Near or Midfield? Question.

[Ti 5000]

Hallo together.
I listen on a JBL Century Gold. Can anyone told me, for what is the Century Produced? Is it a near or midfield Speaker?
And wich Distance is near or midfield in Meters?
Pleas help.

Thanks Peter

[Ti 5000]

Is Nobody here, who knows about my Question?:banghead::D

[johnaec]

Based on the fact that most nearfield speakers I see advertised generally use either 6" or 8" LF drivers for close-up use, I would put the Century Gold more in the midfield category because of its larger size and greater listening distance required for the rest of the drivers to merge better as a source.

John

[BMWCCA]

Is Nobody here, who knows about my Question?:banghead::DIt's really neither. It was designed for a living room in a home environment. That's why JBL called them "bookshelf" speakers rather than "monitors". If it's so important to you to find out, why not try them in both situations and see how they work? What are you trying to do with them, anyway? They were built as a special 50th-anniversary commemorative design destined for collectors to use in their homes. There are plenty of simpler, more available, JBL boxes that could be used in near or mid-field monitor application that have no real intrinsic value beyond the sound they produce. They're generally called monitors in those cases.

[Doctor_Electron]

Ti5000, you may find these articles to be interesting:

(http://www.sweetwater.com/NearField/)Near-Fields Handbook | Sweetwater.com
http://www.sweetwater.com/NearField/

Owners' manual for some Tannoys. Good placement information & more.

Choosing a Studio Monitor for your Home Studio
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/find/newsLetter/ProAudio_ChoosingaStudioMonitor_March2007.jsp

Generic monitor tech, nearfield vs. midfield function etc. Has good placement info & explainations as to "why?".

"doc"

[Valentin]

it is a midfield speaker

based on the size of the drivers in conjunction
Leo Beranek rule of thumb is 3 to 10 times the distance of the radiating area for full integration of the drivers
there is also a formula but i would have to look it up
the sum of the radiating area of your century gold speakers is about 53 cm
(the distance from the tweeter too the woofer)

3 meter away is a nice compromise of course your room plays a big part

nice speakers hope you enjoy them

[mini]

Hallo together.
I listen on a JBL Century Gold. Can anyone told me, for what is the Century Produced? Is it a near or midfield Speaker?
And wich Distance is near or midfield in Meters?
Pleas help.

Thanks Peter

Hi,

let me translate Your question:
a) what is near/midfield at all
b) what kind near/midfield is the century gold
concluding to
c) how do I use it best as I allready own it

(a) At what distance will the sound field change from direct to reverberation. At what distance will room reflections take over. That depends obviously on the room too. Near/midfield definitions are related to standard listening conditions. They are of no use with fidelity at Your home.

(b) I read the ad from JBL. Alas JBL does not give a further note on the directivity of the whole speaker. By design the speaker may suffer from more or less deep notches off axis due to interference and/or narrowinging/widening radiation patterns. That for the C/G can be defined as neither near nor midfield - it has - my personal assumption - no defined directivity. It is not a monitor designed for monitoring situations at recording sites.

(c) The C/G is in the first place designed to satisfy a demand on clear, substancial sound and high esthetics. You are free to simply enjoy. The less You fiddle with technical terms - that in this case won't apply - the more fun You'll have.

by

<edit 0>: some vintage JBL speakers for home use had measured @4pi space a slightly tilted frequency response towards the lower octave. This should be augmented by room influences (eq 2pi space radiation) to give flat response. That was excellent foreseeing engineering as own measurements with very different home grown speakers show nowadays. I remember myself as a youngster argueing with that technique. I wanted bass and more of it. Holy Moses, this company wouldn't give it to me!
But this so far unique bass response of JBL full size monitors may be the reason for the high impact bass response avoiding the common but highly anoing booming. I wonder why the C/G does not reiterate this concept. Is it the current demand for even more breath taking pressure, a more physical impact that came up with CD and MP3-music?

<edit 1>: the tilted, shelved - whatever You may call it - bass response of the older designs can be easyly reproduced by equalisation on demand. Drop a message to ask for it, it's DIY here ;)

[Valentin]

near field midfield etc has many interpretations one of the interpretation and a correct one is



At what distance will the sound field change from direct to reverberation. At what distance will room reflections take over. That depends obviously on the room too. Near/midfield definitions are related to standard listening conditions


But there is also an engineering point of view and its a important one

i am not inventing this up

[mini]

near field midfield etc has many interpretations one of the interpretation and a correct one is

But there is also an engineering point of view and its a important one

i am not inventing this up

Yeah, as mentioned the C/G is engineered neither as a near/ nor a midfield speaker. Somebody recapitulated that in the very beginning. It's a bookshelf speaker for home use with some arbritary and quite often changing listening position. From the engineering perspective the C/G is none of both near/ or midfield. The C/G is supposed to have fun with it.
I'm still wondering why the favorable shallow bass extinction as with the vintage designs is not implemented here. Or is it?

Regards

[Valentin]

Bookshelf speakers should no be placed in bookshelves but their names implies that.

consumer speakers also have design and objectives

century gold speakers are no intended to be used at a distance of one meter o less

As you will see JBL measures their speakers(anechoic) at 2 meters and then correlates this to the 1 meter standard


From: Floyd Toole book Sound Reproduction page 367

When a source is small compared to the measurement distance the sound falls 6db per doubling the distance this is called the far field. What is heard and measured in the near field is difficult to predict and not a reliable indicator of the events in the far field

this is just part of the explanation but you should look it up in to detail :banghead:

Not because a speaker is made for C/G means it defies physics

[BMWCCA]

OK. It looks like everyone agrees one thing they are not is near-field monitors! Right?? Looks to me like the original poster bailed on the discussion pretty much right away. Probably decided his Ti5000's worked fine and he didn't need the Century Golds. :D

[mini]

... but you should look it up in to detail :banghead:

Hi,
what is near/mid/farfield with a source built up from regular speakers plus a subwoofer or two/three ...

The definition doesn't hold. It is derived from the differential equation for the radiation of a circular plain. It's physics. One should be aware whether the concept that physics offers as a basic solution applies to a practical issue.

A three way speaker is not a circular disk.

Ciao

[Valentin]

well well well

so you are saying that this 3 way speaker will sound and measure exactly the same 80cm away than 300 cm away in free field condition


yea right :banghead:

[Hoerninger]

Hi,
what is near/mid/farfield (?)
The definition ... is derived from the differential equation for the radiation of a circular plain. It's physics.
Mini,
with your definition it does not apply to any speaker (-combination) in the real world. :blink:
Good philosophers try to find the junction between theorie and daily life though. :thmbsup:
____________
Peter

[Zilch]

4310, using the same size drivers, was designed as a nearfield monitor.

4310 --> 4311 --> Century L100 --||--> Century Gold.

[Valentin]

in the brochure thy do not mention this use thy just say a more compact system

the concept of near field mixing got in vogue a little latter in time

if you sea the arrangement of the drivers is a lot closer with the tweeter and mid at 90 degrees

century gold have a vertical orientation which means more distance

if you see 4412a brochure it states



for applications requiring maximum low frequency output from a bookshelf size monitor. this 3 way system titley clusters its transducers complement for accurate close proximity listening

[BMWCCA]

if you see 4412a brochure it states
for applications requiring maximum low frequency output from a bookshelf size monitor. this 3 way system tightly clusters its transducers complement for accurate close-proximity listening
Which would seem to imply less difference the further away the listener is from the speakers. I still say you all have determined the CG is NOT a near-field monitor. Whatever else it is is not really that important to how it is enjoyed or employed.

Let the dead-horse beating continue! ;)

[mini]

Let the dead-horse beating continue! ;)


I considered to pull Valentin and Hoerniger into some argument. Just to amuse the native speakers here with broken English from exagerated audio enthusiasts. That would have put me into ridicule too. Then I thought it over. Why not bother Zilch a bit? It would perhaps save him spendings for coffee, keep him upright for free and make the next precious driver next to available (kidding).

For short a kick to the lefts forefoot hoofs base, the horse lies, its dead: The 4311 uses its 12" driver up to 1500Hz while the C/G is more updated in that respect with a crossover at 500Hz. Judged from directivity both concepts appear apart by ages as they literally are. The comparison Zilch posted is questionable so far. The C/G follows todays design patterns that the industry agreed on for home use.

Maximum dispersion over neutral timbre including reverberation field (controlled directivity, as acclaimed by JBL later for 4330 etc). The C/G is not made for solely couch potatoes that prevent from changing position more often than twice a day. C/G may be seen as a workhorse encouraging physical exercise rather than most exhausting listening examination (with a gallantly "test only" connotation, of course).

[Valentin]

Mini

how elegant :applaud:

have a nice day :bouncy:

[Beowulf57]

Perhaps the horse still has some life: interesting to consider the problem I noted when switching from the LX5 (500Hz LF crossover point) to the N1200S (1200Hz LF crossover point) with my D130 (15") / D131 (12") bass drivers and LE85 midrange drivers. The sound became excessively peaked in the midrange with the higher crossover point. Perhaps due in part to "beaming," i.e., a more narrow dispersion pattern of those frequencies by the larger cone drivers?

[Zilch]

4311 was a tighter cluster than 4310:

http://www.audioheritage.org/html/profiles/jbl/l100.htm

The earliest L100s were also vertical in-line.

Do we consider this to have been an experiment which failed? ;)

[4313B]

The earliest L100s were vertical in-line.

Do we consider this to have been an experiment which failed? ;)No.

[Zilch]

No.Rather more like ahead of its time, apparently, seen in the light of Century Gold.... :yes:

[Valentin]

there is no perfect point source an no standard room so any design has it compromises

there are horses for courses

there too many variables and we are concentrating to much in just one of them

[4313B]

Rather more like ahead of its time, apparently, seen in the light of Century Gold.... :yes:The original L100 was the correct implementation, especially in light of the filter design.

[Hoerninger]

I considered to pull Valentin and Hoerniger into some argument. Just to amuse the native speakers here with broken English ...

Mini,

komm mal runter und lass die Luft ab.
Cool down.

[I consider this thread as closed.]
____________
Peter

[Beowulf57]

Oh dear...was I off topic too far? Or simply that no one has any thoughts on my question? :dont-know:offtopic::snore:

[mini]

Mini,

komm mal runter und lass die Luft ab.
Cool down.

[I consider this thread as closed.]
____________
Peter

Hoerniger, I had to tell a thing or two about Your comment regarding me rejecting near/midfield definitions. The philosopher in me, whom You mentioned below, considers audio terms most common ill defined and to often common knowledge as a mirage.

edit > I dropped You a PM.

[mini]

Oh dear...was I off topic too far? Or simply that no one has any thoughts on my question? :dont-know:offtopic::snore:

Hi,

Monitoring is by JBL related to directivity (e/g model 4430/5). Directivity is a complex topic. My own experiences with it are home grown. I never had a genuine JBL box at hands. By now I try to follow the JBL guidelines using mid/large format horns/drivers of JBL provenience. I have to admit, its all due to curiosity.

One thing I know already. If a design incorporates a 12" driver with 1.5kHz crossover it compares different to an other with 500Hz c/o. In other words I can't help You with Your special question. My advice if asked for was to measure what is ment to be heard. Just to clearyfy the situation.

Regards

[Beowulf57]

Thanks for your input...I'll throw my query out in a separate thread.

[Valentin]

a great book on the importance of the directivity of a speaker system can be found here

http://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reproduction-Acoustics-Psychoacoustics-Loudspeakers/dp/0240520092/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228315432&sr=1-1

it is of great importance because the room sound

if you don't have a smooth and constant directivity (in the horizontal plane of most importance) the reflected sound will affect your perception in not a good way

if you have a 12" driver till 1.5khz this driver will have a very hi directivity and when crossed to the mid range the directivity will change to a wider dispersion

in the axis if you measure it can be flat but the spike produced by the hi xo point in 12" driver will be reflected from the room

the book explains it in more educated way (and with correct English):blink:

this affects monitor and consumer designs
jbl has a paper which you can find in the Lansing library

[Beowulf57]

a great book on the importance of the directivity of a speaker system can be found here

http://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reproduction-Acoustics-Psychoacoustics-Loudspeakers/dp/0240520092/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228315432&sr=1-1

it is of great importance because the room sound

if you don't have a smooth and constant directivity (in the horizontal plane of most importance) the reflected sound will affect your perception in not a good way

if you have a 12" driver till 1.5khz this driver will have a very hi directivity and when crossed to the mid range the directivity will change to a wider dispersion

in the axis if you measure it can be flat but the spike produced by the hi xo point in 12" driver will be reflected from the room

the book explains it in more educated way (and with correct English):blink:

this affects monitor and consumer designs
jbl has a paper which you can find in the Lansing library

Thanks Valentin...that's what I was looking for :).

[Robh3606]

Here is what a 12" driver is doing above 640Hz

Rob:)

[Beowulf57]

Thanks Rob. So, between 1-4K, the "beaming" becomes significant(though somewhat mitigated by the 4" aluminum dome in the centre). With the 15" driver, likely even more so. So, this probably contributes a bit to the midrange over-emphasis...but the rising response curve of the D130/D131 between 1-4K is likely the greater culprit.

[Ti 5000]

Wow. So much Answers:D Now I have work for the next two hours to Translate all the thread with my bad Englisch:banghead:
But thanks at all for Info...

[BMWCCA]

Here is what a 12" driver is doing above 640HzJust curious (again!).
Is this a generic plot from a handbook based on some irrefutable law of acoustics? Does it take into account basket depth? Cone angle? Cone material? Excursion? Aluminum dust domes? Do ALL 12" speakers necessarily behave exactly the same, or is this something like assuming all 2-D-cell flashlights, and all automotive 5-3/4" headlamps, put out the same pattern? :dont-know

[Beowulf57]

Just curious (again!).
Is this a generic plot from a handbook based on some irrefutable law of acoustics? Does it take into account basket depth? Cone angle? Cone material? Excursion? Aluminum dust domes? Do ALL 12" speakers necessarily behave exactly the same, or is this something like assuming all 2-D-cell flashlights, and all automotive 5-3/4" headlamps, put out the same pattern? :dont-know

Nope...I read 2206: http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Discrete%20Sales%20Models/2206HJ.pdf

So, not the same as a D130/D131...but what the hey, at least it gives an idea.;)

[BMWCCA]

Nope...I read 2206: http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Discrete%20Sales%20Models/2206HJ.pdf
:confused: I was talking about the dispersion graph above. What are you talking about? Frequency range as listed on the 2206 spec sheet?

[Robh3606]

Is this a generic plot from a handbook based on some irrefutable law of acoustics?

Hello BMWCCA


No

It's a 2206 mounted in a small reflex enclosure in 4Pi/free space. What you are seeing is the simulated resonse based on the on axis frequency response and the edge difraction as determined by the spacing on the baffle and the physical size of the box. Once you get above a certain frequency there is no significant baffle edge difraction so it really doesn't matter what box the driver is mounted in.

That was done in LEAP Enclosure Shop. Attached is a 2Pi simulation where the baffle board in infinite, like inwall mounting. You see the same trend above say 2k or so.

It's not exact per say but a generic 12" should be close. You have to remember that there is a full set of T/S data entered that includes cone area and piston diameter and this all comes into play. Maybe something like one of the older Altec BiFlex drivers, where there is a mechanical crossover in the driver cone, might be modeled incorectly. Based on what I have seen using Crossover Shop I would say that this is as close a simulation as you are going to get.

Rob:)

[BMWCCA]

No

It's a 2206 mounted in a small reflex enclosure in 4Pi/free space.Ahh, thanks. I see the project title 2206 now. But it is computer modeled, so somewhat generic though based on known attributes of that particular driver. Thanks for clearing it up.

Back to the thread's wandering "midfield" question.

[4313B]

Back to the thread's wandering "midfield" question.Page 2 Paragraph 2

http://ccrma.stanford.edu/courses/192b/192b_Lecture_7_06.pdf

[mini]

http://ccrma.stanford.edu/courses/192b/192b_Lecture_7_06.pdf

I might be arrogant to state such, but Stanford is obviously wrong:


"... near field, mid field, and far field.
These terms refer to the listener’s relative perception of the direct to
reflected sound ratio."


From here it starts to become a bit crazy ...


"Near field monitors are desirable in part because their sound is largely
independent of the room, ..."


The contrary is true. Near field monitors have a wide, not in every case regular directivity. The sound is swamped all over the place, and hence reverberated much. From that to stay within the near field is a must to mute the noise against the preferable direct field.


"Mid field monitors are designed to be heard from a longer distance, where the reflected sound and direct sound are about equal."


What for?


"Far-field speakers are designed to “throw” the sound a longer distance from the speaker, where the reverberant field may be stronger than the directly radiated sound."


Ah! What they try to say is: Far field monitors are used because of their narrow directivity pattern. In situations where a near field speaker otherwise would cause to much reverberation. That is the case if the listening position is farther away.


Ain't easy. A good source whilst starting to deal with the tropic of sonic excellence may be Dr. Earl Geddes, "Summa", "Home Theatre": www.gedlee.com (http://www.gedlee.com)

[4313B]

I might be arrogant I think the general perception is that you're merely a troll, nothing more, nothing less... :rotfl:

[BMWCCA]

I know this is the DIY forum and I'm not a card-carrying member at this time, but the concept seems simple as stated in the Stanford link:
Speakers are also classified according to the distance at which they are designed to focus their sound output: near field, mid field, and far field. These terms refer to the listener’s relative perception of the direct to reflected sound ratio. Near-field speakers are designed to be heard in the near field, where the direct sound far exceeds the reflected sound intensity. Near field monitors are desirable in part because their sound is largely independent of the room, hence their popularity for home and project studios where acoustics are often less than perfect. Mid field monitors are designed to be heard from a longer distance, where the reflected sound and direct sound are about equal. Far-field speakers are designed to “throw” the sound a longer distance from the speaker, where the reverberant field may be stronger than the directly radiated sound. Far-field speakers are often soffit or wall mounted in large control rooms. Nearfields are for listening up-close; at the board, straight ahead. Midfields for further back in the room; sitting around the conference table or on a couch in a group. I think the latter pretty much covers the Century Golds which was the original issue of this thread.

JBL adds this description in their 4400 material:
Dispersion (Polar Response Curves):
Like Frequency Response, this specification gives you a clear picture of how the loudspeaker system’s energy balance changes as you move off axis. In most monitoring environments, much of the sound you hear has been reflected at least once off of the various control room surfaces. When the loudspeaker's frequency response curve is smooth and free of significant peaks and dips, the ear will focus on the first arrival sound and hear it as an accurate reproduction of the signal source. However, reflections will also reach the ear, though fractions of a second later. Because of this, it is of equal concern that the energy balance off axis, that which is likely to be reflected, be as smooth and even as possible.Depending on how you interpret this description, it would seem you're both correct! :applaud:

[hjames]

I think the general perception is that you're merely a troll, nothing more, nothing less... :rotfl:

Ping ping ping!
:applaud:


basic internet rule:

Don't feed the troll!

[Beowulf57]

Ping ping ping!
:applaud:


basic internet rule:

Don't feed the troll!


Recommended reading: The AshLad Who had an Eating Match With a Troll (Norwegian Folk Tales)

[Beowulf57]

:confused: I was talking about the dispersion graph above. What are you talking about? Frequency range as listed on the 2206 spec sheet?

Answer to above...below. :D

[mini]

I know this is the DIY forum and I'm not a card-carrying member at this time, but the concept seems simple as stated in the Stanford link:Nearfields are for listening up-close; at the board, straight ahead. Midfields for further back in the room; sitting around the conference table or on a couch in a group. I think the latter pretty much covers the Century Golds which was the original issue of this thread.

JBL adds this description in their 4400 material: Depending on how you interpret this description, it would seem you're both correct! :applaud:

I don't agree. Stanford claims "((true>> Near-field speakers are designed to be heard in the near field, where the direct sound far exceeds the reflected sound intensity. ((wrong>> Near field monitors are desirable in part because their sound is largely independent of the room, ((wrong>> hence their popularity for home and project studios where acoustics are often less than perfect."

This is mixed up completely. Near field monitors have the widest directivity. More room interaction with that. Direct sound domain with "near fielders" ranges up to 3 feet from the speakers. Farther than that the "less than perfect" acoustics will take over - by definition!

What is ment with the terms reverberant field vs. direct field is explained very popular by geddes (www.gedlee.com (http://www.gedlee.com)). To understand the concept by first principles is mandatory to get the clue with near/far monitoring. To try to expain that very basic concepts within a JBL dedicated discussion is waste of time and in the end - useless.

My suggestion is - repeatedly - to understand the label "near/farfield"-monitor as brief hint for what specific listening situation the device is intended. It is in any case related to a studio environment. Home listening is a very different setting and so the wording does simply not apply.

Regarding JBLs 4400 paper: groundbreaking. But nowadays a little outdated. The requirements are more demanding today. For serious monitoring regardless of C.D. or not (the "not" does not even come into consideration today) the direct field is preferred. Reverberation should be attenuated to ~ -10 .. 20dB related to direct sound.

The "troll"

[BMWCCA]

It is in any case related to a studio environment. Home listening is a very different setting and so the wording does simply not apply. Umm, didn't I say that a week ago, here (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=229573&postcount=4)?

[4313B]

Depending on how you interpret this descriptionEvidently.
Umm, didn't I say that a week ago, here (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=229573&postcount=4)?:yes:


Hallo together.
I listen on a JBL Century Gold. Can anyone told me, for what is the Century Produced? Is it a near or midfield Speaker?
And wich Distance is near or midfield in Meters?
Pleas help.

Thanks PeterThe Century Gold is a JBL Consumer loudspeaker system intended for use in the "typical" consumer living room. As with most JBL Consumer systems it would be considered "midfield".

The distance in meters is typically 3.



It's too bad the floor standing version never made it to production.

[mini]

Umm, didn't I say that a week ago, here (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=229573&postcount=4)?

Me 2. But reiterating people try to press the Century Gold into a role it doesn't fit. At last (by now) again the C/G is named as a "midfield" by experts. That's by definition something in between. Neither nor something. Audio terms prove ill defined most often. The essence changes with the person that uses them, as to say by sympathy.

The Troll

[4313B]

Me 2. But reiterating people try to press the Century Gold into a role it doesn't fit. At last (by now) again the C/G is named as a "midfield" by experts. That's by definition something in between. Neither nor something. Audio terms prove ill defined most often. The essence changes with the person that uses them, as to say by sympathy.

The TrollWho's pressing the Century Gold into a role it doesn't fit? We all know perfectly well what to do with a pair. You seem to be at a loss and I'm not sure how I can help you.

Based on feedback with respect to your PM's I will kindly remind you of this post -

Fortunately, as the wise Nelson Pass has said, this is for entertainment... so enjoy it and try not to piss people off. Your naysaying comments are not a particularly good way to make friends here. If you personally find it hard to believe that these systems might work and you must shout about it publicly, why not go to the Klipsch Forum and tell them how bad JBLs sound based on your theories... I am sure you'll get a warmer reception there.

If you never read, and comprehend, another paragraph on this website again you should at least read the preceeding one and take it to heart. It is the best possible advice I can offer you at this juncture. :)