ranking JBL 3 way bookshelves

[SEAWOLF97]

JBL produced many 3 way "bookshelves" ....I realized that its a question that has no absolute answer, only subjective opinions....,
BUT, how would YOU rate them (only from what you have actually heard, not read about) ?????


what I have heard and rating

1. L166
2. 4410
3. 4412
4. L36
4. L100 (tie for 4th place)
6. L80T (kind of a tweener - couldnt put on a shelf)

[Valentin]

century gold

must be in there

[rdgrimes]

L112
L96
L86

All sound nearly identical from the mid-bass up.

[4313B]

The 4313B was considered the best of the bunch and I would tend to agree with that. "The 10-inch 3-ways worked particularly well."

I heard them all at various times over the years in a multitude of venues and I don't remember any of them striking me as particularly bad. Well now wait, the 4311's or 4312's at Griffith Park Observatory were pretty awful. The 120Ti stands out although I personally prefer an LE10H or LE111H based version instead of the 128H-1. L36, L50, L86, L100, L110, L112, L166, 4310, 4311, 4312, 4410, 4411, 4412, etc.

I've not heard alot of the newer models but I'm sure the Century Gold would be at the top of the heap. I didn't much care for the LSR32's but I'm perfectly willing to blame that on my particular room and their placement in it. I'd like to hear a pair of L90's but probably never will.

[opimax]

When you say the the 120TI stands out is that stands out good or stands out bad???

Mark

[BMWCCA]

When you say the the 120TI stands out is that stands out good or stands out bad???I'm reasonably certain he meant it as in "outstanding". Everyone loves that 044ti. If I have any room left in the van for the "L300 vs. L7" comparo, I may have to think about bringing along my 4412As so we can compare to your 120Ti's. :applaud:

[opimax]

great, the 120s haven't seen any attention other than picking out which set get the best feeling/looking surrounds and how close they are to my ears in use. I compared the last spare set to the DQ-10s and was surprised in how different they sounded, key word was different. A friend liked them better I went the other way.

Mark

[4313B]

I'm reasonably certain he meant it as in "outstanding". Everyone loves that 044ti.:yes:

I always liked the entire original Ti Series.
If I have any room left in the van for the "L300 vs. L7" comparo, I may have to think about bringing along my 4412As so we can compare to your 120Ti's. :applaud::yes:

[opimax]

I had that impression from the past talks and dealings w/you and my result of owning 6 sets of TIs :)

Mark

[SEAWOLF97]

Everyone loves that 044ti. :applaud:

Not everybody....recently one of the very senior members here ranted on abt how bad it is and cannot be replaced.:biting:

I'm trying to care for mine, plenty of power, no clipping here ...I DO like the sound...... Marty, who sold me the 250ti's, as I remember was underwhelmed with the 240ti ... am I quoting you correctly, Marty ?

[BMWCCA]

Not everybody....recently one of the very senior members here ranted on abt how bad it is and cannot be replaced.:biting:

I'm trying to care for mine, plenty of power, no clipping here ...I DO like the sound...... Marty, who sold me the 250ti's, as I remember was underwhelmed with the 240ti ... am I quoting you correctly, Marty ?

So what do you think of them in your 250Ti's?

My 4412As are all original with original surrounds. Hopefully we'll have a chance to compare them with Opi's 120Ti. They've never been my favorite but I do like them a lot. It always seemed I'd end up swapping them with the L5 and just leave the L5s in the system. Whenever I put the 4412As in, I'd always go back for the L5. This may be simply because placement of the L5 is easier; just stand them practically anywhere in the room and plug 'em in. The 4412As need to be horizontal to work best and off the floor closer to ear level. That usually requires a shelf, or a willing C35 cabinet that doesn't get jeaolous.

[coherent_guy]

IMO, the L110 or L110A would rate above an L36 and L100. The former two certainly have a more high-tech crossover with better parts, and better drivers than the latter two. JBL marketed the L110 as an improved replacement for the L100, FWIW.

I would think that the PT800 from the Performance series would certainly be a contender, or does it satellite status disqualify it from consideration? I would rather have a pair of PT800s than L100s or L36s, without a doubt.

Are you only talking classics here?

[4313B]

I would think that the PT800 from the Performance series would certainly be a contender, or does it satellite status disqualify it from consideration?I almost included the L212 since some people did take the bases off and put them on shelves but...

Are you only talking classics here?:dont-know

I would rather have a pair of PT800s than L100s or L36s, without a doubt.They are really nice.

[CheeseGrits]

I've got a pair of 4410, L166, and L110, and I've been meaning to compare them. Someone here suggested that the L110 would compare poorly to the 4410, but I'm interested to find out. It's hard to find a block of time and the energy to set up such a comparison.

[Titanium Dome]

Concerning the PT800:



They are really nice.

As much as I love them, I've never had the 'nads to run them below 80Hz, though I know it's technically possible. Above 80 Hz, I'd take them over most any "bookshelf" three-way. However, even my lowly E50 has better rated LF response.

Have you heard them run unrestricted?

[coherent_guy]

[quote=4313B;225894]I almost included the L212 since some people did take the bases off and put them on shelves but...

OMG, that is crazy... or at least my knee-jerk reaction to that idea.

How about L65s on a shelf? I put L65s on 18" stands, which works great except for loosing some bass reinforcement. Rambling off topic here...

[4313B]

OMG, that is crazy... or at least my knee-jerk reaction to that idea.Well... there was also the guy who took the bases off and bolted three L212 side panels to the wall behind his perf screen... L-C-R

Concerning the PT800:

Have you heard them run unrestricted?Actually, that was the only way I heard them. I didn't hook them up to PS1400's. I ran them off an AVR7200, and had them set to 'large'. I compared them directly to a pair of L212's (no B212's).
Someone here suggested that the L110 would compare poorly to the 4410, but I'm interested to find out.That could be interesting... the L110 obviously has the better LF transducer but the 4410 has the better midrange and, arguably, the better HF dome (depending on whether one prefers titanium over phenolic).

[wu6fiend]

What would be the definition of "bookshelf" speakers? Requiring a stand to be at optimum listening height? Small enough to fit on a standard bookshelf?

The L60T/L80T/L100T family are all free standing, "tower-type" speakers. You would have to have a heck of a strong bookshelf to hold them!

The L100 and its similar sized family members are, in my opinion, also too big to be considered "bookshelf" speakers.

I have a pair of L2600s, which I would consider true "bookshelf" size.

Just curious, is there an industry accepted size, or is it a "in the eye of the beholder" thing?

[4313B]

Just curious, is there an industry accepted size, or is it a "in the eye of the beholder" thing?My opinion has always been that the L112/4411/120Ti-sized box represents the largest of the "bookshelf" class. I think maybe the 4425 or 4428 are a little larger but I could be wrong. I don't feel like looking them up to find out. :p

[Titanium Dome]

While they are large, I've had the L100s on shelves many times over the years, starting with a several year stint in my dorm room where they were on built-in shelves over the windows. They had to lie on their sides and about four inches of speaker hung over the edge. They sounded pretty good that way.

My L60Ts might fit on shelves if laid on the sides, and my XPL160s would also do that in an odd way because of the cabinet shape, except both would have porting issues (ports on back). They're obviously meant to stand upright and be placed away from walls.

Unless you have a bookcase or shelves that are freestanding with no backs on them, any rear-ported speaker is not really a bookshelf speaker. So I think a real bookshelf speaker is either sealed or front ported, regardless of what the manufacturer calls it. There are lots of small three-way "bookshelf" speakers that are rear ported that work fine on stands but would suffer if placed on shelves.

[SEAWOLF97]

There was a fun picture here (can't find it now ) of L250's on the floor "BASE TO BASE" ....flat long sides down, the 2 of them making a funny triangle....with the componets in the middle, stacked up high as the 2 bottoms.

Bookshelves is a silly term anyway, dont have many shelves that can take the weight of 2 L166's

[rdgrimes]

Well... there was also the guy who took the bases off and bolted three L212 side panels to the wall behind his perf screen... L-C-R
Actually, that was the only way I heard them. I didn't hook them up to PS1400's. I ran them off an AVR7200, and had them set to 'large'. I compared them directly to a pair of L212's (no B212's)..

Correct me if I'm wrong. The L212 has an internal XO @ 70Hz and the PT800 has no internal XO. So any direct comparison is flawed unless a 70Hz XO is applied to the PT800.

[4313B]

The L212 side panels run full range. The 112H rolls off naturally below ~ 70 Hz at ~ 12 dB/octave due to the closed box. (If you want to split hairs it is actually a bit more complicated than that, the acoustic crossover of the L212 is ~ 70 Hz where both the 121H and 112H are ~ 8 to 9 dB down at the crossover point). The 908Ti in the PT800 behaves similarly in its sealed box.

Any box you put a driver in acts like a high pass filter. Sealed boxes are ~12 dB/octave high pass filters, vented boxes are ~ 18 to 24 dB/octave high pass filters, passive radiator boxes are ~ 30 dB/octave high pass filters and 6th order assisted vented boxes are ~ 36 dB/octave high pass filters. One problem with vented boxes though... the driver unloads below box resonance. Not a problem if you use a subsonic filter or keep an eye on the power input.

The B212 has a passive line level 12 dB/octave low pass filter (staggered poles though! one is set at something like 45 or 50 Hz and the second at something like ~ 60 or 70 Hz which acts like an EQ cut filter) in front of the amplifier that rolls off above ~ 70 Hz.

[jblsound]

I almost included the L212 since some people did take the bases off and put them on shelves but...
:dont-know
They are really nice.
I was thinking the same thing and I have run them full range. On a lot of music, especially on vinyl, there isn't a whole lot below 40 anyway.




As much as I love them, I've never had the 'nads to run them below 80Hz, though I know it's technically possible. Above 80 Hz, I'd take them over most any "bookshelf" three-way. However, even my lowly E50 has better rated LF response.

Have you heard them run unrestricted?


As with the L212, I've run them full range, at moderate volume, but they won't go as low as the L212. For starters the L212's 112A is a beast of a mid-bass and will roll off around 40htz, maybe lower.

[rdgrimes]

The L212 side panels run full range. The 112H rolls off naturally below ~ 70 Hz at ~ 12 dB/octave due to the closed box. (If you want to split hairs it is actually a bit more complicated than that, the acoustic crossover of the L212 is ~ 70 Hz where both the 121H and 112H are ~ 8 to 9 dB down at the crossover point). The 908Ti in the PT800 behaves similarly in its sealed box.


I'm going by the spec sheet, which states XO at 70-800-3000.

[jblsound]

I'm going by the spec sheet, which states XO at 70-800-3000.
But the 70 htz becomes more like 40 htz with a full signal.
When given a full range signal the 112A/H buts out quite a bit of bass. Depending on the music being played, you can forget you don't have the sub on. I've done it.

[4313B]

I'm going by the spec sheet, which states XO at 70-800-3000.JBL typically publishes acoustic crossover frequencies, not electrical.

Like I said, the 112H and the 908Ti roll off naturally in their sealed boxes. They have no electrical high pass filters on them.

***

L212 (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4555) - Note voltage drives of the L212 and B212 ( #6 (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=110375&postcount=6) #7 (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=122614&postcount=7) #10 (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=122617&postcount=10) )as well as measured response of L212 and B212 independently (#16 (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=122624&postcount=16) ).

Here's the 112A in it's little 0.4 cu ft box.

[jblsound]

JBL typically publishes acoustic crossover frequencies, not electrical.

Like I said, the 112H and the 908Ti roll off naturally in their sealed boxes. They have no electrical high pass filters on them.

***

L212 (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4555) - Note voltage drives of the L212 and B212 as well as measured response of L212 and B212 independently.

Here's the 112A in it's little 0.4 cu ft box.
That's down more than I thought it was, I thought I remembered reading the 112 was only down 3db @ 70 htz. But that slope shows I remember wrong.
But in any case, the L212 sounds very good run full range.

[4313B]

But in any case, the L212 sounds very good run full range.:yes:

[JBL Dog]

JBL produced many 3 way "bookshelves" ....I realized that its a question that has no absolute answer, only subjective opinions....,
BUT, how would YOU rate them (only from what you have actually heard, not read about) ?????


what I have heard and rating

1. L166
2. 4410
3. 4412
4. L36
4. L100 (tie for 4th place)
6. L80T (kind of a tweener - couldnt put on a shelf)

I've only heard the 4410 and L100. 4410 gets my vote.

[4313B]

I thought you'd been to Audiobeer's place...

[speakerdave]

I like the LSR32

[JBL Dog]

I thought you'd been to Audiobeer's place...

Yup, many times. He's never had any of his 4313B's or L166's wired up when I've dropped in. I did get a chance to listen to his L300's when he had them. I must say his L300's sounded perfect!

I had a set of 4313B's at one time. Never listed to them because the surrounds were shot. Audiobeer bought the cabinets and I sold the remaining parts on eBay.

[demon]

i vote for 4310.

[coherent_guy]

I just realized there is a rather obvious omission from this list... the HLS410, particularly with it's high power tweeter...

[allen mueller]

Of the ones I've heard I'd have to go with the LSR 6332 which i own a pair of or the LSR 32 which i used to own. The only others that i have experience with mentioned in this thread would be the 4311, 4312 and 4410.

Allen

[Mr. Widget]

I just realized there is a rather obvious omission from this list... the HLS410, particularly with it's high power tweeter...I had to Google it as I had never heard of the HLS... here is a pic for others like me who aren't familiar with it.

Not quite a JBL three-way.

[jblsound]

I had to Google it as I had never heard of the HLS... here is a pic for others like me who aren't familiar with it.

Not quite a JBL three-way.
I seem to remember the HLS series being sold in Monkey Wards, and maybe Sears around '98

[johnaec]

I just realized there is a rather obvious omission from this list... the HLS410, particularly with it's high power tweeter...I honestly hope you're being somewhat facetious with that remark - seriously! :blink:

The HLS series is one of the more basic, entry level products put out by JBL to compete in the Best Buy arena, etc. All the cone drivers used are basic stamped sheet metal designs, with somewhat small magnets, voice coils, etc, though they are magnetically shielded. And the "tweeters" are what look to be mylar dome radiators, stuck behind a kinda' horn or waveguide. I actually had to order a "driver" replacement from JBL to repair one once on a set I'd picked up out of curiosity.

JBL made from the HLS410 up to the HLS820, including a center. For entry level speakers, they sound pretty good, but I would definitely put them at the "Best Buy" level of speakers.

I've got a pair of HLS610 and HLS820's sitting in a corner somewhere here, both pairs in excellent shape. If someone wants them, I'll let the 610's, (6.5" LF + horn), go for $50 and the 820's, (dual 8" tower + horn), for $100. If you come by and pick them up so I don't have to do anything, I'll take half that. Come up with a better idea, and they might even go outta' here free!

They're something I'd consider good as part of a "home theater" for a rumpus room or the kids - not something you'd be showing off as state of the art...

John

[Mikal]

The JBL Century Gold speakers are the best that I have heard.

[Audiobeer]

Yup, many times. He's never had any of his 4313B's or L166's wired up when I've dropped in. I did get a chance to listen to his L300's when he had them. I must say his L300's sounded perfect!

I had a set of 4313B's at one time. Never listed to them because the surrounds were shot. Audiobeer bought the cabinets and I sold the remaining parts on eBay.

I have both. I prefer the 4313Bs for near field listening. Someday soon I'm going to finish the home theater room. That was the plan when the renones were installed.

[bone215]

3 ways I have owned are s38 and 4412A. I like them both.

[Guns]

LSR 6332 the best i have heard

[coherent_guy]

"I honestly hope you're being somewhat facetious with that remark - seriously! :blink:"

Seriously, to put it mildly, of course I was being facetious! That I included a two-way system is of course a... Doh!!

The HLS series used a horn loaded tweeter less than one inch in diameter, and plastic cone woofers, and real binding posts on most models. About seven models total in the line, including some tower models, and a center channel. Circuit City offered them as a cheap upgrade with a Technics surround sound receiver and DD/DTS processor, which I took a chance on. They really weren't half bad. The HLS410 is a small satellite sized speaker (I have used as rear channel surround speakers) that has a four inch woofer. The concept of a JBL 4" woofer has always tickled me, and I can't help but be fond of them.

[robertbartsch]

I made the mistake of buying an HLS center channel about 8 or 10 years ago.
...pure garbage!

[jblsound]

I made the mistake of buying an HLS center channel about 8 or 10 years ago.
...pure garbage!
That would fit right in with my comment about them being sold in Monkey Wards and Sears. Not exactly HiFi shops. Of coarse, that was the prelude to them showing up in BB, which only carried low end JBLs.

[coherent_guy]

I made the mistake of buying an HLS center channel about 8 or 10 years ago.
...pure garbage!

What did you expect for the price? I will again say they were not half bad. They had real binding posts and film caps in the X-overs, things that cannot be said for some original L series speakers. They were designed to a price point obviously. I imagine the JBL engineers that worked on them enjoyed your comment.

[Minatogawaman]

I agree with those who have posted LSR6332 or LSR32. These speakers are current-hungry, but they use this power to blow away pretty much anything else in their price range. Their butt-ugliness becomes charming unpretentiousness after extended listening. Hell, my wife even puts up with them after hearing Bach's Partitas on them.

I have 4425 now, and have had L112 (excellent), all manner of Lancers and so forth, but the LSR is clearly the King in our little castle.

Chris

[Akira]

i vote for 4310.
Yes the Grand Daddy of them all is still my favorite!

Of course 40 years of advancements have yielded superior speakers, but there is something musical about that box.

[robertbartsch]

My JBL HLS center channel HT speaker was NOT cheap. At close to $300 when purchased 10 years ago, the comparable price in today's dollars, considering inflation, is close to $650.

The HLS speaker has a very small plastic compression horn and two small cone drivers each under 6 inches in diameter. The speakers are not capable of reproducing the full audio spectrum which is a basic requirement for a center channel speaker. In addition, the accustic efficency of the speaker is dismal- requiring relatively large amounts of power to generate very moderate SPL.

For the large price and lousy performance, I consider this product from JBL to be a pure rip off of consumers.

Rare for JBL but never-the-less and unfortunately TRUE!