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View Full Version : Did anyone ever get a everest horn clone or mold



THEJBLKID
08-29-2008, 11:53 AM
hey guys havent been on the site for a while been busy as heck but im still havent got those everest built yet .but im still looking for parts i need a horns i got some tweeters and i got some woofers finding the horn is like a needle in a hay stack . i was even thinking about a wooden horn that would look really cool too. i found a company that make a horn sorta like it but it not the same it www.wrightsound.com/a.vari.q.html (http://www.wrightsound.com/a.vari.q.html) that the link to it if you wanna check it let me if you guys got anything thanks for the birthday wishes i wish you guys the best rob:D

grumpy
08-29-2008, 02:03 PM
The option of a 2" horn is interesting... appears their spec sheet links are
not active...

THEJBLKID
08-29-2008, 03:27 PM
i notice that to i think can access it directly what do you think about it so far you think i might be able to use it

THEJBLKID
08-29-2008, 04:11 PM
how hard to think it would be to get wooden horn made of the old everest horn any feed back would be great

Don Mascali
08-29-2008, 04:39 PM
I found a 4660A on CraigsList. It has a horn that is the same as the Everest with a 2426H driver and a 2226H 15" woofer.

They were used in Churches and auditoriums all over the place. If you are patient they turn up.
The horns are perfect in my system in place of 2344's as my speakers are too close to the outer walls. The controlled dispersion is a thing of beauty.

pos
08-29-2008, 04:46 PM
Would not in-toeing the 2344 produce a similar asymmetrical soundfield phenomenon?

Don Mascali
08-29-2008, 05:04 PM
No, there is way too much dispersion (100 deg).

The room is 18' across and I have the two Everest horns on each side wall and a 2344/2426H between 2-12" drivers as a center channel with a 7.1 surround HT system. The sound stage is nice. With the 2344's on the side there was too much interaction with the walls.

Link to 4660 pdf;

http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/4660.pdf

Zilch
08-29-2008, 06:13 PM
Geddes recommends toeing-in 45° to simulate the controlled-directivity sweet spot expansion effect.

Extreme, but it sorta works.

He also suggests that the first reflection coming from the opposite wall cleans up the soundfield.

Nobody in the room listens on-axis; constant directivity is essential.

[See the Summa white paper on his website.... :yes: ]

Don Mascali
08-29-2008, 06:38 PM
I get the whole front of the room as a sweet spot.:D
You get controlled sound from all of the horns as you move from side to side. If you are 5' back or so the center follows you. It's weird.

I sit 20' from the front wall and have surround speakers on either side of me (12" and 2344/2426H) A pair of the same on the rear wall 4' behind me.

I just didn't like the 2344's coming off the walls. May be because it is brick and block and acoustically hard.

Robh3606
08-29-2008, 06:42 PM
Geddes recommends toeing-in 45° to simulate the controlled-directivity sweet spot expansion effect.

Extreme, but it sorta works.


Hello Zilch

I saw that too but I can't imagine it would work as well as the Everest horns and if it did it would be over a smaller area. I don't think you would get as much depth. Come to think of it the depth may not mater all that much.

Rob:)

Zilch
08-29-2008, 07:09 PM
I just didn't like the 2344's coming off the walls. May be because it is brick and block and acoustically hard.That's the deal with the toe-in. Presumably, with good constant directivity, everything reflecting off the sidewall is down at least 6 dB, and reflecting at an oblique angle.... :yes:

grumpy
08-29-2008, 08:02 PM
you think i might be able to use it

As a drop-in for the original Everest design? likely not.

As a potentially satisfying DIY effort that mimics the Everest in intent?
I don't see why not, if you're prepared to do your own design work
(including custom crossover).

Don... nice to see someone using these horns 2346? to good effect :)

Hoerninger
08-29-2008, 08:46 PM
You can perfect this kind of toeing in when using one half of the Paragon reflector:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=18649&highlight=soundstage+paragon&page=2
Some sort of board will do.
___________
Peter

Robh3606
08-29-2008, 09:26 PM
You can perfect this kind of toeing in when using one half of the Paragon reflector:


Hello Hoerninger

I don't know about that. The last thing I would want to do is bounce the output of a horn off a reflector. Using a lense on the 4344 has me wondering at times. Some of that energy has to be reflected right back into the horn. I would much rather use the horns directivity to my advantage and use toe-in or just bite the bullit and try to get a smaller version of the Everest horns like the 3100 series horns.


Rob:)

Don Mascali
08-29-2008, 09:28 PM
As a drop-in for the original Everest design? likey not

The only difference is the mounting flange on the exterior. The horn itself is identical. I use a 2405 next to the short horn side in the same position as on the Everest. It is mounted on a hinged baffle so that I can optimize the patterns. I use all active X-overs and adjust delays and all. I have been very satisfied with the results.

Hoerninger
08-30-2008, 12:26 AM
... I don't know about that.
... Some of that energy has to be reflected right back into the horn.:)
Hello Rob,

it is the DIY section, playing for fun. ;)

The trick with toeing in is an old one, it came up in the first years for stereo reproduction. But the sound distribution pattern is very frequency dependend (diffraction, directivity).

The 4660 horn is well documented. There is a white paper by John Eargle "The JBL Project Everest Constant Imaging System" (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5671).
Off-center phantom images are well explained.

Concerning the Paragon reflector it is already stated in the patend to devide it into two parts. In the formerly linked thread I have made a rough analysis of the distribution pattern of the reflector, there is a similarity to the one of the 4660 horn. When you use the reflector with a bookshelf speaker there is nearly no frequency depend distribution of sound by the reflector (and btw no horn involved).
I had tried the reflector with two bookshelves for testing with great success.

Think of size and WAF, I do not use a bookshelf speaker with a reflector!
But I can imagine a surround system with 4660s is awsome.
___________
Peter

pos
08-30-2008, 03:23 AM
The option of a 2" horn is interesting... appears their spec sheet links are
not active...

from the everest product profile article (http://www.audioheritage.org/html/profiles/jbl/everest.htm) :

A one inch driver was selected since the original 4660 horn was designed around such a driver. A two inch driver could have provided superior response, but the larger throat would have presented problems in pattern controlMaybe a 1.5" thoat would retain good dispertion? Plus it would allow to use more recent drivers.

Robh3606
08-30-2008, 09:20 AM
Hello Peter


it is the DIY section, playing for fun. ;)


I enjoy talking about this and yes it is fun:).

"The trick with toeing in is an old one, it came up in the first years for stereo reproduction. But the sound distribution pattern is very frequency dependent (diffraction, directivity).'

It is however back in the day there were no CD horns available. With a CD horn directivity is not an issue and the directivity will work with you to minimize diffraction from near by walls. I see that as a win win.



When you use the reflector with a bookshelf speaker there is nearly no frequency depend distribution of sound by the reflector (and btw no horn involved).

How could that be?? The source itself is not CD. I could see bouncing the output of a CD horn to fit that criteria but I don't see why you would do it.

If you look at a large reflector, like a wall, as a perfect mirror it should also reflect the directivity/power distribution of the source. I can see different size reflectors having different properties.

A small reflector may see a small portion of the overall power response and there may not be any frequency dependent distribution by it.

What size reflector do you need as far as wavelengths and frequency range to aim at the listener??


In the formerly linked thread I have made a rough analysis of the distribution pattern of the reflector, there is a similarity to the one of the 4660 horn.

There may be a similarity but they really are very different approaches. In the Keelle horn the bandwidth is not divided as an example.


I had tried the reflector with two bookshelves for testing with great success.

You have any pictures of your test set-ups??

Here's some good reading on localization.

http://www.hauptmikrofon.de/theile.htm


Rob:)

pos
08-30-2008, 11:35 AM
attached is an AES paper on the everest horn, posted as a link by Peter in another thread.

grumpy
08-30-2008, 12:15 PM
The only difference is the mounting flange on the exterior. The horn itself is identical. I use a 2405 next to the short horn side in the same position as on the Everest. It is mounted on a hinged baffle so that I can optimize the patterns. I use all active X-overs and adjust delays and all. I have been very satisfied with the results.

Don, I'm assuming you're using the 4660 horn, which I also have, and
know about the mounting hole pattern difference (vs. Everest) and also
that the Everest horns had the backside of the protruding 'peaks' filled in.
I was referring to the use of the Wright horns when saying they might
require some crossover changes. (?)

POS, re 2" entry and pattern control... I recall that note/concern, but
depending on which end of the bandpass the pattern control would be
lost (guessing higher end (?)), I might be willing to trade off a bit of that for
"superior response". As I've not seen any detailed documentation for the
Wright horns, the possibility only remains "interesting" :)

Robh3606
08-30-2008, 12:40 PM
POS, re 2" entry and pattern control... I recall that note/concern, but depending on which end of the bandpass the pattern control would be
lost (guessing higher end (?)), I might be willing to trade off a bit of that for "superior response". As I've not seen any detailed documentation for the Wright horns, the possibility only remains "interesting" :)

Hello Grumpy

That would be the top end just like trying to do a 2" version of a 2344. The Difraction slot width controls what frequency you can maintain directivity up to. The wider the slot the lower that frequency becomes.

Rob:)

Don Mascali
08-30-2008, 01:28 PM
Grumpy:

Sorry, I see what you mean now.
I don't use another driver in my horn enclosure. I'm sure it was resonating in the 4660 configuration. They were Low Fi but the pattern made them perfect for their intended use.
I never really thought of the 2" driver as all of my horns use 2426H drivers. There are 7 in the 7.1 setup.

What X-over freq do you use with the horn? I have used 1K to 1.5K. It's all good. I could go to 2K with the mids I use.

grumpy
08-30-2008, 02:01 PM
Hi Rob, ... yes, that's what I was expecting. Given a ~3/4" diffraction slot,
I'd expect even the 2346 to be less effective re pattern control
starting somewhere ~10KHz. Thanks for the illuminating example.

Not knowing what Wright did, short of assuming they cut off a bit from a
2346-redesign and smoothed in a 2" transition, it's hard for me to speculate
further. I don't plan on hacking mine anytime soon :D

Don, when I had them running, I was using ~1KHz as the LF/MF crossover
freq. I didn't feel the need to try lower, and they didn't seem stressed.

Back to the original thread question, IIRC, there were some 3100 horns
that throats were DIY'd and at least one attempt at molding the horns
themselves. As has been suggested, even if also NLA from JBL, their size
may be a much more practical alternative (vs 2346) for most DIYers.

-grumpy

THEJBLKID
09-01-2008, 04:32 AM
i saw the diagram that was posted:applaud: of the 2346 would it be posible to make it out of wood i hope everybody has a good holidAY ROB

Don Mascali
09-01-2008, 10:20 AM
I suppose it could be copied from an original. It has many complex curves, would be a tough project. One of our members was trying to use a mold. I think he hit a wall and tried something else.

You can read about it here;

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=6051&highlight=2346

THEJBLKID
09-02-2008, 02:33 PM
i notice that but i did get get those plans off too a wood worker i shouold be hearing something back from them tomarrow ill keep you guys posted let you know what i hear back hope everyone had a great holiday