JBL 4312A v.s. the audiophile

[plasticempire]

Is it just my imagination or does this speaker kick major ass for the price? I've experimented with more expensive audiophile brands in the past and finally decided I needed to take a different approach. I love my other gear:

Conrad Johnson PV10A tube preamp
Conrad Johnson MF-200 power amp
Rega P3 turntable w/ Grado Reference Platinum cartridge

but I never was very happy with the speaker end of the equation until now. I mostly listen to rock music and want to get as close as possible to the original master recording (what the band heard when they were in the control room). I finally thought to do some research and discovered what makes perfect sense - many of the albums I listen to were most likely recorded in studios using JBL's. The 4312A's seemed a logical place to start. They have the punch and low end I was looking for plus the detail my system can reveal. I found them in mint condition for $500 and am now a believer.

I wonder why the audiophile world doesn't recognize these speakers. In my opinion, JBL owners seem to be fans of music. Audiophiles often come across as equipment snobs who look down on rock and roll. Long live rock!

[BMWCCA]

I wonder why the audiophile world doesn't recognize these speakers. In my opinion, JBL owners seem to be fans of music. Audiophiles often come across as equipment snobs who look down on rock and roll. Long live rock!Maybe because the 4411, 4412, and 4412A go deeper on the bottom and are more accurate? I like rock, but I also like jazz, new-age, etc. Fine speakers they are, but the 4312 series were "control" monitors in the JBL parlance. The 4412/As were "studio" monitors developed later for a flatter response curve most call more "accurate". The reason many like the sound of the 4312 is because it was designed to have a more "forward" midrange and a rise around 40Hz. JBL says this was done to mimic the then-industry-benchmark Altec 604 monitor. You'd be correct in saying many of the recordings from the mid-80s back were engineered on such control monitors but that doesn't necessarily translate perfectly to your living room unless you're sitting at a bench with those speakers right in front of your head.

I'll take issue with your statement that the audiophile community doesn't recognize the older JBL monitors simply by saying your willingness to pay the price you paid proves they have retained value today based on someone's published opinion. Your definition of audiophile and the distinction you draw between "equipment snobs" and "music lovers" might be a bit biased. But so is mine. I usually think anyone who lists Conrad Johnson in his system description is as an equipment snob. ;)

I congratulate you on a good start in the JBL experience. I think you can learn a lot about your new find here on this site in both the archived posts and the indispensable library. Hopefully this won't be your last pair of vintage JBLs.

[Mr. Widget]

Conrad Johnson PV10A tube preamp
Conrad Johnson MF-200 power amp
Rega P3 turntable w/ Grado Reference Platinum cartridge

I finally thought to do some research and discovered what makes perfect sense - many of the albums I listen to were most likely recorded in studios using JBL's. The 4312A's seemed a logical place to start.

I wonder why the audiophile world doesn't recognize these speakers.
Sounds like you're an audiophile to me... you don't have your little JBLs plugged into a recent issue AVR or listen to MP3s. :)

As to why more people don't listen to those particular speakers? For '70s rock, you are spot on... most was run through a pair of these or a JBL cousin, and '70s rock sounds good on them, but there are other speakers that also kick butt and yet will also show off the finesse in some other music types. For years I was under the impression that two systems were necessary... one for kick butt rock and one for more "audiophile" fare... and while that is likely true at the real world economic end of the spectrum, you can find very large and very expensive speakers from Wilson, Avantgarde, and several others that can do both.


Widget

[plasticempire]

Since you both put it that way I guess we're all audiophiles to a certain degree. I mean here we are geeking out on a forum.

As far as my gear goes I have to say I've literally had a few 'serious' audiophiles refer to my Conrad-Johnson gear as appliances. I even had one salesperson tell me that if I want to listen to rock music loudly he couldn't help me!

I play in a rock band for a living and produce our albums. Perhaps with the 4312A's I'm responding to what my ears are used to hearing in the studio. All I'm trying to get across is that they sound right to my ears as compared to what I've tried in the past and they didn't cost nearly as much. It's a starting point. Maybe some day I'll jump up to a pair of big blue JBL's. Point is I'm now a fan and it isn't because some audiophile type turned me on.

[Mr. Widget]

I play in a rock band for a living and produce our albums. Perhaps with the 4312A's I'm responding to what my ears are used to hearing in the studio. You might find this conversation interesting. One of the professional producers on the panel also uses 4312As in his office.

http://philoctetes.org/Past_Programs/Deep_Listening_Why_Audio_Quality_Matters

The conversation is 2 and a half hours long. Much is the stuff that has been discussed in many audiophile get togethers and other venues, but I found it interesting just the same.

I learned about it here:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=234239


Widget

[plasticempire]

Very interesting to watch. I actually worked with Greg Calbi (the moderator) a few years back. He's a smart guy and his mastering studio at Sterling Sound is pretty sweet. Thanks for passing that along.

[4313B]

Since you both put it that way I guess we're all audiophiles to a certain degree. I mean here we are geeking out on a forum.Well... it degenerated down to that. The original intent was to merely provide qualified answers to pertinent questions within the original scope of this specific website. It all went straight to hell from there. :rotfl:

But as several members have pointed out, it can't all be just sterile Q & A. :p

As far as my gear goes I have to say I've literally had a few 'serious' audiophiles refer to my Conrad-Johnson gear as appliances.Yeah, I finally realized that it wasn't anyone else's business what gear I had. It just isn't. No matter what you have someone else is going to denegrate it. And to what end? It's all just a bunch of fun, but goofy, toys we play with regardless of price. None of it beats the real thing.

I've gone to more than my fair share of those "audiophile" get-togethers and they are definitely NOT better than a sharp stick in the eye. :barf:

[cosmos]

You might find this conversation interesting. One of the professional producers on the panel also uses 4312As in his office.

http://philoctetes.org/Past_Programs/Deep_Listening_Why_Audio_Quality_Matters

The conversation is 2 and a half hours long. Much is the stuff that has been discussed in many audiophile get togethers and other venues, but I found it interesting just the same.

I learned about it here:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=234239


Widget

That is a great conversation... surely worth a listen to anyone interested in music, at least reproduced music and brings many different perspectives to the forefront.

In the end, it's all about enjoyment and fun. There is no conveyable right or wrong. Each of us have opinions of to what, where, when and how we listen and it's all good as long as we enjoy it..

Personally, I hate the word audiophile. Somehow it conveys a upper level of enjoyment not attainable by the masses, yet music is about the people. People can enjoy music played on some pretty low level music.. I remember as a young feller listening to Motown on CKLW AM on a transistor radio at the pool... Was I an audiophile then? Hell no and I hope I am not one now, even though I know much more about musical reproduction... I also remember hearing Chicago Transit Authority for the first time on one of those fold out record players and it was fantastic. A memory I will cherish for the rest of my life. :applaud:

Please do not mis-understand.. I am not equating the 4312A to a transistor radio or a fold out record player and I have enjoyed 4312As on many occasions. The point is, if you like it, it is great.

[4313B]

Personally, I hate the word audiophile.It's kind of creepy if you ask me...

[Robh3606]

Personally, I hate the word audiophile.

All it means is loves audio. I certainly do.

Rob:)

[4313B]

All it means is loves audio. I certainly do.Ok, thanks for that update Rob. :p

It's still kind of creepy. :rotfl:

If I need a label I'm a musicphile I guess... I get enough audio (aka flak) from the peanut gallery.

[Titanium Dome]

Have you been to this site?

http://www.thebig8.net/

I started listening to CKLW AM800 around 1960. Living across Lake Erie near Toledo gave us a very strong signal. CK was everywhere.

When I got my brand new L100s in 1970, I tuned the Kenwood KR-6160 receiver to CKLW to listen to CKLW first, even before hooking up the Dual 1219 to listen to Shades of Deep Purple. (I first heard "Hush" on CKLW.)

[Titanium Dome]

All it means is loves audio. I certainly do.

Rob:)

Agreed. Unhappily, it's been misappropriated by those who love equipment, brand name, cost, and exclusivity to the detriment of the simple love of musical sound. Today it's more a point of contention than a point of agreement.

Still, I love music, even trance on my iPod and JBL Creature. :bouncy: I consider them the tools of an audiophile as much as my multi-thousand dollar set ups or original L100s. :D

Audiophile has a bad rap and bad rep because it's misused by snake oil salesmen, so I understand why people are so averse to using it, even though it's only a word.

[hjames]

Agreed. Unhappily, it's been misappropriated ... to the detriment of the simple love of musical sound. Today it's more a point of contention than a point of agreement.

Still, I love music, even trance on my iPod and JBL Creature. :bouncy: I consider them the tools of an audiophile as much as my multi-thousand dollar set ups or original L100s. :D

Audiophile has a bad rap and bad rep because it's misused by snake oil salesmen, so I understand why people are so averse to using it, even though it's only a word.

Still, it's like calling yourself a music lover ...
even thats misunderstood because some folks have really crappy tastes in music!

[BMWCCA]

It's kind of creepy if you ask me...

I agree. And, despite the intrinsic innocuous intention, "philatelist" sounds even worse!

It's all Greek to me!
Or should that be Geek? ;)

[Mr. Widget]

Was I an audiophile then? Hell no and I hope I am not one now, even though I know much more about musical reproduction... I really dislike statements like that... to me it is a confusion between snobbishness and enthusiasm.


It's kind of creepy if you ask me...See above.


All it means is loves audio. I certainly do.Exactly!

I became interested in the reproduction of music and an early audiophile when at at age 11, I heard for the first time the sound of shimmering cymbals while listening to my dad's even then old entry level Sony reel to reel through some ten dollar headphones. Thinking back on it, it was exactly the premise of that filmed discussion. Up until then, I had only heard music on my mono transistor radio or through the crappy lid speakers that came with the Sony, or through the 3" speaker in the TV. I already liked music... that was a natural. I enjoyed listening to my transistor radio, but once I heard a glimpse of what I had been missing I was hooked. I sought out my dad's friends who had Ampex decks and AR or KLH or JBL speakers. I was hooked. I wanted more! I began reading hand me down High Fidelity magazines and lusting after my own system.... by high school I was able to get my dad to buy a Fisher receiver and some less than excellent Fisher XP something or other speakers... this led me to Speakerlab in Seattle where I read every free technical gazette and every publication I could get my hands on and eventually built my first speakers... now decades and hundreds of pairs of speakers I have built and sold later, I still love this stuff. I still love music and I still love audio reproduction.... therefore I must still be an audiophile.

Unfortunately within the audiophile community there is a sizable group, on line at least, who view discriminating listeners who have made the financial sacrifice to own quality and sometimes exotic gear as somehow merely a bunch of snobs. Of course some audiophiles are snobs, so are some beer drinkers, so are some golfers... but being an enthusiast does not make a person a snob.

Then there is that other label... geek. Yep, we must all where that one with pride as well. ;)



Widget

[4313B]

therefore I must still be an audiophile.Whoa! Ca-reepy! I had no idea... :rotfl:


Then there is that other label... geek. Yep, we must all where (sic) that one with pride as well. ;)Would that be a technophile?

[Doc Mark]

Hi, Widget,

I really appreciate what you have written above! You smacked the old nail square on the head, me thinks, and I see that I have trod a similar path to yours, at least in some small ways. My Dad had some old "Hi-Fi" stuff, back in the late '50's, early '60's, and I have no idea exactly what it was. But, it sounded really good to me at the time! I remember playing his "Slaughter on 10th Avenue" LP, over and over again, at what I thought was a fairly high volume, and LOVING it!!! At the time, I had an old .45 RPM changer in my room, and Dad's system, whatever it was, SMOKED my little changer with it's built-in speaker, and it's tone-arm stacked with a couple of nickels to insure better "tracking"!! :rotfl:

Later, when I began to play music for a living, I began to build speaker cabinets, with varying success. I soon stumbled onto Speaker Lab, and like you, ordered every "white paper" they offered! Using their ideas and formulas, I finally began to build speaker systems that sounded good to my ears, and with lots of different kinds of music! I still have the first good sub/sat system that I built, using their info, and it still sounds pretty darned good, to. (woofer in sub finally died, but may be replaced, someday, just for fun!)

But, I lusted after a pair of the JBL L300's, or something similar, for reasons that I've detailed here before. That eventually brought me to where I am today, which is in Audio Heaven, as far as I'm concerned! Yes, I know that there are certainly different tiers in Audio Heaven, and that I still have more wonderful experiences ahead of me. But, as I get older, I have found that, sometimes, it pretty wonderful to just enjoy the satisfaction of the tier you have finally attained, and there is something comforting about having come to that point in my life, at almost 60!! Life is good, music is good, and a nice system, on which to enjoy music, is truly and wonderfully good, too!! Thanks for your very well-stated comments, Widget! Your thoughts certainly took me on a trip down memory lane: from my old 45 changer, to Dad's old system, to early speaker building, to Speaker Lab, and finally to where I am today! It's been a great and fantastic journey, and I've loved it, every step of the way!! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[toddalin]

I agree. And, despite the intrinsic innocuous intention, "philatelist" sounds even worse!

It's all Greek to me!
Or should that be Geek? ;)


"Creepies Porgy, I didn't know you masterb....." :D

[Titanium Dome]

As a young kid, I always thought "oenophile" was a particularly creepy word, and that "pedophile" wasn't so bad (I thought it was foot lover) until I realized that "pediphile" was a foot fetishist and pedophile was something much, much worse. :die:

[4313B]

pedophile was something much, much worse. :die:BTW - Is a Pedephile someone who loves pedestrians? :blink:

[BMWCCA]

BTW - Is a Pedephile someone who loves pedestrians? :blink:

Nope!

http://www.tweezerman.com/images/products/Tweezerman/5044-R.JPG

[hjames]

Nope!

http://www.tweezerman.com/images/products/Tweezerman/5044-R.JPG
You HEEL!

[BMWCCA]

You HEEL!Don't be so callus!

[Robh3606]

You two are so corny

Rob:)

[plasticempire]

I'm an agoraphobiaphile - meaning I purposefully fear leaving the house by listening to too much vinyl. That being said, I'm going to reach out to you folks for a recommendation.

My friend came over today to hear my newly acquired 4312A's. I hadn't had a chance to really open them up. They sound great and accurate at lower volume levels, which is how I usually listen, but kind of harsh when turned up. I not only want to be able to feel the sound a bit more on occasion, I might also be craving a slightly warmer JBL speaker.

If I were to move up to something beefier from the 4312A's, what would you suggest? As I've stated before in my initial post that started this crazy thread - I love rock music. I therefore see myself needing bigger sound down the road. I'm running a tube preamp into 200 watts per channel solid state so I have plenty of warmth and power. Thoughts? Thanks!

[Mr. Widget]

My friend came over today to hear my newly acquired 4312A's. I hadn't had a chance to really open them up. They sound great and accurate at lower volume levels, which is how I usually listen, but kind of harsh when turned up.That's no surprise... they are meant for mid to near field monitoring and don't really play music at realistic rock and roll levels... neither will the venerable L100 or any vintage JBL that doesn't involve compression drivers and horns... actually the newer LSR 6332 really won't do it either... none of these systems can get super loud without some distortion and dynamic compression... simply the physics of it all.

My recommendation would be 4345... the other large 43XXs will also play loudly, but the rest of them have a more colored sound and need EQ to sound right... even the 4345 can use some EQ, but it is probably the most accurate of the big boys... In many ways the 4430/35 are more accurate than the 43XX series, but to my ears they also get harsh when pushed. If you are up for EQ and really want to blast the music, you might consider the 4350... overall, not a favorite of mine, but for live rock and roll in your house, it is a tough one to beat.


Widget

[jblnut]

For the rockers out there (you know who you are), I'll add that the 250TI plays loud quite well, especially if you use tube amps to keep the high end mellow. I'm sure the horn-loaded JBLs would play louder and with better dynamics, but I find the 250TI to be more than enough for "live" listening sessions in a normal living room.

My avatar isn't just for show....

:rockon2:

jblnut




That's no surprise... they are meant for mid to near field monitoring and don't really play music at realistic rock and roll levels... neither will the venerable L100 or any vintage JBL that doesn't involve compression drivers and horns... actually the newer LSR 6332 really won't do it either... none of these systems can get super loud without some distortion and dynamic compression... simply the physics of it all.

My recommendation would be 4345... the other large 43XXs will also play loudly, but the rest of them have a more colored sound and need EQ to sound right... even the 4345 can use some EQ, but it is probably the most accurate of the big boys... In many ways the 4430/35 are more accurate than the 43XX series, but to my ears they also get harsh when pushed. If you are up for EQ and really want to blast the music, you might consider the 4350... overall, not a favorite of mine, but for live rock and roll in your house, it is a tough one to beat.


Widget

[BMWCCA]

For the rockers out there (you know who you are), I'll add that the 250TI plays loud quite well, especially if you use tube amps to keep the high end mellow. I'm sure the horn-loaded JBLs would play louder and with better dynamics, but I find the 250TI to be more than enough for "live" listening sessions in a normal living room.

Similar bang, for a lot fewer bucks: L7, bi-wired with two 200wpc amps. A lot depends on the targeted acquisition cost. ;)

FWIW, my family thinks all JBLs play TOOOO loud. :rockon2:

[Titanium Dome]

Most of the better consumer four-ways will get you there: XPL200, L250, 250Ti, L7, etc., even a Performance Series stack (PT800/PS1400).

The big monitors like the 4345 or 4350 will definitely win the LOUD war, but they're big and need some work as Widget wrote. Some folks like to muck around with buying extra equipment and tweak, tweak, tweak. If you're like that, then they might be just right. My biggest pair of monitors is 4430, and they can rock out, but they required a sub (B380) to really fill them out and they can become tiresome, as IMO the 4345 or 4350 will without obsessive tweaking.

Often overlooked, the SVA2100 or SVA1800 will rock your 'nads and rock 'em hard. They're a good overall speaker, and a great rock speaker. That's your bang for the buck answer right there.

[Mr. Widget]

The big monitors like the 4345 or 4350 will definitely win the LOUD war...To clarify my post above, virtually every JBL will as their literature used to state, (I'm paraphrasing here) play extremely loudly before destruction, however as many of you know, the sound quality changes as you turn them up. If you listen to a pair of typical JBLs at 95dB and then blast them with power up into the >110dB range, they will do it. They will almost all get damned loud, but they don't all do it as well. The big 43XX systems will change the least... but as I alluded to and Dome reiterated, they do need to be properly installed and typically EQ'd.


Widget

[Krunchy]

Then there is that other label... geek. Yep, we must all where that one with pride as well. ;)
Widget

The Geek Shall Inherit the Earth!

(It would probably be for the best too)

[Robh3606]

They will almost all get damned loud, but they don't all do it as well. The big 43XX systems will change the least... but as I alluded to and Dome reiterated, they do need to be properly installed and typically EQ'd.


I agree. I have had a couple of 4 way run offs against the XPL200A clones and the 4344 win when things get loud. The XPL'S can't keep up with the lower half of the combo the 2235 and 2122. At normal levels they sound very similar on axis with edge going to the XPL'S for the highend and imaging. The EQ depends on your room. I can get by without any on mine with careful driver adjustment. Here they are at 2 meters.

Rob:)

[4313B]

Yeah, as cute as the 115H-1 is, it is no match for an older 2122H.

I remember back when I took the then brand new XPL Series out of their boxes how disappointed I was that the XPL200 wasn't running the LE14H and 112H ( I was really looking forward to a 250Ti killer at the time :p ) and that the XPL160 wasn't running the LE10H. Too expensive to meet the price points I guess. The XPL90 ended up being my favorite of the Series. They worked real nice with the then ten-year-old B460's.

[plasticempire]

My recommendation would be 4345... the other large 43XXs will also play loudly, but the rest of them have a more colored sound and need EQ to sound right... even the 4345 can use some EQ, but it is probably the most accurate of the big boys... In many ways the 4430/35 are more accurate than the 43XX series, but to my ears they also get harsh when pushed. If you are up for EQ and really want to blast the music, you might consider the 4350... overall, not a favorite of mine, but for live rock and roll in your house, it is a tough one to beat.

The big monitors like the 4345 or 4350 will definitely win the LOUD war, but they're big and need some work as Widget wrote. Some folks like to muck around with buying extra equipment and tweak, tweak, tweak. If you're like that, then they might be just right. My biggest pair of monitors is 4430, and they can rock out, but they required a sub (B380) to really fill them out and they can become tiresome, as IMO the 4345 or 4350 will without obsessive tweaking.

Wow! Quite a step up from the 4312A! Just to be clear:

A) They won't live in a huge room
B) I ain't a rich man
C) I won't be blasting them all the time

The 4345s look amazing but seem massive, expensive, and hard to find. Since my tube preamp only has volume and balance controls, tweaking isn't an option and I don't really want to introduce an EQ. I'm trying to keep it simple.


For the rockers out there (you know who you are), I'll add that the 250TI plays loud quite well, especially if you use tube amps to keep the high end mellow. I'm sure the horn-loaded JBLs would play louder and with better dynamics, but I find the 250TI to be more than enough for "live" listening sessions in a normal living room.

This might be my ticket to ride although I'm concerned about moving up to a 4-way. Do these pyramid-like structures image well?

One of the reasons I bought the 4312As (and also ended up on this forum) was because I searched 'best speakers for rock music' and eventually found responses like these:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?cspkr&1118444741&openfrom&2&4#2

http://www.audioreview.com/cat/speakers/floorstanding-speakers/jbl/control-monitor-4312a/PRD_119695_1594crx.aspx

Btw, I want to thank you all for taking the time to respond!

[Guns]

As 4312A were used in studios, wanted to know how the latest LSR 6332 fare when compared to the models described here.

[Mr. Widget]

As 4312A were used in studios, wanted to know how the latest LSR 6332 fare when compared to the models described here.Do you mean how does the LSR compare with the 4345 or do you mean how does it compare with the 4312A?


Widget

[Guns]

Do you mean how does the LSR compare with the 4345 or do you mean how does it compare with the 4312A?


Widget
Wanted to know how does it compare with 4312A, but now would also like to know how it compares with 43xx models.

[Mr. Widget]

The LSR is much more accurate, i.e. flatter frequency response. It also has more frequency extension at each end of the spectrum. It is superior in these same areas over most of the other 43XX systems as well... that said, if higher SPL playback is desired, the bigger systems handle that task much better.


Widget

[plasticempire]

That's no surprise... they are meant for mid to near field monitoring and don't really play music at realistic rock and roll levels...

Yep don't get me wrong I'm keeping my 4312As. I just need to have them set up for a closer and more personal listening experience. Who needs friends when The Beatles almost appear in your living room!

I'm gonna go out on a limb here (and may get kicked off this forum by asking this) but does anyone out there also enjoy Klipsch speakers like the Cornwalls for big listening? I'm curious. Comparing JBL and Klipsch seems similar to comparing BMW and Mercedes. Both deliver solid performance. It's just a matter of taste and fair to assume one could enjoy both.

Hope I'm not offending anyone. I enjoy this forum.

[Mr. Widget]

Hope I'm not offending anyone. I enjoy this forum.I am sure you will offend some by bringing up Klipsch... but not me. I have owned the Cornwall, La Scala, and Klipschorn.



Comparing JBL and Klipsch seems similar to comparing BMW and Mercedes.I'd suggest the classic Klipsch designs are more like Packards. Well built and ahead of their time, but that was a long, long, time ago.


Widget

[BMWCCA]

Comparing JBL and Klipsch seems similar to comparing BMW and Mercedes. Both deliver solid performance. It's just a matter of taste and fair to assume one could enjoy both.No it's not.
One obviously out-performs the other. One makes stick-shifts in nearly every car model. One makes garbage trucks. Of course that's my opinion. Then some of my best friends have owned Klipsch for years, but they now drive BMWs! :applaud:

[jblnut]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here (and may get kicked off this forum by asking this) but does anyone out there also enjoy Klipsch speakers like the Cornwalls for big listening? I'm curious. .

.

I have spent a lot of time over the past 20 years listening to a good friend's system (as he has done the same with me) using the Klipsch Forte. He's got all top-shelf components (like an Audio Research SP11 Preamp, a modified Dynaco ST70 and a Linn LP12 table) and it sounds really, really nice. It is incredibly detailed and dynamic and very faithfully recreates the feel of "being there" at a live performance. It does have that "horn" sound though and the speakers can seem to "shout" at you at times. We compare and contrast the Fortes to my 250Ti's all the time and we both agree that each speaker does many things well. The 250Ti owns the frequency extremes (lows and highs) and has a smoother midrange to boot. But it has a "studio" sound where the Klipsch has a "live" sound if that means anything to you.


There are lots of other great speakers out there. No harm in talking about them....

jblnut