L220 vs. L250 or 250Ti

[pmakres1]

I'd like some input from real, actual owners of the L220 and L250/250Ti on the sonic comparisons between the two. I've owned my L220A's since 1982, and consider them to be great speakers. I know that some on this forum seem to feel otherwise, though often it seems that these opinions come from members who have little or no ACTUAL experience with them in their OWN listening space, and base their L220 bashing on perhaps one or two limited listening sessions in say, a store, or rely on hearsay, or on what they believe must be true. This has never made sense to me, for two reasons; first, I've owned them for 26 years, and have built and excellent system around them (and a B460, which was added in 2002). Secondly, all of the components of the L220 are well-regarded JBL components, and the system is designed using very sound concepts. I can attest to the L220's performance from years of first hand experience.

On the other hand, I have little or no first hand experience with the L250 or 250Ti, which is why I come to the members here who DO have first hand experience with, hopefully, both systems. What I do know is that the L250/250Ti is a visually stunning speaker, and seems to be held in much higher regard here, generally, than the L220. So, I search for SPECIFIC reasons WHY. I only auditioned a pair of L250's once, very briefly in a store, when it was first introduced. I was generally very impressed, but didn't feel at that time that the improvement warranted replacing my L220's with a pair of L250's.

JeffW has provided me with the kind of informed, first hand knowledge I'm looking for, from his perspective. I thank him for doing so. I'd like to hear from others as well, who have similar experience with both models. I posed this question in another thread, but didn't want to hijack that thread any further...there was at least one other interested member on this topic. So, if Jeff would like to chime in here, or any others it would be great!

Thanks,

Pete

[4313B]

I know that some on this forum seem to feel otherwise, though often it seems that these opinions come from members who have little or no ACTUAL experience with them in their OWN listening space, and base their L220 bashing on perhaps one or two limited listening sessions in say, a store, or rely on hearsay, or on what they believe must be true.I guess I missed all the L220 bashing. Which members who haven't owned a pair have maligned the L220? I think every member that still owns a pair likes them just fine.

I have little or no first hand experience with the L250 or 250Ti, which is why I come to the members here who DO have first hand experience with, hopefully, both systems. What I do know is that the L250/250Ti is a visually stunning speaker, and seems to be held in much higher regard here, generally, than the L220. So, I search for SPECIFIC reasons WHY. I only auditioned a pair of L250's once, very briefly in a store, when it was first introduced. I was generally very impressed, but didn't feel at that time that the improvement warranted replacing my L220's with a pair of L250's.It probably makes more sense to compare the L220 and the 240Ti. The L250 and 250Ti were quite a bit better.

The L220A used the LE14H and PR15C, LE5-9, and 076. While the addition of the PR15C offered a fuller bass response, the response wasn't as deep or tight as the 240Ti, L250 or 250Ti. The time alignment attempt of the LE5-9 in the L220 was realized properly in the L250 and 250Ti with the sloped baffle. The L94 lens of the L220 was superfluous, the direct radiator simply didn't need an acoustic lens in front of it. The 076 had great attack but poor decay, arguably better than the phenolic 044 in the L250 but not as nicely balanced as the 044Ti in the 240Ti or 250Ti.

An LE5-9 was functionally identical to an LE5-11, the L250 used the driver to greater advantage, especially with the vastly improved N250 network. The addition of the 108H in the L250 and 250Ti catapulted it way ahead of the L220 or 240Ti in transient response and overall system performance. Compare the 4333 with the 4343, same concept.

Basically, the L220 was just more of the same while the L250 was a whole new ballgame. The L250 fit in well with the progression Greg was going through at that time. He was really getting the hang of designing world class filters and applying them to new and existing transducers. The 250Ti was quite a bit better than the L250. Better network and better high frequency and ultra-high frequency transducers.

It should be interesting to note that, of all those legendary transducers from years gone by, only the LE14 survives to this day.

[pmakres1]

I guess I missed all the L220 bashing. Which members who haven't owned a pair have maligned the L220? I think every member that still owns a pair likes them just fine.

No need to mention names, some of the members I believe are still here, some may be no longer here. (I was reviewing some old threads the other day, and things like ..the L220, one of the most awful big speakers ever produced...things like that came up.) My point is, why doesn't the L220 seem to get the recognition it deserves? I ask for a comparison to the L250 because that model came out when the L220 was discontinued, as the new "flagship" tower design. The L250 was no doubt a beautiful speaker.

But the L220, even putting "bashing" aside, never seemed to get the kind of recognition that the L250/250Ti, or, say, the L300 gets. And yet, when you look at the design of the L220, it had things going for it that the other two highly venerated models didn't.

I've often wondered why the L220 didn't get much attention.

Pete

[4313B]

My point is, why doesn't the L220 seem to get the recognition it deserves?As I've mentioned before, it really wasn't too highly thought of. It was more of the same. The passive radiator was long in the tooth before JBL decided to put it in the L220. The time alignment idea with the LE5-9 was a miss as was sticking an acoustic lens in front of it. The ring radiators were simply too efficient for the consumer systems. They were far better suited for extreme output in high demand applications. I'm not convinced that the network was the best that it could have been either.
I ask for a comparison to the L250 because that model came out when the L220 was discontinued, as the new "flagship" tower design. The L250 was no doubt a beautiful speaker.The L250 was a significantly better balanced loudspeaker in every respect. As it should have been. Greg put a ton of work into that design. It's legendary.
But the L220, even putting "bashing" aside, never seemed to get the kind of recognition that the L250/250Ti, or, say, the L300 gets. And yet, when you look at the design of the L220, it had things going for it that the other two highly venerated models didn't.I guess I don't see what it had going for it. It was more of the same. People who bought those components through the LCS built their own versions of the L220 before JBL came up with the actual model, although they used the 075 or 077 instead of the 076 and the L91 instead of the L94. The network was the LX30 and it was arguably worse than the N220/N222.
I've often wondered why the L220 didn't get much attention.Well, it would be interesting to know how many models were actually sold. I know a few guys who have their pairs to this day and they bought them when they first came out. None of these forum posts should make you feel bad at all. If you like the loudspeakers that's all that matters. Seriously.

Heck, I like the L300 and 4333, warts and all, and still, to this day, get laughed at when I confess that fact. Yep, I'll always have fond memories of the old "hiss and boom box". Whatever! :p

[pmakres1]

As I've mentioned before, it really wasn't too highly thought of. It was more of the same.

Same? With a the new 076 Ring radiator, designed for the L220. With the new L94 lens, which was also designed for the L220.


The passive radiator was long in the tooth before JBL decided to put it in the L220.

I'll agree with this.



The time alignment idea with the LE5-9 was a miss as was sticking an acoustic lens in front of it.

Why was this a miss? The depth of image and dimensonalism of the L220 is wonderful. The lens was intended to improve dispersion and set the midrange driver back the correct distance from the baffle to attain acoustical alignment with the other drivers, according to JBL.


The ring radiators were simply too efficient for the consumer systems. They were far better suited for extreme output in high demand applications.

The 076 Ring radiator was designed specifically for the L220, the horn throat setting the diaphram back the correct distance from the baffle to attain acoustical alignment.


I'm not convinced that the network was the best that it could have been either.

Perhaps the network of the L250 and 250Ti were superior, but JBL seemed to take pride in the N220 network as well, which incorporated impedence leveling and phase correcting circuitry. Even at very low volume levels, the coherency of the L220 seems exemplary.


The L250 was a significantly better balanced loudspeaker in every respect. As it should have been. Greg put a ton of work into that design. It's legendary.

I have no doubt Greg put a ton of work into the L250. I recognize it as a landmark system. But as I assess the L220's features now, as I did then,
I still see a lot right with the L220.


I guess I don't see what it had going for it. It was more of the same.

See above.


I know a few guys who have their pairs to this day and they bought them when they first came out. None of these forum posts should make you feel bad at all. If you like the loudspeakers that's all that matters. Seriously.

I do like them, seriously. But as I said in my original post, I've no first hand experience in my own listening space with Greg's landmark system, which I've always, and still, find very intriguing. I do LOVE their appearance. But I'm wondering if they would be THAT much better in my listening room than the L220...which is why I asked for some first-hand observations from those who have lived with both.

So far, I'm not hearing from them in this thread.

Pete

[Titanium Dome]

I had an L222 Disco pair, which is as close as I can get. I didn't keep them long. I had an L250 set at about the same time. I still have them, though there are speakers I like better. I haven't had a 250Ti, though I have two pairs of 240Ti.

The L222 was a powerful performer, but not my cup of tea. The L250 was smoother, more refined, and had a wonderful coherence from bottom to top.

The L222 had a much hotter top than the L250 and a bigger bottom, too, but all in all the L250 pleased me, while the L222 impressed me at first but could never quite please me.

[jbl4ever]

It was just a progression with JBL. I started with some L166's then L65's
Went into Music Craft one day and came home with the L222 also. They
were nice sounding for the time. The dreaded Disco's what a name:barf:
As you go up the food change like L200B's then L300's. Next came the
more tech versions Ti series in which so much more was learned. The L220's
still a very nice speaker, if I had room maybe 1 pair just to remember the
old days:)

[4313B]

Same? With a the new 076 Ring radiator, designed for the L220. With the new L94 lens, which was also designed for the L220.The very nice looking 076 was an 075/077 with a different horn assembly. The overall performance of the 077 was actually better and the 076/2403 didn't last too long. The attractive aluminum L94 lens was a straight through version of the plastic L91 lens.

The L220 used the PR15C, LE14H, LE5H, and 076, all from the Loudspeaker Component Series. It also used the better N220 network instead of the old LX30 network. The concept was similar to the L65. Before the 076 was available people used the 077. It was a dated design before it even hit Production. Nevertheless, it served its purpose and filled a price point. People did like them and they bought them.
The depth of image and dimensonalism of the L220 is wonderful. The lens was intended to improve dispersion and set the midrange driver back the correct distance from the baffle to attain acoustical alignment with the other drivers, according to JBL.

The 076 Ring radiator was designed specifically for the L220, the horn throat setting the diaphram back the correct distance from the baffle to attain acoustical alignment.

Perhaps the network of the L250 and 250Ti were superior, but JBL seemed to take pride in the N220 network as well, which incorporated impedence leveling and phase correcting circuitry. Even at very low volume levels, the coherency of the L220 seems exemplary.

I have no doubt Greg put a ton of work into the L250. I recognize it as a landmark system. But as I assess the L220's features now, as I did then, I still see a lot right with the L220.Then I think you would be best served hanging on to them and continuing to enjoy them. :yes:
But as I said in my original post, I've no first hand experience in my own listening space with Greg's landmark system, which I've always, and still, find very intriguing. I do LOVE their appearance. But I'm wondering if they would be THAT much better in my listening room than the L220...which is why I asked for some first-hand observations from those who have lived with both.
So far, I'm not hearing from them in this thread. Having extensive experience with the L220 and L250 in a variety of listing venues I have no problem at all with stating that the L250 was superior in every way. And it should be.

In all fairness the L220 should probably be compared with the 240Ti rather than the L250 or 250Ti. The 240Ti was better in every respect as well. I personally preferred the lower cost L150A over the L220A due to its more sensible overall system balance.

I had an L222 Disco pair, which is as close as I can get.Close enough to get an overall impression. The L222 just had some mass missing off the passive radiator to tune the box up higher for more thump. Same concept as whacking a few inches of length off the end of a ducted port.
The dreaded Disco's what a name :barf:Aww, come on! They were fun!

[SEAWOLF97]

It was just a progression with JBL. I started with some L166's then L65's

Ok..this question has come up before...comparing the L166 vs. L65.

I have not heard both in a comparison test..One of our local members owns both, and prefers the L166.. Since you have owned both, what is your opinion ?

OBTW: 250ti's are OK. Worth the price ? dunno

[4313B]

Since you have owned both, what is your opinion ?L166.

The Consumer systems that ran the ring radiators were always too bright for me.

The L65 sounded better way up off the floor but that kind of defeats the purpose of the end table design. :p

The L55 and L65 boxes make nice subwoofer boxes after you reinforce them a bit.

[pmakres1]

The attractive aluminum L94 lens was a straight through version of the plastic L91 lens.

By straight through, I assume you mean without the horn, as the L94 lens plates themselves are folded.

The L91 lens was plastic?? :blink:


Then I think you would be best served hanging on to them and continuing to enjoy them. :yes:

As I've lived with my L220A's for this long, I'd certainly have no problem doing that a while longer. But the things I'm hearing here are causing my interest level in the L250/250Ti to increase, and should the right opportunity (and of course financial circumstance) arise, I just may explore this avenue more seriously. But, I'd still have a hard time letting go of my 220's, and I'd have no room to store them, or even put them in one of my smaller systems. They are too big for that.


Having extensive experience with the L220 and L250 in a variety of listing venues I have no problem at all with stating that the L250 was superior in every way. And it should be.

I'm glad you added this sentence...this is what I'm looking for, opinions from those who have had time to really listen to both systems; not just a blanket statement saying what an awful system the L220 is-which it isn't.


In all fairness the L220 should probably be compared with the 240Ti rather than the L250 or 250Ti.

I like the tall tower concept, with a tweeter height more along the lines of the 220 or 250. But hey, I've never heard the 240....


I personally preferred the lower cost L150A over the L220A due to its more sensible overall system balance.

I never listened to the L150A extensively enough to have an opinion here...I knew one fellow who had them, and he felt the 220 was superior.
To each his own....


The L222 just had some mass missing off the passive radiator to tune the box up higher for more thump. Same concept as whacking a few inches of length off the end of a ducted port.

Right, I think the 222 just had one less weight on the back of the Passive Radiator.

4313B: I appreciate your chiming in on this thread; it's been very helpful. :yes:

Oh and BTW, I assume from you're handle you're a 4313B fan...so am I, I have a nice pair of these on my Florida Room system. They're sitting on a pair of original JBL L100 floor stands that I modified slightly (made shorter front-to-back arms) to accomodate the 4313B more ideally. This only affected the upward tilt very slightly.

Thanks again!

Pete

[pmakres1]

The L250 was smoother, more refined, and had a wonderful coherence from bottom to top.

Titanium Dome: This is one thing I do remember from the short audition I had of the L250 way back when. I was struck by its overall smoothness.

Pete

[4313B]

By straight through, I assume you mean without the horn, as the L94 lens plates themselves are folded.Fig. 4. Serpentine (top) and slant-plate path length refractors. (http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/reference/technical/lens/page02.jpg)
The L91 lens was plastic?? :blink:Yes.
Oh and BTW, I assume from you're handle you're a 4313B fan...Yes. Someday I'll charge couple a pair just for grins.

[mike]

I wouldn't sell your L220's too short. They are definitely different and less refined than the 250Ti's, but the 250Ti's are not necessarily more enjoyable. I own a pair of 250Ti's and while they are excellent at what they were designed to do some people find them a little too laid back and lifeless when they first hear them. It really depends on your personal taste and what type of music you usually listen to. They are also picky about electronics like most upper end audiophile speakers. The overall sound they produce can vary quite a bit depending on the electronics and somewhat with the speaker cable. I think if you got a pair you would be surprised at how different they sound than your current speakers. If you have ever heard any of the older AR or other "east coast" speakers you will have a vague idea of the character of the 250Ti's. I like mine and would never sell them but I think a fan of L220's would have to live with them for a while in order to get used to them.
Mike

[SEAWOLF97]

They are definitely different and less refined than the 250Ti's, but the 250Ti's are not necessarily more enjoyable. I own a pair of 250Ti's and while they are excellent at what they were designed to do some people find them a little too laid back and lifeless when they first hear them. It really depends on your personal taste and what type of music you usually listen to. The overall sound they produce can vary quite a bit depending on the electronics and somewhat with the speaker cable. If you have ever heard any of the older AR or other "east coast" speakers you will have a vague idea of the character of the 250Ti's.
Mike

OK.

I own 250ti's and have a whole two months experience.
They are smooth , as mentioned above. BUT they can sound quite ordinary or exceptional, depending on program source. As someone who has had many years with older AR's, I must disagree with Mikes statement above.

After 2 weeks of experimenting, I set ALL the bus bars down 1 level...in "0" mode it was way too hot and I am generally someone who dials other JBL's UP a bit (59 y.o ears) ....BUT...on frequency sweeps , I can get 14k and sometimes 15k tones.

[JeffW]

The general consensus in this thread is similar to what I told Pete in a PM.

To me, and lots of qualifiers here, the midrange and bass of the L220 are kind of weak until they get cranking. That the highs of the L220 were described as "too bright" is also close to my experience...I have the HF pot turned way down on the L220 and the MF a little past 1/2 way to get them to play well with the 250Ti's in the same room. I run them all at the same time most of the time, all on the same EQ, so if I take the L220's off by themselves and EQ them to play alone, they are capable of sounding much different than how I'm using them now. I also can't say how I have the X-over bars on the 250Ti's set.

Also, I listened to the L220's for a few years before I got the 250Ti's (and I know I have apostrophes in the wrong place, but the plural "250Tis" doesn't look right), and had a bit of buyer's remorse until I got accustomed to how they sounded. Now I do definitely prefer the sound of them. EQ'd the same as the L220's, the L220's don't get a fair shake, If they were set up on a separate (but otherwise equal) system and A/B'd vs the 250Ti's I think the differences could be compensated for to a degree that would make the comparison closer.

I had a set of L150's before the L220's, in fact I traded the L150's in towards the L220's and never regretted it. I was just punishing the L150's past what they could handle, but the L220's took that same punishment for years (they've had surrounds since then, as have the 250Ti's on the 14"). I never liked the L150's and was very happy that the dealer took them back in trade (Sound Systems Limited, Amarillo).

Now the bottom line: With my system set up as it is, running both the L220's and 250Ti's in the same room powered by an old Sansui G-9700 and an equalizer (just a passive Sansui), both pairs of speakers running sound very good. They actually do compliment each other if you have the room. I usually prefer that sound to either pair alone, but it's set up to where I can just turn the L220's off if I really want to listen to the 250Ti's. I never turn the 250Ti's off just to listen to the L220's unless doing comparisons like this, but I could. Maybe two pairs of 250Ti's would be better, but this is what I've got.

I'll never sell either pair so long as I can get surrounds and keep them running. I don't listen nearly as loud as I used to, so I think the rest of the drivers will survive me.

I would like a pair of of 18Ti's if anybody has a reasonably priced pair they'd sell.