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View Full Version : 4430 in a normal livingroom?



Figge
05-11-2004, 11:56 AM
hello all! nice place u got here! im pretty new to this since im in my mid 20:s i discovered the sound of L-100 a little over 10 years ago. & have two pairs stacked on eachother now ,its a pair of L-100 & a pair of 4311. i realize these may not be the very best speakers around. but i really like the sound they give. especially when playing 70:s rock&roll /blues. so far so good...now my problem comes. iv´e been offered a pair of 4430 that is seriosly in need of a recone. my question is: would these work in a normal livingroom @ about 35 squaremeters with the usual stuff ppl have in such? i dont know much about 4430. is it a good speaker? i listen to rock&roll & blues. been offered a pair of jubal too. maybe i should go for them? or should i go with the l-100:s? please clear this out for me...i can´t sleep at night :D

best regards figge!

Robh3606
05-11-2004, 12:02 PM
Take them ALL!!! Compare and keep what you like the most.

4430 will should work fine.

Rob:)

boputnam
05-11-2004, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by Figge
...would (4430) work in a normal livingroom andis it a good speaker? We have it on the best authority - Giskard and John Nebel - that the 4430 is simply one of the best JBL offered. Do a Search for "4430" and you'll find a wealth of stuff, even some comparisons by John Nebel. The recon is certainly worth it! :yes:

As for the L100's... :beamup:

4313B
05-12-2004, 06:23 AM
I had a normal living room once and the 4430's worked fine in it.

Ask Norbert what he thinks of his 4430's.

Like Rob says, check them all out if you have the option to do so.

Hofmannhp
05-12-2004, 06:40 AM
Originally posted by Figge (edited by HP)
..........my question is: would these work in a normal livingroom @ about 35 squaremeters .....best regards figge!

Hi Figge,
if I could....I would use them in my restroom :rockon1: :yes: take them....fine system.
HP

PS: welcome to the forum

Figge
05-12-2004, 06:54 AM
hi again! iv´e been looking around for some info on the 4430 and i can say im most impressed by these speakers...specially the bi-radial horns. if yhey sound half as good as my fathers l-200 im most satisfied. but these probably sound twice as good?. anyways next question is: do i need a nuklearplant to get these going? or would my 2*100 mid 80:s luxman work? i do not intend to play at rockconcert levels, but just checking.



regards figge

Figge
05-12-2004, 06:57 AM
restroom heh! nice. i guess im gonna go with the 4430:s. just gotta recone them.

Hofmannhp
05-12-2004, 07:12 AM
Originally posted by Figge
..........anyways next question is: do i need a nuklearplant to get these going? or would my 2*100 mid 80:s luxman work? i do not intend to play at rockconcert levels, but just checking.
regards figge

Hi again Figge,
the 4430 is a medium efficiency speaker with about 93dB/W/m.
will be fine for your Luxy.....no problem, no nuklear power plant, only the neighbours.:die:

HP

4313B
05-12-2004, 07:13 AM
What Lux do you have?

Figge
05-12-2004, 07:16 AM
l-430.

4313B
05-12-2004, 07:29 AM
Just curious :)
I guess I've not seen that particular model.

Figge
05-12-2004, 07:45 AM
here it is.... its some budget version of the 530. i had a luxman R-600 reciever before and i liked the sound of the r-600 better but it was only 30w. may have been enought for normal listening but....sometimes u jast wanna raise the volume.... :rockon2:
and that it did not like. this one handles loud volumes much better.

boputnam
05-12-2004, 08:11 AM
Originally posted by Figge
... do i need a nuklearplant to get these going? or would my 2*100 mid 80:s luxman work? Hey, figge... :wave:

HP's right, but I think you'd be more pleased with something a bit higher-output than the Luxman you're considering. And, don't be afraid of high-output amps - just 'cause they're large you needn't play them loud... :o

There's also some risk in using amps too low powered for the recommended application: http://www.jblpro.com/pub/technote/lowpower.pdf

And, JBL's note on system power requirements: http://www.jblpro.com/pub/technote/spkpwfaq.pdf

Just thought I'd thow them in...

JBL recommends biamping the 4430, and using a higher overall wattage than that Lux can deliver (see attached excerpt from 4430-35 brochure). And, you're going to want/need something with pretty good damping factor to control the recoil of those 2235's...

Here's the entire brochure for your library...

http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/443035.pdf

:coolness:

4313B
05-12-2004, 08:48 AM
The lowest powered unit I ever used on 4430's was the Luxman R-115 which worked pretty well.

Biamping is the best with a good tube job on the little 1-inchers.

Figge
05-12-2004, 08:56 AM
as you say about the risk of small amps...i had a pair of infinity SM-120 before my l-100:s. and i blew the tweeters 3 times within the year i owned them. i had a lot of difrent small/medium amps. it wasnt until i bought a luxman M-120A that it stoped...and by then i was tierd of the infinitys. it wasnt a good speaker. had the l-100 since. never a single problem, had many amps since then too. i do regret selling the M-120 tought. i dont dig the pre/poweramp setup. i like a godole reciever that weighs 40+ pounds. had a pioneer 1010 probably the amp i liked best of them all.


sorry....here im going on about some old amps....but i dont want to buy speakers (4430) that cost twise what my volvo did) and blow the horndrivers...any suggestions on minimum amp/reciever?


figge

Figge
05-12-2004, 09:00 AM
but i guess a little common sense will do...when the amp is clipping = dont raise more. but in the case of the infinitys that did not help.

4313B
05-12-2004, 09:07 AM
I thought the M120A was a bit shy on current capacity and wasn't able to keep 2235H's and 2245H's in line when driven hard. I thought it worked fine on the smaller JBL systems. I routinely drove L150A's with the M120A's.

The little one-inch compression driver in the 4430 and 4435 could be considered the weak link. It can be overdriven.

boputnam
05-12-2004, 09:40 AM
I've said elsewhere, the QSC line has excellent ability - and Ian's recent hearing of them has born-out my favorable impressions. I'm not certain how available they are in Europe, but they should be (or comparable will be). Follow Giskard's advice on a nice tube amp for the 2425H...

Figge
05-12-2004, 09:48 AM
mhmm...that would be nice...iv´e allways wondered what a tube sounds like. maybe its time to take that step. then i´ll run a solid on the woofer and a tube on the horn? thats gotta rock!

4313B
05-12-2004, 10:12 AM
"thats gotta rock!"

That's what they tell me! ;)

Figge
05-12-2004, 11:39 AM
would something like the crown CE-2000 or QSC USA major 1300 or Adcom GFA-555 drive these speakers? these are PA-amps...whats the difference? does they sound bad or?

4313B
05-12-2004, 11:53 AM
I've never tried that particular Crown, or any QSC. The GFA-555 does fine. I've used the smaller GFA-545 as well.

I'd be interested in trying a QSC amp sometime.

Figge
05-12-2004, 12:04 PM
but does pa-amps compare with home models, the sound i mean. the power seem to exeed the usual home equip.. at the cost of soundquality?

4313B
05-12-2004, 12:07 PM
I'm not getting into that argument! :no:

Sorry! :(

boputnam
05-12-2004, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by Giskard
I'd be interested in trying a QSC amp sometime. I've got a CX-502 idle - spec'd at 300w 8ohm (x2) and 500w 4 ohm (x2). Damping Factor >500 @ 8ohms.

http://www.qscaudio.com/products/amps/cx/cx2/cx2.htm

If that fits any application you've got, I'm game.

CX is "contractor" series, inputs are XLR and Euro-style, outputs are Barrier Strip (only).

So, just how curious are you...? For the sake of science, I'm in... :yes:

boputnam
05-12-2004, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by Figge
but does pa-amps compare with home models, the sound i mean. the power seem to exeed the usual home equip.. at the cost of soundquality? I'm using a number of QSC in the home - not intentionally, but when a prior band dis-banded, I had some great gear, and figured - "why not...??" Now, I'm never going off pro gear. And, have no reason to switch from QSC - ask Ian MacKenzie who seemed quite favorable impressed and he's smarter about these things than am I (I just have highly evolved ears... :) ).

And, if you're disciplined about the clip filters and gain, you'll not have a worry - particularly with those 4430's.

The QSC have a number of DIP switch options (I/O): clip filter; Lo-cut filter (and selectable 75Hz or 33Hz); Bridging.

To end, "home models" :barf:

Robh3606
05-12-2004, 08:29 PM
I am with you Bo. If you look at my set-up it could easilly be called a PA between the drivers used and the gear. All of the electronics save the Preamp/source are Pro Gear. I think it's all great stuff. My amps can be strapped at a flick of a switch. It can all be run either balanced/unballanced. It has selectable high and lowpass filters to keep both low and high garbage out of my speakers. I can mute drivers and invert phase easilly. It's all rack mounted so access is easy and I can reconfigure my amps and crossovers to cover almost any combination of drivers I can think of without it turning into a nightmare. I just don't see that kind of flexabillity in typical consumer gear. It sounds good too

Rob:)

Figge
05-17-2004, 08:44 AM
well i will try out a PA-amp and see. a buddy of mine has some disco stuff. so i´ll borow a LAB amp and see....

but i guess it all comes down to taste. as we say in sweden "smaken är som baken...........delad!" in english that would be some like " taste is like the ass.....divided. hmm doesnt sound right.




figge

4313B
05-17-2004, 08:47 AM
Alrighty then! :rotfl:

Norbert
05-17-2004, 12:07 PM
Hi Figge,

as you can see on this picture:

http://www.diyaudio.de/assets/images/mysystem1.jpg

I'm currently using a pair of 4430 in my living room. The room is also around 40 m² big. That's a good size for these speakers. I tried various preamps (Audio Research SP-3, Yamaha C2-a, my own FET preamp) and power amps (Hafler 9505, Cayin 788, McIntosh 2100, Uchida 300B, my own OTL tube amplifier) and I found that in the end the 4430 were rather difficult to drive. They do have good sensitivity but need the right damping provided by the power amplifier to come up to best results. But that's also a question of personal taste. I personally prefer to have at least one tubed device in my signal chain (preamp or power amp).

Best regards,

Norbert

boputnam
05-17-2004, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by Norbert
...need the right damping provided by the power amplifier to come up to best results. Bingo! :thmbsup:

And, beautiful set-up, Norbert! Thanks for the pic... :coolness:

Hofmannhp
05-17-2004, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by Norbert (edited by HP)
.....I'm currently using a pair of 4430 in my living room. The room is also around 40 m² big. .....Best regards,
Norbert

Hi Norbert,
where are you living in Frankfurt? pic looks like near Eschersheimer Landstr.

HP

Norbert
05-18-2004, 12:22 AM
Hy HP,

sorry that's not Eschersheimer Landstraße! Im living in good old Rödelheim. Actually the back-yard you can see on this photo is just the triangle between Alt-Rödelheim, Reichsburgstraße and Burgfriedenstraße.

Best regards,

Norbert

Figge
05-24-2004, 01:32 AM
Originally posted by boputnam
And, you're going to want/need something with pretty good damping factor to control the recoil of those 2235's...



what is pretty good? 100+ or? have bought a interM REF-2300. is it possible to use my luxman as pre-amp for this?. also got a pair of fender speakers. gonna be intressting to see what it sound like! probably terrible huh? probably gonna sell those fenders. but the amp is lookin´ good!

Norbert
05-24-2004, 09:25 AM
Originally posted by Figge
what is pretty good? 100+ or?
According to my experience with various tube amps I would say that 8-10 is the minimum. A damping factor of around 10 is provided by most push-pull tube amps using a pair of KT88 or 6550 tetrodes like the McIntosh MC275 or Audio Research D76. Single ended triode amps using a single triode like 300B, 2A3 or AD1 often come with damping factors as low as 1-2. They are definitely out of scope driving the 2235 driver of a 4430.
I'm reaching deep into the area of personal taste but I think there is a limit at the other end too. I can't tell where this limt exactly is but amps like the Hafler 9505 (damping factor 1000) tend to withdraw some of the indispensable characteristics of the 4430 like liveliness and imaging. The top of the line Hafler is definitely not a bad amp but I would call the presentation flat and lifeless in comparison to a good tube amp or a transistor amp using an output trannie like the McIntosh 2100 (damping factor 14).

Best regards,

Norbert

boputnam
05-24-2004, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by Figge
what is pretty good? 100+ or? Sorry Figge - was gigging this weekend and that kept me aways from the Forum (and unintended L100 bashing, but that surely saved me some $$ !! :rotfl: )

Do a Search for "Damping Factor", and you'll inevitably end-up at the dreaded "Amplifiers are more significant than you think" Thread: http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=347&highlight=damping+factor+qsc The boys really got into it about damping factor (I even chimed in... :slink: ) with it's cross-links to other quasi-relevant Threads.

I don't know what the "right" number is. I know that the QSC's report ">500", and they produce very tight bass in both my home, and road PA gear (dual 18's, stereo). I would not advise using a tube amp for your lowrange. Many members here have similarly advised against that application. For the highs, fine...

Figge
05-27-2004, 10:26 AM
ok... question about preamp...if i was to use the interM ref-2300 amp witch is a pro-amp. and my luxman l-430 can be used as pre amp. but i wonder would a basic 2 maybe 4 channel mixer (nothing expensive) do the work as pre amp better than the lux? cd player i use is a denon DN-2000F guess u can call it a pro player? vinyl player is a dual 505 mk2 with AT-95E. please dont give up on me cuz of all my stupid quesstions.:D