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andychris
12-20-2008, 11:30 AM
Hello
It's my first message here. I do'nt speak a very good english, so excuse me.

I've got a pair of used 2404 and one of them is a little more powerfull than the other and when I had a look at the diaphragms, I had to see that they were not the same. It's maybie my probleme. So I would like to change those diaphragms but original JBL diaphragm are too expensive and I saw that a lot of shop are selling aftermaket diaphragm on ebay. BUT what to buy ? Is there a good thing to buy ? I can see that there are aluminium or titanium diaphragm, but what to buy ? Is there a real difference between the original ones and the aftermarket ones ? I use those 2404 as super tweeters on my S3100, so only hifi use.

thanx if you could help me
here is a picture of my diaphragms

http://andychris.free.fr/DSC_67271.JPG

toddalin
12-20-2008, 11:52 AM
The diaphram on the left is a 2402/075 while that on the right is a 2404/2405/077. The 2402 has a larger radiating area and so would be expected to play a little louder.

Can you do me a huge favor and measure (as accurately as possible) the outside diameter of the inner brass ring of the 2404/2405 on the right?

I am thinking of "turning" inside diameter of the 2402/075 phase plug to accomodate this diaphram and there is an interference at the outter edge of this ring.

Thanks!

andychris
12-20-2008, 03:42 PM
thanx for your answer, but do you know the differences between titanium/aluminium/aftermarket/genuine diaphragms ?

here are the dimensions
http://andychris.free.fr/DSC_67271.JPG

SMKSoundPro
12-20-2008, 07:05 PM
but do you know the differences between titanium/aluminium/aftermarket/genuine diaphragms ?
Dear Andychris,

I, too, have asked these same questions and the answers are buried here in this forum.
What I have learned is:

Titanium is a "stronger" metal. Will take a pretty good pounding, but maybe not the best sounding.
Aluminum is very good sounding, but gets brittle and breaks over time and use.
Is it possible for JBL to use titanium diaphragms for the compression drivers for its stronger character for reliability and less failure at the expense of sound quality?

I have used a couple of different aftermarket 2405 diaphrams from the sellers on ebay and found: that when loaded into a 2402/075 bullet tweeter that they work, but are just not quite right. When you have the opportunity to hold each of the diaphragms in your hands and really look it over, you see the minute differences that you can really hear.

I have stopped using aftermarket diaphragms in all applications, period. They are just not the same as the JBL diaphragms. They may look the same, but I bet my bottom dollar that they are not. If they were the same, we would know it and tell the world which ebay seller has the "good" ones at a cheaper price. Alas, this is not the case.

If you want the same performance that the incredible JBL engineers want you to have, you will use the real JBL products.

I don't want this post to scold you to use the OEM parts, but that is really the way it works. ( At least in my small world here in Alaska.)

Welcome to the forum! There is so much information here. Try the search function above and search for "aftermarket diaphragms." You may find some actual data and performance graphs to prove my points.

Happy holidays to you and yours,

Scotty.

toddalin
12-20-2008, 08:09 PM
Thank you for the measurements.

As to the aluminum vs titanium, I guess that depends on who you ask and the chosen application. I can't imagine that I would ever "wear out" a set of aluminum diaphrams due to fatigue in my lifetime in my living room setting even 4 hours a day, everyday. I know titanium can be coated to sound smoother (maybe more like aluminum).

I've never heard truely similar units in an A/B setting so don't know if I hear a difference and which I would prefer.

Mr. Widget
12-20-2008, 09:02 PM
.

andychris
12-21-2008, 01:53 AM
thanx for all

as I can see I've got nothing to do but buying a new pair or real original diaphragms. But paying again more than 200$ is not a good bargain for just a supertweeter. I don't understand why aftermarket diaphragms always exist if they are so bad.

Zilch
12-21-2008, 02:33 AM
Because, in some applications, it doesn't matter, as long as they make VHF sound.... :yes:

4313B
12-21-2008, 06:53 AM
Why do people feel the need to buy JBL transducers and then stick any old aftermarket diaphragms in them. Why not just buy cheap drivers in the first place and leave it at that?

With respect to the various diaphragm materials, "I doubt they'd be able to hear a difference between any of them." Given that, buy what you can afford and don't second guess yourself.

Mannermusic
12-21-2008, 07:28 AM
thanx for all

as I can see I've got nothing to do but buying a new pair or real original diaphragms. But paying again more than 200$ is not a good bargain for just a supertweeter. I don't understand why aftermarket diaphragms always exist if they are so bad.

Greetings from Detroit,

I don't think anyone is saying the aftermarket diaphragms are "bad" necessarily, they just are not exactly the same. You may like them better or worse - depends on your application and whether you have "golden ears." I have gone both ways and been lucky with results. Orange County Speaker, CA, had some aftermarket diaphragms a few years ago that they "guaranteed" sounded as good as original JBL. I suspect they were "reverse engineered" Chinese jobs. Anyway, I bought a couple for my 2426H drivers and found them to be indistinguishable from the original JBL jobs - but maybe I'm not in the "golden ear" category! In any case, one test is worth 1000 expert opinions! So it becomes an experiment and you are the engineer in charge! :blah: Mike

PS: I use original JBL diaphragms in my 375 drivers (main system).

Robh3606
12-21-2008, 08:47 AM
Aftermarkets are great!! If all you care about is the money saved. Here's a pair of aftermarkets and here's a pair of JBL's. Which would you want to use?? For SR work maybe for home no way.

Rob:)

andychris
12-21-2008, 08:58 AM
Yes i think i'm doubting about aftermarket because i think that if I use aftermarket in my tweeters, I will always think" the souns could be better with original ones". So I've send some message on ebay to the people who bought aftermarket,,,some of them are disapointed because some aftermarket they bought stop at 14khz, but some are really happy with aftermarket, but as they say they use them to make parties, so don't need excellent sound.

Mr. Widget
12-21-2008, 11:23 AM
Because, in some applications, it doesn't matter, as long as they make VHF sound.... :yes:Yeah, like in the closet with the power turned off. :rotfl:


Merry Christmas Zilch! :)


Widget

speakerdave
12-21-2008, 11:36 AM
Because, in some applications, it doesn't matter, as long as they make VHF sound.... :yes:

Yeah, in fact the general theory of sound reinforcement the way it is practiced in far too many places, is the more distortion the better, since it sounds louder.

alskinner
12-21-2008, 12:00 PM
In my case I use JBL original replacement diaphragms and cones because.

1. In my DIY adventures, I need to know that the driver specifications are consistent. So that when the crossovers are designed, I don't have to constantly tweak them for every variance that may be in aftermarket components.

2. If the components are installed by a JBL service center, there is recourse if a defect is found.

3. Support for JBL so that hopefully they will continue to support the drivers I use.


Since being a young man I have always tried to live as one of my mantras a quote by John Ruskin:

“There is nothing in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and he who considers price only is that man's lawful prey.”


Regards
AL

robertbartsch
12-21-2008, 03:35 PM
So the diaphragm in the picture is ripped at the 12 o'clock position, therfor, it must be replaced.

Anyway, I would not use aftermarket parts.

andychris
12-21-2008, 11:50 PM
ok so I will not loose my time with aftermarket parts, I don't like to live with a doubting hifi system.

But I've got a last question, now I've learned that JBL makes 2 different diaphragms that are suitable for 2404, D8R075 and D16R2405, a guy can sell me a D8R075, but as I can read this one is made for 075 and 2402, so if I use it in my 2404, will my 2404 stop at 15khz or 21khz ?

Mr. Widget
12-21-2008, 11:55 PM
...so if I use it in my 2404, will my 2404 stop at 15khz or 21khz ?Probably somewhere in between. Just use the correct diaphragm. ;)


Widget

andychris
12-22-2008, 03:29 AM
Probably somewhere in between. Just use the correct diaphragm. ;)


Widget

yes I think so,,,,,,but what to think of aftermarket , Do they sound like D08R275 or D16D2405 ?

SMKSoundPro
12-22-2008, 09:31 PM
yes I think so,,,,,,but what to think of aftermarket , Do they sound like D08R275 or D16D2405 ?

Answer is: In my opinion, no. In someone else's opinion, yes.
Andychris, you are letting your pocketbook dictate your decision.

Happy Holidays.

Scotty.

link:

D16R2405 $122.00 2405, 2405H, 2404H, 2404H-1 (62504-02X)
see link:
http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Goes%20Into%20List/Goes%20Into%20List.pdf

Last picture is an aftermarket diaphragm I installed for a friend. He was more concerned about price. I have not heard from him since, so all must be okay.

andychris
01-11-2009, 05:47 AM
Answer is: In my opinion, no. In someone else's opinion, yes.
Andychris, you are letting your pocketbook dictate your decision.

Happy Holidays.

Scotty.

link:

D16R2405 $122.00 2405, 2405H, 2404H, 2404H-1 (62504-02X)
see link:
http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Goes%20Into%20List/Goes%20Into%20List.pdf

Last picture is an aftermarket diaphragm I installed for a friend. He was more concerned about price. I have not heard from him since, so all must be okay.




Hello
Tomorrow I will get my new diaphragms, and i would like to know that is that blu thing you arte using to mount the diaphragms, what is it ? and why do you use it ?
thanx

hjames
01-11-2009, 08:58 AM
Hello
Tomorrow I will get my new diaphragms, and i would like to know
what is that blue thing you are using to mount the diaphragms,
what is it ? and why do you use it ?
thanx

It look like its an older aluminum handled Utility knife aka Razorknife aka boxcutter??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_knife

speakerdave
01-11-2009, 09:45 AM
I just scanned the thread and missed it if someone mentioned JBL used both diaphragms in the 2404, calling the one with the 2402 diaphragm the 2404-1 and using it where the crossover need to be shifted lower as in the 4612.

scott fitlin
01-11-2009, 10:58 AM
IMHO, and I may get flamed, but, SO WHAT?, The ONLY phragms are original manufactuer parts! PERIOD!

I used Radians Al pragm for the JBL 2441, IT AINT AS GOOD! Different sound, yeah, but...................................

:applaud:

andychris
01-11-2009, 03:24 PM
It look like its an older aluminum handled Utility knife aka Razorknife aka boxcutter??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_knife

No I was speaking about the blue adhesif, why using adhesif on the diaphragms ,

Allanvh5150
01-11-2009, 03:47 PM
The blue stuff is tape to cover the gap to stop foreign material getting inside after the gap has been cleaned. You dont need to worry about this if your will be installing the new 'phragm straight away.:)

SMKSoundPro
01-11-2009, 11:04 PM
Yes, that is correct. The blue stuff is blue painter's tape to cover over the magnetic gap of the motor. It releases easily and leaves no residue. I just follow the lip of the diaphragm mounting area with a sharp blue knife, screw the horns back on and store them in a box for a later day.

I do not usually leave diaphrams in drivers in storage mode. All phragms are removed and labeled and stowed away.

Scotty.

andychris
01-13-2009, 11:35 AM
Hello
so today I received a pair of aluminium aftermarket diaphragms for my 2404, and here are the graphs I obtain. The black one in the S3100 alone, the blue one is the 2404 JBL, the green and red are 2404 aftermarket. My soft is not very well calibrated but I think it's enough to see the differences. I let you tell what you think..........

SMKSoundPro
01-13-2009, 03:09 PM
I see by the graph that the blue line (2404 JBL) does not exhibit the dip that the others do. The JBL and aftermarket diaphrams are really different.

It proves the collective point offered here: Use original JBL diaphrams to acheive the same results from your speakers that the JBL engineers designed and implemented.

case closed.

Scott.

andychris
01-14-2009, 04:55 AM
I've got another thing. The bue graph is the S3100 alone, the green one is the s3100+2404 aftermarket with 1 u condensator. Could you explain me why the graph is always ondulate like that ?

Robh3606
01-14-2009, 05:38 AM
It undjulates because of comb filtering between the two drivers. You should try using a steeper slope on the 2404. They have quite a bit of output all the way down to 4K or so.

Rob:)

Predrag Dukic
10-27-2012, 08:31 PM
"
Titanium is a "stronger" metal. Will take a pretty good pounding, but maybe not the best sounding.
Aluminum is very good sounding, but gets brittle and breaks over time and use.
Is it possible for JBL to use titanium diaphragms for the compression drivers for its stronger character for reliability and less failure at the expense of sound quality?
"

Exactly that: In Mechanical engineering it is known that duraluminum has a finite life; it breaks from fatigue, sooner or later. It is also more sensitive to corrosion than pure aluminum.

It is lighter than titanium, so equally stiff diaphragm (in plane direction - tangentially to the ring radiator cone or the c.driver dome ) is thicker than titanium.
Titanium, being thinner for the same weight per area, leads to flexural vibrations, and the last invented remedy to this problem are radial and cross-cross ribs on the titanium dias.
See the newest titanium drivers. They all have ribs. Ribs have the same function as waves in corrugated cardboard- increasing flexural stiffnes of a thin and floppy material.

Predrag Dukic
11-13-2012, 08:57 AM
Got my first 2404h s on friday. Two 2404h-1 and one 2404h. Diaphragms look exactly like those, left is H-1 and right is H
Underside bears date of manufacture and marking 2402 on H-1 dia.

Now, looking at them, I am sure that 2402 dia is NOT duraluminum.
It is also so shiny, polished as yours, only with silver rings, not gold color.
Since the date of manufacture is in '85, and should be heavily corroded by now,
I believe it is some other alloy, maybe even pure aluminum.

It makes sense, because 2402 is supposed to go lower in frequency, so maybe dural is too brittle for it.
I can also see ballpen trace on the outer AND inner edge of the dia.
Now seeing it for the first time with my own eyes, I realize that this trace in fact forms a halve-roll surround/suspension for this dia. lowering the Cms of the dia.

For me that mistery is solved.

Diaphragm v-shape is identical for both dias, the difference is only in the additional space/surface because the outer ring has larger hole, and inner ring has smaller outer diameter.
http://andychris.free.fr/DSC_67271.JPG[/QUOTE]

andychris
05-16-2014, 02:31 AM
Do you know if there is a difference when you use some 2405 diaphragms on 2402 tweeter ? It's more and more difficult to get some 2402 diaphragm that most of 2402 tweeters are mounted with 2405 diqphragms

Thanx

more10
05-16-2014, 02:36 PM
It will not reach as low as the original diaphragm. Maybe it reaches higher. Someone shurely has made a measurement of this.

1audiohack
05-16-2014, 02:47 PM
JBL made some 2402's with D16R2405 diaphragms and tagged them 2402-5.

In the "Ring Radiator Comparisons" thread near the end I posted pictures and measurements of a brand new one. Start at post 179.

Barry.

Allanvh5150
05-16-2014, 02:54 PM
As far as I know, putting a 2405 diaphragm into a 2402 is not possible. The phase plug can not clamp the diaphragm properly.

Allan.

Mr. Widget
05-17-2014, 08:18 AM
As far as I know, putting a 2405 diaphragm into a 2402 is not possible. The phase plug can not clamp the diaphragm properly.

Allan.No it is quite possible... see Barry's post above. JBL did do it and other people have done it as well.


Widget

Jose Maia
12-09-2015, 05:04 PM
Hello,




I own a pair of JBL L 65 B and a month ago the 077 tweeter stoped working.
I bought a aftermarket diaphragm for just US$ 30,00 and replace it.
It worth what I paid for. It sounds lower and does not have the cristal sound.

I decide to buy the original used tweeter that costs 10 times more because there are no more original diaphragm for sale.

Regards from Brazil.

1audiohack
12-09-2015, 06:04 PM
Hello Jose!

Welcome to Lansing Heritage.

The genuine JBL replacement diaphragm is part number D16R2405. JBL currently has 131 in stock.

Do you have a local JBL supplier or repair shop?

All the best,
Barry.

Jose Maia
12-21-2015, 12:53 PM
Hello Jose!

Welcome to Lansing Heritage.

The genuine JBL replacement diaphragm is part number D16R2405. JBL currently has 131 in stock.

Do you have a local JBL supplier or repair shop?

All the best,
Barry.


Hello,


No I dont't have here in my country.
Where I can find the original ?

Thanks

yggdrasil
12-22-2015, 02:38 AM
Maybe these guys is willing to help: http://www.simplyspeakers.com/jbl-speaker-repair.html