L300 found a new home

[Croc999]

Greetings to everybody from the Holly Land :)

My name is Gennady (nickname Croc) and this week I got myself L300 loudspeakers:applaud:

For last 3 years I was listening with Klipsch La Scalas – which were moded by adding JBL 2404H tweeters, a simple enclosure bracing, xover refresh and going back to simplest xover layout (Type A).
Powered by El34 single ended amp and paired with REL Stadium sub they sounded very good:D

But when a good friend offered me to trade my being used very little Rogers LS3/5 monitors and Rogers AB1 subwoofers for pair of JBL L300 I got tempted and eventually accepted the offer.

So what did I get?
A pair with "Monitor L300" label s/n’s 22194+22195, not perfect but reasonable cosmetic condition, clear crystal tweeters (with a blue wire inside), reconed and refoamed woofers, grills with new fabric and not too bad condition frame, only one midrange lens (from T200), quite high plinths were added to raise L300 from the floor and reduce a bass boom.

La Scalas were moved to the back of room to free up the main spots for the Newcomers.

Impressions so far (comparing to my moded La Scalas of course)(I’m listening primary to jazz, with some classics, blues and rock):
- 9 watt is not enough…..

- my trusty HK Citation II was called to action to grab those beasts……
Tweeters are reaching higher, a bit more detailed.

- Midrange is clearer and more detailed.
More natural – I mean less colored.

- Bass is much lower.

- Cabinet resonance is rarely heard.

Now to the bad stuff :( :
- Dynamics, although is very good, still doesn’t reach La Scalas “explosive” dynamics. Especially in micro dynamics.
Although it seems to me that in Klipsch it was exaggerated – still I got addicted to that.

- La Scalas enclosure wood coloration made most of the instruments sound so real and believable…..

- The sound is a bit smaller. La Scalas produced huge midrange, huge stage. Again – not realistic at all, but very addictive…..

- Bass sometimes is a little boomy, boxy and a bit restrained – no much to horned bass effortless and immediacy. But I will continue to play with speakers’ position – hopefully this will improve.

So what do you thnk?

Some questions:
1. What those s/n’s mean? What year are they?
2. I hate those back wire connectors and I want to replace them.
I would go for something not flashy:
http://www.parts-express.com/images/item_standard/090-475_s.jpg
Anything I should know about connectors replacement?

3. what about midrange lenses? I see at ebay that original ones cost 200$-250$ a pair.
Are those T200’s do the same job?
shall i get only one missing T200 type?

BTW - what those lenses do?

4. any maintenance/components refresh advise?

5. I want to get glass top plates – what kind/color of foam should be under the class?

Gennady

[mech986]

Hello,

Very nice trade! Although I am a big fan of the LS3/5a and AB1 combination (I'm the moderator of the Yahoo! LS3/5a newsgroup), you have a very different pair of speakers now to deal with.

Here's some observations and comments for you.

1. The L91/2308 acoustic slant lenses from the L300 or L200 are used to provide dispersion characteristics to the H91 horn/LE85 mid driver. Without them, the sound is quite beamy and will lack sufficient overlap to provide more soundstage. Consequently, you are not yet hearing the L300 approaching its best. Now Imaging is not its strong point due to the very wide baffle and the normal floor placement, but you might get a bit more by continuing to use the plinth lifts and angle the speaker in somewhat. The horn mid without the lenses may sound a little harsh so experiment with the presence controls to taste.

2. The room that you have your speakers placed in may be adding to the bass bloom due to side wall boundary reinforcement. However, it doesn't look like the speakers really can be placed closer to each other either. Consider adding some acoustic damping material (heavy fabric/blanket wall covering to either side or floor) to reduce bass reinforcement.

3. Dynamics on this speaker may be impaired by the use of lower powered (less than 50 watts) of tube power. As good as these speakers can be with tube power, they really come alive with clean, strong higher power solid state amps with good damping factors to control the woofers well. Typically, use at least 100 watts / channel to power these speakers if you can.

4. Connector - use any type of Binding posts you like but be sure to space the holes either for 3/4 inch spacing or use the original holes and separate posts. Also make sure that all holes left over are sealed.

Bart

[Doc Mark]

Hey, Croc,

Welcome to LH!! You will see that there are quite a few of us that still love those L300's of yours! Yes, newer designs have eclipsed their performance, which is as it should be. But, the L300's are still a wonderful and very impressive speaker, and I love mine.

Bart has made some excellent comments regarding what you need to consider about your L330's. Definitely get the proper lenses for your midrange horns. Makes a big difference in sound and in dispersion.

As far as dynamics, our L300's are extremely dynamic, and do well with all types of music. They sound life-like and natural, and are capable of blowing the glass out of our place, if we wanted them to do that! :blink::D We use an 100 watt per channel amp to drive them, and so far, that's been just fine. The only time it was not enough was when I played a new digital recording of the 1812 Overture. When the cannons kicked in, I had it a bit too loud, and the amp clipped, and went into it's protection mode for a brief moment!! :blink::blink: But, for everything else, I find 100 WPC to be just fine.

Have fun with your L300's! They were top of the line, back in their day, and are still quite wonderful in many ways!! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

P.S. Someday, we wish to visit the Holy Land, and it's outstanding that you live there!! Talk about history!! WOW!!

[Tom Brennan]

Croc---I doubt you can match the dynamics of the LaScalas, direct radiating single 15s are hard pressed to match a basshorn in that regard. However you should be able to get excellent dynamics with enough power.

The L-300 always sounded a bit lumpy and "dead" to me in the lower mids and bass, perhaps you're having a similar reaction.

[Croc999]

Some more pictures for you.

[Croc999]

Thx for replys,

Bart,
i love those Rogers.
Also they're far from be perfcet they have some strong points - and what they do good they do it spectacular.
in current room they had quite big bass boom and i couldn't get rid of it.
After La Scalas it was hard to go back to boxy bass and limited dynamics.
at the end of the day they stood 2 years unconnected....

Regarding L300 dynamics:
First of all HK Citation is very strong amp.
It moved my former Sonus Faber Cremonas, which go as low as 2.2 ohm, whithout a hitch.
It's much stronger than "modern" KT88 amps - as far as i know it's primary due to its iron and high feedback design.

"To blow the glass out of the place" is not what i'm looking in dynamics.
this usually happens due to high bass dynamics.
most of good speakers do it easily.
i'm more into mid and treble dynamics - those La Scalas made me addicted to that.
L300 are not bad in this region - but still no match to 104DB sensitive speakers.

My room is already treated - all corners are completely covered with thick fiberglass panels.

I will look to get midrange lense and give myself more time to judge deeper.

So - shall i get one more T200 type lense or 2 "original" L300' lenses?
they look very similiiar but still a bit different......

BTW - what is L330's sensitivity?

Gennady

[demon]

hello gennady!

congratulations to your new speakers -and also your old ones!
would love to hear them both, i always liked the old and mean klipsches.

so how long do you have the l3oo's yet? because i would never judge a speaker (with this reputation) before i would have listened to it for some weeks. i mean, this is old news i know, but maybe you just have to adapt youself a little to the new ones to fully value and finally compare their sound to the klipsch, to choose your future system.
man, i would like to have your choices....
...your room looks great too!

hope to read more soon,
cheers--
mikey

[JBLRaiser]

Thx for replys,

Bart,
i love those Rogers.
Also they're far from be perfcet they have some strong points - and what they do good they do it spectacular.
in current room they had quite big bass boom and i couldn't get rid of it.
After La Scalas it was hard to go back to boxy bass and limited dynamics.
at the end of the day they stood 2 years unconnected....

Regarding L300 dynamics:
First of all HK Citation is very strong amp.
It moved my former Sonus Faber Cremonas, which go as low as 2.2 ohm, whithout a hitch.
It's much stronger than "modern" KT88 amps - as far as i know it's primary due to its iron and high feedback design.

"To blow the glass out of the place" is not what i'm looking in dynamics.
this usually happens due to high bass dynamics.
most of good speakers do it easily.
i'm more into mid and treble dynamics - those La Scalas made me addicted to that.
L300 are not bad in this region - but still no match to 104DB sensitive speakers.

My room is already treated - all corners are completely covered with thick fiberglass panels.

I will look to get midrange lense and give myself more time to judge deeper.

So - shall i get one more T200 type lense or 2 "original" L300' lenses?
they look very similiiar but still a bit different......

BTW - what is L330's sensitivity?

Gennady

I am using a Dynaco Stereo 70(35 wpc tubes) on the horn, Dynaco ST=400(200wpc solid state) with a 6sn7 tube based preamp to run them.
I have used just the 400 in a single amp setup, just the 70 in a single amp setup and this bi amp setup has worked the best. All you do is disconnect your woofers from the passive network, leaving your mids and horns connected. Wire them to a big solid state amp and connect both amps into your preamp, using available connections or using a y adapter for both RCA cords.
An active crossover setup is my next attempt, which will separate the crossover point more accurately.
I get much better control of the bass with a damping factor of 15 from the 400 and it frees up the tube amp to apply its' power directly to the horns/tweeters without sharing with the power hungry 15's.
From the looks of your room, turning up the volume is not an option. What you want is clarity and detail with bass. Bi amping helps to give you this. Nice Citation!!!

[Croc999]

once again about the lenses - i see two types which are a little bit different.
"newer" JBL 2308 / L91 and "older" type with wooden support.
are they both OK for L300 or one of them is a preferred?

[Paul D]

I haven't seen them with wooden supports. The older lenses had holes for mounting but you can mount them with velcro. They also had 2 extra support straps on the fronts. The older ones are heavier than the newer ones but there is no difference in sound.

[mech986]

once again about the lenses - i see two types which are a little bit different.
"newer" JBL 2308 / L91 and "older" type with wooden support.
are they both OK for L300 or one of them is a preferred?

Newer all plastic lenses were the ones that came with the L200 and L300 models as well as the 43xx series of studio monitors. They attached with velcro - one side glued or adhesive to the lense, one side to the baffle (usually the fuzzy side).

The older type on a wooden support were used in the Olympus/Sovereign/Apollo models primarily and a few others from the 60's and early 70's. They were usually screwed in by the supports. You could adapt these to the L300 if needed but it wouldn't look quite right.

Check the library here for the L300 and the brochure will give you a nice picture of it.

Bart

[doodlebug]

In that size room, the L300s should be producing some excellent sound even without the lenses _if_ they are currently up to spec. That is, if the drivers are in good condition.

Also, what has been done to rebuild the Citation II? I have one that will compete with any amp produced today once it has had its power supply rebuilt, the bias supply rebuilt and the coupling caps replaced - aka, McShaned.

Very nice setup.....

Cheers,

David

[macaroonie]

Have you checked that the drivers are all connected in the correct phase according to the crossover network diagram? If these are old / second or third owner the previous owner/s may have put something back the wrong way round.
Worth checking if you have not already done so.
Good luck. Mac

[Croc999]

Also, what has been done to rebuild the Citation II? I have one that will compete with any amp produced today once it has had its power supply rebuilt, the bias supply rebuilt and the coupling caps replaced - aka, McShaned.



David,
My Citation was McShaned and trannyes painted black.
i own it for about 4-5 years and i don't see letting it go ;)

thank you all for you comments on lenses - i ordered a set of "new type" L91.

I'll check phases of drivers connection when i install new terminals (already ordered).

is it possible to tell by serial numbers (s/n’s 22194+22195) what year / version are they?

[robertbartsch]

Missing dynamics - it is funny that you mentioned this.

For 30 years, I ran a set of Altec VOTT speakers (15" woofer and compression driver and horn) that had GREAT dynamic range. When I acquired several JBL legacy and new JBL Professional Series systems recently, I have had the SAME reaction on the lack of dynamics.

The frequency response and sonic accuracy of the JBLs is a hands-down winner but the dynamics between the softest and loudest passages is not nearly as good as the Altecs.

Anyway, one distintion in my case is that the old Altecs had a VERY high efficency rating producing close to 100db with 1 watt at 3 feet or so. Most JBLs are around 95db I beleive.

Anyway, the best thing you can do now is dump the low-powered tube amp and buy a VERY big amp. I have a few of these amps now and they make a big difference. My favorite monster amp is a Crown XLS 800D which pumps 500WPS into 8 ohm loads while running ice cold with the factory fans disconnected. New, they are about $400-$500.

[jcrobso]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=290284005669

[Rolf]

When I had the L300's, or to be more precise, the studio variant 4333A's, I used nothing less than 200 W/ch. Even this was not enough when it came to demanding recordings. Recommandations is as much power possible, but listen and be careful or you might blow something.

Never tried bi-amping the 4333, but I know it is a large improvement in sound, as when I got my 4343B's I have tried both solutions, and the difference is huge. Today I use about 700-800 W/ch on these. No problem.

You can easily get the glass top that are missing from a local company that can cut them. As far as I can remember they had a little dark "smoke" color.

[Croc999]

some minor problem for me:
today i tryed to take out both woofers to install new binding post.
one came OK.
on other half of the bolts were stacked.
so 2 are now in a bad shape and one ruined and stacked half way inside.
the woofer can be raised like 1cm from the speaker - shall i gently cut the bolt with a dremmel?
do you think new bolts are on sale?

[Croc999]

well, it's done.

both woofers taken out.
binding post replaced (10$ ebay WBT knock offs - very nice).
internal wires soldered to the binding posts.
woofers' wires ends striped and covered with solder.
woofers back and nuts tightened well.
simple speaker wire ends that i had to use for old binding posts are gone - now my trusty WBT 0645 goes straight into new binding post.

well, it's definitely sounds better :applaud:

[robertbartsch]

....now try a BIG amp and see what they can really do....

[Butch Adams]

Croc you can get reproduction 2308 lens from Kenrick sound for 130.00 US, look them up on the web. Can't say they sound better than the old ones.
my 2 cents, I have been rocking a set of 4333a's for 30 years and not yet found any speaker I like better most are just different. I will say you need more power to wake them up, even at low lestening levels a better amp makes a difference with JBL's. I've powered these old bruts with HK 19's,16's, Yamaha Pro, B&K, Crown, QSC, Crest, Kenwood and Marantz and the one thing I've noted is the bigger/better the amp the better the low level listening qualities are. Give em some time, you will fall in love with the L300's to.

[Croc999]

well - some good news and some bad news.
new lenses came (from Kenrik) - great.
my impression that they affect both soundstange/sound dispertion and midrange "color"/tone.

i got a powerfull amp for a test.
what can be better than Krell?

it's an KAV-300-il integrated with a real 200W per ch and weights ~40 pounds :biting:

bass sounds much tighter and more stronger/powerfull with a less bassboom in a room - - i like it.
midrange is more dynamic - i like it too ;)

of course it sounds "solid state" (not a compliment).
so i might try to run bass units from the SS amp and the rest from the tube.
but to get a really powerfull SS amp isn't a chep thing :(

i saw in local ads Dynaco S400 power - is uit recommended?

[robertbartsch]

OK, so the SS Krell is good but expensive.

I investigated SS amps here and learned that THD of 1% or less cannot be heard by the human ear.

I bought a dirt cheap new 802D Crown XLS at 500WPS into 8 ohms at $400, disconnected the fans and it is a very solid performer with the JBL systems. I plan to buy a couple more soon.

The really effecient Altecs did not need more than 80 WPC but the JBLs really require big power since their sensativity ratings are usually around 95db.

[Croc999]

i really love tube sound.
so SS amp for bass units sounds interesting to me......
i guess i need a power amp with "adjustable" input levels - some NADs and AMCs have it and probably a lot of PRO amps....
that Dynaco SS4 also has it i think....

[Guy L]

Hey Croc,

Patience is the key. As the previous owner of your speakers, I can only recommend you to live with them and listen to them a little longer before making drastic moves like changing your tube amp to SS.

Take care and enjoy.

Guy

[Peter Becker]

Hi

My Experience with many different Amps on the L300 was.They need big Amps to wake them up.For my taste the best Results I got with Mcintosh 7270 or my favorite Sansui BA 5000.Other Mcintosh must be also fine.I think you need at least 300 Watts per Channel.

Regards Peter

[robertbartsch]

The new XLS Crown has 500 wpc and is only $400. It has adjustible inputs too. All you need to do is disconnect the fans for home use.

...a great chioce and a rock solid performer....

I never understood the tube craze ; I owned many tube ampos before SS became the standard sometimes in the late 1960s. ...gladly gave them up and never looked back.

[Peter Becker]

Is it no problem to disconnect the Fan?Do you use this Amp in Fullrange or only for Bass?

[Paul D]

I have heard about removing fans for home use. I would think this would work only for low level listening. If the amp is pushed, it will most likely go into thermal shutdown. I had a crest amp actually start melting the plastic fan cover! And that was because the fan wouldn't kick into high speed when pushed.:blink:

Even if you plan on light duty, I would think twice about this because you know how tempting it is to "crank it up"!

[BMWCCA]

Is it no problem to disconnect the Fan?If you're willing to run it that way, it would appear you'd not be bypassing the amp's built-in thermal protection anymore than if the fan malfunctioned.
From the XLS Operation Manual on the Crownaudio site:

4.1.4 Thermal Protection
The Thermal Protection circuit will activate if the
internal heatsink temperature exceeds proper oper-
ating temperatures (194 °F, 90 °C). When the heat-
sink temperature has fallen to a safe level, this
protection circuit will automatically be reset. Princi-
ple causes of thermal protection are:
1) Inadequate ventilation of the equipment rack
2) Incorrect load impedance
3) Output cable short circuit
4) Blocked air vent
5) Heatsinks in need of cleaning
6) Cooling fan failure.
The cause of your amplifier’s thermal protection
state should be determined and corrected as soon
as possible. Without correction, the Thermal Pro-
tection circuit will typically reactivate.

4.1.4 Thermischer Schutz
Die thermische Schutzschaltung spricht an, wenn
die Temperatur der internen Kühlrippen die normale
Arbeitstemperatur (90 °C) überschreitet. Nachdem
die Kühlrippentemperatur auf ein sichere Höhe
gesunken ist, stellt sich die Schutzschaltung autom-
atisch zurück. Die hauptsächlichen Gründe für ein
Ansprechen sind:
1) unzureichende Belüftung des Racks
2) falsche Lastimpedanz
3) Kurzschluß der Ausgangskabel
4) blockierte Belüftungsöffnungen
5) verschmutzte Kühlrippen
6) Aussetzen der Ventilatoren
Die Ursachen des Ansprechens der Schutzschaltung
sollten schnellstmöglich festgestellt und behoben
werden, um ein fortgesetztes Ansprechen auszuschließen.

[Doc Mark]

Greetings, All,

I have yet to try any of our Crown amps with our L300's, and have been super happy with just an old H/K 870 amp, which is SS and rated at only 100 WPC. The amp is high current capable, and if I recall correctly, can cleanly put out almost 400 WPC when needed for transient reproduction. I did have it clip, just once, and go into "protection mode", when I played the digital version of the 1812 Overture a bit too loud! :o::blink: But, in any case, the H/K 870 seems to be just cruising along, most of the time, and with it, the L300's sound simply fantastic, with plenty of bass for most music! I do plan on adding an 18" subwoofer, just to see how much further bass extension I really "need", mostly on things like the 1812, movie soundtracks, and some pipe organ offerings. But, even without any other bass augmentation, I could happily live with the great bass the L300's already offer us! Please be advised that our L300's have 2235H 15" speakers in them, and not the original bass transducers. I have no idea if that makes a huge difference in the bass response you are getting. But, for us, the combo of L300 and 2235H is just fantastic!!

It would be fun to try bi-amping the L300's someday, with a SS amp on the bottom, for snappy, tight bass, and a sweet tube amp up top, for even more silky highs. But, as I possess no tube gear, at all, I believe this part of experimentation will not happen any time soon.

Best of luck with you L300's, and I do hope that they fill your needs as well as our L300's have filled for us! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[Rolf]

I have only had two amps with fans. One Marantz, 256W/Ch, and the noise was really annoying, so I sold it. The other was two mono blocs, the L09 from Kenwood. (300W/Ch). The fans on these was barely noticeable.

My opinion is that besides PA applications, where the noise from the fans does not matter, amps with fans does not belong in a hi-fi setup at home. If a fan is needed in a home hi-fi setup, the construction of the amp is poor. So don't buy it. Find a better constructed amp, that does not require a fan.

[hjames]

I have only had two amps with fans. One Marantz, 256W/Ch, and the noise was really annoying, so I sold it. The other was two mono blocs, the L09 from Kenwood. (300W/Ch). The fans on these was barely noticeable.

My opinion is that besides PA applications, where the noise from the fans does not matter, amps with fans does not belong in a hi-fi setup at home. If a fan is needed in a home hi-fi setup, the construction of the amp is poor. So don't buy it. Find a better constructed amp, that does not require a fan.

Lots of folks stack hot gear right on top of each other - with no airflow.
Lots of gear might run cooler if they had adequate airflow, and generally,
cool gear lasts longer!

[Rolf]

Lots of folks stack hot gear right on top of each other - with no airflow.

Yes I know, but that is just stupid. Especially with power amps.


Lots of gear might run cooler if they had adequate airflow, and generally,
cool gear lasts longer!
A well constructed amp will never be that hot. If it does, the you don't have a large enough amp in the system.

[sa660]

2 advices:

1. Bigger/stronger amplifiers.
2. Bi-amplification
Both of these actions will help clarify the bass and its dynamics.

[hjames]

Yes I know, but that is just stupid.
Especially with power amps.


Stacking hot gear on top of itself may be stupid - but I see pictures of racked up gear with no airspace every day! There is a REASON I made that comment.



A well constructed amp will never be that hot. If it does, then you don't have a large enough amp in the system.

Depends on what the definition of "well constructed' is ...
with a high end budget, that's probably true, but in the real world, most folks have to consider tradeoffs and won't have access to Pass amps and such, so your "best case absolutes" don't apply ...

Lots of gear has fans to improve airflow, it may not make it "well constructed", it may be overkill or overdesigned, but it can't hurt when buyers may be "less technical".

[4313B]

Lots of gear has fans to improve airflow, it may not make it "well constructed", it may be overkill or overdesigned, but it can't hurt when buyers may be "less technical".Consumer gear can afford to have a hundred pounds of heat sink material because it is "stationary". Consumer amplifiers don't use fans because of the low noise floor encountered in the typical home environment.

Pro amps become more bearable in the typical home environment once you add in a few little kids to raise the noise floor. :rotfl:

I have yet to try any of our Crown amps with our L300's, and have been super happy with just an old H/K 870 amp, which is SS and rated at only 100 WPC.The H/K gear always worked really well with JBL's, that's no secret. You should try the Crowns though, especially if they are old school. That should give you even greater respect for the little H/K. :p

Some of the Luxman amps sounded really nice with the L300's as did some of the Adcom amps. The Citation XX and the L300 sounded really nice together. Usually though the L300's ended up driving whatever amp was hooked up to them instead of the other way around.

[robertbartsch]

I just bought another Crown XLS 802D today.

They have a manufaturor's rebate of $100 USD through 1/31/09!

Wow - what a deal.

The units has been running non-stop w/out fans for months now - runs ice cold.

[robertbartsch]

IMO, the minimuim power for a 3-way system with a sensitivty rating in the mid 90s db at 3 feet is 200 WPC.

Using an amp of anything less will result in a lack of PUNCH. I suppose this is particularly true for 15" woofer systems.

Don't believe me? - try a big amp and see for yourself!

[Rolf]

Stacking hot gear on top of itself may be stupid - but I see pictures of racked up gear with no airspace every day! There is a REASON I made that comment.


Yes you can see it a lot of places, ... but ... excuse me, does that make it less stupid?:blink:



Depends on what the definition of "well constructed' is ...
with a high end budget, that's probably true, but in the real world, most folks have to consider tradeoffs and won't have access to Pass amps and such, so your "best case absolutes" don't apply ...


Well, in this case "Well Constructed" should mean the amp having heat sinks large enough to avoid the use of fans, and you don't need to pay the price of a Pass amp to achieve that.



Lots of gear has fans to improve airflow, it may not make it "well constructed", it may be overkill or overdesigned, but it can't hurt when buyers may be "less technical".

:blink:

[BMWCCA]

Well, in this case "Well Constructed" should mean the amp having heat sinks large enough to avoid the use of fans, and you don't need to pay the price of a Pass amp to achieve that.All my old Crown D- and PS-series amps have substantial heat sinks and fins with no fans. However, Crown also offered accessory external fans and chimneys to mount on those fins for when multiple amps were stacked or installed in closed racks. In thirty-five years I've only had one Crown go into thermal protection and that was an old "faceless" D150 I had sitting on its "side" on a shelf, with no feet to lift it, pushing my 030s outside at a party in the mountains all day long. As soon as it shut down I stuck a pencil under it and it played the rest of the evening—and for the next 35 years—without a problem.

It's four-feet from me now powering my L112s with a Mac C20 tube pre-amp. That system has been in that configuration for almost thirty years and the amp and pre-amp have been together for thirty-five years.

[SEAWOLF97]

My opinion is that besides PA applications, where the noise from the fans does not matter, amps with fans does not belong in a hi-fi setup at home. If a fan is needed in a home hi-fi setup, the construction of the amp is poor. So don't buy it. Find a better constructed amp, that does not require a fan.

My BGW750D (375wpc) is a commercial/touring amp with fan ..it has two fan settings....low/high... it would only run on high when I received it, which was too noisy in a home,,so I disconnected it and added an external muffin fan (4in 120v from PC) and a rheostat to dial in exactly the airflow I want..now runs quiet and stone cold. EZ fix.

[Rolf]

All my old Crown D- and PS-series amps have substantial heat sinks and fins with no fans.


There you go ... "well constructed":)

[Rolf]

My BGW750D (375wpc) is a commercial/touring amp with fan ..it has two fan settings....low/high... it would only run on high when I received it, which was too noisy in a home,,so I disconnected it and added an external muffin fan (4in 120v from PC) and a rheostat to dial in exactly the airflow I want..now runs quiet and stone cold. EZ fix.

I was thinking about "shall I make a note about this?", when I wrote my reply to hjames, as you can get very quiet fans used in PC's.

If one must put power amps on top of each other this is the way to go.

[hjames]

Lots of folks stack hot gear right on top of each other - with no airflow.
Lots of gear might run cooler if they had adequate airflow, and generally,
cool gear lasts longer!


Yes I know, but that is just stupid.
Especially with power amps.


Stacking hot gear on top of itself may be stupid - but I see pictures of racked up gear with no airspace every day! There is a REASON I made that comment.



Yes you can see it a lot of places, ... but ... excuse me, does that make it less stupid?:blink:

:blink:

I never said it WASN'T stupid - I've seen racks like that posted here, I was just less insulting than you are about it ...

Why do you take an argumentative tone if you agree with me??

[Rolf]

I never said it WASN'T stupid - I've seen racks like that posted here, I was just less insulting than you are about it ...

Why do you take an argumentative tone if you agree with me??

Sorry if you understood it this way. Not my intention.:o::crying:

[Croc999]

yestarday had some more listening with a Krell and although the bass is definitely tighter - and this handy for "overbassed" recordings in my a little "bass boomy" room - the difference is not that huge.
the downside of SS sound doesn't worth it.
in dynamics - across all freq ranges - i don't think Krell had advantages....

also tried to amp only woofers by Krell - and IMO the over integration was not perfect.
sounds to me that the woofer is going up quite high - 500 Hz even maybe 800 Hz and this why midarnge and midbass doesn't integrate well with different types of amp.

at whar freqs L300's xover crosses the drivers?


next thing i will put KT90 tubes into the Citation - this should give it more juice.....

[robertbartsch]

I ran Altecs VOTT for 30 years using various amps that did not exceed 100WPC and I did not perceive a need for additional power. They are very efficient - rated at 98db @1 watt at 3 feet, however.

With systems rated at 95db or less, however, you really need much more power IMO.

I've owned several tube amps which I always considered inferior to SS. Can you refresh my memory and tell me why some folks prefer tube amps?

I know the THD and IMD for tubes is higher...

[Rolf]

I ran Altecs VOTT for 30 years using various amps that did not exceed 100WPC and I did not perceive a need for additional power. ..

I know people that has blown "the shit of of the Klipcs" many times, but those are people that put on a recording, leaving the room, and listen at maybe 100m (300 yards). :barf:I guess it is similar to the Altec. They don't handle much power.

[Croc999]

i'm going to tackle worn out cosmetics by building new front panels.

those also will be a bit absorbing and hopefully reduce "wide front buffle" influence and improve imaging.

the pattern is ready :applaud:

[Hofmannhp]

......
is it possible to tell by serial numbers (s/n’s 22194+22195) what year / version are they?

Hi Croc,

your systems with the numbers 22194 + 22195 are from 1979.

I fed them into our registry now......hope this is ok....?

you can find them here:

www.prpr.no/lhs
User: lhs
PW: lhs2007

regards

HP

[Peter Becker]

yestarday had some more listening with a Krell and although the bass is definitely tighter - and this handy for "overbassed" recordings in my a little "bass boomy" room - the difference is not that huge.
the downside of SS sound doesn't worth it.
in dynamics - across all freq ranges - i don't think Krell had advantages....

also tried to amp only woofers by Krell - and IMO the over integration was not perfect.
sounds to me that the woofer is going up quite high - 500 Hz even maybe 800 Hz and this why midarnge and midbass doesn't integrate well with different types of amp.

at whar freqs L300's xover crosses the drivers?

Try a Mcintosh Amp with 300 Watts per Side.If you like Tubeamp sound may be thats it for because Mcintosh build the Amps with Outputtransformer like Tubeamps.So you the Sound from Tubes wth the Control from Transistor.I also like the Sound from Mcintosh Preamps.The best Match with the Amps from .


next thing i will put KT90 tubes into the Citation - this should give it more juice.....

Try it

[robertbartsch]

Would some one explain to me why some people enjoy tube amps?

As a past owner of many tube amps, I just don't understand this.

[Tom Brennan]

Would some one explain to me why some people enjoy tube amps?



They like the sound, what else?

[Rolf]

Would some one explain to me why some people enjoy tube amps?

As a past owner of many tube amps, I just don't understand this.

I have often wondered about the same myself. The only reason I have come up with is that it is the same when stereo became available, a lot of people meant that the sound now was ruined, and continued to play mono. Not many of them left today.

[4313B]

They like the sound, what else?More importantly, their visual impact. :p

Would some one explain to me why some people enjoy tube amps?

As a past owner of many tube amps, I just don't understand this.Because tube gear can sound really good with high performance, high efficiency loudspeaker systems. Some guys run solid state amps on the bottom end (direct radiators) and tube amps on the top end (compression drivers).

[Chas]

Some guys run solid state amps on the bottom end (direct radiators) and tube amps on the top end (compression drivers).
:yes::yes::banana:Yeah baby!!

[mech986]

Hi Croc,

Are these your previously owned LS3/5a now on the auction site?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130285205863

Seems in the background there is another pair of L300's, did your friend have two pair? The lenses are with those, wonder what happened to your original lenses.

BTW, how are things working out now with your L300's?

Bart

[BMWCCA]

The revival of this thread, and the side-bar posts it provoked, sent me looking for something I'd read in a Crown amplifier applications manual a while ago:
1.1.1 Fan-Assisted Models
Don’t use vented spacer panels between amps in a rack.
Because of the airflow technology we use in our amps, it is best to stack multiple amplifiers on top of each other with no space between.
The amplifier draws fresh air into the front of the amp and exhausts it either out the sides and into the rack, or out the back depending on the model. We want the hot air that’s in the rack to vent out the sides or back—not the front. If any of these amplifiers are spaced apart with vented panels, some of the preheated air will recycle to the front of the rack and back into the amplifier. The result is loss of thermal headroom. If you choose to place the amplifiers with space between them, then use solid panels between them, not vented panels.

1.1.2 Convection-Only Models
When racking convection-cooled amplifiers, it is best to leave one rack-space between amps because this type of amplifier needs space to radiate the heat.

Stacking hot gear on top of itself may be stupid - but I see pictures of racked up gear with no airspace every day! There is a REASON I made that comment.

Depends on what the definition of "well constructed' is ...
with a high end budget, that's probably true, but in the real world, most folks have to consider tradeoffs and won't have access to Pass amps and such, so your "best case absolutes" don't apply ...

Lots of gear has fans to improve airflow, it may not make it "well constructed", it may be overkill or overdesigned, but it can't hurt when buyers may be "less technical".

[hjames]

The revival of this thread, and the side-bar posts it provoked, sent me looking for something I'd read in a Crown amplifier applications manual a while ago:

Okay, so the CHEAP STUFF that need fans should be jammed together tightly -:banghead:
but with the better designed gear it can be advantageous to space them ...

[BMWCCA]

Okay, so the CHEAP STUFF that need fans should be jammed together tightly -:banghead:
but with the better designed gear it can be advantageous to space them ..."Better designed" according to the book of Rolf! I'd never call a MacroTech a "cheap" amp. ;)
All Crown says is that fan-cooled amps that draw air in from the front and out the back are designed to be stacked together so they get the correct air flow. If they vent to the side though, they need 2-inches from each side of the rack/cabinet.

I'm just guessing Crown knows whereof they speak. :hmm:

[Rolf]

"to the book of Rolf! :hmm:

What book?

[Croc999]

Hi Croc,

Are these your previously owned LS3/5a now on the auction site?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130285205863

Seems in the background there is another pair of L300's, did your friend have two pair? The lenses are with those, wonder what happened to your original lenses.

BTW, how are things working out now with your L300's?

Bart

yes, that's them/him.
he gave me just one lense.
since i bought pair of new kenriks - i guess i will try to sale the original one piece that i got.

L300's works just fine.
i installed in Citation a set of KT-90 tubes that i gt 4 years ago but never used.
it gives 10 more watts.
currently i have bass overblown only on bass overblown recordings.
i plan to add more bass traping to my room to improve this.