s1s-ex vs 4645c

[leif]

Anyone have any opinions about these two subs?
They both use the 2442H, and both enclosures are 225 liters.
The price here is Norway is 3 times as high on the s1s-ex as the 4645H.
Are they actually equal, exept for the finish? (and that one have 3 ports, while the other has 1)?

Leif

[spkrman57]

I would use the cheaper one myself

Regards, Ron

[Guido]

This was discussed elswhere.
The 2 units are the same (except design).
The one is professional and therefore has a reasonable price, the other is synthesis and therefore has a not reasonable price.

[4313B]

The S1S and 4645 are functionally equivalent - the ubiquitous 8 cubic foot volume tuned to 25 Hz first started way back when with the B460.

There are some S1S's and 4645's out there in the field with 30 Hz tuning frequencies instead of the 25 Hz tuning frequency. They usually use the older 2245H instead of the newer 2242H. At one point JBL was trying to keep 2245H's from blowing up left and right so they changed the tuning frequency upwards 5 Hz. When the monster 2242H became available they went back to the 25 Hz tuning frequency.

The S1S-EX uses the 2242H in a 6.5 cubic foot volume tuned to 25 Hz using three 4" flared tubes.

[Valentin]

3 times for the same performance

the 4645c is a bit larger in volume but it si slimmer

4645c H1010 x W67.4 x D45 = 225 liter (internal)
S1S ex H87.6 x W53.3 x D55.9 = 185 liter (internal)

it an easy decision here

but then why the smaller but deeper enclosure

for installation in rooms deeper has more problems than slimmer designs

4313b Is there some adjustment done too the volume too work better in small rooms?

4645c was intended for large spaces

there must be a way to the smaller but not so practical enclosure

[spkrman57]

I too am interested if a smaller size cabinet(but tuned higher) that could be used in a smaller room.

The only difference for me is not needing response below 35hz as my room nodes go crazy below that. So the tuning for my scenario would be higher than most folks need for a larger room!

Regards, Ron






4313b Is there some adjustment done too the volume too work better in small rooms?

4645c was intended for large spaces

there must be a way to the smaller but not so practical enclosure

[Mr. Widget]

I too am interested if a smaller size cabinet(but tuned higher) that could be used in a smaller room.

The only difference for me is not needing response below 35hz as my room nodes go crazy below that.So then why use a stadium sized subwoofer? I would stick with the LE14H-x or 2235H woofers.


Widget

[spkrman57]

Widget,

I have 2235's and they get the room nodes fired up way too soon and they tend to sound boomy.

My room is really small and I have thoughts of a pair of 2240 18" drivers to perform between approx 38hz to 100hz-200hz to fill in under a 3-way horn-loaded system. The higher efficiency of the 2240's also help the blend between the LF and midbass horns.

Regards, Ron

Regards, Ron

[Valentin]

it would be very interesting to me at least to know way the change in the enclosure size

it is hard too believe that it was only esthetically change

[4313B]

Because there is very little difference in the response of the driver between the 6.5 and 8.0 cubic foot volumes, something like a 1 dB difference.

Like I posted several times before, this driver doesn't like really big boxes. It's Vas is only ~ 10 cubic feet. That's roughly the same Vas as an old 12-inch 128H-1 folks...

[Valentin]

1db difference is not really palpable

maybe better transients, impulse response, or the way it couples to the room etc.

as you state the driver does not like really big boxes so the change makes sense so other characteristics must have been improved

both systems must be killer subs with very small differences as you state and the price difference is just too much.

you can get a new 4645c for Les than 1000 shipped to your home and a killer sub amp (crown dsi1000 bridged)for Les 1000. that includes an parametric 6 band eq and hi pass and low pass filters

this system will kick but in the 2000 usd category by far

one array1500 will cost you 4 grand it will go lower but i think please comment you wont bet better bass than a properly set of two 4645c

the only inconvenience is the size of the box

[4313B]

1db difference is not really palpable

maybe better transients, impulse response, or the way it couples to the room etc.

as you state the driver does not like really big boxes so the change makes sense so other characteristics must have been improved

both systems must be killer subs with very small differences as you state and the price difference is just too much.

you can get a new 4645c for Les than 1000 shipped to your home and a killer sub amp (crown dsi1000 bridged)for Les 1000. that includes an parametric 6 band eq and hi pass and low pass filters

this system will kick but in the 2000 usd category by far

one array1500 will cost you 4 grand it will go lower but i think please comment you wont bet better bass than a properly set of two 4645c

the only inconvenience is the size of the boxI just saw this via a linking thread.

Making the box smaller decreases group delay and that can have a positive effect on transient response.

My take on the whole subject is that the 2242H was intended as a very high power replacement for all the abused 2245H's that were originally installed in the 4645 boxes.

At some point someone realized that nearly the same performance could be obtained from the 2242H by moving to the smaller 6.5 cubic foot box of the S1S-EX (can't do that with a 2245H). I've been told that JBL has since come up with a new eighteen that behaves more like the venerable 2245H. I can't remember the model number right now.

The 1500 Array would be my choice if cost were no object. It's a non-SR package that is purpose-built for home hi-fi. I know the pricing can be confusing but you really have to consider the target markets.

[JBL 4645]

As for the ports on sevreal of the JBL 46 sub bass model range some have two ports like on the JBL 4645B they bend inwarads at 45 degee angle. The sub has nice deep low end shake n' feel.

[Valentin]

thanks for your coments



The 1500 Array would be my choice if cost were no object


mine too (design i like more the hb5000)but at the moment cost is factor :(
especially if you think in buying 2 units for better in room bass

but i think my 2 b460 (2242) clones in my specialized music room should do extremely well




I've been told that JBL has since come up with a new eighteen that behaves more like the venerable 2245H. I can't remember the model number right now.


maybe in the near future

[JBL 4645]

thanks for your coments



mine too (design i like more the hb5000)but at the moment cost is factor :(
especially if you think in buying 2 units for better in room bass

but i think my 2 b460 (2242) clones in my specialized music room should do extremely well



maybe in the near future

Maybe stereo sub bass!:bouncy:

[4313B]

but i think my 2 b460 (2242) clones in my specialized music room should do extremely wellNo doubt :yes:

The characteristic that jumped out at me when I heard my first pair of 2242H's was how incredibly clean they sounded.

[baldrick]

I've been told that JBL has since come up with a new eighteen that behaves more like the venerable 2245H. I can't remember the model number right now.


It could be the 2269H you're thinking of? Used in some Vertec woofers and some ASB woofers like ASB7118 (http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/general/Product.aspx?PId=299&MId=2). There's also the custom Revel Rhythm 2 (http://blog.hometheatermag.com/cedia2009/Revel%20Rhythm.jpg) woofer made by JBL, but haven't seen any info about that one yet.

To threadstarter: If you're interested in S1S-EX, a forum member in Norway are selling his 4 clones (http://avforum.no/avtorget/data/12/large/IMGP0647s.jpg) for a resonable price

[spkrman57]

The characteristic that jumped out at me when I heard my first pair of 2242H's was how incredibly clean they sounded.


When I had a pair of 2242H in 9 cu ft cabs in my living room I was using a single PE sub plate amp (250 watts) and never came close to tapping the wattage.

My WT2 measured approx -3db/35hz, but pipe organ music never missed a note!!!


In my 12' x 16' room I feared structural damage if I continued to run them on a regular basis.

I now have a pair of 2245 cores that were reconed to 2240H's and plan to try them out in 6 cu ft box sealed run off a McIntosh MC-240 and using a Reckhorn B1 to control the bottom end. It has a variable HI/LO pass filters and a variable EQ.

I'm just researching the resistor network to pad down my main amps speaker output and reduce it to line level for input to the B-1. I don't have a pre out/pwr in on my integrated 300B amp. Also, the B-1 has a input impedance of only 10K ohms which would kill a tube preamp looking for a MUCH higher input impedance.

I look for room gain to fill in the rest.

That project will be a few months down the road as my throat surgery next Monday is center stage for attention right now.

Regards, Ron

[Doc Mark]

Hey, Ron,

Best of luck in your upcoming surgery, Sir! Get well soon, so you can continue singing the praises of the things we all love: JBL goodies!! :applaud::applaud: I still have not yet played around, too much, with my 4645 cab & 2242H woofer. I got sidetracked with a horrible hum in the system, and have yet to track down the source, though as Bo so wisely suggested, it's probably my H/K preamp. Again, please keep us posted as to your recovery after the surgery, and we'll keep you in our prayers and thoughts. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[tony359]

I'm a cinema installer and an enthusiast about sound. I have two 4645B (just the box is slightly different) in my HT, but unfortunately the acoustic is very bad and led me to install those two beasts BEHIND me and not coupled, to handle the 25dB dip I have at 40Hz over my seat! :)

What I know from experience is that this sub without any EQ is not very deep, because of its 35Hz at -3dB. I was told that JBL used to ship these beasts with a "B6 filter" even though I've never managed to have an official word from JBL about it.

[louped garouv]

I'm a cinema installer and an enthusiast about sound. I have two 4645B (just the box is slightly different) in my HT, but unfortunately the acoustic is very bad and led me to install those two beasts BEHIND me and not coupled, to handle the 25dB dip I have at 40Hz over my seat! :)

What I know from experience is that this sub without any EQ is not very deep, because of its 35Hz at -3dB. I was told that JBL used to ship these beasts with a "B6 filter" even though I've never managed to have an official word from JBL about it.


can you tell us about your room set up, and any acoustic treatment you have?
as you know, we also like to look at pictures!

be well....

[Jonas_h]

I know this is an old thread, but I was hoping that someone could throw some light on the subject about 4645c vs. S1S-EX. I know both use same driver and same tuning, but I have talked to JBL which says, that the 4645c has -3db@35hz where the S1S-EX has -3db@20hz... Is this just marketing scam or does the S1S-EX actually provide better performance in the low frequencies? With same driver, same tuning and almost same enclosure size, I dont understand such a big difference in specs.

Anyone ever measured the 4645c and S1S-EX in the same room to compare the frequency response? I know Dome has both in his room, so it could be an interesting experiment :)

EDIT: I saw some rumors that they used aquaplas in the S1S-EX which would explain the extended frequency response. But this is not written anywhere and not confirmed by JBL.

[Valentin]

basicaly the 4645c will go a bit louder but the s1s-ex will have a bit better trancient response
same driver same tuneing freq same eq needed just a difrent box volume.

[4313B]

The 4645C is the factory built version to buy if you can't build your own. At the time JBL and I had this specific conversation the S1S-EX was twice as expensive and built half as solid. Either build your own or pick up some 4645C's if you can't build your own.

[Jonas_h]

basicaly the 4645c will go a bit louder but the s1s-ex will have a bit better trancient response
same driver same tuneing freq same eq needed just a difrent box volume.

This makes perfect sense in my head. But I just dont understand why JBL tells me that the -3db point is 15hz lower on the S1S-EX. Could it be, that they do their specs based on where it is going to be used? In a residential environment it is very likely that the 4645c/S1S-EX has -3db@20hz, but when used in a large theater with no room gain, the -3db is higher.

[Valentin]

I would go with 4645C its a great sub

but if you have the cash go for the 1500 array

[Jonas_h]

I would go with 4645C its a great sub

but if you have the cash go for the 1500 array


I already have dual 4645c's powered by a Crown CTs2000 - and I agree - its a great sub! But below 25hz it misses a lot. That is really obvious for movies and thats why I wondered about the JBL Synthesis systems - they really miss out on some of the low end stuff is the S1S-EX performs identical.

I have heard Array 1500's, and I dont think they can match the 4645C's from 30hz and up. The 4645c's are more articulate and have more "speed" (dont know the hifi-word for it). I use them up to 80hz where 2226H's take over.

[4313B]

This makes perfect sense in my head. But I just dont understand why JBL tells me that the -3db point is 15hz lower on the S1S-EX. Could it be, that they do their specs based on where it is going to be used? In a residential environment it is very likely that the 4645c/S1S-EX has -3db@20hz, but when used in a large theater with no room gain, the -3db is higher.You got it.

BTW, years ago I mentioned using aquaplas on the 2242H to get the Fs lower but JBL nixed the idea. I doubt they changed their minds for the S1S-EX. There actually is a "replacement" for the 2245H but I've long since forgotten the part number. The 2242H was designed for boundary reinforced installation while the 2245H (unintentionally) and its successor (intentionally) were designed for free standing applications.
I already have dual 4645c's powered by a Crown CTs2000 - and I agree - its a great sub! But below 25hz it misses a lot. That is really obvious for movies and thats why I wondered about the JBL Synthesis systems - they really miss out on some of the low end stuff is the S1S-EX performs identical.

I have heard Array 1500's, and I dont think they can match the 4645C's from 30hz and up. The 4645c's are more articulate and have more "speed" (dont know the hifi-word for it). I use them up to 80hz where 2226H's take over.Are you using a bump filter at 25 Hz?

Yes, the 2242H is the cleanest sounding eighteen I've ever had the pleasure of hearing. Like Greg says, "it's not of this world". I still prefer the 2245H for home though, it has more area under the curve down low. A 20 Hz Fs really does count for something. It isn't quite as clean sounding but it sounds so damn good just the same.

The original 4645 used the 2245H tuned to 25 Hz but it blew up in fixed installations. JBL tuned the 4645 up to 30 Hz and the 2245H still blew up. Then came the 2242H that could really handle the juice and they tuned the box back down to 25 Hz and the option to use a bump filter for fixed installations without blowing up the driver became viable. None of this matters nearly as much in a home environment because either driver should technically render you deaf, dumb and blind before you could hurt them. I have heard of a few people blowing up their B460's though (the original 4645 was the Pro version of the B460). I personally can't imagine...

[Jonas_h]

You got it.

BTW, years ago I mentioned using aquaplas on the 2242H to get the Fs lower but JBL nixed the idea. I doubt they changed their minds for the S1S-EX. There actually is a "replacement" for the 2245H but I've long since forgotten the part number. The 2242H was designed for boundary reinforced installation while the 2245H (unintentionally) and its successor (intentionally) were designed for free standing applications.Are you using a bump filter at 25 Hz?

Yes, the 2242H is the cleanest sounding eighteen I've ever had the pleasure of hearing. Like Greg says, "it's not of this world". I still prefer the 2245H for home though, it has more area under the curve down low. A 20 Hz Fs really does count for something. It isn't quite as clean sounding but it sounds so damn good just the same.

The original 4645 used the 2245H tuned to 25 Hz but it blew up in fixed installations. JBL tuned the 4645 up to 30 Hz and the 2245H still blew up. Then came the 2242H that could really handle the juice and they tuned the box back down to 25 Hz and the option to use a bump filter for fixed installations without blowing up the driver became viable. None of this matters nearly as much in a home environment because either driver should technically render you deaf, dumb and blind before you could hurt them. I have heard of a few people blowing up their B460's though (the original 4645 was the Pro version of the B460). I personally can't imagine...

I am using the filters which gives me the desired target curve. See green curve below. Below 25hz, it drops very fast. Maybe my room and sub placement is just not optimalt for <25hz and doesnt give enough room gain. I bought a cheap SVS PC13 sub and crosses it over to the JBLs at 25hz now. (Not on the graphs). This gives extension down to 14hz and is much better for movies. And I still get the great sound of the 4645c from 30hz and up.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/10759510/ForumPics/JBLCinemaV1/201105 - Rack etc/subs.jpg

[Valentin]

I already have dual 4645c's powered by a Crown CTs2000 - and I agree - its a great sub! But below 25hz it misses a lot. That is really obvious for movies and thats why I wondered about the JBL Synthesis systems - they really miss out on some of the low end stuff is the S1S-EX performs identical.

I have heard Array 1500's, and I dont think they can match the 4645C's from 30hz and up. The 4645c's are more articulate and have more "speed" (dont know the hifi-word for it). I use them up to 80hz where 2226H's take over.

first you say below 25hz and then you say above 30 hz :blink:

[4313B]

I am using the filters which gives me the desired target curve. See green curve below. Below 25hz, it drops very fast. Maybe my room and sub placement is just not optimalt for <25hz and doesnt give enough room gain. I bought a cheap SVS PC13 sub and crosses it over to the JBLs at 25hz now. (Not on the graphs). This gives extension down to 14hz and is much better for movies. And I still get the great sound of the 4645c from 30hz and up.The bump filter is a 12 dB/octave high pass filter with a high Q to give a 3 to 6 dB rise in response at the tuning frequency of the box. It's mostly port action at that frequency, the driver is doing next to nothing. Below the box tuning frequency the system response is falling off at 30 to 36 dB per octave due to the bump filter rather than the usual 18 dB to 24 dB per octave of a typical vented box system without EQ. This helps protect the driver which no longer has any benefit of restoring force from the box (it has unloaded) but it also mitigates any benefit of room gain, which usually occurs as a 12 dB per octave rise (that's why little sealed boxes such as the B212 and TiK sub go so bloody low).

Remember that the 4645 has a specific target specification that has to balance performance with longevity under duress. Yes, there are cheap little subs that will wipe the floor with the 4645 between DC and 20 Hz in a home but they will never, ever fill an entire auditorium with 25 Hz information with any kind of authority. That's why we often use home hi-fi subs instead. Technically the 1500 Array shouldn't be any better since it also uses a 25 Hz bump filter. However, it has a little bit more area under the curve than the 2242H does so it seems like it goes lower. A 2245H instead of the 2242H might give you more of what you want. Both drivers can also be tuned down to 20 Hz and the corresponding 20 Hz bump filter applied. Power handling will be reduced. It was never a problem for me personally in my home.

[pos]

There actually is a "replacement" for the 2245H but I've long since forgotten the part number.
Could that be the 2269H ?

[4313B]

2268 or 2269 sticks in my mind. I never researched it further so I couldn't tell you which is which off the top of my head. I think I posted their EDS in the transducer section for those interested.