Vote for most important "Lansing" inovation

[robertbartsch]

OK, lets have your view of the most significant Lansing inovation that transformed the transducer market. Obviously, your choice can include Altec or JBL inovations or their predessessor or related companies (Bell Labs, Western Electric, etc.).

I can't begin to list them all here but a few that come to mind might include these:


Cast not stamped frames
Alnico V magnets
Ceramic magnets
Titanium diaphrams
Edge wound voice coils
Multi-cell horns
Aluminum voice coils
Compression drivers
Horn loaded bass cabs
Bi-amped systems
Tangerene phase plugs
Foam surrounds
Machined pole plates
Du-Plex drivers (e.g., Altec 604s)
Phase aligned drivers

[louped garouv]

how about industrial quality build specs?

[Titanium Dome]

Elliptical Oblate Spheroid

[demon]

jbl blue of course. very innovative!

"i like!"

:applaud:
mikey



ps: ok, well. its not quite part of the transducerissue.

[pos]

biradial horns (2344)
charge-coupled networks
2.1 concept (L212)
multiple subs concept
aquaplas for cones and compression drivers
horn lens
IET tuning (M9500)
resonant hipass at a low tuning frequency (B460 with Bx63)
2.5 way speakers (4435) ?
asymetrical horns (4660/Everest)
digital filtering for studio monitors (DMS-1)

[Hoerninger]

... or related companies
Do you mean speaker related or US related. Anyway, the following paper shows what was already known in the early days in 1933, very intriguing:
http://www.aes.org/aeshc/docs/bell.labs/auditoryperspective.pdf
____________
Peter

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=17802&stc=1&d=1156708905

[robertbartsch]

My first choice would be the edge wound voice coils.

Back in the early days of high fidelity, low powered amps, many of which were tube designs with 10 to 25 watts of power, were the norm. The edge wound voice coils and strong magnets allowed Altec and JBL transducers to produce SPLs that were much higher than anything else in the marketplace.

I beleive the edge wound VC allowed Altec and JBL drivers to dominate the high end consumer market and the professional markets comprised of movie theaters and live concert forums.

I suppose the promotional materials of the time support this view as they definately emphasized the benefits of the flat wound voice coils.

My second choice would be the advent of the compression driver which transformed the transducer marketplace. They helped produce effortless mid and high frequencey material that, IMO is, to this day, head and shoulders above conventiaonal cone drivers.

[timc]

Was JBL realy the inventor of the compression driver?

If so, ill vote for that.

-Tim

[robertbartsch]

Yeh, I read the Bell Labs papers from 1934... those cats were ahead of their time!

I always thought the patents for the edge wound coils and compression drivers came from Bell Labs.... I'm not sure if Altec and JBL licensed these technologies or whether the original Bell Lab patents expired before these companies began commerical production of their speaker systems.

The photos in the paper would suggest the systems were around before Altec and JBL got to viable post development stage companies.

Anyway, I remember reading about the space-age technologies of the day in Altec and JBL promotional material with wonderment in the early 1970s. Now they seem simplistic but, at the time, they were revolutionary, I suppose.

At the insistence of the Justice Department, ATT was busted up in the 1980s and the Bell Labs subsidiary became a separate independent company. I forget the new name now but their shares are selling for a few bucks now, I beleive.

...what a shame!

[doodlebug]

At the insistence of the Justice Department, ATT was busted up in the 1980s and the Bell Labs subsidiary became a separate independent company. I forget the new name now but their shares are selling for a few bucks now, I beleive.

Lucent

Cheers,

David

[allen mueller]

I'd put my vote in for the differential drive, used in some of the newer drivers.

Allen

[Allanvh5150]

I thought SFG would have been high on the list:)

[robertbartsch]

I thought Lucent was merged with a French company a few years ago so it no longer exists as we once knew it.

[Mr. Widget]

Was JBL realy the inventor of the compression driver?

If so, ill vote for that.

-TimI don't think JBL or Jim Lansing invented anything on that list in post #1. Mr. Lansing did strive to build the finest examples of existing technology though. As for Altec's achievements I don't know. They certainly marketed their orange plastic phase plug as a radical new invention, but I have no idea if it actually was.

I do believe that SFG and bi-radial horns are actual innovations from JBL... I am sure there are many others.


Widget

[WDJ]

I have to go with post 2; Quality.

Not sure, but I think my L100s may well be the oldest things I own that still work at anywhere near "original performance". (Well, I have a Simpson 260 that's been through a few batteries..... )

[coherent_guy]

I vote for edgewound VCs and the use of aluminum in them, compression drivers, alnico, and if appropriate, ring radiator diaphragms.

An off topic ramble that some might find interesting.

The parent company of Lucent is Alcatel, which is French, and together have become Alcatel-Lucent a couple years ago. I'm a former Lucent Technologies employee and victim of the layoff of over 1/2 of their employees (approx. 240,000 before the layoffs) starting in 2001. AT&T spun-off Lucent in the early 90's, which included Bell Labs and the businesses that once were called Western Electric, Bell Labs the "R" and Western Electric the "D" of the R&D portion of the company.

Lucent had nothing to do with the original divestiture of AT&T as implied earlier in this thread, but was a result of it to some degree. Lucent made and serviced the telecommunications equipment used in telephone networks, both land and cellular which was formerly done under the Western Electric name.

After divestiture (among other things, allowing other companies to use the existing telecommuncations infrastructure) Sprint and MCI came into being. Simply put, since AT&T was their competitor, they would not purchase their equipment. Lucent was created in part to solve that quandry. It worked to some degree, and for a while Lucent did well, particularly in the burgeoning cellular business, that I worked in among others.

Ironically, AT&T contributed to Lucent's downfall. AT&T was preparing to replace much of the equipment in their network, with new generation equipment that was still being R&D'd by Lucent. A multiple 100 million dollar contract was suddenly cancelled by AT&T. With other contributing factors, Lucent's stock went from about $70 a share, down to 50 cents! My 401K is bloodied to this day from that. When the first buyouts were offered, I jumped and did not regret it.

[Mr. Widget]

I vote for edgewound VCs and the use of aluminum in them, compression drivers, alnico, and if appropriate, ring radiator diaphragms.Those are all excellent technologies, however I don't think Lansing invented any of them... they did make excellent use of them though.

BTW:Thanks for the At&T history... a real American tragedy/screw up I think.


Widget

[coherent_guy]

Those are all excellent technologies, however I don't think Lansing invented any of them... they did make excellent use of them though.

BTW:Thanks for the At&T history... a real American tragedy/screw up I think.


Widget

You're welcome and very correct. Global competition and the loss of China to GSM, a non-US cellular technology, were contributing factors as well.

Hey, I was just going by the list in the first post ;) It seems that list needs to be revised... So who invented rotting foam?? :biting:

[hjames]

You're welcome and very correct. Global competition and the loss of China to GSM, a non-US cellular technology, were contributing factors as well.

Hey, I was just going by the list in the first post ;) It seems that list needs to be revised... So who invented rotting foam?? :biting:

"Look at the surround - Its a rotter ... damn! "
Must be a Dutch invention!

Thanks for the Telco info - we lost a TON of useful R&D when they shutdown Bell labs ... such a shame.

[Hoerninger]

Its a rotter ... damn!
Must be a Dutch invention!

Just to contradict:
The dutch dams (dikes) are best! :applaud:
____________
Peter :)

[hjames]

Just to contradict:
The dutch dams (dikes) are best! :applaud:
____________
Peter :)

yes, I've heard very good things about Dutch dykes ...
but I'm partial to Emma.
:D

[robertbartsch]

Coherant:
Wow, the Bell Labs/Lucent background was interesting and tragic, I suppose.

One friend and ATT employee told me when the divestitures ocurred employees had the option to load up or load down on the new/old pieces. Since I knew a tad about Bell and its inovations, I told him to load up on Lucent stock. For the first few years, the Lucent shares did extremely well, and the other companies did not. As you discuss above, that soon changed, however.

Can you shed any light on the development of edge wound coils; specifically, were these a Bell invention? If yes, what circa?

[timc]

I don't think JBL or Jim Lansing invented anything on that list in post #1. Mr. Lansing did strive to build the finest examples of existing technology though. As for Altec's achievements I don't know. They certainly marketed their orange plastic phase plug as a radical new invention, but I have no idea if it actually was.

I do believe that SFG and bi-radial horns are actual innovations from JBL... I am sure there are many others.


Widget


Then my vote is for the SFG system.



-Tim

[Hoerninger]

In search for the edgewound voice coil by Moldyoldy:
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=17006&highlight=patents&page=4
going back to 1925.

In this thread there are listed a lot of Lansing related patents found with help of
http://www.google.com/patents
____________
Peter

[SMKSoundPro]

What about ALNiCo magnet motors?

In reading the book, I thought this was a revolutionary development, along side edge-wound coils.

And what about kapton former bullets and their cousins: slots and ellipsoidals.

(Sorry, will not even comment on Emma. Lisa and I loved the picture of her as a super-model Carol Merrill showing the great JBL speakers! It was right out of a classic ad slick! Bring her back.)

[robertbartsch]

Steve Schell:
The Western Electric 555W compression driver used an edgewound aluminum voice coil, and was in large scale production by 1926 or 1927. I believe this was the first use of a ribbon wire voice coil in a loudspeaker. The U.S. Patents #1,707,544 (A.L. Thuras) and 1,707,545 (E.C. Wente) describe the driver in detail. The particulars of the voice coil design and construction are discussed in depth in Mr. Thuras' patent.

*****

Wow - that is very interesting. So, I assume Altec Lansing and JBL did not need to license the patented technology since the patents on edge wounds would have run by the time these companies began production of their iconic loudspeakers that we all love dearly.

I think you can look at the patent information most of which is in electronic form at the US Patent office. I know this since my Uncle Jim Bartsch invented the first solid (plastic) golf ball in 1963. The Patent is framed in my TV room!

[toddalin]

Differential Drive Design

[glen]

I don't think JBL or Jim Lansing invented anything on that list ...
Widget

I think that more than any particular invention Lansing deserves credit for putting more innovations into production and refining them faster than other manufacturers.
I remember one audiophile speaker touting a copper shorting ring on the magnet pole piece and vented gap for less heat/power compression. That sounded impressive until I saw that JBL had included these innovations years earlier and was already on their second or third generation of gap vented drivers.

Whatever Lansing innovation they put out may not have been the first of it's kind, but it very likely became the most common example and the de-facto standard by which other implementations of the same invention would be judged.

[robertbartsch]

The JBL marketing material from the early 70s was amazing in that took great pride in listing all the technical improvements and inovations that were used in the drivers.

I assume a lot of this stuff they used back then like flat wire coils, machined pole plates, alnico magnets were also being used by their cheif competitor Altec Lansing but the Altec marketing material took a different path.

...the rest they say is history!

[speakerdave]

I choose the innovations in the 1500Al to make Alnico safe for rick and roll.

http://jbl.com/home/k2_story/k2_tech1.aspx

[Mr. Widget]

I choose the innovations in the 1500Al to make Alnico safe for rick and roll.

http://jbl.com/home/k2_story/k2_tech1.aspxThat is an awesome inovation... actually an awesome product all around!


BTW: Who's Rick?


Widget

[grumpy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0

[JBL Dog]

Large format 4300 series monitors and the entire Cabaret Series.

:D

[Titanium Dome]

Since no one else will write about it, if the point of the thread is JBL innovation, then the EOS Waveguide is an actual, JBL, proprietary design. There have been waveguides of one sort or another around for awhile, but the EOS was a true innovation.

JBL's "blank CAD screen" approach to the LSR produced a number of innovations, not the least of which was the EOS:

Elliptical Oblate Spheroidal (EOS) Waveguide Designed for a targeted listening window of +/- 30° horizontally and +/- 15° vertically, the EOS provides a frequency response through the entire window of 1.5 dB from on-axis. This allows listeners, even far off-axis to hear an accurate representation of the on-axis response.

Not only did this design proliferate into most of JBL's consumer products, but it found imitators in other speaker lines, including by Widget's testimony to the folks at Revel into the Ultima2 line. Even the design freaks over at diyAudio credit the EOS with creating a movement in waveguide technology and they try to emulate it and improve it, usually with limited success. JBL did its homework on this design and it's pretty hard to beat in its intended application.

[speakerdave]

. . . . Who's Rick? . . . .

That's him there.

[Titanium Dome]

Is his last name Shaw?

[Mr. Widget]

...it found imitators in other speaker lines, including by Widget's testimony to the folks at Revel into the Ultima2 line.I've said it before... in my opinion Revel is JBL. Even though GT would probably argue with me, I'd suggest the Ultimas are descendants of the L250/250Ti lineage and therefore part of our Lansing Heritage... flat ribbon wire and all.;)


Widget

[Mr. Widget]

That's him there.
I guess the "roll" part has to do with the instability in Rick's contraption. :D



Widget

[speakerdave]

I guess the "roll" part has to do with the instability in Rick's contraption. . . .

Oh, you've ridden in one.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Charge-coupling:dancin: