemed to call me to action. Then early this morning, I saw another sign to do something.

Titanium Dome
09-05-2010, 09:20 PM
So, I figured, what is more out of the way and full of specialty shops than San Luis Obispo, CA, about three-and-a-half hours north of me?

I cleaned out the Sorento, put the destination in the GPS, and off I went.

Titanium Dome
09-05-2010, 09:28 PM
After a long drive, I pulled off the 101 in San Luis Obispo and stopped at the Splash Cafe, a kind of specialty bakery/restaurant in a trendy little neighborhood of shops and boutiques. As I was in the almost vacant back parking lot, a big, white van pulled up and nearly blocked me in. :wtf:

Titanium Dome
09-05-2010, 09:32 PM
So the guy says he's an installer of HTs and home audio, etc., and he's just finished a job and the customer didn't like the speakers. They were too big, and besides, they weren't Bose.

So the "installer" says maybe I'd like to buy them. Cheap. They're already paid for and he can't take them back. So he shows me what's in the van.

Titanium Dome
09-05-2010, 09:36 PM
:jawdrop:

I'm like, no effing way! Is this for real, or are there rocks on those boxes? :skeptical:

Would you buy anything from this guy?

Titanium Dome
09-05-2010, 09:44 PM
Okay, the real story is that Mr. Widget drove all the way from San Francisco to San Luis Obispo, and I drove up from LA. He and his partner Terry of Design Interaction http://www.design-interaction.com/Home_Theater/home.html made it possible for me to get a pair of JBL K2 S9900!!!

Can you believe that Widget took six or seven hours out of his Sunday to bring these beauties more than half way?

I cannot thank him enough, nor can I express to Terry my gratitude for working on this with me. :hurray:

I did buy him an inexpensive lunch at the vastly popular and crowded Splash Cafe, but it's hardly a fitting reward. Next time we meet with more time, the drinks and dinner are on me. :cheers:

Titanium Dome
09-05-2010, 09:50 PM
I got home and immediately face the challenge of getting them in the house. Phase one was getting them backed up to the front door as close as possble, so I jammed the Sorento right up to the porch. Then Huiky (bless her) helpe be get them out and down the steps to the main floor.

We never lifted them. We used physics, fulcrum points, and leverage, plus a nice flannel sheet to move them across the Travertine and hardwood without scratching anything. It was a lot easier than we expected.

Titanium Dome
09-05-2010, 09:53 PM
We got them into the living room without any sprains, pulls, cuts, or bruises.

Titanium Dome
09-05-2010, 09:58 PM
Yeah, I know, it's like a blog, but, sheesh! I'm pretty excited. :banana:

Getting them out of the box was pretty easy with the side access of the boxes.

1. Cut the tape on the front flap.
2. Open the four flaps.
3. Wiggle/slide the speaker and its foam protectors out.

Titanium Dome
09-05-2010, 10:02 PM
Taking off the shroud was a little like opening a treasure. It was more exciting than I can say.

Underneath, was the beautiful thing. :bouncy:

Titanium Dome
09-05-2010, 10:07 PM
Set up and listening will wait until tomorrow. For now, a few more shots of these beauties.

On the right speaker, you can see a very small chip on the top edge. On the left speaker you can see a dinged corner at the top right. These imperfections are shipping damage, and will not detract from my enjoyment whatsoever.

Titanium Dome
09-05-2010, 10:18 PM
Hopefully I can get some better photos in daylight tomorrow. My plan is to get them set up and give them a whirl with what I've got around the house, then we'll see where to go from there.

It's un-freaking-believable that these beauties are sitting in my house. I can't believe I have the composure to wait until morning to hook them up.

Once again, thank you Design Interaction, and thank you Widget for being my enabler in getting this final big hit of JBL Northridge, US-made gear. :thmbsup:

Audionutz
09-05-2010, 11:06 PM
Titanium Dome,

My heartfelt congratulations on the additions to the family ! There is just nothing quite like the unpacking and admiring of a new pair of speakers, and especially something of the caliber of the K2. Every moment is to be savored and recorded, to be remembered and enjoyed later, time and time again.

I wish you many, many long and enjoyable hours or setup and listening.

Big Kudos to Widget and Co too ! Way Above and Beyond IMHO :applaud:

Cheers

Scott

scott fitlin
09-05-2010, 11:14 PM
Hey Ti, they are sweet looking speakers, ENJOY THEM you deserve them. I'm digging the that deep rich toned wood cabinetry. The horns and 045BE look so precise and attractive at their positions and installment in those gorgeous K2 cabs. YEAH BABY!


:thmbsup:

:cheers:

:dj-party:

:cheers:

:thmbsup:

Titanium Dome
09-05-2010, 11:51 PM
Thanks, Scotts.

ScottyJ, did you see your amps in the back of Widget's van?

scott fitlin
09-06-2010, 12:10 AM
Thanks, Scotts.

ScottyJ, did you see your amps in the back of Widget's van?Did you?

I'm getting pschyed up, too! :bouncy:

richluvsound
09-06-2010, 01:38 AM
Td ,

man I'm so happy for you. They are absolutely beautiful . Huge congratulations from over the pond .
Thanks for letting me share your excitement and joy .

Rich:bouncy:

Audiobeer
09-06-2010, 02:13 AM
I will talk to you as I would an freind who had a pair of these.....":applaud:YOU SUCK"! Very Jealous!

hjames
09-06-2010, 05:10 AM
Wow - they look awesome in your home - can't even imagine how they SOUND in your home! :applaud:
Kudos to you sir, and to your enabler, Mr. Widget!:bouncy:

4313B
09-06-2010, 06:56 AM
Once again, thank you Design Interaction, and thank you Widget for being my enabler in getting this final big hit of JBL Northridge, US-made gear. :thmbsup:Outstanding! :applaud:

timc
09-06-2010, 08:00 AM
*Drooooool*

They look great! Grats on your new purchase. Cudos to Widget & Co. as well. THAT is service.

I foresee :dancin: and :rockon2: in your future.


-Tim

rusty jefferson
09-06-2010, 08:21 AM
NICE SCORE!! Congratulations!

Those things look SWEET!

Also, killer WAF. Way above and beyond.

Titanium Dome
09-06-2010, 08:52 AM
NICE SCORE!! Congratulations!

Those things look SWEET!

Also, killer WAF. Way above and beyond.

You're right. Huikyong just came down and saw them out of the box for the first time.

"Wow! Those look really nice. Very nice." Then she patted me.

Best thing: she didn't say anything about the way I'm moving the room around. Last time, things didn't go as well. The room ended up exactly the way it was before.

scott fitlin
09-06-2010, 09:18 AM
;)
You're right. Huikyong just came down and saw them out of the box for the first time.

"Wow! Those look really nice. Very nice." Then she patted me.

Best thing: she didn't say anything about the way I'm moving the room around. Last time, things didn't go as well. The room ended up exactly the way it was before.


Nice things, that work well, and are appreciated by TWO people TOGETHER =


THE GOOD LIFE!


:thmbsup:

polar_bear_0104
09-06-2010, 10:08 AM
oh wow!!! TI....what a find....

i hope i'll be as lucky as you one day!...looks awesome already even before it plays!..:applaud:

caladois
09-06-2010, 10:49 AM
Thanks for sharing your excitment !!!!

you will have to modify your pseudo :)

cooky1257
09-06-2010, 11:40 AM
Really really nice, a great story with an excellent delivery:D:D

Mr. Widget
09-06-2010, 11:45 AM
Thanks for lunch... it was a beautiful day for a drive along the California coast.

I hope you enjoy them for many years to come.


Widget

Titanium Dome
09-06-2010, 02:22 PM
After an initial trip to Home Depot to find some way to protect the hardwood floor, I got around to set up.

I had a few decisions to make with respect to the room, and lots with respect to the equipment.

Once I moved the big chair to the same side as the couch, it really opened up the space. I took everything away from the only solid wall in the whole room, which fortunately has a nice corner at the fireplace to supplement the only true corner in the room at the opposite end of the wall. The room only has two walls, and is open on the other sides.

The back of the living room is right up to the front of the family room, where the Performance Series system is. So from the family room looking toward the living room, the view is this.

That's a lot of JBL.

Titanium Dome
09-06-2010, 02:27 PM
I put the photo stand and the totem pole back against the wall to close up the space on the wall and to give the impression the room has not been turned totally into a listening room. ;)

Until I have something better, the end table, which was displaced by the chair, is now serving as my equipment rack.

Coming up the two steps from the family room to the living room, it looks like this.

Some of my African violets are by the window.

Titanium Dome
09-06-2010, 02:30 PM
Seated in the sweet spot, which is actually pretty wide, so I'm right in the middle, here's the view. The coffee table can be removed when I'm the only one home, but for normal use, it stays where it is.

Titanium Dome
09-06-2010, 02:45 PM
One of my concerns, about reflections off the hard floor and table, seems to have been over-anticipated. The horns keep a pretty tight focus on the horizontal plane, so all's good.

I'll need to experiment with exact placement for a while, as I don't see a manual, so I'll have to get one sent to me. I'm assuming the corners are good for the K2s.

As for gear, I opted for my trusty Fosgate Audionics 4125 High Current amp. Its four channels are currently bridged to two, providing 225W/ch into 8 Ohms.

I hooked up the Soundcraftsmen P100 pre. It's simple, it's small, and it's available for use. Though not the best preamp, it's clean and predicatbe, and it's a dedicated stereo pre--no extra stuff whatsoever.

The only CD player I have is in one of my offices, so I may have to bring it home for a test. In the meantime, the Panasonic XP50 CD/DVDplayer is in the mix as stereo analog out only. This was one of--if not THE--highest ranked CD/DVD players in its time, though an up-to-date replacement will be desired.

For cables, I finally dragged out those Monster Z Series cables that've been in my garage for years. I've never hooked them up before, and the thick bastiges were a bit of a challenge. But perseverance pays off, and now I have big, fat, audiophile looking cables with black woven jackets. :D

I used Monoprice interconnects.

All the electronics are going through a Niles IPC8.

Titanium Dome
09-06-2010, 02:58 PM
Ok, well it's too soon to tell. I'll need some alone time with them, which I wont get until we both go back to work.

However, I will say without equivocation that these are the best low volume speakers I've ever heard. They lose virtually no dynamism at low levels.

As for the need to add a sub, the jury is out on that, too. It's certainly not needed for the listening I've done so far. The bass is really clean and tight. Since these will be music only, I'll wait to see how I acclimate.

The sound is effortless, natural, confident. Yes, those are good words. Even with mediocre equipment, it's easy to hear the inevitable "things I've never heard before." (Everybody says that, right?) The amp, may in fact almost be good enough if paired with better partners.

I may get some LH and AVS folks to come over and bring their best amp, pre, player, whatever, and have a test fest to see whose gear has the goods to make these beauties really stand out.

Much excitement is anticipated for all. :bouncy:

hjames
09-06-2010, 06:39 PM
It looks awesome, to say the least, and it sounds like you are really enjoying the sound -
and the totem pole is quite cool ...
but, if I can ask, without taking this too far afield ...
what are the stones in and around your candles?
Is that something to slip over the wick and hide the ugly burnt black string -
or does it serve a different purpose?

Robh3606
09-06-2010, 08:22 PM
Hello TD

They look great! Enjoy them

Rob:)

Titanium Dome
09-06-2010, 09:46 PM
if I can ask, without taking this too far afield ...
what are the stones in and around your candles?
Is that something to slip over the wick and hide the ugly burnt black string -
or does it serve a different purpose?

Hi Heather. Those aren't stones, they're beads engraved with Chinese characters. Our niece and nephew visited a couple of weeks ago, and I'm sure they're the ones who decided to put the beads over the wicks. It was probably three-year-old Abbey, who's into such detail-oriented things, while five-year-old Ben was exclusively focused on "Uncle Duck's" best movie theater ever.

I'm certain he'll be duly impressed with the K2s.

JeffW
09-07-2010, 07:49 AM
So the guy says he's an installer of HTs and home audio, etc., and he's just finished a job and the customer didn't like the speakers. They were too big, and besides, they weren't Bose.

So the "installer" says maybe I'd like to buy them. Cheap. They're already paid for and he can't take them back. So he shows me what's in the van.

So THAT's what they mean by "white van speakers"! :applaud:

grumpy
09-07-2010, 09:55 AM
I may get some LH and AVS folks to come over and bring their best amp, pre, player, whatever, and have a test fest to see whose gear has the goods to make these beauties really stand out.I humbly suggest putting the emphasis on the source end and working your way
toward the speakers, as a way to continue to hear improvements (I'd settle on a
long-term amp last ... if I were fortunate enough for it to be me ;))

I'm not saying to use crud for an amp meanwhile, just that a largish amp investment
(or not) might make more sense after the rest has been sorted out, such that a better
determination can be made.

Awesome to have such "problems" :) and kudos to Widget toward making this happen!

Mr. Widget
09-07-2010, 10:07 AM
I humbly suggest putting the emphasis on the source end and working your way
toward the speakers, as a way to continue to hear improvements (I'd settle on a
long-term amp last ... if I were fortunate enough for it be me ;))

I'm not saying to use crud for an amp meanwhile, just that a largish amp investment
(or not) might make more sense after the rest has been sorted out, such that a better
determination can be made.
I completely agree!

I wouldn't have been quite so generous to Mr. Dome had I had a few extra Gs lying around... ;) Perhaps more than a few...but it certainly is good to see that they went to a good home. :bouncy:


Widget

louped garouv
09-07-2010, 10:28 AM
So THAT's what they mean by "white van speakers"! :applaud:


LoL


congrats TiDome...

:applaud:

Titanium Dome
09-07-2010, 12:18 PM
I humbly suggest putting the emphasis on the source end and working your way
toward the speakers, as a way to continue to hear improvements


I completely agree!


Widget

Well, I do have a boatload of amps I can rotate, though the 4125 seems to be doing the job with aplomb right now.

The pre and the source are certainly more immediate. One thing I will do soon is pull the Oppo BDP-83SE out of the rack and bring it up for a test run. That analog section is awfully good, so it's a good first step.

As for the pre, I've really got nothing except the Citation that I'd consider, and it's doing so well with the XPL200s that I hate to pull it. OTOH, it will help me to determine if the P100 is hurting the overall sound at all. I suspect it's "not helping."

I guess I could hook up the SDP-5 (Lexicon MC-8), too. I'm not too familiar with its stereo capabilities.
:hmm:

grumpy
09-07-2010, 01:11 PM
I've got an old, analog Proceed PRE (2-ch preamp) you could play with (rca + XLR outs, two sets of XLR-in),
that wouldn't put me out... and a 'matching' AMP-2 for that matter.

rdgrimes
09-07-2010, 01:59 PM
As for the pre, I've really got nothing except the Citation that I'd consider, and it's doing so well with the XPL200s that I hate to pull it. OTOH, it will help me to determine if the P100 is hurting the overall sound at all. I suspect it's "not helping."

I guess I could hook up the SDP-5 (Lexicon MC-8), too. I'm not too familiar with its stereo capabilities.
:hmm:
100% pure analog is the way to go. No digital pre-amps or receivers need apply. They almost all will do an A-D-A conversion. That alone will reduce any benefits you'd get from the Oppo. Also, with the latest public firmware for the Oppo, the player's volume control is done in the DACs, so you can hook it direct to an amp with no pre-amp at all. Just be sure to lower the player's volume before you start a disc. ;)

grumpy
09-07-2010, 02:23 PM
the player's volume control is done in the DACsI admittedly, haven't read up on the oppo's latest firmware or the Sabre DAC/buffer
architecture (recently), but I would hope that the quote above is really shorthand for
something else... such as some digitally-controlled volume control, in-chip,
done -after- the DAC proper.

OK, I re-read (ESS Sabre paper/specs). I would reserve judgment for actual listening tests,
but the in-chip volume control is pre-DAC ("a DSP function")... generally not optimum, even if
convenient and well balanced channel-to-channel. Fine as a muting function :)

tom1040
09-07-2010, 03:09 PM
TD-first of all, awesome score. Secondly, thanks for your support in another thread. Third, and more to my interest, how freaking big is your abode to handle all those systems(speakers)? I have a modest home on the coast of Maine with 3 independant systems(albeit one is in a small bedroom(L5's/w/Sansui G-8000).

Just kidding you. I have a bother in law who is a CFP in/near Palm Springs that just bought a large house......it would seem real estate is a bargain there?

No matter, enjoy those awesome speakers.

rdgrimes
09-07-2010, 04:41 PM
I admittedly, haven't read up on the oppo's latest firmware or the Sabre DAC/buffer
architecture (recently), but I would hope that the quote above is really shorthand for
something else... such as some digitally-controlled volume control, in-chip,
done -after- the DAC proper.

OK, I re-read (ESS Sabre paper/specs). I would reserve judgment for actual listening tests,
but the in-chip volume control is pre-DAC ("a DSP function")... generally not optimum, even if
convenient and well balanced channel-to-channel. Fine as a muting function :)
Yes, it's a digital volume control and does occur in the DAC chips. It does "truncate" the signal especially below 80% volume. Oppo did a lot of testing on this and found this route to be identical in listening tests to using the decoder chip's volume control. They also found no "audible" shortcomings to using the digital volume compared to any other method. YMMV and this is certainly a topic for another thread. The gist of it is that the Oppo CAN be used without any pre-amp at all and a number of folks are doing so and love it. It works the same in both the Sabre chips of the -83SE and the Cirrus chips in the -83. One reason they did this was to enable volume control while using the "DSD mode" on SACDs.

Mr. Widget
09-07-2010, 10:40 PM
I've got an old, analog Proceed PRE (2-ch preamp) you could play with (rca + XLR outs, two sets of XLR-in),
that wouldn't put me out... and a 'matching' AMP-2 for that matter.Please take them to him! I am not particularly familiar with Proceed, but in my experience virtually any dedicated analog separate preamp will be light years ahead of all but the very, very, best DSPized gear.



OK, I re-read (ESS Sabre paper/specs). I would reserve judgment for actual listening tests,
but the in-chip volume control is pre-DAC ("a DSP function")... generally not optimum...Months ago I did carefully listen to the Oppos in their two channel analog state... the SE was a great bang for the buck, but certainly not in the league of the K2s.

The bottom line is that now that there are K2s in the system, you don't want to smother them with an inferior signal.


Widget

caladois
09-08-2010, 03:49 AM
Solution,will come with new or used High end product (Bryston, Pass labs, Boulder, ML, Krell, Threshold ect...) or real professionnal gear (JMF-Audio, FM-Acoustics, Crest, Lab gruppen, MC2, Studer...) !!!

We are waiting for pictures now, and listening details...

4313B
09-08-2010, 06:13 AM
So... what does one spend on gear to run a pair of $40k loudspeakers? Another $40k? Half that? Twice that?

What about all that gear in a less than optimal room? Does that change the game? What is the goal? To eliminate all possible weak links except the room?

caladois
09-08-2010, 06:22 AM
First, you are right, the room speaker position is far not optimal (back Wall, corner, axis ect...). But let him the time, to find the proper set up.
Then, if he got the same chance, tne rest of the gear won't be a problem, either on second hand market !

grumpy
09-08-2010, 06:54 AM
It's a 'tuffy' alright. Not everyone can set up an optimized and completely dedicated space
like Valentin, let alone a second one (I -imagine-, even that well-though-out installation had
minor compromises and things that would have been done differently in hindsight).

Optimizing the listening experience within a set area and -somewhat- malleable environment
(positions, surfaces, ...dare I say EQ, etc...) is a challenge for all home installations,
no matter the cost of the speakers. This pair would seem particularly worthy of a very high
level of consideration and priority regarding placement, seating,... but again, this is
something that all systems could benefit from.

Hoerninger
09-08-2010, 07:35 AM
... but again, this is
something that all systems could benefit from.
... anybody dwelling with a roof pitch?
T.D's reflectors will not work properly ...
(sorry for chiming in, it's more a rhetoric question)
___________
Peter :dont-know:

richluvsound
09-08-2010, 09:17 AM
I do kind of envy Doug's present dilema ! what gear ? where to put them ? Nice problems to have .
Could be a very interesting thread on placement . Based on his work in the HT set up I'm sure the experience will be well documented .Useful tips for us all I hope .

Rich

JBLAddict
09-08-2010, 11:30 AM
there were some interesting comparisons by Doug of Salon2 vs K2 from the CAS show, I'm wondering if this move is a statement or just taking advantage of a rare opportunity :hmm:

Titanium Dome
09-08-2010, 01:27 PM
there were some interesting comparisons by Doug of Salon2 vs K2 from the CAS show, I'm wondering if this move is a statement or just taking advantage of a rare opportunity :hmm:

That's a good query that has an answer or ten.

Both the Salons and the K2s were available at and after the CAAS show.

The Salons were "cheaper" than the K2s, as you might imagine. MSRP is $22k vs $44k, so even lacking full retail, the Salons will be much less expensive and therefore more affordable.

The Salons are more full-range than the K2s, and they're more room-friendly.

The Salons have a sound that I really like a lot, and they are the next logical upgrade from the Performance Series.

The Salons have an energy and a drive that is undeniable. Almost everyone who heard them in that room immediately preferred them. They're instantly likable.

The Salons have a profile that fits easily into most spaces, and with the down-firing sub, placement is less restrictive.

So Salon is the choice, right? Well, not so fast.

Salons are plentiful on the used market, and I routinely see pairs for $10k to $12k. I expect this trend to continue, and used prices to decline even a little more. Salons will be available for some time.

I suspect Revel and Kevin Voecks will be building Salons for a long time, and that Revel will have more support from Harman than high-end JBLs will.

I've never seen K2 S9900s on the used market, don't expect to see any soon, and if I do see them I don't expect them to be $10k or $12k like the Salons--more like $22k to $25k+.

Recent acquisitions have given me the chance to mess around with building a PT250, and, with Grumpy's help, I expect that project to sublimate my Ti Dome fixation for a while. It can be my Salon substitute for now.

The chance to purchase a pair of K2s that were very lightly veneer-damaged and thus price reduced by Harman is possibly once-in-a-lifetime.

The fact that the "secret K2 audition" after hours at CAAS occurred with some respected Lansing Heritage members in the room gave me the chance to listen to opinions from people whom I trust. How often will Widget, Bo, Ian, and Grumpy be in one room able to comment and dissect the experience, especially over some wine and Long Islands afterward. I knew the second I heard them in that room after hearing the Salons, that while I wanted the Salons, I needed the K2s. The others corroborated my opinion, even if they didn't know they were on my selection panel.

Terry and Widget were extra helpful in making this all work out, and in the end, the opportunity was too great to ignore. These K2s possibly are the last full expression of JBL high end speakers; at the least, they are the last from Northridge.

Finally, they are just too beautiful not to desire them. Pictures do not tell the story of either their full visual beauty or their stunning aural beauty. Perhaps, if I hadn't heard them after the Salons it wouldn't have happened. My prejudice would have taken me to the Salons, and I'd be singing their praises instead.

However, I did hear them, and I knew I had to do what I could to possess them. Slowly, cooly, methodically, patiently, and with determination, I took the time to get everything in order, and when the time was right they were still available. I jumped.

Valentin
09-08-2010, 01:56 PM
congrats

i have heard the K2 9900 in a semi dedicated room and thy are a fantastic speaker
i love the sound of that mg 4" driver and horn I would just call it so fast and effortless and tact-full

bass is just right

i have compared them in the same room with Revel studio 2 witch is a very nice and power-full speaker but i do prefer the K2

i have also heard the salons but not at the same time

you are a very lucky guy :applaud:

JBLAddict
09-08-2010, 02:59 PM
That's a good query that has an answer or ten.

The Salons are more full-range than the K2s

The Salons have an energy and a drive that is undeniable. Almost everyone who heard them in that room immediately preferred them.

Salons are plentiful on the used market, and I routinely see pairs for $10k to $12k. I expect this trend to continue, and used prices to decline even a little more. Salons will be available for some time.

I knew the second I heard them in that room after hearing the Salons, that while I wanted the Salons, I needed the K2s. The others corroborated my opinion, even if they didn't know they were on my selection panel.

Finally, they are just too beautiful not to desire them.


Thanks for the well thought out response, I understand that this is a comparison that cannot elicit a "these are better so I bought them instead" type response, as hard as some of us try to create a type of mental Harman product hierarchy :)

But understand how difficult this acquisition makes it for forum members to begin even asking discussion questions, since the basis of comparison is soooo far removed. As vastly interested as most of us are in vicarious detail, the best some of us can come up with is, " do they sound 50X better than my L__ 43__ or 100X better than my L__ 43__ ;)

4313B
09-09-2010, 05:35 AM
As vastly interested as most of us are in vicarious detail, the best some of us can come up with is, " do they sound 50X better than my L__ 43__ or 100X better than my L__ 43__ ;)While they sound 30 years better than an S22 system from 1980 an S22 system in 2010 dollars is "only" ~ $8k per pair. So where does the extra $32k go? Well, upper management paychecks have reached astronomical proportions over the years and it takes a ton of cash to support such ludicrously lavish expenses. Harman would do well to outsource its top level management and dramatically reduce that inane expense. There is an endless supply of "third-world" talent that could run that company just fine.

As far as the actual loudspeakers go:

The 1500AL is definitely worth the price increase over the 136H.

The 476Mg is definitely better than the venerable 376/2441. I've been told that the 476Mg is quite a bit less expensive than the 476Be but it has to be more expensive than the 2452H-SL at ~ $1,500.

The 045Ti is less expensive than the 077/2405 in 2010 dollars and offers substantially improved performance in a home listening environment. The 077/2405 still wins for SR, you just can't beat that sensitivity.

The network cost is roughly the same scaled to 2010 dollars but the networks themselves are substantially improved over an LX80A/N7000 combo.

And finally, there is no comparison between a 1980 EN5C and a 2010 K2-S9900 enclosure. The new box wins hands down.


In short, the K2-S9900 is probably more along the lines of a $12k to $16k loudspeaker once you dump the $40 million dollar a year CEO and his ilk. :yes:

JBLAddict
09-09-2010, 10:20 AM
In short, the K2-S9900 is probably more along the lines of a $12k to $16k loudspeaker once you dump the $40 million dollar a year CEO and his ilk. :yes:


cuz Lord knows they're not spending it on marketing :D

Titanium Dome
09-09-2010, 09:30 PM
Alright, here's the deal.

Last night I cooked some Hebrew National dogs (I know it's not Vienna Beef, Chicago denizens) and made some Chicago dogs, along with some other goodies for dinner. While I cooked, I put on Heart's "The Road Home" CD (Grumpy gets it), and for the first time ever--did I write EVER?--when Huiky came home she didn't glower and say, "Can you turn that down?" She listened to the whole CD through supper and commented, "It seems like I am right there at the concert. It's really nice." :wtf: :dont-know:

The K2 s are so effortless even at moderate volumes that we could talk as we normally do at dinner, and still the music played on in excellent fidelity.

So tonight we went out to one of our favorite places: 22nd Street Landing in San Pedro. I had salmon, she had the Fisherman's Platter; she had a glass of merlot and I had a couple of Rum Runners. When we got home, she asked, "What are you going to do?"

Before I could answer, she suggested, "Let's listen to Heart on the new speakers." :wtf: :dont-know: I mean this has never happened in ten years of being together. :confused:

I said, "Sure."

We sat down and listened, and we listened to the entire CD.

The.
Entire.
CD.

We have literally NEVER done this in ten years. Songs that we knew, we sang along, tapped our fingers, smiled at each other. But we listened to music. Together.

I was in bliss. It was bliss for her, too.

Over the past day or two, I've experimented with positioning the K2s, literally an inch at a time. I'm measuring, listening, evaluating, moving. I don't know if I'm there yet, but for her, it's already head and shoulders above anything else I've got. Tonight was proof of that.

If you want to know how much better these speakers are to anything else I've got, if you want some kind of review as to how good they really are, there's your review right there. Nothing else in TEN YEARS has evoked a spontaneous request to listen to music until now.

If anyone ever asks, "Are the K2 S9900s really worth $44k?" My reply is "Yes." (Well, truthfully, f@#k yes, but you get the idea. And of course, I didn't really pay the full $44k.) If these beautiful loudspeakers can evoke that kind of response from the person I love the most, then it's a no-brainer acquisition. It's the best money I've ever spent on audio.

Take my word for it. :yes:

Titanium Dome
09-09-2010, 09:37 PM
I do kind of envy Doug's present dilema ! what gear ? where to put them ? Nice problems to have .
Could be a very interesting thread on placement . Based on his work in the HT set up I'm sure the experience will be well documented .Useful tips for us all I hope .

Rich

Rich

I'd actually like to get a set of readings from various placements to post here. I think I'll need to get Grumpy to bring his MacBook Pro and FuzzMeasure over.

It seems clear that even a few inches makes a difference, and every change gives something and takes something away. I need some effing graphs to back up my subjective impressions. ;)

caladois
09-10-2010, 12:24 AM
Vous lire est un réel plaisir !!

Thanks Titanium Dome for all these comments. Day after day, It's really a pleasure to read your post
I believe this is the best and the biggest money spend on speaker and your WAF is more than good to you.

You should tell her that with a new electronic gear, it should outperform :) (if possible)

richluvsound
09-10-2010, 01:10 AM
Doug,

how about a romantic weekend in Reno ? Not with me , behave yourself man ! .... Take the good lady away to help you chose an amp ,pre amp combo.

I was drooling there yesterday . Some good deals in stock at the moment .... Also,perhaps there are a few dealers that will bring gear around to your home for you to demo.....

keep us posted , Rich

4313B
09-10-2010, 06:27 AM
If anyone ever asks, "Are the K2 S9900s really worth $44k?" My reply is "Yes." (Well, truthfully, f@#k yes, but you get the idea. And of course, I didn't really pay the full $44k.) If these beautiful loudspeakers can evoke that kind of response from the person I love the most, then it's a no-brainer acquisition. It's the best money I've ever spent on audio.

Take my word for it. :yes:Well that's a huge plus. I think we all enjoy it a whole lot more when our families share in the experience. :)

Speaking of Heart, I just bought their Live in Seattle DVD.

grumpy
09-10-2010, 10:47 AM
Graphs shmaphs. That's all well and good, but holy smokes batman, you've hit the trifecta! Well done sir.

scott fitlin
09-10-2010, 11:07 AM
Alright, here's the deal.

Last night I cooked some Hebrew National dogs (I know it's not Vienna Beef, Chicago denizens) and made some Chicago dogs, along with some other goodies for dinner. While I cooked, I put on Heart's "The Road Home" CD (Grumpy gets it), and for the first time ever--did I write EVER?--when Huiky came home she didn't glower and say, "Can you turn that down?" She listened to the whole CD through supper and commented, "It seems like I am right there at the concert. It's really nice." :wtf: :dont-know:

The K2 s are so effortless even at moderate volumes that we could talk as we normally do at dinner, and still the music played on in excellent fidelity.

So tonight we went out to one of our favorite places: 22nd Street Landing in San Pedro. I had salmon, she had the Fisherman's Platter; she had a glass of merlot and I had a couple of Rum Runners. When we got home, she asked, "What are you going to do?"

Before I could answer, she suggested, "Let's listen to Heart on the new speakers." :wtf: :dont-know: I mean this has never happened in ten years of being together. :confused:

I said, "Sure."

We sat down and listened, and we listened to the entire CD.

The.
Entire.
CD.

We have literally NEVER done this in ten years. Songs that we knew, we sang along, tapped our fingers, smiled at each other. But we listened to music. Together.

I was in bliss. It was bliss for her, too.

If you want to know how much better these speakers are to anything else I've got, if you want some kind of review as to how good they really are, there's your review right there. Nothing else in TEN YEARS has evoked a spontaneous request to listen to music until now.

Take my word for it. :yes:This sums it up better than anything I have ever read! To me, THIS is what it is/was always about in the first place. Listening to and enjoying music. Forget all the technical response jargon, and measurement data, these speakers evoke the HUMAN RESPONSE!

This is the BEST it gets!


:thmbsup:

richluvsound
09-10-2010, 12:22 PM
This sums it up better than anything I have ever read! To me, THIS is what it is/was always about in the first place. Listening to and enjoying music. Forget all the technical response jargon, and measurement data, these speakers evoke the HUMAN RESPONSE!

This is the BEST it gets!


:thmbsup:

maybe I'm way off beam here , but IMHO that Greg Timbers guy is an artist in the true sense of the word ." To evoke a HUMAN response " I use paint and materials, GT uses sound ,but ultimately the goal is the same . To stimulate emotion , imagination and inspire . If you can do one of these things your a good artist , to do all three, then your a great one. To transcend the intellect , social and cultural differences fall away and one is left with a human response at a primeval level. Sound is one powerful bloody medium .

I really hope Greg keeps producing his kind of art in his chosen medium.

Titanium Dome
09-10-2010, 01:54 PM
maybe I'm way off beam here , but IMHO that Greg Timbers guy is an artist in the true sense of the word ." To evoke a HUMAN response " I use paint and materials, GT uses sound ,but ultimately the goal is the same . To stimulate emotion , imagination and inspire . If you can do one of these things your a good artist , to do all three, then your a great one. To transcend the intellect , social and cultural differences fall away and one is left with a human response at a primeval level. Sound is one powerful bloody medium .

I really hope Greg keeps producing his kind of art in his chosen medium.

You're square in the mark, Rich. I've been thinking about this a lot recently, especially with the K2s in the house. Every JBL I listen to with regularity has one thing in common: Greg Timbers had a hand in it.

True, I still have the L7s, the L100s, 4430s, and the SVAs among others. Yet they've been relegated to "occasional" status. Heck, I'm even trying to sell some of them. :eek:

Right now I'm grooving on the L250s in my office. Tonight, I'll be having a little XPL200 delight, followed by some K2 heaven. This weekend the One Array system and the Performance Series will be on tap, and the S/2600s will be on in the bedroom as they are every day.

There's a sense of needing to do something to recognize the genius behind so many systems that give me and others so much pleasure. This is especially true considering the near extinction of JBL at the Harman Campus in Northridge. He (and others no doubt) should be recognized while still a part of Harman, not after the whole thing is flushed. I was actually thinking about a number of ways this could be done, including maybe hosting an event where the man and many of his systems could be in the same place. Hmm. We'll see...

richluvsound
09-10-2010, 02:21 PM
Doug,

If Greg Timbers were British he would have received some kind of honour by now .... Knighted or M.B.E or something along those lines . I'm sure thats not important to him , but considering his commitment , innovation and achievements he deserves it . You can see in his eyes and hear in his speakers what kind of person he is :) He does it because he loves it ... and I have not had the pleasure,but its written all over his face lol

Rich

scott fitlin
09-10-2010, 02:32 PM
There's a sense of needing to do something to recognize the genius behind so many systems that give me and others so much pleasure. And, truthfully, IMO, you have done the 1st and MOST important thing, and you will continue to do the second on a daily basis, maybe even many times a day!

1. YOU purchased a pair of K2 S9900!

2. YOU, and your family will use and listen to your K2 EVERY DAY!

Greg Timbers has made his indelible mark on you, as he has so many, and you have his creations, as working and functioning art exhibits to be a part of your life indefinitely. To me, IF I were a speaker designer/engineer, this would mean more to me than all the technical awards, and measurements. You hear and feel what it is he hears and feels. This epitomizes the definition of the word CLASSIC, because the K2 will be timeless, and a part of your life for a long, long time to come, and many others, too!

A person such as Greg Timbers has to smile when he reads forums like these, his recent flagship creations are considered to be without peer, and that is a huge testament to him within itself. But, when you sit back, and read about people still going bonkers over speaker systems like the L100, something like half a century later, as well as all his other designs before, during and after, the man is, without a doubt, A LIVING MONUMENT!

JBL, was more than fortunate as a company, as this one particular company has had so many of the very best audio artisans throughout time, from their beginning to the present. And this is what I call HISTORY!


:cheers:

cooky1257
09-10-2010, 02:53 PM
I feel sure Mr Timbers would be the first to share these accolades and acknowledge the sterling work put in by the other members of his design teams over the years too.

The future of JBL must truly be built on the shoulders of giants.
Cooky

4313B
09-10-2010, 03:30 PM
There's a sense of needing to do something to recognize the genius behind so many systems that give me and others so much pleasure. This is especially true considering the near extinction of JBL at the Harman Campus in Northridge. He (and others no doubt) should be recognized while still a part of Harman, not after the whole thing is flushed. I was actually thinking about a number of ways this could be done, including maybe hosting an event where the man and many of his systems could be in the same place. Hmm. We'll see...Now that would be something! :yes:

A person such as Greg Timbers has to smile when he reads forums like these, his recent flagship creations are considered to be without peer, and that is a huge testament to him within itself.It sure beats some of the other stuff he's read!

JBLAddict
09-10-2010, 04:22 PM
Doug, just wondering if you could estimate when you're going to disassemble the entire speaker and show all the components laid out on a table, you know like you do with all your sets for the edification of the forum :D

Titanium Dome
09-10-2010, 07:38 PM
Doug, just wondering if you could estimate when you're going to disassemble the entire speaker and show all the components laid out on a table, you know like you do with all your sets for the edification of the forum :D

Uh, that's probably not going to happen. :no: :)

That, too is the end of an era. Notice, I didn't do this disassembly with the One Array system. I just couldn't bring myself to risk messing up something just to satisfy my curiosity. With these K2s, it's double caution for me. I cannot risk dropping, scratching, chipping, puncturing, breaking anything on these babies.

I can accept the fact that the cabinets have some small defects, because I didn't do it. I can blame that on someone else's screw up. :no_wag: But, man, if I ever effed these things up, I'd be kicking myself for a long, long time.

If something breaks, then that's another story, but for now I'm not going to be the guy who breaks it.

richluvsound
09-10-2010, 10:38 PM
:eek:
Doug, just wondering if you could estimate when you're going to disassemble the entire speaker and show all the components laid out on a table, you know like you do with all your sets for the edification of the forum :D



And pray tell what would one do with such images ....... I really don't think Doug should enable your addiction in this manner. Being a self confessed addict you should be grateful to have such supportive friends :D

Rich

timc
09-11-2010, 01:10 AM
There's a sense of needing to do something to recognize the genius behind so many systems that give me and others so much pleasure. This is especially true considering the near extinction of JBL at the Harman Campus in Northridge. He (and others no doubt) should be recognized while still a part of Harman, not after the whole thing is flushed. I was actually thinking about a number of ways this could be done, including maybe hosting an event where the man and many of his systems could be in the same place. Hmm. We'll see...

My suggestion would be to host this in cooperation with Erling Neby. Then all the great JBL's would be in one place. AND i would be able to attend.

Hoerninger
09-11-2010, 04:28 AM
... the genius behind so many systems ...
This quality drove me to this forum and it is what I have wanted to show my pupils.



...
An important aspect for me was to show the pupils that good craftmanship comes to a design which fullfills its goal for many years.


____________
Peter :)

JBLAddict
09-11-2010, 10:46 AM
:eek:



And pray tell what would one do with such images ....... I really don't think Doug should enable your addiction in this manner. Being a self confessed addict you should be grateful to have such supportive friends :D

Rich


J.A. (JBL Anonymous!)

Titanium Dome
09-11-2010, 12:40 PM
apparently, the big grinning smiley face did not convey the humor in the request, let me retract the misguided joke referencing what was done on the <fraction of the price> L-series and P-Series before anyone continues to get needlessly offended....geesh

Er, I think Rich was pulling your leg (and your moniker), too. :yes: He's one of the most inquisitive guys there is. :)

In any event, not knowing if/where/when/how much/etc. I would get a part if I mucked one up, I'm taking the admittedly uncharacteristic "safe" route. Maybe once I get some Everest IIs :eek: :D :no:, then I'll take a whack at opening up the K2s. :)

JBLAddict
09-11-2010, 01:43 PM
misguided response on my part, all's good....let's keep the K2 goodness rolling:applaud:

richluvsound
09-11-2010, 01:53 PM
Guy's,

I have been told my humour can be a little dry :o: No fire them up so we all can hear um !

Rich

Titanium Dome
09-11-2010, 07:31 PM
Guy's,

I have been told my humour can be a little dry :o: No fire them up so we all can hear um !

Rich

I have the taste of Dover chalk in my mouth. :rotfl:

Titanium Dome
09-11-2010, 07:57 PM
Huikyong went to the store today while I worked in the yard and eventually found myself in the garage pulling out amps and preamps. First, I hooked them up in the garage to my test mule XPL160s, then took some in to slip into the K2 system.

While I was swapping preamps, I was setting up the Synthesis SDP-5 (Lexicon MC-8) when she came home, happy with her treasure. After navigating the menus and getting everything set to 2-channel analog bypass, I'd started a Joe Cocker CD, so that was playing when she came in.

Usually she asks, "Can you turn that down, please?" This has been a sore point sometimes, so I just naturally lower the volume to avoid friction. I lowered it this time, and she commented, "Don't turn it down; I want to hear it." I turned it up a bit, and she requested, "More."

:eek: :confused:

Well, okay!

The SDP-5 is obviously a newer and higher quality unit than the modest Soundcraftsmen P100. Of course, I knew that. The weird thing is, she knew that, too. "That sounds different, even better. What did you do?" I started to explain, but it was a rhetorical question, and here eyes glazed over as I spoke.

I shut up and let the music speak, and her attention returned. I continued to go in and out of the house to the garage; she sat through the whole album.

Unfortunately, I didn't dare stop to swap in other equipment while she listened. There's no point in breaking the spell. I have a couple more amps on tap, plus now I want to bring up the Citation 5.0 to see if it beats the SDP-5.

With the SDP-5, everything is cleaner and there's more "air" (I've heard audio nuts use that term) and lightness in the HF. It was a little strident in the P100 by comparison. Plus, the soundstage cleaned up a lot and more depth was added as well.

There's more bottom end, too, which presents me with a need to keep moving the speakers to find the right place. Right now they're 14" from the front wall and 8" from the sides. I find they sound best when I sit on the coffee table, which means I need to get them out more, but there are some challenges with getting them out too far. At about 20" I'll lose the short wall next to the left speaker, while the right will still have a wall next to it.

It looks like I need to get to a 10x10x10 triangle, maybe slightly larger if possible, for critical listening. I might have to sneak the couch forward 6 inches or a foot, and see if she says anything.

I don't want to jeopardize her acceptance or mess up her positive experience by pushing too far too fast. :no:

jblsound
09-12-2010, 07:00 AM
It looks like I need to get to a 10x10x10 triangle, maybe slightly larger if possible, for critical listening. I might have to sneak the couch forward 6 inches or a foot, and see if she says anything.

I've found over the years a triangle somewhere between 8x8x8 to 8x8x10 to 10x10x10 seems to be best with all the JBLs I have had within in most rooms. I'm currently in an 8x8x10, in this room leaves about 6' to the side walls.

Mr. Widget
09-12-2010, 08:15 AM
I've found over the years a triangle somewhere between 8x8x8 to 8x8x10 to 10x10x10 seems to be best with all the JBLs I have had within in most rooms. I'm currently in an 8x8x10, in this room leaves about 6' to the side walls.I have found very similar results.


Widget

BMWCCA
09-12-2010, 10:21 AM
I'm in awe of the whole K2 acquisition and discussion. Just beautiful to see and I'm vicariously enjoying the whole roll-out! :applaud:

I can only add that I'm using my 4345s in a 9x9x9 triangle which does provide a sweet-spot but is also satisfying off-center when there's more than one listener. The boxes are set at something greater than a 60° angle (off the back wall) but leave no hole in the sound-stage and don't seem to split the soloist.

Titanium Dome
09-12-2010, 02:56 PM
Looks like 9x10x10 is about as good as it gets for now.

I moved the seats forward 6" or so, and it doesn't look like they've been pushed too awkwardly into the room. This also allowed me to move the rag rug forward an entire foot, which covers a little more of the hardwood floor without ruining the look she likes.

The speakers also moved into the room more, so they're nearly 22" from the front wall and 8" from the sides. That leaves 9' + or - between their centers, and with the right toe in, they both hit the same spot at 10' away.

Titanium Dome
09-12-2010, 03:20 PM
I messed around with a few other pieces of equipment and ended up almost where I started.

The bridged, four-channel, high current Fosgate Audionics 4125 amp is still the choice at this time. I still need to pull out that Hafler SR2600 to see what 600W/ch will do, but that requires more time and effort.

Since some folks have advised I might want to try a sub with these, I decided to drag up my unused L8400P and hook it up. :rotfl: Yes, I know, but read on.

By reverting back to the SDP-5, I was able to run a couple of CD/DVD players at a time and compare them, as well as compare their DACs to the SDP-5's DACs. I still didn't pull the Oppo BDP-83SE out of the rack downstairs, but of all the others, my Oppo 980H has the best sounding of the player DACs when using analog pass through on the SDP-5.

However, taking it out of my MCH set up leaves me with nowhere to play SACDs except down in the Two Jims, and I prefer my surround music on the Performance Series, so I was hoping not to have to make a choice. Short term, I didn't.

When I switched to optical, I really couldn't tell any difference between players as you might expect, and since I could compare the player's DAC's with the pre/pro's DACs with the push of a button, it was clear the the SDP-5's DACs were easily as good as any player I have (not counting the BDP-83SE yet).

So short term: optical cable out of player and SDP-5 does the DAC work.

Then it was time to work on the subwoofer theory. Again, the SDP-5 came through, letting me choose a 30 Hz or 40 Hz crossover point to the sub, so the K2 could play all the way down its power range, which starts to drop off around 50 Hz.

The SDP-5 also allows a push of the button switching between 2-channel (no sub) and L7 Music (2-channel and sub), so it was simple to compare with and without. After about an hour of constant switching and tweaking, I got it to the point where the sub seems well integrated. Moving back and forth from sub to no sub is almost indiscernible.

Now I can try lots of different types of music and raise or lower the sub level and crossover point (in the SDP-5; the sub crossover is disabled) to see if there's an appreciable benefit.

If it proves to be a good idea, I'll take the time to install an HTPS400 and see its effect as well. It's a more pleasing sub than the L8400P, but in the limited range of under 40-50 Hz, I'm not sure it matters.

At this point I don't think I'd care for or need a bigger sub. If so, there are LE14H-1, LE14h-3, and 2235 based subs in the house. For purity's sake, I may just dismiss the idea and stick with no sub, too.

Ian Mackenzie
09-15-2010, 01:13 AM
Hi Doug,

I have been following the thread and my suggestion is to let your ears adjust for a month or two and then decided on some changes.

From my own experience I recommend you invest in a power amplifier with finesse and real power.

Why? Most of the audibly harsh distortion happens in the power amp, typically at 1 watt and in the HF area.

With such an accurate loudspeaker this is painfully obvious.

If the amp is bad and 95% are bad then no amount of up market dac quality is going to help.

To give you an idea the ML that the show was not in the same league as the Passlabs amp.

No doubt you heard the E2 and the mid tones and resolving power.

Most mass market consumer amps are not going to cut the mustard with the 9900.

A quality power amp will then allow you to make informed choices about other components

Given what has been discussed have you considered a dac/pre like the Bel canto DAC1 or a CD player with dac inputs.

There is a trend toward downloading of most frequently played music and on that basis the most played tunes can be played on demand or streamed off the interent (or stored on a PC). While a critical quality recording might stored on a PC hard drive or played on a high quality CD player.

If you related this to the 9900 minimalist in terms of a system is probably going to give you the best performance. So you could spend 70% on a great power amp and 30% on a good source.

I have been using the Pass Labs X250.5 on my Tad driver based system and it is out of this world in terms of accuracy and musical enjoyment. (There are some good re conditioned deals from Renohifi).

There are also some nice offerings in terms of CD players that also can be used as a dac and combined Dac preamps that will not break the bank.

JBLAddict
09-15-2010, 08:14 AM
wow, I'm not sure I ever want to be part of the audio world that is able to distinguish a ML amp as "out of the league" of an $8K Pass Labs amp....:eek: by those standards the rest of us are using Akai boom boxes from Target:p

4313B
09-15-2010, 08:22 AM
by those standards the rest of us are using Akai boom boxes from Target:pAnd that's a problem?

:rotfl:

scott fitlin
09-15-2010, 08:41 AM
And that's a problem?

:rotfl:Of course it is, because I got my boom box at ACME FRESH MARKET! But IF Target has a better deal, I want to know! :bouncy:

Mr. Widget
09-15-2010, 09:49 AM
wow, I'm not sure I ever want to be part of the audio world that is able to distinguish a ML amp as "out of the league" of an $8K Pass Labs amp....:eek: by those standards the rest of us are using Akai boom boxes from Target:pFrom reading the system descriptions that folks have posted here over the years, I think most people are listening to those Akai boom boxes. Then there are those who surprise you as they are using some uber gear and a pair of L100s...

You don't have to spend more on your audio system than you did on your car to have a stellar system, and simply dumping a ton of cash is no guarantee of stellar sound... but a lot of careful listening and choosing is required to get the most out of a system at every price point... and blindly accepting anyone's opinion on specifics is rarely a good idea.


Widget

Titanium Dome
09-15-2010, 10:10 AM
From reading the system descriptions that folks have posted here over the years, I think most people are listening to those Akai boom boxes. Then there are those who surprise you as they are using some uber gear and a pair of L100s...

You don't have to spend more on your audio system than you did on your car to have a stellar system, and simply dumping a ton of cash is no guarantee of stellar sound... but a lot of careful listening and choosing is required to get the most out of a system at every price point... and blindly accepting anyone's opinion on specifics is rarely a good idea.


Widget


Well, geez, I was listening to you... :D

Seriously, I think Ian's and Rich's advice is good, and it's a path I'm following, which is slow and steady. The urge, which I really do understand, is to get it all now and get it right! Nonetheless, I waited and waited for a chance like the K2s, and I'll be doing some more of the waiting game as I go forward with them

Some of this is driven by $$ of course, and some of it is driven by thoroughness. I still haven't listened to everything I already own that might be good with them. Once I hit the highest point I can with what I've got (and throw Grumpy's Proceed in the mix), then I will have a basis upon which to narrow choices.

I've contacted a few folks about getting 30 day trials on certain pieces of equipment, but that likely won't happen for weeks yet. I'm still trying to figure out where I want to end up. The end point probably is a sophisticated music server dishing out bit-perfect files, with perhaps a CD player on the side. TT? Probably not, but who knows for sure? Almost certainly not...

The music server system could be extremely minimalist, and could serve the whole house actually. There's a ton of this stuff out there, lots of it crap, but some of it is very intriguing and getting better with each iteration. Maybe by January 2011 at the big shows there will be a compelling product.

In the meantime, read the next post. Perhaps it's good enough already.

Titanium Dome
09-15-2010, 10:13 AM
So I was down in the music/fitness room doing some Wii Fit late afternoon when Huiky arrived home and came down to see me. We talked about her day and some general small talk, then she suggested we stay in for dinner (with me cooking ;) ) rather than go out.

After a while we went up to the main floor, and she agreed to chop some peppers and onions, while I started on everything else. Before she began, she coyly suggested, "Do you want to play some music? Play whatever you want."

I replied, "Really?"

She retracted her offer just a bit. "Well, maybe not anything... I know some of your music. Just something I like."

she clearly meant on the K2, not on the Performance system, so I obliged.

So I pulled out the Joe Cocker DTS disc, which is a favorite of hers. One nice thing about having the SDP-5 in the K2 chain right now is that it'll play DTS through Logic7 in 2.1. It sounded as good as a DTS disc can.

She danced a little, sang a little, chopped a little, and when we were finished cooking we ate, accompanied by some French bread, Camembert cheese, and a bottle of Shiraz.

We had a delightful time, talking, laughing, listening to Joe, and afterward...

Ah, K2, master of romance! You have brought a new dimension of spontaneity to our lives.

richluvsound
09-15-2010, 10:16 AM
:blink:


Wouldn't life be dull without opinions......If I owned either one of those products I would be happy . If I was given one, I would most certainly hope I could be grateful and ,above all, humble about my good fortune.
I haven't heard ML ,but I do think they are beautifully designed . I have heard Pass Labs , they are both beautiful and superb sounding machines .

Rich

Mr. Widget
09-15-2010, 10:37 AM
Well, geez, I was listening to you... :DI said opinions on specifics... as in if you buy a Model X-1 from brand ZZZ, you will find audio nirvana. BS!

Now, if someone suggests treating your room, or trading up from that Akai boom box, well... that's good advice. ;)


Widget

jblsound
09-15-2010, 11:20 AM
So I pulled out the Joe Cocker DTS disc, which is a favorite of hers. One nice thing about having the SDP-5 in the K2 chain right now is that it'll play DTS through Logic7 in 2.1. It sounded as good as a DTS disc can.

I've got that disc, but I always play it using DVD-A, I think pure DVD-A always sounds better than the DTS compressed.

richluvsound
09-15-2010, 11:54 AM
So I was down in the music/fitness room doing some Wii Fit late afternoon when Huiky arrived home and came down to see me. We talked about her day and some general small talk, then she suggested we stay in for dinner (with me cooking ;) ) rather than go out.

After a while we went up to the main floor, and she agreed to chop some peppers and onions, while I started on everything else. Before she began, she coyly suggested, "Do you want to play some music? Play whatever you want."

I replied, "Really?"

She retracted her offer just a bit. "Well, maybe not anything... I know some of your music. Just something I like."

she clearly meant on the K2, not on the Performance system, so I obliged.

So I pulled out the Joe Cocker DTS disc, which is a favorite of hers. One nice thing about having the SDP-5 in the K2 chain right now is that it'll play DTS through Logic7 in 2.1. It sounded as good as a DTS disc can.

She danced a little, sang a little, chopped a little, and when we were finished cooking we ate, accompanied by some French bread, Camembert cheese, and a bottle of Shiraz.

We had a delightful time, talking, laughing, listening to Joe, and afterward...

Ah, K2, master of romance! You have brought a new dimension of spontaneity to our lives.

This is nice mate ...... sounds like you caught a very good one there dude :):)

Hoerninger
09-15-2010, 12:10 PM
Ah, K2, master of romance! You have brought a new dimension of spontaneity to our lives.
oh,what a component music can bring to live :) :thmbsup: :bouncy:
____________
Peter ;)

cooky1257
09-15-2010, 12:33 PM
Music is the food of luurrrve.
Thankfully my car stereo is enough-if I had to wait till I owned K2's I'd die a miserable old man:D

Titanium Dome
09-15-2010, 03:51 PM
Music is the food of luurrrve.
Thankfully my car stereo is enough-if I had to wait till I owned K2's I'd die a miserable old man:D

I'm a lot uglier than you. The system has to be really nice. :)

Those K2s in person in that room are very, very attractive. :D

cooky1257
09-15-2010, 04:21 PM
I'm just trying to disguise my envy:D:D:D

Titanium Dome
09-16-2010, 02:03 PM
I've got that disc, but I always play it using DVD-A, I think pure DVD-A always sounds better than the DTS compressed.

Mine is DTS only.

Titanium Dome
09-16-2010, 02:04 PM
Want to hear K2 S9900?

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?29423-Dome-s-house-JBL-demonstrations-in-LA&p=295644#post295644

Mr. Widget
09-16-2010, 11:34 PM
Well, geez, I was listening to you... :D

Seriously, I think Ian's and Rich's advice is good, and it's a path I'm following, which is slow and steady. The urge, which I really do understand, is to get it all now and get it right! Nonetheless, I waited and waited for a chance like the K2s, and I'll be doing some more of the waiting game as I go forward with them

Some of this is driven by $$ of course, and some of it is driven by thoroughness. I still haven't listened to everything I already own that might be good with them. Once I hit the highest point I can with what I've got (and throw Grumpy's Proceed in the mix), then I will have a basis upon which to narrow choices.

I've contacted a few folks about getting 30 day trials on certain pieces of equipment, but that likely won't happen for weeks yet. I'm still trying to figure out where I want to end up. The end point probably is a sophisticated music server dishing out bit-perfect files, with perhaps a CD player on the side. TT? Probably not, but who knows for sure? Almost certainly not...

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense."-Buddha

richluvsound
09-17-2010, 04:07 AM
Common sense being extremely uncommon that is !

Opinion based on experience and evidence is just that ,an opinion .Where as, opinion based on hearsay and a singular perspective, is just ignorance. Now this ' IS ' indeed, common sense !:D

But , thats just an opinion ; of which, this forum will never feign mal-nurishment ......'FACT' :p

Rich,

jblsound
09-17-2010, 04:35 AM
Mine is DTS only.

Strange, I don't have any DTS discs that don't have the pure DVD-A section. If the jewel case has the DVD audio stamped into it there is a pure DVD-A track. Night Calls?
If played thru the analogue bypass, should be dvd-a.

timc
09-17-2010, 06:08 AM
Common sense being extremely uncommon that is !

Opinion based on experience and evidence is just that ,an opinion .Where as, opinion based on hearsay and a singular perspective, is just ignorance. Now this ' IS ' indeed, common sense !:D

But , thats just an opinion ; of which, this forum will never feign mal-nurishment ......'FACT' :p

Rich,

Geez Rich...You alsmost made my head explode :blink:

Hoerninger
09-17-2010, 06:37 AM
... my head explode :blink:
... But truth is simple. :yes:
___________
Peter :)

timc
09-17-2010, 06:56 AM
... But truth is simple. :yes:
___________
Peter :)


I don't think it is actually, but that is another discussion for another time.

Hoerninger
09-17-2010, 07:01 AM
Strange, I don't have any DTS discs that don't have the pure DVD-A section.
All of my "DTS 5.1 Music discs" are CDs as the player indicates.

The player indicates "DVD-Audio" when it is.

And then there are the Video DVDs often with DTS, PCM (and Dolby).
:confused: ?
___________
Peter

boputnam
09-17-2010, 08:20 AM
The K2 s are so effortless even at moderate volumes that we could talk as we normally do at dinner, and still the music played on in excellent fidelity....Nice quote, Doug. Excellent appraisal. I know I liked them at the show - glad they found a proper home.

Your description reminds me of the awe I still have at the full range tonality of the 2245 in the 4345 - it is not something I've heard any other driver do so well.

I might have to plan a visit to your listening rooms - one of these days...

Titanium Dome
09-19-2010, 03:44 PM
Grumpy and I spent 4 to 5 hours taking the K2s from my rudimentary set up to a state of "getting close" yesterday. Getting close is a relative designation, since even in the rudimentary set up they were of holy-cow-that's-amazing-blow-my-mind-are-you-kidding-me status if compared to most of the other stuff I've got around here. Key ingredients are two good ears (his) and lots of patience and perseverance.

We started with the amps on hand. After swapping and listening, we agreed that the preferred amp from those I brought in is the Hafler SR2600. Yep, it's a pro amp, 600W/ch, 5 Hz to 100 kHz, balanced, and kind of ugly. It stood out for its powerful control of the woofer and its clean sound from top to bottom. Grumpy reminded me that we were only using a few Watts most of the time, then he started doing some calcs out loud which kind of escaped me as I zz-zz-zz-Z-ZZ-ZZZ! Huh? Oh yeah. ;) (Kidding, Dave) It sounded good.

We might have had a slightly better result in the high end with the Fosgate Audionics 4125, but I actually couldn't hear any difference, and we both definitely heard the improvement in the K2's bottom end with the Hafler.

After that, we swapped out the SDP-5 for his Proceed pre. This meant we depended on the DAC in the Panasonic XP50 instead of the SDP-5's, since the Proceed is strictly analog. With that change, the HF was less bright and IMO less strident. I thought in the music mode the SDP-5 was too hot up top, so I welcomed the change. Grumpy can make his own comments on that.

Then we spent an hour or two moving the K2s forward, backward, forward. We also toed-in, toed-out, toed-in. We moved the Presence and HF controls on the K2 (+ or - 0.5 dB max). We listened and listened. Dave occupied the key seat, since he could hear well out of both ears and is an experienced listener. I figured once it sounded right to him, we'd be in the game.

At a certain point, we got to where an inch forward or an inch backward had a noticeable effect on the sound, particularly the LF extension. Small changes forward, backward, or in the angle of toe-in were audible, even to me. We knew we'd found an important spot and spent a while making what some would consider ridiculously small adjustments. He made some final (and unobserved by me) adjustments on the K2s back controls, and, well, we were there! :bouncy:

The whole thing reminded me of the set up for the L7s that I have gone though more than once, but the result was far more dramatic and so clear. It's simply amazing how a little placement adjustment changes things.

Now it's time to live with them for a few days to see how I settle in with them. One thing that will take some getting used to is how bad some recordings sound, especially some of my favorite pop music. The K2s do not cut over-compressed, artificially boosted mixes any slack. Some things I'll just need to listen to on lesser systems.

Afterward, we went to the 710 Grill for beers, an elk burger, and level 2 of their famous chicken wings, in this case Scorcher plus. Next time, it's the Ring of Fire. We both had some sweat running down our brows.

Then Grumpy packed up and went home.

Later, I'll reveal what happened next.

BMWCCA
09-19-2010, 03:52 PM
Later, I'll reveal what happened next.


Using your wife's words, I'm guessing. :thmbsup:

Please keep it G-rated! ;)

grumpy
09-19-2010, 05:18 PM
... noting that level 2 was the penultimate in wing hotness,
not one up from the weakest. I'm -quite- sure I understand
the rationale for the hottest variety being called "Ring of
Fire"

Ok then.

I wasn't surprised the the big Hafler amp grabbed the K2s
by the cojones... I was a little surprised that it matched
the Fosgates up top. Interestingly, other than on a -very-
few tracks, the need for a sub just wasn't there for me.

The swap from the SDP-5 to the Proceed PRE, was initially
puzzling, as it seemed some top end was lost ... Longer
listening (all of the remaining hours) was illuminating...
We -could- listen for hours, where the SDP seemed a bit
more detailed... but sort of like an over bright or
contrasty picture, it was tiring after a short period... The PRE
in this combination, did not. I was bummed when it was
time to leave ... I still had more discs! :)

It would still be interesting to hear how the K2s resolve
with a potentially higher quality source

Titanium Dome
09-19-2010, 10:14 PM
Later, I'll reveal what happened next.


After Grumpy left, I cleaned up the litter of amps, cables, and other stuff, then Huiky said she was hungry, so we went out for Korean food. On the way home she suggested we get a movie, so we stopped at Target, rushed in, bought a couple of cheap Blurays, and went home to watch Speed. (Yes, really, and I enjoyed it! ;))

When we went back up to the main floor, she said, "Let's listen to some music. I want to hear what you guys did." So I threw on Saxophonic (Dave Koz) and we started to listen. It really was very, very good, like the first time I'd ever heard it, even though I've played it scores of times.

About two songs in she said, "Let's drink some wine." Being a romantic I replied, "No, it's too late." Of course I immediately knew how stupid that was and recoverd by blurting out, "Let's have champagne instead." Thankfully I had a bottle in the beverage fridge. :o:

So, we sipped champagne, snuggled a little, and remarked a lot about how good the K2s were.

"I really like to listen to music." :confused:

So we listened for two hours.

---------------

When we came home this evening, the first order of business was to sit down and listen to music again. I picked up Brian Wilsons' Gershwin Reimagined CD, so I put it on. It was weird, like being back in college and bringing a new LP to the dorm, putting it on the Dual 1219 and listening to it through the L100s with my friends. Now I was doing that with my best friend 40 years later. And still listening to JBLs.

I thought about how the K2s had wrought a significant shift in our evenings. Almost magically they transformed our routine into something shared and enjoyed.

That's what makes the K2s in music and the One Array system in movies such a worthwhile investment: the shared joy and the sense of personal community they create when done right and used correctly. It's nice to show them off, I suppose, but the day-to-day utility is what really matters: do they make our lives better?

Undoubtedly.

Hoerninger
09-19-2010, 11:43 PM
. but that is another discussion for another time.
In short it is a question of a calm mind and meditation. This forum is the wrong place, it should be discussed face to face. t is not a question of time.
___________
Peter :)

scott fitlin
09-19-2010, 11:54 PM
It's nice to show them off, I suppose, but the day-to-day utility is what really matters: do they make our lives better?

Undoubtedly.Agreed. You got value in these speakers. Many speakers on the market that sound good, are technically good, but NOT many that convey such a sense of emotional involvement. Great music through a system like this, is what the legends are all about, and I believe that music through your speakers does get you, and others to achieve emotional connection, as well as just plain enjoyment.

I'm betting these may be your last speakers! In these you got value, a value that will be hard to beat, NOW or in the future, these are the keepers.

And I believe in the things your describing, too. YES great music through a system like this can and does improve our lives, and well being!


:thmbsup:

richluvsound
09-20-2010, 12:05 AM
Thanks for that Doug.

Your quite a wordsworth on your day:) I can imagine Mr Lansing smiling away as he reads your words too ; joyful in knowing that his hard work and sentiment are still, both , honoured and shared respectively.

I was reading through some very early threads yesterday researching my next project. It was so much fun. I smiled laughed and ,ofcourse, tut-tutted as I renewed that sense of wonder that I felt in 2006 when I first joined the forum.

Wow, so much has happened in these few short years. We have lost dear and highly respected members and friends ,jobs, relationships and suffered the worst economical crash since the 30's.
Serious ,and in some cases fatal illness has been at the forefront of many lives here . Understandably , the focus has shifted from play to survival for many of us . The air has become cynical and unfriendly , a current of frustration simmers just below the surface fracturing what was once such a fun,friendly and helpful domain.

I ,myself, have not always behaved in a manner that I could be proud of.But , in spite of my arrogance and denial my droppings do stink too.

Is there anyway that shared sense of COMMUNITY can resurface and flourish once again ? I ,for one , miss it greatly .

As for this thread ,well , I would just like to thank Doug for his diary and those that have contributed ( its a bit of an oasis ,all this joy and stuff.
To those that have come here ,gleaned what was needed and left nothing of value in return.......:(
I can say nothing about that really, only that this forum important to some for whatever reason ,please respect it ...

Rich

christo
09-20-2010, 09:58 PM
I’ve been monitoring the thread and enjoying reading Titanium Dome’s enthusiasm for the K2s I went through the much of the same thing when I acquired my K2 S9900’s last February.

We probably had the same idea get ahold of these speakers and hooked them up with our existing gear and things would be good…not so fast.

I’ll tell you the story of the first night the K2s where delivered…

The good gentlemen from the establishment where I made my purchased brought them over, set them up and we started to spin a few songs, after a while my wife came down and had a listen (current disk spinning was Propellerheads – deckanddrumsandrockandroll)…yup had it loud…song ended and she looks over at me and said “Is that it?”…

Well she had a point…for a speaker of that caliber the sound was disappointing I actually sat around in a funk for a few days could not even bring myself to turn them on. The basic problem was the 1500AL-1s where not doing what I knew they could and had hear them doing when I auditioned them.

So the moral of the story…K2s are merciless on your gear they will shine a BIG BRIGHT spotlight on all weak links in the chain, source, preamp, amp, interconnect cable speaker cables…So down the upgrade path I went...

The gear at the time was an Esoteric X-05 as the source (absolutely beautiful machine was sorry to have to part with it) Carver Lightstar Direct Preamp with a Carver Lightstar Reference 2.0 amp (300wpc).

I have to agree with Ian Mackenzie K2s “power amplifier with finesse and real power” then proceed upstream and don’t forget about cables.

I’ll leave you with a little K2 humor, two quotes from the K2 user guide

There is no effective limit to the power handling capabilities of the Project K2 S9900 loudspeakers when driven by consumer audio amplifiers.

Maximum Recommended Amplifier Power: 500 Watts


Seem like a contradiction to me :blink:

Ah…:bouncy: just substitute the word Maximum with Minimum and then things start to sound oh so right.

scott fitlin
09-20-2010, 10:43 PM
OK, that makes sense to me, the 1500AL likes some good current to get it going!

Generally speaking, todays premium woofers fair well with an ampifier that can deliever lots of current and voltage, and you say you heard the K2 sing at the dealers showroom when you first heard them, particularly the 1500AL!

WHAT were they powering the K2 with at the showroom? Didn't the dealer at least try to recommend an amp that was very well suited to driving the K2 for you? In my opinion, I have never met a speaker that wasn't amp sensitive, and usually, there is ONE or two particular amplifiers that make a certain set of speakers perform optimally!

Titanium Dome
09-21-2010, 08:20 AM
Welcome to Lansing Heritage, and thanks for sharing your K2 experience.

I know exactly what you mean by funk. There was no doubt in my mind that the K2s were phenomenal loudspeakers as I heard them at the California Audio Show. However, getting them home and set up was a real test of faith, because they did not give the same impression.

Of course, all is well now and will only get better as I am able to improve the chain piece by piece.

Mr. Widget
09-21-2010, 10:20 AM
I’ll leave you with a little K2 humor, two quotes from the K2 user guide

There is no effective limit to the power handling capabilities of the Project K2 S9900 loudspeakers when driven by consumer audio amplifiers.

Maximum Recommended Amplifier Power: 500 Watts


Seem like a contradiction to me :blink:

Ah…:bouncy: just substitute the word Maximum with Minimum and then things start to sound oh so right.I've read comments like that quite a lot over the years about all manner of speakers.

When I had the K2-S9900s in my home, I used an 80 wpc amp and thought they sounded great. I like realistic levels, but not ear bleeding levels... the K2s are pretty sensitive and would put out peaks of 110dB in my room with that "tiny" amp... I think the quality of the amp is critical, huge reserves of power? I guess... if that is your thing. For me, I can be quite happy with a whole lot less horsepower.

Widget

Titanium Dome
09-21-2010, 01:12 PM
I think damping factor is a key. The Hafler SR2600 has a damping factor >500. That's more important than its 600W/ch power rating.

Sometimes there's a correlation between damping ability and power, but I've heard a lot of high powered amps that couldn't damp worth a darn.

scott fitlin
09-21-2010, 01:37 PM
I think damping factor is a key. The Hafler SR2600 has a damping factor >500. That's more important than its 600W/ch power rating.

Sometimes there's a correlation between damping ability and power, but I've heard a lot of high powered amps that couldn't damp worth a darn.Exactly! And I like my bass tight sounding, and if one uses a amp with a low damping factor, you get, sometimes, a LARGER sounding bottom, but less tight, and agile. With JBL speakers, I have always had great results using amps that have a high damping factor.

For me, it just doesn't matter HOW MUCH bass I have, IF the bass I have is not what I consider musical, and articulate, and agile.

I agree, there is MORE to selecting and matching an amp to your speakers than JUST the POWER rating!

rusty jefferson
09-21-2010, 02:06 PM
When I had the K2-S9900s in my home, I used an 80 wpc amp and thought they sounded great. I like realistic levels, but not ear bleeding levels... the K2s are pretty sensitive and would put out peaks of 110dB in my room with that "tiny" amp... I think the quality of the amp is critical, huge reserves of power? I guess... if that is your thing. For me, I can be quite happy with a whole lot less horsepower.

Widget

I have to agree widget here. A (relatively) small but high quality power amp will give much better detail and nuance, particularly in the midrange and higher frequencies, and still be able to control the woofers in 'normal' listening than any high power pro amp. Most amps like this run in class 'A' for the first few watts, and can sound amazing with vocalist at say 85-90 db.

What you're paying for with those big 'audiophile' monoblock amps nobody can afford is the quality of the sound (components) plus the horse power. Start with a small quality amp and use the sub till you can afford some behemoths.

richluvsound
09-21-2010, 02:57 PM
Folks,

This was the best sounding ( least fuss 25 watt per ch Class A push pull ) amp I had running my 4345's and they could give me 110 db, All night long at the party I had to christen them . For the party I had my 4435's - Bryston 3bst and these going . I remember doing a check and standing in the middle of my studio giggling as a watched my jeans move with the air that was moving in there ... What bloody distortion ?

christo
09-21-2010, 05:22 PM
OK, that makes sense to me, the 1500AL likes some good current to get it going!

Generally speaking, todays premium woofers fair well with an ampifier that can deliever lots of current and voltage, and you say you heard the K2 sing at the dealers showroom when you first heard them, particularly the 1500AL!

WHAT were they powering the K2 with at the showroom? Didn't the dealer at least try to recommend an amp that was very well suited to driving the K2 for you? In my opinion, I have never met a speaker that wasn't amp sensitive, and usually, there is ONE or two particular amplifiers that make a certain set of speakers perform optimally!

When I actually made the decision to purchase a pair of K2s I had a long chat with the dealer describing what I had and why I was looking at the K2s. In 1980 I picked up a pair of 2215a/LE85/H91/L91 with LX-13s and built my own cabinets. The first cabinets I built were, let's just say nothing to write home about. At the time had an HK Citation 17 with a pair of HK Citation 19s amps. Around the mid-eighties I got into a conversation with a colleague at work discussing our passion for stereos and after I described the type of speakers I had built he said he had something for me. The next day he turns up with the 1974 Altec Lansing Enclosure Manual, which I spent my lunch hour photocopying. The next set of cabinets I made actually had tuned ports, very pleased with the results they lasted right up until the K2s arrived.

I auditioned the K2s with a BRYSTON BP26 PreAmp, BCD-1 CD player, and a pair of 7B SST2 amps. Spent 3 hour listening to them (love at first hearing) the K2s were everything I was looking for. I had been thinking of upgrading my system for quite some time as I always wanted a speaker manufactured by JBL (yup I was hooked on 15" drivers with horns) not just components with the final cabinet making and assemble done in my basement.

Due to the cost of the K2s I was not in the market for a preamp or amplifier upgrades, I really though the Carver gear would hold up. The dealer made a few suggestions obviously the Brystons and Krell, possible upgrade paths by mixing and matching various other components. To be honest I really wasn't listening I just wanted the K2s I had waited 30 years to buy myself a pair of JBLs! (only the second set of speakers I have owned)

I have the highest regard for the dealer the Bryston setup used for the K2 audition was rather modest based upon other gear in the shop that could have been used.

I wrote the check that night and have no regrets.

richluvsound
09-21-2010, 05:36 PM
You are indeed a lucky man ,

Some pictures for us to droool over would be brilliant if you have time !
:applaud:
Rich

scott fitlin
09-21-2010, 07:40 PM
Bryston is good stuff. It happens that Bryston many times, outperforms gear costing more. You get no argument on Bryston from me!

4313B
09-21-2010, 08:17 PM
Anyone have any experience with the Bryston B100 SST?

What happened with all the guys building their own amps? I thought people were doing Pass Labs projects and such?


At the time had an HK Citation 17 with a pair of HK Citation 19s amps.Same. I eventually upgraded to the newer Citation 21 and 22 and have had them ever since. I also had a Citation XX for awhile. I'm not sure if there is anything even today that could complete with that thing.

Mr. Widget
09-22-2010, 09:48 AM
Anyone have any experience with the Bryston B100 SST?A very nice unit. No BS, just a straight up well made (20 year warranty) integrated that has the power to do what most of us need. The remote is a nice billet of aluminum but a fairly expensive option.

Sonically it is not quite at the level of Bryston's TOTL separates, but it is damned close.


Widget

4313B
09-22-2010, 10:35 AM
Sonically it is not quite at the level of Bryston's TOTL separates, but it is damned close.Probably perfectly adequate for 95% of the media available.

Titanium Dome
09-25-2010, 09:00 PM
Grumpy brought his Audio Reseach pre to the meet at my house today--a nice, clean analog unit. The K2s sounded exceptional, and eventually everyone was around them by the end of the meet. It's a great complement to the K2s, though he'd have to tell you the model number.

grumpy
09-26-2010, 04:10 PM
Hybrid LS-2B. Rather minimalist, and old-ish, but a notch above the Proceed PRE.
Altogether, the system sounded pretty damn good.

That the K2's allowed one to hear the difference is
testament enough... I'm sure there is more to be had
from these speakers (fortunately or unfortunately for Dome)...
Ok, fortunately... Definitely :)

Dome's open house was really a nice time, and with good company.