Are these L400 prototypes?

[tom1356]

I know several prototypes were made is this one of them?

[hjames]

I know several prototypes were made is this one of them?

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=35662&stc=1&d=1228165954 http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=35663&stc=1&d=1228165961


Wow - kinda looks related to this, but with blue paint ...

Of course your image seems more like a big 4315 (no mid-horn) -
this one is more like a 4341 in an L200 cabinet ...

[tom1356]

Wow - kinda looks related to this with blue paint ...

Of course your image seems more like a big 4315 (no mid-horn) -
this one is more like a 4341 in an L200 cabinet ...
Nice picture.
The fit and finish on the one I posted shows a high level of professionalism which leads me to believe it could be a prototype as claimed.

[BMWCCA]

Can you read the foil-cal? :applaud:

[oldsoundz]

Those are very cool.

Any more pics?

Are they for sale near you?

[tom1356]

I should have more pics tomorrow.

[mech986]

I saw these in a posting on a CL a few days ago when they first came up and that's where I suspect the OP got the pics. I've emailed the CL poster but have not received any followup or feedback. If the OP has more information coming, that's great.

The speakers are stated as being made by JBL as a prototype and our assuming a L400 sort of connection is obvious, although I would have thought they would have used a slightly more upright cabinet.

But a very interesting speaker and one that bears further examination and hopefully some history will be revealed.

Bart

[BMWCCA]

I saw these in a posting on a CL a few days ago when they first came up and that's where I suspect the OP got the pics.
Well, I'll share, if no one else will: http://santabarbara.craigslist.org/ele/937553724.html


JBL HOME OR STUDIO 4 WAY MONITORS - $2400 (SLO)

Reply to: [email protected] [? (http://www.craigslist.org/about/help/replying_to_posts)]
Date: 2008-11-28, 7:51PM PST

One of a kind prototype system. 4 way 15" system designed and built into redesigned L200 cabinets. This was a JBL prototype that was never taken to production, only one set is in existence. If you like loud and clean, which JBL has always been know for, you will love these. I've had them in the living room for ever but my wife now says that they either go into the music room or out of the house...hmmm...since I love her more than these speakers, you have a chance at a collectors item. Price is negotiable.

[tom1356]

Well, I'll share, if no one else will: http://santabarbara.craigslist.org/ele/937553724.html

That's where I bought them.:applaud:

[BMWCCA]

That's where I bought them.:applaud:Great piece of history you've got there. I'd be curious to see how they compare to something similar with horns. Keep in touch! :cheers:

[tom1356]

Great piece of history you've got there. I'd be curious to see how they compare to something similar with horns. Keep in touch! :cheers:
I will post more details when I get them.

[hjames]

I will post more details when I get them.

Very cool thread -thank you for sharing! :D

[speakerdave]

I bet if you pulled that woofer you would find a copy (original) of the 4315 crossover, model 3114. I 15" woofer has been substituted for the 2203.

David

[Robh3606]

I doubt it



http://www.audioheritage.org/images/jbl/extracts/thumbs/L400_small.jpg (http://www.audioheritage.org/images/jbl/extracts/L400.jpg)
L400
© Harman International, Courtesy Greg Timbers
Above is an excerpt from JBL's 1975 catalog illustrating a "mystery speaker" referred to as the L400. The only description says, "Coming soon. The L400, with the promise that it will be the most exciting fusion of art and technology yet presented by JBL." It never came.

Originally, the speaker was planned to be a domestic conversion of the 4340 monitor, similar to the L300 conversion of the 4333 monitor. It would be a four-way speaker using a 15" low frequency driver, 10" midbass, 1" throat compression driver midrange and slot tweeter. The main development work in converting this speaker for domestic use centered on network design changes, a revised midrange horn and aesthetics suitable for a home environment

There were three separate attempts to bring this speaker to market. All failed before a final decision was made to cancel the project. The primary difficulty was developing a system that could be sold at a reasonable cost. However, there were also technical issues and no one was satisfied with the ultimate sound of the prototypes.

Rob:)

[johnaec]

I bet if you pulled that woofer you would find a copy (original) of the 4315 crossover, model 3114. I 15" woofer has been substituted for the 2203.

DavidI agree - it's looks like a beefed up 4315 with 15" or 18" LF.

John

[mech986]

I will post more details when I get them.

Hi Tom,

Congrats!! I didn't know if the speakers were still for sale or in play but now I know why the seller didn't get back to me. It would be really interesting to see if he has anything that can document or substantiate his description.

Certainly looks well made and up to the level of a protoype. I've got the same thing in a pair of 4340 type cabinets that have a similar driver complement except for the possibility of a 8 inch midbass and a compression driver midrange.

See this thread:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=20541

Bart

[Oldmics]

I would want to look at both of those larger drivers.

They certainly appear to have been reconed and I would want to know what parts were used.

Still , Pretty Cool :applaud:

Oldmics

[Zilch]

"There's a big-ass hole in the response around 600 Hz!"

"NO problem, make it a 4-way. We'll call it L400."

"Still there...." :dont-know

[Mr. Widget]

I doubt itUnfortunately I doubt it also...:(

JBL had and still has an excellent prototype shop... why would they have used an L200 cab with it's side panels designed to be used with the L91 on a speaker with no lens?

I think someone did a very nice job Zilching a pair of L200s with 4315 parts.


Widget

[Ian Mackenzie]

I like the driver layout and it looks well thought in that the five in cone and the slot are postioned at ear level whch is always a problem with large 4 way arrays vertically configured.

I might even consider it for my defuncted 4345's

[Doc Mark]

BMWCCA shared this:

Quote:
"JBL HOME OR STUDIO 4 WAY MONITORS - $2400 (SLO)

Reply to: [email protected] [? (http://www.craigslist.org/about/help/replying_to_posts)]
Date: 2008-11-28, 7:51PM PST

One of a kind prototype system. 4 way 15" system designed and built into redesigned L200 cabinets. This was a JBL prototype that was never taken to production, only one set is in existence. If you like loud and clean, which JBL has always been know for, you will love these. I've had them in the living room for ever but my wife now says that they either go into the music room or out of the house...hmmm...since I love her more than these speakers, you have a chance at a collectors item. Price is negotiable. "


Morning, All,

Neat 4-way! I am wondering if the seller is calling these a "JBL prototype", just because it uses JBL parts? If he is the one who cobbled these speakers together, then he does KNOW that there is only one pair in existance, and because he used JBL parts to do it, he is calling it a "JBL prototype". What do you think? While this might not be technically true, as this system was very probably NOT actually made by JBL, I can understand why the seller might want to list it the way he did.

Having said that, it IS a nice looking system, and probably sounds pretty nice, too. As long as the buyer is happy with it, then that's all that matters, really. Just some thoughts on all this..... Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc (who's off to the airport to drop off Sweet Bride, at this early hour!):blink:

[hjames]

"There's a big-ass hole in the response around 600 Hz!"

"NO problem, make it a 4-way. We'll call it L400."

"Still there...." :dont-know

Would that hole be there if you moved the baffle-board forward so it wasn't shrouded by the sides?
Even for a 4315 in that box with a 15" subbed in on the bottom?

No doubt the knowing is in the hearing ...
Hopefully Tom enjoyed the sound enough to add it to his collection!

[BMWCCA]

Given the hierarchy implied by the ascent from L200 to L300, I would have expected a true JBL L400 to have included a compression driver HF horn. Logically, this would have been an L300 with an added mid-bass 10". Maybe this prototype was the attempt to cut the cost after the first four-way version was determined to be unmarketable at a profitable price-point?

L200 = two-way
L300 = three-way with better HF horn and added UHF
L400 = four-way with an inferior HF compared to the L300? Not likely.

[hjames]

Given the hierarchy implied by the ascent from L200 to L300, I would have expected a true JBL L400 to have included a compression driver HF horn. Logically, this would have been an L300 with an added mid-bass 10". Maybe this prototype was the attempt to cut the cost after the first four-way version was determined to be unmarketable at a profitable price-point?

L200 = two-way
L300 = three-way with better HF horn and added UHF
L400 = four-way with an inferior HF compared to the L300? Not likely.

Well, some folks just don't like horns!

Think ti dome drivers
he he he he

[Robh3606]

Think ti dome drivers

Too Early

Rob:)

[tom1356]

After reading the opinions posted here it seems to me these are unlikely JBL built prototype speakers.
Oh well.

[hjames]

After reading the opinions posted here it seems to me these are unlikely JBL built prototype speakers.
Oh well.

Well, it really depends on what is in the box!
Photos of the crossover network and drivers would tell more ...

Again, there are no insults or anything implied -
As the owner of a pair of L200s I upgraded to 3 way capability,
and with an early 4 way system (4341 Monitors) in our Music room,
I am genuinely interested in your speakers!

[4313B]

Would that hole be there if you moved the baffle-board forward so it wasn't shrouded by the sides?Greg says there is no hole. He even bothered to look it up a few weeks ago.

I agree - it's looks like a beefed up 4315 with 15" or 18" LF.I had a pair. 2231H, 2108H, 2105H, 077, 3114A

The 2108H with the L-Pad wide open barely kept up with the 2231H.

If I had it all to do over again I would use LE14H, 2108H, 2105H, 066.

To put the L400 in proper perspective one has to appreciate the statement - "no one was satisfied with the ultimate sound of the prototypes."

It really wasn't until the 4345 and 4355 that JBL "perfected" the large format 4-way JBL Studio Monitor. Even those models are difficult for the non-professional consumer to deploy correctly.

[Zilch]

Would that hole be there if you moved the baffle-board forward so it wasn't shrouded by the sides?

Even for a 4315 in that box with a 15" subbed in on the bottom?I made it up, an imaginary scenario born of dubious conclusions posted in another family of threads here.

Greg says there's no hole, there's no hole; I don't have to wash my face, after all.... :D

[Ian Mackenzie]

The 4348 is todays L400

[hjames]

I made it up, an imaginary scenario born of dubious conclusions posted in another family of threads here.

.... :D

OMG - everybody gets spanked today!!


:applaud:

[Zilch]

OMG - everybody gets spanked today!!Ooooo! Me FIRST, please.... :p

[mech986]

Hello all,

I've had a reply from the seller and I'm verifying whether it would be ok to post his reply to me for sharing here. I have invited him to join our little group and perhaps share some history and perspective with us, assuming he isn't scared off by some of the comments or speculation we (and me) sometimes provide. And yes, he has a solid connection to JBL.

I will say this: the L400 connection may only be from the 4 way perspective. The seller says it was a prototype for a particular design concept. No mention of the L400 connection as yet. However, I suspect it was developed at the time these questions were starting to be asked both by engineering and marketing. Hindsight says guys like us would have loved to try something like this. Question is, would it have been a viable product for JBL to produce and sell at a profit and would it have been good. History says there were more concepts to check out before the Pro Studio versions were perfected as 4313B points out and lots more time before the L212-L250 4 ways really were ready for consumer prime time and success.

More hopefully to come. This is a fun thread but personally I hope we can moderate the strong statements. Again, like in another thread, the people who designed these speakers and implemented them are not always here to defend themselves and their work, nor should they. I hope we can carry on in the spirit of "Discussion" as our forum is so aptly named on the site index page.

Regards,

Bart

[mech986]

Wow - kinda looks related to this, but with blue paint ...

Of course your image seems more like a big 4315 (no mid-horn) -
this one is more like a 4341 in an L200 cabinet ...

Hi Heather,

Where did you source that L200 4 way photo, I don't remember seeing it here but then I miss a lot of stuff...

Bart

[hjames]

Hi Heather,

Where did you source that L200 4 way photo, I don't remember seeing it here but then I miss a lot of stuff...

Bart

I found it here ages ago, then saw another larger copy yesterday on that fella's site in Binghamton, NY :D

http://www.katzassaudio.com/custom.html

Certainly makes you think!
- tho you'd still need a deep "grill" to cover the lens on that L200D variant!

[mech986]

Ok, I have the go ahead so here's the reply in full that I received from the seller:

"Hi Bart,

Sorry for the delay in responding, I had to go out of town for a
couple of days. Did you work at JBL at any time?

I worked directly with Ed May back between 1971 and 1973 as a tech
assistant in engineering. He was truly an inspiration. This system was my
idea because I simply did not like the horn sound in a home or studio
setting. At my request we had these built to see how they would look and
sound. I loved them, marketing didn't...so they became my home system for
the past 32 years.

My thought at that time was to basically take the 4 way 12" monitor
system (I don't remember the model number, the mind is the second thing to
go...and I don't remember the first), redesign the xover system to accept
the 15" and redesign the L200 enclosure by properly bracing it and moving
the baffle board up to the front. All of the transducers were hand made by
myself and although again I don't remember the numbers, were built to be as
perfect as we could get them. The 077's on top were a matched set. I've had
new surrounds put on the 15's 10 yrs ago or so but other than that they just
keep working very well.
Hope that helps..."

Well, the above should address some of the points in this thread. Sounds like the offshoot/evolution of the 4315 design is the right direction.

Had a nice phone conversation with the seller as well and have hopes he'll be able to add more to this thread as well as his experiences working on Musical Instrument transducers and speakers in the early 70's. He also did work with Ed May, Pat Everidge, and G.T. Hope we can welcome him soon.

Regards,

Bart

[tsslo1]

Well I guess I started quite a conversation about my system that I'm selling. To start with I must correct my previous email to Bart in which I stated when I worked in engineering at JBL. I quit ElectroVoice (EV in Buchanan Michigan) in 1972 and moved to LA and began with JBL in January of 1973 and worked in engineering through June of 1976. You all have quite a nice forum here and it brings back wonderful memories.

Best wishes,
Tom Swem

[oldsoundz]

Thanks for sharing Tom!

I just love the look of those speakers. The l200 cab looks very sharp with the blue face paint.

Chris

[Doc Mark]

Hello, Tom,

Welcome to LH, and thanks, very much, for joining up to add a little more info about your speakers!! As you will soon see, we're a pretty diverse little group here, but we're all joined in our common love of things JBL!! Sounds like you will fit in perfectly, Sir! I look forward to any and all input you would like to share, about your time at JBL, and about the speakers you created. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc (still in deep lust with my L300's!!) ;):applaud::D

P.S. Tom, Sweet Bride and I work in SLO each Summer, for a couple of weeks. I think our next gig up there is in July, or thereabouts. If you're up for it, maybe we can meet for lunch, and some JBL talk. Let me know, and we can make a plan.

[4313B]

I quit ElectroVoice (EV in Buchanan Michigan) in 1972 and moved to LA and began with JBL in January of 1973 and worked in engineering through June of 1976.Welcome to our website Tom and thanks for the post! EV was a real powerhouse of talent. Did you happen to work with Don Keele, Jeff White or Howard Durbin? We are all ears so if you feel like filling us in on some EV and JBL history that would be fantastic. If I remember correctly Mark Gander and Greg Timbers were just starting out at JBL around that time.

[tsslo1]

I knew Howard Durbin and worked with Larry Salzwedel and Don Keele in engineering at EV, didn't know Don very well but I remember him, if I remember right he was very much into bass reflex enclosure design. GT got to JBL a year or so before me and Mark got there after me. JBL moved to Balboa (the old RCA facility) from Cacitas just after I left in 1976.

[Titanium Dome]

A partial quote of Tom by Bart:



"Hi Bart,

This system was my
idea because I simply did not like the horn sound in a home or studio
setting. At my request we had these built to see how they would look and
sound. I loved them, marketing didn't...so they became my home system for
the past 32 years.

My thought at that time was to basically take the 4 way 12" monitor
system... redesign the xover system to accept
the 15" and redesign the L200 enclosure by properly bracing it and moving
the baffle board up to the front. All of the transducers were hand made by
myself and although again I don't remember the numbers, were built to be as
perfect as we could get them. The 077's on top were a matched set. I've had
new surrounds put on the 15's 10 yrs ago or so but other than that they just
keep working very well.
Hope that helps..."

Well, the above should address some of the points in this thread. Sounds like the offshoot/evolution of the 4315 design is the right direction.



Tom, I like the way you think. I've always liked a well-wrought, four-way, direct radiator design over horn-based home systems. That you liked it and marketing didn't, well I'll just be polite and write that marketing has its place.

Welcome to the site. Hope to hear more from you.

[hjames]

Welcome aboard, and thanks for all the information, Tom!

Is it possible you could upload some pictures of the speakers directly to the site here, so in a year or more others could still find them when doing research? It'd really add a lot to this thread!


Well I guess I started quite a conversation about my system that I'm selling. To start with I must correct my previous email to Bart in which I stated when I worked in engineering at JBL. I quit ElectroVoice (EV in Buchanan Michigan) in 1972 and moved to LA and began with JBL in January of 1973 and worked in engineering through June of 1976. You all have quite a nice forum here and it brings back wonderful memories.

Best wishes,
Tom Swem

[mech986]

Hi all,

Tom sent some additional photos to share with everyone. He indicated to me that the L200 cabinets had been refinished about the same time as the surrounds. The grille was the original L200 type Crenelex foam grille but that disintegrated and was replaced by the blue grilles as seen in the photos (which to my eye look very nice and give the speakers that nice Pro look).

Here's the first 4 of 7 pics. Enjoy!

Bart

[mech986]

The rest:

[4313B]

Nice! I need to find the photo of my pair. That was so long ago.

[3dbdown]

Tom !!

Hey, Swimmer!! Long time, no talk to...I remember when you built those puppies!

Also remember the rides with Gordy and Carol! Had dinner with GT a few weeks back, and he says Howard Durbin is still around somewhere.

Welcome to the Forum....http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/icons/icon7.gif

Rick Horn
(JBL #12)

[SMKSoundPro]

Well! This thread has become SO very cool!!

I am a gog! Thank you Mr. Swem for joining!

Scotty.

ps. I learn so much here!

[Ian Mackenzie]

Nice! I need to find the photo of my pair. That was so long ago.

Bring it on!

[4313B]

Bring it on!Ok, I just replaced the broken HP with a Brother of dubious background and these are the first scans I tried. These photos are really old and I've always been a bad photographer. :p

Bi-amp only mirror imaged 4315 variant. 2231H, 2108H, 2105H, 077, modified 3114A. Mark Gander graciously answered any questions I had.

That "large scale" L96 variant in the second picture was built before there was a JBL L96. LE10H, LE5H, 044, 3113B. Those 044's were a gift off the desk of a certain someone at JBL, they were unavailable as raw drivers way back then.

[4313B]

if I remember right he was very much into bass reflex enclosure designYes, he did substantial follow up to Thiele and Small. I heard that he and Small both work for Harman Becker now.

GT got to JBL a year or so before me and Mark got there after me. JBL moved to Balboa (the old RCA facility) from Cacitas just after I left in 1976.Oh, it looks like Don didn't make it to JBL until 1977. I didn't realize that he was at Klipsch between EV and JBL.

Had dinner with GT a few weeks back, and he says Howard Durbin is still around somewhere.I wonder what he is doing these days.

[scott fitlin]

Ok, I just replaced the broken HP with a Brother of dubious background and these are the first scans I tried. These photos are really old and I've always been a bad photographer. :p

Bi-amp only mirror imaged 4315 variant. 2231H, 2108H, 2105H, 077, modified 3114A. Mark Gander graciously answered any questions I had.

That "large scale" L96 variant in the second picture was built before there was a JBL L96. LE10H, LE5H, 044, 3113B. Those 044's were a gift off the desk of a certain someone at JBL, they were unavailable as raw drivers way back then.That's ALOT of McJBL you got there!

Your almost as bad as me!

:applaud:

[4313B]

That's ALOT of McJBL you got there!

Your almost as bad as me!

:applaud:That was 30 years ago Scott. All that stuff is long gone now. My junior high school woodshop teacher got me started on building boxes.

[scott fitlin]

That was 30 years ago Scott. All that stuff is long gone now. My junior high school woodshop teacher got me started on building boxes.:applaud:

Still, great to know Im not the only JBL- A- Holic!

:bouncy:

[DavidF]

That was 30 years ago Scott. All that stuff is long gone now. My junior high school woodshop teacher got me started on building boxes.

Do schools still have "shop"? Simple things I learned in shop back then carry huge benefits still today.

How did you work up the volume of the enclosures? Appear like they are set up for max. damping on the woofs.

Not gonna ask about that carpet...does match with the JBL blue, though.

Thanks for the look back.

[4313B]

How did you work up the volume of the enclosures?With a bunch of formulas from D.B. Keele, parameters from Mark Gander and crunching numbers using the contraption below.

At that time I had a big old HP VT oscillator and VTVM to measure tuning frequencies with.

I distinctly remember that the 10-inch 3-way box was built on the 1.62:1.00:0.62 golden ratio and it didn't sound so good. :p It probably would have sounded better if I'd used the 0.62 side panels as the baffles since deep boxes with narrow baffles tend to sound better than shallow boxes with wider baffles. The components and networks themselves were perfectly sound, so, "bad" boxes.

Speaking of Mark, here's an article from 2003. - Sound Profiles: Ready For The Next Challenge (http://www.livesoundint.com/archives/2004/jan/ready/ready.php)

[Mr. Widget]

With a bunch of formulas from D.B. Keele, parameters from Mark Gander and crunching numbers using the contraption below.Oh, that takes me back!

Parallel Universe... I still have my HP 25C with my own box formula lost in it's tiny brain... unfortunately the battery died years ago and since it was proprietary the otherwise perfectly good calculator became a useless brick.


Widget

[tsslo1]

Hi Rick....where are gordon and Carol now?? Say Hi to Greg for me and if you get up to SLO, give me a call...

[Hoerninger]

... HP25C ... since it was proprietary the otherwise perfectly good calculator became a useless brick.

Irreversible? The HP25 containes two 1,25 V cells:
My HP75 has a proprietary batterie pack with 3,6 V. I carefully opened the plastic box with a cutter knife. It contained three mignon cells :) - replaceable and still running (but not in use).
( And I have four more programmable pocket calculators by HP. US made at its best!)
___________
Peter

[Chas]

That was 30 years ago Scott.

Man, you ditched the fog horns that long ago? :D

But seriously, nice to see you share a part of your history. It's likely appreciated by more of us than just me.;)

[4313B]

Man, you ditched the foghorns that long ago? :D
The 4430 came out around 1980...

I have foghorns in my living room right now. I just don't have any networks hooked up to them at the moment.