HARMAN group to discontinue service parts [Archive]

clmrt

12-15-2008, 10:20 PM

Our little $450M company's revenue is 1/3 service. This year the MFG sector has missed it's mark by 20%, triggering wage and hiring freezes, while Service has come through with record numbers.

There was a rumor that the company was going to sell the Service division - which upon hearing, several serious offers were made from within the company to buy it, as it is most profitable. Amazing how the greedy short-timer CEO wishes to make his mark - selling the Service arm for a huge addition to the bottom line, only to fall into a black hole the next year.

However, we build capital equipment, not $100 and up loudspeakers. I could see where JBL would discontinue service for the BB brands and the like, but professionals like to be able to have things serviced, I would imagine.

4313B

12-15-2008, 10:29 PM

If American companies continue to be so short sighted... they will all need bail outs.I think most people are in a state of denial... we aren't coming back from this... We are in the downward spiral here.

"This is an impressive crowd - the haves and the have-mores. Some people call you the elites; I call you my base."

Yep, it sure played out that way. :rotfl:

scott fitlin

12-15-2008, 10:44 PM

but professionals like to be able to have things serviced, I would imagine.My point exactly!

Because in hard, demanding pro use, things break sometimes. But IF I know that IF I break a woofer, and the only way to get the same device back into operation is to BUY an entirely NEW driver, THIS steers me to purchase other brands, that CAN be repaired!

Race cars break down, when they break, do they BUY a NEW race car, or REBUILD engine, etc?

I don't blow drivers often, but, occasionally, I blow a woofer, it's part of the cost of doing business.

If I blow 1 or 2 eighteens in a years time, I can live with this. IF I am blowing 4 eighteens a week, THEN I'm doing something wrong.

And, then, there are times, after a period of several years, I opt to recone woofers, even IF not blown. Suspensions don't last forever, under hard use, and even though not blown, lose their elasticity and springiness, no?

Maybe I'm missing something!

Allanvh5150

12-16-2008, 02:43 AM

FRAZIERHORN

12-16-2008, 03:32 AM

Scott,the product is a Harmon Kardon DCM-1000 media center.great unit when it worked.

4313B

12-16-2008, 04:27 AM

I've found that most H/K products are pretty good when they work. H/K has delt with the last three Receiver failures I've experienced with entire new units. This practice has been going on for quite awhile now.

You don't recone a damaged driver in a PT800, you provide Harman with the serial number of the PT800 and they send you a replacement 908Ti. You don't put a new diaphragm in a 435Be. You provide Harman with the serial number of the K2-S9800 it came out of and they ship you a new 435Be.

Note that all replacement drivers have a ninety day warranty. Harman doesn't do the five year warranty on Consumer drivers anymore. The few remaining over the counter drivers that JBL Pro sells do still come with the five year warranty. I was told a month ago that Pro was looking at doing away with their few remaining raw drivers as well.

The current state of affairs killed Project May by the way. No point in doing a Project that virtually no one can enjoy following and duplicating. And few people are willing to dump a ton of money into raw drivers, if they were even obtainable, that come with a 90 day warranty. Rumor has it that there was a brief moment when JBL thought Project May might increase sales of raw components in Japan but that was back when the Project first started and it evidently didn't last long. Several people have reported that the drivers are unobtainable even in Japan.

JBL was hard pressed to repair the one 1500AL that was damaged by a former forum member back then. All the spares had already been shipped to Japan for K2-S9800's. They literally had to piece it back together in the Lab and they were none too happy about having to do it. The second 1500AL that was damaged during shipping took well over a year to get replaced. Its replacement was also damaged during shipping (broken in half courtesy of UPS) and it took as long to get replaced. It's been no joy.

I pinpoint the beginning of the end when JBL moved Consumer to Woodbury. This year the latest round of firings of senior staff coupled with the move of manufacturing to Mexico has pretty much spoiled the whole experience for me personally.

scott fitlin

12-16-2008, 04:41 AM

I've found that most H/K products are pretty good when they work. H/K has delt with the last three Receiver failures I've experienced with entire new units. This practice has been going on for quite awhile now.

You don't recone a damaged driver in a PT800, you provide Harman with the serial number of the PT800 and they send you a replacement 908Ti. You don't put a new diaphragm in a 435Be. You provide Harman with the serial number of the K2-S9800 it came out of and they ship you a new 435Be.

Note that all replacement drivers have a ninety day warranty. Harman doesn't do the five year warranty on Consumer drivers anymore. The few remaining over the counter drivers that JBL Pro sells do still come with the five year warranty. I was told a month ago that Pro was looking at doing away with their few remaining raw drivers as well.Well, if one buys product, and it's defective, I kind of like the idea of NEW replacement as opposed to repairing that.

435be, probably better of recieving a replacement driver.

Doing away with raw drivers all together, well, I don't love that idea, OTOH, I know they want to sell complete systems too, Vertec and other complete packaged systems.

I dunno, just when I finally get into whats CURRENTLY happening, the world goes and gets NEWER on me again, SOMETIMES I SWEAR I MUST BE GETTING OLDER!

Can't wait for the day when I wake up, go to my kitchen, press a button, and get my Bacon, eggs, and home fries tablet, JUST LIKE GEORGE JETSON eats!

:dont-know

scott fitlin

12-16-2008, 04:50 AM

I've found that most H/K products are pretty good when they work. H/K has delt with the last three Receiver failures I've experienced with entire new units. This practice has been going on for quite awhile now.

You don't recone a damaged driver in a PT800, you provide Harman with the serial number of the PT800 and they send you a replacement 908Ti. You don't put a new diaphragm in a 435Be. You provide Harman with the serial number of the K2-S9800 it came out of and they ship you a new 435Be.

Note that all replacement drivers have a ninety day warranty. Harman doesn't do the five year warranty on Consumer drivers anymore. The few remaining over the counter drivers that JBL Pro sells do still come with the five year warranty. I was told a month ago that Pro was looking at doing away with their few remaining raw drivers as well.

The current state of affairs killed Project May by the way. No point in doing a Project that virtually no one can enjoy following and duplicating. And few people are willing to dump a ton of money into raw drivers, if they were even obtainable, that come with a 90 day warranty. Rumor has it that there was a brief moment when JBL thought Project May might increase sales of raw components in Japan but that was back when the Project first started and it evidently didn't last long. Several people have reported that the drivers are unobtainable even in Japan.

JBL was hard pressed to repair the one 1500AL that was damaged by a former forum member back then. All the spares had already been shipped to Japan for K2-S9800's. They literally had to piece it back together in the Lab and they were none too happy about having to do it. The second 1500AL that was damaged during shipping took well over a year to get replaced. Its replacement was also damaged during shipping (broken in half courtesy of UPS) and it took as long to get replaced. It's been no joy.I know, and I feel what you feel.

The new age, and our new technologies, they were supposed to improve our lives, and our world.

In some ways they have, in others I find maybe I didn't know what I had at the time!

But, no turning back, now.

scott fitlin

12-16-2008, 04:56 AM

But, then again, no matter what THEY do, I'll always find a way to be happy.

:D

4313B

12-16-2008, 05:39 AM

So when we need another earth, which will be in about ten years, we can just go get another one , right?Ten years might be a bit opimistic. If we start seeing larger and larger crop failures in the next few years then I suspect mass starvation will come first. Ten years out? I think if crop yields hold out that long we will be looking at armed conflict for remaining resources culminating in global war.

"Emerging Markets"? I love it! :rotfl: :applaud: :rotfl: There is nothing "emerging" except massive overpopulation, dramatically increased competition for all kinds of resources, the increased chance of pandemic disease, overwhelming social upheaval, etc., etc.

But, then again, no matter what THEY do, I'll always find a way to be happy.

:DMe too! :) My new foam surrounds should last ten years. I just hope the electric company does too. :D

JBLRaiser

12-16-2008, 06:57 AM

where the discontinuance of Harman service devolves into a rant on Bush, famine and world turmoil. Please, bring back an area to discuss these subjects or leave them out of the discussion of audio product and service availability. It isn't anything more than the evolution of business, which is a good thing because it opens opportunities for smaller businesses to step in. GPA is a result of products and services being discontinued. Come on down south where we are opening a new Kia plant at relatively high wages, yet almost half of what the big three pay. Georgia is the largest state east of the Mississippi, yet has a small population. Not as beautiful as California, but we do have a constitutionally MANDATED balanced budget.:p

4313B

12-16-2008, 07:10 AM

Come on down south where we are opening a new Kia plant at relatively high wages, yet almost half of what the big three pay.I don't think anyone is interested in making half of what the big three pay. I think everyone is interested in making what the people in the Finance sector make. :yes: We don't want $80k jobs, we want $280k jobs complete with Government bailouts as necessary. Get with the program. :p

doodlebug

12-16-2008, 07:17 AM

I can fully understand that much of the consumer gear Harmon sells would be dealt with as wholesale replacements. The carrying costs of parts, shipping and labor to deal with it even at the board level would quickly outstrip the costs of buying wholesale replacement units coming off the same product lines as the originals. This is one reason I got out of the computer repair biz years ago. Commodity items are not where the value lies these days.

OTOH, as an old JBL/McIntosh guy, though, I delight in the ability to replace individual components in simple yet fully functional designs of years gone by when I still had a rotary phone in the hallway of the house I rented close to my college campus. There's plenty of value still in these old components but I am leery of the day when I can't get a diaphram for my JBLs.

I do agree that it would be good for Harmon/JBL to spin off the old gear support to a for-profit firm, in the Great Plains Audio business model, to keep spares coming based on demand.

McIntosh does this in-house on a partial basis for things like front panel glass and other parts where they tool up occasionally and make a production run based on orders coming into the parts department. They do, however, have problems getting some more obscure parts and have had quality problems with some of these 3rd party parts like volume control pots. I would expect them to be considering a similar setup as their product line these days is far larger than it was 40 years ago.

Cheers,

David

4313B

12-16-2008, 07:20 AM

There's plenty of value still in these old components but I am leery of the day when I can't get a diaphram for my JBLs.

I do agree that it would be good for Harmon/JBL to spin off the old gear support to a for-profit firm, in the Great Plains Audio business model, to keep spares coming based on demand. That would be nice.

Alot of these guys with JBL's really have no business owning them though. It's the champagne taste on a beer budget theme all over again. They find this stuff at the curb and then freak out when they discover what it actually costs to restore them. Some of them end up just duct taping stuff together. I'm mean really, they should just have PE send them a free catalogue and they should start ordering drivers or systems within their budgets.

BMWCCA

12-16-2008, 07:22 AM

But . . . if they send you a new replacement, don't some of the defective items end up as refurbs on Harman's eBay store? Maybe this really is a plan to encourage recycling. ;) :dont-know

JBLRaiser

12-16-2008, 07:24 AM

I don't think anyone is interested in making half of what the big three pay. I think everyone is interested in making what the people in the Finance sector make. :yes: We don't want $80k jobs, we want $280k jobs complete with Government bailouts as necessary. Get with the program. :p

one of choice. Work for less or look elsewhere.

4313B

12-16-2008, 07:35 AM

Work for less or look elsewhere.Definitely! :yes: Every CEO should read that quote and weep. The days of inane overcompensation for high echelon management are over! :applaud:

4313B

12-16-2008, 08:29 AM

But . . . if they send you a new replacement, don't some of the defective items end up as refurbs on Harman's eBay store? Maybe this really is a plan to encourage recycling. ;) :dont-knowI can't imagine them putting two and two together like that but anything is possible I guess. My perspective is that money and its relationship with the stockholders is the sole motivating factor for big business. I personally have had no problems with any refurbs, it's the first time stuff that seems to be the problem.

JBL 4645

12-16-2008, 08:49 AM

I would have to agree with Widget. The whole world is now modelled on a throw away society. So when we need another earth, which will be in about ten years, we can just go get another one , right? Quality does last forever if used correctly, within limits. The problem is that not many companies make quality anymore......:blink:

Bean conters should never be in charge!

Mass production!

I agree used within the technical tolerance limits of its design and it should give years of listening pleasure.

So what are we all, suppose to do now? Buy up all-spare parts like a pack of hungry dogs in feeding frenzy fighting over rare parts, (give me that cone or I’ll bust your chops in). :duel::die::smsex: I don’t believe I’m reading this.

:tree::window:

hjames

12-16-2008, 08:53 AM

What, you don't have a stock of spares already??

Doggone Walmart mentality!!

So what are we all suppose to do now? Buy up all-spare parts like a pack of hungry dogs in feeding frenzy fighting over rare parts, (give me that cone or I’ll bust your chops in)?

4313B

12-16-2008, 09:14 AM

So what are we all, suppose to do now?:dont-know

JBL 4645

12-16-2008, 10:33 AM

What, you don't have a stock of spares already??

Doggone Walmart mentality!!

No thanks I prefer to get it from the UK doesn’t the UK Harman have warehouse of spare parts?

:dont-know

I guess this is the beginning of the end. LOL.

edgewound

12-16-2008, 10:43 AM

I think most of this discussion is regarding the Consumer Group. Harman Pro Group makes far too much profit from service parts to dump that business....even a new CEO can see that.

Of course...there always the possibility of selling the division to India...they seem to get "it" in the long run.

The US Corporate business landscape has been sold out a couple of decades ago by Harvard. The salesman's initials are "M.B.A."

4313B

12-16-2008, 10:46 AM

I guess this is the beginning of the end. LOL.I really truly don't know. The end has been speculated on and bandied about for years. I think everyone is in agreement that it will end. But here and now? I just don't know and I'm not real fired up to start asking.

I do know that there have been considerable job cuts, morale is low and that manufacturing has moved to Mexico. But that's the story everywhere I go so probably no real indicators there.
Harman Pro Group makes far too much profit from service parts to dump that business....even a new CEO can see that.I've been told there is "concern" in that house too but whatever... :dont-know

The US Corporate business landscape has been sold out a couple of decades ago by Harvard. The salesman's initials are "M.B.A."You've obviously been talking to some of the same people I have. I think that quote is on internal email. :p

Titanium Dome

12-16-2008, 11:37 AM

When what you want/desire/need is no longer available, you just need to move on. No should to be a slave to a particular brand, era, way of thinking. That kind of dependency is a sure path to unhappiness.

Nothing JBL made was ever perfect, though there were some amazing achievements. There still are amazing things going on, and into the future many more amazing things will be done. But the habit of nurturing the past, wonderful as it is for a handful of enthusiasts, is a losing strategy.

Even the idea of sending a complete replacement in place of a part makes more and more sense as the competence of DIY repairers wanes. I know a guy who screwed up three perfectly good parts (not counting the original which he screwed up, too) due to his asinine behavior. Each time he complained of a product defect, when he was just a dumb shit. I finally installed the fourth one for him and told him, "That's how it's supposed to be installed, you dumba$$, just like the instructions read."

Titanium Dome

12-16-2008, 11:39 AM

I know a lot of MBAs and even mentored a few as interns in my nonprofit. They're not all bad. AAMOF, my GF has an MBA. Still, there's a lot of clueless clucks with advanced degrees, Harvard MBAs among them, who couldn't hold what we might call "a real job." One of the reasons I agree to mentor them is help them understand that a company is people, products, and services, not just numbers.

I must say I'm not unhappy to see so many of them have to eat it in the current downturn. Profit margins are cold comfort when you lose your job; numbers won't comfort you, take you in, feed you, and look after you like real working people do.

4345

12-16-2008, 02:21 PM

Unfortunately for Harman I think the business model might just be broken. If the downturn in the economy lasts long I would not be surprised to see them go Bankrupt. I don't think the future economy is going to support a company of their size and complexity. The market is too crowded in many of the products they make. It is even too cowded in their own company. Too many products that do the same thing. This will kill profits.

They may have to sell of divisions and seriously downsize. They may not be able to do it quick enough or sell the assets fast enough for a decent price. They might not think things are as bad as they are. If that is true, they might dig themselves into a deeper hole. Business is very bad right now in consumer products and the car business is even worse.

I wish them well, but this is not going to be pretty in my opinion.

robertbartsch

12-16-2008, 02:46 PM

I thought I read somewhere that Harman was supposed to be acquired by a private equity firm but the deal was cancelled as a result of issues with financing (e.g., the credit crunch). I thought I also read that the Harman founder - now in his 90s hired a replacement CEO.

Based on >10 years of dealing with PE firms that suck the life from acqusition targets, we should all be thankful of this deal-gone-bust.

So does the "no service" decision surprise me - NOT IN THE LEAST!

Not to defend the JBL decision, but people who decide these things often consider these issues:

1. Lost sales on new stuff if the old stuff is continually serviced and lives on forever...

2. Labor costs for repair techs are significant, particularly, if they are not incurred in Asia (communist China) and this decision will likely reduce these costs for Harmon,

3. Materials cost for service parts inventory is "capital" that is tied up sitting in a warehouse with no financial returns.

4. Inventory - Reduced cost for the number of units that need to be held in inventory (if a 2225 is damaged from an original defect just send the customer the current model 2226 instead of fixing the old one.)

JBLRaiser

12-16-2008, 02:55 PM

robertbartsch

12-16-2008, 03:03 PM

The practical implication of this decision is that vintage JBL drivers will likely decline in value if OEM replacement parts are no longer available.

I have a couple of legacy systems and several systems with new design drivers. Frankly IMO, the new stuff is superior to the vintage stuff in every way.

Some would argue that this is progress!

On the dowside, I hate cheap throw-away stuff - I bought a leather coach from communist China this year and the stuffing is collapsing in the seats which pisses me off!

I hope the Harmon "kill the service" decision does not result in other steeps to cheap'n the manufacturing process.

I suppose it is only a matter of time before JBL ends up like ALTEC - YIKES!

clmrt

12-16-2008, 07:32 PM

1. Lost sales on new stuff if the old stuff is continually serviced and lives on forever...

2. Labor costs for repair techs are significant, particularly, if they are not incurred in Asia (communist China) and this decision will likely reduce these costs for Harmon,

3. Materials cost for service parts inventory is "capital" that is tied up sitting in a warehouse with no financial returns.

4. Inventory - Reduced cost for the number of units that need to be held in inventory (if a 2225 is damaged from an original defect just send the customer the current model 2226 instead of fixing the old one.)

1. "Turn the Base". If you make it too painful for legacy system owners, they may hold a grudge and go with your competitor. Some owners may not have the capital to invest, or prefer to maintain for personal reasons.

2. Cost should be rolled into margin, overhead and burden. If the invoice isn't enough to support that, then...

3. True. Service parts aren't free, but they are profitable. In-house production capabilities mean you can setup and produce smaller runs with minimal costs incurred. Whip out a few months' worth of driver cones and sell them for a handsome margin. As soon as something stops turning, fire sale it and start taking backorders.

4. Obsolete and supercede as necessary, sure. Sometimes, if possible, I'd like to see a reissue of the original...oh, say, LE20 - maybe a run of 1000 pieces? Not that I'd buy any, but I can imagine they'd sell out to collectors and hobbyists, and would give JBL a reputation as one of the companies out there that you can look to for exciting methods of customer support.

1audiohack

12-16-2008, 07:43 PM

All this looks like a business opportunity for a cottage industry to me.

Don C

12-17-2008, 08:18 AM

It's Harman, not Harmon.

Doc Mark

12-17-2008, 09:18 AM

I got a call from a rep this morning about a repair under warranty that they were handling and was informed that Harman is going to send a new replacement-no repairs-brand new!.that was a surprize!I was told that rumor has it that Harmon is no longer investing in service/service parts,once the stock on hand is sold that's it.has anyone heard or know this to be true?

Greetings, All,

A couple of years ago, our H/K CD player, which we'd only purchased a short time before, failed, and when contacted about getting a warranty repair, I was told to send the entire unit in. They sent us a brand new one, immedicately, which has worked well ever since. We have another H/K CD "changer" that also took a dump, after quite a few years of solid service. I took it to a "local" H/K service center, for repair, but the cost of doing so was more than buying a new unit! So, that's what we did. I still have the old one, down in the Hobbit Hole, and would love to get it repaired for a fair price, someday. Might be out of luck, though.... Take care, and God Bless!!

Every Good Wish,
Doc (who, along with Sweet Bride, is very much enjoying our first huge snowfall of the season!! It's going to be a White Christmas this year!!) :window::xmas:

4313B

12-17-2008, 12:07 PM

Doggone Walmart mentality!!"What's Wal-Mart? Do they like make walls there?"

hjames

12-17-2008, 12:14 PM

"What's Wal-Mart? Do they like make walls there?"

WallieWorld by another name would still be as fleet ...
or would it flush you like Fleet?
or something ...

Sam Walton has passed, but the Joy lives on ...

bigyank

12-17-2008, 12:49 PM

All this looks like a business opportunity for a cottage industry to me.

P Audio loudspeakers is already trying this with 18" drivers which tout themselves as:

"Copy of JBL 2241H"

Maybe one of these companies will actually get it right. :D
As for another GPA, I don't see that happening unless someone buys up JBL after Harman is sold off and breaks JBL up for $$$.:blink:

Yank

robertbartsch

12-17-2008, 01:03 PM

....someone above suggested that if JBL failed to service old legacy systems, the customers would get mad and use a competitor.

I'm not aware of ANY competitors to JBL. Altec Lansing was a competitor at one point but they got destroyed by a private equity firm who sucked their life blood out about 10 years ago. Even before this, Altec seemed to mis-judge the market often, so they may have been doomed, anyway.

I don't consider these brands competitors since their products blow:

1. Peaved (Peavy)
2. Kliphorn
3. Electroshock(E-voice)
4. Radon (Radian)
5. Blooze (Bose)

Apparently, Harman has a ton of other electronic businesses - mostly in the consumer sector, which are most likely now acting as an ancor around the neck of the JBL buisiness and Harman as a whole.

I suppose the best we could hope for is for the other businesses to crap out, be disposed of and for the JBL business to survive as an independent company.

This will be a long shot, however, - kinda like trying to get your money back from Bernard Madoff - the suspected Ponzi scheme artist who may have ripped off $50 billion from inocent investors!

scott fitlin

12-17-2008, 02:02 PM

JBL Pro is great, there's alot of JBL Pro in use, both current product, and some legacy products, too.

But there is also ALOT of competition in the pro market too. And there are other brands of excellent products that DO NOT suck, as well.

JBL makes some really excellent stuff, no doubt, but there Are other manufacturers that also make excellent stuff.

duaneage

12-17-2008, 09:32 PM

scott fitlin

12-17-2008, 10:00 PM

Scotty makes a valid point. There are other choices for top notch components, hell some might even be better than JBL, so we can move on to different drivers eventually.

Of course there would be no point in bringing that discussion to a JBL site.

I've used Vifa, Dayton, Pioneer, seas, scan speak, eton, Audax and a host of other drivers before. Some were good, some bad and a few great.

When the bell rings for the last time we'll move on.Thanks Duane, and i agree with you as well. Although, the last thing i want to see is JBL disappearing. I LIKE JBL SOUND!

And i am not really worried about JBL failing either. And here's why, historically, in bad times, especially times of financial difficulties, people seek entertainment, and feel better avenues of fun and mental getaway.

If our economy takes a REALLY serious dive, music will still be made, movies, and shows, and concerts will still be attended. So will amusement parks, and picnic grounds. What changes will be people staying close to home, instead of trips across the country or trans atlantic trips, local trips become popular. A budget trip to the local movies, amusement park, or small concerts will have attendance.

Simply put, people may spend less money on entertainment, but still seek it, we have to. And as long as their is music, and a concert somewhere so to will there be an audio system along with it. OK, maybe a souind company will have to hold on to their system longer than they do now. They won't be able to afford total system changeovers every 2 years, but, still, someone will sing a song, and need a mic, and etc!

During hard times, people still make music, feel better, happy music, or the blues to sing about hardships. Movies are still made, during the depression, comedies were extrememly popular. People seek out less expensive entertainment, but, still seek it nonetheless. And if we fall on hard times now, or in the near and far future, it will be no different. People NEED to go out, and enjoy, in some way. It is like a pressure release valve.

Things will change, yes! And we would have to tighten our belts, and possibly not go out as much, but, we still will, and music and audio can survive.

Titanium Dome

12-17-2008, 11:21 PM

For those of you looking for a bright spot, recent news:

http://www.harman.com/press/default.aspx

4313B

12-18-2008, 08:29 AM

The practical implication of this decision is that vintage JBL drivers will likely decline in value if OEM replacement parts are no longer available.Who cares? We've got a bunch of skanks running around SoCal doing their best to devalue current product as well. Devalue it all.
I have a couple of legacy systems and several systems with new design drivers. Frankly IMO, the new stuff is superior to the vintage stuff in every way.True but I suspect the longevity is still in the legacy product. I do not see JBL keeping 1500AL replacements around for 30 years.
I suppose it is only a matter of time before JBL ends up like ALTEC - YIKES!I think it's pretty amazing that it has all lasted this long.

This will be a long shot, however, - kinda like trying to get your money back from Bernard Madoff - the suspected Ponzi scheme artist who may have ripped off $50 billion from inocent investors!Isn't it funny how everyone locks on to one individual? Like he's the only corrupt bastard running lose in our country today? :rotfl: This country is chock full of skanks like him. :p

cvengr

12-18-2008, 08:47 AM

If our economy takes a REALLY serious dive, music will still be made, movies, and shows, and concerts will still be attended. So will amusement parks, and picnic grounds. What changes will be people staying close to home, instead of trips across the country or trans atlantic trips, local trips become popular. A budget trip to the local movies, amusement park, or small concerts will have attendance.

...During hard times, people still make music, feel better, happy music, or the blues to sing about hardships. Movies are still made, during the depression, comedies were extrememly popular. People seek out less expensive entertainment, but, still seek it nonetheless. And if we fall on hard times now, or in the near and far future, it will be no different. People NEED to go out, and enjoy, in some way. It is like a pressure release valve.

...

JBL rebuilds and this community has been a catharsis for my edification and it is frustrating to observe steps taken in this industry which also financially succeed at the detriment of the components of its success.

Somebody mentioned at least we still have electrical power. That industry faces similar disruption. Did you know that after Hurricane Ike, all three major transformer manufacturers shut down manufacturing for 2-3 weeks? The entire xformer market in the US today has a 30 wk wait for a new delivery.

I've noticed in the construction industry, we've become an off the shelf market. It is getting more difficult to find craftsmen/tradesmen who actually know how to build something, unless it is purchased 'off-the-shelf'.

Even general contractors and the more emerging Design-Build contracting mechanisms rarely if ever produce innovative engineering design. Instead engineering and design has been categorized as a high cost service and constrained to minimal use.

Supply systems have been slowly remolded into large oligopolies and the instinct of ownership has been slowly eroded into consumer procurement. Today, if somebody decides they don't want their purchase, they just take it back and it is processed with no questions asked with a new item.

IMHO, as soon as the oligopolies are fully controlled by the elite, it will take very little for the wheel to turn with no consideration given to consumer interests. The new buzzword might become "Buyer Beware", and no returns accepted for a litany of reasons.

The means of production might have been controlled to isolate competition in economic power, while economies might become dynamically controlled for political power.

Back to the quote. I've noticed that almost every transducer manufacturer of midrange drivers are producing assemblies which drive upwards to the 200,000 Hz range. The ultrasonic speaker concept is likely to be promoted for mass assemblies and localized sound perception.

Musicians and artists who perceive the difference between full spectrum reproduction/production audio are decreasing in numbers. Something I didn't expect to happen is that younger generations of music listeners don't appear to appreciate the full spectrum audio as older generations. Perhaps it is associated with a greater percentage of older generation audiophiles having some background in music production of any sort without electronic synthesis.

It's been said that music soothes the soul. There is ongoing research into how to communicate with the interior neurological aural processing without audible frequencies outside the human body. This also touches upon mental and spiritual perceptions and processing. Just as music may sooth the soul, sound may be used as a cacophony to interrupt thinking, distract focus, and hesitate opposing volition.

There might be an incredibly strong desire in the future for politicians to control sound reproduction as a mechanism to influence political force.

Beware the Ipods of March. :007:/tin foil hat

robertbartsch

12-18-2008, 09:00 AM

I suppose Harman could always turn themselves into a bank holding company and request some TARP money from Henry Paulson and Ben Bernanke! I have lots of clients that are doing this now.

Anyway, Yes - I agree that music, movies and concerts will be on-going during the depression.

People will also drive cars around but that does not preclude certain auto companies from becoming insolvent and unable to pay their debts as they become due.

Therefor, I suggest that everyone here go out and buy a few new JBL Professional Series drivers to keep the legacy alive.

robertbartsch

12-18-2008, 09:07 AM

.....I went to my company Christmas party last night in NYC. The attendance was 3,000!

Anyway, we had a 4-piece band with a EV sound reproduction system comprised of six speakers on poles. I believe these contained 12inch woofers and compression drivers and horns for the mid/highs.

Anyway, it was the worst sounding system I ever heard. My wife and I left early.

4313B

12-18-2008, 09:09 AM

Therefor, I suggest that everyone here go out and buy a few new JBL Professional Series drivers to keep the legacy alive.Are you serious? :p

Anyway, we had a 4-piece band with a EV sound reproduction system comprised of six speakers on poles. Anyway, it was the worst sounding system I ever heard. My wife and I left early.:rotfl:

4313B

12-18-2008, 09:49 AM

Work for less or look elsewhere.I had to come back to this after reading this today...

E. Stanley O’Neal, the former chief executive of Merrill Lynch, was paid $46 million in 2006, $18.5 million of it in cash.

A 20-something analyst with a base salary of $130,000 collected a bonus of $250,000. And a 30-something trader with a $180,000 salary got $5 million.

While bonuses are expected to be half of what they were a year ago, some bankers could still collect millions of dollars.

For Wall Street, much of this decade represented a new Gilded Age. Salaries were merely play money — a pittance compared to bonuses. Bonus season became an annual celebration of the riches to be had in the markets.

The bonanza redefined success for an entire generation. Graduates of top universities sought their fortunes in banking, rather than in careers like medicine, engineering or teaching. Wall Street worked its rookies hard, but it held out the promise of rich rewards. In college dorms, tales of 30-year-olds pulling down $5 million a year were legion.

On Wall Street, the first goal was to make “a buck” — a million dollars.

Pay was tied to profit, and profit to the easy, borrowed money that could be invested in markets like mortgage securities. As the financial industry’s role in the economy grew, workers’ pay ballooned, leaping sixfold since 1975, nearly twice as much as the increase in pay for the average American worker.

And people have the gall to bitch about a UAW worker? They can **** off is what they can do.

robertbartsch

12-18-2008, 12:07 PM

I just spoke to a lady who is a licensed JBL dealer who sold me some much needed OEM 075 diaphragms. She was shocked to learn that Harman will no longer service drivers. She told me that she beleived Harman would not do this since they sent her a new price list last July!

I live in NY and have been a CPA in public practice for 28 years. Anyway, historically, those rich people in the financial services industries contributed 25% of the income tax revenues in the state of NY and now they are on the street. Consequently, my NY taxes will be doubled soon - UHG!

I don't dislike the UAW but if their contract results in salary and benefits of $80 per hour and the Japanese competition is paying only $40, a TARP bailout by Bush#2 is not going to "fix" this problem.

scott fitlin

12-18-2008, 12:08 PM

edgewound

12-18-2008, 03:18 PM

I don't dislike the UAW but if their contract results in salary and benefits of $80 per hour and the Japanese competition is paying only $40, a TARP bailout by Bush#2 is not going to "fix" this problem.

We can't equate the Madoff's of the world on Wall Street to the UAW. However...lets get the facts straight on current UAW costs. It's the retirees, et.al., that are the burden. A ratio of 4:1 retirees to active workers The current tiers of labor at GM is something like $14-$28 before benefits.

http://www.uaw.org/barg/07fact/fact02.php

I don't like unions...never have in my lifetime. They stifle the real worker who likes to get things done.

But...lets look at the fairness with which our US auto makers are being treated when it comes to foreign competitors. The Southern states are literally giving away the farm to foreign competition when it comes to incentives to build new plants. Tax concessions everywhere just to get them built and bring new jobs. KIA is turning Alabama Korean...of course, there is a connection to Ford with Kia unless that has change recently.

It seems a-productive to me to let foreign manufacturers come in and thrive while the US companies are left to die because of the rotting fruit still hanging from the tree. The UAW is being given billions from the US auto makers to to administer their own retirees benefits and get them off the backs of the Big 3. This phase out should be complete by 2010-11

Maybe this will help. Last I checked, the Big 3 still make some great vehicles, and the rest of the auto industry is hurting bigtime too. Toyota just halted development of a new US plant due to plummeting sales.

I haven't heard of Harman stopping support of the legacy components so let's please stop the rumor mill until facts are in.

Thank you.

4313B

12-18-2008, 03:34 PM

It's the retirees, et.al., that are the burden.Logan's Run.

I don't like unions...never have in my lifetime.I'm glad you qualified that. :p I vehemently oppose slave labor and support organized labor, providing there is a mechanisim in place to somehow prevent organized labor from becoming as corrupt as the forces it squares off against. I personally have never been a member of any union but I definitely empathize with their theoretical purpose.
I haven't heard of Harman stopping support of the legacy components so let's please stop the rumor mill until facts are in.I think it started with a JBL Rep? I'm not convinced anyone really cares either way though. Whatever happens someone will probably step up to the plate and fill the void.

robertbartsch

12-18-2008, 03:50 PM

....If Harman has decided to not repair drivers under a standard 5-year warranty, but to rather replace any factory defective driver with a new unit, why would they continue to manufacture legacy re-cones, diaphragms, and other stuff necessary to keep legacy equipment in working repair?

Since I assume that the production runs of legacy parts are probably large, one could assume that a considerable amount of inventory parts remain in their warehouses. If that is the case, this stuff is likely to last for some time to come.

4313B

12-18-2008, 04:01 PM

Soylent green?

:blink:Dunno! Maybe...

Titanium Dome

12-18-2008, 04:38 PM

At least Sol's light classical death song was played over JBLs. I believe Soylent is a Harman International company.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbJTBBoDFH0

Titanium Dome

12-18-2008, 04:41 PM

Oh sorry, that's Soundcraft®, not Soylent at all.

JBLRaiser

12-18-2008, 05:27 PM

I had to come back to this after reading this today...

E. Stanley O’Neal, the former chief executive of Merrill Lynch, was paid $46 million in 2006, $18.5 million of it in cash.

A 20-something analyst with a base salary of $130,000 collected a bonus of $250,000. And a 30-something trader with a $180,000 salary got $5 million.

While bonuses are expected to be half of what they were a year ago, some bankers could still collect millions of dollars.

For Wall Street, much of this decade represented a new Gilded Age. Salaries were merely play money — a pittance compared to bonuses. Bonus season became an annual celebration of the riches to be had in the markets.

The bonanza redefined success for an entire generation. Graduates of top universities sought their fortunes in banking, rather than in careers like medicine, engineering or teaching. Wall Street worked its rookies hard, but it held out the promise of rich rewards. In college dorms, tales of 30-year-olds pulling down $5 million a year were legion.

On Wall Street, the first goal was to make “a buck” — a million dollars.

Pay was tied to profit, and profit to the easy, borrowed money that could be invested in markets like mortgage securities. As the financial industry’s role in the economy grew, workers’ pay ballooned, leaping sixfold since 1975, nearly twice as much as the increase in pay for the average American worker.

And people have the gall to bitch about a UAW worker? They can **** off is what they can do.

they are both overpaid and I wouldn't agree with bailing either out.

scott fitlin

12-18-2008, 06:34 PM

Oh sorry, that's Soundcraft®, not Soylent at all.:applaud:

Ian Mackenzie

12-19-2008, 05:22 AM

I wonder what will become of recone (JBL) kits if this is a trend.

100AMPFUSE

12-19-2008, 08:37 AM

Ian,over the years havent they(JBL)do just that- NOLONGER AVAILABLE, Im stating to think the same thing.I have a few drivers that cone kits are nolonger available.I did waste my $$ on aftermarket kits but they didnt sound anything like the originals.maybe I should start using them for doorstops/paper weighs. -:biting:

4313B

12-19-2008, 08:58 AM

I wonder what will become of recone (JBL) kits if this is a trend.Evidently as long as people are buying them they continue to be run. Rumor is that they are going to run a bunch of LE14H-1 kits here in the next month or two. I think those have been out of stock forever.

Mr. Widget

12-19-2008, 11:01 AM

Evidently as long as people are buying them they continue to be run. Rumor is that they are going to run a bunch of LE14H-1 kits here in the next month or two. I think those have been out of stock forever.From what I have been told, once they get a certain number of requests for any of these vintage woofers they will do a special run... in the past they have even run the 150-4C kits. People really need to have their factory authorized repair shop place orders for the NLA kits and they can eventually reappear.

Widget

4313B

12-19-2008, 11:43 AM

Yep.

C8R2203's and C8RLE59's are gone forever though and I need some! I guess JBL didn't make enough 124A's, 124H's, 2203A's and 2203H's as well as 4315 systems to warrant it. LE5-9 derivatives are everywhere. I guess someone finally decided C8RLE510 kits were "good enough".

People really need to have their factory authorized repair shop place orders for the NLA kits and they can eventually reappear.Yeah, fortunately those skanks in L.A. can't pilfer those too or there would be no Service Centers anymore. :p

Ian Mackenzie

12-19-2008, 12:21 PM

Thanks for the heads up.

Quite a while back I spoke to a tech at Jands (one of JBLs bigger International agents) and they said sometimes they can get drivers made to special order as but I did not ask the lead time.

(Perhaps I should order some 2245 kits and put them on ice.)

Titanium Dome

12-19-2008, 01:01 PM

I went to the closest authorized JBL repair center for something, which of course wasn't available. I asked if he could order it, and he didn't appear interested. But I persisted and after bugging him enough he agreed to order it just to get me out of his shop.

Let's see if it shows up. He said "Five days."

Titanium Dome

12-19-2008, 01:03 PM

Hi, Al!

robertbartsch

12-19-2008, 05:55 PM

If you are the Harman CEO trying to heal an ailing business, you wack the units with the low margins.

I have to believe that manufacturing legacy repair items like voice coils, cones, diaphragms for 30-year old products is a LOW margin business, in part, because the volumes are not big and the inventory must stay in the warehouse for long periods.

...basically, killing the legacy business is a no-brainer to me.

Anyway, I never understood the market values of legacy systems when you compare their relative performance to the newer designs. Not much value to me!

Someone above posted a positive analyst review of Harman that was written by Standard & Poors. I have to barf here since these were the clowns that told us that sub-prime mortgage-backed securities were relatively risk free.

clmrt

12-19-2008, 06:17 PM

From what I have been told, once they get a certain number of requests for any of these vintage woofers they will do a special run... in the past they have even run the 150-4C kits. People really need to have their factory authorized repair shop place orders for the NLA kits and they can eventually reappear.

Widget

Bingo. Set a minimum backlog before tooling commences. We're bringing in 5-axis CNC so we can knock out one-piece runs for our legacy stuff - we'll just charge through the nose to get the margins.

Mr. Widget

12-19-2008, 07:25 PM

If you are the Harman CEO trying to heal an ailing business, you wack the units with the low margins.

I have to believe that manufacturing legacy repair items like voice coils, cones, diaphragms for 30-year old products is a LOW margin business, in part, because the volumes are not big and the inventory must stay in the warehouse for long periods.

...basically, killing the legacy business is a no-brainer to me.From the narrowly focused, this quarter mentality of accountants and MBAs, you are correct... and from a larger more holistic approach you are wrong. It is terribly wasteful to grind up and recycle products that can be easily repaired and continue to offer service. It is also good for the brand to keep legacy product in desirable condition and acknowledge your heritage. Mercedes has factory reconditioned vintage cars... I am sure it isn't a real money maker, but it helps tell their story... "quality for today and tomorrow based on a sound history"... and "we'll be there for you in the future", "it's OK to spend 60 grand on these speakers, you'll be able to enjoy them the rest of your life."

Widget

4345

12-19-2008, 07:48 PM

I think not repairing the legacy systems is just a sign of all the wrong things JBL has done over the last several years. The product line is so large now, it is almost impossible to keep parts for every product. The line from 1946 - 1980 was very simple compared to today.

Sure things have changed, but I think JBL's strength was their basic drivers and great system designs. They have invested so much money in oddball speakers and drivers. All the home systems like Revel, Levinson, etc. can't be profitable. I am sure they would have faired much better with an E-120, 4312 and 375 style driver in their line.

It was easy for the managment to overlook these things and create money losing categories as long as pro and autos made enough to offset it. Now I think things have changed. The economy is different this time. I don't think we are going to bounce back so quickly and the money losers will have to go. I think the slowdown could be so severe and Harman's expansion so great they may not be able to contract quickly and intelligently enough.

I trust S & P, like I trusted the analysts who encouaged me to buy Washington Mutual stock.

I wish them well.

scott fitlin

12-20-2008, 07:24 AM

NO, I must disagree, go back and LOOK at the 1980 product line, more individual drivers and components available than now.

And FWIW, Legacy product still in operation some of it 30 years or more beyond certain products time of being current, HEY, thats TESTAMENT to JBL. But SELLING new JBL IS the order of the day!

And I KNOW there's MUCH JBL Pro in use, so parts for that stuff will be around, I think!

Have a MERRY XMAS!, Don't mope to much.

:D

BMWCCA

12-20-2008, 08:36 AM

If you don't mind yet another automotive analogy from me (too late!); BMW, Mercedes, and Porsche all have heritage divisions dedicated to helping owners keep the heritage and legacy vehicles running and looking good. It's good policy, it keeps their owners recommending and buying the brand, and it's either paying for itself in parts and restoration business (yep, they do customer work, too) or else the goodwill and publicity value make up for any loss in the operation.

They didn't always do this. Porsche was first, but then their product line was always simple in those days with basically one base product at a time for the first two decades, and only recently has it strayed significantly. M-B was next and went into the business big-time with their own museum and restoration shops. BMW learned the hard way that picking up after ignoring legacy products meant they'd thrown out tooling and parts and had to start from scratch and rely on outside suppliers. But it's up and running now in its second iteration as BMW Classic (was Mobile Tradition) with a very public display of recent restorations to market the programs such as building a '72 2002tii from scratch with mostly their own parts in a workshop in a glass box while viewed by the public at the Olympic Park in Munich while the nearby BMW museum was closed for renovation:

http://cache.jalopnik.com/cars/images/bmw_2002_munich.jpg

It's a good model for JBL to follow. Maybe they should make a Paragon from scratch in public view using all drivers supplied by the new JBL Heritage division? Nice way to publicize the introduction of that new LS line of speakers in the US . . . next month. ;)

robertbartsch

12-22-2008, 10:07 AM

As a CPA and an MBA, I never said I supported the decision to bag the JBL legacy parts manufacture and distribution business. I merely indicated that, from a CEO's perspective, it is a no-brainer decision.

Anyway, the legacy divisions at Benz, BMW, Porsche, and GM's Corvette divisions are very cool and this form of marketing goes alone way to strengthen the brand.

Ask yourself this, however: When was the last time Mercedes, BMW, Porsche, or Corvette manufactured replacement engine blocks, transmissions, fenders or other unique but necessary replacement parts for their 40-year-old legacy cars?

Hey, I owned a 1970 numbers matching big-block 454 Corvettte for many years. If this pup cracked an engine block or scattered the tranny, however, you no longer owned a matching numbers car!

cooky1257

12-22-2008, 11:04 AM

Well made, high spec, high quality, with good after sales support and priced accordingly. Lose any of the above and your business model and future prospects ain't worth shit.

Mr. Widget

12-22-2008, 11:19 AM

I merely indicated that, from a CEO's perspective, it is a no-brainer decision.I guess that was my point. The good folks running our bigger companies need to stop making no brainer decisions and start using their brains. (You know, that often used saying that really is rarely followed, "thinking outside of the box.")

Widget

Allanvh5150

12-22-2008, 11:54 AM

There is huge money to be made in spare parts if you sell plenty of them. Just look at the auto makers and check how much it would cost you to build a car from parts! JBL is no different, your typical recone kit consists of $5 worth of paper, a couple of bucks of wire, some foam and glue and a big kickass box to ship it in. Cost to you?
I can't see JBL letting their legacy go by the by. I think that maybe they will drop spears for the cheapo home and auto stuff but I doubt very much that when time comes to recone your Everest that you wont be able to get kits for them.
Maybe when hell freezes over but it would be a sad day for all if the bean counters made that decision.:)

steveh

12-22-2008, 11:55 AM

robertbartsch

12-22-2008, 12:24 PM

I can't think of a single modern-day manufacturer who has a business policy that their products should never wear out and that customers should have continued service and parts by the manufacturer forever.

I bought a coffee-maker for $100 yesterday. I pulled it out of the box and poured water into it. The water leaked out and onto the floor! This was a defective unit made in communist China! I'm lucky if the new replacement unit will last one year.

I don't have any gripes about eliminating JBL legacy spare parts; as a compremise to its strong customer base, however, maybe they should continue making spare parts for anything made during the last 5 years.

Look, I suppose if your old L-100 woofer takes a dump, it is probably time to invest in a NEW JBL Pro Series replacement system, anyway!

Hey, why ride around in an old 70 big block Corvette when you can have a new 2009 Z07? GM needs the "new" business; right?

As far as shipping our manufacturing jobs to Mexico, you can thank Billy Clinton for that!

BMWCCA

12-23-2008, 08:02 AM

Ask yourself this, however: When was the last time Mercedes, BMW, Porsche, or Corvette manufactured replacement engine blocks, transmissions, fenders or other unique but necessary replacement parts for their 40-year-old legacy cars?

Hey, I owned a 1970 numbers matching big-block 454 Corvettte for many years. If this pup cracked an engine block or scattered the tranny, however, you no longer owned a matching numbers car!If matching numbers is your thing, no remanufactured major component will do unless you forge the numbers on the new parts. But we're talking about speakers. And we're not talking about matching-numbered Paragons, but keeping even the basic legacy speakers operating on a daily basis; not for Bloomington once a year, but to hear, listen to, and enjoy in our homes as some of us have been doing for over 50 years.

But, to answer your question using the brand I know best, BMW has fenders manufactured for some of their 40-year-old cars quite often. Front fenders for a '66 1600 are about $500, each. I bought several pairs when they were around $70 fifteen-years ago and put a pair in the trunk of each car I own. They are available today using the same parts books, part numbers, and distribution system as any part for any new BMW. Walk into your local dealer and order a set. No delivery charges, either. Some items are NLA, and some are just so expensive you'd better really want them. But they're available if you want them. It's not uncommon to see a 25-year-old BMW used as a daily drivers. I can buy the tiny oil filter for my '64 2-cyl BMW convertible from BMW but I have to pay nearly $30 for it. I can't get the gaskets and o-rings from BMW but I can get the filter. For my '70 4-cyl convertible I can get almost anything mechanical except some unique trim items unique to the convertible since they only made 1,682 of them over three years. But I can buy a new aluminum cylinder head direct from the original manufacturer for a pretty reasonable $500. I can no longer buy the block but that's like replacing woofer frames; you don't, you rebuild them. And i can buy the crankshaft and the pistons from BMW today. Nearly $800 for a crank and $200 each piston, but I can buy them.

And, more importantly, the automobile manufacturers realize how vitally important supporting legacy products is to marketing their new products. They invest in this "service" and most likely profit from it. But then this would require JBL to actually have a marketing plan for their new products here in the USA; something I've never been able to confirm. Oh yeah, and local dealers, too. If all they intend to sell us new is crap made elsewhere, there's really no point in showcasing legacy products because the legacy stuff would overshadow the current stuff. If the intent is to show growth, development, and progress based on original principles of wanting to be the best, they'd have to have a current product line that supported that premise and a marketing plan that could benefit from it. That's the difference between JBL and BMW/Mercedes/Porsche, none of which make their best stuff in Germany but sells it only in Japan. They'd insist that would be stupid and uneconomical and it would ignore their biggest market outside Germany—North America.

Local JBL dealers, showrooms where you can actually hear the current products, make everything they make available to the North American market, and continue to support the legacy products and use them to promote the JBL heritage. There'll always be some new startup brand, but there's only one JBL. Why not use that to their advantage?

bigyank

12-23-2008, 03:17 PM

I'm probably missing something here so just take my comments with a grain of salt. It seems as though Bill and company, at Great Plains Audio, have developed a business model that allows them to turn a profit and remain competitive, with the Altec line. No small feat in today's world. Why couldn't JBL license an approved entity to produce legacy product, piece parts, under license of JBL? If there is only one place to buy OEM parts, where are you going to go? Perhaps in such a facility, JBL parent company, could outsource repairs of current production to, number one, show the customer base and potential customer base, that JBL is committed and "in it for the long haul", and number two, take a step away from this bull_ _ it throwaway mentality in which we all live today. If Great Plains can do it with Altec, why couldn't it be done with JBL?

Maybe someone like this ebay seller?
http://cgi.ebay.com/FreeShip-Diaphragm-for-JBL-2425-2426-2427-2421-J-16-ohm_W0QQitemZ350130610787QQihZ022QQcategoryZ47092Q QtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262

Even states:
"This diaphragm will handle the same amount of power, and sounds the same as the original JBL diaphragms, guaranteed, or your money back."

:D

Yank

4345

12-23-2008, 10:40 PM

That is a great point and what they don't get at the top.

Ian Mackenzie

12-24-2008, 01:55 AM

I think its an exerciise in cost leadership and it makes sense with new equipment that fails under warranty.

Imagine the bottomline cost of running a service centre, wages, overheads, warehousing when the cost of replacement Ex Mexico or China makes the business case for Service a joke particular if the sales dont support the overall overheads period. Technology such as surface mount boards all but rules out servicing.

But this has nothing to do with maintaining vintage drivers and I sight numerous senior members who make a habit of using after market refoam kits and diaphragms to hopefully preserve their much loved woofers and compression drivers.

Then we have the whores who flog off drivers at below cost. Once they get a wiff of this they will probably ramp up their prices because the end user won't have assess to get drivers maintained under JBL trained techs if it comes to that.

But at this stage JBL appears to be continuing to maintain JBL diaphragms for legacy compression drivers to be available to end users.

In a broarder sense I am not sure of the ramifactions for Pro Array users who would need spares from time to time after the warranty period such as Motion Picture Houses.

Resumably they will end up replacing the whole module. In a wear and tear type of industry I imagine a cart blanche move from JBL might cause a more brand migration issues than they have already.

On a local front here its more of a dichotomy for legacy system for the Baby Boomer end users who will find it increasingly difficult to obtain vintage drivers in as new maintained condition for their vintage systems while they are unable to buy contemporary line extensions of the JBL legacy models locally which are only available from Japan like the 4348 and 4338.

That is the bit that stinks......:banghead:

My understanding is the warranty for that consumer stuff is only vaild within the country of purchase. So you are screwed on that score.

The above models are also prohibitively expensive to buy Ex Japan because of the Yen. Hence I came back empty handed with all but some nice brochures (which we intend to scan and put up on the site at some stage)

It should be noted that spare vintage drivers fetch premium prices on the street in Japan and its no surprise our man in Japan making lenses sources drivers for his reproductions from the USA. There are just more end users of JBL vintage gear in Japan than there is product.

I would not like to guess how many 4343's are in use in Japan. If I was going to retire it would make a tidy business living 6 months of the year there updating all those old systems.