My "New" 4345 Clones [Archive] - Lansing Heritage Forums

BMWCCA

01-27-2009, 11:26 AM

Mike Caldwell

01-27-2009, 12:14 PM

The passive transformer version will give complete isolation between your pre amp and the amp. That would help get rid of any ground hum problems you have....if any in the first place. The transformer depending on the quality could be a weak link in the signal path, it could start to saturate with high level low frequency input signal, it could limit the frequency response at the extremes. Could is the key word. The active version would not give you isolation but you may not need it. Frequency response may be wider.

I would try it without any of the input plug in modules and use either the 1/4 jacks or the terminal strip. On the outputs of the crossover try it first using pin 1 to the ring of a 1/4 inch plug or to the ground terminal on the amp and pin 2 to the tip of the 1/4 inch plug or to the + terminal on the input strip. The other way is to tie pin 3 and pin 1 on the XLR together inside the XLR plug that is plugged into the crossover.

The PS200 and PS400 are basically Crown DC300 and D150 power amps. I used many of them with active crossovers using the pin 1 and 3 tied together method.

Let us know how it works.
Mike Caldwell
www.mikecaldwellaudioproductions.com (http://www.mikecaldwellaudioproductions.com)

Fred Sanford

01-27-2009, 12:14 PM

This looked like as good a place as any to ask this question:

My "new" 4345s have the custom CC networks. I have an Ashly XR-1001 on the way. The photo shows it to be the new "graphite" version with rear-mounted power switch and therefore I presume the auto-balanced XLR jacks.

What I'm hoping to use are two Crown amps: PS-400, and PS-200. I also have two Crown PS-MOD/X adapters to allow XLR input to the amps. I'm a bit of an electronics idiot and don't understand the difference between the PS-MOD/X and the PS-MOD/A. The manual says both allow balanced input but the X is passive using a transformer while the A uses "active circuitry". Which is preferred? What are the advantages of either over the other? I have been offered a pair of PS-MOD/A's as well, I just can't tell if I need them.

In general, is there an advantage to using balanced inputs if my runs between the Ashly and the Crowns is only a couple of feet? I won't have balanced output from the pre-amp anyway so I'll be either using the 1/4 TRS Ashly inputs or an adapter to the XLR. What is required to connect to the Ashly properly from a pre-amp with RCA jacks?

This is most likely the first of many questions I'll have, but it's critical to me just to get started on the right foot. Thanks in advance for your replies.

Check the Ashly manual to see what it says re: going two-conductor/unbalanced into a TRS jack, some don't recommend using a TS plug but instead wiring up a TRS with only two connections. Feel free to link to a manual or e-mail one to me if you want.

I also have tons of RCA/XLR/TRS/etc. adaptors, let me know if you'd like me to bring over an assortment for you or make any specific cables to test things out. I need to make a C'Ville trip in the near future, anyway.

My guess is that an active MOD/As may have cleaner/wider-freq specs than the passive, but that seems like an easy thing to swap later. Possibly also something you wouldn't care as much about unless the feed lines to the amps were long distances.

je

boputnam

01-28-2009, 06:16 PM

...I suppose it really isn't going to make any difference unless I pick up a hum somewhere along the way.

Mike and Fred got it nailed. I agree with Fred - I'll bet those old Crowns are not going to "like" a TRS plug - the Ring may not be in the right position to hit that second contact. I've run into this before. You should try the TS version, first. That may work fine. Or, go with that winkie 11-pin connector...

btw... Enjoy those bigboys. Do let us know.

BMWCCA

01-28-2009, 08:20 PM

btw... Enjoy those bigboys. Do let us know.
I'm sure you'll be hearing from me! Thanks.

After all the reading I've done on LH, I'd have to say your contributions were instrumental in my decision to pop for them.

My wife just refers to everyone here as a co-instigator. ;)

boputnam

01-28-2009, 09:08 PM

After all the reading I've done on LH, I'd have to say your contributions were instrumental in my decision to pop for them. Aw, shucks, Dorothy! :o:

I should retire - my work is done! However, your work is just beginning. The 4345 is not user friendly. It's performance benefits from careful set-up and knowledgeable system tuning. These are not trivail tasks, and your ability to execute them will improve with every iteration you try. Do keep trying and keep challenging yourself. And that, one day, will almsot certainly lead you to some TAD TD-2002's. :) You will never reach the limit, me knows...

My wife just refers to everyone here as a co-instigator. ;)Yeah, pretty much...

John

01-28-2009, 09:16 PM

My wife just refers to everyone here as a co-instigator. ;)

Well I agree we are guilty as charged !!!:)

BMWCCA

01-28-2009, 09:32 PM

However, your work is just beginning. The 4345 is not user friendly. It's performance benefits from careful set-up and knowledgeable system tuning. These are not trivail tasks, and your ability to execute them will improve with every iteration you try. Do keep trying and keep challenging yourself. Yeah, that had entered my mind, since I'm the third owner in just over two years! But my mom always said I was a problem child, too. ;)

Don't worry, I'm not selling the L7s. Looks like I'll need something to actually listen to while I tinker.

So why would these be any more problematic than, say, a 4343? Or are you 4345 guys just never happy? Go ahead; it's too late to turn back now! :duck:

Fred Sanford

01-29-2009, 04:45 AM

Good points on the Crown side re: 1/4" TRS jacks, but I was referring to the Ashly side, since he mentioned having the Crown's XLR modules - I remembered some Ashly models advising against using a mono jack in either the balanced ins or outs, not wanting to short the R&S contacts (caused distortion?). It's a vague memory, but I thought it was worth checking the manual.

je

BMWCCA

01-29-2009, 06:55 AM

Both the DC300 and the PS400 only had a two conductor 1/4 inch jack. You do want to use just a TR plug on the amp input and do what is needed with pin 3 at the sources output.
I remembered some Ashly models advising against using a mono jack in either the balanced ins or outs, not wanting to short the R&S contacts (caused distortion?). It's a vague memory, but I thought it was worth checking the manual. Thanks, everyone, for the backup. According to the Ashly manual, it looks like they addressed the problem, at least in the two recent XR-1001 and XR1001 (yeah, it appears their updated model uses a hyphen in the model number on the unit though their text is not consistent). I'm going to start with TS standard mono 1/4" (I assume that's what Mike meant) and see how it goes.

One more (today) ignorant question? What's better for the cross-over to amplifier run; shielded co-ax or twisted-pair? I'm guessing the former. :o:

Thanks.

Mr. Widget

01-29-2009, 10:32 AM

Don't worry, I'm not selling the L7s. Looks like I'll need something to actually listen to while I tinker.I am assuming you don't have advanced measurement equipment or extensive experience with multi-amped systems. If that's the case here is a trick that might be useful. (Actually it might be useful anyway.:))

Set up your L7s next to your new babies and parallel the CD player to them and the new system. If you are short on gear, you can use an old receiver or almost anything to power the L7s as they don't have to be "perfect." Run the L7s "dry" or adjust the amp to sound the way you typically like and listen to them. Now balance the output level to match the new speakers and switch back and forth getting the big beasties to sound as similar to your "standard" as possible. I think I'd run them single amped first to set up the L-pads, then throw the Ashly into the mix.

You need to get the two systems to sound as similar as possible on the widest range of music... after that you can use micro adjustments to flavor to taste.

So why would these be any more problematic than, say, a 4343? I don't think they are... 4345s just have greater potential and trying to fully realize it simply isn't a matter of writing a check.

Widget

BMWCCA

01-29-2009, 11:37 AM

I think I'd run them single amped first to set up the L-pads, then throw the Ashly into the mix.

... 4345s just have greater potential and trying to fully realize it simply isn't a matter of writing a check.Thanks but, due to the cc networks, I won't have the luxury of even playing the 4345s until they're bi-amped with the Ashly. No "original" passive crossover and I doubt the 2245s really want to be run full-range, or that doing so would do anything for balancing the system. I can still try the L7 trick, or 4412A, etc. Interesting idea!

Correct, I don't have measurement capability. I might have "people" who do, though. Pink-noise generator and others for EQ-ing a room for SR jobs. The guy's got a good ear and knows his system so usually the equipment doesn't get used unless it's a new room or a strange configuration. I'll bet he'd be happy to have an excuse to use it. Fred probably has the same capability.

Shielded connection cables?

Mr. Widget

01-29-2009, 11:53 AM

I can still try the L7 trick, or 4412A, etc. Interesting idea!RTA measurements are almost useless... not completely, but so much is masked... using that "trick" will speed up the process by weeks. Almost no one has ears that are good enough to really balance out a four way system using ears alone without a reference. Or spending weeks probing around in the dark.

Widget

hjames

01-29-2009, 11:55 AM

pretty sure I have my Ashley-to-JBL Amp lines run with XLR-XLR cables ...
I got 6 of them after I built the new rack system
(2x 2 per amp, and 2 for Yamaha EQ to Ashley inputs)...

Why not do the same with nice shielded XLR cables?

the awkward thing is the transition from the Pramp to your Crossover ...

Thanks but, due to the cc networks, I won't have the luxury of even playing the 4345s until they're bi-amped with the Ashly. No "original" passive crossover and I doubt the 2245s really want to be run full-range, or that doing so would do anything for balancing the system. I can still try the L7 trick, or 4412A, etc. Interesting idea!

Correct, I don't have measurement capability. I might have "people" who do, though. Pink-noise generator and others for EQ-ing a room for SR jobs. The guy's got a good ear and knows his system so usually the equipment doesn't get used unless it's a new room or a strange configuration. I'll bet he'd be happy to have an excuse to use it. Fred probably has the same capability.

Shielded connection cables?

Fred Sanford

01-29-2009, 12:14 PM

I'd start with coax RCA to 1/4" from Pre to X-over, and balanced XLR via twisted pair shielded from X-over to Crown modules (mic cable, not CT5, if that's what you're asking). All of that's here if you want to borrow before buying, but you probably have all or most already.

No nice RTA here, just a cheezy one. SPL meter, though. You can get white & pink noise files at whatever level you're looking for, and burn it to CD. Test tones with freq sweeps might help, too. Some useful stuff here:

http://binkster.net/extras.shtml#cd

je

Mike Caldwell

01-29-2009, 01:32 PM

hjames

01-29-2009, 02:35 PM

You mentioned a few post back that the 4345's do not have the original passive crossovers. To run the speaker bi amp you will still need the passive crossover components for the mid to high and high to the slot tweeter. The Ashly crossovers have a built in 20hz high pass filter, thats a good for the 18, I think a 30hz filter was recommended.

Mike Caldwell

Hi Mike - no flames meant, I remember reading saeman and newZenith's threads last year ...

The speakers have a ChargeCoupled replacement for the passive that runs the top 3 drivers (2122/2425/2405),
but it has no passive leg for the 18 inch Bass driver. Thus, the need for the Ashly ...

Mike Caldwell

01-29-2009, 02:43 PM

I guess I didn't read deep enough into the messages!

Mike Caldwell

BMWCCA

01-29-2009, 03:54 PM

Thanks again, guys and gals. Looks like I may be making a trek over the mountain. :thmbsup:

That'd be right after I take a trek six-hours south for a tête-à-tête with my new boss. :wtf:

boputnam

01-29-2009, 07:00 PM

...your work is just beginning. The 4345 is not user friendly. It's performance benefits from careful set-up and knowledgeable system tuning...

Yeah, that had entered my mind, since I'm the third owner in just over two years! That caught my attention, too.

Imaging is better then any system I have heard to date. Then, what-up...?

My "new" 4345s have the custom CC networks.

Who built the networks? :)
David brink.

Not a familiar name to me. Are they to exact spec's?

So why would these be any more problematic than, say, a 4343? Dunno, but I would expect similar "opportunities" (problems) in getting it right.
Or are you 4345 guys just never happy?No. From what I know of us, we are certainly a demanding bunch, but once sorted-out, we are amazingly monogamous... ;)

...I remember reading saeman and newZenith's threads last year ... The speakers have a ChargeCoupled replacement for the passive that runs the top 3 drivers (2122/2425/2405)...I don't recall those threads, off-hand. Was anything changed? Were there any "issues"...?

...I'm the third owner in just over two years! I suspect that if there is any issue, once it is sorted out, there will be some real enjoyment to be had, and, you got one hell of a bargain.

I'm not back east until May - the tour schedule isn't full but at present doesn't have us around there until then. I'd be happy to run Smaart with you. But, you need to get a GEQ into that signal path - I don't think I saw one in NewZenith's pics...

BMWCCA

01-29-2009, 08:20 PM

Not to open old wounds, but if I'm not mistaken, David Brink was previously known here as NoRealTalent and was the original owner of these Riessen reproductions cabinets. I'm told he built the networks using the schematic created by Giskard and Greg Timbers. You might also remember ex-member Steve Gonzalez once referring to Dave as, "my best Friend on the planet and fellow JBL nut".

I'm not privy to the inner working of this site or anything about the "recent unpleasantness" but I do know that as recently as two-weeks ago I was able to find both Steve Gonzales and NoRealTalent in the member section here in order to search for their posts from their profiles. Today they are only listed as "guests", if you are able to find a post attributed to either. Both ex-LH-members are on AK and you can see one of the versions of the networks (and the 4345s in the background) in this thread there: http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1494601

During the ownership of the last two members, there were component swaps a-plenty, as mentioned on LH and elsewhere. What I have right now are essentially a stock pair of 4345 with respect to the components. Without stooping to repeating rumor and innuendo, or breaking any confidence, I believe the first owner was unhappy in some way with the finish of the cabs (I, on the other hand, am quite pleased with it), and passed them to the second owner who swapped them back and forth with the first owner—as well as some components—until deciding to sell them in preparation for selling the house they were in and possibly returning to school. I have no reason to believe there's anything more to it than that—or possibly the love of the chase. Search for "4345 Bliss" and you'll see that at least the last owner was happy with them as recently as a year ago! :)

FWIW, the networks that came with the 4345s I bought are these:

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c378/BMWCCA1/IMGP7564.jpg

Thanks for the offer. Nice to see SMAART is now available for the Mac OS (not that I could afford it). Is a "GEQ" something special in an EQ (excuse my stupidity; I'm trying to learn)? Or will a Soundcraftsmen Pro-EQ-44 third-octave unit work?

hjames

01-30-2009, 03:45 AM

Okay, I am confused by all the wires on those crossover boards -
looks like 3 pair in and 3 pair out??

MF, HF and UHF are the outputs, but what are the 3 pair on the other end?

Is there additional circuitry on ancillary boards?

FWIW, the networks that came with the 4345s I bought are these:

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c378/BMWCCA1/IMGP7564.jpg

Thanks for the offer. Nice to see SMAART is now available for the Mac OS (not that I could afford it). Is a "GEQ" something special in an EQ (excuse my stupidity; I'm trying to learn)? Or will a Soundcraftsmen Pro-EQ-44 third-octave unit work?

BMWCCA

01-30-2009, 06:20 AM

Okay, I am confused by all the wires on those crossover boards -
looks like 3 pair in and 3 pair out??

MF, HF and UHF are the outputs, but what are the 3 pair on the other end?

Is there additional circuitry on ancillary boards?:D The labeled terminals are output; in this case to a cable terminated in a Speakon for each cabinet since these were run external to the 4345s. Everything was pulled right off the back of the two amps and left marked and connected as is and, since I'm still waiting on delivery of the Ashly (it's only been a week) I haven't hooked it all up yet. I believe (without digging the stuff out of the box) that the un-labeled set of three pairs of terminals are the inputs (from the HF amp) all bridged together, red > red, black > black from the two leads from the amp (blue and white wires).

I don't know if I've ever found the actual schematic for the CC 4345 bi-amp networks, though I've seen it referred to a gazillion times within the huge 44xx threads here. So I don't know how the design deals with the input to the networks, I have only what I have and NewZenith's photo I posted above. If you know where the actual schematic link is for the Giskard-Timbers CC networks, I'd appreciate the heads-up so I can archive it before I lose it again. :banghead:

hjames

01-30-2009, 06:57 AM

I've not seen the Giskard CC 3144/3145 network posted here (it may be, I just haven't seen it) ... I built his 3133 (4333) network and it works great, but the version for the 4 way systems may not be online anymore ...

Oh, my bad - I just realized those extra lines on your crossovers are the feeds to the LPAD board!! Duh!

:D The labeled terminals are output; in this case to a cable terminated in a Speakon for each cabinet since these were run external to the 4345s. Everything was pulled right off the back of the two amps and left marked and connected as is and, since I'm still waiting on delivery of the Ashly (it's only been a week) I haven't hooked it all up yet. I believe (without digging the stuff out of the box) that the un-labeled set of three pairs of terminals are the inputs (from the HF amp) all bridged together, red > red, black > black from the two leads from the amp (blue and white wires).

I don't know if I've ever found the actual schematic for the CC 4345 bi-amp networks, though I've seen it referred to a gazillion times within the huge 44xx threads here. So I don't know how the design deals with the input to the networks, I have only what I have and NewZenith's photo I posted above. If you know where the actual schematic link is for the Giskard-Timbers CC networks, I'd appreciate the heads-up so I can archive it before I lose it again. :banghead:

BMWCCA

01-30-2009, 07:19 AM

Oh, my bad - I just realized those extra lines on your crossovers are the feeds to the LPAD board!! Duh!Actually, the output (labeled terminals) go through the cable and Speakon to the L-pads in the cabinet. The "extra" sets are just bridged inputs to the network from the amp. :confused:

Seems to me the same result could have easily been accomplished with a single input pair and a bus, but what do I know?

boputnam

01-30-2009, 12:45 PM

Okay, I am confused by all the wires on those crossover boards - looks like 3 pair in and 3 pair out??

MF, HF and UHF are the outputs, but what are the 3 pair on the other end?At first I thought the "others" went 'round and back to the L-pads, but it's clearly not that simple.

Looking at the cropped image (below), I am not certain what is going on. BUT, I am new to this particular issue - I did not track the other threads. (I guess I have some background research to do...).

Not to open old wounds, but if I'm not mistaken, David Brink was previously known here as NoRealTalent and was the original owner of these Riessen reproductions cabinets. I'm told he built the networks using the schematic created by Giskard and Greg Timbers. You might also remember ex-member Steve Gonzalez once referring to Dave as, "my best Friend on the planet and fellow JBL nut".Interesting assemblage of "nuts". :) I have no knowledge as to Brink's prior experience(s) nor acumen to build such a network. Anyone know?

During the ownership of the last two members, there were component swaps a-plenty ... the first owner was unhappy in some way with the finish of the cabs ... and passed them to the second owner who swapped them back and forth with the first owner - as well as some components...:hmm:

My suspicions as to the "problems" begins and ends with the networks.

...will a Soundcraftsmen Pro-EQ-44 third-octave unit work?Yes, that is a GEQ ("graphic" EQ vs a parametric EQ PEQ). Sorry for my abbreviation...

Mike Caldwell

01-30-2009, 01:51 PM

I think the three sets of terminals on the bottom are the inputs for each respective section of the crossover, mid, hi and UHF. They appear to be paralleled together.

I take it the speakon connector is a NL8 to accommodate all six lines.

Mike Caldwell

BMWCCA

01-30-2009, 01:54 PM

At first I thought the "others" went 'round and back to the L-pads, but it's clearly not that simple.

Looking at the cropped image (below), I am not certain what is going on. BUT, I am new to this particular issue - I did not track the other threads. (I guess I have some background research to do...).

Interesting assemblage of "nuts". :) I have no knowledge as to Brink's prior experience(s) nor acumen to build such a network. Anyone know?

My suspicions as to the "problems" begins and ends with the networks.It's actually quite simple, as I've said: The input from the amp is the blue and white pair. The three pairs of input terminals are simply linked red-to-red, black-to-black and from there there are three separate independent network paths to the three output pairs to the mid, high, and UHF L-pads, via Speakons. The L-pads are in the conventional position behind the pretty 4345 foilcal on the lovely black-ash baffle. Even I can figure that out! :D If they'd simply run the input to the network on a (+) and (-) bus we'd not be having this conversation. It's the spring-loaded terminals that have you all getting your panties twisted. I'd be happy to compare them to the Giskard/Timbers 4345 CC schematic if someone could provide that link. I'll likely use their nice rubber feet to mount them to the floor of the 4345's inside and rewire them to use simple two pairs of dual-banana posts on the back to avoid such questions in the future. Maybe the idea was to make it easier to quad-amp the system? :scold: ;)

The "nuts" are experimenters. That much I get. I've never met any of them personally except NewZenith who himself is an experimenter (compression-driver L250). As for Dave, this is all the clues I can offer: http://www.katzassaudio.com/. I feel certain are others here who could shed more light but may not want to, and I respect that.

I don't anticipate any problem with the cc networks. I've heard them working and I can do a sweep to see what the setup does in my (too small) living room. If I ever build a new house, we'll sweep them again in the new (larger) room.

As I said, I always have the L7s (two pair) if this becomes too much of a job that ruins a hobby. I don't expect that's the case. FedEx says the Ashly should be here Wednesday. I have until then to convince my wife to let me remodel the living room and find storage for the C37s. ;)

BMWCCA

01-30-2009, 02:00 PM

I take it the speakon connector is a NL8 to accommodate all six lines.Neutrik NL8 from Lichtenstein. They carry all eight wires (four pair, including the LF amp).

boputnam

01-30-2009, 03:09 PM

...It's the spring-loaded terminals that have you all getting your panties twisted. I didn't even get to them!

Anyway, have fun! Now I must go find some panties...

BMWCCA

01-30-2009, 05:38 PM

I didn't even get to them!

Anyway, have fun! Now I must go find some panties...All those spring-loaded terminal posts made me wonder how many 3145's died so these could live on stuck in the Masonite? :D

Like any good 43XX owner, I'll get these up and running with what I've got and then I'll fiddle with it for the next ten years. ;)

Robh3606

01-30-2009, 07:16 PM

Well too see what you have as far as the networks all you have to do is compare them to the 4345 schematic for the 2122 crossover and 4313B's equivalents for the 2421 and 2405.

Don't let the CC intimidate you it is very simple to convert them so they match the schematics. Simple rule of thumb is for a 10uf to change over to a CC network you would double the value to 20uf and add another 20uf cap so you would end up with 2 20uf caps.

Going the other way if you saw 2 caps of equal value you would half the value of one to get the non CC network value.

I don't know what he used but it easy to find out. I will attach a schematic for the 4345. The 2122 chould be the same but with double the number of caps and 4 times the value. The equivalent 2121 and 2405 networks were developed because the tapped inductors are no longer available so same premise.

Don't forget to throw the biamp switch looking at the schematic.

Rob:)

BMWCCA

01-30-2009, 07:51 PM

Well too see what you have as far as the networks all you have to do is compare them to the 4345 schematic for the 2122 crossover and 4313B's equivalents for the 2421 and 2405. Thanks. Another member pointed me to this link which is color-reversed version of 4313B's 3145 CC schematic used for these networks, and seems to follow what I have:

Robh3606

01-30-2009, 09:05 PM

Could you please post the link.

Thanks Rob:)

BMWCCA

01-30-2009, 10:50 PM

Could you please post the link.
How about a link to a link? I ran across the original in black with white print earlier today and now can't find it. Heather has put many of the 4345 links together here: http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=171841
but even she seems to have lost the link to the original from "4313B" which she reversed for legibility as you see it here. I'm sure I'll stumble upon it again. ;)

Robh3606

01-31-2009, 09:04 AM

They do match that schematic?? Good then you know the voltage drivers are correct.

The lost link.

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=1388&page=9

Rob:)

BMWCCA

01-31-2009, 01:17 PM

They do match that schematic?? Good then you know the voltage drivers are correct.

The lost link. Thanks, that got me close enough in the thread to this post I'd been looking for: http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=52286&postcount=124
Maybe Heather can add it to her thread as an edit.

I'll go over mine piece by piece in a bit and see if I can confirm it is what I was told it was! I hate jigsaw puzzles. Give me a good old mechanical problem any day. A Rube Goldberg mousetrap makes more sense to me than an electrical schematic. I have a hard enough time following them for my cars. ;)

hjames

01-31-2009, 01:34 PM

Thanks, that got me close enough in the thread to this post I'd been looking for: http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=52286&postcount=124
Maybe Heather can add it to her thread as an edit.

I'll go over mine piece by piece in a bit and see if I can confirm it is what I was told it was! I hate jigsaw puzzles. Give me a good old mechanical problem any day. A Rube Goldberg mousetrap makes more sense to me than an electrical schematic. I have a hard enough time following them for my cars. ;)
Thanks for the heads up - very odd - thats already part of my last post in the 4345 reference Thread (see post #5) - where I posted the reverse-color version of G's schematic (white on black prints lousy on every laserwriter I ever used!)

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=175125&postcount=5

BMWCCA

01-31-2009, 01:50 PM

Thanks for the heads up - very odd - thats already part of my last post in the 4345 reference Thread (see post #5) - where I posted the reverse-color version of G's schematic.You sure did! I guess I never made it past the earlier post in the thread where your said:
(I can't find the original thread I saved it from, at the moment, but I'll post the link when I find it)I've been searching too much stuff recently and it's all beginning to look alike! Your compilation thread was very helpful, had I just scrolled to the end my question would have been answered. Maybe you'd consider deleting the reference to not finding the original thread for the next idiot like me who gives up early. :o:

boputnam

01-31-2009, 02:53 PM

Good then you know the voltage drives are correct. True...?

BMWCCA

01-31-2009, 05:28 PM

To the best of my ability to determine, the only differences in the circuitry are (and I'm only reading what's on the components):

In the Mid-bass section:
The 39-ohm MILLS 64057 on the schematic are replaced by Dayton Audio Grade 40-ohm 10-watt

In the HF section:
The (2) 18-ohm MILLS on the schematic are replaced with (2) 20-ohm MILLS. It also looks like there should be another 20-ohm just before the output that doesn't seem to be there. Possibly a change made for the 435Be driver used previously?? Or a change to accommodate the current 16-ohm 2425J instead of the older 2421B?? Or lost in the shuffle? I have no idea.

In the UHF section:
7-ohm MILLS MRA12F's are used instead of the two 6.8-ohm MILLS 62753's on the schematic.

Caps are all Solen. And, of course, there is no passive LF section since these are bi-amp only and require an external active crossover, hence the posting in this thread!

Any thoughts? :dont-know :confused:

boputnam

01-31-2009, 07:45 PM

...
In the HF section:
...It also looks like there should be another 20-ohm just before the output that doesn't seem to be there. Possibly a change ... to accommodate the current 16-ohm 2425J instead of the older 2421B?? Uh, no.

BMWCCA

01-31-2009, 08:32 PM

Uh, no.Well, oddly enough that last 20-ohm resistor doesn't seem to be in any of the three designs that our ex-member built, at least according to the photos here: http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1494601&highlight=4345#post1494601

I find it hard to believe I found something so obvious, missing. Must be some reason for it, maybe an earlier or later change in the network schematic? Easy enough to add if need be. I'm sure there are some here who created the design who could comment on it, if they wouldn't mind. I see a schematic. I see one resistor missing. I see the same resistor missing in two other versions built by the same guy. So, should I just run one between the HF output terminals and see what it does? I'm sure there was a somewhat more scientific approach to the original design! :confused:

Here's a link to a huge photo that might be of some help if someone wanted to delve into this a bit deeper: http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa178/newzenith_photos/JBL%204345/IMGP7564.jpg (click on the image to enlarge it even further).

I'd certainly appreciate the help and opinions of you who actually understand this stuff. Last time I looked there wasn't a word limit on posts here! ;)

Thanks. :thmbsup:

Robh3606

02-01-2009, 08:55 AM

I find it hard to believe I found something so obvious, missing. Must be some reason for it, maybe an earlier or later change in the network schematic?

You don't need it if you are using 8 ohm drivers.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=330&highlight=4345+ohm

Rob:)

boputnam

02-01-2009, 01:53 PM

Last time I looked there wasn't a word limit on posts here! ;)I was only pointing out the fact that the network design allowed for the swap (2425J or 2421B) you were concerned about - it was annotated right on the schematic. So, there were no words needed. :)

You don't need it if you are using 8 ohm drivers.
Which is part of what concerns me...

Well, oddly enough that last 20-ohm resistor doesn't seem to be in any of the three designs that our ex-member built...Which is the other part that concerns me.

You bought these with that driver compliment. Apparently, no-one along the way noticed the importance of that last resistor in the HF signal path? The frequency response of these will be unbalanced, without it.

So, back to a point I tried to make a couple days ago, these speakers are likely not performing to spec, thus their recurring sale. You have a real treasure in your hands that will take some work you may not have anticipated.

We know there is nothing whatsoever wrong with those cabinets.
We know there is nothing whatsoever wrong with that transducer compliment.

The trouble lies with those networks.

For starters, you should complete a very thorough and diligent tracing of the signal paths of those networks, for each band pass - and by that I mean make sure the signal goes where it is supposed to go and the (nearly) right components are there, end-to-end. Obviously these came from a network amateur who may have missed a few key points - we know he thought it immaterial to deviate from the exact component specs.

There are many here who can help with this, and we all want these to fulfill your expectations. They can be wonderful...

BMWCCA

02-01-2009, 03:18 PM

I can't thank any of you enough for helping me follow up on this. In the post Rob linked to above it would seem that losing the 20-ohm resistor is correct for either 8-ohm L-pad or 8-ohm drivers, at least that's the most sense I can make out of that thread. The 2425J is certainly labeled as 16-ohm but if there's one thing I've learned from this site about vintage JBL drivers, the ohm rating is one fast and loose data point. So, should I check DCR on the driver? The L-pads? Or just run a 20-ohm resistor across the HF output on the crossovers and see how it sounds? Seems like someone must have done it for a reason and "4313B" seems to be the source of the suggestion. I'm sure he has a reason for not commenting in this thread but I did brush this morning and used mouthwash. Honest! :D

I've checked and traced everything with respect to components on the crossovers and other than this anomaly, everything seems to be correct. I'll just leave the crossovers outside the cabinets until I'm either satisfied with them, or get tired of messing with them. ;)

Robh3606

02-01-2009, 03:29 PM

The 2425J is certainly labeled as 16-ohm but if there's one thing I've learned from this site about vintage JBL drivers, the ohm rating is one fast and loose data point.

Not for them it's not. There are both 8 and 16ohm diaphrams available. Forgeting what's on the label you could just as easilly have 8 installed in the drivers. If they measure about 4 ohms you have 8's in them which is why there is no resistor.

Rob:)

Mr. Widget

02-01-2009, 03:42 PM

I'm sure he has a reason for not commenting in this thread but I did brush this morning and used mouthwash. Honest! :D
I believe he is currently on vacation... or at least taking a forum vacation.

Widget

BMWCCA

02-01-2009, 04:56 PM

I believe he is currently on vacation... or at least taking a forum vacation.Thanks. I'm reasonably certain I'll need a vacation, too, after I get done with this installation! Or maybe I should send my wife and kids on one right now before I start.

There are both 8 and 16ohm diaphrams available. Forgeting what's on the label you could just as easily have 8 installed in the drivers. If they measure about 4 ohms you have 8's in them which is why there is no resistor.Thanks! Very helpful. I'll check it out as soon as they come inside. :o:

But I did have another thought: The schematic shows the 20-ohm resistor AFTER the L-pad (at least that's what it looks like to me). I suppose it's possible that there's a resistor inside the cabinet since my boxes had outboard crossovers but the L-pads are mounted conventionally on the baffle. That might vindicate the crossover construction if I'm looking at this correctly. Right? Wait a minute; let me check NewHorizon's photo album . . .
What's that little black object on the HF L-pad output in the detail from NewZenith's photo album??? :)

subwoof

02-01-2009, 06:28 PM

In one of the earlier posts the TRS issue came up with the ashleys and the improbable use of *both* bal and unbal 1/4 jacks.

The ashley, like soundcraft and so many other manufacturers use an *impedance* balanced output where the signal is on pin 2 ( or 3 ) / tip and since it is driven by the last opamp, is actually 50 to 100 ohms Z.

All that is needed is to put the same value fixed resistor to ground for the other "pin" and the receiving load sees a "balanced" line.

Now this STILL has the potential for ground noise, and the CMRR isn't too great but it allows a lot of feild patching that works without the worry of shorting one side to ground and harming the chip(s).

So just use 1/4 to 1/4 plugs to the 400/200 and observe correct grounding methods and you should be fine.

As for the mystery 20 ohm resistor, OPEN your driver and look at the color on the + terminal. Green is 8, red is 16. The stock 43XX cabs use 16. The picture does look like the little black resistor is there - that's where I would wire it.

sub

BMWCCA

02-01-2009, 07:41 PM

So just use 1/4 to 1/4 plugs to the 400/200 and observe correct grounding methods and you should be fine.

As for the mystery 20 ohm resistor, OPEN your driver and look at the color on the + terminal. Green is 8, red is 16. The stock 43XX cabs use 16. The picture does look like the little black resistor is there - that's where I would wire it.Thanks! Again.
The pics show a red terminal.

The Ashly should show up Wednesday. I've got a bunch of 1/4" TS instrument cords of good quality. Fred Sanford has even offered his tub if I need more. I appreciate the help and that's the way I'm going to hook it up. But I did find it interesting that the newest Ashly XRhyphen1001 talks about:
• Active Balanced Inputs
• Servo-Balanced Outputs
The outputs are low impedance (100 ohms typical) servo-balanced using either connector. A servo-balanced output stage simulates a true transformer output to allow interfacing with virtually any type of load. Whatever that means. :confused:

subwoof

02-01-2009, 10:21 PM

Even if you used TRS interconnects it would still work. The crown input jacks ignore it and the ashley doesn't even put a signal on it. Save the $$ and use good quality 1/4 to 1/4 patch cords.

Don't listen to the "oxygen free, directional interconnect" crowd. Their agenda is to make you buy super expensive cables that have dubious claims.

Besides what happens when you open the bag? right..the damn O2 gets in and ruins them. And the only AC / DC direction issues is when you walk into THAT bar by mistake.

The old ashley "servo" balanced is exactly what I described. Now if it is true servo active balanced, the output stage would be much more expensive to make and there would be signal on both pins 2 and 3. The REAL pro stuff is made this way since they could be running a cable that is 1000 ft+.

Since those outputs are full active, you can use *either* pin with reference to ground for an unbalanced output and if you want to be sneaky, run pin 2 to channel 1 and pin 3 to channel 2 of any amplifier and you have just put it into bridge mode...

Isn't electronics fun!

:cheers:

BMWCCA

02-01-2009, 10:29 PM

As for the mystery 20 ohm resistor, OPEN your driver and look at the color on the + terminal. Green is 8, red is 16. The stock 43XX cabs use 16. I may have misunderstood. Did you mean open the 2425J and check the color on the diaphragm + terminal? Obviously I replied that the input terminal on the driver housing was red. Then I realized I'd never seen a green one . . . :banghead:

subwoof

02-02-2009, 07:38 AM

BMWCCA

02-02-2009, 08:24 AM

the color of paint in question is between the screw terminals on the + lead of the diaphram. There are pix on this site of this. I find it hard to believe previous owners installed 8's. These *are* clones.Thanks for setting me straight, once more. I was told they have the D16R2425's in them. I think I'll leave that check for after I've lived with them as-is for a while. Not that I know anything about it after 27 years of marriage to the same woman, but I think I remember Dr. Phil, or Oprah—or maybe it was Judge Judy—say that part of starting a new relationship is establishing a mutual trust. I'll go under the assumption everything is as was stated and hopefully have little sorting to do to hear these in their best form possible. ;)

Couldn't find a link to a picture of a diaphragm terminal color code on LF, but I can see a little green paint here:
http://www.speakerrepair.com/ebaypics/dia_jbl_d16r2425_f.jpg
FedEx tracking says they had some problems with freezing fog at their Memphis hub on Friday. I think the Ashly's on a truck, creeping it's way east.

Mr. Widget

02-02-2009, 10:07 AM

I have twelve pairs of 3145 networks to build right now (various driver specs as well as 4343 versus 4344 and 4345 enclosures to make it nice and hard) as well as six pairs of 3155 networks so I am a bit busy. This past weekend was spent doing a rush job for an expo in Japan.Doesn't sound much like a vacation... ;)

Widget

BMWCCA

02-02-2009, 12:09 PM

I never liked that version and canned it years ago after the 4355 equivalent cc network slaughtered it. I thought that was common knowledge. I have a new version that I am currently tweaking with various driver sets (2121 versus 2122 versus 2123 and 2421A/2425H versus 2421B/2425J) using LEAP.
I simply wasn't following this thread. I have twelve pairs of 3145 networks to build right now (various driver specs to make it nice and hard) as well as six pairs of 3155 networks so I am a bit busy.

Thanks for your comments. Actually, I never found any thread in which this version was disparaged or superseded. I'd appreciate a link to a better version. I was unable to find that common knowledge during hours of what I thought was fairly exhaustive searching on this site. I've tried to cover any reference available through site search or Google and don't recall anything more current than this 3145 CC version.

Searching now using "3155" I see you built a CC version for Rick about two years ago, but I can't seem to find a schematic. I see it mentioned in other threads, but no links. I even found one of your posts from 12/07 talking about all the networks you were completing/shipping, including one biased 4345, though I don't find much discussion. Then I found a thread from a year-and-a-half ago (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=167253) where Rick seems to be offering the networks in various configurations. So is the "new" version available in schematic like the old "canned" one that got "slaughtered" by the new one, or does one order such a piece through you, or Rick? Nice foilcal in that thread, by the way!

Thanks again for any and all help, guidance, and/or clarification—past, present, and future! :applaud:

BMWCCA

02-02-2009, 01:43 PM

I'm sure! Unfortunately it isn't available yet. These networks really aren't meant to be plagarised by just anyone at this point in time. I find it pretty irritating that you got stuck with an original version. :(Plagiarized seems a harsh a harsh description.:( I appreciate your concern, but from the threads on this site, it would seem the networks I have were the bee's-knees in design here at the time they were built from schematics you freely posted on this forum a few years ago. I don't really see how either of the past owners could have sold them to me with anything else if nothing newer existed. If there's no new application currently available, please just let me know when it might be and in what form and we can discuss how to get my 4345's updated, whenever. :confused:

Surely Dave wasn't the only one to build these networks from the schematic posted here, and they were always credited as what they were from the beginning of NewZenith's ownership-bliss thread. It's hard for me to tell how they were described in NoRealTalent's for-sale thread prior to that because no trace of it remains.

I'm not here for the human drama, angst, or arguments. I'm here for the enjoyment of music, JBLs, and the camaraderie. If I wanted petty disputation, I already have a wife and three kids! ;) I've always been impressed with how freely everyone shared information and supported each other on LH. Now all of a sudden I seem to have become slightly mired in a bit of innuendo and obfuscation—for whatever reason.

So, let me ask this as objectively and innocuously as I can: What can I do to make these 4345s as up-to-date as possible? And how can I get people to be honest with me about them? I'm really a bit confused by the silly turn this whole odyssey has taken. Hopefully we can manage to get past it and look back on the entire history of these beautiful 4345's to this point as a humorous diversion out of the past.

Thanks again! I can't wait to hear them sing. :applaud:

Ian Mackenzie

02-03-2009, 01:21 AM

BMWCCA

02-03-2009, 07:49 AM

I recall this saga from years gone by. The problem was the builder had great difficulty reading a schematic and being ousted by the Pope he had troubles obtaining information on things like what is a tapped "choke"?

If it is the 2nd equivalent version as I recall the L Dcr values are so sensitive to proper operation it was not user friendly to build.

The 1st equivalent (Gregs & Giskards:D) was a charm to build and was quite tolerant in terms of L Dcr.

An 8 ohm compression driver will work but makes L pad adjustment a PITA.

The accuracy of the voltage drive curves (dips and peaking) moves around a bit depending on the L Pad position but there is so much slack in those Pads they need dialling in with a Db meter and sine.

Everyone who sells these seems to regret it if the new owner gets a handle on setting them up properly! Thanks Ian,

I believe we've resolved the 16-ohm driver question. Short of removing the diaphragm to check, 16-ohm is confirmed by the listing of the D16R2425 and the proper resistor on the L-pad. I'm not familiar with the first vs. second version of the crossovers but these follow the schematic of the version posted in the 4345 Reference thread. What can I say? I wasn't there at the creation. I'll check the setup with as much instrumentation as I can muster but I must say I'm intrigued (and comforted) by the suggestion of setting them up using the L7 A-B methodology! :D

I don't know a "tapped choke" from an artichoke, or "voltage drive" from "iDrive" but I do appreciate helpful suggestions over dredging up past unpleasantries. I don't have any hidden agenda, much less any knowledge of these systems to share. I'm just trying to get the most out of them so I can enjoy the music. I will share what I can. I don't need to buy a Mensa card to know I can understand a new concept if given a chance and a good teacher. I've shared the expertise I do have with thousands over the years, hopefully without making them feel badly about their ignorance on the topic.

I'm not interested in continuing a saga, though history does intrigue me and may answer some questions. I just want to hear the music! Thanks for any help you can offer to get these inanimate objects functioning at their best-possible level. I really do appreciate it. :applaud:

BMWCCA

02-03-2009, 08:25 AM

Excellent! Can we drop the constant references then?

Chapter One:
No Real Talent Required
"Genesis"

Chapter Two:
Reaching for a New Zenith
"Revelations"

Chapter Three:
Virginia is for lovers!
"I get high with a little help from my friends."

:thmbsup:

hjames

02-03-2009, 08:41 AM

Chapter Three:
Virginia is for lovers!
"I get high with a little help from my friends."

:thmbsup:

Chapter 4 -
you are either on the bus or off the bus ..

Dude - when are you going to get them off the bus, bring them inside, make friends with them ...
introduce them to a little electricity ??

BMWCCA

02-03-2009, 09:12 AM

Dude - when are you going to get them off the bus, bring them inside, make friends with them ...

Work! This is what we like to call "Hell Week" each month.

And you might not have noticed ;) but these things are HUGE! Neither my wife or my house are prepared. These are way to big for our living room but might be what we need to get us going on building that house for which L300s were supposed to be a housewarming present.

Fedex simply says the Ashly was in Phoenix last week and expected delivery is . . . tomorrow. But I've got another trip I have to take first.

This is one project I don't want to leave half-way done. And I also hadn't considered the interaction between the virgin grilles and our two cats! They've learned no to bother the C37s but that's some tough grille cloth. These get only one shot at being perfect until a casual claw gets too close. Rabbit wire? :D
(not my hand!)
http://www.unexco.com/hwrcloth.jpg

Sigh! :(

hjames

02-03-2009, 09:21 AM

Aww - c'mon - I have a TINY room and we got the smaller 4341 4 ways in there, you must have a BEEEG house out there in the country, at least bigger than our little city house.

But a cat delay I do understand! Ours Himalayans were rescue cats, (and they don't go outside!), plus I don't know which previous owner had their front claws removed, but that makes a world of difference in woofer comfort. I've seen them stretch their paws up on the 15s - but its just bare pads so nothing happens. I understand you might want to be more careful with 18s ...

Are you going to electrify that screening? - that could be effective ...

besides, if I can't tease you about those things, living in a van, down by the river ... :applaud:

Work! This is what we like to call "Hell Week" each month.

This is one project I don't want to leave half-way done. And I also hadn't considered the interaction between the virgin grilles and our two cats! They've learned no to bother the C37s but that's some tough grille cloth. These get only one shot at being perfect until a casual claw gets too close. Rabbit wire? :D
(not my hand!)
http://www.unexco.com/hwrcloth.jpg

Sigh! :(

Ian Mackenzie

02-03-2009, 10:07 AM

Hopefully the only filter that will need looking at is the HF (horn).

BMWCCA

02-03-2009, 10:26 AM

Aww - c'mon - you must have a BEEEG house out there in the country, at least bigger than our little city house.1,500-sq.ft., 4-bedroom, 2-bath, 1-1/2 story is not large. We've lived here for 25 years, even before three kids. Mansions all around, but we were newly-weds when we bought it. One of the best school systems in the country and best elementary in the district was one reason. Mountain views, another. Fred's house is close to twice as big. Heather's may be a bit larger, but I'll bet we have more junk, never having had to move!

Hopefully the only filter that will need looking at is the HF (horn).Thanks Ian. We'll see shortly!

Fred Sanford

02-03-2009, 11:15 AM

1,500-sq.ft., 4-bedroom, 2-bath, 1-1/2 story is not large. We've lived here for 25 years, even before three kids. Mansions all around, but we were newly-weds when we bought it. One of the best school systems in the country and best elementary in the district was one reason. Mountain views, another. Fred's house is close to twice as big. Heather's may be a bit larger, but I'll bet we have more junk, never having had to move!

That's only 'cause you're not counting car interiors as "finished space", otherwise you're well past my ~3,000 sq. ft.

Mountain views are nice.

hjames

02-03-2009, 11:22 AM

1,500-sq.ft., 4-bedroom, 2-bath, 1-1/2 story is not large. We've lived here for 25 years, even before three kids. Mansions all around, but we were newly-weds when we bought it. One of the best school systems in the country and best elementary in the district was one reason. Mountain views, another. Fred's house is close to twice as big. Heather's may be a bit larger, but I'll bet we have more junk, never having had to move!

naw, ours is tiny too - maybe 1800 square, but lots of stairs!

Plus Emma and I are both collectors - of many different things!
Its pretty packed for 2 people!

Wow - nice view, Fred!

boputnam

02-03-2009, 04:27 PM

...the 230-pound 4345s are still in the van!
You mean these are really a car stereo in the van? Holy-moly! That's a new twist on an "old saga", as you put it!

Or, is that a new way to break-in those 2245's (which surely have not yet!)... :rotfl:

BMWCCA

02-03-2009, 05:45 PM

You mean these are really a car stereo in the van? Holy-moly! That's a new twist on an "old saga", as you put it!
It is sort of a full-circle JBL saga for me. Old story: When I first came to Virginia for college I wanted to bring my C37 030's along. But my car was a tiny BMW 1600-2. Not to be left without my stereo, I pulled the back seat and stashed it in the trunk, cut a piece of plywood to fit over the seat cavity, and managed to get both cabinets in standing up with one turned sideways. Nice tall roof in those old BMWs! As long as I had them in the car I figured I might as well hook them up to my 8-Track player (this was 1973 and I hated cassettes and had a Sony 8-track recorder . . . clunk!). It was quite an interesting 800-mile drive with my JBL "headphones". As much as things change, so much stays the same. At least this time I didn't hook the 4345's up to the fine Chrysler Infinity sound system. :barf:

Sad but true. Here they sit. (I had to fiddle with the pic in PhotoShop just so you could see the second one, since it was bright sunlight in a dark van, in the snow.):

boputnam

02-03-2009, 06:26 PM

Sad but true. Here they sit .... in the snow. :scold: Uh-oh... I feared as much!

Dammit, dood - that is serious 4345 abuse! :bash:

Driving around with 4345's is not - I repeat not - a way to get hot chics.
It is also not a viable means to break-in a 2245H! :rotfl:

BMWCCA

02-03-2009, 06:35 PM

Dammit, dood - that is serious 4345 abuse! :bash:I accept my punishment: 200 watts at 32Hz.

Perhaps tomorrow. :spchless:

SMKSoundPro

02-03-2009, 11:56 PM

And the only AC / DC direction issues is when you walk into THAT bar by mistake. :cheers:

Hey, hey, hey!!! I work at THAT bar!!! It pays my bills, and they don't like AC/DC! (its too straight!)

BMWCCA

02-07-2009, 10:09 PM

After two weeks with the 4345s sitting in the van, the forecast was for 50º yesterday. No one home. Looked like a good time to rearrange the living room.

Not easy. Build a ramp. Buy a furniture dolly. False start up the ramp. Not strong enough to get the bad boy re-centered on the dolly. It outweighs me by twenty pounds. Back to the van. Fulcrum. Back on the dolly. Ratcheting motorcycle tie-down. Up the ramp. Piece of cake. Flip the box on its side on a pad, screw 100-pound-rated ball casters to the base. Stand 'em back up. Wire the crossovers. Whoops! Looks like the HF wires are connected to UHF wires on the crossover. Hmm. That's how I got 'em. OK. Hook up portable CD player. Pull some crossover wires to see what cuts out. They're right, just labeled wrong. Re-label existing wires to match the terminals they're connected to.

Pull doors and adjust cabinet shelves to accommodate the Ashly and the crossover boards. Man, where does all that dust come from? Pull and wipe all cables with wet paper towels. Put all the stuff back in, cut a larger hole to gain access the back of the Crowns. Whoops. Interconnects from Ashly to Crowns too short. Too late tonight. Wait. Rummage. Find eight RCA-to-1/4" adapters (after 35-years of Crown ownership and eight amps you keep this stuff around . . .). Whoops! LF leads in the Neutrik NL8 harness are too short. Play it anyway without LF on right channel. It's now 4:30am and there's a 60-cycle hum, but we made music. Quietly.

Wake up next morning after 4.5 hours of sleep. Clearer head tells me it's not worth it having the crossovers take up cabinet space. Plus maybe running the high-level wiring in and out of the cabinet is causing some hum. Never hummed before, well, maybe years ago. Once. Before I replaced all the interconnects. Off to the guitar store for some longer (3' is all I needed) 1/4" cables. Back home, pull doors off cabinet again, un-rack what I just moved last night, kick the crossovers out of the cabinet. Hook it all up. No LF out of right channel still. Didn't think it was really possible to hook up a dual-Pomona plug and miss one terminal! That's what happens when you're upside-down on your back with your arm contorted plugging something in somewhere you can barely see even before you stick your hand in the hole. Okay, plug everything back in. Still a slight hum with no signal. Play music anyway . . .

O.M.G.!

Let's put on some real music on now. Wow! It's like having new ears. Tried a few old favorites. Horns on horns; just makes sense now. Twist the L-pads to flat. Defeat the EQ. Sweet! Put on a CD I've never listened to and didn't know my wife had. Must have gotten it as a present from her sister: Emmie Lou from 2008. My wife comes in from the kitchen to see what I'm playing and sits on the couch. Time for a shower. Helping a friend with a sound job in a half-hour. Come back twenty-minutes later and my wife's still sitting there listening. Humming along to the music now. She never does that. So I say, "Yeah, I know they're huge, and they've disrupted the entire house . . . but don't they sound nice?" She answers, "Yes, they sound very nice!" My daughter comes in and just shakes her head. "What was wrong with the old ones?" she says pointing out the C37 standing on its side now dwarfed by the 4345, even on the dolly. "Nothing" I said with a smile.

I leave for work around 3:30pm. Easy job and, for once, I'm home by 10pm. As I get out of the car I remember I hadn't covered the grilles in case the cats decided to get to know the new family members. I walk in the living room and see my wife had covered them with cardboard before taking my daughter ice-skating. That's must mean she likes them.

Or didn't want any dead cats!

These are very cool. Brought home a sound generator from the job so maybe tomorrow I'll see what's happening. They sound fairly balanced flat but I just don't really hear anything coming out of the 10". If I mute the LF on the Ashly, I get an awfully tinny sound. Seems like a waste of the 2122H. I can hear a difference when I give it a boost on the L-pad, so I now they're working. With a sweep maybe I can tell how close the Ashly is getting to 290Hz. That seems a bit high for an 18" to me. Time to experiment—and get rid of the hum!

But right out-of-the-box, I'd say they're probably the best speakers I've ever heard. Ever. Very sweet sound. Can't wait to play them with some volume. My family says I must be deaf. When I leave the room and come back I can't believe how loud they are. But when you're listening to them, it just sounds so good you want to turn it up. I've had to back the amps way down just to get the volume level of the Soundcraftsmen pre-amp to stay in the normal range the family is used to. These are really efficient, even compared to the 030's with D130's! I've set the Crown input attenuators at less than half just to get the volume control even to 10-o'clock at "normal" room volume, and that's with the Ashly at unity. The amps are Crown DC300A-II and D150A-II, and they're just loafing. The 4345s must really kick ass when played loud. Maybe tomorrow. I love the sound at low level. The same bit of smiley-face EQ for loudness contouring on the 030s at low levels really isn't necessary with this setup. The 2245H's just pump enough to fill the room with no effort at all. It's like walking into a room full of sound rather than listening to speakers. I can't thnk of anything bad to say about them, but that's after maybe an hour of serious listening. I don't think I've heard one entire track yet. I'm trying everything I own. The one drawback is these are in the living room, and my room is upstairs. I'm not good at sharing but the 4345s are not climbing my stairs!

Did I say they were huge?

demon

02-07-2009, 10:47 PM

speaker law:
bigger = better

air has to be moved, baffle has to be stepped on, throats have to be sung.
its an easy law.
big big big.

im looking forward to read more of your pretty (big) clones. you totally hooked me with your report just now. thanks!

cheers,
mikey

Triumph Don

02-07-2009, 10:57 PM

Let me be the first, ah, I TOLD YA SO! Horn thing, you know. Your tweaking has just started and with a cat like you it will never end. Enjoy the ride, and get rid of the bottom feeder thing on your avitar. You will need cash for some upgrades soon, very soon, so i will make your life less complicated and spacious and come pick up one of your pairs of L7's, OK?

hjames

02-08-2009, 12:30 AM

Yeah, uh-huh!! :rockon2: The birthday present that keeps on giving!

I can tell you are gonna have GREAT fun with them!
Congratulations AGAIN ...

Enjoy your Sunday - :applaud:

H O R N S ...!

After two weeks with the 4345s sitting in the van, the forecast was for 50º yesterday. No one home. Looked like a good time to rearrange the living room.
...
O.M.G.!
...
Right out-of-the-box, I'd say they're probably the best speakers I've ever heard. Ever. Very sweet sound.
...
Did I say they were huge?

Fred Sanford

02-08-2009, 05:57 AM

It's only just begun... :applaud:

je

JBLRaiser

02-08-2009, 07:04 AM

Thanks!:cheers:

hjames

02-08-2009, 07:09 AM

It's only just begun... :applaud:

je

Okay, Phil KNOWS its coming, so

I'll play devil's advocate ...

:useless:

BMWCCA

02-08-2009, 07:34 AM

Okay, Phil KNOWS its coming, so
Believe me, you're not missing anything. :D

Still have to find a spot for the old 030's, and try and find a place for the old TV without resorting to buying a new flat-screen wall-hanging. And my wife decided she couldn't live without some 30" African drum in a cast-iron frame with a 36" glass top turning it into a table. Doesn't she understand you can't just jam big stuff like that in a tiny room? ;)

hjames

02-08-2009, 07:59 AM

Believe me, you're not missing anything. :D

Still have to find a spot for the old 030's, and try and find a place for the old TV without resorting to buying a new flat-screen wall-hanging. And my wife decided she couldn't live without some 30" African drum in a cast-iron frame with a 36" glass top turning it into a table. Doesn't she understand you can't just jam big stuff like that in a tiny room? ;)

No sympathy - WE found places for OUR African Drum collection!
(and for my old camera collection)
You just need taller rooms and higher shelves!

Fred Sanford

02-08-2009, 10:11 AM

No sympathy - WE found places for OUR African Drum collection!
(and for my old camera collection)
You just need taller rooms and higher shelves!

Didn't know you collect old camera stuff, I've been sending all my stuff to a friend in NY as I uncover it. You missed a nice Voigtlander Baby Bessa a little while back. There's still more flash/filter stuff here, and maybe another stereo camera...I'll look around.

Surprisingly, no African drums here, though - weird. I'm slacking. :blink:

je

hjames

02-08-2009, 11:02 AM

Didn't know you collect old camera stuff, I've been sending all my stuff to a friend in NY as I uncover it. You missed a nice Voigtlander Baby Bessa a little while back. There's still more flash/filter stuff here, and maybe another stereo camera...I'll look around.

Surprisingly, no African drums here, though - weird. I'm slacking. :blink:

je

That's already - I had been waiting years for Dad's old cameras, and when he was downsizing in prep for a move to a smaller house, he threw it all in the trash! I didn't find out until a couple weeks later ... lost an original leather SX-70 we gave him when they were new and a box camera like the one on my shelf - I found that on ebay a few months later to replace it ...

The Djembes and Talking drum are from "the House of Musical Traditions (http://www.hmtrad.com/)" in Takoma Park, MD - a VERY cool shop on the edge of DC ...
The big one throws a VERY nice low note in that room!

BMWCCA

02-08-2009, 12:16 PM

Ran a quick sweep using the octave generator on a Neutrik MR-1. My ears insisted the low-end was too strong and the mids slightly deficient. Running the sweep with my ears and my wife's (neither of us calibrated) it seems I cut too much of the bass. Are recordings just this bass-heavy, or does it come from too many years of listening to a D130? When the Ashly is set to unity the octave tones roll off at the bottom pretty much (again, to our ears) like the JBL curve. It crosses over into the the mid-bass very smoothly, though if you mute either the LF or the HF you can see the roll-off at the crossover point is ridiculously gradual and both extend WELL into the range of the other. That was at "6" on the Ashly "response" dial. Moving it up to 7 had it roll-off quicker in both directions but the extension of each speaker into ranges far beyond either side of 290Hz was still eye-opening. Not sure yet which sounds better beyond just the sweep and we've not used a dB meter on anything yet. Seems to be some peakiness at 2k and again at 4k but that could be the room.

Is four-way maybe a bit of overkill? Where the 2405 is crossed, I'm sure it's adding some extension to the 2425J but that horn and driver combo seem quite capable of an incredible range on their own. The UHF is mostly operating in a range I can barely even hear anymore. The 2245H can play up higher than I'd ever expected, too. Seems like you could lose the mid-bass driver and not miss too much. But Heather would know; she's been-there, done-that.

I took the horns down -1 on the L-pads, everything else is flat. Then bumped them back up half-a-notch, but playing with those based on different source material is a losing proposition. I'm not using the EQ in the Soundcraftsmen since I don't have the 1/3-octave Pro-EQ-44 in this system yet and the DX4200 is only octave band. Still playing around without changing everything in the system.

It is amazing what this system will bring out in good recordings . . . and bad ones. Lizz Wright is one of my favorite young vocalist but her current producer, the vaunted Craig Street, has really stepped in it on her latest album. It sounds like a bad car stereo as it rolls down your street (hey, maybe that's what his name means?) and the fuzziness in the recording (certain tracks are far worse than others) isn't any better with these speakers. In fact on some cuts it's even more irritating. At least it vindicates the L7s! She sounds like she's singing through Derrek Trucks' guitar amp, if you know what I mean! He helped Norah Jones with a Grammy for her Come Away With Me, but notice how much better her recordings became when she dumped him, especially Not Too Late.

Four Play and Bill Evan's Quintessence sound as you'd expect them to: Exquisite! And this is on my living-room Sony carousel DVD player. Excuse me, I've got to go dial back the LF on the Ashly again. And this is at the lowest listening level I can handle, with no EQ!

What's playing now? David Sanborn's Upfront. I grew up swimming on a team with his younger sister. Never met David that I can recall, but I have a decent-enough collection of his CDs that never really got enough play. They sound pretty compelling now though. :D

I haven't stopped listening to music since I woke up this morning.

hjames

02-08-2009, 12:35 PM

I haven't stopped listening to music since I woke up this morning.

he he he what a hoot -
You'll see ... ALL of your albums require these new ears.

Have you done Fourplay yet - or "Cousin Dupree" from Steely Dan - hell, any of the newer Steely Dan (even Aja) ought to be a revelation ...

Have you tried any of your Cello pieces?

SMKSoundPro

02-08-2009, 02:20 PM

Always try Steely Dan! I use the opening drums and cymbals from "True Companion" of their greatest hits album. Second to the last track of LIVE Bodhistava(?). Its the nicest opening riff that builds to a gently weeping guitar and rhythm section.

That's where the 2405's shine!!!

Lisa and first danced to Fourplay. Sounds like you're doing fine!

Keep us posted as I am really interested in what you hear in the 4345's as compared to the others. I am running the 4345's with a pair of Yamaha P2100 and P2200 amps, and you're right, I had to back the amp input attenuators down to twelve o'clock to open up the gain structure from the preamp. I gave them some smiley face EQ from the DBX 2231, and then just hit the EQ Bypass button and adjusted the electronic xover and the L-Pads. Matt just stood there as I was tweaking l-pads and giving me the thumbs up or down sign.

I also wondered if the tens were working, so squelched them with their specific l-pad and heard quite a whole in the music. Narrow but definitely a whole. I agree that the 2122 seems overkill!

Thanks for posting and finally getting them out of the "7 passenger chariot of romance" and in the living room!

Can you please post some pictures of the handmade wooden 2308 lenses? I would like to try my hand at making some out of exotic hardwoods.

Keep listening!!!

"Once you go (JBL) BLUE (baffles) you never go black!!!"

(ie. L200b's, L100, 4311, 4312, 4411, L110, L56... etc.)
(NO derogatory offense of any persons, things, or plants, living or dead, intended!)

BMWCCA

02-08-2009, 02:34 PM

Always try Steely Dan! I didn't want to wear the family out on it. They hear it enough as-is. And it's hard to play it anything other than LOUD! I still have yet to try Fred Sanford's demo/test disc.
Keep us posted as I am really interested in what you hear in the 4345's as compared to the others. I don't have a whole lot of experience with other big monitors, other than casually hearing how full Heather's house sounded, and our L7 shootout at Fred's with his 4333's. Probably makes me the least likely person here on this site who's heard 4345's to make that comparison.
I also wondered if the tens were working, so squelched them with their specific l-pad and heard quite a whole in the music. Narrow but definitely a whole. I agree that the 2122 seems overkill! Strange, isn't it?? :)
Can you please post some pictures of the handmade wooden 2308 lenses? I would like to try my hand at making some out of exotic hardwoods. Well, there are plenty of good shots on the web and from these boxes' previous owners so I'll start with those. Click on the thumbnail below to take you to NewZenith's shot of "my" lens, and then click on that image to enlarge it to humongous size!

http://s203.photobucket.com/albums/aa178/newzenith_photos/JBL%204345/th_IMGP7571.jpg (http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa178/newzenith_photos/JBL%204345/IMGP7571.jpg)

Robh3606

02-08-2009, 02:41 PM

What is the phase on the woofer?? When I run a 24db network on the 4344 I have to reverse the phase. The original is a 12db network with a 24dB L/R they should be in phase.

Is four-way maybe a bit of overkill? Where the 2405 is crossed, I'm sure it's adding some extension to the 2425J but that horn and driver combo seem quite capable of an incredible range on their own. The UHF is mostly operating in a range I can barely even hear anymore. The 2245H can play up higher than I'd ever expected, too. Seems like you could lose the mid-bass driver and not miss too much. But Heather would know; she's been-there, done-that.

Try doing an A/B with two systems one with a 2425 operating alone and one with the 2405. You may not casually notice the difference but put them in the same room and it's obvious how much better the 2405 covers the 10-20K range.

You could loose the 10 but then you would be missing one of the reasons why they sound as good as they do.

Rob:)

hjames

02-08-2009, 03:14 PM

What is the phase on the woofer?? When I run a 24db network on the 4344 I have to reverse the phase. The original is a 12db network with a 24dB L/R they should be in phase.

You could loose the 10 but then you would be missing one of the reasons why they sound as good as they do.

Rob:)

I'm running my 15s reversed - tho I had mistakenly run then in phase before.
Out of phase you'll get a sharper cutoff between the woofer and the 10 inch - with a biamp rig it should be easy enough to power down the bottom amp, switch connectors, then power it up again ...
You are on Banana jacks already, right? (thought I remember you mention dual pomona plugs)

Ian Mackenzie

02-08-2009, 03:28 PM

Sounds like you are having fun.

It will probably take a week or so to feel out how you want to set them up.

A couple of thoughts..based on your initial observations.

In the stock 4345 the midrange cone, horn and slot are all wired 180 degress out of phase (reversed) with the woofer because of the 12 db slope passive crossover from the woofer to the midrange cone in the stock system.

The factory active crossover setup is a 3rd order 18 db slope @ 290 hertz. Being 3rd order it is all-pass and you can have the phase either way so its not a big deal but the internal reversal of the mid/horn/slot seems to work best.

With the Ashly crossover , as I recall its 4th order 24 db RL multiple feedback filters that have a Q adjustment that allow you to damp or peak the actual crossover transistion. Given its 4th order LR reponse you are probably best to ensure the woofer and the mid/horn/slot are electrically in phase and then make adjustments to the Q adjustment later on.

Because its not a stock network I would use a low voltage battery to confirm the phase of the woofer and the mid cone from the rear crossover terminals. (both cones should go inward with + postive to the red terminal). You will need to adjust the mid L pad setting to max so you can see the mid cone movement. This should give you at least a baseline to work from otherwise it can get quite confusing trying to adjust 4 drivers

O'l Tin ear Bo has used this crossover before so you may want to ask him how he went about using the Ashly.

Response Control; an Ashly Exclusive...
This control, found adjacent to the crossover frequency control, adjusts the damping of the filter affecting the response shape of the filters at the crossover point. The dial calibrations refer to the amount of attenuation effected by the filter at the crossover frequency, i.e., a setting of 3dB means that the filter's high-pass and low-pass outputs are each "rolled off 3dB at the crossover point". This describes Butterworth filter response, or a gentle 3dB peak at the crossover point when the two filter output signals overlap. To obtain a flat signal, or "Linkwitz-Riley" response through the crossover region, set the Response control to "6". This attenuates each output of the filter by 6dB at the crossover point (two identical signals added together yield a +6dB increase). To obtain a notch at the crossover point, turn down the response control past "6" to best suit your needs.

The purpose of this control is to help offset the inaccuracies inherent in typical loudspeakers, thereby helping you to achieve a flat system response. NOTE: The Response control is not a "slope" control. A 24dB/octave crossover will always have a slope of 24dB/octave. The Response control only affects filter response shape in the immediate vicinity of the crossover frequency; the ultimate crossover slope is a fixed parameter.

see http://www.ashly.com/manuals/xman04.pdf

point 6.6 for phase confirmation.

*Bo is an excellent driving instructor for illegal aliens so something like this should be a walk in the park...LOL

Ian Mackenzie

02-08-2009, 04:03 PM

I'm running my 15s reversed - tho I had mistakenly run then in phase before.
Out of phase you'll get a sharper cutoff between the woofer and the 10 inch - with a biamp rig it should be easy enough to power down the bottom amp, switch connectors, then power it up again ...
You are on Banana jacks already, right? (thought I remember you mention dual pomona plugs)

Hi Heather,

As the drivers are already reversed internally on the 4343/4344/4345 I think that means your drivers are now electrically in-phase if you reversed them externally (to compensate).

BMWCCA

02-08-2009, 07:35 PM

With the Ashly crossover , as I recall its 4th order 24 db RL multiple feedback filters that have a Q adjustment that allow you to damp or peak the actual crossover transistion. Given its 4th order LR reponse you are probably best to ensure the woofer and the mid/horn/slot are electrically in phase and then make adjustments to the Q adjustment later on.

Because its not a stock network I would use a low voltage battery to confirm the phase of the woofer and the mid cone from the rear crossover terminals. (both cones should go inward with + postive to the red terminal). You will need to adjust the mid L pad setting to max so you can see the mid cone movement. This should give you at least a baseline to work from otherwise it can get quite confusing trying to adjust 4 driversThanks for the suggestions. I have the Ashly "response" set to "6" for a flat Linkowitz-Riley response. I'll check out the phase from LF to the rest but I'm slightly confused:

The Ashly manual states:
6.6 System Phase
The outputs of all Ashly crossovers are in phase with the input. Assuming that your power amplifiers do not invert phase (most do not), the signals from all your amps should be in phase. If all speakers are the same brand, it is easy to keep them in phase. With different brands of speakers used together, phasing becomes a little more confusing. It is important to keep all the speakers within each band in phase with each other, and equally important to keep all bands of the system in phase as well. If this is not done, loss of level and pattern control at the crossover frequency will result.
Phase of CONE speakers can be checked by connecting a 1.5 volt battery to the speaker and observing which way the cone moves. Don’t try this with compression drivers! The most common convention is that (+) voltage on the (+) terminal moves the cone forward. A notable exception to this convention is JBL. A (+) voltage on the red terminal of a JBL speaker moves the cone backward.I see the "Giskard CC crossover" schematic has the LF phase inverted with respect to the other drivers but since mine are bi-amp-only, isn't the ultimate goal to ensure everything is in phase after going through the crossovers, reversed or not? :dont-know

There is a polarity test function on the Neutrik MR1 but they duplicated two pages in the manual and left out one so mine goes from page 12 to 13 to 14 to 13 to 14 to 17 and has no instructions for the polarity test! Epic Fail, as my daughter says. Even the German section is missing it. :)

boputnam

02-08-2009, 07:46 PM

...Running the sweep with my ears and my wife's (neither of us calibrated) it seems I cut too much of the bass. This can be very trying - it is far too subjective, and will frustrate. Try and get some measurement tool(s) to see what is going on. This will also help you train to decifer what your ears are hearing.

I haven't stopped listening to music since I woke up this morning.:)

But, remember - I thiink those 2245H's are "new"? If so, their break-in will take a long, long time.

I gave them some smiley face EQ from the DBX 2231, and then just hit the EQ Bypass button and adjusted the electronic xover and the L-Pads. Why? Is the EQ curve used solely for this tuning method, or is it something you leave in, Scotty?

*Bo is an excellent driving instructor for illegal aliens so something like this should be a walk in the park...LOLYassir! And, glad to know that alien driver is far from the fire storms, Ian. :(

As the drivers are already reversed internally on the 4343/4344/4345 I think that means your drivers are now electrically in-phase if you reversed them externally (to compensate).Yes, Heather - be careful of this. You may be right because of the 4th Order slope of the XR1001, but I need to review the schematics (and I'm bushed from coming off a small tour...). Have you found them more to your liking, this way?

Last night mid the 1st set, we inverted the subs on a sizeable system in Tahoe - the systems guys (nameless here) insisted that in over 1,000 shows no-one had ever requested this. It immediately smoothed the response curve and gave ME control over the VLF - I was able to flatten the GEQ, removing some nasty notches they had been accustomed to "needing". Clearly, there was some unintended additive/doubling in the acoustic domain with being electrically in-phase (relates to the phenomenon of "physical offset"). The LF loading at stage was abruptly far, far less - the bassist was able to hear better and so turned down his rig. And, I could ease the whole system gain down because things became far more intelligible. :)

Robh3606

02-08-2009, 09:07 PM

I see the "Giskard CC crossover" schematic has the LF phase inverted with respect to the other drivers but since mine are bi-amp-only, isn't the ultimate goal to ensure everything is in phase after going through the crossovers, reversed or not? :dont-know

No it depends on the crossovers type used and the slopes 12db vs 24db. For example I can use either an M552 or my DX-1 to biamp my 4344's. The M552 is 24db L/R and the DX-1 is 12dB. When I hook up the DX-1 the woofer phase is per the original design because it uses 12db slopes like the passive network. When I use the M552 I must reverse the woofer phase for it to sum properly because it uses the 24Db slopes.

To keep it simple general rule of thump is 12db reverse polarity on one driver, 18db can end up either way and 24db in phase.

Looking at a standard cabinet you would simply reverse the phase on the woofer to use the Ashley or any other crossover using the 24db filters.

To see whats what take a 1.5 volt battery and see which direction the 2122 goes in. The series caps in the crossover will protect compresion driver and ring radiator from the DC. All you need to do is verify the woofer using the same method and connect them so they both go in the same direction. Once you do that you know the polarties are correct.

Rob:)

boputnam

02-08-2009, 10:15 PM

...isn't the ultimate goal to ensure everything is in phase after going through the crossovers, reversed or not? :dont-knowIndeed, not. (to quote my byline...)

As Rob succinctly sez...

No...

You need (er, should...) spend some time reading the various JBL network schematics and understand the acoustic importance of having, say, the MF, out-of-phase with the LF and HF. That is quite common (typical) in 3-way cabinets. Likewise, you should experiment yourself and listen to the differences. Your road may seem long now, but it is fulfilling... :)

edit/addition:
I'll take a stab at breaking through the mystery.

In the zones of crossover, if the drivers are in-phase you will have an acoustic doubling (assuming here, symmetric crossover slopes). That is, the two driver's outputs will acoustically sum within the area of crossover. This may not be desireable and can muddy the response in that region. By electrically inverting the input to one of the drivers, each driver's outputs in the area of crossover will be acoustically out-of-phase and will cancel. The result is that each driver's output will be more, say, "individual". This is typically desireable and enables more precise control (filtering) of the drivers' response to afford flat (uncolored) response.

Ian Mackenzie

02-09-2009, 01:24 AM

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll check out the phase from LF to the rest but I'm slightly confused:

The Ashly manual states: I see the "Giskard CC crossover" schematic has the LF phase inverted with respect to the other drivers but since mine are bi-amp-only, isn't the ultimate goal to ensure everything is in phase after going through the crossovers, reversed or not? :dont-know

If your only sligther confused at this point you deserve a medal!!

I dont know anyone that has not had trouble with organising the polarity "thing" with these systems.

In addition to Rob and Bo's fine responses : The wiring of schematic of the original in the stock system inverted the phase of the mid, horn and slot after the L-pads.

Bi amp function removes the LF low pass and Mid high pass filters only.
Thus in biamp mode with positive to Red the polarity to the mid, horn and slot will still be reversed as far as what the drivers see.

However, because your crossover was made by a "mortal sole" it is industrious to confirm the true polarity of the wiring and not trust the faithfulness of the schematic.

The 1.5 volt battery is a good sanity check.

Hey, Glad to see your enjoying it. :applaud:

I had a smilar reaction with my diy 4345 effort.

I think we are all in debt to GT for being so supportive of this era.:)

Krunchy

02-09-2009, 06:54 AM

If your only sligther confused at this point you deserve a medal!!

:rotfl: :rotfl:

Glad to hear you're Ok Ian! Its a terrible thing that happened there :(

Phil I think you are off to a great start and seem to really be enjoying the monsters.
Have fun, as there is plenty of tweaking ahead :)

Also, thank you Bo, Ian & Robh for further demystifying this particular area, its always helpful, thanks guys!

BMWCCA

02-09-2009, 10:10 AM

But, remember - I thiink those 2245H's are "new"? If so, their break-in will take a long, long time.I believe they've got about two years on them. They should be broken-in enough by now! By color code, the leads are reversed LF to HF at the amps by color-code tags on them the way I got them. But since they go through the HF crossovers, to a Speakon connector at the cabinet, then to the drivers, that leaves at least two other places they could have been re-reversed, regardless of the intent. I'll do the battery trick later today just to see where they're set, then do a listening test with the LF reversed to see what difference that makes. Unfortunately I don't have a rack in this system, just an old glass-front side-by-side cabinet that's hard to move, though with each progressive adaption and upgrade I cut more out of the rear panel to increase access. With better casters (or less weight) it might roll better but I'd have to get a floor jack under it at this point to even begin to make that modification. Historically it's only moved maybe three times in the past twenty-five years. It was pretty well mated to the hardwood floor.

I do have an empty six-foot rack in storage but, remarkably, while my wife has somewhat begrudgingly accepted the 4345's in her small living room, she seems to be resisting a six-foot rack! :D

boputnam

02-09-2009, 10:55 AM

I do have an empty six-foot rack in storage but, remarkably, while my wife has somewhat begrudgingly accepted the 4345's in her small living room, she seems to be resisting a six-foot rack! :DGet a smaller rack...

Seriously, consider moving the "audio hardware shrine", as I call them, out of the living area and into an area out of view. You'll be amazed how the wifey will love this idea - suddenly she can decorate the room!

My family room system "drive rack" resides in the pantry - I run twisted pair from the amps to the 4345's (approx. 25-ft run). It would be better if I sent line level to the amps positioned closer to the cabinets but getting approval for an amp rack in the laundry room seems harder than for the pantry! Go figure...

BMWCCA

02-09-2009, 12:02 PM

Get a smaller rack...

Seriously, consider moving the "audio hardware shrine", as I call them, out of the living area and into an area out of view. You'll be amazed how the wifey will love this idea - suddenly she can decorate the room! I think a larger house is more important. We're working on it.

I did once offer to install everything in the wall between the living room and the kitchen, but then access to the back would be inside the kitchen cabinets and we don't have enough of those either! It's not just the basics; the family uses both a VCR (time-shifting) and a DVD player for TV. (Watching Transformers using the 4345's was an eye-opener for my daughter last night.) Then there's the B&O turntable, the Nak Dragon I don't want to put back in it's box just yet, a tuner, pre-EQ combo, Ashly, and storage for at least some of the CDs within the rack. It's not the size, we're used to that, it's the recent activity that requires moving it and rearranging it. This, too, will end.

My idea in a new home would be to mount it all in an opening hinged like a door, so it fits flush with a wall, shelf unit, or cabinet, but swings out for access. It has to remain proximate since I can't see owning equipment with remote control volume any time soon, other than my old Sony single-tray CD player. At one time (in college) I built the Mac C20 into a waterbed frame with a hinged padded cover as a side rail. It served as a seat but gave access to adjustments right from the bed, too. Too much stuff now.

hjames

02-09-2009, 12:12 PM

I think a larger house is more important. We're working on it.

It's not just the basics; the family uses both a VCR (time-shifting) and a DVD player for TV. (Watching Transformers using the 4345's was an eye-opener for my daughter last night.)

Yeah - but you don't DO home theatre or any of that ...:applaud:

Its amazing how superb speakers like those can change your vision ...
even our little 4341s really add a lot to a movie experience - and you have enough smaller speakers like L7s or even L1s to handle rear surround duties.

Do you have remote control capability in your system yet?

Once they are in love with the sound, making it user friendly goes a long way ...

Have you seen the TIVO ...?

BMWCCA

02-09-2009, 01:20 PM

Yeah - but you don't DO home theatre or any of that ...:applaud:
Have you seen the TIVO ...?Luddites here. Same excuses apply: not enough room. Don't want to spend money on HT pre-amp and certainly don't want to NOT use my Crowns with these boys. And it's only a 27" CRT, not even a flat one!

The family was listening to the Grammies last night and I suggested putting it over the speakers. They told me they'd tried that but they couldn't hear the vocals. So I tried it. As soon as the next singing act came on it sounded like the soloists were being picked up by an area mic. So we switched back to the TV. Guess what? They sounded just like they were being picked up by an area mic. How ironic that an awards show for the recording industry could not even engineer the program well enough to hear the soloists. The B.B.King, John Mayer, and whoever brief performance was embarrassing. Several other soloists kept looking at the monitors and the mics expecting someone to do something. The orchestra was cooking. You just couldn't hear the singers. Sounded like every wireless mic had taken the evening off.

Oh yeah, both LF and MF in the left cabinet test in-phase the way they're wired right now (which is how NZ had the cables taped red vs. black). It's possible he had them reversed at the amp output but I don't recall noticing the colors not matching the binding posts. Of course we did have that bit of confusion with the UHF and HF leads, but it turned out they actually were hooked-up correctly, just labeled incorrectly. I will test the right cabinet next and then figure out where to make the change to having the MF and LF our of phase (that is the "correct" way . . . correct?) and then how to label it for future archealogists who may find me mummified with these—or in them if I don't get the living room back together soon! :banghead:

I'm thinking swapping them at the binding posts on the crossover with a label stating "wired out-of-phase on purpose!". Anything to gain by switching only the 2122H and leaving the HF and UHF "in phase"? I suspect not. If I swap leads at the crossover it makes the amp connections make a bit more sense, though the circuit diagram shows the reversed leads on the 2245 . . .

Whatever. My head hurts.

BMWCCA

02-09-2009, 03:26 PM

Hmmm. :hmm:

First impression with the LF out-of-phase is it's really lacking in the huge bass kick these things deliver. Switched 'em back. Now it's beginning to sound unnaturally boosted. I think I said when I first got them up and running that I had to turn the LF down a bit on the Ashly. I probably blamed it on fifty-years of listening to D130's. Switched 'em back to out-of-phase and I think everything sounds a bit more natural and balanced with the polarity reversed on the 2245. It also helps to realize that 12-o'clock on the mid-bass L-pad is about minus-one instead of zero like the other two. I'll try it for a while and then switch the polarity back and see how it sounds. No instrumented tests for the time being. Time to play music and listen. And hopefully enjoy!

They sound great flat but now at low volume (my wife keeps walking out of the room and saying it sounds too loud when she comes back in!) they do need a bit of Fletcher-Munson curve on them; I suppose another indication they may have been a bit unnatural on the bottom end before.

Now playing: Darol Anger and Mike Marshall's latest: Woodshop.
If you had the good sense to pick up their classic Chiaroscuro when it was released nearly 25-years ago, you'll love this one, too.

4313B

02-09-2009, 04:22 PM

Since you are bi-amping the L-Pad on the 2122H should be wide open. Adjust the other two L-Pads accordingly.

BMWCCA

02-09-2009, 04:37 PM

Since you are bi-amping the L-Pad on the 2122H should be wide open. Adjust the other two L-Pads accordingly.I'm learning something new every day! Makes it worth getting up in the morning. :D

Y'all wouldn't be messin' with my head now, would ya? ;)

I'll give it a try. No wonder NZ never put the grilles on the damn things!

Robh3606

02-09-2009, 04:44 PM

I'll give it a try. No wonder NZ never put the grilles on the damn things!

Once you get them dialed in it will all be worth it.

Rob:)

BMWCCA

02-09-2009, 04:52 PM

Once you get them dialed in it will all be worth it. :)So far, I thought I had them dialed-in—every day! And every day a new suggestion comes up that improves them but leaves me stupefied.

I did mention a couple of days ago that I didn't think the 2122H's were really doing much. Thanks to you all for your help. :D

I think I'd better write a manual for when I'm dead and gone . . . or you guys are! ;)

boputnam

02-09-2009, 06:42 PM

I did mention a couple of days ago that I didn't think the 2122H's were really doing much. They will not astound you in their overall SPL - they can be subtle, but are critical in filling-out the frequency response. They carry the bulk of the range presented by the human voice. If the network is operating as designed and the L-pads are set proper, you should be good.

I'd love to see some response plots of these badboys...

First impression with the LF out-of-phase is it's really lacking in the huge bass kick these things deliver. Uh, that's ridiculous (I'm not merely being an asshole, I'm just wary of psychoacoustic impressions).

Inverting the phase does not disable the woofer - it most only impacts the response in the area of the crossover to the 2122H, in this case, near 290Hz. The response in areas I would characterize as providing "huge bass kick" would be in the 80 - 120Hz range, and largely unaffected by this inverted signal.

I hope you are running only one channel at a time during these tests? If you invert the signal to one 2245H while running both cabinets, it will certainly sound crummy - the two 2245H's are cancelling each other out. But you know that...

BMWCCA

02-09-2009, 07:00 PM

Inverting the phase does not disable the woofer - it most only impacts the response in the area of the crossover to the 2122H, in this case, near 290Hz. The response in areas I would characterize as providing "huge bass kick" would be in the 80 - 120Hz range, and largely unaffected by this inverted signal.That's exactly what I was expecting. I don't think you're being an asshole, but what I heard was totally different than what I expected. More like having both 18's out of phase canceling each other in the same room compared to the thump with them in-phase. Maybe the messenger needs to be shot but that was what my wife and I both felt. Maybe its a resonance in a too-small room. I could just STFU but y'all cut this thread out from the Ashly thread just for me, so I'm giving the play-by-play from my perspective, and I do appreciate the help . . . and obviously need it! :D

I'm running the system with the 18's in reverse compared to the 10's now. I'm about to set the MF L-pads to WOT, as suggested. Instrumentation is on the way. Might not have a chance to use it for a week or so. I may swap in the Soundcraftsmen Pro-Control-Four and Pro-EQ-44 first so I can make the most of it.

Everyone has to start their education somewhere. ;)

boputnam

02-09-2009, 07:04 PM

More like having both 18's out of phase canceling each other in the same room compared to the thump with them in-phase.Again, you were running only one channel during the test, right?

I could just STFU but y'all cut this thread out from the Ashly thread just for me, so I'm giving the play-by-play from my perspective, and I do appreciate the help . . . Not at all, man. I was about to do it, but thought Rob did (and I thanked him), but it was the damned Widget that got it done!

This place is all about learning and sharing. This thread is how we all like it to be - basically on topic and with insightful OT stuff. Everybody wins.

As I said early-on, my guess was that you have some real gems, but they need some tuning, or something. I fear the prior owners left their trials too early - your persistence will reward. The right eyes are on this... ;)

Mr. Widget

02-09-2009, 07:29 PM

I'm running the system with the 18's in reverse compared to the 10's now.First I should admit that I haven't read any posts on this thread that have been posted in the last couple of days, but this one caught my eye... I guess you are not happy with the bass of the system...?

I am sure you'll get a handle on it. I am posting simply to alert you to something you may or may not know. Since you are now going active between the 2245 and 2122 it will be harder to determine the correct polarity. Some amps invert, others do not... same with line stages, so unless you have identical amps and signal processing going to the drivers from each set of the outputs from the Ashly, it is possible that one side is inverted relative to the other.

This is just one of many reasons why we were talking about the importance of good measurement equipment to aid in the set up of more complex systems.

Keep going... it's all part of the journey.

Widget

boputnam

02-09-2009, 07:40 PM

Since you are now going active ... it will be harder to determine the correct polarity. Some amps invert, others do not... same with line stages, so unless you have identical amps Dammit, Widget! :bash: Good one.

I believe, somewhere, 200 posts ago he mentioned using different Crown amps. I wouldn't suspect this to be a problem, but it needs to be checked. He's also using some adapters - again, an area to double-check to assure intended polarity.

Ian Mackenzie

02-09-2009, 08:06 PM

I told you Bo was an excellent driving instructor...LOL

Anyway going from a "normal" loudspeaker and doing woofer tests with the 4345 don't be surprised if you get a knock on the front door from the bomb squad complaining that your neighbour is pinned to the pan for fear of it being booby trapped (like Lethal Weapon)....LOL

Ian

BMWCCA

02-09-2009, 10:29 PM

First, when I ran the sweep I was surprised to see how far down the 10" actually had a significant audible contribution. It could have been into the 120Hz range, I don't recall. I did this by muting the LF output on the Ashly and running the sweep for 4-seconds per octave. Likewise I'd expressed my surprise at how far up the 18" played doing the reverse. I'll sweep again tomorrow and confirm the range. Maybe the Ashly's at too tight a notch, or at least maybe that explains the difference I heard swapping polarity.

Yes, I did one channel at a time after checking polarity with the battery. But not for long. I mostly listened to both channels swapping polarity at both LF leads together. I also ran it with both channels using a mono (A+B) signal. I can go back and check them independently. I can even feed them a tone at the crossover frequency and test it there if that would tell me anything worthwhile.

No, the amps are not identical. I'm using a Crown D150A-II for the HF range to the x-overs and a Crown DC300A-II for the LF direct to the 2245Hs. There are no adapters other than RCA to 1/4" into the Ashly. From the Ashly to the Crowns I used 1/4" shielded cable with the shield to the sleeve on both Switchcraft plug ends.

Perhaps I will have time to play some more tomorrow.

Ian Mackenzie

02-10-2009, 05:45 AM

Well as long as you are enjoying the fun.

On the tone the room and location of the enclosures will play a significant part in what you actually hear.

But assuming the woofer and mid cone are electrically in phase try reponse position 6 to 9.

This will probably give you the most even response and the smoothest response in the vertical plane. This is the strength of the 24 db LR filters.

Attached is simulation of the polar pattern for LR 24 db crossover at response postion 6 based on an actually baffle layout of the 4345. The plot is taken from a mic position at the horn height and 3 meters from the front of the baffle. The response is quite even around the crossover point until we get up to around 800 hertz where it dips a a bit relative to the 290 hertz point. This is all relative to the listening height so don't get too excited about it. Kitchen loudspeakers these are not!

So the idea might be to try the crossover at response position 6 and carefully set the low mid balance on that basis.

Then make small adjustments to the level of mid high amp.

This is perhaps the most sensitive adjustment in the loudspeaker and could take some time to find the best overall positon.

If the L pads are accurate which they are generally not 0 position is -3 db from the full postion for the mid cone and - 4 db for the horn and the slot (I have actually measured it)

This particular woofer loads up very easily will room wall and floor boundaries so you can expect some reinforcement in the bass around 50-120 hetz depending on the room and the location of the enclosures.

What we are saying here is you can finesse and fart around quite alot with these 4 ways but you will definately know when they are dialed in as Rob says.

Edit : the last curve shows the out of phase condition with a null at the crossover point. The null extends from 200 - 500 but is gradual.

BMWCCA

02-10-2009, 07:13 AM

But assuming the woofer and mid cone are electrically in phase try reponse position 6 to 9.

This will probably give you the most even response and the smoothest response in the vertical plane. This is the strength of the 24 db LR filters.

What we are saying here is you can finesse and fart around quite alot with these 4 ways but you will definately know when they are dialed in as Rob says.I'm listening to them seated which seems to be a perfect height given the driver placement in the baffles. The room is very small and unforgiving as to placement of such big boxes given constraints of windows and fireplace. The boxes have about nine-feet between them but they're in corners toed-in about 40º with exits from the room off-axis in front of both speaker locations. Listening position is nine-feet from each speaker. I knew I was far off from an ideal layout before I began the odyssey but that's what I have to deal with at present. :)

What I guess I find conflicting or confusing still is information and suggestions on the phasing. Just above Ian shows data that assumes "the woofer and mid cone are electrically in phase". Yesterday the suggestion was to make sure they were OUT of phase. Now assuming what the Ashly manual states is correct:
The outputs of all Ashly crossovers are in phase with the input.
Assuming that your power amplifiers do not invert phase (most do not), the signals from all your amps should be in phase. then is the suggestion to have the mid-bass and bass cones ultimately OUT of phase, or IN phase with each other? My understanding was that OUT was intended to improve clarity around the crossover point compared to IN-phase and was how the system was designed to operate. Or was the phase reversal on the network schematic only intended to compensate for an internal phase-reversal inherent in the stock crossover and the goal is to actually have the mid-bass and bass drivers IN phase with respect to how they operate? :dont-know

At this point I'll spend the day listening to them OUT of phase and later switch them over if I'm so inclined, and also run a sweep to determine the actual frequency range of the 18" and the 10" beyond the crossover point, and at "6" versus "9" on the response setting, just for the sake of argument.

4313B

02-10-2009, 07:54 AM

Y'all wouldn't be messin' with my head now, would ya? ;)Maybe... I can't remember which network you are running.

The bottom line is, the whole point of using a bi-amp only network is to run the 10-inch 3-way as hot as possible. You shouldn't even be running an L-Pad on the 10-inch at all, nor a fixed pad either. I probably designed the fixed pads on the compression drivers to run at least 3 dB hotter (again I can't remember exactly which network you are running).

For an example of how a bi-amp only 4344/4345 network should look see the 4355 network. The bi-amp only 4344/4345 network should end up being maybe 3 dB cooler than the 4355. Something like that, I can't remember exactly right now. I think the tapped autotransformers were set to -4 dB in the 4355 and -10 dB in the full passive 4344/4345. If I remember correctly the bandpass filter on the 2122 also acts like a bump filter and increases output slightly, I can't remember for sure. There's a whole lot of padding in the full passive 4344/4345 (and resulting heat generation) that just doesn't need to be there for a bi-amp only version. JBL did what they did because they had to in order to give the options they did.

Stock 4344/4345 (http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Network%20Schematics/3145%20Network.pdf)

Stock 4355 (http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Network%20Schematics/3155%20Network.pdf)

Alot of guys like to run these 10-inch and 12-inch 3-way top ends with tubes.

First, when I ran the sweep I was surprised to see how far down the 10" actually had a significant audible contribution. It could have been into the 120Hz range, I don't recall.Once again, the 2122H was "good" down to around 70 Hz (-9 to -10 dB). It worked the same way as the 112H/2108H. The 2121 and 2123 can't do that. Now, JBL did change vendors for the 2122 kit so it may well be that the newer versions don't go down quite so deep. I haven't check the newer versions. There is one "problem" with running the 112/2108 and 2122 all the way down like JBL did in the L212, the short coil. The 2121 and 2123 have longer coils. The 2121 had breakup issues and is to be avoided, that's why JBL came up with the 2122. The 2123 doesn't have the linearity on the bottom end that the 2122 has, above 300 Hz though in these 4-way Studio Monitors it evidently doesn't matter.

BMWCCA

02-10-2009, 08:46 AM

Maybe... I can't remember which network you are running.
This one: http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=52286&postcount=124 without the 2345H section, of course.

The bottom line is, the whole point of using a bi-amp only network is to run the 10-inch 3-way as hot as possible. You shouldn't even be running an L-Pad on the 10-inch at all, nor a fixed pad either.Easy enough. At the beginning I did say I didn't think the MF driver was doing much. I'll run it WOT (sorry: that's Wide Open Throttle for the non-automotive among us). I did say there seemed to be a sharp rise in SPL in the 2k-4k range which this might help. Again, it's only my ears at this point. Then maybe I'll put the polarity back to where both cone drivers match and see what that gets me. Unless they're "supposed to be" out of phase. :banghead:

Thanks. :D

Ian Mackenzie

02-10-2009, 01:40 PM

Yes if the L pads are up full it eliminates a few possibilities:)

boputnam

02-10-2009, 03:26 PM

...I can't remember which network you are running. Here is the network schematic from above (post #33) where he originally posted the schematic. The imbedded link had terminated :hmm: but I restored the image. :)

True to original form of the 3145, it shows the 2245H is out-of-phase with the other three elements.

hjames

02-10-2009, 04:13 PM

Here is the network schematic from above (post #33) where he originally posted the schematic. The imbedded link had terminated :hmm: but I restored the image. :)

True to original form of the 3145, it shows the 2245H is out-of-phase with the other three elements.

Which is why I kept telling Phil to reverse the amp-to-woofer polarity!
As you all kept telling me when I was setting mine up!

boputnam

02-10-2009, 04:25 PM

Ian Mackenzie

02-10-2009, 05:45 PM

Yes its all going to drive us insane.

Ian:barf:

BMWCCA

02-10-2009, 06:39 PM

And I thought I was the crazy one—not being able to either ask the right question or understand the answer. ;)
But I did ask if the schematic showed the polarity reversed on the 2245H because something in the passive network for the LF reversed the polarity and one was then supposed to reverse it at the 2245 just to correct it and keep both cones in phase. Since I'm using the Ashly instead of the passive LF network and the Ashly says it does not reverse polarity, am I supposed to reverse the 2245H anyway? Is the desired result to have both cones in-phase with each other? Or out?

Well, they're running out-of-phase now. My untrained ears balked at what I heard in Aoife O'Donovan's voice on one song at somewhat loud volume, so I swapped the woofers to put them out-of-phase with the Mid-bass drivers. Her voice seemed to come in more clearly after the swap, but I'm sure there's something like "persistance of vision" with ears, too. I'm afraid I'm no longer being obective—or capable of it—anymore after too many swaps. I'll wait and see what the instruments say about it.

Still having fun, happy with what I have, and waiting to confirm that they're working to their best potential.

Thanks, again. :applaud:

Robh3606

02-10-2009, 06:56 PM

Do yourself a favor and stick to what you know is the correct polarity. If you keep swapping polarity and changing driver levels your are not going to get anywhere. You need to get them set-up correctly polarity wise first and then start looking at driver levels and room placement. Their size limits you but placement is key.

We all have been saying for years that these larger systems are not plug and play. It takes work to get them too properly integrate into a home setting. You need to be focused and organized. Take notes as you go so you can document what you find that works and not loose it trying something else.

If you find yourself getting frustrated walk away and come back with a clear head. Please don't misunderstand this post it's a been there done that. I know how difficult it can seem and how frustrating it can become. Just remember to start with the basics and build on them as you go. Figure Phase, Driver Level and Placement are going to go a long way to making you a happy camper.

In case you missed it

No it depends on the crossovers type used and the slopes 12db vs 24db. For example I can use either an M552 or my DX-1 to biamp my 4344's. The M552 is 24db L/R and the DX-1 is 12dB. When I hook up the DX-1 the woofer phase is per the original design because it uses 12db slopes like the passive network. When I use the M552 I must reverse the woofer phase for it to sum properly because it uses the 24Db slopes.

To keep it simple general rule of thump is 12db reverse polarity on one driver, 18db can end up either way and 24db in phase.

Looking at a standard cabinet you would simply reverse the phase on the woofer to use the Ashley or any other crossover using the 24db filters.

To see whats what take a 1.5 volt battery and see which direction the 2122 goes in. The series caps in the crossover will protect compresion driver and ring radiator from the DC. All you need to do is verify the woofer using the same method and connect them so they both go in the same direction. Once you do that you know the polarties are correct.

Rob:)

boputnam

02-10-2009, 07:02 PM

Well, they're running out-of-phase now. My untrained ears balked at what I heard in Aoife O'Donovan's voice on one song at somewhat loud volume, so I swapped the (2245H) woofers to put them out-of-phase with the (2122H) Mid-bass drivers. Her voice seemed to come in more clearly after the swap...IMO, that is the correct wiring with your signal path.

And, the characteristic you describe is indicative of not having blurred response in the zone crossover - definition is the goal.
We all have been saying for years that these larger systems are not plug and play. It takes work to get them to properly integrate into a home setting. +1

And even when you do get them right, in 6-mos time you'll do it all over again, and again - improving with each.

BMWCCA

02-10-2009, 07:20 PM

Do yourself a favor and stick to what you know is the correct polarity. Umm, it would appear from the various posts in this thread that no one knows what the "correct" polarity is. Or did I just step in from the Twilight Zone? :beamup:
Shall we decide what is "correct" with a poll? :D
Anyone ever check whether the MF and LF end up in-phase with each other using the stock passive crossover and the LF wired "out-of-phase" as shown in the schematic? For any 43XX 4-way?

It's very interesting to see such a suggestion when no one can agree as to what the "correct" polarity is! Heck, what I "know" isn't worth squat. I'm just listening to the music! :) Your guys are the experts, and can't seem to agree. :dont-know

Once more, with gusto: Does the network schematic indicate reversed leads to the 2245H because there's a phase shift within the network and reversing it at the woofer ultimately puts it back IN-PHASE with the Mid-bass driver? Or does JBL want the two cones to run out-of-phase by design?

If the answer is here already, my apologies for missing it! ;)

And now I just read Bo's reply, so maybe we have confirmation of conformation. Thanks.

boputnam

02-10-2009, 07:55 PM

Anyone ever check whether the MF and LF end up in-phase with each other using the stock passive crossover and the LF wired "out-of-phase" as shown in the schematic? For any 43XX 4-way? I don't understand the question. They will not be in-phase by definition.

Your guys are the experts, and can't seem to agree. :dont-knowBecause you are in "One Man's Land" using a network none of us has ever seen nor qualified.

Once more, with gusto: Does the network schematic indicate reversed leads to the 2245H because there's a phase shift within the network and reversing it at the woofer ultimately puts it back IN-PHASE with the Mid-bass driver?Uh, no.

Or does JBL want the two cones to run out-of-phase by design?Uh, yes - as we have been saying, over and over...

But again:

...you are in "One Man's Land" using a network none of us has ever seen nor qualified.

BMWCCA

02-10-2009, 08:08 PM

Uh, yes - as we have been saying, over and over...I appreciate that clarity, though it had been postulated within this thread that the stock network ended up 180º out and that explained why the schematic shows the LF connection reversed. And that the Ashly didn't do this, so . . .
Well, Heather, that depends... I was referring to the OEM 3145 schematic, vs the DIY version reportedly used here. If running passive, that is how they are wired.

However, the question arises as to what to do when running active (bi-amped). The 3145 has -12dB slopes for the HPF; the 5234A used -18dB slopes. The Ashly XR1001 has -24dB slopes.
I'm good with it swapped the way it is. :D

Onward! Thanks. Got to make those notes in the system log book . . .

Robh3606

02-10-2009, 08:11 PM

http://www.rane.com/n160fig5.gif
Figure 5. Frequency response of 4th-order Linkwitz-Riley crossover.

A summary of the characteristics of a Linkwitz-Riley crossover:
1. Absolutely flat amplitude response throughout the passband with a steep 24 dB/octave rolloff rate after the crossover point.
2. The acoustic sum of the two driver responses is unity at crossover. (Amplitude response of each is -6 dB at crossover, i.e., there is no peaking in the summed acoustic output.)
3. Zero phase difference between drivers at crossover. (Lobing error equals zero, i.e., no tilt to the polar radiation pattern.) In addition, the phase difference of zero degrees through crossover places the lobe of the summed acoustic output on axis at all frequencies.
4. The low pass and high pass outputs are everywhere in phase. (This guarantees symmetry of the polar response about the crossover point.)
5. All drivers are always wired the same (in phase).

http://www.rane.com/note160.html

From the Ashly Manual

6.6 System Phase

The outputs of all Ashly crossovers are in phase
with the input. Assuming that your power amplifiers do
not invert phase (most do not), the signals from all your
amps should be in phase. If all speakers are the same
brand, it is easy to keep them in phase. With different
brands of speakers used together, phasing becomes a little
more confusing. It is important to keep all the speakers
within each band in phase with each other, and equally
important to keep all bands of the system in phase as well.
If this is not done, loss of level and pattern control at the
crossover frequency will result.

http://www.ashly.com/manuals/xman04.pdf

Rob:)

Fred Sanford

02-10-2009, 08:14 PM

Well, Heather, that depends... I was referring to the OEM 3145 schematic, vs the DIY version reportedly used here. If running passive, that is how they are wired.

However, the question arises as to what to do when running active (bi-amped). The 3145 has -12dB slopes for the HPF; the 5234A used -18dB slopes. The Ashly XR1001 has -24dB slopes.

:)

I thought the XR1001 was -12dB slopes...good thing I didn't say/type anything...but that may be one reason why folks don't appear to be agreeing on the phase for the 18" (aside from the grey area of the passive x-over wiring). Sorry if I confused things over the phone, I'm not familiar with this series crossover, but I know I did say to check me against the manual.

je

JeffW

02-10-2009, 08:55 PM

I'm too stupid to even breathe on my own, but...

When it says "All drivers are always wired the same (in phase)", does this take into consideration the JBL trait of positive voltage on the black terminal giving forward cone motion on some drivers? Or do you just hook all positives to red and go on down the road? In other words, is it color of terminal or polarity of wire that determines "in phase".

And again, sorry if this is a resoundingly stupid question.

Robh3606

02-10-2009, 09:21 PM

And again, sorry if this is a resoundingly stupid question.

I wouldn't say that it easy to get it wrong or make a mistake. What they are talking about is the direction the cone moves in. It should all be in the same direction with cone drivers. Horns because of their length and depending on the crossover frequency can really confuse things but fortunately we don't have that issue in this case.

Again from the Ashly Manual

Phase of CONE speakers can be checked by connecting
a 1.5 volt battery to the speaker and observing
which way the cone moves. Don’t try this with compression
drivers! The most common convention is that (+)
voltage on the (+) terminal moves the cone forward. A
notable exception to this convention is JBL. A (+) voltage
on the red terminal of a JBL speaker moves the cone
backward. If all your speakers are the same brand, just
connect them all the same way; if not, it’s best to test.
Unfortunately, compression drivers cannot be tested this
way. Ask the driver manufacturer.

Rob:)

BMWCCA

02-10-2009, 09:28 PM

Sorry if I confused things over the phone, I'm not familiar with this series crossover, but I know I did say to check me against the manual. You didn't (confuse me) and you did say to check the manual, which I did. But we're going over old news now, so let me repeat what I quoted already from the Ashly manual:
6.6 System Phase
The outputs of all Ashly crossovers are in phase with the input. Assuming that your power amplifiers do not invert phase (most do not), the signals from all your amps should be in phase. If all speakers are the same brand, it is easy to keep them in phase. With different brands of speakers used together, phasing becomes a little more confusing. It is important to keep all the speakers within each band in phase with each other, and equally important to keep all bands of the system in phase as well. If this is not done, loss of level and pattern control at the crossover frequency will result.and:
5.4 Response
This control, found adjacent to the crossover frequency control, adjusts the damping of the filter affecting the response shape of the filters at the crossover point (see drawing). The dial calibrations refer to the amount of attenuation effected by the filter at the crossover frequency, i.e., a setting of 3dB means that the filter’s high-pass and low-pass outputs are each “rolled off 3dB at the crossover point”. This describes Butterworth filter response, or a gentle 3dB peak at the crossover point when the two filter output signals overlap. To obtain a flat signal, or “Linkowitz-Riley” response through the crossover region, set the Response control to “6”. This attenuates each output of the filter by 6dB at the crossover point (two identical signals added together yield a +6dB increase). To obtain a notch at the crossover point, turn down the response control past “6” to best suit your needs.

NOTE: The Response control is not a “slope” control. A 12dB/octave crossover will always have a slope of 12dB/octave regardless of the setting of this control. Likewise, a 24dB/octave crossover will always have a slope of 24dB/octave. The Response control only affects filter response shape in the immediate vicinity of the crossover frequency; the ultimate crossover slope is a fixed parameter. I'm set at "6" on the response control, as Fred originally suggested.

I really didn't ignore anyone's phase suggestions, there just seemed to be some disagreement as to what phase choice was "correct". Slope is mentioned as having a bearing on phase, but Ashly says it ain't so in their case. Even now it seems Rob's quotes on crossover performance suggest "All drivers are always wired the same (in phase)." But, we DON'T want them that way IN THIS CASE, right? Am I the only one confused? I'm going with Bo and Heather's suggestion to run the 18" out-of-phase with the 10", as determined by battery test from the amp output (through the CC networks). Anyone suggesting otherwise, please remember you're speaking to a child here: The first failure in communication is assuming any is taking place! Please explain such polarity statements in context with what we're trying to achieve here with respect to the 43XX 4-ways. And anyone wanting to do the battery test on a 43XX 4-way with stock passive networks wired with the LF leads inverted at the driver as per the schematic who can tell me if they ultimately are in-phase, or not, has my gratitude.

G'night! :)

Allanvh5150

02-10-2009, 09:29 PM

BMWCCA

02-10-2009, 09:37 PM

Having the 2245 out of phase with the rest of the drivers is correct! When you run a current through and inductor you get a 90 degree lagging (perfect world) current. When you run through a capacitor you will get a 90 degree leading current. Reversing the polarity of the 2245 only, puts everything back in phase.Simple electrical theory.:)But, again, what you're saying is we WIRE them out of phase to put them back IN PHASE with respect to cone movement, to compensate for some reversal in the network circuit performance. What Heather and Bo are saying is that we want them OUT OF PHASE in the way the two cones operate to clean up the frequencies around the crossover point. We have two opposing theories at work here. I think I understand the electrical part enough by now to realize that. One side wants to swap polarity to achieve the end result of everything being in-phase. The other wants the two cone elements out of phase on purpose. Each is adamant that I should understand this and just do it! :banghead:

Robh3606

02-10-2009, 09:55 PM

Allanvh5150

02-10-2009, 09:58 PM

Hmmmmmm..............OK. lets talk about the crossover point. Say our crossover point is 1000Hz. If we check the phase of a test signal from the woofer output, through the inductor, we will find that it is -90 degrees out of phase. If we then check the output from the mid we will find that the signal is +90 degrees out of phase. This will result in a lager than normal attenuation at the crossover point. To correct this and return the crossover point to the correct spec, reverse the polarity of the woofer. Forget about +V onto black gives a forward cone motion. Speaker manufacturers do this to give us a point of reference. AC is a totaly different animal. You need to think about the system as a whole.:)

BMWCCA

02-10-2009, 10:40 PM

Did you read the Ashly Manual??:scold:
What does it tell you to do??;)
Forget about any advice you are getting here it's all:bs:.
It's a good manual and what you need to set it up is all in there.
All you have to do is pick it up and read it. :idea:Of course. It tells me all speakers should be in phase. That's about it. It also tells me how to determine phase using 1.5v DC and yet another member tells me that's as useless as tits on a boar.

Now a site administrator is telling me a site moderator/treasurer is feeding me B.S.

And you wonder why I seem confused? :blink:

Y'all fight it out amongst yourselves.

boputnam

02-10-2009, 11:04 PM

...does this take into consideration the JBL trait of positive voltage on the black terminal giving forward cone motion on some drivers? Or do you just hook all positives to red and go on down the road? In other words, is it color of terminal or polarity of wire that determines "in phase". This is an astonishingly good question. What determines "in phase" is the physical motion of the transducers - typically of greatest concern is those in the same band pass.

...let me repeat what I quoted already from the Ashly manual...Ah, but your quote (and your reading) stopped too soon. The very next paragraph, Ashly, in their earlier manual(s) versions makes note of the unique JBL convention (see attachment below). This caveat no longer appears in the current XR manual.

What we are trying to determine here, is what works best with the assemblage you have in your home.

...This will result in a larger than normal attenuation at the crossover point. To correct this and return the crossover point to the correct spec, reverse the polarity of the woofer. Forget about +V onto black gives a forward cone motion. Speaker manufacturers do this to give us a point of reference. AC is a totaly different animal. You need to think about the system as a whole.:)Perhaps the most sensible point here. However, it may be lost on many... Regardless, this also raises the question of what type of crossover is desireable, right? A L-R would be flat at the crossover point (assuming, of course phase is sorted out!), or maybe a bump with a Butterworth. Whatever works, right?

Now a site administrator is telling me a site moderator/treasurer is feeding me B.S. Nothing of the kind. Rob was first here, I believe, in encouraging you do some polarity tests through the network to know what is going on. Now that you know the polarity of your drivers you should be able to connect things. But man, you love the rhetoric, so go for it - incite a riot if it works for you. Better yet, slow down and do some research, some listening and then research more.

My point is/was, from your description if you prefer the sound as you have it wired, then good - and, it seems to me, you could be right. And remember - no-one is going to come to your home and arrest you for inverting, or not, your LF leg. This is all about knowing what was intended by the OEM and finding your preference. You've already left the OEM domain by virtue of those DIY cabinets with their particular driver compliment and using a DIY charge-coupled network. You are in "One Man Land".

But, I pointed out in post #123 above, JBL themselves, for this very crossover point, went from a -12dB (onboard 3145 fully passive) to the -18dB (outboard 5234A active) - clearly, these will not have the same response characteristic. But, -18dB is not so easy passive - and when the 5234A was conceived this would not be an option common to many buyers (thus the duality of the cabinet connections). But maybe JBL themsleves preferred steeper slopes...? :hmm:

FWIW, and to possibly blow your mind, my 4345's are NOT run with the LF leg inverted. I am using a Bryston 10B LR (-24dB slopes) with the OEM 3145 passive networks - and to make it simple, amp (+) to cabinet (+), all the way. It works for me. :wave:

.

Allanvh5150

02-10-2009, 11:18 PM

Hmm........I'm lost now. Is this a Bi amp setup?:blink:

boputnam

02-10-2009, 11:29 PM

'morning, Alan...

Yes. Using DIY passive's after the Ashly XR1001. Owner / operator is trying to determine how to connect the LF leg to the amp - normal or inverted.

I think that brings you up to date... :)

Allanvh5150

02-11-2009, 12:17 AM

OK. I skipped through the rest of the thread and found what I suppose is the pasive crossover that you are using. It the original JBL crossover, the inductor is switched out of circuit. This means that the top end is only +90 dgrees out of phase with the bottom end. With the full passive setup having the 2245 reversed keeps the phasing correct. In Bi-Amp mode the 2245 could be either or and it probably wouldn't make much difference. Let you ears be the judge. However, if the inductor is still in circuit I would keep the 2245 reversed. :blink:

hjames

02-11-2009, 03:55 AM

Robh3606

02-11-2009, 05:50 AM

Y'all fight it out amongst yourselves.

Don't think so, I won't waste another second of my time here after this post.

That's about it. It also tells me how to determine phase using 1.5v DC and yet another member tells me that's as useless as tits on a boar.

And you think this person knows more than the guys at Ashly who write the manual??

Now a site administrator is telling me a site moderator/treasurer is feeding me B.S.

No I am telling you technically the correct set-up. Bo is going by what you are hearing. Two different things. You should be going with what's in the manual and ignoring any advice you get that doesn't support it. You should also be reading the Rane Tech note I posted and try to educate yourself. There's lots of conflicting advice out there. Without basic knowledge you can't tell what's correct and what's not.

And from Bo

FWIW, and to possibly blow your mind, my 4345's are NOT run with the LF leg inverted. I am using a Bryston 10B LR (-24dB slopes) with the OEM 3145 passive networks - and to make it simple, amp (+) to cabinet (+), all the way. It works for me. :wave:

Technically the correct implementation of that crossover type. Just like the Ashly manual tells you as I did at post 89 and Heather as well in post 90.

Rob:)

BMWCCA

02-11-2009, 08:11 AM

This is an astonishingly good question. What determines "in phase" is the physical motion of the transducers - typically of greatest concern is those in the same band pass.

Ah, but your quote (and your reading) stopped too soon. The very next paragraph, Ashly, in their earlier manual(s) versions makes note of the unique JBL convention. Actually, no, I just got tired of copying it in its entirety more than once. It's earlier in the thread, as is my polarity test with a 1.5v battery which determined that matching wire and terminal color through the crossovers to the speaker terminal gives in-phase reaction. I'm not considering the JBL wiring diagram for the 3145 which shows inverted leads on the LF driver. I'm determining phase in relation to my speaker connectors from the amp output to the cone movement. Actual empirical evidence, as a basis for moving forward.

What we are trying to determine here, is what works best with the assemblage you have in your home.

But man, you love the rhetoric, so go for it - incite a riot if it works for you. Better yet, slow down and do some research, some listening and then research more.

My point is/was, from your description if you prefer the sound as you have it wired, then good - and, it seems to me, you could be right. And remember - no-one is going to come to your home and arrest you for inverting, or not, your LF leg. This is all about knowing what was intended by the OEM and finding your preference. You've already left the OEM domain by virtue of those DIY cabinets with their particular driver compliment and using a DIY charge-coupled network. You are in "One Man Land". Yes, I appreciate that, yet the advice has varied (not to oversimplify) from "just wire it correctly", to "just follow the Ashly maual", to "just run them out of phase". I've tried to do all the above, which of course introduces several conflicts! The rhetoric hasn't been mine. I'm trying to find out if there's one "correct" way. My apologies if it came out somehow different, and thanks for trying. If there is no "correct" way, then that is an answer. We haven't gotten to that point yet, though the conflicting opinions maybe should have made it clear to me that that is the case here. I have asked what the intention of OEM was, but that never got answered, AFAIK. I wouldn't mind starting there as a baseline. Please see the last sentence in this post.

FWIW, and to possibly blow your mind, my 4345's are NOT run with the LF leg inverted. I am using a Bryston 10B LR (-24dB slopes) with the OEM 3145 passive networks - and to make it simple, amp (+) to cabinet (+), all the way. It works for me. :wave:And I'm assuming you mean you know your 18" and 10" are in-phase, ignoring any internal "inverted" wiring. Of course the 3145 networks schematics DO show inverting the LF output compared to the HF wiring. What's obvious to me is a confusion in semantics between "polarity" and "phase". What I'm hearing is that following a schematic that shows inverted connections can, depending on slope, result in both drivers being in-phase. When I think "phase" I think of the cones both reacting the same way, regardless of polarity, wiring, schematic, or slope. That boils it down to simply is it preferred to run both cones in-phase, or not. And if that's dependent on personal choice in the absence of instrumented results, then so be it.

I may never grasp what you're trying to tell me, but thanks for trying, my brothers and sister! But, for grins, what did JBL do? I know they invert the leads to one section (it varies as to whether they invert LF or HF depending on which schematic you look at) at the ouput of the 3145, but are the two cone drivers ultimately running in-phase, or out, in stock passive single-amp form? :dont-know

subwoof

02-11-2009, 08:27 AM

The member who stated that inductors and capacitors lead / lag by 90 is only *partially* correct. The amount of shift is FREQUENCY DEPENDENT. In order to get the correct voltage drives a crossover designer will *deliberately* make the components NOT a "perfect 90 degrees" at the desired crossover point.

Once you deviate more than a few octaves ( there are TEN for the 4345 ) the shift is irrelevant. NOW it is important to make sure the actual transducer polarity is correct...OK ?

This is a major reason why it is sometimes so hard to "dial in" an outboard crossover OF ANY TYPE to match the factory original.

The JBL card electronic crossovers are 290 / 310 Hz ( did you ever wonder why the components are not the same value...) The same style offset is on the 4430 cards..:)

Note that you CANNOT do this with an electronic crossover that has the "one knob" Xf control ( IE: ashley ). BUT the ashley setting at 300hz, 24db/oct is a satisfactory application. Of course Ashley used to make 12, 18 AND 24Db slope crossovers. Why hasn't anybody commented on this??

The whole point of the passive crossover is to acoustically sum the output of the transducers ( NOTE: END OF OPERATING RANGE ) to give a predictable, reasonably flat output.

Whether a single *band* or driver is in phase or not is irrelevant. It is the COMBINATION.

YES using a battery is important to determine the electrical polarity of a cone - in fact I had a repair center remag a repaired 2240 OUT of phase and only the battery test showed their error!

YES it is important to make sure the transducers are wired to the factory specifications / print

YES it is important to actually READ what the factory said about bi-amplification since it's DESIGNER had a major say in it's composition.

YES it is important to know what ( IF ANY ) polarity reversals are in the electronic crossover / cableing / amplifier chain. VERY VERY few are inverted.

YES it is important to carefully document what you have, how it's wired and take notes on what changes you notice when "dialing in".

YES it is important to ignore the extremely one-sided postings and instructions that believe a single factor is the meaning of life and all else is crap. With the internet everyone is an "expert" and since it's in print ( or on line ) it must be right? Right?

Good luck wading thru all these threads. Most of the advice is worthwhile and correct but very limited in scope and hopelessly uncategorized...

...sigh...

Fred Sanford

02-11-2009, 09:57 AM

You didn't (confuse me) and you did say to check the manual, which I did. But we're going over old news now, so let me repeat what I quoted already from the Ashly manual:and:I'm set at "6" on the response control, as Fred originally suggested.

I really didn't ignore anyone's phase suggestions, there just seemed to be some disagreement as to what phase choice was "correct". Slope is mentioned as having a bearing on phase, but Ashly says it ain't so in their case. Even now it seems Rob's quotes on crossover performance suggest "All drivers are always wired the same (in phase)." But, we DON'T want them that way IN THIS CASE, right? Am I the only one confused? I'm going with Bo and Heather's suggestion to run the 18" out-of-phase with the 10", as determined by battery test from the amp output (through the CC networks). Anyone suggesting otherwise, please remember you're speaking to a child here: The first failure in communication is assuming any is taking place! Please explain such polarity statements in context with what we're trying to achieve here with respect to the 43XX 4-ways. And anyone wanting to do the battery test on a 43XX 4-way with stock passive networks wired with the LF leads inverted at the driver as per the schematic who can tell me if they ultimately are in-phase, or not, has my gratitude.

G'night! :)

Right- here's my point- I originally suggested "6" on the response control because I thought the Ashly was 12dB/octave. My understanding was that for an Ashly crossover (all outputs in phase) that was 12dB/octave (which it seems I was wrong) the correct starting point would be "-6dB" on the notch filter at the crossover point, and the 18" out of phase with the mid-bass (which, thanks to JBL history, should be verified and noted per driver with a battery). You'd also need to verify that the individual Crowns you're using don't flip phase.

For a 24dB/octave crossover that maintains phase, I don't know what is suggested for the notch filter setting, and I believe that the 18" should be wired in phase with the mid-bass.

As a starting point.

:blink:

je

Fred Sanford

02-11-2009, 10:09 AM

Just as an observation, I think that much of the confusion is based on the fact that there are a large number of actual and assumed places where phase can be/might be/should be changed in the path-

internal to the active crossover
slope of the crossover
phase between input & output of the amplifiers
phase between input & output of the passive x-over
relation between red speaker terminal and actual cone motion
Unless all are taken into account (or stated plainly as tested with this system's components) then answers that may be technically "correct" can appear to be contradictory. Unless all are stated in the typed answer, you can't know whether they were all taken into account.

Yeah. Good luck with that. :D

je

Allanvh5150

02-11-2009, 10:54 AM

Ian Mackenzie

02-11-2009, 12:29 PM

The replies should be read in consideration of:

Its perhaps worth noting everyone here who has had some working expererience with this system has done so in very different environments and in MANY cases they have resorted like Bo to using elaborate measuring equipent and equalisation to solve the apparent acoustic issues. Without the EQ in such environments one might imagine there would still be some tail chasing.

Because of the size of these things, room space, Waf and kids, where they end up being placed will result in sound quality that can defy otherwise correct advice.

The other thing here is you have bought a pre owned non factory system and we cannot be sure of exactly what its doing correctly. Ask the novice who build the crossovers!

Finally, what you are think you are hearing and telling the readers and what might be happening can be two very different things. We know this from past experience.

But these things still seem to put a smile on people's faces in spite of all this.

I would suggest its therefore a little too early to be expecting an acceptable end result.

BMWCCA

02-11-2009, 01:04 PM

Ask the novice who build the crossovers!Oh here we go again! ;) Is this just a clever distraction ploy to avoid the straightforward question of how these were set up in their ex-factory form? I thought it a rather simple, innocent, non-accusatory question. Apparently it's also a question no one can answer. Or I'm just not asking it right. ;)

Finally, what you are think you are hearing and telling the readers and what might be happening can be two very different things. We know this from past experience.

But these things still seem to put a smile on people's faces in spite of all this.

I would suggest its therefore a little too early to be expecting an acceptable end result.I already have an acceptable result. I love the way they sound. I didn't start the phase controversy, unless it was by asking how they came phased from JBL in their original form on factory-built 4345s. I'm looking for an objective answer. If that's not a question that can be answered simply, I'll apologize. Again. :D

If you asked me what the correct firing order was on a 4-cylinder BMW, I'd be able to tell you: 1-3-4-2. If you hook up the plug wires in any other order, the engine won't run as well. Obviously speakers are far more complicated.

http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/mfl0357l.jpg http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/shr1021l.jpg

Mr. Widget

02-11-2009, 01:39 PM

Is this just a clever distraction ploy to avoid the straightforward question of how these were set up in their ex-factory form? I thought it a rather simple, innocent, non-accusatory question. Apparently it's also a question no one can answer. Or I'm just not asking it right. ;)Maybe you aren't listening? Here is a post which clearly answers your question.

The wiring of schematic of the original in the stock system inverted the phase of the mid, horn and slot after the L-pads.

Bi amp function removes the LF low pass and Mid high pass filters only.
Thus in biamp mode with positive to Red the polarity to the mid, horn and slot will still be reversed as far as what the drivers see.

Widget

BMWCCA

02-11-2009, 04:02 PM

Maybe you aren't listening? Here is a post which clearly answers your question.Thank you. I was and am "listening". Just as I was listening when others proposed that the polarity was reversed after the L-pads because the phasing of the LF reversed itself within the passive crossover circuitry. I'm not an EE and I got conflicting opinions. As Bo said, I may actually have it set right. Dumb luck.

Regardless, I'm enjoying it the way it is. And I will assume that to have the two cones out of phase is the way it's supposed to work, and not just to compensate for a polarity reversal in the LF network circuit (which I don't have).

To quote "Emily Litella"; Never mind! ;)

Thanks for accepting my stupidity, and for helping in spite of it. :D

“This is the final test of a gentleman: his respect for those who can be of no possible service to him” -William Lyon Phelps
http://www.pueblo.gsa.gov/gifs/aboutus/speakers.gif
"You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.” -Friedrich Nietzsche

hjames

02-11-2009, 04:13 PM

Thank you. I was and am "listening". Just as I was listening when others proposed that the polarity was reversed after the L-pads because the phasing of the LF reversed itself within the passive crossover circuitry. I'm not an EE and I got conflicting opinions. As Bo said, I may actually have it set right. Dumb luck.

Dang man, haven't you had enough grief over those things yet - I'd have figured they'd be up for sale by now!
When you do, at least let me have first crack at them ... ;)

I guess you been at work some since your birthday and they haven't had enough time to whack you out completely yet. :applaud:

Sounds like you are having fun and making some headway at least ...
just wait til you move them to another room and get to start all over again! :blink:

BMWCCA

02-11-2009, 04:22 PM

Dang man, haven't you had enough grief over those things yet - I'd have figured they'd be up for sale by now!
When you do, at least let me have first crack at them ... ;) I think you're supposed to keep them a year, delete all the posts, and then sell them without comment. ;)

Right now I just wish I had more time to listen to them. I'm replying to you while still at work. :banghead:

I've had the 4345's in the house for four days and during that time this thread has expanded by over 80 posts. I'm going back to lurking so I can listen to some music.

Allanvh5150

02-11-2009, 05:50 PM

So what do they sound like?:D

BMWCCA

02-11-2009, 07:12 PM

So what do they sound like?:DThey sound like . . . music. :thmbsup:

Great big room-filling sound! Incredibly deep bass, highs beyond what my ears can hear these days, and a sweet sound that doesn't get harsh no matter how loud I let them play. And they like playing loud. :applaud:

JeffW

02-11-2009, 07:28 PM

...but are they in phase? <d/r>

Ian Mackenzie

02-11-2009, 07:42 PM

This looked like as good a place as any to ask this question:

My "new" 4345s have the custom CC networks. I have an Ashly XR-1001 on the way. The photo shows it to be the new "graphite" version with rear-mounted power switch and therefore I presume the auto-balanced XLR jacks.

What I'm hoping to use are two Crown amps: PS-400, and PS-200. I also have two Crown PS-MOD/X adapters to allow XLR input to the amps. I'm a bit of an electronics idiot and don't understand the difference between the PS-MOD/X and the PS-MOD/A. The manual says both allow balanced input but the X is passive using a transformer while the A uses "active circuitry". Which is preferred? What are the advantages of either over the other? I have been offered a pair of PS-MOD/A's as well, I just can't tell if I need them.

In general, is there an advantage to using balanced inputs if my runs between the Ashly and the Crowns is only a couple of feet? I won't have balanced output from the pre-amp anyway so I'll be either using the 1/4 TRS Ashly inputs or an adapter to the XLR. What is required to connect to the Ashly properly from a pre-amp with RCA jacks?

This is most likely the first of many questions I'll have, but it's critical to me just to get started on the right foot. Thanks in advance for your replies.

Aw, shucks, Dorothy! :o:

I should retire - my work is done! However, your work is just beginning. The 4345 is not user friendly. It's performance benefits from careful set-up and knowledgeable system tuning. These are not trivail tasks, and your ability to execute them will improve with every iteration you try. Do keep trying and keep challenging yourself. And that, one day, will almsot certainly lead you to some TAD TD-2002's. :) You will never reach the limit, me knows...

Yeah, pretty much...

Bo was perhaps too forthcoming.:banghead:

I agree this thread has out grown its usefulness.

Perhap we should limit such enquiring threads to one issue or one question to keep it short and simple.

As they say no good deed goes unpunished.....LOL

Mr. Widget

02-11-2009, 08:04 PM

...but are they in phase? <d/r>Yes, they have phase. :p

Silly question... he answered it:

They sound like . . . music. :thmbsup:

Widget

JBLRaiser

02-11-2009, 08:11 PM

41 years. One thing he tells his employees. You can rarely fix it over the phone.;)

boputnam

02-11-2009, 08:13 PM

You can rarely fix it over the phone.;)Genius!

We need to add that to a Forum Advisory section... :applaud:

Fred Sanford

02-12-2009, 06:17 AM

My friend has been in the electronics business for.....
41 years. One thing he tells his employees. You can rarely fix it over the phone.;)

Genius!

We need to add that to a Forum Advisory section... :applaud:

I've been in the AV business for 25 years, and one thing I'll tell you - it's much easier to fix it over the phone than it is over a forum.

Much.

Real-time feedback, plus the ability to ascertain the knowledge & comprehension levels of the end user are quite helpful. However, phone-fixes are often only possible for me if the person at the other end becomes my eyes/ears/hands, and otherwise says nothing besides answering my questions directly.

je :yes:

JBLRaiser

02-12-2009, 06:49 AM

BMWCCA

02-12-2009, 06:50 AM

I've been in the AV business for 25 years, and one thing I'll tell you - it's much easier to fix it over the phone than it is over a forum.

Much. :yes:If I'd taken each piece of advice offered in this thread since post #89 in the order it was offered, I'd still be swapping polarity at the LF today. The number of conflicting opinions, opinions posted as fact, incomplete reading of the facts involved, contradictory solutions from even the same poster, references to manuals for products not even being used, demeaning references to literacy or lack thereof, all the Sturm und Drang over the genesis of the CC crossovers and the providence of their design, plus the discrediting of experts by other experts here leave a novice like me with no choice but to ignore everything, put the computer to sleep, and play music. :D

Maybe you long-suffering forum stalwarts know whose advice to take and whose to ignore, but the rest of us don't. A simple question about tracing the polarity through the network devolved into tale-chasing. That's partially due to my inexperience, my natural tendency to trust the expertise of others in an area outside my field of knowledge, and my not being able to separate the wheat from the chaff. What seemed a simple question to me apparently had either no answer, several answers, or none that made any difference. I'm just happy to have the music. ;)

To all of you, thanks again for your help. :applaud:

Mr. Widget

02-12-2009, 09:43 AM

I've been in the AV business for 25 years, and one thing I'll tell you - it's much easier to fix it over the phone than it is over a forum.

Much.

Real-time feedback, plus the ability to ascertain the knowledge & comprehension levels of the end user are quite helpful. However, phone-fixes are often only possible for me if the person at the other end becomes my eyes/ears/hands, and otherwise says nothing besides answering my questions directly.

je :yes:Very well put.

Fortunately most of the time the poster seems to get it with less drama, but every so often we enter into a tail spin of good advice sprinkled with a red herring or two and it all goes to shit.

I don't know why a simple post like Rob's post 89 where he brought up the fact that a 24dB network like the Ashly does not invert phase and the stock 12dB network does caused so much confusion, a confusion that apparently still lingers in the mind of BMWCCA, but I guess without that phone call we are stuck with these outcomes occasionally.

At least at this point it would seem the speakers are doing what they are supposed to do... make music! :D

Widget

BMWCCA

02-12-2009, 12:06 PM

I don't know why a simple post like Rob's post 89 where he brought up the fact that a 24dB network like the Ashly does not invert phase and the stock 12dB network does caused so much confusion, a confusion that apparently still lingers in the mind of BMWCCA, but I guess without that phone call we are stuck with these outcomes occasionally.Which post #89 are you reading? :blink:

What is the phase on the woofer?? When I run a 24db network on the 4344 I have to reverse the phase. The original is a 12db network with a 24dB L/R they should be in phase.If you think that instruction is clear, you must be a manual editor—and the last sentence cries out for punctuation to make any sense at all! But the confusion starts with, "I have to reverse the phase." From what? According to the original 3145 schematic, the HF and LF are already reversed in polarity relative to each other, supposedly to keep them in-phase. So, what: reverse the reverse? Easy for you to say. In normal English it might be argued that you don't "reverse" phase; you're either in-phase, or out-of-phase". You reverse "polarity" to effect either result in phase status. I respectully suggest you're inferring information that wasn't given—or given in a syntax that defies normal understanding. ;)

"In-phase" just might occur with polarity reversed. "Reverse the phase" in English is not the same as "reverse the polarity". One phrase implies the result of two speakers not in-phase, the other simply implies changing wires to reverse polarity without regard to ultimate phase.

Here's what I think the well-meaning here were actually trying to tell me—in my own words:
The original 3245 network supplied with the 4345 uses a 12dB slope on the LF section which reverses polarity within its circuitry, so it is necessary (as shown in the schematic) to reverse the polarity (red wire to black terminal and black wire to red terminal) on the 2245H to keep the drivers in-phase during operation.

When bi-amping using a 24dB-slope active crossover, such as an Ashly XR1001, and by-passing any LF internal network, polarity is not reversed within the circuitry so retaining conventional wiring polarity (red to red, black to black) should result in both drivers being in-phase during operation. But then we get an agreement to the contrary with Bo and Heather who say it ultimately may be a matter of personal preference and what the listener hears:
I'm running my 15s reversed - tho I had mistakenly run then in phase before.
Out of phase you'll get a sharper cutoff between the woofer and the 10 inch
Yes, Heather - be careful of this. You may be right because of the 4th Order slope of the XR1001, but I need to review the schematics (and I'm bushed from coming off a small tour...). Have you found them more to your liking, this way?

Last night mid the 1st set, we inverted the subs on a sizeable system in Tahoe - the systems guys (nameless here) insisted that in over 1,000 shows no-one had ever requested this. It immediately smoothed the response curve and gave ME control over the VLF - I was able to flatten the GEQ, removing some nasty notches they had been accustomed to "needing". Clearly, there was some unintended additive/doubling in the acoustic domain with being electrically in-phase (relates to the phenomenon of "physical offset"). The LF loading at stage was abruptly far, far less - the bassist was able to hear better and so turned down his rig. And, I could ease the whole system gain down because things became far more intelligible. :)

I love you all dearly, but if you don't think the advice given here by some isn't contradictory to that of others (or written in such fashion as to defy comprehension), then we don't speak the same language. An observation that is becoming clearer with each sanctimonious post. :D

"The problem with communication ... is the illusion that it has been accomplished." –George Bernard Shaw

hjames

02-12-2009, 12:17 PM

I love you all dearly, but if you don't think the advice given here by some isn't contradictory to that of others (or written in such fashion as to defy comprehension), then we don't speak the same language.
:blink:
Do you have any idea how much your wife has been paying us to torment you like this ... Your daughters are in on it too!
... they want you to stop playing with these big crazy boxes,
grow up, and buy some nice bozo speakers for the house ...

:applaud:

Fred Sanford

02-12-2009, 12:19 PM

I love you all dearly, but if you don't think the advice given here by some isn't contradictory to that of others (or written in such fashion as to defy comprehension), then we don't speak the same language. An observation that is becoming clearer with each sanctimonious post. :D

This goes back to my post #150:

Just as an observation, I think that much of the confusion is based on the fact that there are a large number of actual and assumed places where phase can be/might be/should be changed in the path-

internal to the active crossover
slope of the crossover
phase between input & output of the amplifiers
phase between input & output of the passive x-over
relation between red speaker terminal and actual cone motion
Unless all are taken into account (or stated plainly as tested with this system's components) then answers that may be technically "correct" can appear to be contradictory. Unless all are stated in the typed answer, you can't know whether they were all taken into account.

Yeah. Good luck with that. :D

je

...and #165:

I've been in the AV business for 25 years, and one thing I'll tell you - it's much easier to fix it over the phone than it is over a forum.

Much.

Real-time feedback, plus the ability to ascertain the knowledge & comprehension levels of the end user are quite helpful. However, phone-fixes are often only possible for me if the person at the other end becomes my eyes/ears/hands, and otherwise says nothing besides answering my questions directly.

je :yes:

As much as you might want clear, concise answers, they're not going to be clear without context, and they're not going to be concise without the context expressly stated. Some folks here weren't familiar with the particular speakers, or the crossover, or your knowledge level. Some folks have the knowledge & skills, but spotty reading comprehension/retention. Some have it all together, but followed a post that was vague, so lost clarity just by its position in line.

My advice (having dealt with you in person and on the phone) is to lower your expectations of what a forum environment can give you here - expect to learn & find resources, but maybe be careful not to expect answers unless they're from a manual. Just my opinion.

ANYBODY would get confused trying to follow, especially with the phase/polarity details you laid out. Enjoy the tunes. :thmbsup:

je

Mr. Widget

02-12-2009, 12:33 PM

Which post #89 are you reading? :blink:
If you think that instruction is clear, you must be a manual editor—and the last sentence cries out for punctuation to make any sense at all! But the confusion starts with, "I have to reverse the phase." From what?From the factory specified orientation!

Rob asked me to re-read posts 89-95. I agree with you that there is some confusing text there, but the message is consistant. So here it is, for what I hope is the very last time:

If you use a 4th order network (and currently you are) wire the 2245 with the same polarity as the HF portion of the system.

Widget

BMWCCA

02-12-2009, 01:37 PM

Rob asked me to re-read posts 89-95. I agree with you that there is some confusing text there, but the message is consistant. So here it is, for what I hope is the very last time:
If you use a 4th order network (and currently you are) wire the 2245 with the same polarity as the HF portion of the system.Thank you.

And for your perseverance, as well. :)

That's where I had them in the first place! ;)

Ian Mackenzie

02-12-2009, 01:42 PM

I think the problem is perhaps information overload and then the digestion of that cognitively or lack of it arrive some valid conclusions.

If the total idiot only did exactly as he was told under direct instruction steps 1- 10 like in a manual we probably would not be wasting time over who said what.

But because this is not a simple subject and must be leant and understood before proceeding there are going to be pauses, questions and doubts before forming conclusions and they may not be valid conclusions.

The interpration and understanding of this volume of information is not an overnight event where the receiver is left to his own intuition and will only lead to confusion.

Intuition is a dangerous thing where the reciever does not really understand the information. This is the problem.

Hence we are seeing the rhetorical feedback

Its a bit like compressing a 5 year learning journey for some into a few days with the expectation that you think you will make sense out of it which of course is absurd.

The type of discussion happening now is indicative of that.

As I said earlier the real deal with these things is as much about growing to know them as it is listening to them and the more you get to know them the more useful you will find the posts.

Give it time and it will all make sense.

BMWCCA

02-12-2009, 02:28 PM

If the total idiot only did exactly as he was told under direct instruction steps 1- 10 like in a manual we probably would not be wasting time over who said what.This idiot is writing that manual right now. In fact I think I did it six-posts back. In around one-hundred words in two paragraphs.

Somehow this thread took over one-hundred posts and many still can't agree! :D

"A mind is a terrible thing . . . " :hyp:

BMWCCA

02-12-2009, 04:17 PM

Inspired by Fred Sanford's "Soundcheck" compilation used in the infamous 4333/L7 "Shootout", I dug out the "Double Vision" CD of Bob James and David Sanborn.

Horns on horns, again.

I'm not sure how it could get much better than this, but a year from now I'll let you know. :D

Robh3606

02-13-2009, 08:41 AM

Hello Ian

Since my post about driver phase seems to have started this whole thing why don't we just end it and move on. I can't see letting this get anymore destructive than it already has become. All of the people trying to help did so in the spirit of helping a forum member get the most of his system.

It got frustrating and this showed in some posts. The bottom line is we now have a concensus that there is a correct way to phase these systems when biamping them. That really was the point of my original post.

As far as the the confusion caused by my posts wording, well it certainly was not written with malicious intent. It was also clarified a couple of posts later at post 95 when it was obviuous there was some confusion.

No it depends on the crossovers type used and the slopes 12db vs 24db. For example I can use either an M552 or my DX-1 to biamp my 4344's. The M552 is 24db L/R and the DX-1 is 12dB. When I hook up the DX-1 the woofer phase is per the original design because it uses 12db slopes like the passive network. When I use the M552 I must reverse the woofer phase for it to sum properly because it uses the 24Db slopes.

To keep it simple general rule of thump is 12db reverse polarity on one driver, 18db can end up either way and 24db in phase.

Looking at a standard cabinet you would simply reverse the phase on the woofer to use the Ashley or any other crossover using the 24db filters.

To see whats what take a 1.5 volt battery and see which direction the 2122 goes in. The series caps in the crossover will protect compresion driver and ring radiator from the DC. All you need to do is verify the woofer using the same method and connect them so they both go in the same direction. Once you do that you know the polarties are correct.

Considering that the schematic was posted by me back at post 32 I didn't think that the original post was that hard to follow looking at the schematic and reading the post. So much for good intentions.

Rob:)

BMWCCA

02-13-2009, 10:11 AM

Since my post about driver phase seems to have started this whole thing why don't we just end it and move on. I can't see letting this get anymore destructive than it already has become. All of the people trying to help did so in the spirit of helping a forum member get the most of his system. Thanks, and that's how I took it. I did the battery test and put the LF and MF in-phase based on the help here and from PMs. There remains the suggestion that there could be a benefit to running out-of-phase, though that is left to personal preference and listening. Nothing more really needs to be said on that topic since I know now that JBL reversed polarity by design to end up with the cones in-phase.

The phase issue is where we unfortunately began to fall apart, shortly after this post. (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=240075&postcount=89) Anyone looking for similar assistance from this thread in the future should be aware of the pitfalls I discovered upon reflection: Part of the impediment to my comprehension came from the fact that nothing in the Ashly manual tells you that the XR1001 uses a 24dB slope while much of the advice discussed phase issues related to 12dB versus 24dB slopes in the abstract. If you download the current XR-1001 manual from Ashly there is not even a mention of polarity remaining linear through the crossover, much less slope. Only if you dig down to the "old" Ashly web site and download the manual for the discontinued (gray-face) XR1001 do you see the note that "The outputs of all Ashly crossovers are in phase with the input." But Ashly obfuscates that with statements like this from the older version (which doesn't appear in the current manual):
NOTE: The Response control is not a “slope” control. A 12dB/octave crossover will always have a slope of 12dB/octave regardless of the setting of this control. Likewise, a 24dB/octave crossover will always have a slope of 24dB/octave.and yet they still don't tell you in their specs that the Ashly uses a 24dB slope!! However, IF you have the older unit, it's right there on the front panel (but nowhere else):
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c378/BMWCCA1/XR1001.jpg

If you have the new version, it's apparently a secret!:
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c378/BMWCCA1/XR-1001.jpg

So, upon reflection, we had a perfect storm of assumptions, different knowledge levels, and lack of information—or two versions of the same information, neither with enough of what was necessary for me to understand all the references or learn anything from them.

No hard feelings on my part, and if there remain any members offended by what I wrote—for whatever reason—you have my sincere apology. For anyone who cares at this point, the 4345's sound fantastic, and the LF and MF cones are currently running "out-of-phase". ;)

boputnam

02-13-2009, 10:44 AM

...nothing in the Ashly manual tells you that the XR1001 uses a 24dB slope...Now that is really weird.

The do mention it on the website - first bullet point in that smallest print! - but nothing nowhere in the manual. The spec (http://www.ashly.com/Resources/Documents/Spec%20Sheet/xr-series.pdf) sheet has it. All-in-all, weird.

"Why didn't you say so! That, is a horse of a different color!" (Wizard of Oz)

I'll send 'em an email...

BMWCCA

02-13-2009, 03:15 PM

At some point later in the year as mentioned in another thread biamping the 4345 will be looked at.

But no matter what you do this system seems to work in spite of itself and has the greatest potential for stellar performance in the right hands.Thanks for the additional information. ;)

I have to admit not only is it more than I ever asked for, it is also likely more than I am able to absorb. But thanks anyway.

I have no idea what your bi-amping reference refers to. The whole point of this thread is that I am bi-amping—right now. Otherwise I'd have no need for the active crossover. If you plan on going over all of this again in a year, let me know about it after you've completed the discussion. :D It should be quite obvious I have nothing to contribute to such a conversation! :blink: But thanks for trying.

speakerdave

02-13-2009, 05:25 PM

Don't forget to check whether either one of the amp channels you are using on a speaker is phase inverting.

subwoof

02-13-2009, 09:57 PM

Ok - I will call you on this one.

How about an actual LIST of amplifiers / models that invert the signal from input to output.

I know of only ONE that does as an *exception* to the standard and it has a specific topology reason for doing so.

Forget the tweako tube amps and anything before 1960.

go

Mr. Widget

02-14-2009, 02:02 AM

Forget the tweako tube amps and anything before 1960.
Why?

That is what I had been using... and the SETs did invert phase.

I agree that most pedestrian amps do not invert phase, but you can run into those that do.

Widget

speakerdave

02-14-2009, 10:49 AM

A forum favorite for bass splits, all the JBL/UREI 62xx amps connected with xlrs, unless special cables are made up:

subwoof

02-14-2009, 11:53 AM

I was specifically referring to amplifiers that invert which are rare..

The JBL's are not inverting. The stated positive input terminal ( pin 3 in this case ) will cause a positive output swing on the red binding post.

Same for crowns except they use pin 2.

BOTH use the tip on a TRS as positive....confusing nicht var?

Why this stupid industry keeps changing the so-called "hot" pin is beyond me. And JBL's use of an XLR for an unbalanced *output* on the 5235 is another joke. I am installing one in a few hours and I have to make up special cables...grrr...

How you wire / adapt the balanced input connections is specific to your other gear and system.

**HOWEVER** if you went and grabbed a QSC MX1500 amplifier, and plugged a 1/4 TS or TRS plug into it's input that will cause a *negative* output swing.

And that is the only manufacturer I know of ( pro ) that does this ( maybe the newer lines don't ?? ) and it's because of their use of a grounded can ( collector ) output device heatsink. Of course that means that ALL the output audio has to pass through the same large electrolytics that filter the raw DC.

Clear as mud...

:cheers:

Allanvh5150

02-14-2009, 12:33 PM

Ian Mackenzie

02-14-2009, 01:31 PM

I had this problem 25 years ago using a Quad 405 and a Phase Linear 700B

So I ran one high channel with the Quad and the other high channel with the 700B.

The out of phase stereo image quickly told us the Quad was inverting.

This is a simple way of determining phase continuity of the entire signal path without having to scew around.

subwoof

02-14-2009, 02:51 PM

Some years ago a clever person made up a jacket pin that had a rotating arrow that would point to the numbers 1, 2 or 3 and it was labeled what pin is XLR hot today.

I think it was at an early 80's NAMM show and I wish I had a picture of one..

sub

Chas

02-14-2009, 03:16 PM

I just wish that folks would agree that it is polarity that is opposite, not phase. Both pin 2 and/or pin 3 are of the same phase, but opposite polarity referenced to pin 1. :)

speakerdave

02-14-2009, 03:29 PM

I just wish that folks . . . .

Not gonna happen. The two words are used with multiple, overlapping referent groups. Context often helps distinguish what is meant, but not always, as has been adequately demonstrated in this thread. The best thing is to try and be as clear and specific as possible, even though it might seem like it takes a lot of extra words sometimes.

Woody Banks

02-15-2009, 08:29 AM

Work! This is what we like to call "Hell Week" each month.

This is one project I don't want to leave half-way done. And I also hadn't considered the interaction between the virgin grilles and our two cats! They've learned no to bother the C37s but that's some tough grille cloth. These get only one shot at being perfect until a casual claw gets too close. Rabbit wire? :D
(not my hand!)
http://www.unexco.com/hwrcloth.jpg

Sigh! :(

Here is a solution to the cat problem. It's fully adjustable too!:D

BMWCCA

02-15-2009, 09:40 AM

Here is a solution to the cat problem. It's fully adjustable too!:DIt looks like the handle is out of phase.

:D

Woody Banks

02-15-2009, 10:53 AM

It looks like the handle is out of phase.

:D

Yea, it was probably built by a "novice" :applaud:

BMWCCA

02-16-2009, 07:58 PM

So Beemer --

How does it sound??Great! I'm enjoying listening to lots of jazz, and blues, and horn music I'd put away years ago.

I even managed to get the hum out of the system. Received the Carvin sequencer/conditioner today, damaged by UPS. Amazing how you can drop a 13-lb. 1-rack-unit item and bend the thick aluminum faceplate at a 45º at the rack-mount holes without even breaking the box. Granted, on-line there are more than a few complaints about Carvin's packaging on this unit. I tried it out anyway and the sequencer works well but it still didn't kill all the hum from my ancient home wiring—still worth if for the sequencer feature. Carvin, to their credit, is giving me full credit and then sending me a new one at the current sale price ($10 less off their web site than what I paid from their Ebay store as of today) and not charging me shipping for my trouble.

So while I was messing around, I lifted the ground from the D150A-II which for some reason made it quiet. The DC300A-II is still quiet. Must have something to do with operating the amps in the same place though I was careful to run input cables separate from power. :dont-know Works fine now for whatever reason.

Swapped the polarity at the LF amp back to "in-phase", again, but didn't like it as much and put it back to "out-of-phase". I'll leave the reasons to anyone who'd like to mediate the inquest.

Ian Mackenzie

02-16-2009, 09:54 PM

Be very careful about lifting grounds from equipment.

The consequences can be fatal.

Mike Caldwell

02-17-2009, 07:24 AM

A power sequencer and for that matter your average power conditioner will not fix a hum problem associated with the power wiring. In some cases an isolation transformer may help. Get one of the plug in outlet testers that have the three lights on it to test the wiring and grounding of your outlets, most hardware stores have them. Like Ian said lifting the ground pin on a piece of equipment can be dangerous.

subwoof

02-17-2009, 08:27 AM

If all of your amplifiers are bolted to a common metal rack rail then only ONE should be connected to the AC ground ( via the chassis ). Otherwise you have a multiple pathway scenario, IE loop. This type of loop is VERY short and rarely causes a hum.

In cases where many many feet are involved ( or different outlets ) the hum can actually be greater than the audio level..!

Most crown amplifiers use a 2.7 ohm 1/2 watt resistor to connect the signal ground to the chassis ( some like the PSA2 have a lift strap or switch ). On the older amps it might be hard to find and you should see if it's not damaged or burnt. A common hum issue is the loss of insulation on the input 1/4 jack when it's replaced or serviced.

As mentioned, lifting ALL the grounds can be dangerous *if* there are faults and other mistakes made in the AC delivery system but that is pretty uncommon since those would of reared their ugly head before now.

And don't forget that the shield on your cable TV is grounded MANY feet away from the stereo and almost always causes some noise. A video isolator is a good idea here.

sub

BMWCCA

02-17-2009, 09:40 AM

Thanks for all the warnings and admonishment. These days even peanut butter can kill: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/17/opinion/17tue1.html
I'll look into the Crown internal issues when I get the chance. Thanks to Subwoof for that and for his help with an LED issue on a PS-series amp, too. It's all on the to-do list. :D

The house is over sixty-years old. One "new" breaker panel was installed over 25-years ago, two other panels still have screw-in glass fuses and I have no reason to believe the wiring everywhere isn't original and, of course, grounded outlets are few and far between. We've had all sort of problems with blowing up telephone equipment from lightning strikes until they checked and the ground rod wasn't grounding so they grounded the phone NID to the electrical service. No more lightning problems but using a computer with a modem doesn't work so well. Thanks to wi-fi that's no longer an issue. But we're in the country, on a well and a septic system. No grounding to water lines works since plastic pipe is used from the house to the bladder tank, and from the well pump to the tank. We're lucky to have rural electricity at all, much less the cable internet access that makes all this communing with you all so much fun! The price we pay for being able to see the Milky Way in the night sky.

A hum was not an issue with one amp, but is with two. I suppose that may have as much to do with both amps sharing the same source, and thus ground, even if it's through an active crossover, as it does with house wiring. Most likely the preamp isn't really grounded though it goes to a three-prong outlet. Using a three-prong adapter on the one amp at the back of the pre-amp power service seemed to have solved the issue at least to a reasonable level. The TV has always hummed. We returned the first two but they wouldn't hum at the store. That was years ago. It's below normal listening level but probably the source of the insanity in the family anyhow. ;) I'm sure that's the house wiring but, for the time being until we replace the house, that's how it will be. I suppose I could ground it to the underground heating-oil tank line, but . . .

I realize none of this is optimum—or even tolerable—for many of you but our room size isn't optimal for the 4345s, either. I don't need a room-mode program to tell me that! Life is full of compromises.

Enjoy your music. I'm enjoying mine. :applaud:

boputnam

02-17-2009, 09:48 AM

... I lifted the ground from the D150A-II which for some reason made it quiet...:scold:

Be very careful about lifting grounds from equipment.

The consequences can be fatal.:yes:

...lifting the ground pin on a piece of equipment can be dangerous.

It is not surprising that with your now increasingly complicated signal path (more devices involved) you have developed a ground loop - especially not surprising since you have those funky XLR adaptors into the Crowns. So, now another chore...

You should not float AC ground - there is no reason to. It is removing the symptom but not the problem - let's find the problem.

Best to start at the speakers and work backwards. With only the amps plugged in to the speakers (nothing input to the amps) see if you get that hum. No hum? Power down and add the pre-amp, and power up. No hum? Power down and add another upstream device, one-at-a-time. When you discover where from the hum comes, that device needs to be isolated from the rest of the signal path. You need to be sure it cannot find path to AC ground through the signal connections.

BMWCCA

02-17-2009, 10:58 AM

It is not surprising that with your now increasingly complicated signal path (more devices involved) you have developed a ground loop - especially not surprising since you have those funky XLR adaptors into the Crowns.I'm not using the PS-MOD-X adapters; just straight 2-wire 1/4" plugs from Ashly to Crowns, mono (tip and sleeve). Both amps have always run tip&sleeve inputs with no problem. I'll isolate the amps (next time I can have the living room to myself) and give a listen.

Thanks.

boputnam

02-17-2009, 11:22 AM

Both amps have always run tip&sleeve inputs with no problem. I'll isolate the amps (next time I can have the living room to myself) and give a listen.They may have been happy before, but now with that active crossover in the signal path they are interconnected - it's basically a "do over"... :)

BMWCCA

02-17-2009, 11:40 AM

They may have been happy before, but now with that active crossover in the signal path, it's basically a "do over"... :)
Yep, that's what I figured; one too many paths to ground. Nice and quiet now with just the small amp lifted. As I mentioned, much quieter than the TV! Old House syndrome. I isolated the TV cable from the hi-fi (had it coming from the cable to the VCR, to the TV, with VCR audio to the pre-amp), and it made no difference. The only real changes are the Ashly and both amps now operating. I can't see that hooking both pins 2 and 3 on an XLR out of the Ashly to the sleeve of the mono 1/4" phone plug (ground) has any advantage over just straight phone plugs but I suppose I could try it. Ashly says it's already grounded that same way with the 1/4" anyway.

I forgot to say I'm not using the PS-MOD-X xlr adapters because I'm not using the Crown PS amps. These are both D-series amps that have been in use in my house for years with no problem. There's a new house across the street. Maybe they'll just let me run an extension cord! ;)

Ian Mackenzie

02-17-2009, 12:22 PM

Where are all the amps and the crossover plogged into the mains ie power box or multi plug boards? Check that it actually grounds all the gear and that the house earth wiring is actually at ground potential.

Often its not.

If in fact it is an earth loop (and not induced hum or noise- buzz from everything stacked on top of each other) ) the earth loop is the result of the signal earth in one of the amps or crossover being connected to the chassis earth which of course is grounded to the mains.

Lifting the mains earth is not the answer and is illiegal.:(

The best way of dealing with this is to insert a thermister (CL60 from Digikey 10 ohms) between the signal earth and the chassis earth and leave the chassis earth grounded to the mains. (this should only be done by a qualified technician)

The normal resistance of the thermister (10 ohm) will reduce the mico current causing the earth loop to very low levels and the hum will disappear.(assumig there are no other causes)

If a fault develops the thermister resistance will drop to a fraction of an ohm.

Some gear already incorporate this or they float the signal earth with small value capacitor above ground or a strap or a switch.

I think the Ashly adds real voltage gain so you might also be able to improve the S/N by reducing its gain and cranking up the preamp.

Mr. Widget

02-17-2009, 12:44 PM

Since you have had a history of electrical issues, I suggest you buy an AC polarity checker (Let's not have another polarity thread) and confirm you are plugged into properly wired outlets.

http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/22-2000

Also, you need to have the same resistance in your ground return path for each piece of gear. The easiest way to do this if your circuit can handle the current is to use a high quality power strip... like one from Furman, don't waste money on Monster. Plug all of your gear into it. Doing this will put all of gear at the same potential and assuming all of your gear is working properly and your house is wired correctly should eliminate ground loop hum.

Widget

Chas

02-17-2009, 01:21 PM

These are really handy too. I use one in the engine room for all the line level stuff, like LF EQ and three crossovers.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=125-130

macaroonie

02-17-2009, 02:10 PM

Install a technical ground for your system. Copper spikes into the dirt local to your house commoned together and connected ONLY to you audio related gear. If you need more info PM Krunchy he has done it.

Mike Caldwell

02-17-2009, 03:47 PM

boputnam

02-17-2009, 04:53 PM

... like one from Furman...Yessir, or a couple of my favorites like ETA Systems (http://www.etasys.com/Main/Products/PowerDistribution.asp) (I have the PD11L myself - always find that "guest" Edison socket on the face, pretty handy...), or SurgeX (http://www.surgex.com/prod_rack.html), some of which accommodate Littlelites (http://www.littlite.com/products.php?category=8) on goosenecks...

Whichever way you go, make sure the fuse protection on the device at-least matches that for the house circuit - no sense having a 20 amp device with a 15 amp circuit.

JBLRaiser

02-17-2009, 05:32 PM

I think the hum is coming from forum overload.:banghead::blah::barf::blink:

Might be easier to move.:D

BMWCCA

02-17-2009, 05:43 PM

Widget supplied the picture of what I was talking about earlier. When I said lifting the ground pin I was referring to the ground on the AC power plug not the ground pin (#1) on an XLR connector.

If using the XLR connector only pin 3 would be connected to the sleeve along with pin 1. The same thing is happening though (or should be) when using the 1/4 inch mono jack.Y'all are walking all over yourselves again. Please consult the Ashly manual for wiring an unbalanced XLR to mono phone plug. I know what you meant about lifting ground. I have an outlet tester. According to it the only outlets in the house wired correctly (of the few with three prongs that I can test—the rest are two-prong) are ones I installed in the upstairs bedroom and bathroom and soldered the ground to the cold-water pipe twenty years ago when I had all the wallboard down in the bedroom. I'll just plug everything in there and run an extension cord downstairs! :D

boputnam

02-17-2009, 06:03 PM

I'll just plug everything in there and run an extension cord downstairs! :DInteresting idea, but that probably will not fix it. It's about how the devices are AC grounded.

Do the "back from the woofer" test we talked about above, and see if you can determine which device is producing the hum. Or, just leave the AC ground floating on that one amp and don't tell anyone! :shock:

Ian Mackenzie

02-18-2009, 06:33 AM

It would be useful to measure the ohms from the mains plug earth prong to the earth signal (input or output( of both amps, the crossover and other sources feeding the crossover.

One or more of them is a short between those two points.

Ultimately if you do not have proper chassis too earth grounding from chassis could well be floating above ground and no longer act as a shield from the signal electronics.

Therefore you have several issues to address.

It would be best to obtain a quote from a qualified electrician to install a dedicated mains outlet for your equipment.

You also need to have a technician test/modify all your equipment to reduce or eliminate the apparent earthing problems.

Otherwise frankly you are walking all over yourself or you may suffer a fatal accident which I should point out we are not responsible for.

This is really beyond the scope of the forums as you need on site qualified technical assistance.

Ian Mackenzie

02-18-2009, 06:42 AM

Interesting idea, but that probably will not fix it. It's about how the devices are AC grounded.

Do the "back from the woofer" test we talked about above, and see if you can determine which device is producing the hum. Or, just leave the AC ground floating on that one amp and don't tell anyone! :shock:

Until someone is dead:banghead: The statistics (deaths) from incorrectly wired appliances is quite alarming.

If there is a cause for an insurance claim a coroners report or something like that you will not be covered and you should consider your home insurance and life policy cancelled as soon as you disconnect chassis earth (they cover civil/legal liability but not deliberate acts of stupidity that cause harm)

BMWCCA

02-18-2009, 10:51 AM

Until someone is dead:banghead: The statistics (deaths) from incorrectly wired appliances is quite alarming.

If there is a cause for an insurance claim a coroners report or something like that you will not be covered and you should consider your home insurance and life policy cancelled as soon as you disconnect chassis earth (they cover civil/legal liability but not deliberate acts of stupidity that cause harm) :D

Once more: The house is over sixty-years-old. The living-room wiring is two-conductor copper wire insulated in rubber covered with braided cotton. It's old! The only outlets that test properly are those I replaced in the upstairs when I had all the wall-board off the studs, and the basement outlets which are wired with exposed BX cable (armored coiled metal). The downstairs is all plaster. Even though the outlet getting all the attention is almost directly above the basement and the breaker panel, the path through hardwood, plaster, and diagonal sub-floor is not a direct one and I don't really feel like ripping out wallpaper, plaster, and flooring to run a ground right now. I haven't seen a two-prong outlet in a store for decades. Most likely why this one is a grounding outlet with no ground wire.

I appreciate the concern for my safety, if that's what it is, but I'm reasonably certain my insurance company is aware of the situation since we've been in the house for 25 years and have had the same insurance company the whole time. The fire department is less than five miles away but I'll alert them to check whenever they ride by to see if we're still alive.

The nearest fire hydrant, however, is over two-miles away, which may have been a problem when our neighbor's house (Stefan Lessard, bass player for the Dave Mathews Band) burned down two years ago. The cause of the fire was never determined but I'm sure it must have been that new-fangled electrical service with the extra third wire since his house was only four-years-old at the time of the fire! ;)

http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/sha0402l.jpg

JeffW

02-18-2009, 11:04 AM

Can't you run a dedicated earth ground wire from just the power strip your gear is connected to? A small hole in the floor wouldn't be too intrusive, drive a ground rod and hook the wire to it.

I admit I'm not much of a home electrician, but I was pleasantly surprised that my old house (mostly) checked out with the diagnostics plug shown a few pages back. The outlet my computer is plugged into had no ground, so I ran an earth ground for it, and the computer is hooked to my stereo which has a grounded outlet and I get no hum through all those various components. So I count myself lucky there.

BMWCCA

02-18-2009, 12:21 PM

I was pleasantly surprised that my old house (mostly) checked out with the diagnostics plug shown a few pages back. The outlet my computer is plugged into had no ground, so I ran an earth ground for it, and the computer is hooked to my stereo which has a grounded outlet and I get no hum through all those various components. So I count myself lucky there.The outlet tester shows "good" as long as the pre-amp is plugged into the outlet. With nothing in the outlet it shows open ground, as expected with a two-wire service. I'll try slipping a ground wire through the cable hole and to the panel ground or the BX armor. That's where they grounded the phone line network-interface-device. I may have some well-pump wiring left from that last lightning strike. :D

I'm also planning Bo's component diagnostic from speakers-back. But work comes first, for some reason. :blink:

Mr. Widget

02-18-2009, 02:01 PM

The outlet tester shows "good" as long as the pre-amp is plugged into the outlet. With nothing in the outlet it shows open ground,...That tells the whole story. You have to fix it.

Widget

BMWCCA

02-18-2009, 02:17 PM

That tells the whole story. You have to fix it.Let me clarify: The outlet tester shows an open ground at that outlet with nothing plugged in. Shutting off the breaker and pulling the outlet confirms it has original 2-wire house wiring. But . . .

Chalk up ten points for Bo. Moving backward from the speakers showed a problem at the new phono plugs at the small Crown. Pulling them out got rig of the hum and simply wiggling them when plugged in got rid of it, too. No time today to go in and find out what's up but repositioning them got rid of all hum with no lifted grounds. Obviously, as Bo had continued to suggest, the house wiring wasn't the issue.

And—just so Ian can sleep tonight—no grounds have been lifted. Unless you consider the fact that that entire house circuit isn't grounded at all! :)

Thanks again.

The dynamics of Bill Evans' Quintessence seemed like a good test. Nice quiet passages. Certainly horns-on-horns is very cool but let us not discount the subtle presence of Ray Brown's acoustic bass over a 2245H even at low volume. The 4345s continue to sound wonderful. No hum, no shocks, no animals were harmed so far in this installation. And yes, I'll pull the Crown eventually to see what's up. I've got one spare D150A-II loaned out to a neighbor but there's at least one more PS-200 still sitting in its box somewhere. It's so easy to lose count!

Guess I'll stash this back in the electrical drawer!

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41X0X3MQ1AL._SL500_AA280_.jpg

Mr. Widget

02-18-2009, 07:01 PM

Let me clarify: The outlet tester shows an open ground at that outlet with nothing plugged in. Shutting off the breaker and pulling the outlet confirms it has original 2-wire house wiring.As expected...

You used the cheater to make the test right? If someone has replaced your original 2 wire outlet with a three wire outlet that is really wrong and very dangerous.

Obviously, as Bo had continued to suggest, the house wiring wasn't the issue. So you aren't going to ground your system??? You should fix it.

You should never plug a three prong device into a two wire circuit. I found out the hard way... no fire, no death, but it dropped me on my ass. The chassis of any of your three wired equipment could become lethal under certain circumstances.

Widget

BMWCCA

02-18-2009, 08:21 PM

As expected...

You used the cheater to make the test right? If someone has replaced your original 2 wire outlet with a three wire outlet that is really wrong and very dangerous.

So you aren't going to ground your system??? You should fix it.

You should never plug a three prong device into a two wire circuit. I found out the hard way... no fire, no death, but it dropped me on my ass. The chassis of any of your three wired equipment could become lethal under certain circumstances.Again, I appreciate the concern for my welfare, if that's what it is. I'm not taking quotes from contractors and I'm not doing electrical work without a license. Even if the only outlets that actually test out as proper are those I installed in the upstairs. When the time comes to punch a hole in the plaster and the floor, someone competent will be doing the work. Somehow we'll manage to get along as we are, and as we have for the past 25 years. While all the new houses around us burn down under suspicious circumstances!

The receptacle box is nailed to a wood stud and has two wires going to it. Even if I "grounded" the adapter to the face-plate screw there'd be an open ground. Last time I looked you couldn't even buy a two-conductor duplex outlet at our local Lowe's store. I realize the old system offers no protection against electrocution. I also realize if I drive my car fast I might get into an accident and kill myself. I prefer to drive fast cars fast.

In the words of Monty Python, "I ain't dead yet!" Amazing any of us ever lived to the ripe old age we have, isn't it?

I'm going back to enjoying the music now! Thanks again. :)