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View Full Version : ti10k for 2000 dollars - a good deal?



lofi-ear
09-08-2008, 01:44 PM
a person from my town wants to get rid of his ti's. selling for 1400 euros, approx 2000 dollars. is this a good deal or not? i've read _very_ mixed reviews about these speakers. they sounded fine enough as i auditioned them but the room and amp did not give them justice i think.

johnaec
09-08-2008, 01:52 PM
a person from my town wants to get rid of his ti's. selling for 1400 euros, approx 2000 dollars. is this a good deal or not? i've read _very_ mixed reviews about these speakers. they sounded fine enough as i auditioned them but the room and amp did not give them justice i think.If the price is for a pair it's probably a good deal, especially compared to Harman direct: http://www.harmanaudio.com/search_browse/product_detail.asp?urlMaterialNumber=TI10KBE-Z&status= What would be nice is if he also had the original TiK subs, which used the Sub1500 driver.

Personally, I think much better cost/performance ratios are to be had with stuff like 250Ti's, etc., when available...

Joh

SEAWOLF97
09-08-2008, 02:24 PM
Personally, I think much better cost/performance ratios are to be had with stuff like 250Ti's, etc., when available...
Joh


250Ti's don't seem to bringing high value these days. A pristine set went locally here a few weeks back for $2,000.

If Brutal is correct, then johnaec's statement is even more true ....if flipping, the 250ti may not be a great item unless bought very cheap,,,but if buying for your own enjoyment, the trick is to find the best quality in a class, while the prices are depressed. ;)

Valentin
09-08-2008, 03:34 PM
it is a great deal

you will not get close to that sound and does looks for near 2000 usd

rdgrimes
09-08-2008, 03:34 PM
a person from my town wants to get rid of his ti's. selling for 1400 euros, approx 2000 dollars. is this a good deal or not? i've read _very_ mixed reviews about these speakers. they sounded fine enough as i auditioned them but the room and amp did not give them justice i think.

I'd jump on it. they are widely reputed to be the best tweeter-based speakers ever made. They also use an inverse dome titanium mid-driver which gives really awesome dispersion. No offense to 250ti lovers, but these are way higher on the food chain. It's maybe the only speaker I'd give up my PS setup for.

Do please be aware that if you get these, you'll want MORE of them. And also plan to run lots of power through them.

lofi-ear
09-08-2008, 04:05 PM
thanks for all the replies. i was wondering if it's possible to tweak the treble (it sounded a bit harsh with some test material) with a simple resistor network, without messing up the overall sound. and to enhance bass depth, make the reflex ports a little bit longer and fill the lower chamber of the speaker cabinet with polyester wool... anyone here been tweaking their ti10k or ti6k speakers?

or again, maybe it was the amp responsible for the treble harshness.

Jakob
09-08-2008, 04:45 PM
According to prices for these in f.e. Denmark it seems to be a very good deal.
If you decide to get them, don't do a thing until you've listened to them thouroghly with your electronics and found the right placement in your room. Especially the bass is very room-sensitive. About the mid-harshness: if it remains in your setup, buy a nice tube preamp ;)

Valentin
09-08-2008, 06:29 PM
better electronics would be your solution and a good room not too bright

SEAWOLF97
09-08-2008, 06:48 PM
No offense to 250ti lovers, but these are way higher on the food chain. .

Ok...I'll bite

How are 2 8 inchers "way higher on the food chain" than an le-14 ?? or are you saying the French Audax 025ti is "way higher on the food chain" than the 044ti ???



I do not expect JBL to lead me to Audax directly. The back of the tweeters says "Made in France". Code name of the product "025Ti" matches the Audax product list, specifications are identical, and the domes look exactly the same. The price paid was the same as in Audax price list, €18 each, plus tax..



I feel a little uncertain what tweeter to use right now. My original thought was to use the Ti10K tweeter 025Ti. But when I put into my MLS rig the SPL is very uneven with two clear dips at 8k and 15k.
Maybe a 2404 would be the cure...


so please, elaborate , how is the ti10k "way higher on the food chain" ???

( I may want to trade for these !!! )


they are widely reputed to be the best tweeter-based speakers ever made.

where did you read this, please ??

rdgrimes
09-08-2008, 07:52 PM
thanks for all the replies. i was wondering if it's possible to tweak the treble (it sounded a bit harsh with some test material) with a simple resistor network, without messing up the overall sound. and to enhance bass depth, make the reflex ports a little bit longer and fill the lower chamber of the speaker cabinet with polyester wool... anyone here been tweaking their ti10k or ti6k speakers?

or again, maybe it was the amp responsible for the treble harshness.

What sort of amp were they on? These bad boys want 400 WPC for normal listening, 200 WPC for hard rocking high-distortion music, and 500 WPC+ for high-end acoustic music. A lesser amp will get sucked into clipping pretty easy and will sound yucky. It's pretty amazing how easy some amps drive themselves into clipping. Any bass problems were likely room-related, but there's no reason not to use a GOOD sub with them. The 1500 Array would be the obvious choice.

Titanium Dome
09-08-2008, 08:33 PM
It's a fair comparison as they're both four-way designs, though it's obvious there are as many differences as similarities.

Cabinets: both are high quality, wood veneer, furniture-grade, specially shaped enclosures. However, the 250Ti looks positively Medieval in comparison. The TiK design is superior in many ways: more rigid, better braced, no parallel walls, three sides vs. four, better baffle design, and stunning Danish craftsmanship. And it's not just looks, its materials and sonic qualities are first-rate and more advanced, too. What the 250Ti has is interior volume, and lots of it, which is dictated by that big driver near the bottom.

Electronics: the 250Ti has a monster of a network in it, with all the best qualities of a top-of-the-line crossover... of twenty years ago. Unless you've got the BQ, it's not even biamp capable. The TiK's networks (yes, networks) are far simpler and more modern, and there are four of them, each independent of the others for quad-amping if desired. Talk about tweak-ability! If you can't fine tune this baby, you don't deserve to have it.

Drivers: I have several 044Ti drivers and a pair of the Ti025Ks. The 044Ti is bigger in both diaphragm and magnet. It's also a twenty-year-old design, formed with dated techniques and built with a less than durable design, aka the sticky, oozing pad syndrome. The 044Ti is EOL or near EOL as far as I'm concerned. Once mine lose a few more dB and kHz, I'll pull them and sell them on ebay to some rabid vintage fan. :p The Ti025K is amazingly smooth, takes a ton of power, and goes higher than the 044Ti. Too much distortion or clipping will kill it--so don't do that! It will tell you when the end is near by starting to sound shrill and desperate. Don't blame the driver; blame the piece of crap being used to drive the driver. The 044Ti will take substantial abuse and will help you with your hearing loss if you want by dishing out all the distortion and clipping you can throw at it, but it is long in the tooth, and every year its performance is another notch below optimum.

The 804Ti midrange driver is better than the 104H midrange driver in every way. Better, better, better. The 104H is a dinosaur by comparison--an ugly, muddy, stinky, scaly dinosaur with ticks festering under its molting skin.

Even though I'm not a big fan of 6.5" drivers, the 806G-1 is one of the best I've ever heard. It easily matches one of my favorite midbass drivers, the 108H. I wouldn't say it sounds better, but it sounds every bit as good, plus it's faster and cleaner when it counts.

The two 808J woofers should not be underestimated. Of course, I'm not going to say they're better than my all time favorite woofer the LE14H-x (in this case -1). The LE14H-1 has a stronger bottom end, and it's very agile, articulate, and musical for its size. But I must say that the pair of 808Js is incredible up to--or should I say "down to"-- a certain point. They are more dynamic and quick until they get down to the lower registers. Plus, there's a cleanness* about them is is very desirable. They, like the LE14H-1, can take a lot of power, and within their range they are astonishing to hear at loud volumes.

Verdict:

Cabinet design, execution, and neutrality: Ti10K (250Ti is just 20 years old)
Network design and flexibility: Ti10K (no contest, unless with 250Ti CC version)
HF transducer: Ti10K (no contest)
MF transducer: Ti10K (no contest)
MB transducer: Ti10K and 250Ti (tie)
LF transducer: 250Ti (808Js very close but lose in the very bottom)

:flamer: Ready! :flamed:

*It's the polypropylene! Co-injected polypropylene cones on cast Al frames to be exact, just like car speakers! But for the home.

Titanium Dome
09-08-2008, 08:43 PM
a person from my town wants to get rid of his ti's. selling for 1400 euros, approx 2000 dollars. is this a good deal or not? i've read _very_ mixed reviews about these speakers. they sounded fine enough as i auditioned them but the room and amp did not give them justice i think.

In other words, lofi-ear, buy them! If you lived near me I'd tell you to buy them, and if you didn't like them, I'd promise to buy them right off you for a 10% premium. (I'd pay you $2,200.)

rdgrimes
09-08-2008, 09:17 PM
$2500, firm. :D I'd give you my L96's for them, and I really LOVE my L96's. ;)

Titanium Dome
09-08-2008, 09:40 PM
BTW, the TI025K is a $90 driver. The 804Ti inverted dome is a $175 midrange.

The very similar TM025 from the Performance Series was a $57 driver when it was available, and the 904Ti inverted dome (as seen in my avatar) is a $133 midrange.

Mr. Widget
09-09-2008, 12:06 AM
However, the 250Ti looks positively Medieval in comparison. :applaud:

...and all this time I thought you didn't have an eye for design. ;)
An absolute master of design criticism couldn't have phrased it better. :bouncy:


Widget

lofi-ear
09-09-2008, 12:32 PM
What sort of amp were they on? These bad boys want 400 WPC for normal listening, 200 WPC for hard rocking high-distortion music, and 500 WPC+ for high-end acoustic music. A lesser amp will get sucked into clipping pretty easy and will sound yucky. It's pretty amazing how easy some amps drive themselves into clipping. Any bass problems were likely room-related, but there's no reason not to use a GOOD sub with them. The 1500 Array would be the obvious choice.

:blink: erm... why all this wattage? these are rather sensitive speakers and I don't intend blowing my eardrums :)

rdgrimes
09-09-2008, 01:54 PM
:blink: erm... why all this wattage? these are rather sensitive speakers and I don't intend blowing my eardrums :)

Suggest you read up on speaker power requirements. Has nothing to do with volume and everything to do with transients. When under-driven, even the finest speaker will deliver sound very much like what you described. It's called clipping (for the most part). Here's a somewhat dated, but still accurate discussion: http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/reference/notes/power-req.htm

I wouldn't insult these speakers with anything less than 200 WPC, and would prefer much more.

lofi-ear
09-14-2008, 11:52 AM
Hi again,
Is the smaller ti6k a better loudspeaker as far as sound quality is concerned? I know that 10k will play alot louder but being a 4-way speaker with a very complex crossover network I guess the 3-way ti6k would be a lot easier to design "successfully" - also a few magazine reviews have praised the ti6k whereas the larger brother has gained more dubious comments concerning bass response and imaging..

Any comments?

Titanium Dome
09-14-2008, 01:27 PM
In most cases, no it is not. In some cases, yes it is.

The Ti10K needs a bigger space to fully open up. A Ti6K will sound better in a smaller room, unless you do specific room treatments to accommodate the Ti10K.

Over the years, I've marveled at the rooms that many speaker reviewers and critics use to audition speakers in their homes. It's a miracle anything sounds good in them, and, if anything does, it's usually the smaller speakers that fare better.

Many of us have rooms that tend to favor smaller speakers, too, though it's not uncommon for some of our enthusiasts to have speakers that are way too large for the room and can never really be turned up and enjoyed as designed. Sure, they'll play LOUD, but they won't really have the space to open up to their full glory.

It's not just square feet/square meters that matter, its cubic feet/cubic meters that matter as well in a room. A 10x12x8 room has only 960 cubic feet in it. A 14x20x7 basement room has 1,960 cubic feet. I have a 14x16 room that would appear to be smaller than a 14x20 room, but my speakers see it as larger, because with its 11' ceiling, it has 2,464 cubic feet.

You still need to have enough distance between listener and speakers and need to check room modes, etc., so a 6x8 room with 30' ceilings (1,440 cubic feet) makes no sense and does not produce a better room than 10x12x8.

Anyhow this is getting off topic. Its intent is to say the Ti6K will be ideal in many of the typical rooms in regular houses, but in a larger room the Ti10K will be the clear choice.

JBLAddict
09-29-2008, 01:50 PM
Suggest you read up on speaker power requirements. Has nothing to do with volume and everything to do with transients. When under-driven, even the finest speaker will deliver sound very much like what you described. It's called clipping (for the most part). Here's a somewhat dated, but still accurate discussion: http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/reference/notes/power-req.htm

I wouldn't insult these speakers with anything less than 200 WPC, and would prefer much more.

how is the power requirement affected by this being a 6ohm design (I've only owned 8ohm)

thanks

Robh3606
09-29-2008, 02:22 PM
Don't let those higher power ratings fool you. The difference from 100-400 watts is only 6db. Anything less than a 6db change is really insignificant. All that really works out to be is a little more added headroom. So 200-500 hundred is no big deal.

Rob:)

BMWCCA
09-29-2008, 02:31 PM
Its intent is to say the Ti6K will be ideal in many of the typical rooms in regular houses, but in a larger room the Ti10K will be the clear choice.This is beginning to sound a lot like your L7 v. L5 discussion. Just adding some zeros to the acquisition price. :D

Titanium Dome
09-29-2008, 06:03 PM
This is beginning to sound a lot like your L7 v. L5 discussion. Just adding some zeros to the acquisition price. :D

Why yes it does. ;) It reflects the fact that speaker size and room size do matter, though it's important not to make the erroneous assumption that small rooms and small speakers or large rooms and large speakers always go together.