Line Conditioners

[elwood127]

Hey all, I may be preaching to the choir but here goes. I just read a thread in the "Amp" section telling of the amazing difference in sound quality when using a conditioner. I took the "Trip lite" unit off my pc and hooked it up. I gotta tell you, the clarity difference is significant. At low volume it's completely clear and bright. If you haven't got a line conditioner you're missing out. LHF is a wonderful thing.:applaud:

[jcrobso]

I believe in a good surge suppressor, they are very necessary.
Any time in my life that I have scoped the AC line all I have ever seen is a pure sine wave. One time I plugged in an electric drill to the same plug that I was scoping and turned on the drill, all I saw was the AC sine wave. John

[tom_h]

I plug the TV and stereo into a power conditioner and both are improved. My hearing may not be as good as younger folks and you could argue that my hearing an improvement in sound is off track, but seeing a better picture on tv is conclusive. There is something going on with line noise and a power conditioner does filter it out.

Keep in mind that a surge protector may not do any filtering or maybe very little filtering, so an experiment with a pure surge protector may not be the last word on possible improvements.

That said, I got my power conditioner from someone selling their unit at a deep discount, so maybe they felt it was not doing anything and was a waste of money. Powerline noise may not be a problem for everyone but it seems like a lot of people have problems and get help with a unit like this. YMMV, but do give it a try as the results are easily seen/heard. I am happy with the results I got.

[BMWCCA]

Do you suppose something like this would kill many birds with one stone?

No affiliation, just interested:

https://www.carvinguitars.com/products/single.php?product=AC120S


The AC120S Power Conditioner/Sequencer is a universal AC distribution control center that is capable of five major functions: (1) 10 stage microprocessor controlled SEQUENTIAL power-up, (2) 10 AC outlets/stages, (3) Voltage spike protection, (4) LED tube rack lighting, and (5) Pure Power dual EMI/RFI AC line filtering. Without question, the AC120S is the most advanced and comprehensive unit providing protection, while making the AC voltage operation of your rack more controllable and failsafe. No rack should be without the AC120S.http://www.infocomm.org/cps/rde/xbcr/infocomm/Carvin-AC120S-frnt-bck.jpg

[jcrobso]

It can sequence up the preamp/mixer first then the power amps. For a home system I would not have any problem using this unit.
You watch the line voltage drop on the LCD display when you crank you system up.;) John

[hjames]

well, this is like the Adcom unit I just added to my system ...
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=227989&postcount=147

Adcom ACE-515 AC Enhancer, equipment sequencer

basically claims to have all kinds of line filtering and protections, plus - it has 2 major AC outlets for my power amps, and a number of minor ones for lesser gear (Accessories). Has a light power cord for "sensing" that I plug into the switched outlet on my receiver (used as preamp).

When I power up the receiver, it nearly immediately powers on the accessories outlets (Ashley crossover), and 10 seonds later, it powers on the JBL Power amps.
When I power DOWN the receiver, it immediately powers down the power amps, then, 30 seonds later, it powers down the accesory outlets.

Foolproof!

[scott fitlin]

Me, I may like a good line conditiooner for the front end of my system, preamp, EQ,s, xovers, but my amps stay plugged directly to the outlet. MOST consumer grade, low cost line conditoners actually take away from amplifier performance, as many amps draw alot of current, and plugging your amplifier into a device that has a transformer, or other line filtering components can tend to cause a lag time, or not be able to deliver enough current to the amp, especially if your using high power amps that draw alot of AC power.

The audible effects of this are softening of the dynamics, and thinner sounding bass.

There are line filtering devices that ARE up to the task of delivering high current to high power amps, and generally, the VERY GOOD ones, the ones that may really work, are EXPENSIVE! VERY!

There is one thing I DO know works, Equitech balanced power. This type of line filtering converts 120v AC to 2 legs of + and - 60 volts, with ground, excatly like the theory behind balancing audio interconnects.

They have small rack mount devices, and complete, commercial wall unit breaker panels up to 200 amp capability. Again, cost will dictate what one will do, and how far they go!

IMO, you should try one, something in the price range your willing to spend, take it home for a week, and give it a go, before you just buy.

[Mr. Widget]

There is one thing I DO know works, Equitech balanced power. This type of line filtering converts 120v AC to 2 legs of + and - 60 volts, with ground, excatly like the theory behind balancing audio interconnects.Furman makes a 20 amp version for around 2 grand... it is outstanding... but it is 2 grand. That said, some people spend that kind of money on wire. I am sure this is more likely to give you an audible improvement and it certainly will give you outstanding protection from lightning etc.


Widget

[scott fitlin]

Yes, That Furman came out a while ago, but the Equitech balanced power is still better to my ears, and Furman also has a 30 amp version too.

But, you see the difference in price from the $125.00 Furmans to this?

ALL utilty power has transient spikes, as high as 5000v, and your power company can put a transient surge suppressor on your homes electricity, right where it enters your home, COVERS YOUR ENTIRE BUILDING, not just your system!

Lightning arrestors are also available, and DO NOT HAVE TO COST $2000 to have quality protection!

When It comes to this, I had problems several years ago, had a professional leave a Dranitz Blue Box with chart recorder on all 3 phases of my service, with a professional analysis of my incoming AC, this was a professional service and cost a few dollars, but, THIS company will tell you exactly whats goin on or coming in to your breaker panel! Noise and harmonics analysis too.YES, there are harmonics present in AC power too.

NY,s Con Edison has a Power Quality dept, they can have lightning arrestors, transient surge protecgtion, and harmonics, and noise filtration put on your AC service, and believe it or not, utility companies gear is as good, if NOT better, than THE BEST consumer grade devices available. Their boxes may look ugly, and utlitarian, but, you won't see it at your service main, and the equipment they have, is the BEST that can be bought! BELIEVE THAT, as THEY can spend more than us, and NOT sweat it.

Equiteh has 20 and 30 amp units, rack mountable, and freestanding available, check out their gear, www.equitech.com (http://www.equitech.com).

Also, interesting to note, is PS Audio,s Power regeneration plants! These devices take your walls AC, convert it DC, then resynthesizes clean, pure perfect sinewave 120v AC, AND allows the user to change the line frequency, as some find their systems sound better with 120v, 90hz, as opposed to the standard 60hz, even allows you to go up to 400HZ. Not recommended to have devices plugged into it, if you change line frequency, that require the 60hz frequency for motor servos to operate correctly, i.e.; turntables, CD players, tape decks. I had the original PS Audio Power Plant unit, its like an amplifier, and did make a difference, BUT, got too hot, and would thermal out, had to return it. They have since resolved these problems, and have nice units available, also pricey! www.psaudio.com (http://www.psaudio.com).

[hjames]

But, you see the difference in price from the $125.00 Furmans to this?

ALL utilty power has transient spikes, as high as 5000v, and your power company can put a transient surge suppressor on your homes electricity, right where it enters your home, COVERS YOUR ENTIRE BUILDING, not just your system!

Lightning arrestors are also available, and DO NOT HAVE TO COST $2000 to have quality protection!

When It comes to this, I had problems several years ago, had a professional leave a Dranitz Blue Box with chart recorder on all 3 phases of my service, with a professional analysis of my incoming AC, this was a professional service and cost a few dollars, but, THIS company will tell you exactly whats goin on or coming in to your breaker panel! Noise and harmonics analysis too.YES, there are harmonics present in AC power too.

NY,s Con Edison has a Power Quality dept, they can have lightning arrestors, transient surge protecgtion, and harmonics, and noise filtration put on your AC service, and believe it or not, utility companies gear is as good, if NOT better, than THE BEST consumer grade devices available. Their boxes may look ugly, and utlitarian, but, you won't see it at your service main, and the equipment they have, is the BEST that can be bought! BELIEVE THAT, as THEY can spend more than us, and NOT sweat it.

Equiteh has 20 and 30 amp units, rack mountable, and freestanding available, check out their gear, www.equitech.com (http://www.equitech.com).

Also, interesting to note, is PS Audio,s Power regeneration plants! These devices take your walls AC, convert it DC, then resynthesizes clean, pure perfect sinewave 120v AC, AND allows the user to change the line frequency, as some find their systems sound better with 120v, 90hz, as opposed to the standard 60hz, even allows you to go up to 400HZ. Not recommended to have devices plugged into it, if you change line frequency, that require the 60hz frequency for motor servos to operate correctly, i.e.; turntables, CD players, tape decks. I had the original PS Audio Power Plant unit, its like an amplifier, and did make a difference, BUT, got too hot, and would thermal out, had to return it. They have since resolved these problems, and have nice units available, also pricey! www.psaudio.com (http://www.psaudio.com).

Sure - when I worked with Cable TV Montgomery, and now with that gov't agency, we use Leibert Power Conditioners/UPS Systems. (http://www.liebert.com/product_pages/MainCategory.aspx?id=2)
(http://www.liebert.com/product_pages/MainCategory.aspx?id=2)These things are high level conditioners - the mains go into them, they are constantly charging internal batteries and such, and the entire room of equipment is connected to their output. When there is a brown-out, ripples or power-drops, the outputs are unchanged.

Absolutely required to protect 64 channels of sat receivers, modulators, fiber optic transmitters and such. Absolutely required for a room full of blade servers, and all the related telecom gear ...

But way outta my league for home listening ...:)

[scott fitlin]

Hospitals also have serious mega buck line conditioning, and UPS, and bak up generators, too.

While Leibert is SUPER expensive, the Equitech 100amp and 200amp wall cabinets are a bit more down to earth pricewise. Still in the multi thousands, though.

My take, is IF your going to run amps from conditioned, filtered power, SIZE matters, bigger transformers, etc. So, say a crown macro tech 2400 needs a 20amp dedicated breaker of it's own, I would oversize my power conditioning and use a 30 amp rated unit.

So, if I were going to run my amps from conditioned power, the equitech 200amp wall cab makes perfect sense.

I went over to the Furman website, they no longer make the 30amp model, however, they now offer in wall units, these are in the form of a quad box receptacle form, with two or 1 outlets, which again, makes sense to me, breaker wired into filtered, conditioned, protected outlets, NO BULKY amp size unit, plugged into wall, gear plugged into unit. Interesting. www.furmansound.com (http://www.furmansound.com)

[jblsound]

imo, power conditioners are just as useless as those cords. But then again I don't have $100k speakers either.

[Ducatista47]

But way outta my league for home listening ...:)

That is my reaction too, about the entire issue of when this protection is needed and by who. If the power coming through the service entrance to my home poised a threat to my equipment, that would be one thing. If it might compromise my listening experience from time to time but did not endanger my hardware, that would be a scenario of lesser proportions. I fully understand the need in professional applications like Eldorado, and certainly in hospitals and communications centers, but at home?

I cannot offer hard evidence, but I suspect that harmonics, minor noise and voltage fluctuations and the like sometimes have an effect on the audio output; I also suspect the effect is usually or always inaudible. Lacking proof, I put it in the category of highly subjective perceptions by listeners.

Realistically, how much of this would get past a competent power supply? If the ripple went up .01% no one could hear it. Whoever says they can, the $3000/foot interconnect guys would like to have your address. ;)

I am concerned about major surges from the power grid or lightning. I use a whole house Square D surge box, as well as the usual smaller line units, for my computer and audio AC. http://ecatalog.squared.com/fulldetail.cfm?partnumber=SDSB1175C I bought it at Menard's for $200 a few years ago. It also contains one time, replaceable lightning arrestor functionality.


A company with really nice yet affordable products has my attention. Their cans mount outside the service panel in the usual punch out holes. If they totally blow out, there is no mess inside the box. Less than completely catastrophic lightning episodes (that would be less than 60,000 amps) are handled an unlimited number of times. The reaction times are a few nanoseconds. http://www.deltala.com/prod02.htm Go ahead, blow a whopping $50 and actually safeguard your equipment and home from what can actually kill it. I was once asked to troubleshoot a cheap stereo receiver. When my ohmmeter indicated that the transformer was completely fused, I asked what the story was. The trailer it provided music for was struck by lightning!

I used to have a really nice toy, but someone I trusted borrowed it many years ago and it is gone. It was a Sola CV (Constant Voltage) Transformer. Now that was slick! It must have weighed sixty pounds. http://www.sola-hevi-duty.com/products/powerconditioning/cvs.htm

Clark

[Mr. Widget]

imo, power conditioners are just as useless as those cords. But then again I don't have $100k speakers either.I think it depends on the "conditioner" as well as the quality of your incoming power... living in a commercial area of San Francisco, my voltage swings could be 20 volts over a 24hr period and god knows what sorts of transients and other noise might be on the lines...


Widget

[timc]

I think it depends on the "conditioner" as well as the quality of your incoming power... living in a commercial area of San Francisco, my voltage swings could be 20 volts over a 24hr period and god knows what sorts of transients and other noise might be on the lines...


Widget


I fully agree with you Widget. When it comes to power conditioners and similar stuff, i use to say to people who asks my oppinion that you can't fix a problem that isn't there.

Personally i have had great results with the active Power Plants from PS-Audio.

Passive series filter i found never worked for me. Too bad the PP's is so darn exspensive.



-Tim

[SEAWOLF97]

anyone have comment on this one ? its about my needs range and price.

http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?div=01&id=M-8x

[scott fitlin]

I had a power quality analysis done back in 99, and IF you saw how many times a day, every day, your gear was hit with transient voltage spikes you wouldn't believe it. BUT, as much as THIS HAPPENS EVERYWHERE my gear kept working and didn't fail.

We had an overvoltage condition, and late in the night, usually 12midnight, and beyond, as well as winter when Coney Island is quiet, my voltage was reaching 138v, 1 leg to neutral. Turned out to be on Con Ed,s side, the transformer that feeds my block had a faulty automatic switch, this would raise and lower the voltage according to demand. So, when you had a HOT 99 degree sat aft, in July, air conditioning going everywhere, And demand causing voltage drop, the transformer maintained 120v power to this area. Problems was switch wasn't returning to normal at night as demand dropped, so voltage rose beyond 10% spec for 120v power.

They replace the ones in the seaside areas more often than in the city or non seaside areas, but, they don't replace these until THEY ar scheduled too.

One day, they had a crane truck and crews, they took the tranformer from the sidewalk vault, man, this thing is the size of a car! Replaced with new transformer, HAVEN't had voltage problems since.

I have much electrical, and electronic equipment in the building, arcade games, etc, the stuff wasn't breaking, though. However, i tried many power condtioning devices, and regulator units too, nohing helped, cause my system is TOO BIG to have on one unit, and I was just finding out about equitechs wall units, but, then Con Ed changed the transformer, no more problem, so, I held on to my money and never bought the big cabinet, but, I was about too!

[scott fitlin]

anyone have comment on this one ? its about my needs range and price.

http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?div=01&id=M-8xDecent, 15A unit. I would only plug front end of system into this, NOT amplifiers.

[jblsound]

I'm going off experience of about 4 years ago. As I knew BB has a 30 day return, I bought a $500 Monster PC. That was about the middle priced unit.
For 30 days I had in/out of the system and neither heard or saw any improvement.
So either I have extremely clean power, or its all bogus.

When I took it back, the guy asked why, I told him. He said its also a surge protector. I told him I could buy one for $30 and save $470.

[scott fitlin]

I fully agree with you Widget. When it comes to power conditioners and similar stuff, i use to say to people who asks my oppinion that you can't fix a problem that isn't there.

Personally i have had great results with the active Power Plants from PS-Audio.

Passive series filter i found never worked for me. Too bad the PP's is so darn exspensive.



-TimTim, I also thought the Power Plant worked. But, the original Power plant, man that thing used to heat up, and thermal.

As Widget says, in a commercial area, and Im in a commercial area too, the voltage swings.....

I also, OTOH, feel " Don't fix what ain't broke " too! So, since problems I am not having, I'm not fixing it today, either!

I look at the TOTL Power plant, I would like to try it, see what it does.

Do you run yours 60hz? or do you change the line frequency?

[Mr. Widget]

I bought a $500 Monster PC.Ah, I see...

They don't make they types of products we're talking about... they sell shiny rack mountable faceplates with pretty lights. ;)


Widget

[scott fitlin]

Ah, I see...

They don't make they types of products we're talking about... they sell shiny rack mountable faceplates with pretty lights. ;)


Widget:applaud:

[timc]

Tim, I also thought the Power Plant worked. But, the original Power plant, man that thing used to heat up, and thermal.

As Widget says, in a commercial area, and Im in a commercial area too, the voltage swings.....

I also, OTOH, feel " Don't fix what ain't broke " too! So, since problems I am not having, I'm not fixing it today, either!

I look at the TOTL Power plant, I would like to try it, see what it does.

Do you run yours 60hz? or do you change the line frequency?


I dont own a PP Scott. I worked at a store that sold them and brought one home for testing. I found it worked. This was the PP-500. The new PP-Premier i have tested at a friend and it does the same, but can take much higher current. Both were tested at 50Hz wich is the standard freq in Norway.

However there is one thing i would like to say. Don't bother with theese "tweaks" untill your system is well balanced and you truly believe that spending $$$ on such a unit is where you get the most for your money.

At the time i tested it i owned a McIntosh MC-402, dCS-Delius and some linesource speakers produced by the company i worked for, and if i could afford it, I would probably bought it. I had to sell the system to finance my studies, but i belive that if i had not gotten into the position i did, having to get rid of everything, I would have sold the speakers. Kept the electronics and bought a pair of Array 1400 or a set of used S5500.


-Tim

[scott fitlin]

Actually, my system works really well, we have amazing sound.

I just like playing with toys, too!

To tell you the truth, I am a BIG fan of having my amps plugged directly into the wall, I find I get the bst performance from them this way, ESPECIALLY transient punch.

Of the power filter, and conditioning units I have tried, I always felt, that while they do change the sound SLIGHTLY, it also softened the dynamic presntation of the music as well.

I ran a crown I tech 4000 last summer, it has circuitry to shut the amp down in the event of voltage exceeding safe conditions, and IT NEVER ONCE SHUT DOWN!

So, once again, "Since IT ain't broke, I AIN'T fixing it"

:bouncy:

[SEAWOLF97]

Decent, 15A unit. I would only plug front end of system into this, NOT amplifiers.

does that mean second unit for amps only ?

or did you answer this in another thread ?




To tell you the truth, I am a BIG fan of having my amps plugged directly into the wall, I find I get the bst performance from them this way, ESPECIALLY transient punch.
:bouncy:

[jblsound]

Ah, I see...

They don't make they types of products we're talking about... they sell shiny rack mountable faceplates with pretty lights. ;)


Widget
What about the Richard Grey Power Company? I've seen those, never tried one though.

As for the Monster I bought, I would have been surprised if it had improved the A/V.

[scott fitlin]

does that mean second unit for amps only ?IF you gonna do it, thats how i think, OR the big wall panels.

But, I know many an engineer, and designer who say like I say, amps belong plugged into the wall.

Try before you buy!

[scott fitlin]

What about the Richard Grey Power Company? I've seen those, never tried one though.

As for the Monster I bought, I would have been surprised if it had improved the A/V.I have one of these, its ok, and i don't use it either!

Wanna buy it?

[SEAWOLF97]

anyone have comment on this one ? its about my needs range and price.

http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?div=01&id=M-8x


Decent, 15A unit. I would only plug front end of system into this, NOT amplifiers.

I ordered one of these .
seems that I get pops and noises from various electrical devices around the house thru the speakers ( especially pops from the 3 fans on the woodstove, when turning them off - tho they are on a different circuit across the room) ....
has a 3 year warranty and was cheaper than eBay..
We have lots of power blips & outages in the winter or when some drunk crashes their car (or whomevers they stole) into power poles...
Hoping it will do some good, and will report back once it is in...:)

http://www.buy.com/prod/furman-m-8x-merit-x-series-m-8x-power-conditioner/q/loc/111/207465202.html

FURMAN M-8x Merit X Series M-8x Power Conditioner

Featureshttp://ak.buy.com/buy_assets/v6/july/dot2.gifAC noise filtering reduces radio frequency (RFI) & electromagnetic interference (EMI) http://ak.buy.com/buy_assets/v6/july/dot2.gif Spike & surge protection ensures equipment stays safe & power stays clean http://ak.buy.com/buy_assets/v6/july/dot2.gif 8 rear-panel outlets & 1 front-panel outlet http://ak.buy.com/buy_assets/v6/july/dot2.gif 15 amp rating with circuit breaker http://ak.buy.com/buy_assets/v6/july/dot2.gif Protection OK indicator http://ak.buy.com/buy_assets/v6/july/dot2.gif Front-panel LED indicates equipment protection status http://ak.buy.com/buy_assets/v6/july/dot2.gif Adapter spacing indicator http://ak.buy.com/buy_assets/v6/july/dot2.gif Rear outlets spaced to accommodate even the bulkiest adapters

[1audiohack]

Short story, woke up one morning to a rack with no power, didn't think much about it and went to work.

That night I discovered two tripped breakers, both 220V 30A, one the dedicated audio circuit, the other the air compressor in the garage. Flipped them both on and music, no air. On inspection the control board of the compressor had two BLOWN MOV's, they are located two inches from the boards power connector so the trace was also burnt off the board, easy fix, on to the stereo.

I also at the time had two Adcom ACE515's for sequencing. (I never could hear or see any difference with its "AC enhancing circuitry" so they just ran a big external relay for the amps. One of them also had all the MOV's blown off the board.

The good news is even though the amps were not directly protected, the MOV array swallowed the spike, (one leg only) and tripped the breaker to all of it. About $15.00 at the electronics store repaired it all.

Now I have a Furman 120ASD and would recomend it to anyone with a lot of power to sequence.

At least have something on the circuit with a strong enough MOV bank to trip the supply breaker if and when you get hit.

OK, so its not short a story.

[Ducatista47]

Perhaps I am getting this all wrong, but is most of the concern here about surges and spikes from outside the house or business? If so, protect the service entrance first. From Square D:

"A damaging transient voltage can enter a facility from several locations. The highest level of protection should be provided at the service entrance. A second level of protection should be provided at distribution points serving critical areas, for example, computer rooms, accounting areas, and laboratories. Other facility entry points that should be protected include panels serving outdoor lights or outdoor equipment, such as motors. Protection should also be provided for critical areas with sensitive
equipment essential to the company."

Letting that crap into the house and then trying to keep it from your most expensive/sensitive gear while the rest of your home is vulnerable seems wrongheaded to me. I use that "second level of protection" too, but I would never rely on it alone, or to handle the really major threats.

Clark

[SEAWOLF97]

The highest level of protection should be provided at the service entrance.

so how do you go abt that with a standard house with standard electrical service ?

[Ducatista47]

so how do you go abt that with a standard house with standard electrical service ?

I touched on it in post #13. I have an ordinary home with ordinary three wire service. At the local Menard's I obtained a service panel surge protector, basically a whole house unit. (Square D SDSB1175C Load Center, the Surgebreaker Plus.)

It came with easy instructions and I installed it hanging off the bottom of the service panel (circuit breaker box). There is a green light to demonstrate its continued protection. The main unit of protection is a small replaceable module, two or three inches square. Huge, it should be noted, as compared to the units in all the equipment sold to home audio users. This particular unit also has protection built in for telephone and TV antenna and cable lines. The only other things that commonly enter a home, gas and water lines, are already completely grounded - the Commonwealth "earthed" is more descriptive here - and need no further protection, for or from. When I paid $200US for one, it was an awful lot of money for me, but I had wanted a whole house surge suppressor for as long as I could remember.

By the way, imho, Square D is the class act of electrical distribution, better than Cuttler-Hammer and Siemens. When we purchased this house I was happy to see a Square D QO (professional) series load center, better even than the Homeline series. When I wired my wife's Jacuzzi it was Square D from the box to the tub.

The products from Delta are less expensive and quite different, but very effective in their role. I really need to get one of their units. They used to market carbon blowout cans for lightning protection, if I remember right, but their current offerings seem like a really smart idea, silicon oxide varistors. Don't ask me, I need to do my homework too.

A caution. When working in a load center, do like the smart old timers did and keep one hand in your pocket. That way if you do become a ground, the circuit in your body will usually bypass the chest cavity.

Clark

[Ducatista47]

A couple of links about these devices. The more subtle units designed to handle smaller surges - not lightning - are known as Surge Capacitors. The heavier units serve as lightning arrestors.

http://todayztechnology.com/whatsnew.htm#SOVs

http://todayztechnology.com/WHY%20A%20%20SILICON%20ARRESTOR%20IS%20MORE%20EFFE CTIVE.pdf

What I am still figuring out is how to deploy these devices in the home circuit for maximum effect on spikes and surges generated inside the home, as from motors and compressors in our appliances and HVAC systems starting up and shutting off.

[SEAWOLF97]

The Furman conditioner showed up early today on my porch , unpacked and installed ...I dont know about all the features , but the EMI filters do work...

powered the woodstove fans up & down with nary a pop thru the 250ti's .... at least it takes that little worry of my list :D

the house was built in '59 and none of the outlets are 3 prong ...I've slowly been changing them out, but always wondered if they were properly grounded and had thots of another project ,, but the Furman supposedly will not light up the PROTECTED led , without a good ground,,it lit just fine.

[pinguin]

As Seawolf mentioned: A line conditioner may have a lot of features but at least an EMI filter should be installed. That's exactly what I need but a lot of things are very unclear to me. So I'd like to jump in with my questions. I'd like to apologize if they're somewhat simple but I'm not a tech:

Do manufacturers like Furman develop their specific filter design or do they simply use industry standard products? I assume the latter in particular for the cheaper conditioners (top of line is out of reach for me). May I ask those of you operating a conditioner about your experience? Did you have a look inside?

Here in Germany I know of some high end manufacturers that simply use industry standard filters give them a nice housing and sell them for a lot of money. E.g. products of Schaffner or Schurter can be found quite often inside. These companies publish all circuit details and filter attenuation on their websites:

http://www.schaffner.com/en/index.asp?language_id=12&dhtml=1
http://www.schurter.ch/products/emc_overview.asp?language_id=10

All these filters are essentially a combination of inductors and capacitors. And the higher the current provided the less is filter attenuation in particular in the audible range between 10-20khz. See e.g. the FN2070 two stage filter

http://www.schaffner.com/components/en/_pdf/Datasheet%20FN2070%20e%2055.pdf

At 1 amp power level this filter provides very high attenuation but the 25 amp type gives much less. For one stage filters it's much worse for both low and high power capacity. So I fully agree with Scott. Filters in front of a power amp might not be that useful. You may oversize them to avoid a lack of power but there still may be a risk and their attenuation is low. Therefore my question to the conditioner's users: Did anyone check whether there is one filter for all outlets or has each outlet an individual filter? Several small filters covering 1-3 amp should do a better job than one for 10-20 amp. Additionally dirt created by a CD-player can't influence other parts of the system any more.

Now I've got some arguments for an individual filter in front of each device. But which one to choose when going with the industrial ones? I know the FN2070 mentioned above is used in audio applications. But what makes the difference to the FN2060?

http://www.schaffner.com/components/en/_pdf/Datasheet%20FN2060%20e%2054.pdf

Obviously the values of the installed capacitors and inductors are different but when comparing filter attenuation the graphs are very much the same. Could please anybody tell me why the FN2070 is preferable to the FN2060? I know the former is used in audio applications and the latter is not. But I don't know about the results. Additionally I've got the recommendation to choose the medical version without the Cy capacitors to avoid multiple grounding. Plausible at first glance but true? By this filter attenuation is worsened too.

Background of my question is that I have a professional monitoring/routing system as preamp having it's own filter on board. This one didn't harmonize with the filter I had in front of my whole system (and did a good job before). In the retrospect this is quite plausible: Capacitors and inductors can build up an oscillation circuit and in consequence sound may become awful. Therefore I'm searching for a solution hat provides each device with the appropriate filter. Could a line conditioner do the job? Or should I go with industrial filters and if so which type?

All helpful comments would be highly appreciated.
Ralph

[Ducatista47]

According to this site http://www.engineersedge.com/instrumentation/components/emi_filter.htm an EMI filter blocks radio frequencies generated by other equipment on the line or intercepted by power cords acting as antennas. Basically low pass frequency filters, you are correct that they do nothing for voltage regulation or surge protection.

Ideally, an EMI filter would be supplemented by voltage and surge protections and would be the least important of the three for equipment protection. I suppose if a solid state amp with an inferior power supply were used, and this category would include some very expensive gear, then an EMI filter might help prevent some sonic unpleasantness.

I suspect you are correct that most Power Conditioners are inexpensive off the shelf parts that perform these functions, in a nice looking box. Worse yet, they might not even offer some of the important protections, just cheap filters. I can't offer personal evaluations because I would never buy those boxes. I don't trust pretty cases that don't weigh much but cost a lot. Some might actually be worth the money, but I would think they would be industrial or professional products, not units aimed at the home audio market where hugely overpriced gear is the norm rather than the exception.

Let us recognize that home audio offers much opportunity for anyone who is willing to pay hundreds or thousands of dollars (or Euros) for a few dollars worth of electronics or wire. For wire, make that a few cents worth.

If your system is expensive, professional or important, I would suggest installing separate surge protection - off topic I realize - upstream, preferably at the service entrance; voltage regulation in a dedicated unit (these are good http://www.sola-hevi-duty.com/products/powerconditioning/cvs.htm and while a US division, a nice German company. For all I know they could be made in DE); and one of those inexpensive but good EMI filters that you already know about on the circuit for the audio electronics. I suppose some of the better off the shelf power strip type surge protectors might have an EMI filter built in, and the small surge protector included would be a nice secondary level of protection.

Edit: A quick look at APC's surge strips indicates that all models have EMI filters as well as surge protection. This puts the prices of much dedicated audio gear under suspicion, at least. An outlet surge protector is only one step up from a power strip. The Furman MX-8, for instance, offers only surge and EMI filter protection. In other words, equivalent to a good surge strip. In a pretty case.

Clark

[Ducatista47]

...to clear up myths and misinformation. Related to computers but generally applicable. Try this on for size:

"It has been claimed that common mode noise of levels of less than one volt on the AC power supplied to computer equipment can result in damage or malfunction. These claims are used to promote the sale of isolation transformers or "power conditioners". Closer analysis indicates that these claims are unfounded and not based on scientific fact." (From the second link) It goes on to demonstrate that any power supply with an isolation transformer can not transmit power line noise. So much for power conditioners for data equipment.


Some basic stuff

http://www.apcmedia.com/salestools/VAVR-5WKLPK_R0_EN.pdf

http://www.apcmedia.com/salestools/ASTE-5T3TSZ_R1_EN.pdf

http://www.apcmedia.com/salestools/SADE-5TNQZ5_R0_EN.pdf

http://www.apcmedia.com/salestools/SADE-5TNQYL_R0_EN.pdf

http://www.apcmedia.com/salestools/SADE-5TNQYQ_R0_EN.pdf


Ground Loops ("Inter-system ground noise is not the same as common mode noise")

http://www.apcmedia.com/salestools/FLUU-5T3TLT_R1_EN.pdf

Watts vs VA

http://www.apcmedia.com/salestools/SADE-5TNQYF_R0_EN.pdf

Power Factor, Surge and Crest

http://www.apcmedia.com/salestools/SADE-5TNQYL_R0_EN.pdf

I think anyone reading this post will find the first, second and sixth links "must read." The first link banishes audiophile babel used to describe power problems by defining them in engineering terms.

Notice that while the end table lists "Power Conditioners" as solutions for voltage problems, they are referring to industrial units which include constant voltage devices. The audio units being discussed in this thread generally do not. (A look at the entire Furman line yielded only overvoltage shutdown protection on higher models, but no actual voltage regulation anywhere.) APC does have small stand alone CV units, so they are out there. When I was running a darkroom, I used the Sola industrial unit and I was not sorry. They keep voltage to within 1% of target.

While these White Papers are indeed sales tools, the source is strictly IEEE, not marketing departments. I triple E is the most trusted source of electrical and electronic knowledge in the world.

Clark