4411's?

[Doc Mark]

Greetings, All,

May I ask, who has 4411's, and what do you think of them? A pair might be coming my way soon. A new friend is holding them for me, until I make up my mind. He's the original owner, and has their boxes, and everything. Thanks for any comments on these speakers you might be willing to share. I've not heard them, myself, and will rely on you all for advice in this situation. Thanks, again, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[brutal]

:applaud: haven't heard them, but they're the nearfield control monitor version of the L112. 128H, LE5-12(?) 044

If it's a fair price, take them. Hell, I'll buy them!


http://audio-heritage.jp/JBL/speaker/4411.JPG

[Doc Mark]

.... I could have SWORN that Grumpy tossed his thoughts into the mix, but don't see them now..... Hummmmm, guess I'm slipping over the edge.... AGAIN!! :blink:;):D

Hey, Brutal,

Thanks, very much for your thoughts on those! A new friend, in an email discussion, mentioned that he had a pair for sale, and I'm going over to see them week after next. I'll report back, to let you know how it all turns out. Price seems more than fair, to me. More later.... Thanks, again, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[hjames]

.... I could have SWORN that Grumpy tossed his thoughts into the mix, but don't see them now..... Hummmmm, guess I'm slipping over the edge.... AGAIN!! :blink:;):D

Every Good Wish,
Doc

Well, you should know that a couple of folks on this site treat their posts here like PMs -
post to a thread, then delete them a few hours later before the web 'bots spider their words to the world.-

Don't know if Grumpy did that, but a number of folks (including me) have done that here on occasion ...
so maybe its NOT you slipping ... we may all be gettin' a tich of that grey round the edges ...

:)

[Doc Mark]

Hey, Heather,

Good thought. I'll send Grumpy a PM, and see if I was delusional, or not! ;):D

At my age, I am down to a single brain cell, and if it's not scraping against the inside of my near empty noggin, and causing a spark, I am pretty much flat-lined in the brain power area..................................

WHAT!?!? Did you say something????!!!:blink:;):D Thanks, again, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[grumpy]

... or you're also delusional. ;)
PM sent.

[Doc Mark]

Hi, Grumpy,

Sounds about right..... for me!! ;):D (Thanks for the PM!) :D

Doc

[jbl-ahhh]

If you are still considering the 4411s, my two cents is that they are super. I got mine from a neighbor with a recording studio who upgraded to new JBL studio monitors when the 4411s needed refoaming. They are the top speakers I have, and I love 'em. I hear music in my CDs I didn't know was there. Room placement is a factor, as with my other speakers, but I think there is a lot of leeway.

[Doc Mark]

Hi, jbl-ahhh,

Thanks for the shout, and for the positive recommendation for the 4411's! Yes, I'm definitely going to stop by and check them out, week after next. If they are as nice as my friend says, then I'll go for them. He thinks they may need new foam on the woofers, but I'll see when I get to his house. He's holding them for me, and will not offer them on FleaBay, as he originally was going to do. I'm glad to hear that you like them, and imagine that I, too, will find them very nice, indeed! I'll most certainly post a note here, if, or when I buy them. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[DavidF]

Hi, jbl-ahhh,

Thanks for the shout, and for the positive recommendation for the 4411's! Yes, I'm definitely going to stop by and check them out, week after next. If they are as nice as my friend says, then I'll go for them. He thinks they may need new foam on the woofers, but I'll see when I get to his house. He's holding them for me, and will not offer them on FleaBay, as he originally was going to do. I'm glad to hear that you like them, and imagine that I, too, will find them very nice, indeed! I'll most certainly post a note here, if, or when I buy them. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc
I have not heard these in original format. I have listened to my own assembly of the drivers with a made-to-spec crossover, though. I found them to be dynamic (a given) with splendid clarity up to very high volume levels. If you need the last-word in imaging and stage position these will not work. Placement is critical as these are not meant for position close to borders- floor or walls. If so placed bass and lower mids will not seem balanced.

[Akira]

I picked up a pair for a steal--trade for an outdated LXP reverb ($100 value)
If placed properly these are the most accurate of all my JBL's and I only drag them out when I have to mixdown a project, then they go in the closet again.
The 4411's are the end result of the long line of 4310 series monitors and fittingly are the best of the lot. You might say that this is the model that they finally got right. I've always been a 4311 hater. Love the 4310's (especially during their era and time in history) but, the 4411's are a proper mixdown monitor--a tool to make critical decisions of my mixes.

[BMWCCA]

The 4411's are the end result of the long line of 4310 series monitors and fittingly are the best of the lot. You might say that this is the model that they finally got right. I've always been a 4311 hater. Love the 4310's (especially during their era and time in history) but, the 4411's are a proper mixdown monitor--a tool to make critical decisions of my mixes. Yesterday 12:31 PMSince you opened the door, how do you compare the 4412 and 4412A to the 4411 and or L112? I always like to hear the opinions of someone in the biz. Any experience with the later stuff? :thmbsup:

Thanks.

[Doc Mark]

Hey, BMWCCA,

This is a good question, and one about which I've wondered, myself. I have one old 4312A that I got at a swap meet in San Diego, a few years ago, for $20. It's been beat to holy heck, and the woofer has a split in the cone. But, everything, including the woofer, which was glued back together, still works quite well. Before finding these 4411's, I had given thought to gathering another complete set of matching JBL components, and building a new pair of boxes for them. A sort of DYI 4312A, I guess. However, if the 4411's work out, I will very probably shelf that rebuilding idea, as I don't really have room for collecting lots of JBL systems, and the 4411's will fulfill my "medium sized monitor" needs, quite well, I think.

So, how DOES that model differ in sound characteristics from the others that have preceeded it, and also those that came after it? I'm keen to hear all opinions on this! Thanks, very much, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[Akira]

Since you opened the door, how do you compare the 4412 and 4412A to the 4411 and or L112? I always like to hear the opinions of someone in the biz. Any experience with the later stuff? :thmbsup:

Thanks.

I am not a good reference when it comes to judging the difference between speakers...although I can be quite opinionated.

Working with monitors is quite different than listening to speakers because you are critically trying to hear certain things in a 'familiar confirming' way. Also the way you judge a mix boils down to familiarity and age. I grew up with the products from the 70's and being old school I base my entire mix around the mid range of a 3way box. Younger engineers just don't do that. They are used to seamless 2way or co-axe systems. Neither is right; only the end product matters.

This is why I like the 4411's. They sit mirror imaged, horizontal 2' past my desk in 'free' air. Easy to judge, good imaging, reasonably neutral and non fatiguing. More important--I'm just used to them.

For this reason, I don't like L112's. Their configuration is better suited for home listening.

I realize that the 4412's are a later incarnation, but I've never heard them. I am sure that they are great and I know I could work with them just by their configuration.

BUT, WHAT I WOULD REALLY LIKE ARE A PAIR OF LSR6328...got to move into the 21 century sometime. Besides, these days the only speaker I am forced to work with are Genelecs--the industry standard for post work. But, when it comes to mixing music...GIVE ME JBL OR GIVE ME DEATH

[BMWCCA]

Thanks for the reply. So the 4" difference in HF placement makes that much difference in a studio? Do you run the UF to the outside or the inside? Are you running nearfield? Was that 2' reference in the horizontal plane or were you just two-feet away from them? How far apart?

L112 is mirror-imaged, too. Or is the LE5-9 that much different than the LE5-12?

Just curious.

Thanks again.

http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/specs/home-speakers/1980-l112/thumbs/page3_small1.jpg

[4313B]

"Or is the LE5-9 that much different than the LE5-12?"

The LE5-9/LE5-11 is more powerful than the LE5-10/LE5-12.

They run completely different networks. David did the 4411 and Greg did the L112.

[Doc Mark]

"Or is the LE5-9 that much different than the LE5-12?"

The LE5-9/LE5-11 is more powerful than the LE5-10/LE5-12.

They run completely different networks. David did the 4411 and Greg did the L112.

Evening, All,

So, just to make sure I understand, the 4411's have the LE5-9, is that right? Also, how robust is the tweeter in the 4411's? Seems I've read that folks are babying theirs, as it's not longer available for replacement. Is that right? If so, should I worry about that, or not? Thanks, again, for all thoughts and comments. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

P.S. If I end up buying the 4411's, I'm going to see next week, I'll very probably take them to Ken at Upland Loudspeaker, as I've never refoamed a woofer, and if they need it, would rather make sure it's done right, by a pro. I'll "practice" that craft on something that I don't mind messing up!! ;):D Thanks, again!

[4313B]

Neither the LE5-9/LE5-11 or 044 are serviceable by JBL any longer.

I don't see any reason to "baby" the 044 if it is correctly installed in an L96, L112, L150A or 4411.

If I'm not mistaken the gold 044-1 diaphragm is still available.

[BMWCCA]

Also, how robust is the tweeter in the 4411's? Seems I've read that folks are babying theirs, as it's not longer available for replacement. Is that right? If so, should I worry about that, or not? Like all JBL UHF drivers; make sure you're giving them enough clean power to work with. I've driven my L112s hard for over twenty years with no problem but they've never had anything less than a Crown D150 running them. I have laid-in a pair of 044 spares but just so I can keep my L150As and L112s running for my grandchildren's benefit——should I ever have any grandchildren! In over 50 years of JBLs I've only blown one UHF, and that was back in the '70s with an 075 driven by a Kenwood reciever which, according to JBL's goodwill repair at no-charge invoice, must have had a "high-frequency oscillation".

[Akira]

Thanks for the reply. So the 4" difference in HF placement makes that much difference in a studio? Do you run the UF to the outside or the inside? Are you running nearfield? Was that 2' reference in the horizontal plane or were you just two-feet away from them? How far apart?

L112 is mirror-imaged, too. Or is the LE5-9 that much different than the LE5-12?



The one thing I have learned about sound is people hear what they want to hear...and very often they hear what they see.

I run my 4411's with the woofers on the outside, above the desk, a total of roughly 5' away in the traditional equal lateral triangle. (5' between mid/high drivers)

Does the off set configuration of the L112 make that much of a difference? I believe it does, but maybe it's just me. You will notice a lot of the JBL pro monitors have their mid/high drivers in a cluster as opposed to a line array. So how much difference does this make? You tell me. A little off topic, but an interesting one.

My brain want's to see the tweeter vertically above and close to the mid driver. I actually prefer a straight vertical alingment of all drivers but, then height starts to play into a near field setup, so the 4411/4412 setup works fine in that respect. INTERESTING TO NOTE that while the mid/high forms a vertical alignment, adding the woofer forms a triangular cluster. In close quarters this seems to agree with what I want to hear and what I want to see.
In the end I believe studio monitoring is an unnatural way to listen to music and it is largely based on familiarity and wanting to produce a specific result. So yes to me I don't like to monitor on an off set configuration.

As for the LE5 series, to me they mostly sound the same. The primary difference being the earlier LE5-2 drivers were really harsh. They also came with a choice of long and short coils which changed the high end. (I found this out the hard way with mismatched coils) The later LE5's seem to be more reasonable (tamer) but they still have that forward voicing quality that to me IS JBL.

[brutal]

Like all JBL UHF drivers; make sure you're giving them enough clean power to work with. I've driven my L112s hard for over twenty years with no problem but they've never had anything less than a Crown D150 running them. I have laid-in a pair of 044 spares but just so I can keep my L150As and L112s running for my grandchildren's benefit——should I ever have any grandchildren! In over 50 years of JBLs I've only blown one UHF, and that was back in the '70s with an 075 driven by a Kenwood reciever which, according to JBL's goodwill repair at no-charge invoice, must have had a "high-frequency oscillation".

Ditto. I've driven mine hard since 1983, always with good clean Yamaha amps from 120WPC to 250WPC and even (estimated) 660WPC bridged M-80's. The "office" L112's I resurrected are pulling duty on a newly acquired MX-2000 and feeding them as little as 50WPC from this 130WPC MOSFET (hybrid Class-A) amp is just about enough to drive you out of the room, yet still non-fatiguing.

[BMWCCA]

INTERESTING TO NOTE that while the mid/high forms a vertical alignment, adding the woofer forms a triangular cluster. In close quarters this seems to agree with what I want to hear and what I want to see. Thanks for the explanation. I'm now left wondering if the non-cluster arrangement of the 4410A (JBL even calls it a "vertical line array") somehow explains why some here prefer the sound of the 4410A to the 4412A in home use. Though most say it has better bass performance. I guess I'll just have to find a pair to compare. My 4412As are in a small room with a triangulation only slightly larger than your studio setup. Sound fine to me.
http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/specs/pro-speakers/1995-4400a-series/page3.jpg

[4313B]

The primary difference being the earlier LE5-2 drivers were really harsh.JBL said that was due to the alnico basket. JBL was pleasantly surprised that the ferrite version actually sounded better. Evidently it wasn't expected.
They also came with a choice of long and short coils which changed the high end.The odd numbered LE5's had the more powerful copper ribbon voice coils while the even numbered LE5's had the round wire voice coils. Only the round wire voice coil kits are still available from JBL today.

Does the off set configuration of the L112 make that much of a difference? I believe it does, but maybe it's just me. You will notice a lot of the JBL pro monitors have their mid/high drivers in a cluster as opposed to a line array. So how much difference does this make? You tell me. A little off topic, but an interesting one.

I'm now left wondering if the non-cluster arrangement of the 4410A (JBL even calls it a "vertical line array") somehow explains why some here prefer the sound of the 4410A to the 4412A in home use.The vertical array seems to work better at greater distances. In the home most people don't sit a few feet away from their loudspeakers. Note the modern LSR32 and how the baffle can be rotated for either configuration.

Like I mentioned before, the networks are the key. While the driver complements are basically identical except for the LE5, the networks make them completely different animals. The 4411 runs the 3109 (http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Network%20Schematics/3109%20Network.pdf) network that can be found on the JBL Pro website and the L96/L112/L150A runs a cheaper, slightly modified version of the 4313 network and it can be found on the JBL Consumer website; N112 (http://www.harmanservice.com/JBL/HOM/Technical%20Sheet/L112%20ts.pdf)

[BMWCCA]

Sorry to drag this out, but where does the 104H-2 fit in this hierarchy, and the N4412A/74853 network?

And, of course, can the network from the 4411 be used as an upgrade for the L112/L150, or would the LE5/9 be necessary to make it work as intended?

Thanks. I know; curiosity killed the cat. I love my cats. I'll stop asking. ;)

[4313B]

Sorry to drag this out, but where does the 104H-2 fit in this hierarchy, and the N4412A/74853 network?The 104H-2 is a better driver than the older LE5 series. The N4412A is a newer network design.
And, of course, can the network from the 4411 be used as an upgrade for the L112/L150, or would the LE5/9 be necessary to make it work as intended?I don't consider the 4411 network as an upgrade to the L96/L112/L150A network. They're just different. I personally prefer listening to the L96/L112/L150A systems.

I've never tried a 4411 with anything other than an LE5-9. The L96/L112/L150A can use the LE5-9/LE5-11 or LE5-10/LE5-12. The efficiency difference can be taken up in the L-Pad. JBL used the LE5-9 in the 4313 and the LE5-12 in the L96/L112/L150A.

[BMWCCA]

They're just different. I personally prefer listening to the L96/L112/L150A systems. Thanks for you opinion. I suppose I just fell for your use of the word "cheaper" in describing the L112 network. Cheaper is not always less-good, apparently. I always enjoy hearing the opinions of others on this list with far more and more varied experiences with this stuff than I have. Saves me a lot of time, effort, and money.

[hjames]

Thanks for you opinion. I suppose I just fell for your use of the word "cheaper" ... Cheaper is not always less-good, apparently. ...
Saves me a lot of time, effort, and money.

yeah, you and that cheap L7 system of yours ... mayhan!

http://images.bimmerforums.com/smilies/rofl1.gif

[4313B]

Thanks for you opinion. I suppose I just fell for your use of the word "cheaper" in describing the L112 network. Cheaper is not always less-good, apparently. I always enjoy hearing the opinions of others on this list with far more and more varied experiences with this stuff than I have. Saves me a lot of time, effort, and money.The N96/N112/N150A network was a cheaper version of the 4313/4313B network. JBL removed/changed a couple parts in the woofer and midrange circuits. The tweeter parts remained the same. The 4411 network was more expensive than either due to the increased number of parts and component values.

[Regis]

The N96/N112/N150A network was a cheaper version of the 4313/4313B network. JBL removed/changed a couple parts in the woofer and midrange circuits. The tweeter parts remained the same. The 4411 network was more expensive than either due to the increased number of parts and component values.

That brought back memories of what the 4313 network did for the stock L150's. I must've modified four pairs to this configuration and it sounded way superior to the stock crossover. The L-150 with a 2214H, LE5-9 and the improved network was quite a performer! Your help was appreciated!

[Doc Mark]

Evening, All,

Well, it's a done deal! I stopped by the seller's house, when on the way to an out of State event, and checked out the 4411's. They were in pretty good shape, though one woofer really needs new foam. Everything else looked pretty good, and I bought them for $200, complete with their original boxes and styrofoam supports. I'll be taking them to Ken for a refoam job, and then will test them out to see how they sound. I'm pleased, so far, and look forward to enjoying them, when time presents.

One fun bit of news: I FINALLY cleaned up the living room, and can take some photos of our L300's, 4333's, 4411's, and other assorted JBL goodies, which I will post here. Thanks for being patient about that! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc (who is beat, after a round trip of 1,400+ miles of driving, but tickled to have a nice pair of JBL 4411's!)

[Doc Mark]

Greetings, Friends,

OK, I ran into a problem whilst trying to remove the woofers from my "new" 4411's. They both seem to be stuck fast! I note that the baffle is countersunk a bit, and prying them out, or breaking the seal with a thin putty knife, is not going to work.

I called Edgewound, and he offered a few suggestions, which I definitely will try. But, I also thought I'd ask for more ideas from those others that might have already walked this path, if you would be so kind as to share them with me.

I did a search for "removing stuck woofers", and other such things, but really didn't get too much info that was usable. Thanks for any help you can send my way. Failing all else, I guess I'll have to schelp both enclosures down to Edgewould, and see what he might have better luck than have I, so far. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[SEAWOLF97]

had same prob many times...

lay speaker face down on carpet after LF screws are out....wad up bath towel and place to protect tweeter so it doesnt contact rug ....pick up one long edge of cab abt 4 inches off floor and drop. usually when cab stops, LF keeps going (out) ....sounds drastic, but works well and have never damaged. just place towel in appropriate place, thats the trick.

[brutal]

99% of the time, a stainless hook tool in one of the screw holes works for me. Sometimes a slight rap on the cab while pulling...

I've had to resort to the "drop" method once or twice.

[Doc Mark]

YEE-HAWWWW!!! I FINALLY got both 128H's to come out!!! Man, that was an ordeal!! Oh, well, good things are worth waiting for, right?! ;)

So, now I will be heading down the mountain to pick up Sweet Bride from the airport, tomorrow afternoon. BUT, before I do there, I'll be paying Edgewound a little visit!! I'll take both 128H's, and have him refoam them with JBL kits. He also told me he can put a new dust cap on my 2242H, for not too much coin, so that will be going along, too, just for grins. Oooooohhh, I'm excited!!! Can you tell??!!??!! :bouncy::bouncy::D:D

Thanks for all the suggestions, and comments! In the end, it was something that Ken (Edgewound) told me, which actually worked just right. I'll check with him, to make sure I'm telling it properly, and then will post the tip here, FYI. I can hardly wait to get those 4411's up and running to spec! Hummmm, a subwoofer with the 4411's??? Just keeps getting more and more fun, Folks!! Thanks, again, Friends! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[Doc Mark]

Good Evening, Friends,

Just time for a short note, but today I dropped of the pair of 128H's, and my 2242HPL, at Edgewound's place, Upland Loudspeaker Service. I have to say that Ken (Edgewound), is a great Guy, and that we enjoyed quite a bit of time just talking JBL, and many other things. He's going to refoam the 128H's, and replace the smooshed-in dust cap on the 2242HPL. He tested all three drivers whilst I was there, and all three came out with a clean bill of health. That 2242H sure had some excursion, when he cranked up the tone generator!! :blink::blink:

It ended up that Ken and I have much in common, and share quite similar thoughts about myriad topics. Our time just chewing the fat just seemed to fly by, and next thing you know, it was past time for me to head to the airport to pick up Sweet Bride!! Good thing his place isn't that far from the airport! But, I already look forward to have a chance to talk more with Ken. He's a quality Gent, and I'm glad he's going to work on my JBL's to get them back in to fighting shape!! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[scott fitlin]

Good Evening, Friends,

That 2242H sure had some excursion, when he cranked up the tone generator!! :blink::blink:


DocYeah, especially when they drop te test tone down to 15 or 10 hz, watching cone move in and out, and HOW FAR IT CAN GO, it,s like wow.

That kind of excursion is something you'll never see it do at home.

[Doc Mark]

Hey, Scotty,

Man, are you right!! I was shocked to see just how far it would move, without damage!! "Excursion City", that's for sure! I ran the numbers on that 2242H, and it looks pretty good in an 8-10 cubic foot box, tuned from 25-30HZ. At first, I was a little disappointed to see their performance, right there on the graph. But, then I got to thinking about it, and realized that what they can offer, is exactly what I've been wanting: just a bit of extra OOMPH on the bottom end, to free up the L300's from having to do that work. We'll see how it all turns out.

But, as I wrote, it was a real pleasure meeting Edgewound down at his shop, yesterday! The place is like a JBL/EV/etc., Treasure Trove, with lots of fun stuff laying about!! And Ken is a good man - funny, intelligent, and interesting. He obviously knows his business very well, and I feel confident that my JBLs will be done in a perfect manner, and will perform up to spec, when I pick them up from him. I'm looking forward to hearing those 4411's, and also to playing with the 2242H, after either seeking out, or building, a proper home for it!! And, I'm sure that Ken will be getting more business from me, as time passes. We'll have to setup another JBL/LH Member lunch, such as Sweet Bride and I enjoyed with Grumpy, Bart, and his family, and while back!! Ken is up for it, so we'll most certainly have to make it happen! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[scott fitlin]

Hey, Scotty,

Man, are you right!! I was shocked to see just how far it would move, without damage!! "Excursion City", that's for sure! I ran the numbers on that 2242H, and it looks pretty good in an 8-10 cubic foot box, tuned from 25-30HZ. At first, I was a little disappointed to see their performance, right there on the graph. But, then I got to thinking about it, and realized that what they can offer, is exactly what I've been wanting: just a bit of extra OOMPH on the bottom end, to free up the L300's from having to do that work. We'll see how it all turns out.

But, as I wrote, it was a real pleasure meeting Edgewound down at his shop, yesterday! The place is like a JBL/EV/etc., Treasure Trove, with lots of fun stuff laying about!! And Ken is a good man - funny, intelligent, and interesting. He obviously knows his business very well, and I feel confident that my JBLs will be done in a perfect manner, and will perform up to spec, when I pick them up from him. I'm looking forward to hearing those 4411's, and also to playing with the 2242H, after either seeking out, or building, a proper home for it!! And, I'm sure that Ken will be getting more business from me, as time passes. We'll have to setup another JBL/LH Member lunch, such as Sweet Bride and I enjoyed with Grumpy, Bart, and his family, and while back!! Ken is up for it, so we'll most certainly have to make it happen! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
DocOk, now we can talk further.

My cabinets I had Mr. widget do something that I read about in another cabinet designers portfolio. Variable Tuning, which Mr. Widget graciously agreed to do. As well as Mr. Widget designing the cabs to house each driver in its own 8cu ft volume.

Its seems like a rather novel idea to me too. I have two different sets of port tubes, and using all the short tubes gives me a 27hz tuning, approximately, all long port tubes gives me a 40hz tuning, and using two shorts, and two longs per drivder, 35hz.

Now, Widget asked me what kind of tuning I wanted, and pretty much, 35hz was what I was after, as in doing MUCH reading, and looking at most of the cabinets used for SR, and Dance applications, 35hz is a number i came across frequently. And, in my readings, some manufacturers even state 35hz to be a good tuning frequency, offering a GOOD balance of both PUNCH and DEEP bass.

And you know, when I fist started using them, I tried the various tunings I had available to me, to see what I liked and worked BEST for me.

The 27hz tuning, which is more of a Movie theater subwoofer cabinet was the deepest, BUT lacked that KICK, that punch that I like/want/need, for my application. It just didn't do it for me.

The 40hz tuning, this was the LOUDEST, watt for watt, and had a TON of KICK, but a too shallow sounding, a knocking midbass, not enough deep ooomph.

Now, to my original chosing of 35hz, and WOW, now the bottom end rounded out, has a NICE deep oomph, and a sweet kick and punch, without being offensive to my ears.

another thing Mr. Widget did for me, was OVERBUILD these cabinets, I had an idea, even then, that HIGH POWER was where I was headed, and I wanted a cabinet that wouldn't rattle itself loose, and give me the BUZZ sound from hell. Again, Mr. Widget suggested something and I said YES thats the TICKET! He constructed these cabinets, double walls, 3/4in MDF, bonded to 3/4in baltic Birch! 1.5in wall thickness, and about the DENSEST cabinet I have ever rapped my knuckles on, feels like concrete you wont hit your knuckles on these cabs, too hard, too often. BUT, SOLID they are, they do weigh, thouigh, about 400lbs each!

Since I AM not a mobile system, or touring rig, they stay where they play and weight wasn't an issue for me. Man, I'll tell you this, NOISE, Buzz, and Rattle is NOT something you hear from tese cabinets! AT ALL! So, for me, THIS WORKED and WORKS WELL, very well.

Of course, I am a dance club sound, NOT a High End home or studio sound. So, what I'm doing is DELIBERATELY different from these other two applications, so, when you hear my system kick, and the bass notes thunder and roar, Its not that the system is INACCURATE, its doing what IT is designed to do, ENTERTAIN PEOPLE! Which, IMO, IT MORE than DOES WELL!

Now, your 4411,s and this 2242, similar to what I had as a young man, that I loved very much! And the foam edge woofers in the 4411,s were not AS PUNCHY AS ANOTHER SPEAKER PAIR THAT I had, the 4312, this speaker has a cloth pleated, doped surround, and the 4312 isnt as deep sounding as ther 4411. But, this combinatiuon of 4411,s and 2240 worked for me, because I liked punchy bass, and the 4411,s gave me a sound that sounded fairly deep, and it worked for me. VERY MUCH.

And IF you can do variable tuning in your cabinet for your 18in driver, you know, that will give more than just a good idea of WHAT you like better.

And, even though I know that what I'm saying is the " Anti Thesis " of what TRUE Hi Fi playback is really about, this is what sounded good to me, and still does. And if you can do variable tuning, you'll know in a jiffy, what you prefer. You see I look at it this way, tastes in audio, and how a speaker sounds, is as individual as our tastes in music, cars, food, women, men, hairstyles, etc!

Hey, if you find the lower frequency tuning to be your favorite, and you decide the 2245, TRUE subwoofer is the way you really want to go, YOU CAN GET a 2245, selling the 2242 wouldn't be a problem, and HEY, pretty much, your bound to make a nice profit and fund the complete 2245 off selling the 2242, considering what you paid for the 2242! So, your in a WIN, WIN, WIN situation. YOU CAN'T LOSE!

THAT can NEVER be a BAD thing!

As I see it!

:bouncy:

[Doc Mark]

Howdy, Scotty,

Thanks for the great additional info, and insight! It's great to talk with folks like you, and others here at LH, who have already trod the path down which I wish to go! I absolutely understand the need for a solid cabinet, which will not rattle, buzz, or vibrate when in use. Most of the time, I have built all my enclosures using the old JBL methods, with tons of glued and screwed bracing, cleats, and other such things. So far, I've never heard a peep from any of my boxes, and none of them have a "tone" when you rap them hard with your closed fist, either. Usually, I try to make sure there are nothing over 12 square inches of unsupported/braced space, inside the enclosures, and so far, that's worked well for me. I've never worked with MDF before, but am open to it, if it's a solid improvement over HDPB (high density particle board). I have worked with Baltic Birch before, and have found it a delight. So, maybe I will try you thoughts on a combo enclosure. Sounds like the best of both worlds, in truth.

In any case, thanks for all your suggestions, and I think the variable tuning setup sounds very interesting!! I once built a small box for a friend of mine, who is a fine bass player. He wanted it for quick little gigs, where something light and easy would work out OK. I actually showed him the difference that various tunings would offer, by tuning it from the outside, before final inside the enclosure tuning. He was shocked at the differences with the Guass speaker he was using! At first he wanted the deepest bass he could get out of that small box. But, in the end, he chose a tuning which offered a little less bass, but TONS more punch!! His woofer liked that tuning, too, and excursion during use was minimal. Fun!! After he had a chance to use that little box for a bit, he received tons of compliments from other musicians who liked it's sound. He was a happy camper, and so was I!

Take care, my Friend, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc (who knows that the journey to knowledge is really never-ending, and that is the best reward of all!!)