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JuniorJBL
04-25-2004, 10:46 AM
I would like to get some feedback as to what UHF drivers to use in a House of Worship system. It is a fan shaped room, seats about 800 and when RTA'd system starts to drop off at about 8K.

The mains are Venue 3115's in biamped mode. We are working on the acoustics of the room as well.

Any suggestions would be helpful.
Thank shane:)

boputnam
04-25-2004, 11:04 AM
Hey, Shane...

Some easy recommendations come in the form of the 2405 (077) or even the 2402 (075), if you make a horizontal array of a few of the latter.

I don't know the "Venue 3115's", but regardless, you'll need a high-pass filter to roll-off the LF to these from the "mains".

Tom Loizeaux
04-25-2004, 05:49 PM
I like Bo's recommendations. You might be even happier with a combination of 2402s and 2405s. The 2405s would spread the ulta highs around horiozontally while the 2402s would shoot some highs toward the back of the room nicely.
Just my idea on this.

Tom

Alex Lancaster
04-25-2004, 07:32 PM
How many 3115īs are You running?; the 2426 CD in the Venues should give You enough highs; Maybe more EQ?

Alex.

JuniorJBL
04-25-2004, 07:38 PM
I do have crossovers for this duty. I will probably use an old crown D150a for this as well.
I am not sure if the budget will allow both models but in time it would. So I will most likely start with 2405's and add the 02's as the budget will allow.
Thanks again.
Shane:D

JuniorJBL
04-25-2004, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by Alex Lancaster
How many 3115īs are You running?; the 2426 CD in the Venues should give You enough highs; Maybe more EQ?

Alex.

We are using 4 of these units. When the RTA is done (DBX driverack 260) 12,16,20k are cranked.

I know most of this is due to a VERY bad room design. I am going to try some different defraction panels on the rear walls and sound deadening panels up in the "hole" onstage. I could spend days describing this room, but people are OOhed and awhed over looks not how the room will sound best.
As we know most people hear with thier eyes.
Thanks Shane:)

boputnam
04-25-2004, 08:17 PM
Originally posted by Alex Lancaster
Maybe more EQ? maybe so, Alex, if he can mitigate/disembowel the resonant frequencies.

What Shane sez...
12,16,20k are cranked. is concerning, and seems related to VS3115 design, but could be largely room related.

The dbx driverack should largely be notching (out) - increasing EQ is not a suitable solution. Judging from this plot, Shane, I'd say you're correct in seeking some augmentation to the +10kHz range... :yes:

However, you've not specified what you are reinforcing - if the spoken voice, there are important aspects of mic placement that improve legibility (see: Eargle, 1996, Handbook of Recording Engineering, various pages; and Stark and Bralove, 1996, Live Sound Reinforcement, Chapter 5), and microphone selection, is critically important, as well.

You "sound" like you know what you're doing - just some interesting references for you...

boputnam
04-25-2004, 08:22 PM
Originally posted by JuniorJBL
I know most of this is due to a VERY bad room design. I am going to try some different defraction panels on the rear walls and sound deadening panels up in the "hole" onstage. I'm intrigued by this quote.

Do you have a stored image of the room RTA pre EQ...? That would be most interesting. Maybe, easing-down the range that is resonant (vs increasing the range that is not...) the net-effect will be improved legibility without adding any UHF's... Maybe this is what Alex was suggesting... :hmm:

JuniorJBL
04-25-2004, 08:58 PM
That is very possible.
I usually try to do just cut on eq. But the drive rack has its "own way" of doing things. It is still possible to read the responce and map your own eq responce from there.

Now about the ROOM!
Mids just bounce around for about 2 or 3 seconds after there is no sound output. Very large windows do not help that fact as well. most everything from about 300Hz up to 2-3K has cut. 1K being cut about 15db. Maybe that give you a start as to how bad this room is. I am trying to do defraction instead of absorbtion so I do not loose as much of my UHF. more on that later.

It is mainly a problem with the worship team (band). Just a few instruments and it sounds OK. add more than that and things get really bad really fast. on top of that we have to try to keep FOH volume at about 90db. As we all know it usually take about 10 more db over your monitors to keep things in check. This makes for a very hard situation. I am quite sure that most of my problem lies in the room itself. But to fix it is quite costly. and then I have the it looks bad syndrome.

Now for our pastor's mic we use a Countryman earmount piece (VERY small about the size of a ball point pen). I forget the model but it costs about $700.00 and it is hooked to a Shure UC4/UC1.
The rest of our vocal mics are sm58 UHF. I do not remember the model but they were the better ones from about 4 years ago, I think they were about 4 or 500.00 each. We use a Soundcraft Spirt Live 24-4 which I like quite a bit. Some of the mics could use an upgrade but around there the budget is a had rock to crack. The unsaid motto is "if it still makes sound nothing is wrong... by the way we could not here so-in-so today how come?":banghead:

I think you get the picture.
Shane:banghead:

boputnam
04-27-2004, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by JuniorJBL
...Mids just bounce around for about 2 or 3 seconds after there is no sound output. (and) ... 1K being cut about 15db. :shock:

Hehehe...

Dood - you need to RTA the room on a heavy communion day... ;) Much of your problem will be absorbed by bodies. So, get 'em wine'd-up, and convince them to listen quietly to the Man whilst you figure out the EQ! :coolness:

That Spirit board has some powerful sweep mid EQ's - make sure you're using them to the fullest before EQ'ing the mains - right? Stop the problem at the source...

What is the instrumentation? You're struggling with the age-old problem of your FOH mix being limited by the (high - call it, "enthusiastic" ;) ) backline levels (and, in this case, the foldback, too). You need to convince the musically enlightened to cut their back line to absolute minimums, and live off the foldback. And, then, you need to keep the foldback controlled, and EQ'd.


the drive rack has its "own way" of doing things is my problem with these. I wonder if you'd be better off going back to a basic 31-band, 1/3 octave graphic and working hard to model the room full of increasingly pleased brethren.

I don't know "sm58 UHF", but presume you mean Shure SM58's (lo-Z). Those are great vocal mics, but not the best for mic'ing amps or drums. Any condensors? They can be problematic in problematic rooms... :spin:

Give us some more understanding of what you are mic'ing, and how, and whether it is in the foldback or not, and whatever. Maybe "less is more" as always, and in this instance too - i.e., unless you're needing to record everything for some "shutins", you mght get by say letting the lead guitar stay out of the mix, and getting him/her to use your guidance on volume...

oldmics might chime-in here too - he's an Ace in this realm...

(from Miami...)