How to Bi-amp and maybe Tri-amp

[Bgoodhope]

Can anyone provide me with basic guidance on how to bi-amp or tri-amp a set of speakers? I made some DIY cabinets that have E145-8 for the low end 2440 drivers for mid range and 075 tweeters. I am currently using the LX5 and N7000 for my crossovers.
I would like to purchase a 2 or 3 way electronic crossover, and I guess my basic questions are:
If I Bi-amp will I need 2 amplifiers? My guess is the question answers itself. Yes
If I do a two way crossover with a three way system, would I still need the passive crossover for the mid and highs?
Is there any schematics that I could refer to?
Does all the power go into the crossover and get divided and distributed from there to the different speakers?
Does it matter if the high frequency amp is Class A and the low frequency power is Class A/B?
Years ago I heard a bi-amp'd pair of 4350's and it was quite impressive but I never bothered to look at how it was wired up.
I hope these are not really dumb questions
Thanks in advance.
Bill Goodhope

[Val]

Passive crossovers divide power amp output between various drivers.

Active crossovers divide pre-amp output between power amps which in turn drive the speakers.

I'm considering tri-amping my LE15A/372/075 rig and have attached a draft diagram I've been working on. Comments welcome.

[hjames]

Many folks do biAmp by splitting the bass leg off their existing crossover, and using an electronic crossover to feed 2 power amps.
In this configuration, the low split goes directly to a high power amp that feeds the Woofer directly.

The high split goes to the passive that feeds the mid and high F drivers.
Because its easier to hear noise among the high Freq drivers, you want the quietest amp on the high split. The Bass amp can be a bit lesser quality but higher powered.

The quality of your electronic crossover will also affect your ultimate sound - if you buy a cheap, noisy crossover, it can overcome any advantage you gained by biamping.

Do you have any existing amp gear? I tried doing this first with an older receiver and found my Front preamp out levels weren't really high enough to drive the crossover properly, so I had to run the levels higher and, again, wound up with more noise ...

I got a better receiver and that is now working fine. But many folks feel the only worthwhile way to REALLY do this is using separate components (Preamp, etc) and not using a "receiver" as the front end ...

I suffer with the receiver because I like the convenience of a remote for everything ... :D


Can anyone provide me with basic guidance on how to bi-amp or tri-amp a set of speakers? I made some DIY cabinets that have E145-8 for the low end 2440 drivers for mid range and 075 tweeters. I am currently using the LX5 and N7000 for my crossovers.
I would like to purchase a 2 or 3 way electronic crossover, and I guess my basic questions are:
If I Bi-amp will I need 2 amplifiers? My guess is the question answers itself. Yes
If I do a two way crossover with a three way system, would I still need the passive crossover for the mid and highs?
Is there any schematics that I could refer to?
Does all the power go into the crossover and get divided and distributed from there to the different speakers?
Does it matter if the high frequency amp is Class A and the low frequency power is Class A/B?
Years ago I heard a bi-amp'd pair of 4350's and it was quite impressive but I never bothered to look at how it was wired up.
I hope these are not really dumb questions
Thanks in advance.
Bill Goodhope

[Val]

I suffer with the receiver because I like the convenience of a remote for everything ... :D

Are you using receiver that has pre-amp outputs for all channels? Is that 5.1?

Thanks!

[Mannermusic]

Can anyone provide me with basic guidance on how to bi-amp or tri-amp a set of speakers? I made some DIY cabinets that have E145-8 for the low end 2440 drivers for mid range and 075 tweeters. I am currently using the LX5 and N7000 for my crossovers.
I would like to purchase a 2 or 3 way electronic crossover, and I guess my basic questions are:
If I Bi-amp will I need 2 amplifiers? My guess is the question answers itself. Yes
If I do a two way crossover with a three way system, would I still need the passive crossover for the mid and highs?
Is there any schematics that I could refer to?
Does all the power go into the crossover and get divided and distributed from there to the different speakers?
Does it matter if the high frequency amp is Class A and the low frequency power is Class A/B?
Years ago I heard a bi-amp'd pair of 4350's and it was quite impressive but I never bothered to look at how it was wired up.
I hope these are not really dumb questions
Thanks in advance.
Bill Goodhope

See attached - lots of DIY info, products: http://www.marchandelec.com/

[hjames]

Are you using receiver that has pre-amp outputs for all channels? Is that 5.1?

Thanks!
OK, I have a cheapie Hk AVR335 I think - something like 60w/ch
it can do 7.1 but I run it in 5.1 mode.
I can add amps for the other channels, or upgrade to a higher power HK receiver if I had a larger room or needed more power.

I use the internal amps for the surround channels, they only run when I'm playing surround sources
(TV/TIVO/DVD/DVD-Audio/SACD/etc)
For music the system pretty much drives just the 2 front mains via biamp

HKs rear amp outputs feed the pair of L20Ts hanging in the back.
HK Center amp output feeds a JBL LC2
HK Sub preamp out feeds an old Hk Citation 22 in bridged mode and that feeds a JBl B380 sub ...
HK Preamp out Front L/Front R go to biamp system rack below ...

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=35770&stc=1&d=1228682043

For the BiAmp stuff ...
Front L & R preamp out feeds Yamaha 31band EQ,
that feeds Ashley XR 1001 active crossover -
high split feeds JBL/UREI 6230 amp
Low split feeds JBL/UREI 6260 Amp (but I'm on the verge of replacing that with a 6290 amp for more headroom).

The Top unit is an Adcom sequenced power switcher, powers the accessories up first & the amps up last
and powers the amps down first and accessories last to avoid thumps.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=35771

[Val]

Very helpful...thanks

[1audiohack]

Can anyone provide me with basic guidance on how to bi-amp or tri-amp a set of speakers?


I live in Las Vegas and have a bunch of idle gear, if I can help give a yell.
Barry.

[Mr. Widget]

Very helpful...thanksHey Val, I am regularly in the PA area... and I have a pile of active crossovers that are not in use. I could lend you an Ashley, Rane, or Audio Arts... I have others that are also in storage, but they are either too expensive, too rare, or not quite working...

send me a PM if you'd like a loaner and help with set up.


Widget

[Tweak48]

If I do a two way crossover with a three way system, would I still need the passive crossover for the mid and highs?


That's what I did with my L-300s, and they sounded much better this way than with the stock set-up. I used a low end (as in cheap) dbx 2 way crossover and ran the LF through a solid state amp directly to the woofers. Used a tube amp for the mids and HF, into the internal L-300 passive network.

It really opened things up on the top, and man that s/s amp ruled those 136 woofs with an iron fist!!!

Good luck!

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t181/tweak48/DSC_0143.jpg

[Val]

That's what I did with my L-300s...It really opened things up on the top, and man that s/s amp ruled those 136 woofs with an iron fist!!!


Good to hear. What is the crossover freq of the 136 in your active rig?

[Tweak48]

Good to hear. What is the crossover freq of the 136 in your active rig?

The crossover frequency of the dbx is continiously variable; I set it at 900hz. As I remember, the cross point on the passive internal network is 800hz, so it set the active one a bit higher so as not to get in trouble with the passive network.

[Val]

The crossover frequency of the dbx is continiously variable; I set it at 900hz. As I remember, the cross point on the passive internal network is 800hz, so it set the active one a bit higher so as not to get in trouble with the passive network.

Thanks!

[loman69]

Hi all,

i would like to know that how to conect my so-called 2 ways 4344 system properly.

Connection 1: all output signal from preamp(left & right channel) go directly into my JBL M552, then the crossover divide it into HF & LF.
HF goes into the passive crossover of 4344
LF goes directly into the the woofer

problem: the HF went through 2 corssovers(both M552 and internal passive crossover of 4344)

Connection 2: my friend gave me a Y cable so the output singal from the preamp can be devided into 2.
Singal 1(from 20-20,000hz) simply goes directly into internal passive crossover of 4344
Singal 2 goes to M552, then the LF(from 20-320hz) goes directly into the woofers

For me, i perfer connection 2 because the coherence and the deeper bass.

Am I doing it right?

Joel

[JBL 4645]

Val

Like the diagram of the four-way tri-amp crossover. I’m only running basic two-way with DCX2496 LF and HF for JBL control 5 LCR. Like very much to get a few more DCX2496 and extend it further over what it is, but I’m quite pleased with its performance.

Basically with an active crossover which is what makes the sound clearer and it’s benefits of lower lows and higher highs with less distortion, excellent.

Sub bass diy JBL 4645 hasn’t at yet got its own crossover since the LFE.1 has its own cut-off at 120Hz and when used with Dolby stereo 4:2:4 films I select the (sw-re-mix) mode t reroute the low end to the JBL 4645.

I run a second sub Eltax A 12-R but its no where as good as the JBL its fine for extending the lows for the JBL control 5, and the x10 JBL control 1 that are fixed around the room in horseshoe shape.

One thing I find that is peace of mind with the DCX2496 is level control via its input and output LED display its dynamic EQ and audio limiters for loudspeaker portion.

Only one cinema in the UK uses (Loudspeaker Management Crossover System) dbx4800 at the Empire Leicester Square which is tri-amp 56KW and its out of this world with the custom JBL install, out of this world its like a breath of fresh Springtime air, which I’m waiting for, flipping cold at the moment. LOL

Home system
Kenwood KRF-X9050D THX select Dolby/dts 5.1
Yamaha DSR70Pro for sub bass left and right extension and upper centre channel decoding. it also acts as a preamp for left and right that feeds off to inputs channel A and C on the DCX2496

Yamaha DSP100 for centre channel for centre sub bass extension. the unit then feeds off to channel B on the DCX2496.

Pioneer VSP-200 that acts as preamp for surrounds and centre back surround decoding as well as matrix overhead channel output that is amplified only, doesn’t support RCA phone out, except for left and right centre and (sub bass which is used to extended the lows of the surrounds)

A few extra basic dinosaurs EQ that is used for left and right fronts as spectrum analyzer monitor. A EQ with spectrum analyzer for centre and (centre back arrays channel that is used to trim the back surrounds) (and one for the sidewall arrays surrounds that is used to trim the surrounds).

I use an audio mixer that has the low end for custom in-room tailoring
Audio mixers inputs

1 Left and right summed
2 Centre
3 Left and right surround summed
6 LFE.1

Each one has its own fader slider so I can trim the level to suit the most problematic issues in the LCRS as S tends to mask the centre too much on Star Trek III when the Klingon kills captain Kirk’s son, “You Klingon, bastard” LOL.

the primary full range channels are then feed from the two Yamaha DRS70Pro and DSP100 to over to the DCX2496 where crossover for LF LCR is selected (Bessel -12db 80Hz and Linkwitz-Riley -24db 1Khz) (its presently set at 805Hz) why because it adds a warmer feel on the JBL control 5.

HF for LCR is set at Linkwitz-Riley -24db 1Khz.

Each of the LF is powered by Alesis RA300 150watts 4ohm
Each of the HF is powered by my old but she’ll still hold Marartz 1050 amps that are rated I think at 65watts per side
Centre back surround is powered by one Alesis RA300
LFE.1, JBL 4645 is powered by x1 Alesis RA300 in bridge mode no issues as of far.
sidewall surrounds is powered by Marantz 1030

All the remaining Marantz amps are soon with Alesis RA300 or 500 or maybe other PA type soon.

Finally x1 Behringer BFQ2496 for parametric EQ for JBL and Eltax A 12-R

And that’s that.:)

[JBL 4645]

Low split feeds JBL/UREI 6260 Amp (but I'm on the verge of replacing that with a 6290 amp for more headroom).


Headroom what in the blazes are you doing to that 6290 headroom are you kidding, that packed a wallop at the Empire with its original 13KW JBL THX sound system. That room is small about the same size give or take a few -+ inches. Keep the 6290 or get a few more of them.

I need a slightly bigger amp for the JBL 4645 in my room as I fear the RA300 or even possibly an RA500 in bridge mode wouldn’t be enough, if you don’t want the 6290 ship it off to me, LOL just kidding :D keep it. I’ll be looking at possible Behrenger 2.4KW amp to run the sub safely, but those 6290 served many years at Empire with trilling impact. :applaud:




Hey Val, I am regularly in the PA area... and I have a pile of active crossovers that are not in use. I could lend you an Ashley, Rane, or Audio Arts... I have others that are also in storage, but they are either too expensive, too rare, or not quite working...

send me a PM if you'd like a loaner and help with set up.


Widget

Now you’re reading Heathers posts too much its Ashly not Ashley LOL your not gay mate, thinking about me mate. LOL :o::D

[hjames]

That sounds like an awful lot of processing gear - surely there must be some kind of artifacting in all of that?
Then again, your primary media is movies, right?

So, which of your Control 5s are you biamping
(don't think they can be triamped, right?) ??



Finally x1 Behringer BFQ2496 for parametric EQ for JBL and Eltax A 12-R

And that’s that.:)

[JBL 4645]

That sounds like an awful lot of processing gear - surely there must be some kind of artifacting in all of that?
Then again, your primary media is movies, right?

So, which of your Control 5s are you biamping
(don't think they can be triamped, right?) ??

None what so ever no different if one looked at professional Dolby processors raked from top to bottom, thou most of the CP serve a purpose in function for different film formats. I’m just extending the entertainment a little bit here it doesn’t harm the sound I could pass each output from LCR and monitor from a single position.

Let me simply explain. The audio mixer I could unplug it and send the LF LCR into the inputs the send pink noise on automatic cycle from Kenwood KRF-X9050D send the output as single signal to centre channel balance the levels so that it sounds like one signal, no there isn’t anything wrong with what I’m doing.

Some on other sites fear and show concern that I might be degrading the signal. LOL no more than reading someone else’s, post that is having bigger issues and can’t figure out that (elusive Gremlin bug) (oh why can’t I get more bass from my centre channel???)

It works great if it didn’t I wouldn’t have it connected up as it is I’d aim for something a lot simpler. My friend said years ago, oh this might be 18 or 19 years, “all this gear to watch a film” LOL and that was very small at the time. I guess he hasn’t seen the inside of projection room. LOL :D


Not possible for the Control 5 is only 2-way like most common cinema installs that use one cab loaded with x2 15” for LF and x1 horn for HF. Or 1x LF cab 1x mid range and x1 high range to be powered independently.

You know I’ve kinder improved the sub bass response for the Eltax A12-R the volume on that was never set at full never. Now it is with a little thinking and setting the parametric EQ on the BFQ2496 at 403Hz with steep -36db and Q of 4.0 eliminates vocal dialogue seeping though where in bypass you, could imagine!:barf:

The crossover on that sub must be -12db I’d be surprised if it was -24db. The lows for LCRS play stronger and better than before and I use the audio mixer to trim the right amount over to it. You’ll never hear any voice dialogue within normal range of 500Hz seeping though (it’s as if its .1, discrete channel, well almost).;)

[jbl_daddy]

The 6290 has excelent grunt / attack for your application. I used three 6290's for a short time. I wanted amps with no fans and changed to Crown K1's and a K2 running twin B380's, I love the attack and every time I turn it up it still makes my hair stand on end. Ps. I use a Crown VFX-2 crossover, the only problem is my wife has a bad taste in music.

Mark

[JBL 4645]

The 6290 has excelent grunt / attack for your application. I used three 6290's for a short time. I wanted amps with no fans and changed to Crown K1's and a K2 running twin B380's, I love the attack and every time I turn it up it still makes my hair stand on end. Ps. I use a Crown VFX-2 crossover, the only problem is my wife has a bad taste in music.

Mark

You can always store the amps isolate them from the room to reduce fan noise and reroute all-cables to the amps and from amps to living room etc. There’s no need t ditch them.