PDA

View Full Version : Dumb thought: Anyone ever compared an L7 and an L300 side-by-side?



BMWCCA
09-15-2008, 10:16 PM
I know; it's a dumb question undeserving of an answer from this erudite forum. Though I've made my intention clear to buy an L300 pair or a 43xx equivalent or better as a house-warming present to myself whenever I build my family the new house I've been promising for a little over a decade. Doesn't seem to be any real hurry since they all seem to be leaving home if I wait long enough. ;)

But in listening to a new purchase tonight:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51BXey1nHbL._SL500_AA240_.jpg
I just have to ask. Has anyone compared the lowly L7 to an L300 Summit side-by-side using the same system to compare the sound? What I'm saying is that the L7 continues to floor me, but I've lusted in my heart for an L300 since they first came out. I've just got to know how they compare. Double-bass and cello sound superb on the L7s. how much better should I expect the L300 to make the music sound?

Oh yeah, and by-the-way the CD is great. I saw Rushad Eggleston play cello with Darol Anger once and I was hooked.

Doc Mark
09-15-2008, 10:45 PM
Hey, BMWCCA,

Just time for a few thoughts before bed. I just finished sitting on the couch, in the dark, listening to a couple of my most favorite tunes from the Boz Scaggs CD, "Dig". "I Just Go", which has an old band mate of mine, Nathan East, on bass; "Desire", with its great, very low, synth bass; "Vanishing Point", which has a catchy little rhythm line that I can't get out of my head; and, "Thanks To You", again with some neat low bass, and a laid back beat that just sucks you in. I purposely kept the volume down low, as it's late here, and in the mountains, sound travels easily up and down the canyons and draws. Don't want to annoy anyone who is trying to sleep!!

My main point is to tell you how very good the L300's sounded, even at low volume! The bass was all there, and all the detail was crisp and very well defined, on every song. I've never heard L7's, and so cannot comment on how they sound. But, I am flat-out ASTOUNDED that the L300's can sound as rich and wonderful as they do!!! They sound this way at low volume, or cranked up. Same wonderful, open, clear, and rich sound. I would describe it as "effortless", I guess. If we lived closer together, I'd suggest planning a get together, so we could enjoy listening to both systems. I'm certain that the L7's are great speakers, of you would not like them, I'm sure. But, I cannot speak highly enough about the L300's!! Yes, yes, I know that they have some "warts". But, in point of fact, when I listen to them, I don't hear a single one of them! They are, simply put, fantastic, as far as I'm concerned!! For what it's worth...... Past time for bed, so I'm off. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

BMWCCA
09-16-2008, 05:18 AM
Thanks Doc. It's partially your thread on your experiences with your new L300s that has me asking the question. We know the Summits are iconic JBLs (no pun intended; well, maybe) and I've followed your enthusiasm as well as others decrying some warts. We've had the warts and placement issues with L7s well-documented here, too. I've always owned 15" JBLs, albeit they are the quick and light D130's in two-way systems, but there is something about those fifteen-inchers that bring me right into the music. And yet it's the incredible imaging of the big black towers that continues to astound me and their ability to blend four drivers into a seamless soundstage no matter where they or I stand. I've always assumed the bottom-end performance of the L300 and their ilk would blow the L7 away but then I grew up with 030 systems so what do I know about low bass anyway? ;) The L7 seems to cover that segment pretty well, to my jaded ears.

So, is there anyone who's actually had the opportunity to audition the L300 and the L7 in the same room, with the same system, at the same time?

So, do I have to drag those big towers to Heather's house to compare? Even that wouldn't be fair since she's hot-rodded hers and isn't running internal crossovers with one amp. And, in fairness to the L7s, I have enough amps to bi-amp them but haven't felt the need.

I said it was a dumb question and I'm not asking to upset the conventional wisdom on this site or to obtain consensual validation for what I own over what I covet. I'd just like to know. I'm already pretty sure the L300 can't be ten times the system the L7 is based on current selling prices, and that's not the issue, either. What price we pay for incremental improvements that please our ears and make us smile isn't up for question or we'd all be listening to L26s . . . which should be showing up today, as a matter of fact.

I'm patient. Certainly some one among you must have had this experience or opportunity. Possibly that person is a one-time JBL associate. Was there ever a standard base-line system against which JBL new-product development teams compared their new creations? Ears over instruments?

hjames
09-16-2008, 05:34 AM
Well, my short horn L200s do have updated crossovers (g's 3133 equivs) but are running in standard amp (not biamp) mode upstairs. They aren't L-300s but they are close ...

The 4341s are the biamp units, but I can externally put them back into "standard" mode for single amp input ... or with a strong back we could haul them upstairs for further testing ...

Our upstairs/library room is a great room to listen to speakers!

maybe we need to have an audio test day some saturday ???

Even invite Opimax ...!






So, do I have to drag those big towers to Heather's house to compare? Even that wouldn't be fair since she's hot-rodded hers and isn't running internal crossovers with one amp. And, in fairness to the L7s, I have enough amps to bi-amp them but haven't felt the need.

I said it was a dumb question and I'm not asking to upset the conventional wisdom on this site or to obtain consensual validation for what I own over what I covet. I'd just like to know. I'm already pretty sure the L300 can't be ten times the system the L7 is based on current selling prices, and that's not the issue, either. What price we pay for incremental improvements that please our ears and make us smile isn't up for question or we'd all be listening to L26s . . . which should be showing up today, as a matter of fact.

I'm patient. Certainly some one among you must have had this experience or opportunity. Possibly that person is a one-time JBL associate. Was there ever a standard base-line system against which JBL new-product development teams compared their new creations? Ears over instruments?

BMWCCA
09-16-2008, 06:38 AM
And I could bring along a pair of Crown PS-400s so we can provide the same power to both and keep the sound levels equal. Or maybe just a speaker switching network and use the amp you're using now, if we can control the levels somehow. Sound level is a critical issue when using ears to evaluate two systems; louder will always sound "better". Might be fun!

hjames
09-16-2008, 06:51 AM
And I could bring along a pair of Crown PS-400s so we can provide the same power to both and keep the sound levels equal. Or maybe just a speaker switching network and use the amp you're using now, if we can control the levels somehow. Sound level is a critical issue when using ears to evaluate two systems; louder will always sound "better". Might be fun!

Well, the upstairs system is running on a vintage Yamaha CR-1020 (http://www.thevintageknob.org/YAMAHA/CR1020/CR1020.html#) - roughly speced at 80w/ch but a genuinely nice sounding receiver.

Probably best to run the Crowns :applaud:

Fred Sanford
09-16-2008, 07:13 AM
I'm closer to you than Heather, and have the 4333As. Currently bi-amped, but switchable to internal x-over. I've even got them on a 4-channel Adcom, so they can be run off two and the L7s off of the two other channels. Actually, I've got an identical Adcom as a spare, plus some high quality line level switchers, so comparing would be easy.

Downsides of mine would be that my 2231s are a bit tired, and placement isn't optimal for now- they're on their sides at floor level. Tweet and lens properly rotated, but it's a compromise. Not exactly the stand-up kicked-back baffle of the L300s. Oh, yeah, and it's still a too-live room, that's actually my biggest complaint.

Room for L7s just outside the 4333As, easy, though.

Bring bagels. :bouncy:

je

BMWCCA
09-16-2008, 07:40 AM
Ahh, the possibilities. Still hoping someone has had the opportunity to do this before. But then we can always do it ourselves. Without moving your system, the L7s would need the outboard position, out from the wall to the point of blocking the lateral throw of the 4333As just to clear the mass of the monitors and the TV for the side-firing woofer. Tough to figure out a configuration that wouldn't cause some barrier issues with one or both. I suppose both out from the wall with front baffles parallel but with the L7 on the inside is about as close as we could get and even that would upset your whole room. We'll think on it.

I can see the methodology: Blind tests at baseline. Blind test after two beers. Blind test after four beers and several Bodo's bagels. Maybe Heather could bring some of DC's finest bagels and we could kill two product evaluations with one sensory experience. She's been to Bodo's, too! ;)

Doc Mark
09-16-2008, 07:46 AM
Thanks Doc. It's partially your thread on your experiences with your new L300s that has me asking the question. We know the Summits are iconic JBLs (no pun intended; well, maybe) and I've followed your enthusiasm as well as others decrying some warts. We've had the warts and placement issues with L7s well-documented here, too. I've always owned 15" JBLs, albeit they are the quick and light D130's in two-way systems, but there is something about those fifteen-inchers that bring me right into the music. And yet it's the incredible imaging of the big black towers that continues to astound me and their ability to blend four drivers into a seamless soundstage no matter where they or I stand. I've always assumed the bottom-end performance of the L300 and their ilk would blow the L7 away but then I grew up with 030 systems so what do I know about low bass anyway? ;) The L7 seems to cover that segment pretty well, to my jaded ears.

(snip) I'm already pretty sure the L300 can't be ten times the system the L7 is based on current selling prices, and that's not the issue, either. What price we pay for incremental improvements that please our ears and make us smile isn't up for question or we'd all be listening to L26s . . . which should be showing up today, as a matter of fact.(snip)

Morning, BWMCCA,

You are right, my Friend, I AM very taken by the L300's! But, then again, I've lusted after a pair since I first heard them, back in the 1970's, so finally getting my own L300's is something in which I'm taking vast pleasure!

That having been said, just as you wrote, it's quite easy to read all the glowing comments that many here at LH offer about the 4345's, and wonder if I should try for a pair of them!!! :blink::blink: Then, just like last night, I sit down and spend some time with my L300's, and say, "Nah, I like these, just fine"!! ;):D:applaud:

I'm willing to bet that you would be impressed by having a good JBL 15 in your system. But, if you already like the L7's, as they do offer some things that the L300's don't, in the way of imaging, and in being a 4-way design, why not just add two 15's as subwoofers, biamp the lot, and call it good?

As much as I dearly love JBL systems, I'm coming to 59 years old, soon, and I now realize that time is moving along, and that space and resources do not, and very probably will never, allow me to have ALL the JBL systems I covet!! ;) So, I'm really quite happy, and more than a little satisfied, with the goodies I have on hand, right now. Plenty of components for experimentation on the "big systems", and a few extra goodies, like the L19's I got a while back (they have warts, but sound very nice, despite them...), or my old 4408's, which are in need of a JBL recone. I'd still love to get a pair of medium monitors, someday, but have come to the realization that I may well never do so.

Probably the last comment I could offer is that this is all supposed to be fun! So, having said that, why NOT make a date to compare your L7's with Heather's L200's, or Fred's 4333A's, or BOTH?? Sounds like it would be fun, no matter what you decide to do after that. And, it's the fun of it all that makes us keep coming back to the JBL table for more, even after we're "full", eh??!! ;):D

I very much look forward to hearing how all this turns out for you! Have fun, take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

SEAWOLF97
09-16-2008, 08:55 AM
Phil

My answer doesnt have too much to do with sound quality. I have heard the L7's demoed and they sounded great, tho I didnt like the burnt ash vinyl cladding or general looks. I know you are a collector and enjoy classic, beautiful items (BMW's)

Member Soundboy and I had discussions about your question ( substitute 250ti for L7) ...
.he called the L300 a "'59 Cadillac" ...big, flashy , fun to cruise around for a while, but tiring in everyday life. He has heard both and like others here, had said the L300 is 1970's technology and if that is what you want, then go for it.

Maybe the L300's are just something you have always wanted, but could'nt swing for until now ? I'm having trouble believing that they sound $2k/3k/4k better than the L7's.

Not trying to flame anyone with L300's, maybe just trying to slow the bandwagon a bit.

Doc Mark
09-16-2008, 09:16 AM
Hey, SeaWolf,

You make a very good point, and it's well taken. I have said before that I most certainly am not offended by the fact that some don't care for the L300 sound. Doesn't bother me one bit. For me, they are perfect. Yes, they are 1970's technology, but hey, "I'm" late 1940's technology, and I kind of like that!! ;):D Maybe someday, I'll "tire" of horn technology, and move on to something else, maybe even the L250Ti's. But, until the day comes that I decide the L300's, and their ilk, are no longer my cup of tea, I'll keep right on enjoying them. Others make different choices, and I say, "Outstanding! Go with what trips your trigger; whichever way your stick floats; or whatever blows up your skirt"!! That's what makes all this so very enjoyable!! Thanks, for your thoughts, and I agree, 100%. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

hjames
09-16-2008, 09:29 AM
Only problem with L-300s is they are hard for bottom feeders to get them!
I kinda cobbled my L-200-plus clones together by scrounging over time, but certainly wouldn't have bought L300s if it meant dropping $3000-4000 for them at the time ... (but thats just me!)

But $500-1000 speakers?? Sure! Much easier to justify ...

Of course its really hard to find more modern affordable JBLs outside the plastic wood cabinets ... black ash or faux cherry!


Phil

My answer doesnt have too much to do with sound quality. I have heard the L7's demoed and they sounded great, tho I didnt like the burnt ash vinyl cladding or general looks. I know you are a collector and enjoy classic, beautiful items (BMW's)

Member Soundboy and I had discussions about your question ( substitute 250ti for L7) ...
.he called the L300 a "'59 Cadillac" ...big, flashy , fun to cruise around for a while, but tiring in everyday life. He has heard both and like others here, had said the L300 is 1970's technology and if that is what you want, then go for it.

Maybe the L300's are just something you have always wanted, but could'nt swing for until now ? I'm having trouble believing that they sound $2k/3k/4k better than the L7's.

Not trying to flame anyone with L300's, maybe just trying to slow the bandwagon a bit.

BMWCCA
09-16-2008, 10:19 AM
Member Soundboy and I had discussions about your question ( substitute 250ti for L7) ...Yeah, I suppose if I had a good pair of JBLs with that fine 14", I'd not be bothering asking such questions myself. So now we need to find an L250 or 250ti pair in the area. to compare the L7 with, too. Opimax? Got 'em ready yet?

Whatever black membrane JBL coated the L's with doesn't bother me. There's probably as much real wood in there as in my fifty-year-old C37s!


NP: Jennifer Warnes - Famouse Blue Raincoat - 20th Anniv editionOne of my favorites. I have the original. Is the 20th Anniversary edition a real improvement? The old one's actually in the changer in the BMW even as we speak. "First we take Manhattan . . . " Oh heck, I see they've added four tracks! What's your review. (Way to take my own post thread off-topic!)

SEAWOLF97
09-16-2008, 11:14 AM
Yeah, I suppose if I had a good pair of JBLs with that fine 14", I'd not be bothering asking such questions myself. So now we need to find an L250 or 250ti pair in the area. to compare the L7 with, too. Opimax? Got 'em ready yet?


Actually I'm not trying to promote the L250/250ti's to you. They are an acquired taste, I think, and the styling isnt for everybody. Yes, I like mine. TD has pointed out also why they arent for him.

14's or not, they are still being augmented with a sub.

Are they better than my big Walsh's ? yes , maybe 15-20%, is that enough to justify $2k ? not sure. I talked with Marty (JBLCanuk) who had both 4343's and the 250ti's side by side and he said (plse correct me if I'm wrong, Marty) that "sometimes the 250's can sound better" and "sometimes the 4343's horns can be a little too much in a home environment"

I'm seeing L300's go for insane prices lately..if you find a deal , Phil , and have the disposable cash...go for it....if you buy well, you can get your money back even if they dont work out for you. :bouncy:

Chas
09-16-2008, 11:44 AM
I find it ironic sometimes, when I think about possibly upgrading speakers someday, I realise that about 75% of the music I listen to was recorded on monitors that well predate my 4345's!

It kinda puts things into a different perpective.

demon
09-16-2008, 11:46 AM
I'm seeing L300's go for insane prices lately..if you find a deal , Phil , and have the disposable cash...go for it....if you buy well, you can get your money back even if they dont work out for you.not to forget they are still the single most handsome speakers of the universe.
(but thats offtopic)
i dearly hope that some of you guys can get together and have a little shootout between those speakers mentionend.
would enjoy to read about it!!

cheers,
mikey

Titanium Dome
09-16-2008, 11:47 AM
I've heard both but not in the same room, so I can't meet the comment criteria requested. A side-by-side would be interesting and fun, but perhaps not as enlightening as hoped for. The kind of room that favors the L7 is different than the one that favors the L300.

The key would be to answer the question, "What room will you put them in?" and then choose the speaker that best fits the room. (Imagine that? :p )

The L7 does in fact have real ash veneer on it, not vinyl.

Those interested in a subjective comparison of the four-way L250, XPL200, L7 and PT800/PS1400 stacks can go here

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=7498&page=5

and look at posts 66–70.

Since I prefer four-ways to three-ways and direct radiators to horns and metal domes to paper or plastic cones, my opinions must be read in that light.

I'm not a fan of the two-way and three-way horn systems generally, though I've got 4430, S/2600, and SVA models. But I recognize that many love the L300, as does Doc, and I completely support his devotion to his new babies. :yes:

Fred Sanford
09-16-2008, 12:28 PM
Ahh, the possibilities. Still hoping someone has had the opportunity to do this before. But then we can always do it ourselves. Without moving your system, the L7s would need the outboard position, out from the wall to the point of blocking the lateral throw of the 4333As just to clear the mass of the monitors and the TV for the side-firing woofer. Tough to figure out a configuration that wouldn't cause some barrier issues with one or both. I suppose both out from the wall with front baffles parallel but with the L7 on the inside is about as close as we could get and even that would upset your whole room. We'll think on it.

I can see the methodology: Blind tests at baseline. Blind test after two beers. Blind test after four beers and several Bodo's bagels. Maybe Heather could bring some of DC's finest bagels and we could kill two product evaluations with one sensory experience. She's been to Bodo's, too! ;)

Well, the Bodo's owner has some Dahlquists I want to hear, too, we can invite him and make a weekend of it.

je, enjoying Leinenkugel's very pleasant Summer Shandy lately.

http://www.leinie.com/av.html

Regis
09-16-2008, 12:46 PM
I'm in the same boat as Sir Ti Dome and feel much the same way. The L-300 is a great speaker. They are like big brutes with tuxedo's. Handsome and clean, but with a presence in any setting. You can't help but notice the stylish cabs and angled grills. In fact, they were my inspiration to getting the 4315's on floating speaker stands at the exact same angle (the stands are getting stained this weekend, pics soon!).

For now, I am in the four-way direct radiator camp and make that a five-way, as I had to add a pair of subs (you'd think that a 4315, weighing 95 pounds, with a woofer that basically is a 12" cone, with a 15" motor would have killer bass? :cool: Nooooo. The XPL-200 kills the 4315 for bass! Even my original L-65's beat up the 4315's. Looking at the cabs, one can't help but notice that the port is just big enough to hold an empty cardboard TP tube, unlike the huge ports on other JBL cabs..., but the 40hz bass is fast and accurate, so that's a good thing. Just have to supplement it...)

BMWCCA
09-16-2008, 01:08 PM
Well, the Bodo's owner has some Dahlquists I want to hear, too, we can invite him and make a weekend of it. Where you live, my prediction is we can get the level up high enough to fry the Dahlquists! Not that that would be the goal. Though I don't remember any Dahlquists I'd want to be schlepping around in a station wagon. Dahlquist phased-array DQ-10 is about all I remember. Plenty of bent metal possibilities.

Matching amps and speaker wiring at ten-feet. :duel:

opimax
09-16-2008, 01:25 PM
hi,

I am happy to have people listen to my "stuff" I have 250Tis hooked up, bi amped, CC XO in my main room as part of a 7.2 system w/4 120ti , b460 and velo sub. I purchased a pair of 250 this weekend that are a little rough which I haven't hooked up yet near the main room. I have a pair of Dahlquist dq-28 in the bedroom w/a Velo sub. upstairs are the Dahlquist DQ-10 w/a b460 clone by DBX. My brother has a a 5.1 L7/L5 set up I put together in NC.

Price consideration the L7/L5 was by far the best deal but if price isn't the consideration it becomes personal choice IMHO.

Please let me know details of where and when and I will bring/host as able :bouncy::bouncy::bouncy:

Mark

4313B
09-16-2008, 01:43 PM
you'd think that a 4315, weighing 95 pounds, with a woofer that basically is a 12" cone, with a 15" motor would have killer bassIt did in the Studio environment. It was designed to maintain the same bandwidth as the larger monitors at the expense of efficiency and it did just that. Really nice monitor for smaller studios of that era.

In the home it needed boundary reinforcement. The 4315 port was too small. The 4-inch port in the EN3 box worked much better.

hjames
09-16-2008, 02:02 PM
Got to be BMWCCA's Haus!!
- I hear he has a Bimmer track out back for hill climbs (grin) -
or is that the dirt track across the street ... I get that confused!


hi,

Please let me know details of where and when and I will bring/host as able :bouncy::bouncy::bouncy:

Mark

opimax
09-16-2008, 02:49 PM
now what does that have to do w/speakers much less JBL branded speakers...off topic...someone ban her!!!:D:D:D

Mark

for those that don't know, I am just teasing her

hjames
09-16-2008, 03:06 PM
now what does that have to do w/speakers much less JBL branded speakers...off topic...someone ban her!!!:D:D:D

Mark

for those that don't know, I am just teasing her

yeah, my back is all aquatic - no room for cars or bikes back there ...

waiting for strangers, the fish, they lurk,
someone comes by they POUNCE up from the murk ...

(all that orange, they must be JBL fish!)

Regis
09-16-2008, 03:25 PM
It did in the Studio environment. It was designed to maintain the same bandwidth as the larger monitors at the expense of efficiency and it did just that. Really nice monitor for smaller studios of that era.

In the home it needed boundary reinforcement. The 4315 port was too small. The 4-inch port in the EN3 box worked much better.

Very interesting. The specs on the EN3 box is 85 litres, the 4315 is 91. The dimensions for the LN3 (similiar?) is 34x20x12. The 4315 is one inch shorter at 33"

Qoute:

"Lancer
11-18-2005, 07:14 PM
Those kind of look like old JBL EN3 enclosures...

Standard complement was:
124A / 124H / 2203A / 2203H
LE5-2 / LE5H / 2105 / 2105H
077 / 2405 / 2405H
LX30...."

The 4315 uses just about the same components (except the midbass). With the 4315 cabinet close to the same size as the LN3, would modifying the port to the 4" configuration increase the tuning of the bottom end? And how long does the tube have to be?

BMWCCA
09-16-2008, 04:00 PM
Got to be BMWCCA's Haus!!
- I hear he has a Bimmer track out back for hill climbs (grin) -
or is that the dirt track across the street ... I get that confused!You must be confusing my house with my company office in South Carolina! :D

We'll have to ratchet this idea down for a bit; I'm leaving town next week. But I like the idea. Closer to NOVA would work better for two of you. So far we've offers from Opi and Fred to host. To answer the original question would work best at Fred's. The "winner" can take on the 250ti next. I'm thinking the L7s are a lot easier to toss in a car than the larger monitors. At least I can carry them one at a time.

Fred Sanford
09-16-2008, 04:52 PM
You must be confusing my house with my company office in South Carolina! :D

We'll have to ratchet this idea down for a bit; I'm leaving town next week. But I like the idea. Closer to NOVA would work better for two of you. So far we've offers from Opi and Fred to host. To answer the original question would work best at Fred's. The "winner" can take on the 250ti next. I'm thinking the L7s are a lot easier to toss in a car than the larger monitors. At least I can carry them one at a time.

Yeah, I have to take down the LR rig at some point soon, but I'm sort of avoiding it (new input terminals, re-locate active x-over and AC3 converter, run surround speakers cables, :blah:). "Tossing" the 4333As anywhere is a bitch, much better with at least the woofs out. It'd be easy enough to do some comparing as is- don't you also have some smaller representatives from that series?

There are also HP420s, L46s, L100s, and L110s here just to make it worth a beer & bagels trip.

There's a slim chance I'll be in the DC area this weekend, too, with a boatload of amps & Nak gear in the van. Not sure yet.

je

hjames
09-16-2008, 06:49 PM
Well, I'll be home Sat ... have to work from my desk briefly on Sunday, but Emma is await preaching ... at the Hburg UU church! So ... if Fred is in DC this weekend anyway ... if we don't go too late, we could arrange multispeakers in the living room (with all the plants). Hard wood floors - the L200-plus (quasi L-300) speakers are on wheels and easy to move around - but honestly, its Phil's idea so isn't it kinda pointless without him and his L7s??

Maybe its best if we wait a few weeks - ?




Yeah, I have to take down the LR rig at some point soon, but I'm sort of avoiding it (new input terminals, re-locate active x-over and AC3 converter, run surround speakers cables, :blah:). "Tossing" the 4333As anywhere is a bitch, much better with at least the woofs out. It'd be easy enough to do some comparing as is- don't you also have some smaller representatives from that series?

There are also HP420s, L46s, L100s, and L110s here just to make it worth a beer & bagels trip.

There's a slim chance I'll be in the DC area this weekend, too, with a boatload of amps & Nak gear in the van. Not sure yet.

je

opimax
09-16-2008, 07:12 PM
any chance to get together should be taken advantage of!!(IMHO) I am available all day SAT or Sunday till 4, going to see Starship in annapolis Sun night.
I can carry the DQs 28 or 10s and even a spare set of 120ti but no 250s or the b460 :)

Mark
on a side note I started thread in DYI , looking for opinions

BMWCCA
09-16-2008, 09:02 PM
Setting up sound for the Eli Cook Band (http://elicook.com/) and one other on Saturday (He opened for B.B. King here recently). Then leaving for a week on Monday. Sorry. Plenty of time coming up though.

Fred Sanford
09-17-2008, 04:07 AM
The DC trip is going to be decided on the fly, and would be in order to hook up with some AK members for an informal meet & greet on Saturday. Chances are I'll bring some toys for show & tell and some potential sales.

Piling on that, I might be meeting a friend in Alexandria to swap some Nak gear for a guitar.

All in all, a very loose plan, and still no better than a maybe at this point. I've got Heather's phone #, and will be in touch if I'm DC-bound, but don't count on me to schedule anything at this point.

I'm up for a H'burg or C'Ville meet just about any time, with some notice.

je

Fred Sanford
09-17-2008, 04:10 AM
Well, I'll be home Sat ... have to work from my desk briefly on Sunday, but Emma is await preaching ... at the Hburg UU church! So ... if Fred is in DC this weekend anyway ... if we don't go too late, we could arrange multispeakers in the living room (with all the plants). Hard wood floors - the L200-plus (quasi L-300) speakers are on wheels and easy to move around - but honestly, its Phil's idea so isn't it kinda pointless without him and his L7s??

Maybe its best if we wait a few weeks - ?

Please tell Emma she's welcome to drop by if she'd like, or give us details on her H'burg appearance & maybe we can go see her.

je

SEAWOLF97
09-17-2008, 04:23 PM
Hey Phil , why dont you look into a 240ti ?


I did buy a pair of 240Ti's to replace them though. The 100t's were just too big of a jump backwards. The beauty of the 240 is they can be substituted for the 100T's without anyone noticing:D
These are way under rated. Close in sound to a 250Ti at 1/3 the price & not quite so pretty :)

macaroonie
09-17-2008, 04:38 PM
:yes::yes::yes::yes::yes: Oft forgotten. A good point well made

BMWCCA
09-17-2008, 04:39 PM
Hey Phil , why dont you look into a 240ti ?I've always said that was one speaker I thought should be a keeper but I've never heard one. Contacted someone selling a pair for a handsome sum recently one-state away, with no photos, but no reply. Also spoke with a friend in the Florida keys (Hi!) recently who had three pairs and was thinking about selling. Haven't gotten a follow-up on those.

We're thinking along the same lines though. One of us is quicker, more motivated, closer to the source, and with money burning a hole in his pocket from recent sales! ;)

SEAWOLF97
09-18-2008, 05:37 AM
Hey Phil , why dont you look into a 240ti ?


I've always said that was one speaker I thought should be a keeper but I've never heard one. Contacted someone selling a pair for a handsome sum recently one-state away, with no photos, but no reply. Also spoke with a friend in the Florida keys (Hi!) recently who had three pairs and was thinking about selling. Haven't gotten a follow-up on those.

We're thinking along the same lines though. One of us is quicker, more motivated, closer to the source, and with money burning a hole in his pocket from recent sales! ;)

I guess shud have looked b4 recommendation..:(..if you have to pay this much..

http://cgi.ebay.com/JBL-240ti-LOUDSPEAKERS_W0QQitemZ280263811279QQihZ018QQcatego ryZ3276QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

then mite as well go "all the way" on the bigger speakers..

BMWCCA
09-18-2008, 07:27 AM
I guess shud have looked b4 recommendation..:(..if you have to pay this much..

http://cgi.ebay.com/JBL-240ti-LOUDSPEAKERS_W0QQitemZ280263811279QQihZ018QQcatego ryZ3276QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

then mite as well go "all the way" on the bigger speakers..Notice they didn't get a bid. I've talked to a seller about a pair closer to me but he thinks at something North of $1500 that he's selling them way below market. I wouldn't consider them a good deal at close to $1000. In the end, this stuff all boils down to justification based on component value, or emotions.

BMWCCA
10-13-2008, 05:33 PM
The recent thread hoping to compare the L220 with the 250ti got me thinking we'd better move on this L7 versus L300/4333A before the snow closes off Fred's driveway for the season. This weekend I'll be in New York. Every weekend from now until the first of December I have only Sundays open, or the weekend of Thanksgiving, though that may have some daughter-shuttling duties yet unscheduled. Any of those days look like something you two, Heather and Fred, would like to work toward? Still want to go through with this?

I've been giving some thought to how we share the source signal. I have an older Sony CD player I use as my main source. It has both a fixed and a variable (front panel output driven by motor from the remote) output pair which could be used to balance the systems but not to switch between them. I can supply two Crown PS-400 amps but I can't supply matching pre-amps to run two identical systems. I could bring a Soundcraftsmen DX4200 and a ProControl Four. Both are very clean but they're not identical. I'm working on a Soundcraftsmen ProPower Four amp which has dual speaker outputs but no level controls. I do have this silly SAE speaker switching system which supposedly handles 350 watts and controls up to three pairs, but I've not tried it out, and it leaves no way to balance the level betwen the pairs.

Fred, do you have any suggestion for how we give both speaker pairs a level playing field without dismantling your set-up? Do you have a better CD source or should we have Heather schlep the Oppo along? What negative effect do we introduce if we simply split the output from the pre-amp to two power amps? Would it work with the two amps as long as we had the gain up? I have two pre-amps I can bring, just not identical units.

Is interest still in favor of giving this a try? Is Fred still interested in donating the space if I bring bagels? ;)

Fred Sanford
10-13-2008, 06:30 PM
The recent thread hoping to compare the L220 with the 250ti got me thinking we'd better move on this L7 versus L300/4333A before the snow closes off Fred's driveway for the season.

Is interest still in favor of giving this a try? Is Fred still interested in donating the space if I bring bagels? ;)

OK, there's a bunch of things to answer here, I'll type 'til I'm tired then I'll decide that this would be easier to accomplish in a simple phone call.

1] Snow doesn't really close us off, ice storms do. Heather's CR-V shouldn't be any issue, dunno if you've got any xi's on the road these days.

2] I have two Adcom 2535s. They're possibly perfect for this purpose for a couple reasons- they're each 4 power amps in one chassis, 60WPC each. There are gain controls for each pair of amps, so you can balance for spl output between pairs. Downside is that one of these is currently bi-amping my 4333As, which I think you want to compare to the L7s without the active x-over in play. Not tough to re-wire, really. How power-hungry are the L7s?

I also have four Yamaha P2100s, they're ~95WPC and have gain controls on the fronts. Nice amps, easy to rack up two of them & cart them up to the living room. I could even use all four bridged for more power, but that would take some dismantling & a big rack to hold all four at once.

I also have three multi-zone power amps that can buss inputs across multiple outputs.

I also have a DC300 if you've got a sister for it.

I also have a 6260, I think Heather's got a sister for that.

I don't think power amps will be an issue :bouncy:.

3] My current setup in the LR is a Pioneer DVL-91 Elite (LD/DVD/CD) into a nice-sounding Marantz DAC with a level controlled output (can run with sub & x-over, or not) and a fixed-level output. Easy enough to control & balance the two outputs, one from the DAC and one from the amp. Any digital source can be added & switched in if the Pioneer Elite doesn't tickle your fancy. There are also three ReQuest music servers with CD drawers, two DATs, some Denon CDs with digital out, an Alesis Masterlink, a Sony ES CD player, and maybe 6 other Pioneer players. No TTs and no SACD at this point, sorry.

I have an Zektor HDS4.2 as well, that can do analog & digital switching easily & quietly.

http://www.zektor.com/hds42/index.html

http://www.zektor.com/hds42/images/HDS42S_back_1000.jpg

4] Sundays might be good, there's also a Thursday and Friday coming up where my wife's out of town and I'm not booked up, so if weekdays work that might be an option. Thanksgiving's no good.

Call me! :p

je

hjames
10-13-2008, 06:56 PM
Fred sounds like Tgiving is out - I'm tied the weekend of Oct 25-26, and I'm offline on Thanksgiving day -
but elsewhere in the weekend could work out ... The 4341s are just too big to haul, but we could prolly load the L200 -3-way pair ...



The recent thread hoping to compare the L220 with the 250ti got me thinking we'd better move on this L7 versus L300/4333A before the snow closes off Fred's driveway for the season. This weekend I'll be in New York. Every weekend from now until the first of December I have only Sundays open, or the weekend of Thanksgiving, though that may have some daughter-shuttling duties yet unscheduled. Any of those days look like something you two, Heather and Fred, would like to work toward? Still want to go through with this?

I've been giving some thought to how we share the source signal. I have an older Sony CD player I use as my main source. It has both a fixed and a variable (front panel output driven by motor from the remote) output pair which could be used to balance the systems but not to switch between them. I can supply two Crown PS-400 amps but I can't supply matching pre-amps to run two identical systems. I could bring a Soundcraftsmen DX4200 and a ProControl Four. Both are very clean but they're not identical. I'm working on a Soundcraftsmen ProPower Four amp which has dual speaker outputs but no level controls. I do have this silly SAE speaker switching system which supposedly handles 350 watts and controls up to three pairs, but I've not tried it out, and it leaves no way to balance the level betwen the pairs.

Fred, do you have any suggestion for how we give both speaker pairs a level playing field without dismantling your set-up? Do you have a better CD source or should we have Heather schlep the Oppo along? What negative effect do we introduce if we simply split the output from the pre-amp to two power amps? Would it work with the two amps as long as we had the gain up? I have two pre-amps I can bring, just not identical units.

Is interest still in favor of giving this a try? Is Fred still interested in donating the space if I bring bagels? ;)

Titanium Dome
10-13-2008, 07:46 PM
No surprise I'm sure, but the L7 is a different speaker with 200W+, and that's what I'd aim for to realize its potential. It'll play loud with less, but it'll play better with more.

opimax
10-13-2008, 08:15 PM
the DQ-10s are some of the most inefficiant speakers I have hooked up. I blew the internal fuses when using a smaller amp and have not blown them when using a higher powered amp. I have all wheel drive too but no ice in the mountains please :) . I also could bring 120TIs if there is interest or dq-28s, everything is else is small, l20, l20t3...and of course some Radio Shack Minimus 7s :)

I have a pair of very rough L250 w/TI drivers in them I would bring I could get help carrying them. Might have the TI XOvers in them by the time we meet. They would need dry weather, they won't fit inside my Baja

Mark

BMWCCA
10-13-2008, 10:22 PM
No surprise I'm sure, but the L7 is a different speaker with 200W+, and that's what I'd aim for to realize its potential. It'll play loud with less, but it'll play better with more.Dome: The Crown PS-400 should be around 250 wpc at 6-ohms. Have you ever tried the L7 bi-wired in any of the configurations in the owners manual? And why couldn't you use two identical amps with one's L/R output feeding the lows on each L7 and the other amp's L/R output feeding the highs? JBL's diagrams call for one stereo amp for each speaker. Seems odd and confusing for the input attenuators to not be left and right in a rack.

JE's 4333A's should certainly adequately play the role of the legendary L300. No need for Heather to go to the effort of hauling the L200+ around. That was the advertising claim for the L300 at the time anyway: "The L300 is the home entertainment version of the 4333 Studio Monitor. . . No need for everyone to haul their stuff around unless there are other comparos desired! The L7s are a bit under 75-lbs. each and they are slim enough to "hug" so one person can carry them if need be (for when my wife just says, "You're crazy" and walks away). They won't fit in my trunk like the L5s so I'll have to resurrect the van one more time. As far as I'm concerned the more the merrier, but it's "Fred's" house.

JE, I will call, but to answer first: The L7s don't appear to be that hungry but I've never run them with anything less than a DC300A-II or PS-400 :). It's easy for me to bring a couple of Crowns along and everything to hook them up for the L7s. Then we'll have two systems for sure and we can play with any configuration we think is equitable. We can play each pair the way we both listen to them (your Adcoms and my Crowns) and then, if we feel the need, give them a level playing field. I might try bi-wiring the L7 with two amps to see if it makes any difference. We don't need to make this any more invasive of your hospitality than it already is! A single source should be a good start.

I realize I'm also tied-up the weekend of Oct. 24-26, and I'm not sure how a Thursday works for Heather or Opi. I'll toss out two Sundays, 11/2 or 11/9, and see what others say.

Happy to take this off list until we have results to share.

Titanium Dome
10-15-2008, 09:37 PM
Dome: The Crown PS-400 should be around 250 wpc at 6-ohms. Have you ever tried the L7 bi-wired in any of the configurations in the owners manual? And why couldn't you use two identical amps with one's L/R output feeding the lows on each L7 and the other amp's L/R output feeding the highs? JBL's diagrams call for one stereo amp for each speaker. Seems odd and confusing for the input attenuators to not be left and right in a rack.


My L7s in the downtown office are running off a pair of MTX/Soundcraftsmen A400 amps and a DX4200 pre-amp/EQ. I've got one amp running LF and HF for the left channel and one amp for the right. I can use the DX4200 to control each channel via the Unity Gain Control and make any minor adjustments for each channel's output via the L and R ten band EQ.

Your idea of going LF on one amp and HF on the other would also work in this scenario, but in a different way. The EQ bands would allow you to attenuate all the LF going to the HF amp, and attenuate all the HF going to the LF amp.

:hmm: Might have to try that.

BMWCCA
10-15-2008, 09:58 PM
Are you splitting the pre-output with a Y-connector, or using the inverted output from the DX4200?

Then I'll ask the next question which is why would it make any difference if you ran the L-channel pre-output to amp #1 L-channel and to amp #2 L-channel and then each to the L-speaker HF and LF. Then did the same to the R-channel pre-out. Instead of one stereo amp for each speaker, you'd just be using the left channel of two amps for the left speaker and vice-versa. Wouldn't change what you're doing on the pre-amp-EQ, or am I too tired and should go to bed? :(

BMWCCA
10-29-2008, 07:46 AM
Only a few more days and the burning question of our time will be answered.
No, I don't mean who will be our next President! :)
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:h3I13S4Wz0JS-M:http://www.kissmygumbo.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/vote.jpg

This weekend we'll get a chance to answer this thread's original question: How much better will an L300 make the music sound compared to an L7?

In promoting the L300, JBL proclaimed: "The L300 is the home entertainment equivalent of the 4333 Studio Monitor — one of the most successful designs JBL has produced for the recording industry." So . . .

The home team will be fielding the 129-pound iconic 4333A system built on the massive 2231 15" LF driver with 13-pound magnet assembly in a three-way system with two compression drivers including the venerable 2405 UHF slot, combined in a 5.5-cubic-ft. enclosure with a 94dB sensitivity rating.

The visiting team will field the 70-pound upstart L7 system with the much-heralded LE120H-1 12" LF driver (purported to be sporting a 4-inch voice coil and rather massive magnet itself but for which actual specs have proven elusive) in a four-way system with the 035TiA titanium UHF in a cabinet of under 4-cubic-ft. with a 91dB sensitivity rating.

Plans are to attempt to compare both systems at a secret rural mid-Atlantic location using the same source and amplification system for each in an A-B comparison, as best we are able, and to then run them both the way their owners power them. Room-placement issues may never get answered but we'll do the best we can. An eminent guest panel will include the system owners as well as a handful of semi-local golden-eared members of this list and perhaps a spousal unit or two. Impartiality will be assured through a judicial application of a variety of barley therapies and various other forms of self-medication.

Results will be posted here, if we ever make it back home. :D

http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/specs/pro-speakers/1977-4331-4333/thumbs/page1_small1.jpg versus http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/specs/home-speakers/1992-l-series/thumbs/page01_small.jpg

Doc Mark
10-29-2008, 07:59 AM
Hey, BMWCCA,

I LOVE it!!! Of course, I'm rooting for the 4333!! If I hadn't already used up to those blanket-sized stamps, back when I was trying to send our L300's to Pete, I'd gladly send them to you, for an additional twist on this test! Our's have 2235H's in place of the original woofers from that system. I'm looking forward to hearing the results of your competition, but mostly I'm just glad you are going to be getting together with some LH members, and having some JBL fun!! Well done, my Friend!!:applaud::applaud: Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

pmakres1
10-29-2008, 08:10 AM
If I hadn't already used up to those blanket-sized stamps, back when I was trying to send our L300's to Pete, I'd gladly send them to you, for an additional twist on this test!

I'm still waiting for them...!?? :( :confused:

I can understand if you're trying a different method, of course you wouldn't want all that stamp adhesive glue on the sides of the L300's...

....when they finally arrive, I'll be doing an A-B between them and the L220A's. :bouncy:


Pete

4313B
10-29-2008, 08:29 AM
I'll be doing an A-B between them and the L220A's. :bouncy:Off-topic but if you like building boxes you can do like we did back in the late 70's and early 80's...

Note the LX300 crossover network in the list, which is the same network used in the 4333 and L300. ;)

http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/catalogs/1979-comp/page08.jpg

You would want to build a nice 14-inch 3-way box without the PR15C (you have a B460). You can use the 076 in place of the 077 and the L94 in place of the L91.

Some people like doing things like this.

Mr. Widget
10-29-2008, 08:39 AM
Plans are to attempt to compare both systems at a secret rural mid-Atlantic location...Will Dick Cheney be there with the Fox News team acting as impartial judges? ;)


Widget

pmakres1
10-29-2008, 08:50 AM
Off-topic but if you like building boxes you can do like we did back in the late 70's and early 80's...

Note the LX300 crossover network in the list, which is the same network used in the 4333 and L300. ;)

http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/catalogs/1979-comp/page08.jpg

You would want to build a nice 14-inch 3-way box without the PR15C (you have a B460). You can use the 076 in place of the 077 and the L94 in place of the L91.

Some people like doing things like this.

Yeah, I'd love to do something like this...unfortunately I don't have the woodworking facilities. I've done a lot of buiding for my system, the system furniture, ets, but most of this was done on the patio of my attached villa. I've since added a Florida room where the patio was. (I have a smaller system in there with 4313B's).

I've always wanted to build a JBL system...who knows maybe someday....

Pete

BMWCCA
10-29-2008, 08:59 AM
Will Dick Cheney be there with the Fox News team acting as impartial judges? ;)He was invited but will send Carl Rove and Scooter Libby instead. Fox wanted final-cut rights without approval, which we feared could focus too much on the beer drinking and not enough on the scientific aspect, and thus impact all of our abilities to run for the V.P. spot on Sarah Palin's ticket in 2012. You know, to make up for her lack of economic expertise. :duck:

4313B
10-29-2008, 09:00 AM
Will Dick Cheney be there with the Fox News team acting as impartial judges? ;)Huh? What the hell? That guy isn't in a federal prison somewhere? :blink:

SEAWOLF97
10-29-2008, 09:24 AM
focus too much on the beer drinking and not enough on the scientific aspect:duck:

Be careful ..

MythBusters recently had an "alcohol myths " show....they each computer reviewed pictures of the opposite sex (sober) and numerically rated the person pictured for attractiveness .....then repeated on an .08 BA level and then on a 1.2 BA ....

the pictured women/men got more attractive , the drunker the rater was ...

MYTH - CONFIRMED !! :applaud:

BMWCCA
10-29-2008, 10:41 AM
MYTH - CONFIRMED !! :applaud:They just wanted an excuse to drink. That theory is confirmed in nearly every bar, every night around closing time.

Mr. Widget
10-29-2008, 10:45 AM
They just wanted an excuse to drink. That theory is confirmed in nearly every bar, every night around closing time.I've proved it myself many times and I have the scars to prove it... now where is Sarah? ;)


Widget

Mr. Widget
10-29-2008, 10:47 AM
Please do let us know how the "shoot out" turns out. Also please bore us with all of the details... room size, layout, associated gear, etc.


Widget

4313B
10-29-2008, 11:02 AM
now where is Sarah? ;)I think that little maverick is busy trying to get McCain relieved of command so she can step up to the plate. While everyone else is worrying about her credientials she is realizing that she should be running for President and McCain should have the Cheney position. She hasn't clued in on the fact that the Vice Presidency of the United States is currently the most powerful position in the known universe.

Fred Sanford
10-29-2008, 12:54 PM
The Living Room is ~20' x 15' 6", shown to the lower left in the attached plan. Gear is along the center of the left wall, couch along the right (love seat along the top, cushy chair & Otto-man along the bottom). The room has a pretty pronounced ring that annoys me, we'll see how much people & drapery can help that. It's not terrible when seated, and even better if you sit on the floor, which puts you face-first into the 4333As. We've also got the possiblility of some 120Tis showing up, that would be an interesting third contender.

Downstairs, we may also be sampling L110s, L100s, L46s, HP420s, TR225s, S38s, T3s, and maybe some L5s and L1s.

Should be fun, won't really be scientific or anything. We may end up debating Hefeweizen VS. Pale Ale more than anything music-related.

I think that at some point we should put the TR225s on the front porch, and see if we can hear them from the Blue Ridge Mountains.

je

Fred Sanford
10-29-2008, 01:15 PM
Hey, BMWCCA,

I LOVE it!!! Of course, I'm rooting for the 4333!! If I hadn't already used up to those blanket-sized stamps, back when I was trying to send our L300's to Pete, I'd gladly send them to you, for an additional twist on this test! Our's have 2235H's in place of the original woofers from that system. I'm looking forward to hearing the results of your competition, but mostly I'm just glad you are going to be getting together with some LH members, and having some JBL fun!! Well done, my Friend!!:applaud::applaud: Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

The plan is to have the current 2231As re-coned as 2235s at some point- my two frames are mis-matched in age (serial #s 7038 and 24103), both spiders are sagging towards the magnet, and I'm not thrilled with the re-foam job they've got. Might want to re-gauss the mags as well, these have lived a hard life- these were from Clive Davis' office at Arista records, where they were powered by a Sansui BA-5000.

je

Fred Sanford
10-29-2008, 01:41 PM
Oh yeah, the list of potential power amps is as follows:

Crown PS-400 (multiples)
Crown DC300A
JBL/Urei 6260
Adcom 2535 (multiples)
Altec 1270
Yamaha P2100 (multiples)
Yamaha RX-V1000
Nakamichi RE-1
Denon PMA-920
Elan Z-amp
ADA Rhapsody
Audio Control Architect 1250

je

Doc Mark
10-29-2008, 04:16 PM
I'm still waiting for them...!?? :(

I can understand if you're trying a different method, of course you wouldn't want all that stamp adhesive glue on the sides of the L300's...

....when they finally arrive, I'll be doing an A-B between them and the L220A's. :bouncy:


Pete

Hey, Pete,

Sorry, they never made it to the Post Office! Remember, I dragged them down to the street, and someone took them, and left those nice-mannered Minimus 7's in their place!! That was very considerate, don't you think?! ;) But, the very next day, the L300's were BAAAAACK!! I'm guessing that they were too loud for whomever took them, too, and rather than unload them on some unsuspecting innocent, the folks just returned them. Sweet Bride carried them upstairs, both at the same time (strong woman, She!), and now they are back in our system. The Minimus 7's are still here, too, but pouting in the corner, with a massive inferiority complex!! Hummm, what would Freud say about "woofer size", in such cases???!!!! :rotfl::spchless:

It's been very hard to get all that PO stick'em off the L300's, but what the heck..... I guess they have found a permanent home, and I'll just "suffer" with them!! ;):D:blink: By the way, I do hope that TiDome is OK!! I heard a low-flying jet buzz our area the day TD was supposed to arrive, and then some massive strafing!!! I think that Regis has a lot of s'plainin' to do!!!! :blink::blink: Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

Doc Mark
10-29-2008, 04:19 PM
Hi, Fred,

I'm really looking forward to reading about your enjoyable testing and comparison!! No matter HOW it turns out, I'm sure you will all have some great fun, and only wish I could be there with you, to share some of that!! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

toddalin
10-29-2008, 04:36 PM
During your testing, please do us a favor and report on with and without eyeglasses on. See if anyone can hear a difference and if so, what that difference is. :coolness:

Obviously, eyes will be shut in both cases.

Thanks

pmakres1
10-29-2008, 07:57 PM
Hey, Pete,

Sorry, they never made it to the Post Office! Remember, I dragged them down to the street, and someone took them, and left those nice-mannered Minimus 7's in their place!! That was very considerate, don't you think?! ;) But, the very next day, the L300's were BAAAAACK!! I'm guessing that they were too loud for whomever took them, too, and rather than unload them on some unsuspecting innocent, the folks just returned them. Sweet Bride carried them upstairs, both at the same time (strong woman, She!), and now they are back in our system. The Minimus 7's are still here, too, but pouting in the corner, with a massive inferiority complex!! Hummm, what would Freud say about "woofer size", in such cases???!!!! :rotfl::spchless:

It's been very hard to get all that PO stick'em off the L300's, but what the heck..... I guess they have found a permanent home, and I'll just "suffer" with them!! ;):D:blink: By the way, I do hope that TiDome is OK!! I heard a low-flying jet buzz our area the day TD was supposed to arrive, and then some massive strafing!!! I think that Regis has a lot of s'plainin' to do!!!! :blink::blink: Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

Doc,
You have my deepest condolences, having t put up with those L300's again....:biting:

Pete

hjames
10-30-2008, 02:50 AM
Doc,
You have my deepest condolences, having t put up with those L300's again....

Pete

I know they must be the best thing since pickled grits and haggis (ugh!),
but the closest thing at our sound-check to L300 will be Fred's pair of 4333s.
We'll just have to soldier on without a pair of those glass-topped, sloped front, top-of-the-line boxen.

We'll just have to suffer ... :D ... somehow.

Fred Sanford
10-30-2008, 04:10 AM
During your testing, please do us a favor and report on with and without eyeglasses on. See if anyone can hear a difference and if so, what that difference is. :coolness:

Obviously, eyes will be shut in both cases.

Thanks

Actually, with the close proximity to a few Halloween parties, I just may be testing with and without a wig & some Ray-Bans:

4313B
10-30-2008, 07:27 AM
I know they must be the best thing since pickled grits and haggis (ugh!),
but the closest thing at our sound-check to L300 will be Fred's pair of 4333s.
We'll just have to soldier on without a pair of those glass-topped, sloped front, top-of-the-line boxen.

We'll just have to suffer ... :D ... somehow.I greatly admire your pluck! Best of luck to all of you!

Fred Sanford
11-03-2008, 08:43 AM
During your testing, please do us a favor and report on with and without eyeglasses on. See if anyone can hear a difference and if so, what that difference is. :coolness:

Obviously, eyes will be shut in both cases.

Thanks

You have no idea how many times the other folks attending swapped glasses/no glasses during the day (I wear contacts).

I'll leave it to them to provide you with results of their thorough testing.

:coolness:

:cool:

:eek:

:dont-know

je

Fred Sanford
11-03-2008, 08:52 AM
It was fun, it was social, it was unscientific, and if it was supposed to keep Phil from wanting L300s I think it was unsuccessful. :applaud:

I didn't take a single picture yesterday, too busy swapping wires and slinging bagels, but I think Heather did take some. In fact, I didn't sit in a sweet spot all day, I was off to the side switching preamp feeds pretty much the whole time. We tried to keep our focus on the original idea (L7s side-by-side with 4333As), and then sort of flew through 120Tis/L1s/L20T3s/S38s/HP420s/L110s/L100s/L46s/TR225s once it started getting late.

I think the clearest "winner" of all was the Adcom 2535 power amps, actually. We really didn't notice them at all.

I'll post a couple of 'before' pics, to give you an idea of the spaces. Then maybe a list of the gear used. Then maybe some listening impressions.

je

Fred Sanford
11-03-2008, 09:01 AM
Some shots of the Living Room, the main rig & the room shot for perspective.

Gear used here:

Pioneer DVL-91 Elite DVD/LD/CD player. Digital out to a Marantz DP870 as a DAC, output splits to an Ashly SC22 crossover (low pass) and then the four signals continue on to an Adcom 2535 power amp (4 x 60W at 8 ohms), then to the 4333As.

To feed the L7s, we first took a fixed-level analog out from the Marantz DAC to a Soundcraftsmen preamp, then split to four channels of another Adcom 2535 power amp, then on to the un-strapped terminals of the L7s. At some point I got the bright idea of heading straight from the analog outs of the DVL-91 to the preamp, and all present noted an improvement in the high frequencies coming from the L7s...oops. Guess we coulda done that better from the start.

We did run pink noise through both setups & try to match levels, but at some point I must have adjusted the level on the 4333As by accident & then things were off. Let's say 25% of the listening was pre-matching, 50% matched, and then 25% more after my adjustment. :dont-know

We occasionally tried some tunes with another digital output from the DVL-91 going to the Yamaha RX-V1000, then to the Canton Karat 20s and NHT SW10 sub. I generally do run the NHT sub with the 4333As, using the 100Hz crossover in the Marantz DAC. For this testing we did not use the sub with the 4333As.

Yes, the position of the 4333As is a temporary compromise until we can build the custom cabinetry I've designed. I'm not loving them on the floor, and they did sound better at least standing vertically in a previous setup. It was kind of fun to watch everyone slide off the couch onto the floor every time we switched to the 4333As...

je

Fred Sanford
11-03-2008, 09:15 AM
Here's the control room downstairs, we listened to a couple tunes through this gear:

Alesis Masterlink CD player
Carvin MX1644 mixer
Yamaha P2100 power amp
JBL L110s
M&K V3B sub

je

Fred Sanford
11-03-2008, 09:29 AM
We listened to each of the JBLs here for a little while, then set up the smaller ones folks brought in (L1s, L20T3s, S38s).

HP420s (and then the L1s/L20T3s/S38s plus some Canton Plus Ss) were heard through a Phillips CDR-775 CD player, analog to a Denon PMA-920 integrated amp (2 x 115W 8ohms).

Five L46s (and Velodyne VA 1210X sub) were heard through:

Pioneer DVL-909 DVD/LD/CD player
Pioneer DVR-810H TiVo/DVD player
Philips CDR-775 CD player
Adcom GTP-600 preamp (analog signals)
Harman Kardon ADP-303 surround processor (digital signals & RF from LDs)
Elan Z-Amp (6 x 60W at 8 ohms)

L100As were heard through a Sony Discman (line out) to an EV BK1642 mixer with a Crown DC300A. TR225s were heard briefly through the same setup and an Audio Arts 1500 parametric EQ + JBL/Urei 6260 power amp.

Guitars, idle speakers, cymbals and drums all contributed their own resonances & sympathetic vibrations to the proceedings. I'm not going to inventory all of those here, though...

je

Fred Sanford
11-03-2008, 09:31 AM
Oh yeah, there were no EQs or tone controls used throughout with the following exceptions:

I did push the Loudness button on the Denon integrated amp a couple of times just for giggles, mostly when trying the HP420s and S38s.

There was a parametric EQ in line with the TR225s, set for feedback reduction, which really didn't matter 'cause they were set for mono and they sound pretty crappy anyway and nobody really seemed to care much.

je

hjames
11-03-2008, 10:18 AM
Oh yeah, there were no EQs or tone controls used throughout with the following exceptions:

I did push the Loudness button on the Denon integrated amp a couple of times just for giggles, mostly when trying the HP430s and S38s.

There was a parametric EQ in line with the TR225s, set for feedback reduction, which really didn't matter 'cause they were set for mono and they sound pretty crappy anyway and nobody really seemed to care much.

je
That was the basement systems testing - quite late in the day - Fred's existing L110s and L100s blew away the L1s, l20T3s and S-38_vIIs by a wide margin! (even with Loudness bump!)

But what a fun day - the drive down was great, the leaves along I66 and I81 were in full colour - and the company ... magnifique!

I'll dump my camera when I get home tonight and see if I have any good pictures - I kept forgetting to shoot!

The audio test was great - Fred's 4333s vs Phil's L7 4ways ... with Opimax's 120tis for grins later ...
I'll preface this by saying that I own 2 pairs of vintage systems, I'm used to the 15s/2420-horns/2405-slots sound, and I was really impressed with the L7 speakers - very very cool ... Its a great sound, different that the older horn systems, but still quite fine ...

I wouldn't swap either of my big pairs for a set of L7s - but that's just me because I know what mine sound like with lots of kinds of music - just as it took me a while to get used to the big horn speakers, I think it would take me a while to "unlearn" the sound I am currently most familiar with.

That said, if I didn't already own two big horn systems, I'd snap up a set of L7s in a heartbeat -
they have a great sound and are quite exciting to listen to ... and look to be a lot more affordable than the price on a set of the vintage 15" 3 or 4way systems.

Doc Mark
11-03-2008, 11:16 AM
Hey, Fred, Heather, and All,

WOW!! This is already fun, and the reports are just beginning to roll in!! :applaud::applaud: I only wish I could have been there to enjoy the day with you folks!! Fred, your place is outstanding, and you have a regular museum going downstairs!! :blink::bouncy:

No matter the actual "outcome" of this testing, I'm just so very glad that you guys actually made it happen, and I can hardly wait to share in your fun, vicariously, through your reports and photos!! Well done, and thanks, so much, for sharing it!! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc (who's on needles and pins, waiting to continue enjoying this neat stuff!!)

Titanium Dome
11-03-2008, 11:47 AM
Yes, I'm getting all worked up with anticipation. It sounds very cool.

Can a West Coast event be far behind?

Fred Sanford
11-03-2008, 01:54 PM
:applaud:

4333A (Higher extension of high frequencies than any other here, by an obvious margin. However, I think the 2405s were set a touch too loud, especially with the grilles off. 2231As are tired, and don't drop down as low as I think they should, might also not be as clean/clear as they could be due to spider sag & the questionable old Ashly crossover. I'm also still unhappy with the 800Hz area, right around my crossover point. A new active x-over is likely in the future, at the very least I need to borrow an RTA & calibrated mic. Overall very clean sound, easy to differentiate individual instruments & voices. I honestly think we hurt their sound a bit by having the L7s forward and outboard of them, that plus the grilles off made the horns harsher than what I'm used to in that room.)

HP420 (Placement dependant, strained in the low mids where the 5" driver picks up from ~140Hz, JBL tweeter is nice, aftermarket tweeter is only OK. Not bad, and surprising kick when "Rrroudness" button kicked in.)

L110 (A little dry when played right after the 120Ti/L7/4333A segment wrapped up, but in the assignment I've given it [near-field monitor] that's not such a bad thing. Accurate, solid, non-fatiguing.)

L100 (Sounded good on the Tempest song Mark hard-headedly insisted we use as reference [:D]; the tweeters always seem to grate on me, and the free-running woofer irritates me where it fights with the mid. Current config of a shelf near the ceiling and ZilchPlugg stuffing its hole isn't terrible, and the Crown DC300A is solid but not as pretty sounding as the Yamaha P2100 I was using previously.)

L46 (I'm liking these more and more every day. I think the pairing with the Elan Z-Amp is a good one. Placement near the ceiling seems to give me some reflections from the tweets, but I don't hate it. They do seem to be a very localized source, which isn't always good for surround- as in, it sounds like 5 distinct sound sources, instead of a nice, enveloping environment. Velodyne sub is good, but adjacent wall is too flimsy & often vibrates.)

TR225 (Eh. Big Eons. Absolutely fine as vocal monitors in my small studio, and came in handy for a couple of easy outdoor DJ gigs. :dont-know )

L7 (I'll try to stay away from "...for the money"-type statements, 'cause there's just no question that these are killers for the $200-300 deals we're hearing about. Solid, pleasing, smooth. I'd grab a pair if I had a location for them. Probably could have done them better justice by making sure we were balancing the highs & lows with the power amps, but I can't say that there was anything glaring, just that it was a guess. They need to be out away from the wall, so I'd think you'd need a big, or at least sparsely-furnished room.)

120Ti (We started with these up on barstools as stands, to get the drivers up near the height of the L7s. Mmmmm...only OK, a little anemic. Dropped them to the floor, and the punch showed up. There's certainly a happy medium, if we spent more time with placement. These were outboard of the L7s, which were outboard & forward from the 4333As. Tough crowd, tough room, and these I'm sure suffered for the lack of care & attention we gave to their setup. Played with two of the 60W amps within the 2535s- the amp didn't seem to struggle, but we weren't pushing it. At this point we also did the same with the L7s, with input jumper straps in place.)

L5 (stayed in the wannabeemer mini-van, never came inside. :()

NOTE- these next few were heard on small stands, maybe 12-14" high:

L1 (I liked it. Solid, not terribly articulate midrange, but not annoying or vague either. Didn't sound like it looked, never really sounded like a smaller speaker to me. I should have compared it to the HP420s, now I'm kind of curious to hear those tweets in an A/B.)

S38 (I didn't like it. Interesting look & configuration, lacked definition in the mids and might have actually been the worst we heard for high-end extension. Heather mentioned that her previous pair had an obviously different sound, so take that for what it's worth.)

L20T3 (Boxy, kinda like thumpin' on cardboard. Always drew my attention to their size. I think I could do a lot with better placement, and maybe a sub would free up these woofs to offer up some clarity to the midrange.)

...and a couple other speakers were heard here & there:

Canton Karat 20 (I really like these for surround, very natural for voice & sound effects, and they don't bring attention to themselves visually or audibly. Also great for lower-volume music listening, slightly hyped highs & a theater-type sub are a kind of built-in compensation for that use. Strained a bit when compared with the bigger JBLs for higher-volume tests, but didn't embarrass themselves.)

Canton Plus S (tossed quickly on the pile after the L20T3s and L1s, they were good but obviously satellites in search of a sub. Interestingly, these seemed to simply NOT play low freqs it couldn't handle, where the L20T3s tried to push it out & ended up hurting the overall sound. I like these for ambient music in a room, again the highs are a bit hyped so a mellower amp & less in-your-face placement pays off nicely. I've used these consistently for over 20 years, they've been real troopers.)

NHT SW10 sub (Ported 10". I love it for the size, I've had some little electronic quirks with it but think it was well worth the money.)

Velodyne VA-1210X sub (10" front-firing driver, 12" down-firing passive. Beefy. Its current shoved-in-a-corner location is an audio compromise, it's obvious that the left side of the room is heavier than the right. Two smaller subs up front would actually be a better approach, I think.)

M&K V3B sub (12" sealed acoustic suspension. Actually barely even on, under the desk with the L110s. The L110s are running full-range, the M&K is actually only in place to keep me from pushing too much low-end into my mixes- as soon as I can feel the bass against my legs, there's enough in the mix. I like it, but it's got a specific function to carry out in this config.)

I'm curious about other attendees' opinions on the following:

Pioneer DVL-91 (used as the CD player/transport for the Living Room)

Adcom 2535 (power amps used upstairs)

L110s/M&K V3B (control room, only listened to snips of 2 songs, I think)

HP420s (studio, octagonal black towers)

Elan power amp (studio surround system, powering the L46s)

je

hjames
11-03-2008, 03:13 PM
Just dumped the few pix from the camera - like I said, we had so much fun and the socializing so good that after a few initial pictures I forgot to keep shooting ...

Doc Mark
11-03-2008, 03:32 PM
Hey, Fred and Heather,

Great stuff!! Please keep it coming! Did you remember to take a group photo of all of you, so we can all "meet you in person"? That's always fun! Thanks, again, for all your efforts, and it's great to hear your thoughts on everything, and to see how it was all setup. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

hjames
11-03-2008, 03:38 PM
:applaud:

... (Sounded good on the Tempest song Mark hard-headedly insisted we use as reference [:D];

je

Hey - I was at the Richmond Highland Festival LAST weekend, so when I heard Mark's celtic Rock (not quite Seven Nations or Lunasa but cool) I had to add it to the collection!
Enough good music that this morning I ordered that Tempest CD (The Double-Cross), the first FourPlay CD and another that celtic album that John recommended (In Tua Nua) - Lord knows I love me some pipers!

(Quick snaps from an 8 minute AVI I shot of maybe 100+ pipers and drummers going by)

Fred Sanford
11-03-2008, 03:40 PM
That was the basement systems testing - quite late in the day - Fred's existing L110s and L100s blew away the L1s, l20T3s and S-38_vIIs by a wide margin! (even with Loudness bump!)

That's kind of expected, though, no? What did you think of the HP420s, did you get a feel for them at all?



But what a fun day - the drive down was great, the leaves along I66 and I81 were in full colour - and the company ... magnifique!

I'll dump my camera when I get home tonight and see if I have any good pictures - I kept forgetting to shoot!


Excellent- we were happy to have good weather, it's always a drag if people come over and can't spend at least a little time outside on the deck or porch. It's always good to see the two of you, hope Emma liked our place. I thought she'd be into at least some of the listening, but she seemed to prefer the outdoors.



The audio test was great - Fred's 4333s vs Phil's L7 4ways ... with Opimax's 120tis for grins later ...
I'll preface this by saying that I own 2 pairs of vintage systems, I'm used to the 15s/2420-horns/2405-slots sound, and I was really impressed with the L7 speakers - very very cool ... Its a great sound, different that the older horn systems, but still quite fine ...

I wouldn't swap either of my big pairs for a set of L7s - but that's just me because I know what mine sound like with lots of kinds of music - just as it took me a while to get used to the big horn speakers, I think it would take me a while to "unlearn" the sound I am currently most familiar with.

That said, if I didn't already own two big horn systems, I'd snap up a set of L7s in a heartbeat -
they have a great sound and are quite exciting to listen to ... and look to be a lot more affordable than the price on a set of the vintage 15" 3 or 4way systems.


I'm with you on all of that...I've just gotten really lucky on all of mine, if I had to purchase any of mine at the going market rate, things would be much different.

je

Fred Sanford
11-03-2008, 03:44 PM
Hey, Fred, Heather, and All,

WOW!! This is already fun, and the reports are just beginning to roll in!! :applaud::applaud: I only wish I could have been there to enjoy the day with you folks!! Fred, your place is outstanding, and you have a regular museum going downstairs!! :blink::bouncy:

Is that just a nice way of saying, "Dude, all your stuff is really OLD!"? ;)
Thanks, I think...:o:



No matter the actual "outcome" of this testing, I'm just so very glad that you guys actually made it happen, and I can hardly wait to share in your fun, vicariously, through your reports and photos!! Well done, and thanks, so much, for sharing it!! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc (who's on needles and pins, waiting to continue enjoying this neat stuff!!)


We ought to organize a bit better, this was something we were winging as we went along. We also did this on Daylight Savings day, so starting at noon didn't give us a big enough block of time, considering that half of us had a 5 hour round trip as bookends to the shindig. We'll do it again, don't worry. If you can make it to VA you can check out the drum set, too! :bouncy:

je

Fred Sanford
11-03-2008, 03:49 PM
Yes, I'm getting all worked up with anticipation. It sounds very cool.

Can a West Coast event be far behind?

Weren't you the one that commented on my basement plans, and the inevitable density of my "stuff"? Tough to gauge from the pics, but it's working out OK so far. Once I actually get 4 or more people playing in the studio at the same time I may reconsider that statement, though.

It's kind of revealing to even run through my own systems all in a row with the same recordings. Interesting.

je

Fred Sanford
11-03-2008, 03:57 PM
Hey, Fred and Heather,

Great stuff!! Please keep it coming! Did you remember to take a group photo of all of you, so we can all "meet you in person"? That's always fun! Thanks, again, for all your efforts, and it's great to hear your thoughts on everything, and to see how it was all setup. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

Of course not! You get to see the side of my JBL t-shirt, Phil's posterior, and Mark's shoe.

:o:

je

Oh, yeah, and the pooch in the pic we call "Nurse Olivine", she likes to oversee any detailed tasks that may be taking place at floor level. She's actually the pooch that likes listening to the stereo, too- our Lab couldn't care less.

opimax
11-03-2008, 04:18 PM
and its a nice shoe!!!

Mark

hjames
11-03-2008, 07:07 PM
Of course not! You get to see the side of my JBL t-shirt, Phil's posterior, and Mark's shoe.

:o:

je

Oh, yeah, and the pooch in the pic we call "Nurse Olivine", she likes to oversee any detailed tasks that may be taking place at floor level. She's actually the pooch that likes listening to the stereo, too- our Lab couldn't care less.

How else would we be able to maintain the anonymity and the mystery of the Shenandoah Valley listening party?
Mark's Shoe, and my shoebox of test CDs!

And the Photog is never in the picture - so sorry!

The dogs? We HAD to have a standalone woofer!
And Emma says the Lab loved her blues harp playing ... barky good times!

macaroonie
11-03-2008, 07:35 PM
(Quick snaps from an 8 minute AVI I shot of maybe 100+ pipers and drummers going by)[/QUOTE]

You tube it and post the link please.:D

On that subject you can view the nonsense in my local last Fri if you you tube search ' poodle drymen '. dude raised £1000 ish for getting his hair cut.!!

BMWCCA
11-03-2008, 09:25 PM
Sorry to chime in so late but I had work to take care of today; and I had to put my system back together, or at least get it out of the van and back upstairs before the rains set in for election day here in Central Virginia.

For my part, I dragged along the L7s, L5s, L1s, 4412As, Soundcraftsmen DX4200, Soundcraftsmen Pro-Control-Four, and two Crown PS-400s. It was truly a van-full and I was just hoping I wouldn't get stopped by a LEO and have to explain what houses I'd just broken into.

I started this idea just because there seemed to be no one on this list who's had the opportunity to actually listen to the iconic L300 next to the upstart L7. I'd always intended to buy myself a pair of L300s as a house-warming present but sending two daughters to college and one still to go has left me not only not ready to buy the L300s at the prevailing market price, but also unable to build the new home on my property across the street. Oh well, I'll just have to live longer!

So John (Fred Sanford) offered not only his 4333s as L300 stand-ins, but also his home for the venue. Fred had met Heather, and Heather and Fred had met me previously, and Heather and Mark (Opimax) had previously met——all through this list. This was the first time John and I had met Mark but it was a natural thing since we're all sharing this crazy hobby. But John has the kind of "collection" you can go home and use to convince your (my) wife that you (me) aren't as crazy as some others!

After we ate ourselves into the proper mood, we sat down for some serious listening.

John went out of his way to present a level playing field for the L7/4333 comparison. Matching amps, split source, and even the pink-noise generator and dB meter. He also had the unenviable task of being our human A-B switch. Of course we all loved the 4333s; that was never really in question. They're still an aspirational speaker for me and one of those brass rings that make life worth living. But I think what surprised us all was that often when listening to the L7s first on a selection (we swapped order frequently, just because) it sometimes took us a while to settle back into the 4333 sound. Of course they were quite different but sometimes the low-end felt a bit mushy on the L7s when it was articulate on the big monitors. And then sometimes the bass sounded right on the L7s and overemphasized (for lack of a better word) on the 4333s right after. There is no question that horns sound MUCH better on a horn, and in most cases we all could pick out some nuances in the mid-range of the 4333 that just wasn't there on the cones of the L7. What struck me also was that my own music didn't sound all that much better on the 4433s but I could easily tell differences on new-to-me music. Persistence of memory? Cognitive dissonance? Certainly unfamiliar selections made for a better control.

I'm glad to have heard the 4333s in such a nice set-up and they didn't ever disappoint. I can't imagine that there's much better out there for home listening. But the L7s are impressive boxes as were the 120Ti's. It was amazing how much we altered the 120Ti output with one placement adjustment and not spending much time on them. A quick listen to them alongside the L7s, splitting the power to both, showed them to be superb for their size. I equate their sound to my 4412As but we just ran out of time to do that comparison. Nor did we really spend much time comparing the 120Ti to the L7 though the differences between those two was far less obvious than the L7-to-4333 comparison. Still, horns aside, a 12" is seldom a match for a 15" JBL. Cabinet size along with woofer size essentially pitted the V8 4333 against the 6-cylinder 12" systems, and you can guess which won what Mark described as a horsepower war.

The one comparison I was sorry we didn't have time to do was to set up each system the way it's powered where they live. For John, he was pretty much set since it was his home. He does use the sub with the 4333s but, growing up with D130s and not being into HT, too much bass seems a bit unnatural to me anyway so that's not what I wanted to hear. But I would like to try the L7 with the 4333 again but with the power I feed the L7 at home, or even twice that in the passive bi-amp mode they are designed for. The 4333s are rated a bit more efficient but with a small power requirement. JBL lists the "maximum power input" for the 4333 as 75 watts with a note saying they recommend a minimum of 3db of headroom or essentially for 75-watts the recommendation is a 150-watt-per-channel amp as a minimum. John had his 4333s split through active crossovers using 60-watt-per-channel Adcoms so even the 4333s might have benifitted from a bit more kick, but we really never went that loud. I never saw a maximum recommendation that correlated with the minimum head-room recommendation so maybe someone else can fill me in on that stat. The L300 literature recommends amplification "up to" 150 WPC with an apparent minimum of 10-wpc.

The L7 is a hungrier animal and JBL lists the recommended power range of 35-to-450 WPC. Now assuming that's at the rated 6-ohm impedence, bi-amping the PS-400s should produce something around 260 WPC. That might actually provide an interesting comparison over the 60 WPC we were providing with the Adcom—which performed beatifully. I've played them pretty loud at home with that 260-watts of Crown in non-bi-amp mode. I was going to set them up in bi-amp as I re-installed them in their room, but instead opted for using one PS-400 each to the L7s and the L5s. I can dump the straps and swap the speaker leads some other time. It might blow the roof off my tiny home.

The little speakers were an interesting comparison. While Heather was looking to dump her L20Ts for the S38-IIs in her surround-sound system, what I heard with those compared to the L1s and L20T3 would have me questioning making the effort. I've run my L1s next to my L20Ts and found little difference. I think Mark and I agreed there was little to differentiate the L20T3s from the L1s and we'd all have to conclude that those tiniest of all "real" JBLs are some pretty amazing accomplishments, perhaps with no equal in the current JBL lineup.

John asked and I found nothing to fault the system setup or any of the components. The electronics worked faultessly and in no way brought attention to themselves during the listening. There was some great music passed around and I'm sure we have much more to share should we be lucky enough to pull this off again. If I had to make one conclusion after all the effort everyone went to it would be that the 4333/L300 is still the king of what normal people might allow in their home's living room. The L7 is a fine speaker that is certainly the equal of any other 12" JBL system (perhaps the king of those) and certainly an undervalued gem in today's market. I'm thinking an interesting comparison might be the 240ti and the L7. I've always had a soft spot for the LE14H-1 and I'd like to pit it against the 4333/L300 at some point.

Yes, we had fun. Lots of it!! I'd love to do it again (even if I nearly gave myself a heart attack schlepping the L5s, L7s, and the big Crowns up the stairs at home by myself while my wife was away!). Today I envisioned an outdoor shelter where the systems could play loud without boundaries. But that must have been mostly because I was standing outside around 5:30pm watching a most beautiful sunset over the Blue Ridge Mountains this evening.

A special thanks to John and Jean for sharing their home, feeding us all, and just putting up with this silliness on a beautiful Sunday afternoon when they could have been elsewhere. Thanks to Mark, Heather, and Emma for making a long trip and bringing along such goodies. I'd heartily recommend this activity for the rest of you. Some might want it to be more scientific but I'd do it for the camaraderie!

And thanks to LHF for bringing us all together and fostering such friendships and support.

Doc Mark
11-03-2008, 10:41 PM
Evening, BMWCCA,

What an outstanding report!! Well written, well thought-out, and well done, all around!! As you already know, I'm very biased for the L300's, and think that most any speaker is going to have a tough row to hoe in comparison, though I'm sure that some of the "high cotton" newer things can best them. But, I would have loved to have been there to hear the L7's, and all the other great JBL stuff you all got to enjoy!! I can just "see" it, now!! What fun!! Did Heather bring her Boz Scaggs, "Dig" CD, and if so, how did you like the very LF synth bass on some of the tracks? I love that, myself!! She also recommended the Jennifer Warnes "The Hunter" CD, which is another outstanding listen. I would have very much enjoyed hearing Warne's lilting voice on other systems, as I dearly LOVE her voice on our L300's!! To me, as biased as I am towards those speakers, I think the real winners of all this were you and the others who got together to make it all happen, Sir!!! Again, to one and all who were involved in this, "WELL DONE"!!! :applaud::D:applaud::D:applaud: Take care, and God Bless!

EVery Good Wish,
Doc (who will have to listen to "Desire", from the "Dig" CD, just once more, before bed!)

hjames
11-04-2008, 03:28 AM
Yep - we did play "Desire" on the 2 big systems - near overkill ...
We didn't get to Warnes- tho I'd brought both original & Remastered versions of "Famous Blue Raincoat" - we never got to it ...
John had Eargel on Everest and played the 1812 snippet-
I brought a different Delos disc - Giora Feidman -Magic of the Klezmer
http://www.amazon.com/Magic-Klezmer-Giora-Feidman/dp/B00000071T/
and played the Gershwin section - it's miked so close you can hear the reeds rattle when he makes his clarinet laugh ...

But just a lot of great music and friendship - lets do it again!


Evening, BMWCCA,

What an outstanding report!! Well written, well thought-out, and well done, all around!! As you already know, I'm very biased for the L300's, and think that most any speaker is going to have a tough row to hoe in comparison, though I'm sure that some of the "high cotton" newer things can best them. But, I would have loved to have been there to hear the L7's, and all the other great JBL stuff you all got to enjoy!! I can just "see" it, now!! What fun!! Did Heather bring her Boz Scaggs, "Dig" CD, and if so, how did you like the very LF synth bass on some of the tracks? I love that, myself!! She also recommended the Jennifer Warnes "The Hunter" CD, which is another outstanding listen. I would have very much enjoyed hearing Warne's lilting voice on other systems, as I dearly LOVE her voice on our L300's!! To me, as biased as I am towards those speakers, I think the real winners of all this were you and the others who got together to make it all happen, Sir!!! Again, to one and all who were involved in this, "WELL DONE"!!! :applaud::D:applaud::D:applaud: Take care, and God Bless!

EVery Good Wish,
Doc (who will have to listen to "Desire", from the "Dig" CD, just once more, before bed!)

Fred Sanford
11-04-2008, 04:53 AM
I threw a bunch of tunes out during the day that were well-recorded, but sometimes troublesome for certain systems to reproduce smoothly. Some also had interesting stereo placement, or very high-freq percussion. I normally would have started with acoustic solo instrumentals to look for problems in placement or electronics, but we sort of got off to a shaky start (actually all sort of getting to know each other & get a feel for what we wanted to get from the day) and kind of got focused on the speakers in stages. Initially even getting folks to sit down for food was a bit of cat-herding, but it felt good that the animated conversations had started immediately and folks were getting along very well and settling in comfortably to our home.

Here's some of the tunes I provided - some of them sounded similar between the L7s and 4333As, some REALLY highlighted the differences:

Bonnie Raitt - Baby Mine
Lyle Lovett - She's Already Made Up Her Mind
k d lang - Wash Me Clean
Zap Mama - Bottom
Walter Becker - Down In The Bottom
Paul Weller - Sunflower
Bob James/David Sanborn - Moon Tune
Jeff Golub - Wanna Funk?
Dallas Symphony Orchestra - 1812 Overture (excerpt)
Train - Ordinary
Nickelback - Animals


Mark's CD ("Tempest"?) had a bass-guitar soloing track that became the de-facto reference for the day, possibly because it was the only music there that NOBODY had ever heard before, Mark included. It had a couple of nice, fluid solos that I think were played on a 5-string bass, because at a few points the notes would gliss down the neck, and then nearly disappear on the 4333As. The L7s hung on, and the Canton/NHT combo transitioned well.

je

Fred Sanford
11-04-2008, 05:05 AM
To give you all a reference, we started with both systems reading around 85db with pink noise. I think I was really aware of the ringing from the room, and I also wanted to find a balanced mid-point where we weren't too loud (taxing the Adcoms or hurting our ears) or too soft (starving the woofers or fighting with ambient sounds). Don't know if I've typed it before, but the "starving the Adcoms" concern also plays into my use of the NHT sub, figuring that if the 2231As were only responsible for ~100Hz - ~800Hz, the 60 watts per could be adequate for the type of listening I'd do in that room.

I have a bunch of higher-powered amps here, the Adcom 2535 was chosen mostly 'cause of WAF and the convenience of 4 amps in one chassis (owning a spare was another perk). As noted, they seem to be doing fine so far, I didn't sense that they were straining at any point on Sunday, even with the 'everything-louder-than-everything-else' tunes.

je

hjames
11-04-2008, 05:32 AM
To give you all a reference, we started with both systems reading around 85db with pink noise. I think I was really aware of the ringing from the room, and I also wanted to find a balanced mid-point where we weren't too loud (taxing the Adcoms or hurting our ears) or too soft (starving the woofers or fighting with ambient sounds). Don't know if I've typed it before, but the "starving the Adcoms" concern also plays into my use of the NHT sub, figuring that if the 2231As were only responsible for ~100Hz - ~800Hz, the 60 watts per could be adequate for the type of listening I'd do in that room.

I have a bunch of higher-powered amps here, the Adcom 2535 was chosen mostly 'cause of WAF and the convenience of 4 amps in one chassis (owning a spare was another perk). As noted, they seem to be doing fine so far, I didn't sense that they were straining at any point on Sunday, even with the 'everything-louder-than-everything-else' tunes.

je
Yes, and i did not come home with ringing ears - the sound was nicely defined and generally full ... other than the over-compressed demo tracks you played for grins ...

Fred Sanford
11-04-2008, 05:45 AM
Sorry to chime in so late but I had work to take care of today; and I had to put my system back together, or at least get it out of the van and back upstairs before the rains set in for election day here in Central Virginia.

For my part, I dragged along the L7s, L5s, L1s, 4412As, Soundcraftsmen DX4200, Soundcraftsmen Pro-Control-Four, and two Crown PS-400s. It was truly a van-full and I was just hoping I wouldn't get stopped by a LEO and have to explain what houses I'd just broken into.

I started this idea just because there seemed to be no one on this list who's had the opportunity to actually listen to the iconic L300 next to the upstart L7. I'd always intended to buy myself a pair of L300s as a house-warming present but sending two daughters to college and one still to go has left me not only not ready to buy the L300s at the prevailing market price, but also unable to build the new home on my property across the street. Oh well, I'll just have to live longer!

So John (Fred Sanford) offered not only his 4333s as L300 stand-ins, but also his home for the venue. Fred had met Heather, and Heather and Fred had met me previously, and Heather and Mark (Opimax) had previously met——all through this list. This was the first time John and I had met Mark but it was a natural thing since we're all sharing this crazy hobby. But John has the kind of "collection" you can go home and use to convince your (my) wife that you (me) aren't as crazy as some others!

After we ate ourselves into the proper mood, we sat down for some serious listening.

We did all agree on the dips being very good, our first consensus of the day:

http://www.gourmetcreations.net/



John went out of his way to present a level playing field for the L7/4333 comparison. Matching amps, split source, and even the pink-noise generator and dB meter. He also had the unenviable task of being our human A-B switch. Of course we all loved the 4333s; that was never really in question. They're still an aspirational speaker for me and one of those brass rings that make life worth living. But I think what surprised us all was that often when listening to the L7s first on a selection (we swapped order frequently, just because) it sometimes took us a while to settle back into the 4333 sound. Of course they were quite different but sometimes the low-end felt a bit mushy on the L7s when it was articulate on the big monitors. And then sometimes the bass sounded right on the L7s and overemphasized (for lack of a better word) on the 4333s right after. There is no question that horns sound MUCH better on a horn, and in most cases we all could pick out some nuances in the mid-range of the 4333 that just wasn't there on the cones of the L7. What struck me also was that my own music didn't sound all that much better on the 4433s but I could easily tell differences on new-to-me music. Persistence of memory? Cognitive dissonance? Certainly unfamiliar selections made for a better control.

Tough to guess the right tunes in advance as the host, but it was something to start the festivities with. I tried to keep the focus on the initial L7/4333A comparison, then let it go where it may.


I'm glad to have heard the 4333s in such a nice set-up and they didn't ever disappoint. I can't imagine that there's much better out there for home listening. But the L7s are impressive boxes as were the 120Ti's. It was amazing how much we altered the 120Ti output with one placement adjustment and not spending much time on them. A quick listen to them alongside the L7s, splitting the power to both, showed them to be superb for their size. I equate their sound to my 4412As but we just ran out of time to do that comparison. Nor did we really spend much time comparing the 120Ti to the L7 though the differences between those two was far less obvious than the L7-to-4333 comparison. Still, horns aside, a 12" is seldom a match for a 15" JBL. Cabinet size along with woofer size essentially pitted the V8 4333 against the 6-cylinder 12" systems, and you can guess which won what Mark described as a horsepower war.

It's obvious that placement is really key - at one point during prep for this I even brought the HP420s from the basement as L7 stand-ins, and they just plain sucked in the living room outboard of the 4333As. I think the 4333As could also get a good bit better. Each of my speaker locations is partially driven by convenience & aesthetics, each of the guest speakers' locations was driven by circumstance & surroundings.

I think that well-set subs can level the 12" vs. 15" playing field to some degree, but they toss more placement/settings/tweaking issues into the mix.


The one comparison I was sorry we didn't have time to do was to set up each system the way it's powered where they live. For John, he was pretty much set since it was his home. He does use the sub with the 4333s but, growing up with D130s and not being into HT, too much bass seems a bit unnatural to me anyway so that's not what I wanted to hear. But I would like to try the L7 with the 4333 again but with the power I feed the L7 at home, or even twice that in the passive bi-amp mode they are designed for. The 4333s are rated a bit more efficient but with a small power requirement. JBL lists the "maximum power input" for the 4333 as 75 watts with a note saying they recommend a minimum of 3db of headroom or essentially for 75-watts the recommendation is a 150-watt-per-channel amp as a minimum. John had his 4333s split through active crossovers using 60-watt-per-channel Adcoms so even the 4333s might have benifitted from a bit more kick, but we really never went that loud. I never saw a maximum recommendation that correlated with the minimum head-room recommendation so maybe someone else can fill me in on that stat. The L300 literature recommends amplification "up to" 150 WPC with an apparent minimum of 10-wpc.

The L7 is a hungrier animal and JBL lists the recommended power range of 35-to-450 WPC. Now assuming that's at the rated 6-ohm impedence, bi-amping the PS-400s should produce something around 260 WPC. That might actually provide an interesting comparison over the 60 WPC we were providing with the Adcom—which performed beatifully. I've played them pretty loud at home with that 260-watts of Crown in non-bi-amp mode. I was going to set them up in bi-amp as I re-installed them in their room, but instead opted for using one PS-400 each to the L7s and the L5s. I can dump the straps and swap the speaker leads some other time. It might blow the roof off my tiny home.


I agree, and I'm sorry you put all that work into lugging the Crowns & 4412As. I think we just ran out of time. Maybe a longer, summer day next year...

Might also have been interesting to have you take an Adcom home just to A/B that with the Crowns, to see if you think the Crowns were a better overall tonal match to the L7s.


The little speakers were an interesting comparison. While Heather was looking to dump her L20Ts for the S38-IIs in her surround-sound system, what I heard with those compared to the L1s and L20T3 would have me questioning making the effort. I've run my L1s next to my L20Ts and found little difference. I think Mark and I agreed there was little to differentiate the L20T3s from the L1s and we'd all have to conclude that those tiniest of all "real" JBLs are some pretty amazing accomplishments, perhaps with no equal in the current JBL lineup.

Maybe it was my location in the room (crouched near the speakers and off to the left) that made the differences more obvious.


John asked and I found nothing to fault the system setup or any of the components. The electronics worked faultessly and in no way brought attention to themselves during the listening. There was some great music passed around and I'm sure we have much more to share should we be lucky enough to pull this off again. If I had to make one conclusion after all the effort everyone went to it would be that the 4333/L300 is still the king of what normal people might allow in their home's living room. The L7 is a fine speaker that is certainly the equal of any other 12" JBL system (perhaps the king of those) and certainly an undervalued gem in today's market. I'm thinking an interesting comparison might be the 240ti and the L7. I've always had a soft spot for the LE14H-1 and I'd like to pit it against the 4333/L300 at some point.

I'm glad that the 4333As sounded that good to all of you. I was really uncertain that they would, honestly. I acquired these speakers in VERY bad shape, and have been intimately involved in improving these puppies bit by bit. As a result, I'm painfully aware of what still needs to be done (or what shortcuts have been taken).

Actually, we still don't know what Mark thinks, other than the fact that he's quite proud of his shoe. :applaud:



A special thanks to John and Jean for sharing their home, feeding us all, and just putting up with this silliness on a beautiful Sunday afternoon when they could have been elsewhere. Thanks to Mark, Heather, and Emma for making a long trip and bringing along such goodies. I'd heartily recommend this activity for the rest of you. Some might want it to be more scientific but I'd do it for the camaraderie!

And thanks to LHF for bringing us all together and fostering such friendships and support.


You're absolutely welcome, and yes it's great that freaks like us have a virtual gathering place here. As a host, I did feel that I wanted to provide a meaningful, accurate comparison for the main A/B test, but as you said-the personal interaction trumped that quickly, and everybody relaxed & went with the flow.

je

opimax
11-04-2008, 06:41 AM
I need to respond when I have some more time. I feel asleep in front of the recorded football game and slept most of the night in my chair, 1st time since I have Had them , couple years. I must get ready for work now, late already.

Couple of quickys

I had a great time , appreciate everybody putting up w/my test disc that I made sure we used ;) . I was favorably impressed with the "l300" , need to compare to some 250s next. I was surprised how different the 120s sounded when moved to the floor. I thought the l7s would be a little closer to the sound quality of the 4333s, I was more impressed by the 4333 than dissapointed in the 7s. still 1 of the best deals currently available for JBLs. Everytime we went back to the 4333s for the 1st 3-8 seconds they were "different" and then settled in to a smooth sound, hard to explain.
It was great time Enjoyed meeting the guys and always enjoy Heather and Emma's company!

John was a great director of the show, not surprised it wasn't as scientific as you thought it might be, maybe after a couple of get togethers it will become more so.

I hope to write more later , even respond to some comments.

1 final thought for now I didn't want to push but I was curious what it would sound like at a high volume (for a short time), flash those warning :bouncy:LEDS:bouncy:

PS I haven't hooked the 120s yet either :)

Fred Sanford
11-04-2008, 08:09 AM
Here's the mental image I had when Phil announced that he was heading over the mountains from C'Ville with a van packed full of L1s/L5s/L7s/4412As plus Crown & Soundcraftsmen gear:

4313B
11-04-2008, 08:23 AM
:applaud:

Fred Sanford
11-04-2008, 09:02 AM
:applaud:

Is that an overall ovation, or just for the big lizard pic?

je

4313B
11-04-2008, 09:09 AM
Is that an overall ovation, or just for the big lizard pic?

jeWell... ok... I really liked the big lizard pic. :D

I think the overall endeavor was very cool. :applaud:

Regis
11-04-2008, 10:10 AM
Phil, that was a most excellent write-up! All the add'l commentary from Fred, Heather and the rest of the crew was well-taken. I have an intense interest in the L7 as I am going to set up a good friend of mine, with possibly buying a pair. Though I've never heard them, I can only trust what I know and what I've heard from very reliable sources including our good bud and local expert Ti Dome :D.

It is amazing to myself, how often I've 'winged-it' on JBL systems. I've purchased more than a few pair, sight and sound unseen. So far, I've never been disappointed yet.

I'm wondering out loud, whether to set up my bud with the L7's or go with a pair of L5's and supplement those with a pair of modern Subwoofers. In my L5 scenario, I don't want the mains to go very low and would rather have the modern sub technology do that job (similiar to what I'm doing with my 4315 - Velodyne HGS-12x combo). It's a very appealing set up.

BMWCCA
11-04-2008, 11:21 AM
Now that I have both the L7 and L5 operational next to each other, I can maybe give you some thoughts on your thinking. The L5 is wonderful and if your primary listening position is seated on a couch, they work great and really would be all the best of the L7 plus more if you used them with a Velodyne. What the L7s do better is to image within the room regardless of where you are. Maybe some of that is the 90º off-axis 12" that ranges up to 180Hz but most of it is probably how high the tweeters are carried in the "line-array" tilted top section. If you're standing up, walking around, the L5 can sound shrill since it's likely to be aimed at your ears. The L7 will shoot out into the room but not act as dramatically different as the L5 between standing and seated. Perhaps that is because I find the titanium tweeters a bit harsh in some of the 035tiA applications and even 052Ti in the 4412As and I usually EQ them to pull back the very UHF. For some reason the 035Ti in the L20s and the 035TiA in the L1 don't bother me that same way where they're crossed slightly lower; 3kHz v. 4kHz

During our test, John switched the output to the L7s from the A-to-D converter to the CD-player's analog out and the L7 got (to me) too bright at times, but maybe because we'd spent so much time listening to it through the DAC. :dont-know Of course that didn't affect the 4333s but then at times we'd felt the 2405s were too hot though we thought to blame that on their being bounced off the L7s right next to them. I can tell you here at home the 035tiA isn't too hot running flat, seated or standing, but the L5 can bring that range right to your ear if you're not sitting. So it's a minor placement issue for the L5. Oddly enough, the L5's 8" 708G is actually crossed slightly lower (170 Hz) than the L7's LE120H-1 while the L7's 708G is crossed at 900 Hz. Strange choices but they seem to both work. Knowing nothing about subs, it would seem a true sub might actually work better with the L5 than the L7.

But for my listening, the L7 really doesn't need a sub. John gave me the CD he compiled for our test and playing it now, where my L7s are normally set-up and using one PS-400 in non-bi-amp mode, they are never lacking in bass on those same cuts I heard at John's home. My youngest daughter can't even stay in the room with the Soundcraftsmen set at 12-o'clock and the Crown set the same. For you home-theater folks who just have to hear those helicopter blades, maybe it's not enough. I'll have to hook up the DVD player and see what happens.

There seem to be more good choices in old JBLs out there than there are bad.

hjames
11-04-2008, 11:32 AM
But for my listening, the L7 really doesn't need a sub. John gave me the CD he compiled for our test and playing it now, where my L7s are normally set-up and using one PS-400 in non-bi-amp mode, they are never lacking in bass on those same cuts I heard at John's home. My youngest daughter can't even stay in the room with the Soundcraftsmen set at 12-o'clock and the Crown set the same. For you home-theater folks who just have to hear those helicopter blades, maybe it's not enough. I'll have to hook up the DVD player and see what happens.

There seem to be more good choices in old JBLs out there than there are bad.

Sounds to me like its time for you to set up your L7 Home theatre room!
Or are you better covered with multiple pairs of L5s?

BMWCCA
11-04-2008, 11:44 AM
Sounds to me like its time for you to set up your L7 Home theatre room!With which, my 19" widescreen HDTV or my 27" JVC CRT set? :hmm: ;)

hjames
11-04-2008, 11:53 AM
With which, my 19" widescreen HDTV or my 27" JVC CRT set? :hmm: ;)

whatever you like - sometimes the treat is just playing something in surround sound ...
I had to check when I ordered that Fourplay CD that I didn't order the DVD-Audio version ... there were a lot of good reviews of that, but I wanted the regular version (Thanks again for demoing that album for us!)

Regis
11-04-2008, 12:10 PM
Thank You very much Phil! Your thoughts and experience lines up with what I thought. Especially the sitting, versus standing point. The L5 would be very well paired up with modern subs (I don't know what my friends WAF is yet...). If WAF is highly negative, then the L7's would do the trick. Another interesting sub-combo might even be the XPL 140 or XPL 160.

Fred Sanford
11-04-2008, 02:01 PM
During our test, John switched the output to the L7s from the A-to-D converter to the CD-player's analog out and the L7 got (to me) too bright at times, but maybe because we'd spent so much time listening to it through the DAC. :dont-know

Here's the Pioneer blurb on the "Legato Link" conversion that player's analog output uses:


What is Hi-Bit Legato Link Conversion?
Hi-Bit Legato Link Conversion combines Pioneer-developed bit expansion technology with Legato Link for still better musical reproduction. In the process of recording and mastering a CD, low-level signals -- signals lower than LSB (Least Significant Bit) of a CDs 16-bit system -- are removed. But the absence of low-level signals causes quantization noise, resulting in a stepped waveform of converted analog signals -- proof that reproduced sound is quite unlike the original.

Pioneer Hi-Bit Legato Link Conversion restores the lost signals by computing the original waveform from 16-bit data stored on the CD and performing re-quantization in expanded 24-bit data form. This conversion process results in a waveform which is both smoother and closer to the original than conventional technology allows. And Legato Link provides the additional benefit of extending the frequency response from 20kHz to 40kHz to ensure more accurate reproduction.

Titanium Dome
11-04-2008, 03:07 PM
In my experience, the L5 is definitely a "sitter" and not a stander. Get your ears level or slightly below 035TiA height and listen away.

The extra height on the L7 makes it easier for the listener to move around, as long as you don't get right on top of them.

One thing you can do is elevate the L5s. Experiment with different heights to see what works in the room. Just a couple of inches makes a difference.

Titanium Dome
11-04-2008, 03:19 PM
Sounds to me like its time for you to set up your L7 Home theatre room!
Or are you better covered with multiple pairs of L5s?

For a couple of years I had an L Series 7.1 system until I got my first Performance Series set up.

Front L: L7
Center: L3
Front R: L7
Side R: L5
Rear R: L7
Side L: L5
Side R: L7
Subs: LE14H-1 based Fosgate Audionics THX pair

L7s did not work well in the L and R side surrounds positions. The woofers were like loose cannons. The L5s worked very well there, especially since they were aimed right at the prime seating area.

The L7s worked well in the rear as a pair, and their extra height was useful in overcoming intermediate objects. They also did fine as fronts, as long as the L3 cabinet was not interfering with the woofers.

Truth be told, the L Series is not really a great HT series since it predates real HT systems by a few years. An L5, L3 and L1 based system with decent subs would probably be better than the set up I had. It was far too much for the room and overpowered the space. When cranked, it was insane, which impressed my neighbors and friends, but also left me feeling unfulfilled.

The Performance Series cured all those things, and I returned the L7s and L5s to stereo duty, where they excel.

BMWCCA
11-04-2008, 03:52 PM
In my experience, the L5 is definitely a "sitter" and not a stander. Get your ears level or slightly below 035TiA height and listen away.

The extra height on the L7 makes it easier for the listener to move around, as long as you don't get right on top of them.

Truth be told, the L Series is not really a great HT series since it predates real HT systems by a few years. An L5, L3 and L1 based system with decent subs would probably be better than the set up I had. It was far too much for the room and overpowered the space. When cranked, it was insane, which impressed my neighbors and friends, but also left me feeling unfulfilled.

The Performance Series cured all those things, and I returned the L7s and L5s to stereo duty, where they excel.I'm happy to say after years reading your L-series posts, I think we are in near-total agreement even to the minutia of height issues with the L5. The only thing I'd disagree on slightly is the amount of importance you place on L7 placement. Sure they benefit from proper placement and perhaps that's what takes them from a good speaker to a great one, but I've yet to find a position that compromised their performance to the extent that I'd ever claim the L5 performed better. I've had them in cramped rooms, up against walls, less than five-feet apart, with the LE120H-1s aimed at a large center mass, and they still make me smile. I'm happy you feel so strongly about their peculiarities as it allowed me to be able to pick up a pair without the market driving the price crazy. ;)

While not an early adopter of the L-series by any stretch, I have that same feeling of "getting it" that I had when I bought my first 4-cylinder BMW sedan back in 1971 when no one could figure out what I found redeeming about its funky boxy look. And, like my BMWs, I'd be happy to have them stay an acquired taste, an achievement for a few discerning enthusiasts to own and enjoy. Somehow BMW blew the small-clique scenario even as somehow JBL continues to shrink their market. At least I'm happy. :thmbsup:

Titanium Dome
11-04-2008, 04:09 PM
In 1981, the L300 was $3000 a pair. According to the CPI inflation calculator, that would have a comparable cost of $5252 in 1997, and it would be comparable to $6760 in 2007.

In 1997, the L7 was $2000 a pair. According to the CPI inflation calculator, that would be comparable to $2698 in 2007.

We currently see L300s going for $2500 to $4500, while L7s sell for $300 to $450 a pair. This represents 84–150% of original value and 37–66% of adjusted value on an L300 pair; it represents 30–45% of original value and 11–17% of adjusted value on the L7 pair.

As an investment, the L300 has proven its ability to retain and even accumulate value, while the L7 has not. In that respect the L300 makes a lot more sense than an L7 if you've got the money to play.

If one looks at sonic return (how it sounds), the equation is less clear, but the participants at the L300/L7 shootout, might be good enough to give a candid answer. If all agree or mostly agree that the L300 has the overall edge in sonic reproduction, then the question--a subjective one--is "By how much?"

Is it twice as good? Then paying $1250 to $2250 a pair for L7s would be justified, though that's not likely to happen when people are basically giving them away.

Three times as good? Then $833 to $1500 for an L7 pair would be reasonable.

Four times as good? Then $625 to $1125 is fair to pay for L7s.

So in economic terms it seems that the L300 would need to be five times the speaker that the L7 is to be selling at its current price points. Remember, we're not factoring in collectibility, components, cabinetry, etc., just sonic return.

This is all to say that the L7 is the bargain of the decade in JBL loudspeakers at current prices. It's clearly undervalued in the market place, while the L300 is overvalued but able to support high prices due to demand and collectibility.

I don't know whether to be happy or sad about this, as I have many L7s and no L300s. I am happy to note that the L300 did not destroy the L7 in the head-to-head comparison. Thanks to all who brought this together and rendered your best judgments on the comparison. We all have a better understanding as a result of your sharing of the experience. :)

opimax
11-04-2008, 06:07 PM
I thought the 4333 were the clear winner. The L7s were 2nd and the 120s 3rd. I was impressed with the hp420s for their size shape and sound. I thought the l20t3 were muddy compared to the L1 but it wasn’t a “bad” mud, added some bass in the right songs.

The other speakers went by very quickly and or I wasn’t focused by this time.
I can’t express how much I really enjoyed the whole event, socializing w/great people was as important as the speaker listening. John was so prepared and seemed so comfortable as host and guide. I enjoyed Phil’s sense of humor and I have been to Heather and Emma’s place more than once and hope to again another time.
Various comments from the posts
I thought the 4333 would have handled the bass a little better when it went low. It just disappeared. It sounded great, no bad noises, just disappeared on the note on the “test CD”. That is the same speaker 2235 in the 380 sub. I don’t think it disappeared on the L7 but was a boomier sound (correct me if I am wrong) that may sound a little better w/a little more power there.
The over compressed tracks sounded fine…for a few seconds then I learned you can have too much f a good thing. It became tiring on the ears I would have thought I would have liked it more that way. It was an interesting tangent.

L5 vs. L7
I always like more bass than avg (somebody will always like more and a majority less) so I would have thought I would go for the L7. BUT I would go with the L5 and a nice sub, think that would be a better approach. Of course if there is no sub involved I would go with the L7
When my brother told he wanted a HT I of course went w/JBL because this board. I went the HLS series(unheard) because I thought that would meet his needs for the price. HE COULDN’T STAND THEM. Came across the L series at EBay and Domes thread here. Got the L5 for the front and then found L7 for less so I moved the L5 to the back. They were only couple hundred more for the L then the HLS total so it was great deal. He is very happy w/a 5.1 w/100 watts around.

The last post by Dome
I don’t think I would be happy w/the l7 knowing there is better out there. The “amount” of better is worth the money from $300 to $2500 to me for my 1 great set of speakers I must have. As long as I have that 1 “great” set whether these were 4333 or something else the l7/l5 would do for anything else

And lastly can’t wait to do it again. Happy to have people over to my place. I am not the director John is or have the toys or space but a large desire to hear different setups and meet /be with great people!

Round 2: 250 vs. 300

Thanks much again
Mark

BMWCCA
11-04-2008, 06:31 PM
One of the first utterance out of Mark's mouth was that he wasn't going to get into "for the price" discussion, and we agreed. It's immaterial when you're trying to find "the best". There were times I liked the L7 and most of the time everyone found the 4333 superior. But sometimes one was more pleasing than the other on a certain piece of music, and that could have been the L7 or the 4333. Heather knows the feeling and said something to the effect that you really need different speakers for different music but we settle on one. Or two! As is often repeated here, this is all about compromises.

What we spent less time on was the 120Ti which really seemed to perform very close to the L7, or maybe equal, once we got it on the ground. But by then we weren't really doing anything scientifically, both may have been underpowered, and we'd heard a lot of music. And some were itching to head home before it got too late.

I'd love to hear the 250Ti, and 240Ti, along with the 120Ti and maybe even the L7 again with enough power. I'd also like to match the 4412A with the 120Ti. So much to do, so little time. So many great speakers. I was just happy to come home still enamored with what I already own. But then I am a bottom-feeder! :applaud:

Fred Sanford
11-04-2008, 07:01 PM
So in economic terms it seems that the L300 would need to be five times the speaker that the L7 is to be selling at its current price points. Remember, we're not factoring in collectibility, components, cabinetry, etc., just sonic return.

This is all to say that the L7 is the bargain of the decade in JBL loudspeakers at current prices. It's clearly undervalued in the market place, while the L300 is overvalued but able to support high prices due to demand and collectibility.

I don't know whether to be happy or sad about this, as I have many L7s and no L300s. I am happy to note that the L300 did not destroy the L7 in the head-to-head comparison. Thanks to all who brought this together and rendered your best judgments on the comparison. We all have a better understanding as a result of your sharing of the experience. :)

An important data point to remember in my case is that I didn't pay for my 4333As. They were beaten pretty badly, abused and neglected, but free. I've put the equivalent of about $600 into them, but I paid for the bulk of that through bartering other gear I had also gotten for free. Realistically, the entire rig we listened to on Sunday has me out of pocket for maybe $200 cash.

Another thing is that while most of the speakers in my house are vintage JBL or Canton, I worked from 2000-2006 designing & installing high-end residential AV systems, so I got to hear a very good modern system pretty much every single day, or at least a few every week. If you don't get into the "for-the-money" discussion, L7s end up in a list of "very good speakers I've heard" and not "great speakers I'm dying to have some day".

I think you HAVE to factor in looks & cabinet layout to some degree, unless you can actually dedicate a room to audio and set it up around the particular speaker's needs. If it's a purely function-before-fashion room I think that might actually be a help for the L7's cause.

My overall opinion was that the L7s struck me as very good speakers, and the 4333As often transcend that and really make me smile like a fool. :o:

je

Fred Sanford
11-04-2008, 07:06 PM
I thought the 4333 would have handled the bass a little better when it went low. It just disappeared. It sounded great, no bad noises, just disappeared on the note on the “test CD”. That is the same speaker 2235 in the 380 sub. I don’t think it disappeared on the L7 but was a boomier sound (correct me if I am wrong) that may sound a little better w/a little more power there.

Thanks much again
Mark

My 4333As currently have 2231As in them. One original to the cabinet, one replaced a few years in. Both re-foamed, and not the best re-foam job I've ever seen. The spiders on both are sagging badly, and I'd guess that they'd been abused quite a bit throughout their lives.

Re-cones with 2235 cones would be an improvement, along with a re-gauss of the mags. Swapping entirely for 2235Hs would be another approach.

To be fair, I think room placement might have helped both the 4333As and the L7s to some degree in the bass handling department. Yes, the L7s went lower, but a bit less definition to those low notes. The 4333As simply rolled off at a distinct point (you know, right where my sub usually takes over!). No, I didn't leave the 100Hz crossover on.

je

Fred Sanford
11-04-2008, 07:21 PM
One of the first utterance out of Mark's mouth was that he wasn't going to get into "for the price" discussion, and we agreed. It's immaterial when you're trying to find "the best". There were times I liked the L7 and most of the time everyone found the 4333 superior. But sometimes one was more pleasing than the other on a certain piece of music, and that could have been the L7 or the 4333. Heather knows the feeling and said something to the effect that you really need different speakers for different music but we settle on one. Or two! As is often repeated here, this is all about compromises.

...one good reason why I keep two distinct systems in that room...


What we spent less time on was the 120Ti which really seemed to perform very close to the L7, or maybe equal, once we got it on the ground. But by then we weren't really doing anything scientifically, both may have been underpowered, and we'd heard a lot of music. And some were itching to head home before it got too late.

I don't know that anything we listened to was really underpowered for the levels we were listening at, but that's just my opinion. No great affinity or loyalty for the Adcoms in particular, I just don't think they were being stressed. If anything, we probably should have bypassed preamps entirely at least once, to see if CD --> amp might have opened up the high end to some degree. Don't get me wrong, though, I do want to hear the L7s bi-amped with the Crowns. I want to hear the 4333As bi-amped with my Yamaha P2100s, too- one bridged for each 15", and one in stereo for the mids/highs. Now you're talking. Do-over! Bring over that giant rack from your SAE gear and give me a week to wire it all up!

I had a worry that if we were too scattershot, we'd have ended up with nothing actually accomplished. I tried to keep us planted on the L7/4333A thing to a degree. I'd repaired and tested a client's 240Tis in the past, and actually that same customer has 4412As that I've listened to quite a bit as well (two different homes, though).

If you're curious, the 4412As live here:

http://www.kljarch.com/projects/townhouses/w11.html

...and the 240Tis live here:

http://www.kljarch.com/projects/beachhouses/sagaponack.html


I'd love to hear the 250Ti, and 240Ti, along with the 120Ti and maybe even the L7 again with enough power. I'd also like to match the 4412A with the 120Ti. So much to do, so little time. So many great speakers. I was just happy to come home still enamored with what I already own. But then I am a bottom-feeder! :applaud:

Next summer, we line 'em all up on the front porch & listen to them from Skyline Drive.

je

opimax
11-04-2008, 07:47 PM
i hope I didn't make anyone defenseive here not my desire at all, honest but appreciative :D

I have older Adcoms no problem w/them. There is just something about a gazillion watt amp even at low volumes makes some speakers sing a little better.

I would be happy to have people over for TI comparisons and to other speakers. Phil (John or anybody)can get here real early for his wiring /set up w/any equipment he would like to bring. Being a bachalor (even more so than I would like currently)no WAF issues, a mess can be left for days :) :)

I thought the 120 sounded good and close to the L7 but they needed the boundry reenforcement and therefore more placement depndant than the l7, that surprised me.

I knew you had said the 4333 were not completed and we there are all bottom feeders but I was just surprised they way they stopped. I must also say I am the least experienced w/stereo equipment so I am easiest to surprise, miss or just not get something

I walked away from the meet w/enough data to make an informred opinion so I thought we stayed on track enough, others may go the other way.I enjoy the social event as much. Normally I am the one trying to keep things on tracjk and was glad to be a distraction, sorry:p

I am no sure I want to compare any more speakers w/horns I may have to redo my whole system at this rate

Mark

hjames
11-04-2008, 08:11 PM
...one good reason why I keep two distinct systems in that room...


Don't get me wrong, though, I do want to hear the L7s bi-amped with the Crowns. I want to hear the 4333As bi-amped with my Yamaha P2100s, too- one bridged for each 15", and one in stereo for the mids/highs. Now you're talking. Do-over! Bring over that giant rack from your SAE gear and give me a week to wire it all up!


Next summer, we line 'em all up on the front porch & listen to them from Skyline Drive.

je

Give me a heads-up and I'll bring my biamp rack ...
ASHLY XR 1001; JBL/UREI 6230; JBL/UREI 6260

Fred Sanford
11-04-2008, 08:22 PM
Give me a heads-up and I'll bring my biamp rack ...
ASHLY XR 1001; JBL/UREI 6230; JBL/UREI 6260

That'll do, there's another 6260 here as well...:applaud:

je

Fred Sanford
11-04-2008, 08:38 PM
i hope I didn't make anyone defenseive here not my desire at all, honest but appreciative :D

I have older Adcoms no problem w/them. There is just something about a gazillion watt amp even at low volumes makes some speakers sing a little better.

No problem here, I hear what you're saying. We were balancing lows vs. highs with the bi-amping by ear, and also situated the L7s mostly by convenience. Power might have made a difference, but I think actual testing & adjusting might have been a more precise approach to use, at least initially.



I would be happy to have people over for TI comparisons and to other speakers. Phil (John or anybody)can get here real early for his wiring /set up w/any equipment he would like to bring. Being a bachalor (even more so than I would like currently)no WAF issues, a mess can be left for days :) :)

I thought the 120 sounded good and close to the L7 but they needed the boundry reenforcement and therefore more placement depndant than the l7, that surprised me.


Unfortunately, I barely stepped in front of the 120Tis while they were running, and don't remember much detail about them...but like I said, I'd heard the 240Tis in the past.

Being the planner/manager that I am, I'd pre-think the switching system to work better. Either something like the ProCo speaker level switcher (if nothing's bi-amped) or one in/two out line level switching (mixer board & subgroups?).



I knew you had said the 4333 were not completed and we there are all bottom feeders but I was just surprised they way they stopped. I must also say I am the least experienced w/stereo equipment so I am easiest to surprise, miss or just not get something

I walked away from the meet w/enough data to make an informred opinion so I thought we stayed on track enough, others may go the other way.I enjoy the social event as much. Normally I am the one trying to keep things on tracjk and was glad to be a distraction, sorry:p


Loved the social aspect, I think we just needed more time. The commute made it tough to stretch things out.



I am no sure I want to compare any more speakers w/horns I may have to redo my whole system at this rate

Mark


Yeah, gotta watch that...could get expensive! ;)

je

Doc Mark
11-04-2008, 08:57 PM
Hello, Friends,

Well, probably more than a little predictably, I am going to crawl out on a very narrow limb, and suggest that Fred consider replacing the woofers in his 4333's with some 2235H's. That's what our L300's have, and though I do want to play with a really good subwoofer, for most stuff the L300's with the 2235H's, have more than enough bass!! Some might consider it "too much" bass, but I figure those folks are probably Bose lovers!! ;):D

Since the L300's are supposed to be 3db down at around 35HZ, I've goosed our EQ at 31HZ in order to boost up the bottom end, and personally, I love the sound I'm getting. If I didn't already have the 2242HPL, with which to experiment as a subwoofer, both Sweet Bride and I could be very happy with the bass from the L300's. You never really get the thought that they are "running out of gas" in regards to bass response, unless you're talking about the extreme bottom end that you only occasionally need in your system. For what it's worth.... Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

BMWCCA
11-04-2008, 11:05 PM
No, I didn't leave the 100Hz crossover on. :D

Hell, I'd do the whole thing over again exactly the same way just for the fun of it. I'd even go for a listening party without a speaker comparison just to share some good tunes.

Don't laugh; I've played my 030s off a porch and listened to them from the Blue Ridge Mountains. Not far from that Jeep trail that crosses over the ridge to JE's house. Back in my youth. And yes, there may have been drugs involved.

No, I don't think we were taxing the Adcoms even a little bit. But I can remember how my eyes had a hard time believing my ears when I hooked up a Crown DC300A-II to my 030s. I haven't used the D150A-IIs since. Same with the PS-400, I've got two PS-200s now, one hooked to the L20Ts and the other still sitting in the box it came back from Crown in after a complete refurb. It's like octane on a high-compression car with a knock sensor: The better the gas, the better the performance. Not that I thought anything sounded bad before, or with the Adcoms. It would be just another data point we didn't have time to explore.

So, when do we invade Opimax's house?

Fred Sanford
11-05-2008, 05:11 AM
Hello, Friends,

Well, probably more than a little predictably, I am going to crawl out on a very narrow limb, and suggest that Fred consider replacing the woofers in his 4333's with some 2235H's. That's what our L300's have, and though I do want to play with a really good subwoofer, for most stuff the L300's with the 2235H's, have more than enough bass!! Some might consider it "too much" bass, but I figure those folks are probably Bose lovers!! ;):D

Since the L300's are supposed to be 3db down at around 35HZ, I've goosed our EQ at 31HZ in order to boost up the bottom end, and personally, I love the sound I'm getting. If I didn't already have the 2242HPL, with which to experiment as a subwoofer, both Sweet Bride and I could be very happy with the bass from the L300's. You never really get the thought that they are "running out of gas" in regards to bass response, unless you're talking about the extreme bottom end that you only occasionally need in your system. For what it's worth.... Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

Maybe if I get industrious I'll check the 15s range with a tone generator & SPL meter, with & without my usual sub setup.

The 2231 --> 2235 upgrade is on the list, but other things are higher on the list...silly things like gutters and gravel driveways. At this point, the sub setup makes the issues pretty much invisible, so I'm biding my time.

je

hjames
11-05-2008, 05:13 AM
Maybe if I get industrious I'll check the 15s range with a tone generator & SPL meter, with & without my usual sub setup.

The 2231 --> 2235 upgrade is on the list, but other things are higher on the list...silly things like gutters and gravel driveways. At this point, the sub setup makes the issues pretty much invisible, so I'm biding my time.

je

Fred - its sounds quite nice with the sub!
I'm sure its real enjoyable to listen to, or when you watch a film!
Besides, its a very pretty house in a gorgeous part of the state - what a fine view!

Fred Sanford
11-05-2008, 05:14 AM
:D

Hell, I'd do the whole thing over again exactly the same way just for the fun of it. I'd even go for a listening party without a speaker comparison just to share some good tunes.

Exactly.


It would be just another data point we didn't have time to explore.

Exactly.

je

Fred Sanford
11-05-2008, 05:15 AM
Fred - its sounds quite nice with the sub!
I'm sure its real enjoyable to listen to, or when you watch a film!
Besides, its a very pretty house in a gorgeous part of the state - what a fine view!

You kids didn't hear the 4333As with the sub at all, did you? I don't think so- only the Cantons. Did I have the system bi-amped and sub-assisted last time you had visited?

je

hjames
11-05-2008, 05:57 AM
You kids didn't hear the 4333As with the sub at all, did you? I don't think so- only the Cantons. Did I have the system bi-amped and sub-assisted last time you had visited?

je
I thought it was working when I came by in the spring ...

Maybe we all need to buy that Tempest CD so we can compare all our speakers with the same material ...
(I already ordered a copy for that low low note!)

Its so boring to check everything out with Steely Dan any more :applaud:

opimax
11-05-2008, 06:05 AM
the 4333 sounded great! I was just surprised. In my house my b460 won't go nearly as low as the 12" Velodyne sub I use with it. If it did I would keep the whole room JBL but what I have needs it so it is there.

Also the only change(nit picks) I would make for next time is getting more sleep the day before and a different test disc ...in addition to the last one now that we have the gold standard in use
:applaud::applaud:

Mark

Oh and have dessert 1st

Heather was responding at the same time...the infamous test disc, lol

Doc Mark
11-05-2008, 07:25 AM
Good Morning, All,

I have very much enjoyed this entire thread, and look forward to more LH members getting together like this, to test systems, share some fun, food, and a fine time of friendship!! Again, well done, Friends!!

OK, now, where does one find this "Tempest test CD", and of what is it comprised? Sounds (no pun intended) like something that all of us need, indeed!! I'm ready!! ;):D:applaud: Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

P.S. Fred, if we lived closer, I'd bring my 2235H's over for you to play with, and then you could see if you liked them, or not. Hopefully, some of our friends on your side of the US might have a pair they could loan out for a bit. I would love to hear your thoughts on any and all differences in sound between the 2231A's and the 2235H's!

Regis
11-05-2008, 09:13 AM
whatever you like - sometimes the treat is just playing something in surround sound ...
I had to check when I ordered that Fourplay CD that I didn't order the DVD-Audio version ... there were a lot of good reviews of that, but I wanted the regular version (Thanks again for demoing that album for us!)

Heather, I just saw Fourplay just a couple of weeks ago at the Lancaster Performing Arts Center. My first time seeing them live and it was great! I am a big Bob James fan and he didn't disappoint. Larry Carlton was excellent as well and he played a very restrained, but highly dynamic electric guitar.

Oddly enough, I found that my home system sounded just about as good as the live performance, so I left with a nice warm fuzzy, knowing that fact.:D

hjames
11-05-2008, 09:25 AM
Also the only change(nit picks) I would make for next time is getting more sleep the day before and a different test disc ...in addition to the last one now that we have the gold standard in use
:applaud::applaud:

Mark

Oh and have dessert 1stHeather was responding at the same time...the infamous test disc, lol

For those who want to know ...
I believe it was track 6 - maybe 40 seconds in, the bass drifts downward as the fiddles come in.

Got my copy ordered the next day!

http://www.amazon.com/Double-Cross-Tempest/dp/B000E6EJMA/
(its REALLY a good price as a used CD ...)

opimax
11-05-2008, 10:08 AM
on ebay occaisionally, .99 !!!!

It is a nice cd of Celtic rock but it isn't anything special. I liked it, like the bass line in track 6 and brought it w/me, only heard that song 2-3 times , hadn't even heard the whole cd when I went there. It was a 1/2 joke how I was being pushy...but we did use it to compare bass guitar

Mark

toddalin
11-05-2008, 10:30 AM
Maybe if I get industrious I'll check the 15s range with a tone generator & SPL meter, with & without my usual sub setup.

The 2231 --> 2235 upgrade is on the list, but other things are higher on the list...silly things like gutters and gravel driveways. At this point, the sub setup makes the issues pretty much invisible, so I'm biding my time.

je


You may not like the change. :( You may find that you loose some of the lower midrange (600-800 Hz) and IMO this has a very detrimental effect on the male voice.

I've never been all that happy with this range on my AlNiCo 2205s reconed as 2235s. (Yes, these were totally reconed and re-maged (twice) and in accordance with WT-2 check out just like new 2235s.)

I've been fighting with this for ~2 years now since the recones/remags. I find the cure is to put a resistor in series with the woofer to extend the "Q" but this reduces its overall output. (I would have liked to tried these without the mass ring first.)

hjames
11-05-2008, 10:36 AM
You may not like the change. :( You may find that you loose some of the lower midrange (600-800 Hz) and IMO this has a very detrimental effect on the male voice.

I've never been all that happy with this range on my AlNiCo 2205s reconed as 2235s. (Yes, these were totally reconed and re-maged (twice) and in accordance with WT-2 check out just like new 2235s.)

I've been fighting with this for ~2 years now since the recones/remags. I find the cure is to put a resistor in series with the woofer to extend the "Q" but this reduces its overall output. (I would have liked to tried these without the mass ring first.)

Well, I have 2234s in my L200 3 ways, and like the sound!
Started with the 2215s (from the old 4320s I salvaged parts from) then dropped in 2235s, then swapped them into the 4341s and used the 2234s they came with in the 3 ways "L200s" ...
I probably ought to haul them southwest whenever we have the next listening party ...

Fred Sanford
11-05-2008, 11:46 AM
I thought it was working when I came by in the spring ...

Maybe we all need to buy that Tempest CD so we can compare all our speakers with the same material ...
(I already ordered a copy for that low low note!)

Its so boring to check everything out with Steely Dan any more :applaud:

I honestly don't remember what the configuration was at that time.

Maybe I need to buy a 5-string bass guitar instead...

je

Fred Sanford
11-05-2008, 11:55 AM
the 4333 sounded great! I was just surprised. In my house my b460 won't go nearly as low as the 12" Velodyne sub I use with it. If it did I would keep the whole room JBL but what I have needs it so it is there.

Also the only change(nit picks) I would make for next time is getting more sleep the day before and a different test disc ...in addition to the last one now that we have the gold standard in use
:applaud::applaud:

Mark

Oh and have dessert 1st

Heather was responding at the same time...the infamous test disc, lol

Dessert first for sure. Thanks for the cookies & brownies, they were really good!

There is a value to having familiar music as the test tunes, but we didn't know each other's music collections.

There's also some value in using unfamiliar music, too.

Maybe next time it's some kind of democracy, like each of us picks 3 tunes- then we have 12 songs for all the candidates.

My dig about the Tempest test disc is kind of a nod to the personality dynamic...at first, we were all sort of cautious & polite, feeling the situation out. Then, at some point, Mark declared something about his sarcastic/obnoxious nature being held back for far too long, and he had to let his true self shine. :D:applaud: Not long after that he declared that he'd only brought one disc, and dammit he was going to hear it on every system, with every single speaker. I think he was actually surprised when we dutifully carried out his wishes. :hmm:

All good...

je

BMWCCA
11-05-2008, 03:13 PM
Interesting side note:

I just received—today—another Soundcraftsmen Pro-Control-Four pre-amp (identical to the one that never made it out of the van for our comparison) and a matching Pro-Power-Four power amp (see this (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=226863#post226863) post), and I hooked them up to make sure they were working properly. The amp uses a string of LEDs to indicate power up to 400-watts at 8-ohms, with red-line at 200. In playing the Lyle Lovett (a BMW motorcycle dealer himself) cut "She's Already Made Up Her Mind" off our event demo CD, at about the same level we hit in John's living room, the L7s were just barely lighting the 10-watt LED on the 8-ohm scale at the highest peak in the cut. I'm thinking we had plenty of headroom with the Advents. But then how accurate are these silly metering-type thingies?

I can tell you, the L7s were thumpin'!!

JBLAddict
11-06-2008, 10:56 AM
Another thing is that while most of the speakers in my house are vintage JBL or Canton, I worked from 2000-2006 designing & installing high-end residential AV systems, so I got to hear a very good modern system pretty much every single day, or at least a few every week. If you don't get into the "for-the-money" discussion, L7s end up in a list of "very good speakers I've heard" and not "great speakers I'm dying to have some day".

je

just out of curiosity, any particular speakers during your installations, that come to mind in the "great one's dying to have" category?

Fred Sanford
11-06-2008, 01:14 PM
just out of curiosity, any particular speakers during your installations, that come to mind in the "great one's dying to have" category?

I've liked a lot of the Canton, Vienna Acoustics, Wilson, Martin Logan, B&W, Monitor Audio, JBL Synthesis, McIntosh, Sonus Faber, Genelec...I'm sure I'm forgetting some, but I never got caught up in the model names/numbers too much since we were always changing which products we were selling, and the more high $$$ toys were mostly on other manager's installations (or service calls) anyway. I only handled the 'smaller' systems, ~$100,000 - ~$250,000 generally. I knew I'd never be owning those models, anyway, so I didn't spend a lot of time dreaming about them. I just had to keep track of what I'd spec'd/sold, or anything a client was bringing in of their own.

Probably a boring answer, sorry...

je

Titanium Dome
11-06-2008, 06:43 PM
Zz-z-z-z-z-z-z-zzzz :snore:

SEAWOLF97
11-28-2008, 09:13 PM
since L7's seem to be big "bang for the buck" anymore,,,but I cant handle the burnt ash look, I wonder .....?

what about dying the grey grills and LF covers ---BLACK

then..........

veneer over the black ash factory finish with cherry or mahogany ???

bet it mite look downright OK......:)



or....

find a way to strip the black veneer and re-stain ?

BMWCCA
11-28-2008, 09:51 PM
The grilles are already black. Well, almost, but maybe not quite as black as my 4412As. Don't know what it takes to strip the veneer finish since it has a strange feel (maybe latex?) and the veneer is quite open grain. The big problem would be the baffle surface which extends down to the floor in front. It has no woodgrain to it and could be a Masonite-type material, it's hard to tell. Whatever it is it appears to be just painted semi-flat black. There's also a fine groove or bead that separates the sides from the baffle surface making it look like the entire baffle surface (the whole front) is inset into the box but overlaps the sides about 4-5mm. The L5s have the same "bead" effect but the entire front is covered in two speaker grille sections so there's no blank surface to figure out.

The black doesn't bother me, in fact the details in it are pretty endearing, actually. But then I thought these were pretty cool-looking, too, when I bought my first one in 1971:

http://www.2002registry.com/knowBMW.jpg

BMWCCA
11-28-2008, 10:04 PM
I have a good friend who's building a huge, timber-frame, three-story "garage". The lower floor is the work area with 12' ceilings and room to easily park at least six cars. I'm thinking about "flying" a pair of L7s about six-to-eight-feet up, HFs pointing inwards and LE120H-1s aiming down. I can't think of a better $200 garage speaker, and I just happen to have a spare pair. Of course I can't think of a better $1000 listening-room speaker, either. :hmm:

BMWCCA
11-28-2008, 10:40 PM
Looks like someone attempted a piano-black treatment on these L7s:

JBL L7 Wonderful Sounding Speakers Shiny Black In Excellent Condition. - $499 (Sherman Oaks)

Reply to: [email protected] [? (http://www.craigslist.org/about/help/replying_to_posts)]
Date: 2008-11-28, 8:38AM PST


JBL L7 Speakers In Excellent Condition.

These Speakers Are One Of JBL's Best And They Are In Excellent Working & Cosmetic Condition.All The Drivers Are In Perfect Working Condition And Sound Beautiful.The Cabinets Have A Beautiful Glossy Shine To Them. The Grill Front & Side Covers Are In Perfect Condition Without Any Holes,Tears Or Damages.

They Were Made Between The Years Of 1991 - 1997 And Sold For $2000.00 A Pair.

Each Speaker Consists Of:
12" Side Firing Woofer (Brand New Foam Surround)
8" Midbass Driver (Rubber Surround)
5" Midrange Driver (Rubber Surround)
1" Titanium Tweeter.

Leave Your Phone Number And I Will Call You Back.
http://images.craigslist.org/1fa12b1473n73m23pe8bq184e8705f9a812f6.jpg http://images.craigslist.org/1f412c1gb3k43md3pa8bqf4507eeb52bb1646.jpg http://images.craigslist.org/1181f41253m93p33lb8bq401ab9777fc71a04.jpg http://images.craigslist.org/1f71431383nc3pc3l18bq779b976a97a517f5.jpg

SEAWOLF97
11-28-2008, 11:16 PM
Looks like someone attempted a piano-black treatment on these L7s:

I was surfing and found piano black L80T's ...the page said they were specialty made for the European market by JBL , mebbe those L7's too ??

BMWCCA
11-29-2008, 08:11 AM
I'm contemplating whether or not they could have been made by JBL for the home (California) market at some point. I don't believe the L7 and the rest of the series were ever sold in Europe, but then what do I know. Seems more believable that JBL might have made some in piano black as a marketing test, or for specific individuals. Hard to tell from the pics but they could be legit. I suppose LH member CHagen7 (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/member.php?u=8525) might know the answer, but I haven't seen him around since his posts to T-dome's epic L-series thread well over a year ago. Chris Hagen! You still around?

In that same thread, a member from Europe posted pics of his newly-acquired L7s and they do look a bit shinier than what we're used to in this country: http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=223277&postcount=187 (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=223277&postcount=187)
Though they're nowhere near as shiny as the ones I posted up above this post.

Hey Seawolf, did you see the custom L7s I posted here (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=227046&postcount=197)?

Titanium Dome
11-29-2008, 09:01 AM
Thanks for the tip on the CL posting. I'll grab that listing and put it in the L Series thread for posterity.

hjames
11-29-2008, 09:10 AM
So - where are the pictures of a black Piano L300 (or piano black 4333) to go with this new direction of the thread?

BMWCCA
11-29-2008, 09:22 AM
(Edit: T-dome has posted the photos here: http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=229799&postcount=210 )

and I'll archive one the photos for when the ad disappears:

Titanium Dome
11-29-2008, 09:31 AM
So - where are the pictures of a black Piano L300 (or piano black 4333) to go with this new direction of the thread?

Heather

This is as close as we can (or would want to) get. ;)

http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=20527

JBLAddict
11-29-2008, 11:10 AM
I've given thought to going after these (BMW's comments of the L7 being the "grown up in the family" compared to the L5 really struck a chord every time I listen to my L5s thinking about the added bass impact), didn't realize that the finish looked unusually shiny?

btw, these L5s come with some components for $300.....don't know if the HK AR30 is decent, couldn't find it on the web....

http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/ele/930269246.html

John W
11-29-2008, 11:12 AM
Here is a pair of L7's I turned into a 3-way after using the 708s for a different project. They're modeled after the Europe only L-90s and use the upper section of the stock L7 crossover, after removing a couple parts to allow the woofers to run as low as possible. They sound great.

4313B
11-29-2008, 11:16 AM
Here is a pair of L7's I turned into a 3-way after using the 708s for a different project. They're modeled after the Europe only L-90s and use the upper section of the stock L7 crossover, after removing a couple parts to allow the woofers to run as low as possible. They sound great.Nice! :yes:

We need to get you more drivers for more projects dude! This place is a wasteland without you.

BMWCCA
11-29-2008, 10:24 PM
I've given thought to going after these (BMW's comments of the L7 being the "grown up in the family" compared to the L5 really struck a chord every time I listen to my L5s thinking about the added bass impact), didn't realize that the finish looked unusually shiny?Here's another pair close to you that don't look quite as "shiny".

http://ebayitem.com/220320502779

Titanium Dome
11-30-2008, 12:08 AM
Very nice.

(I'll move the pics and your comment over to the L Series thread for safekeeping.)

BMWCCA
11-30-2008, 08:08 AM
Here is a pair of L7's I turned into a 3-way after using the 708s for a different project. They're modeled after the Europe only L-90s and use the upper section of the stock L7 crossover, after removing a couple parts to allow the woofers to run as low as possible. They sound great.Very beautiful and beautifully done, as well. How do they compare to other JBL 3-ways with which you're familiar?

And I'd be even more impressed if you told me you'd built the cabinets they're sitting on, too! :applaud:

BMWCCA
12-01-2008, 04:03 PM
Here's another pair close to you that don't look quite as "shiny".

http://ebayitem.com/220320502779I'm embarrassed to type how little they went for. The only consolation would be that someone here got a great deal! Someday people will understand. I bet they'll blow away those "L400" prototypes in some other thread! ;)

scott fitlin
08-09-2010, 12:54 PM
I find it ironic sometimes, when I think about possibly upgrading speakers someday, I realise that about 75% of the music I listen to was recorded on monitors that well predate my 4345's!

It kinda puts things into a different perpective.I agree completely with this statement. IMHO, and I really mean this, yesterdays music sounds so very good on the JBL,s and ALTEC,s of the same period.


:D