sam1hf / sam2lf

[4313B]

Mr. Widget,

Have you had a chance to hear these yet?

[4313B]

.

[4313B]

SAM12X (http://www.jblsynthesis.com/products/product_detail.aspx?prod=SAM12X&Language=ENG&Country=MX&Region=USA)

[Mr. Widget]

Mr. Widget,

Have you had a chance to hear these yet?Nope. :(

But I hope to... it looks like that passive network could be upgraded to a CC'd Solen network à la the Everest II. I guess they expect most users to use the active filtering in the SDEC 4000 Active crossover and filter system.


Widget

[4313B]

I guess they expect most users to use the active filtering in the SDEC 4000 Active crossover and filter system.I think so.

[4313B]

Has anyone run across these yet?

[Titanium Dome]

Neat! Aluminum domes and cones on the midbass drivers and dual neo magnets...

[Ed Zeppeli]

Does anybody know off-hand the crossover frequency of the SAM12X from woofer module into SAM1HF?

The downloaded literature doesn't give that spec. I'd imagine it to be around 700-800Hz similar to Array but need specifics for my SAM1HF project.

Thanks much,

Warren

[grumpy]

If you want the response of the HF or LF output of the SAM12X into a resistor (e.g., 8 ohms), I could properly setup to do that this weekend...

[Ed Zeppeli]

Very kind of you Sir Grumpy. As you may have seen, I have the SAMs and am using 2234s for bottom end. My active crossover is limited to a Rane analogue unit and I'm a little concerned about creating a hole in the response by setting it too low. If there's no hi-pass filter in the built-in Sam crossover then I should be ok by just getting in the ball-park. If there is, then I'd like to mate up with that frequency if possible.

Thanks again,

Warren

[Ed Zeppeli]

According to the following post they're crossed at 890...

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?36103-SAM2LF-unboxing-to-the-bone&p=366125&viewfull=1#post366125

[grumpy]

If I remember right, part of the High Pass is in the SAM12x (or the DEC) and the CD
compensation and EQ/notches are in the SAM1HF box. If you're happy with the 890 figure
(I see no reason to dispute) it'll save me some time :D If I do it anyway, just out of
curiosity, I'll post results.

[Ed Zeppeli]

Yes, I can probably make that information work for me as it stands.

Regards,

Warren

[AudioFan]

I was looking for information on Array 800 crossovers and found this thread. It is very interesting and I would like to know how your modifications turned out.

I purchased the top end of a pair off JBL Array 800's a year ago or so as a possible system build. I had thought of using a pair of HP88F woofers that I had picked up in another purchase around the same time to use as the bottom end. I thought that I could build a box to house a pair of those woofers and use the Array 800 HF horns on top. I don't have the crossover to the Array 800 horns and was wondering if anyone had any suggestions to match these horns to these woofers with a 3-way crossover? Would the original passive crossover for the 800 system work properly, (if one could even be found)? Or, do I need to tri-amp this system with an outboard active crossover?

Thanks for your reply.

[Ed Zeppeli]

I've re-configured my system and am revisiting my set-up.

I am interested in what the SAM12X is doing but thought another way to analyze it would be to possibly download the tuning file from Synthesis for the SAM1/2 crossover/eq functions.

I can't find where those are available or if they are readable to interpret into my dbx unit.

I realize the tunings are meant for sdec or bss units but maybe there is a way to convert them to text and go from there...


Any assistance would be appreciated.

[AudioFan]

I see that you are still working on your DIY project. Have you been able to find the appropriate crossover application for these systems? Are you still using the Rane crossover for your speakers? I made an inquiry relative to your project 7 months ago, but no one on the site seemed interested in my question. I really don't know where else to go to find the specific information needed to finish my little speaker project. I hope you have better luck than I have getting information about these horns.

[Ed Zeppeli]

Hello AudioFan,

I'm using a dbx Venu360 and REW to experiment and get things tuned in. I can see what the SAM1HF built in Xover is doing by running a full range sweep in REW but I don't know what the combined crossover looked like without the Synthesis SDEC or passive SAM12X crossover were doing.

I think the lack of response on your Array 800 question may have to do with the fact that not many people have them? The SAM1HF is the same driver/horn combination used in the 1400 Array and so has a little more cache. Also, since some came available as parts they were the subect of a few DIY threads.

Here's a thread on my tuning experience.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?40101-New-Adventures-In-Hi-Fi&highlight=

[AudioFan]

Ed,

I reviewed the link you referred me to. Very impressive testing results and process! I don't have that equipment unfortunately. You seem to have a great deal of experience and knowledge about audio measurements and this equipment to accomplish it. Unfortunately, I don't really have a crossover to test. The HF units I picked up did not have any crossover with them. I am still trying to find any information about the crossover for these speakers. I know they are not as exciting as the Array 1400, but they should be very similar - just a bit smaller. The HF units I have from the Array 800 have a small plug with four wires coming out of the HF unit. They are not marked as to which driver they are attached to. Apparently they plugged into another matching receptacle in the bass unit. I am sure the crossover is mounted in the bass unit, but I did not get that part in the deal. So, I am left trying to figure out what the JBL engineers originally decided was the best combination of components in that crossover to achieve the best sound. I thought with all the combined knowledge of JBL engineers, audio experts, and so many others with so much experience here on this site - someone would know what the crossover was in the Array 800, or how I could build one. I do have several DBX crossovers and EQ's. I have many JBL crossovers and a lot of UREI and Ashly Pro equipment as well as a few pieces from Rane, EV, DuKane, Pioneer, Luxman, Accuphase, and Nikko. I even have an old JBL ES52000, but no "modern" evaluation equipment. Most of my equipment and speakers are just like me - old and not quite up to current standards. :crying:

Thanks for your reply.

[Ed Zeppeli]

Hi,

Nope. I'm still trying to figure it all out as well...just documenting my experience. But thank-you.

It's funny. I have all the gear required to match the 1400 Array Voltage Drive curves digitally but I find myself actually fighting the internal crossover on my horns. In a way I'd rather be in your boat faced with two pairs of wires dangling out of the back. lol

Looks like you're going to have to figure out which are which and set up an active three way system but I don't think you'll be able to do that with analogue gear. Those compression drivers usually require a funky curve to them to get the response flattened; more tuning required than what just an analogue active crossover can provide, I believe.

Crossover frequencies are listed here as well as driver identities. Have you searched this site for info on the 175ND?

http://www.jblsynthesis.com/tl_files/catalog//jblsynthesis/1000%20Array/Specification%20Sheet%20-%20Project%20Array%201000.pdf

[Ed Zeppeli]

Sorry, just realized it was the Array 800 in your possession.

175ND-3

http://www.jblsynthesis.com/tl_files/catalog//jblsynthesis/800%20Array/800%20Array%20Technical%20Specs.pdf

Looks like the HF/UHF schematic is in the above PDF.

If you have the resources to find someone to build you a pair you could then match to a woofer of your choosing using your analog crossovers into the freshly built passive crossover feeding the horn.

[Ed Zeppeli]

It might be worth calling JBL Parts and asking if they actually have CROSSOVERNETWORK HF/UHF360911-001.


Could be cheaper than custom.

[AudioFan]

Ed,

Thanks for the link. I don't know why I never found that in my searches. I looked at everything I could find on this site, and I thought that I had found most of any other related info on the interweb. Of course that was a while ago. Anyway, I can certainly use that information. I will call Harmon Service, even though I have never had a good result from that effort in the past. Greg T. was still designing speakers and working for JBL the last time I got any real help from JBL.

I do have a couple of Behringer products that might help:




Behringer Super-X Pro







Behringer Super-X Pro






BG Neo 8






BK 2120 Oscilloscope






Brnngr Feedback Destroyer






Brnngr MX2200






BrnngrCX2310






BrnngrCX2310






BrnngrCX3400

[Ed Zeppeli]

I'm not familiar with all that Behringer kit. Below is the voltage drive of the 1400 Array to give you an idea of what a crossover needs to do in these systems. If you think you can replicate those kinds of curves with any of your gear go for it. You'll need crossover and parametric EQs. UREI and Ashly stuff has a pretty good reputation; which you also mentioned?

If you have no luck with getting the OEM passive or a custom one made you could always jump in with both feet and pick up some other 'stuff'.

I think a Dayton USB mic can be had for around $100 and REW is free. I hear good things about MiniDSP for crossover and eq functions. Fairly affordable and popular enough that there is a lot of online resources for information about them.

Good luck!

78396

[AudioFan]

Ed,

The graph is very helpful. It seems to indicate that the midrange driver is much more efficient than the LF or UHF drivers in the 1400 Array system. I may be able to configure some of my current equipment to provide the output you outlined in your graph. At least it will provide me with an idea of what is required to start researching and testing in an effort to find a usable drive contour. I just wanted to get them up and running for my den or another smaller type area. I have an extra JBL HTPS-400 sub I can add to them to enhance the low bass if needed.

I am somewhat hesitant about having to insert a lot of additional pieces and connectors between the source and the speakers as a permanent installation. Between electronic crossovers, multiple amplifiers, DSP's, equalizers, connectors, and a power source/conditioner, they might weigh more than the speakers they are driving. :( I would like to keep it simple as possible to reduce distortion and noise. Since these are small speakers that will not be required to be driven at very high levels in a small room, I may be able to come up with some kind of passive crossover that is compatible with reproducing quality sound from them. Hopefully the information you provided will allow me to find the correct input to drive these systems to an accurate output.

Here are short descriptions of the listed equipment/function I listed that you said you were unfamiliar with:

BEHRINGER SUPER-X PRO CX3400:

Professional stereo 2-way/3-way/mono 4-way crossover featuring state-of-the-art Linkwitz-Riley filters with 24 dB/octave Individual Limiters on each output for optimal loudspeaker protection
Adjustable time delay for phase alignment between drivers
CD horn equalization for constant directivity horn compensation
Absolutely flat summed amplitude response, zero phase difference

BEHRINGER FEEDBACK DESTROYER PRO FBQ2496:

Ultra-high performance 2-channel 24-bit/96 kHz Feedback Destroyer and Parametric EQ
Automatically and "intelligently" locates and destroys up to 40 feedback frequencies
Ultra-narrow FBQ filters for extremely effective feedback suppression, while keeping highest sonic quality
Panic button immediately takes action in feedback emergency situations
"Set-and-forget" default setting enables immediate and super-easy Feedback Destroyer performance

BEHRINGER SUPER-X PRO CX2310:

Professional stereo 2-way/mono 3-way crossover featuring state-of-the-art Linkwitz-Riley filters with 24 dB/octave
Additional subwoofer output with independent Frequency control
Absolutely flat summed amplitude response, zero phase difference
Individual output Gain controls for all bands
Individual output Mute switches for easy band adjustment

JBL Professional ES52000 Digital Controller:

(http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Vintage%20JBL-UREI%20Electronics/JBL-ES52000.pdf)

The ES52000 utilizes audiophile grade analog circuitry, 64 times oversampled 18 bit A to D
(analog to digital) converters, and 8 times oversampled 18 bit D to A (digital to analog) conver-
ters, with full 20 kHz bandwidth, 44.1 kHz sampling rate, and 24 bit signal processing in the
digital domain for maximum dynamic range and minimum signal distortion at low levels.

Both inputs are electronically balanced. The four outputs are unbalanced low impedance; optional
transformers may be added by a qualified technician if symmetrical, floating output isolation is
desired.

Thirty-two points of FIR digital equalization are provided in both low frequency and high
frequency bands, in single- and dual-channel modes, to smooth the loudspeaker frequency
response down to approximately 150 Hz.

-Audiophile grade circuitry
-Peak program limiting in each band
-Front panel controls are provided for the adjustment of input gain and muting of each output channel
-Freq response: 10hz-19khz

I also have:

dbx Drive Rack PA:

Setup Wizard Steps Through Speaker and Amp Selection and Levels
Auto EQ„¢ Wizard with 28-Band RTA Tunes Your System For The Venue
AFS® Wizard Helps Eliminate Feedback
Stereo Feedback Elimination with 12 feedback notch filters
dbx 120A Sub-harmonic Synthesizer
Classic dbx Input Compression
JBL® Speaker and Crown® Power Amp Tunings included
USB Firmware and Speaker Tunings Field Updatable With Harman HiQnet„¢ System
Architect
Full time RTA function
Front-Panel Output Mutes
Pink Noise Generator (used with Auto EQ and Auto Level Wizards)
Linked Stereo DSP Processing for ease of use
24-Bit ADC/24-Bit DAC, >113 dB Dynamic Range
2-Channel XLR Input and 6-Channel XLR Output
2x3, 2x4, 2x5, 2x6 Crossover Configurations
Dual 28-band Graphic EQ-Linked or Dual Mono
Stereo Multi-band Parametric EQ
Stereo Output Limiters
Output Alignment Delay
Power on/off Mute Circuitry
Front-panel RTA-M XLR input with phantom power
25 User Programs/25 Factory Programs
Full Graphic LCD Display
Front Panel Input and Output Meters

B+K Precision 2120 - 30 MHz Dual-Trace Oscilloscope:

4" x 5" CRT. equipped with variable scale illumination.
Model 2120 features built-in 50MHz FREQUENCY COUNTER
Built-in COMPONENT TESTER
Dual trace all models for displaying two waveforms simultaneously
Sweep features: Calibrated time measurements. 23 ranges.

HP 3466A Bench Digital Multimeter
Anadex Frequency Synthesizer
AudioControl SA3050 RTA
Hitachi V-665 Dual Trace 60MHz Oscilloscope

Thanks again for your reply and information,

pk

[Ed Zeppeli]

Yes, the main compression driver is the most sensitive and therefore needs less signal to get equal output. If you have an efficient woofer you won't have to pad it down as much. The 1400 Array uses a relatively inefficient woofer.

Well there you go. You can use the driverack!