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Royster
09-11-2008, 03:27 AM
Greetings from Hong Kong,

Let me preface my post by saying - the sheer amount of knowledge, passion and creativity demonstrated in the forum deserves :applaud::applaud::applaud:.

Judging from the pics of all the DIY masterpieces, I have to say your creations has left me awe-strucked.

Having spent most of my childhood in a JBL-using household (my granddad used a pair of L36s until he passed), I have finally gotten off a decade of audiofool merry-go-round, stopped tinkering around with overpriced "mini-monitors", and settled down with a pair of 4425s. :D

After almost a month of pouring through and generally drooling over this forum, I have collected my hopefully "not dumb" queries to hopefully learn more about JBL and spark some dialogue amongst you gurus out there.

Being boring with 2 left hands and an aversion to sharp objects, I hope that in the near future, I would have sufficient space and funds to commission a 434x "clone", therefore my questions would mainly be geared towards the "whys and whynots" of your creative/technical decisions.

Questions to follow...

Royster
09-11-2008, 08:26 AM
Here goes...

1) Have anyone attempted to use alternative materials to construct the enclosure, i.e. less resonant materials like marine ply, "modern" composite materials (i.e. constrained layer damping), tension rods @ fore and aft baffle, etc.

2) The baffle, in light of the large surface area, could damped aluminum sheets, segmented baffle be used instead the more resonant MDF?

3) would flush mounting the baffle improve dispersion characteristics and phase coherence? This point is directly inspired by what Harbeth had done with their BBC "LS" monitors replacements. (www.harbeth.co.uk, http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/viewpoint/0808/nearfield21.htm)

4) driver mounting, assuming that the current mounting method was a choice based on convenience (replacing drivers on location etc), would flush mounting ALL drivers also reduce diffraction effects. Again an idea nicked from BBC school, the rear mounting of drivers to the front baffle.

5) "tighter" integration between the drivers = improved nearfield coherence?

6) external x-overs, passive or active, taking passive components out of the hostile, vibration prone innards of a speaker. Moving the L-pads and xover to an external box, using "high quality" pots etc.

7) could the xover of the 434X series be "time aligned"?

8) alternative materials for the "lenses"? wood? acrylic? carbon fibre? fibre glass?

9) Ports, non-resonant ports? (I have seen designers use damped PVC, acrylic, wood, alu, even sorbothane based/encased polymer.)

10) flared ports to address turbulence?

11) bracing plus damping...that is probably over-engineering, but with you are making your own perfect JBLs, is that worthwhile?

12) Xovers, with current technology, would a complete overhaul of the xover – with the target being to the old one but simplified – result in better efficency and even less artifacts?

13) Resonance control @ the rear of the drivers?

14) adding assymmetrical faces to the interior of the enclousure break up standing waves?

now some generic questions...

15) Is there a technical reason for JBL to engineer their woofers to work with foam, esp. when it is clearly unstable. Most other types of surrounds, like pleated cloth or butyl rubber, have proved their durability, any reason why JBL has stayed with foam?

16) Has anyone tried adapting the Charged Coupled Network for use with the 4425, is there a schematic for those interested?

17) Is there a "drop-in" new replacement model for the 4425 woofers, for those not wishing to wait on eBay? (i.e. the one being used for 4428s?)

18) If I remember correctly, Don mentioned that Greg Timbers informed him that the 4338, and 4348 were designed with feedback from Harman Japan, could any elaborate, what type of concessions/design decisions were made which, if left to his own devices, Mr. Timbers would not make?

for those interested, this is a fascinating interview for the methodology and process of one designer. Sure, it seems like his ego is the size of an Altec A6 but beyond the facade, he has some interesting ideas about speaker design.

http://www.stereophile.com/interviews/508int/index.html

that's all for now...hope you guys are not tired of my questions? :blink:

Sorry, but I am eagerly awaiting your feedback.

I am not worthy! :slink:

Mr. Widget
09-11-2008, 08:47 AM
Sure, it seems like his ego is the size of an Altec A6 but beyond the facade, he has some interesting ideas about speaker design.

http://www.stereophile.com/interviews/508int/index.html:D

He is a very opinionated man, and in private conversations with him he'll tell you why every speaker on the planet (other than his) suck, but that said, his speakers do not suck. They are not perfect, but they are all quite good.

As far as your myriad of questions... yes, you could implement your array of suggested improvements and likely make the speakers better. To do so and actually end up with a superior system will take a lot of R&D. You can't just start throwing modern ideas at a 30 year old design. If you go this route you will end up with a system that is no longer a 43XX, but rather a new system with 43XX drivers.


Widget

Royster
09-11-2008, 11:59 PM
yes, you could implement your array of suggested improvements and likely make the speakers better. To do so and actually end up with a superior system will take a lot of R&D. You can't just start throwing modern ideas at a 30 year old design. If you go this route you will end up with a system that is no longer a 43XX, but rather a new system with 43XX drivers.
Widget

Thanks for your response! Besides the xovers, I would assume that reinforcing the baffles, plush mounting the front baffles/drivers etc would be considered as "tweaks" and not overhauls.

I suspect one of the main reasons for the "diffused" wall of sound/imprecise imaging has alot to do with the "lips" of the enclosure.

I would say that the 4343/4/5 I have heard in the past are overachievers in all areas but the one above.

In fact, the only speakers I have heard that sounded as "alive" as big JBLs were the Avant Garde Duo Mezzo, Wilson Sophia and Vivid's Giya, all oof which costs significantly more than these classics...

Mr. Widget
09-12-2008, 12:33 AM
I suspect one of the main reasons for the "diffused" wall of sound/imprecise imaging has alot to do with the "lips" of the enclosure.I really do not think so. I have been messing around with these systems and variations thereof on and off for decades. There is a laundry list of reasons why they create a diffuse wall of sound. Interestingly it seems that most participants of this forum do not mind this aspect of them...

One aspect of these systems is that unlike dome based systems, placing acoustic foam or felt on the baffles, radiusing the baffles' edges etc. has very little effect.

I am afraid that if you really want an "audiophile" system's imagining and the lively dynamics of a system like a 43XX, you will have a tough time coming up with a solution that isn't quite costly. If you do, let me know. :D

Some will say that if you look at a JBL 44XX system you will find superior imaging due to their "time alignment", controlled directivity, and baffle design. In my opinion, while they do image differently than the 43XX series, I didn't find audio nirvana there either.


Widget

Royster
09-12-2008, 12:59 AM
Mr Widget,

That is most enlightening. I am not a fan of pinpoint imaging, but I am still undecided between whether I enjoy having the musicians in my room (like the JBLs) vs me in their room (as in "conventional" hifi designs).

I find the scale and "aliveness" of the JBL most addictive, but having a whole Funkadellic crew in my small room is a little intimidating :o:.

Royster
09-12-2008, 01:27 AM
I am afraid that if you really want an "audiophile" system's imagining and the lively dynamics of a system like a 43XX, you will have a tough time coming up with a solution that isn't quite costly. If you do, let me know.

Should you be able to find a dealer nearby your area, I would be most interested in your impressions of Reference 3a's Grand Veena and Veena.

http://www.reference3a.com/grandveena.htm

I heard them at a show and they seem to do quite a few things right for a few grand less that any Wilsons, let alone Magico.

That said, in Hong Kong at least, a decent condition 4343 or 4344 is still only 60% of the GV's cost, and looks better too, imho.

Ian Mackenzie
09-12-2008, 03:25 AM
A lot of the points you raised have been tried.

G.T has elaborated in several posts pointers to where meaningful improvements can be made.

The whole question over imaging is to use a term a massive flood plain of issues none of which can easily be solved without other problems emerging.

In the context of a nearly ideal room the 43XX and 44XX image in some respects quite well.

However they lack depth and the integration of the mid cone to the horn is totally jacked on the 43XX while the bottom end of the 44XX horn is coarse sounding.

They are what they are. Tools of trade for sound engineers and not home audiophile loudspeakers.

A shovel is a shovel and not a kitchen carving knife

To make a better loudspeaker you need to start with a clean sheet of paper. The K2 series are better by design.

There are more recent JBL Pro designs like the LSR and even the smaller 4208 that have better imaging properties.

These smaller systems however do not have the effortless dynamic qualities of the larger systems.

Chas
09-12-2008, 08:41 AM
Interestingly it seems that most participants of this forum do not mind this aspect of them...
Widget


:yes: Well put, Widget! It's a minor tradeoff, IMHO. My take is that the best one should do with the 434X series is to simply apply modern L-R crossover technology toward biamping, invest in premium quality passive crossover components (or CC with at least, good stuff) and use a high quality selectronics path for the high pass side where differences are easily audible after a serious upgrade. Of course, a sprinkling of TAD CD technology is the icing on the cake, too.:D

Having done all those things, my 4345's are damned nice today, relative to more modern hi fi stuff - and, they still posses all the virtues that they were known for, years ago.

Chas
09-12-2008, 03:43 PM
Ian, I agree. The 434X route is certainly a challenge as you know better than most, here. Depends how far he wants to go. None of the stuff I mention is really easy or offering guaranteed results.

Robh3606
09-12-2008, 05:24 PM
Hello Royster

Well I will tell you what I did with the 4344 clone I built

Went with an offset baffle arrangement with the woofer, midbass and midrange all in line.

Built them for biamp only.

Using aguaplas damped 2425 diaphragm.

Ian built the crossovers and used Hovland capacitors.

As far as imaging and integration I think they are not at all bad but will not give you pin point imaging. If you set them up like mini-monitors as in an equilateral triangle toed in they can do quite well.

Pin point imaging is not at the top of my hit list because it's simply does not sound natural to me. Whenever I hear a real acoustic guitar it's never pin point imaged. At least not for me. Same thing with vocals. Maybe others have different experiences.

Rob:)

Chas
09-12-2008, 09:02 PM
Imaging is in the ear of the beholder. Despite what the high end folks say, it is inherent to the recording, not the playback mechanism. Need more be said....?

Mr. Widget
09-12-2008, 10:15 PM
Imaging is in the ear of the beholder.:yes:


Despite what the high end folks say, it is inherent to the recording,....:yes:


...not the playback mechanism.:no:


Need more be said....?:argue:


Widget

Royster
09-13-2008, 05:41 AM
Hi all,


A lot of the points you raised have been tried.

G.T has elaborated in several posts pointers to where meaningful improvements can be made.


I have now read Mr. Timbers' contributions to the forum, it is most informative.

They are what they are. Tools of trade for sound engineers and not home audiophile loudspeakers.

A shovel is a shovel and not a kitchen carving knife

Indeed they are what they are, Just like people who admires amps like Dynaco ST70 or Leak, it was never my intention to miscommunicate that I think there is something wrong with the 43XX, just the extent of tweaking/tinkering that might positively affect the sound. A shovel could have an ebony handle, yet still be a shovel :o:


Having done all those things, my 4345's are damned nice today, relative to more modern hi fi stuff - and, they still posses all the virtues that they were known for, years ago.

I would most definitely imagine so! However, I have only heard a stock pair of 4344.




I agree and if our new friend spends a bit more time reading he will learn most if not all the answers to his questions.

Go to the JBL Library and have a read.

I am indeed doing so, having just discovered this site and reading about your experiences, I just had a problem curbing my enthusiasm, I promise to do more reading and attempt to temper my zeal from now on :o:


The fun is all about being practical and getting your hands dirty.

Because of a car accident, I only have partial use of my right hand and 800 sq. ft. apartment with my missus doe not make the best workshop...


On that basis perhaps our newby would be better served buying an L250Ti off ebay or even an XPL system. The latter has all the bells and trimmings.

I have listened to the standmount Array, 240Ti, 4305, L112, 4411, 4313, 4312A/SX/MK2 and XPL 160 before committing to the the 4425. I just find the 434x and 4425/30 to have a certain "something" which I find irresistable.


Went with an offset baffle arrangement with the woofer, midbass and midrange all in line.

Built them for biamp only.

Using aguaplas damped 2425 diaphragm.

Ian built the crossovers and used Hovland capacitors.


Hi Rob, I'd LOVE to have a listen!


Imaging is in the ear of the beholder. Despite what the high end folks say, it is inherent to the recording, not the playback mechanism. Need more be said....?

Hi Chas,

It seems like I am coming across like an imaging nut :banghead: I am not, it's just that I am so enthralled by the 434X music making ability that I just want to see if the best of both worlds are possibly. If pin point imaging and FR accuracy is that important to me, I would have kept my ATCs.


Many people claim a system with low distortion and low power compression to sound more realistic and life like than a loudspeaker that images in a technically correct manner but has limited capacity to create realistic volume levels .

The subjectivist in me likes to believe it has everything to do with a designer's "mojo". I offer up the ATCs as my "evidence". supposedly low distortion, low power compression and have anyway, good/great imagery – yet sounds bland and "lifeless", unless you crank it up to concert levels AND use only high quality recordings...

anyway, thanks for sharing your insights! I'm gonna head back to the forum's archive now...

Ian Mackenzie
09-13-2008, 08:24 AM
We have seen the likes of this sort of academic discussion before.

Dont take with the wrong way but I am not sure you really understand what you are looking for.

You appear to prefer the sound of two very different sounding systems, the 43XX/ 44X, the former having a fair bit of bastard in them relative to the 44XX, and to a large extent the other JBL system you mention.

To modify / morph these designs to the extent of your apparent desires may not be so appealing

Your comments about the ATC are indicative of this thinking.

Those of us here that like the 43XX series hate (perhaps too strong a word) the 44XX and visa versus (even more so). The 43XX tend to punch hard with a fair bit of grit while the 44XX are a lot more diffuse and mellow.

It maybe perhaps be easier to get a cheap ticket to Japan and spend a couple of days auditioning the entire range (incl the Japanese range like the 4348 and othe other models sold exclusively in Japan)

Mr. Widget
09-13-2008, 09:08 AM
I just find the 434x and 4425/30 to have a certain "something" which I find irresistable.Welcome to the club!



It seems like I am coming across like an imaging nut :banghead:Hey, I resemble that remark.:D

I do like holographic imaging. It isn't the end all though and I have ended up with a compromise that images pretty well and still has the dynamic quality of a big 43XX system.

I have heard one system that was all horn loaded using all JBL components on tractrix horns in a completely dead room. It did have holographic imaging and it was dynamic as hell, but the system required your head to be placed in a +/- 1" location... a true head in the vise system. It was very impressive, but not really practical.


Widget

Royster
09-13-2008, 10:12 AM
We have seen the likes of this sort of academic discussion before.

Dont take with the wrong way but I am not sure you really understand what you are looking for.

:blink::shock:Okay...


You appear to prefer the sound of two very different sounding systems, the 43XX/ 44X, the former having a fair bit of bastard in them relative to the 44XX, and to a large extent the other JBL system you mention.


To modify / morph these designs to the extent of your apparent desires may not be so appealing


Being born with 2 left hands and an aversion to sharp objects, I hope that in the near future, I would have sufficient space and funds to commission a 434x "clone", therefore my questions would mainly be geared towards the "whys and whynots" of your creative/technical decisions.

The above was the original intent of the thread, hoping to learn more of "your" (all DIY'ers and modders) methodology and rationale to the creative decisions you make.

Those were ALL questions, NOT declarations or suggestions on how to make a better 434x/44xx.I have never said that those were the extent of modifications which I am seeking!


Your comments about the ATC are indicative of this thinking.

Would you please kindly elaborate how my dislike for ATC is indicative of my error in hearing/thinking?


Those of us here that like the 43XX series hate (perhaps too strong a word) the 44XX and visa versus (even more so). The 43XX tend to punch hard with a fair bit of grit while the 44XX are a lot more diffuse and mellow.

Okay, I know that they are different but my tin ears are telling that the difference between the two lines are less than the differences between 2 different brands. I am a relativist and wishy washy but I certainly do not feel guilty or wrong about liking both series. Sorry.


It maybe perhaps be easier to get a cheap ticket to Japan and spend a couple of days auditioning the entire range (incl the Japanese range like the 4348 and othe other models sold exclusively in Japan)

Indeed... I guess I am not really welcomed here... :slink:

Mr. Widget
09-13-2008, 10:19 AM
Indeed... I guess I am not really welcomed here... :slink:Don't be silly... none of us take Ian's comments seriously. :D


Widget

Doc Mark
09-13-2008, 04:16 PM
Hey, Royster,

Don't be too quick to exit, just yet, Mate! Hey, most everyone here puts up with all my questions, no matter how stupid, or repetitive they may be! I figure they'll "put up with you", too!! ;):D Seriously, my only advice is that everyone has an opinion, for better or worse, and most of the time we're just sharing opinions, here, as it is in most other forums. However, LH has much to offer in the way of outstanding information, too. True, many of the Old Timers here have had to cover it over, and over, and over again, for those of us who join up with a ton of enthusiasm, and in need of answers. But, you will find that this place is peopled with very helpful folks, who are very sharing of their knowledge, their historical perspective, and yes, even their spare JBL goodies!! :D:applaud: Take off your coat and hang up your hat. Grab a chair, and have whatever satisfying beverage comes to mind. You'll be glad you did, I'm betting!! ;) Now, please excuse me whilst I think up yet another "stupid question" to annoy the local JBL Natives!!! :bouncy::bouncy:;);) Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

Doc Mark
09-13-2008, 07:08 PM
Good Evening, Ian,

Well said, Mate, and spot on the money!!! :applaud::applaud:

I believe that part of the fun in all this, is the actual journey, itself, and that actually "arriving" at whatever you think is the best for yourself is only a part of the fun (no question, a big part, though! ;) ). Knowledge is the key, and the road to knowledge is, in fact, never-ending! The best we can do is to seek as much information as we can, experiment when we can and have the wherewithal to do so, and rub elbows with folks like you, Widget, Zilch, and the myriad other super knowlegable, sharing and generous folks that populate this outstanding place!!

It's sort of like it was, back when I was playing music. Back then, I would much rather have played in a band in which all the other players were better musicians than was I. I learned more doing that, and in so doing, became much better, myself! Worked everytime, and still does. Then, one day, I realized that I was in a position to help others with less playing experience than I had. It was a fun and somewhat surprising realization, and more than a little gratifying!

I am honored to be a LH member, and really enjoy meeting up with all the others that live here! I'm also very much enjoying the journey to JBL knowledge!! May the journey be long, and may it never end! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

Zilch
09-13-2008, 11:16 PM
Three or four years ago, a noob came on board with the observation that 95% of the posts in these forums were devoted to various approaches to and attempts at rendering the large-format monitors listenable, suggesting that there was an obvious conclusion everyone was overlooking.

He was summarily dismissed. (Wish I could find the thread.)

Fast forward to today. The paradigm shift is most delicious.... ;)

Robh3606
09-14-2008, 10:42 AM
Three or four years ago, a noob came on board with the observation that 95% of the posts in these forums were devoted to various approaches to and attempts at rendering the large-format monitors listenable, suggesting that there was an obvious conclusion everyone was overlooking.

Listenable?? The obvious conclusion being that they were not as they are??

No wonder they were dismissed.


Fast forward to today. The paradigm shift is most delicious.... ;)

What paradigm shift would that be??

Rob:)

Mr. Widget
09-14-2008, 10:45 AM
What paradigm shift would that be??Was wondering that myself. :blink:


Widget

Ducatista47
09-14-2008, 11:07 AM
Listenable?? The obvious conclusion being that they were not as they are??

No wonder they were dismissed.
I see what they meant, but Royster seems to be interested in doing whatever it takes to get the sound he wants.

But imagine someone not liking what they hear at Best Buy and landing here. Plug and play would be the intention and the experience of such a listener. He would be curious indeed why big old monitors can't "play right" in anyone's room without obtaining and learning to use an RTA & expensive microphone, and then tweaking, swapping parts, upgrading supposedly already good parts and generally fussing about.

It's like, "I just want to hear my music. You guys sound like fracking engineers who are never satisfied and complain and argue about everything." That is not where I was coming from when I landed here, but I can understand that perception completely. We are not talking about trolls who first post a paraphrase of "JBL & Altec suck rancid pond water!"

Admit it, we can be an off-putting bunch sometimes.

As if to prove their point, I'm going to order some magnet wire now. :nutz:

Clark

Robh3606
09-14-2008, 12:08 PM
Admit it, we can be an off-putting bunch sometimes.


OK I admit it we can be.:bash:



He would be curious indeed why big old monitors can't "play right" in anyone's room without obtaining and learning to use an RTA & expensive microphone, and then tweaking, swapping parts, upgrading supposedly already good parts and generally fussing about.


Well I never looked at improvement threads that way. If the basic system was not good there would be little point in trying to improve it. I guess it just depends on which side of the fence your perspective is from.

Rob:)

Ducatista47
09-14-2008, 01:49 PM
The sad fact is, being able to hear the difference between 90% good, 100% good and great is both a blessing and a curse.

Thirty years ago, when I had spare time and early cable TV, I saw an "industry" film about bees pollinating some crop or other. The natural, unassisted efficiency of the process was about 90%. Not satisfied with this, the industry commissioned this film to demonstrate how their research and practices improved the percentages somewhat.

For a marginal "improvement," they destroyed the naturally occurring, free, ecological system; paid otherwise useful scientists to do things like count the bee larvae is holes drilled in timbers (you know, killing bees to study bees so they can help them); created and instituted a really complicated system of many elements and steps; and paid crop dusters an obscene amount of money to risk their lives flying three feet above the ground, around power lines and utility poles, in late dusk (when the bees were not present but when there was still theoretically enough light to see), spraying some garbage that was a toxic part of their process.

Of course, if they stopped going to all this trouble the crop would fail altogether. Previously, if they had continued to do nothing, the yield would not go up or down much and could be depended on.

It was the stupidest thing I ever saw, totally pointless and ignorant to the core, and sticks with me to this day as a cautionary tale. Woe is me - for music I am willing to ignore the lesson.

Clark

Doc Mark
09-14-2008, 02:35 PM
Hey, Clark,

You make an extremely valid point, my Friend!! Well said, and well taken! :applaud: We went through a period, out here in California, when certain well-meaning environmental groups completely stymied the thinning of our forests. They espoused that leaving them to do what they would naturally do, was the best course of action, despite a study, which THEY commissioned, that totally proved otherwise. Fast forward about 15 years, and every dire prediction contained in their own, supressed, study, came to pass. Not enough water to support the numbers of trees we had, literally MILLIONS of them weakened, were then infested with bark beetles, and died!! Then, as if that wasn't bad enough, wildfires began raging down this way, again, as predicted in their own study, and hundreds of thousands of acres of wonderful wilderness were consumed, thousands of houses were burned to the ground, and more than 100 people lost their lives, all told!!!! All because an otherwise decent group couldn't see the forest for the trees.

Now, we've had massive thinning of our over-crowded forests, and last year the one millionth bark beetle killed tree was cut down and removed. We're on a 5 year plan to remove ALL of them, and I can say that, in eleven years of living up in the mountain forests, our forests have never looked as good as they do now!!!! Our case was in reverse of what you described. But, the principle remains the same, as far as I'm concerned. Mettling humans caused massive damage. Go figure....... Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

P.S. In the last 6 years, we've had to endure two huge conflagrations. The first time, we had to evacuate, and were away from our beloved home for 10 days, without knowing if we even had a home to which we could return. We ended up making it by a mere 200 yards that time!! Then, last year, more of the same, except that we chose to stay put and violate the evacuation order. We packed up both trucks and trailers, just to be safe, but in the end made it by a more comfortable mile, instead of 200 yards! This tree thinning problem became quite REAL to us, and much more than a pie in the sky pipe dream of allowing the forests to manage themselves!! ;)

Ian Mackenzie
09-14-2008, 02:35 PM
I think the interesting aspect of this thread is we never really knew where Royster was coming from until well into the discussion.

Judging from the pics of all the DIY masterpieces, I have to say your creations has left me awe-strucked.

Having spent most of my childhood in a JBL-using household (my granddad used a pair of L36s until he passed), I have finally gotten off a decade of audiofool merry-go-round, stopped tinkering around with overpriced "mini-monitors", and settled down with a pair of 4425s.

The this comes out after a lot of open questions

I have listened to the standmount Array, 240Ti, 4305, L112, 4411, 4313, 4312A/SX/MK2 and XPL 160 before committing to the the 4425. I just find the 434x and 4425/30 to have a certain "something" which I find irresistable.

And then this :

The subjectivist in me likes to believe it has everything to do with a designer's "mojo". I offer up the ATCs as my "evidence". supposedly low distortion, low power compression and have anyway, good/great imagery – yet sounds bland and "lifeless", unless you crank it up to concert levels AND use only high quality recordings...

I wont bother re posting the comments about foam surrounds.

Was he was trolling for information? Probably but the nature of the comments suggests he is very well educatied, probably with a British education/exposure to Hifi who reads the UK HiF mags but knows very little about the subject matter at hand.

Because Royster's ideals are still evolving as he learns more he was unable to sum up in a papragragh what he wants.

In simple terms Royster has discovered he likes or prefers the big monitors but he also likes what the small mini monitors do like imaging, low. colouration.

Mr. Widget
09-14-2008, 03:50 PM
...well-meaning environmental groups completely stymied the thinning of our forests. They espoused that leaving them to do what they would naturally do, was the best course of action...

But, the principle remains the same, as far as I'm concerned. Mettling humans caused massive damage.I think the best approach is to leave nature to do it's work... periodic fires are a natural and important part of a forest's life cycle. The problem comes in when we build homes in those forests. Then we have to meddle with nature since we can't let it burn. Maybe we have finally figured out a happy balance. Kinda like taking a stock 4345 and swapping a part or two.:D


Widget

Doc Mark
09-14-2008, 04:03 PM
Hello, Ian,

So, is Royster "gone", then? I was hoping he'd hang around, and get more than just his tippy toes wet, but maybe he decided to grab his towel, and leave the JBL Beach.....

Your summation is even-handed, and well-reasoned, me thinks. Thanks, very much, for sharing it with us. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

Doc Mark
09-14-2008, 04:07 PM
I think the best approach is to leave nature to do it's work... periodic fires are a natural and important part of a forest's life cycle. The problem comes in when we build homes in those forests. Then we have to meddle with nature since we can't let it burn. Maybe we have finally figured out a happy balance. Kinda like taking a stock 4345 and swapping a part or two.:D


Widget

Hey, Widget,

You are absolutely right! It's not only wise to let fires burn, once in a while, but very necessary for some trees to reproduce and stay healthy. Your comments on the change in the situation, when we actually live in our forests, are also spot on. I think that, for the most part, we've reached a happy medium, and hope with all my heart that I'm right about that. The forest certainly looks more healthy, with lots of pitch in what heretofore have been bone dry trees. So, we must have stumbled into doing something right in that regard. Thanks for your thoughts on that, Widget. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

Ian Mackenzie
09-14-2008, 06:45 PM
Hello, Ian,

So, is Royster "gone", then? I was hoping he'd hang around, and get more than just his tippy toes wet, but maybe he decided to grab his towel, and leave the JBL Beach.....

Your summation is even-handed, and well-reasoned, me thinks. Thanks, very much, for sharing it with us. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

I dont think he's gone yet, he only just arrived!

Doc Mark
09-14-2008, 06:59 PM
Ian,

:applaud::applaud::applaud::D:D

Doc

Royster
09-14-2008, 10:08 PM
So, is Royster "gone", then?

No, but as I have informed Mr. Mackenzie in a PM, I shall refrain from posting until I have done more research and articulate my queries better.

Having said that, there are certain things I would like to address with regards to the reason for posting this thread and a little more about myself.


I think the interesting aspect of this thread is we never really knew where Royster was coming from until well into the discussion.

Judging from the pics of all the DIY masterpieces, I have to say your creations has left me awe-strucked.

My initial reason for starting this thread was like the title said, a hello to all you JBL guru/diyers out there, I also wanted to say that I really admire and respect what you have done, your passion and dedication.

The second part "Ze questions", those were indeed hypothetical queries, I was/am curious why/why not these choices were made. I live in a place were there is a big-ish community of hifi enthusiasts who are into 50s to 70s JBL products, but many of the self-styled "experts" in HK are more or less collectors concerned with resale value, quantity, nostalgia or myth-making than sharing "practical" experiences.


Having spent most of my childhood in a JBL-using household (my granddad used a pair of L36s until he passed), I have finally gotten off a decade of audiofool merry-go-round, stopped tinkering around with overpriced "mini-monitors", and settled down with a pair of 4425s.

In fact, I "adopted" my 4425s from one such collector. He is a nice enough guy and his place looked like one of those Japanese audio shops, he had the 4343s, 4345s, Exclusive/TADs, NS-1000s, he needed to sell his 4425s to make space for a pair of 4333s.

As space is a premium here, over a span of 15 or so years, I have always used mini speakers and because of the wide range of music I listen to, I have found them to be increasingly limiting. (LS 3/5a, Linn Kan, finally, ATCs)



I have listened to the standmount Array, 240Ti, 4305, L112, 4411, 4313, 4312A/SX/MK2 and XPL 160 before committing to the the 4425. I just find the 434x and 4425/30 to have a certain "something" which I find irresistable.

And then this :

The subjectivist in me likes to believe it has everything to do with a designer's "mojo". I offer up the ATCs as my "evidence". supposedly low distortion, low power compression and have anyway, good/great imagery – yet sounds bland and "lifeless", unless you crank it up to concert levels AND use only high quality recordings...

At the time I was looking to build my system, found his advert and "got lucky". Prior to meeting the collector, I spent 8 or 9 weekends visiting various new and vintage shops to listen to various systems.


Was he was trolling for information?

I was indeed ASKING out of curiosity, if that constitute as trolling and/or fishing, then I guess I am. But am I asking such questions with a malicious or insidious intent than NO! :biting::biting::biting:


Probably but the nature of the comments suggests he is very well educatied, probably with a British education/exposure to Hifi who reads the UK HiF mags but knows very little about the subject matter at hand.

Yes, I am a "hifi enthusiast", but considering that my music vs gear budget ratio (roughly 20:1), I consider myself to be a music fanatic first.

YES, I know f*%kall about the technical aspects of speaker building, that was why I was asking. :banghead: I now realise that one should do more research before hand. LESSON LEARNED.


In simple terms Royster has discovered he likes or prefers the big monitors but he also likes what the small mini monitors do like imaging, low. colouration.

TRUE


I see what they meant, but Royster seems to be interested in doing whatever it takes to get the sound he wants.

But imagine someone not liking what they hear at Best Buy and landing here. Plug and play would be the intention and the experience of such a listener. He would be curious indeed why big old monitors can't "play right" in anyone's room without obtaining and learning to use an RTA & expensive microphone, and then tweaking, swapping parts, upgrading supposedly already good parts and generally fussing about.

It's like, "I just want to hear my music. You guys sound like fracking engineers who are never satisfied and complain and argue about everything." That is not where I was coming from when I landed here, but I can understand that perception completely.

THANK YOU, but for myself at least, the last bit should read as "I just want to hear my music. You guys sound like fracking engineers who are never satisfied and complain and argue about everything and I want to learn more about the whys so that I can complain and argue about everything..."

I really regret starting this thread and getting on the wrong side of everyone, sorry. I'll "woodshed"/lurk a little bit longer before I ask any more questions...

Admistrators, where is that delete thread button?


I suppose if I had said television was more popular than Jesus, I would have gotten away with it. I'm sorry I opened my mouth. I'm not anti-God, anti-Christ, or anti-religion. I wasn't knocking it or putting it down. I was just saying it as a fact and it's true more for England than here. I'm not saying that we're better or greater, or comparing us with Jesus Christ as a person or God as a thing or whatever it is. I just said what I said and it was wrong. Or it was taken wrong. And now it's all this.


JOHN LENNON, news conference, Aug. 11, 1966

Mr. Widget
09-14-2008, 11:26 PM
No, but as I have informed Mr. Mackenzie in a PM, I shall refrain from posting until I have done more research and articulate my queries better.Why? We have a number of heavy posters who understand this stuff far less than you seem to. :D



I really regret starting this thread and getting on the wrong side of everyone, sorry. I'll "woodshed"/lurk a little bit longer before I ask any more questions...You may have pissed off a couple of folks, but I'd put it down to your basic internet misunderstanding. :)



Admistrators, where is that delete thread button?Sorry... you can't take back what you started. There is no thread delete button.


Widget

Skywave-Rider
09-15-2008, 05:30 AM
Sorry... you can't take back what you started. There is no thread delete button.


Widget

Live and........lurk.:D

Ian Mackenzie
09-15-2008, 06:56 AM
Royster,

No need to over react.

The forums are actually quite friendly at the moment compared to how they were in previous periods.

These days find it more intriguing why people post than what they actually write about.

There are those who also just like to shoot the breeze in otherwise pointless threads.

Back to the reason why you posted.

Nothing beats real practical experience but dont try and turn a system into something its not.

Some of the best improvements have been with the equivalent crossovers courtesy of Giskard.

But stray from the original design like using another horn such as a Smith horn on a 4350 or a 4343 without a proper redesign of the crossover network and the novelty wears off quickly.

We end up with people bagging systems because they scewed up doing their diy thing. I find the self denial quite annoying.

As I recall Mr Widget got tired of his modified 4350.

They looked nice though. What a waste.

Then there was the diy saga with curves panels that was also quite troublesome.

My suggestion is you have a closer look at some factory engineered systems than spend a lot of time, money and effort on a diy project and end up unhappy.

Most self designed diy projects are flop's.

You might want to look at the JBL Pro Series 4315 monitor.

Its not too big but has many nice qualities a far as a 4 way goes.

The designer Greg Timbers has written a bio on it somewhere that is worth reading.

One member I know of has more than one mint pair.

If you want hi sensitivity and nice point source imaging look at the new GPA 604 (Altec).

Its getting rave reviews at shows.

http://www.greatplainsaudio.com/604_8H_II.pdf

Skywave-Rider
09-15-2008, 07:05 AM
...

Some of the best improvements have been with the equivalent crossovers courtesy of Giskard....



Royster:

FYI: Giskard is now 4313B (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/member.php?u=15)

You'll find there's a hell of a lot of bluster, but it might be worth sailing through.

PS: Ian, nice new avatar.

Robh3606
09-15-2008, 07:21 AM
But stray from the original design like using another horn such as a Smith horn on a 4350 or a 4343 without a proper redesign of the crossover network and the novelty wears off quickly.

That's a good point and why you should start with a know good design. Build the original as best you can and go from there. Always nice if the driver set you want to use is still supported by JBL with recone kits. That way you can start with fresh essentally factory new drivers. Always a good idea.

The equivalent circuits match the original voltage drives and the 4344 one sounds quite good. The reason they were done was the multitap inductors in the 4344/45 crossvers were no longer available from JBL.

Rob:)

Chas
09-15-2008, 08:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chas http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=220871#post220871)
Need more be said....?

:argue:

Widget

Geez, I go away for a weekend and look what happens! Widget, I was referring to the aural cues being inherent to the recording, not the playback equipment. I notice that sometimes folks think that speakers should change or modify them somehow, rather than simply reproduce what is there...

I agree with Rob, the original 434X designs were well done, they would be extremely difficult, for an amateur to improve upon, other than using better, more modern parts in some cases.

4313B
09-15-2008, 08:26 AM
the original 434X designs are well done, they would be extremely difficult to improve uponThey were a cool series of loudspeakers and it was quite fun listening to them all. I can understand why so many people still like them.

Mr. Widget
09-15-2008, 08:45 AM
Geez, I go away for a weekend and look what happens!I wouldn't take that post too seriously. ;)


They were a cool series of loudspeakers and it was quite fun listening to them all. I can understand why so many people still like them.A couple of years ago, I was visiting Speakerdave and among other things we listened to his 4333s... I had forgotten how much fun they could be too. None of these older systems are particularly accurate or image well by contemporary standards, but they do make the music come alive in their own way.


Widget

speakerdave
09-15-2008, 11:14 AM
Thoroughly enjoyable speakers, and when you add the design chops of the L300 you can understand why people like them so much.

boputnam
09-15-2008, 04:06 PM
I really regret starting this thread and getting on the wrong side of everyone, sorry. Dood, I don't think you got on the wrong side of anyone. It is easy to mis-interpret the nekkedness of Internet type... Just carry on.

I really enjoyed your list of questions: #4, 6 & 7 had me grinning. I'd love to try some of those things on the 4345, but I have this unsettling feeling anything that sophisticated would disrupt the "nuances", shall we say ;) , of the 4345's acoustic behavior. I have no idea why it works as well as it does, considering your #4, 6 & 7.


I want to learn more about the whys so that I can complain and argue about everything..."That there had me in stitches! :rotfl:

Doc Mark
09-15-2008, 05:28 PM
Thoroughly enjoyable speakers, and when you add the design chops of the L300 you can understand why people like them so much.

Hello, SpeakerDave, Widget, and All,

This is an outstanding point, and as far as I'm concerned, spot on the money! I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that there are those who consider the 4333 and L300 to be poor sound reproducers. However, to my ear, the L300's sound simply outstanding! I LOVE their tonal quality, their clarity, and their dynamics. They are, if nothing else, even better than I remembered, back when I first heard a pair of the in the 1970's!! I'm super proud to own a pair, and also to have the opportunity to turn those 4333 cabinets that were passed my way, into another such system! They are my "Dream Speakers"!! Does it bother me that others might not consider them to be as good as I do? Not one small whit!!! Each to his/her own, and it takes a lot of horses to make an enjoyable race, or, a lot of different nuts to make a decent mix!! ;):D Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

P.S. Now, when I have time, on to the 4-way's!!! ;):D:applaud::applaud:

Ducatista47
09-15-2008, 08:30 PM
That there had me in stitches! :rotfl:
Likewise! that may be the single best laugh I have ever had here. I even feel good about having made the non-contribution of inadvertently setting it up.

Every time I have been a straight man it was by accident...

Clark

Royster
09-16-2008, 02:43 AM
Royster,

No need to over react.

The forums are actually quite friendly at the moment compared to how they were in previous periods.

These days find it more intriguing why people post than what they actually write about.

There are those who also just like to shoot the breeze in otherwise pointless threads.

Back to the reason why you posted.

Nothing beats real practical experience but dont try and turn a system into something its not.

Some of the best improvements have been with the equivalent crossovers courtesy of Giskard.

But stray from the original design like using another horn such as a Smith horn on a 4350 or a 4343 without a proper redesign of the crossover network and the novelty wears off quickly.

We end up with people bagging systems because they scewed up doing their diy thing. I find the self denial quite annoying.

As I recall Mr Widget got tired of his modified 4350.

They looked nice though. What a waste.

Then there was the diy saga with curves panels that was also quite troublesome.

My suggestion is you have a closer look at some factory engineered systems than spend a lot of time, money and effort on a diy project and end up unhappy.

Most self designed diy projects are flop's.

You might want to look at the JBL Pro Series 4315 monitor.

Its not too big but has many nice qualities a far as a 4 way goes.

The designer Greg Timbers has written a bio on it somewhere that is worth reading.

One member I know of has more than one mint pair.

If you want hi sensitivity and nice point source imaging look at the new GPA 604 (Altec).

Its getting rave reviews at shows.

http://www.greatplainsaudio.com/604_8H_II.pdf

Thanks for the info.... both the 4315 and the 604 looks intriguing, will do more research. 604 seems more DIY beginners friendly though...

Strange that I've never seen a 4315 in the flesh, folks here tend to go for 4343/44/45 (in fact, most of Japan's vintage JBLs have migrated to here and China...)

Spent yesterday at a "friend of a friend"'s place and spent a few hours listening to his 4344 / vintage Luxman valve kit...like them plenty, vibrant and addictive.

A "possibly interesting" aside, the fella had quite a few back issues of Japan,s Stereo Sound mags, though I don't know the language, flipping through them, I spotted that the mag spent 3 years chronicling a guy's mods to his 4343, I wonder if any Japanese AH members read those articles?

Thanks again

Now back to research...

pos
09-16-2008, 04:27 AM
I never got around to damping the 2307 horn, worth a try but the compression driver and the baffle appear to damp any noticable ringing.
That has been tried by a french 4345 owner, Mattera:
He made 2307 clones out of wood, and reported spectacular improvements in resonance dampening.

pos
09-18-2008, 02:56 AM
Ian, why are you deleting all your posts lately?
Are you, well... Giskarding??