Harman Shares hit 5 year low

[4345]

Maybe they need to try and sell all products in all markets.





Harman hits 5-year-low after earnings miss
Monday August 18, 12:38 pm ET

Harman International Industries slides to 5-year-low after 4th-quarter earnings miss

CHICAGO (AP) -- Shares of electronics manufacturer Harman International Industries Inc. sank to a five-year low Monday, falling for the second-consecutive trading day after posting a fiscal fourth-quarter profit far below Wall Street forecasts.
The maker of audio and electronic products said after the closing bell Thursday that its fiscal fourth-quarter profit plunged 70 percent to $31.7 million, or 54 cents per share, on revenue of $1.07 billion.
Stripping out one-time items, the company reported an adjusted profit of 68 cents per share, missing analysts target by 9 cents.
Analysts polled by Thomson Reuters anticipated a higher profit of 77 cents per share.
After the Washington-based company's stock fell 14 percent Friday, it continued to sink Monday.
Shares shed $3.05, or 8.2 percent, to $33.95 in midday trading, after slumping to a low of $33.76 earlier in the session.

[4313B]

Maybe they need to try and sell all products in all markets.Everything is at a 5 year low except maybe the bank account balances of the top 1% of the nation's wealthy.

[4345]

I think there are opportunities out there for the innovative. I think the JBL sales team needs to work harder. I hope they are not using the economy, class warfare or the national debt as excuses to not improve. I think they can do a better job.

By the way, my intent was not start a politcal debate. I just am mad that they do not market the nicer stuff in the USA.

[4313B]

Aug. 18 (Bloomberg) -- Fannie Mae (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=FNM%3AUS) and Freddie Mac (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=FRE%3AUS) tumbled in New York trading to their lowest levels in more than 17 years on concern the government will be forced to bail out the mortgage- finance companies, wiping out common stockholders.

Fannie (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=FNM%3AUS) slid 22 percent, while Freddie (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=FRE%3AUS) dropped 25 percent after Barron's reported that the Bush administration is anticipating the government-chartered companies will fail to raise the equity they need to offset credit losses, prompting the U.S. Treasury to act. The companies' stock market values are well below the minimum of $10 billion in capital that each would need to raise to ''have any credibility,'' Barron's said in its story.
I think they can do a better job.:dont-know
I just am mad that they do not market the nicer stuff in the USA.Yeah, me too. And we aren't the only ones.

[Titanium Dome]

We've been down this road before.

So let's say JBL offers some of its 4348s here in a special "Audioheritage Patriot's Special" at $10,000 a pair or the 4338 for proportionally less. Who here is going to pony up the money?

No one here is buying 1400 Arrays offered on AudiogoN for less than $7000 a pair. No one here is buying Performance Series gear at less than $4500 a pair (PS1400 + PT800 stacks) off Harmanaudio.com.

I just don't see it. :blink:

Perhaps we can flash back to 2005:

I'm getting the feeling that Harman knows their markets. Five guys in the U.S. wanting 4348's probably doesn't constitute a market. I have little doubt that if someone here had the cash and asked for a pair they'd end up getting a pair.

So who's going to man up and walk into Northridge with a $12k cashier's check and say, "I'd like two 4348s, please, and I'd like some change back." :dont-know

[Domino]

Don't forget the top 1% pay more in income tax than the bottom 90%.

[hjames]

Don't forget the top 1% pay more in income tax than the bottom 90%.

Really? a Higher percentage across the board on earnings than the rest pay?
Those figures are from ...?

[BMWCCA]

Don't forget the top 1% pay more in income tax than the bottom 90%.
Sounds like someone's been getting their news from Rush Limbaugh. Pleaser remember that in the USA, that top 1% means incomes over $364,657 per year, and that's in ADJUSTED gross income after all the tax advantages. That top 1% pay about 40% of all income taxes paid in the USA. The top 5% earn over $145,283, and the top 10% are all those over $103,912. The top 25% are those earning only over $62,000 and that 25% together pay 86% of all taxes while earning 60% of the total AGI. The entire bottom 50% in this country earn less than $30,881. So what does this bigger picture tell us? Mostly that there is a huge gap between the haves and the have-nots in this country, and these figures only cover those actually paying taxes. 50% of those filing tax returns earn less than $30,000.

Now I'm certainly not saying our government is spending your income taxes wisely, but: If you earn it off the backs of the workers, you should pay some of it back to the workers. Sure I'm a Marxist, but I come by it honestly!

And don't tell me that 1% take all the risk. We now know there is little risk for those top earners these days. The government will manipulate the markets and the interest rate to ensure you don't lose. Buy-outs and subsidies ensure the CEO's still have their golden parachutes (tax-free in some cases). And the millionaires made by selling air (radio frequencies for cell phones, for instance) are all government insiders with the connections to play those games that most of us just don't have (Virginia's Mark Warner). The only fact we can take from this is that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. And if the top earners get all sanctimonious about how much they pay in tax, remember they pretty much own the politicians, the playing field, and the ball. The rest of us get to mow the field and keep the spilled Gatorade.

But then we've previously established that I am a bottom-feeder!

[4345]

I think a lot of people might. If you go back to the 50's I am sure that most Hartsfield buyers were not audiophiles like us. They were the Donald Trumps of their era or other well heeled non-audiophiles who wanted the best. I am sure most Ferrari owners know very little compared to the guy who tinkers with his 1979 Trans Am every weekend.

The audiophiles of the 50's were buying parts and putting things together, not buying Hartsfields. Yet it was these statement speakers that made JBL famous. I think they could and should do a better job of marketing the high end line in the U.S. I don't think it would be too expensive and the rewards might be big.

They also need to create a classic line that appeals to people more. I don't think the array series is it. I think the new Everest is nice, but 60K is probably too expensive.

[4313B]

And don't tell me that 1% take all the risk.
Privatized profit and socialized risk.

Who will buy the top end speakers?

I think a lot of people might.If you can't carry it with you is isn't worth a rat's ass. That's the reality of today. I'm not sure how to make it more plain. JBL is huge into selling the tiny stuff just like everyone else.

They also need to create a classic line that appeals to people more.For what? People want their sound buried in walls these days, and quite frankly, right where it belongs. There is little demand for big stuff cluttering up rooms anymore. Flat panels and in-wall or shallow mount loudspeakers rule. :rockon2:

:p

[Mr. Widget]

You guys are all missing the point.

The stock market is simply a poor metric for the health, well being, and prosperity of a company. Frequently Apple stock will dive after an excellent quarter or a very successful new product launch... shareholders are little more than speculators. In the case of Apple, the shareholders guess that Apple will not be able to pull another rabbit out of the hat so they take profits and sell off their shares driving the price down only to have Apple surprise them with yet another "i" something or other.

The problem with Harman like most of corporate America, is that the business decisions are made based on the influence they will have on "the market" and not on what would be best for the company.

As for what JBL should or should not do, we've speculated on this subject ad nauseum.


Widget

[boputnam]

You guys are all missing the point.

The stock market is simply a poor metric for the health, well being, and prosperity of a company. Not so.

Market valuations are the collective of millions and millions of investors - ideally all knowing the same information (thanks to SEC oversight). Valuations discount future prospects of a company/business plan. The current valuation of HAR comprises things revealed in it's current financials:

- deteriorating balance sheet (non-current liabilities increased 179%, largely due to that $400 million convert they issued).
- weak net-income (interest expense increased 5.8x y/y)
- weak cash-flows (guessing - their 10K is not released yet)

HAR had a +16% increase to top-line but reported -50% eps ($2.35 vs $4.14 y/y), and management continues to remind:


“We experienced another year of strong revenue growth in fiscal 2008, but our focus continues to be on execution and operational excellence to improve the bottom line,” said Dinesh Paliwal, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer. “We have strengthened our executive management team and we’ve taken aggressive actions to improve our cost base and global competitiveness. This includes changes to our manufacturing footprint, procurement, technology portfolio, and talent management. We are not satisfied with our earnings performance, but we are confident the actions we are taking will position Harman International to achieve strong results long-term.”

Their automotive segment now comprises 24% of sales, down from 33%, as auto sales worldwide are struggling with cost-of-living increases we all face. Worse, the earnings reveal they are cutting pricing to drive sales: Segment earnings dropped from 10.9% to 5.1% of the Group. Yikes. That's called "stuffing the channel" and suggests their revenues might have been fluffed by this for 4Q, to "make the Quarter".

Interesting - their Professional segment sales increased from 39% to 41% of Group, with contributions to income of 19.6% (up from 16.3%). That's good to see. Maybe Pro will not be allowed to die at the expense of consumer crap.

[Mr. Widget]

Not so.:bs:

With all due respect, I am afraid you are too close to the subject to have an objective perspective. :p

That said, even a stopped clock is correct twice a day. :D


Widget

[doyall]

... They also need to create a classic line that appeals to people more. ...


JBL to Unveil LS Series Loudspeakers at CEDIA Expo
Loudspeakers have 176ND high-frequency compression driver with 2-inch pure-titanium diaphragm.

http://www.cepro.com/images/uploads/jbl_ls80.jpg JBL LS80 Loudspeaker



Aug
19

By Jason Knott (http://www.cepro.com/community/bio/jknott)
Filed in: News (http://www.cepro.com/cedianews/topic/C5/), Product News (http://www.cepro.com/cedianews/topic/C1/), Speakers (http://www.cepro.com/cedianews/topic/C32/), CEDIA (http://www.cepro.com/cedianews/topic/C297/)
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08.19.2008 — JBL (http://www.cepro.com/mfg/jbl) will be introducing its LS Series of loudspeakers at CEDIA Expo 2008 (http://www.cepro.com/cedianews) (booth 580).

The LS Series includes four models: a compact bookshelf loudspeaker (LS40), two floorstanding tower speakers (LS60, LS80) and a dedicated center channel loudspeaker (LS Center).

LS Series loudspeakers combine compression drivers with dynamic drivers to achieve wide dynamic range, transient response and transparency of compression drivers.

Each loudspeaker has a 176ND high-frequency compression driver with a 2-inch pure-titanium diaphragm. The 176ND driver operates in conjunction with a Bi-Radial horn that is shaped to provide optimum dispersion in the horizontal and vertical planes for a smooth, neutral frequency response both on- and off-axis.

The LS Series 015M ultrahigh-frequency driver is a 3/4-inch ring-radiator design that has a low-mass diaphragm and delivers frequency extension beyond 40kHz.

The 015M is mounted in an Elliptical Oblate Spheroidal (EOS) waveguide to provide accurate imaging and create a stereo or multichannel listening environment.

All LS Series woofers use proprietary PolyPlas polymer-coated-cellulose-fiber cone material for the bass.

The LS80 employs a 3-1/2-way crossover network that allows the woofers to operate in different frequency ranges, a configuration that provides a smoother transition of directivity between all drivers.

LS Series loudspeakers have curved contours and side panels that are tapered from the front to the back.

JBL LS Series loudspeakers will be available in a high-gloss stained wood finish.

MSRP for the LS Series loudspeakers range from $1,998 to $3,998 per pair.

[boputnam]

With all due respect...People always say that when they are about to say: "Go pound sand"...


...I am afraid you are too close to the subject to have an objective perspective. Not so. I don't own HAR, but I do know how markets work. They discount the future, sometimes, brutally.


That said, even a stopped clock is correct twice a day. :DI don't understand this? I guess you are saying even I might be correct, sometime? Uh, not so... :(

[boputnam]

...I don't own HAR, but I do know how markets work. And I can read financials.

These are not pretty.

Comparisons, y/y:

Net sales up +17%, but...
COGS up +28%
SG&A up +11%
Op income down -47%
PTI down -53%

It is bad. My guess is, HAR did not generate free cash flow - or at least in sufficient amounts to meet their capex needs - thus the convert. That is bad and the market is seeing it. Without fCF they must jettison some businesses to generate working capital to stay alive. Desperate times in a tightening economy. This is a consumer products company and consumer spending is toward the downside...

:(

[hjames]

They sure are pretty - are you sure these are new?

If the sound is right, maybe its time to sell off some big boxes and put some of these in our music room ...
I wonder who will be stocking them so we can check them out??

LS 80
http://www.jbl.com/home/products/product_detail.aspx?prod=LS80&Language=ENG&Country=DK&Region=EUROPE&cat=CLA&ser=LS

LS60
http://www.jbl.com/home/products/product_detail.aspx?prod=LS60&Language=ENG&Country=DK&Region=EUROPE&cat=CLA&ser=LS

LS40
http://www.jbl.com/home/products/product_detail.aspx?prod=LS40&Language=ENG&Country=DK&Region=EUROPE&cat=CLA&ser=LS


LS Center
http://www.jbl.com/home/products/product_detail.aspx?prod=LS%20CENTER/230&Language=ENG&Country=DK&Region=EUROPE&cat=CLA&ser=LS

LS Sub (400w 12")
http://www.jbl.com/home/products/product_detail.aspx?prod=LS120P/230&Language=ENG&Country=DK&Region=EUROPE&cat=CLA&ser=LS






JBL to Unveil LS Series Loudspeakers at CEDIA Expo
Loudspeakers have 176ND high-frequency compression driver with 2-inch pure-titanium diaphragm.

http://www.cepro.com/images/uploads/jbl_ls80.jpg JBL LS80 Loudspeaker




JBL LS Series loudspeakers will be available in a high-gloss stained wood finish.

MSRP for the LS Series loudspeakers range from $1,998 to $3,998 per pair.

[Mr. Widget]

I don't understand this? I guess you are saying even I might be correct, sometime? Uh, not so... :(No, not at all... I am saying that sometimes a stock's value may be an indicator of a company's well being. In the case of Harman International, it would appear to be one of those cases...

However my major point was that Harman is not doomed because they are not selling E2s for $6K a pair, but rather due to the fact that they have been run by folks who having been bowing to the pressures of Wall Street. I believe that the long term effect of running almost any company this way will ultimately cause them to fail. One way or another there will be a change in the current business model as this simply isn't sustainable.


Widget

[Russellc]

Don't forget the top 1% pay more in income tax than the bottom 90%.
No they dont. Where do you get your info from? That's the way it should be, but is far from it! The large brunt is shouldered by the middle class dude. The rich use tax shelters and get tax incentives for their projects, and the low income use welfare.

Russellc

[boputnam]

However my major point was that Harman is not doomed because they are not selling E2s for $6K a pair...Certainly not.


...but rather due to the fact that they have been run by folks who having been bowing to the pressures of Wall Street. This I do not know. I don't know who encouraged JBL pursue the business plan they have ended-up with - their shareholders, the board, or "vision" of upper management. But both they and Altec nearly synchronously went headlong into the low-end consumer stuff with gusto, expecting it was a bright future. They somehow never saw it as a novelty-soon-to-be-a-commodity business. Now, there are slim margins there and paltry few companies making good ol' loudspeakers for home use.

I don't know what I would have done in their shoes. They tried to evolve, but for the most part their customers did not evolve with them. My kids and their friends, for instance, care little about real gear. They want something inexpensive, uncomplicated, plug-and-play, and which won't break. They come to my gigs and are wow'd at that sound and that of my home, but they have no interest in it themselves. It's weird, especially compared to how big a deal it all was during the '70's and '80's for most of us... :dont-know

[4313B]

...they have no interest in it themselves. It's weird, especially compared to how big a deal it all was during the '70's and '80's for most of us... :dont-know
I think it's weird too :rotfl:

[Mr. Widget]

It's weird, especially compared to how big a deal it all was during the '70's and '80's for most of us... :dont-knowI am not sure it is weird.

I'd say it is in the realm of fashion and trends... home audio as we know it and love it is absolutely passé. Stamp and coin collecting used to be a big deal... look on eBay today and you can find large collections sold off for a fraction of the original investment.

On the positive side, JBL did have the vision to expand into pro audio and then auto-sound. These areas have done a good job of keeping the company going. And where Paragons and Hartsfields are no longer the symbols of the well heeled, a high end home theater with a JBL Synthesis system is. Somehow JBL has been able to keep the Synthesis brand reasonably untainted by the cheapo theater in the box junk that also has the JBL logo on it.


Widget

[4345]

I think Bo and Widget both make some good points. I feel that JBL being part of a large public corporation makes them more apathetic than anything else. Perhaps the CEO pay is tied to the share price and he might be inclined to pursue a short term hike in the share price for a long term decline in company value. I am not sure, but I doubt it. However, I think it is just apathy throughout any large public corporation. It is simply other peoples money.

For example. I was just in my local guitar center. I was looking at the amps. I did not see any loaded with JBL's. Do they even make an E-120 guitar speaker? I don't think so. Why not? I can't believe this would not be profitable. I think there are many other examples.

[4345]

Isn't that what this website is about. I love talking about the same things over and over again. By the way, did I mention I love talking about the same things over and over again. One more thing, I love talking about the same things over and over again.

[Titanium Dome]

What? Could you repeat that?

[Titanium Dome]

They sure are pretty - are you sure these are new?

If the sound is right, maybe its time to sell off some big boxes and put some of these in our music room ...
I wonder who will be stocking them so we can check them out??



I'm not convinced that dual PolyPlas 8" drivers will do it for you, though the mid and top end should be nice. At approximately $2k each for the LS80, they're probably a good deal relative to the PT800 at $1700 (full retail), but they'd have to sound better. Only listening will prove that.

I've got a feeling the 908Ti is a better driver than an 8" PolyPlas, or even a pair.

In any event, I don't see this as the speaker that turns Harmon's ledgers into a flood of black ink. It should at least silence the folks who chronically lament the lack of "real" wood on the speaker enclosures. That's SO important.

[boputnam]

I was just in my local guitar center...Yikes. I don't go in there unless there's a real shitstorm outside. They got absolutely nuthin' - and by that I mean all Behringer all the time...

But, is that because the buyer isn't there, or has their lack of product trained the buyer to go elsewhere. Perhaps both, but I kept going there even as their offerings dwindled, on the hope that purchases would make a difference. Nope.

Mostly Full Compass (http://www.fullcompass.com/) for me. Email George Koury (mailto:[email protected])- he does me pretty well...

[Ian Mackenzie]

They certainly have business problems based on data in the 1st post and that does not help the share prices.

It would be interesting to attend the shareholders meeting: What is management doing about the problems?

That sort of performance is not sustainable.

If the shares dive further as do profits and visa versa expect the worst.

One could argue they inherited a lot of the issues from Harman's reign toward the end.

Harman's precence held a lot of good will in the share prices of the global empire and that is now loosing steam fast.

I saw all this with my own firm, it has taken five years to turn it around after a complete nut screwed the business..

The current CEO however lost 1 Billion on investments (Banking) in the USA recently.

What happened. He is now gone, bye bye.

Tactically in a lot of the consumer markets JBL appear to be a me too followers. Even in a the auto market where they held dominance at one point heavy competition has eroded sales and margins.

Perhaps they should have distanced the JBL brand with associate branding of allied products so as not to water down the JBL brand postioning.

The brand is out there but does not carry the exclusivity it once held.

Now retailers pick and choice what ranges and products within ranges they want to carry.

Is JBL seen now seen as another mass market brand by the markets with too many ranges?

I think that is the fundermental difference between today and say 8-10 years ago. I mean how many JBL consumer lines are there just in loudspeakers? Who is buying them?

As they say if its not on the floor it won't sell

[Titanium Dome]

Ian

Curiously, I see more JBL owner activity in the online community recently than ever before. an example is this 14-month-old thread at AVS, which at over 3,700 posts and 178,000 views has gone on far longer than I ever expected.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=866797

The most interesting aspect of it is the focus: Venue Series, Studio L Series, Northridge N and E Series, Balboa Series, and occasionally a vintage piece or the Performance Series. I can write about stuff over there that only gets mocked or minimized here.

Another important aspect is that most of these AVS posters are actually buying current JBL products, posting pictures, sharing tips, and getting positive strokes for their consumer level gear, with no second-guessing, criticizing of their choices, or harsh critiques of their rooms and sources.

These are the future upgraders to Performance Series, Array Series, maybe LS Series, perhaps some pro speakers, and more. Once bitten and smitten by the JBL bug, with the right support and encouragement, they will become brand loyal.

In that respect they are more important to Harman and its future than many of the members of LH who continue to recycle old gear and parts.

[scott fitlin]

You guys are all missing the point.



As for what JBL should or should not do, we've speculated on this subject ad nauseum.


WidgetDITTO.

However, GIVE HARMAN some credit. JBL is STILL AROUND, How many of the other original American audio Companies are still here?

:D

[BMWCCA]

GIVE HARMAN some credit. JBL is STILL AROUND, How many of the other original American audio Companies are still here? I understand your point but many are still around——and some aren't. And some are even under the Harman umbrella. Some are far from "original" but all are at least 35-years old. I found this list interesting. I'm sure you all can name many more:

Fisher [1937] http://www.fisherav.com/products.html selling crap with their name on it. Sold to Emerson [1969], Sanyo [1975-]
Scott [1947] http://www.emersonradio.com/ since 1985. 'Nuff said.
McIntosh [1949] http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/ Sold to Clarion [1990-03] Still kickin'
Pilot http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/pilot_fm_stereo_receiver_610.html Probably not since the early '60s.
Phase Linear [1970] (see Carver below)
Carver [1979] http://www.carveraudio.com (http://www.carveraudio.com/) Fan site only; see Sunfire (http://www.sunfire.com)
Sherwood [1953] http://www.sherwoodusa.com/about.html Sort of alive. . .
University (see Altec and Electro-Voice (http://www.electrovoice.com/index.php) [1930])
Soundcraftsmen [1961] (fan site: http://www.soundcraftsmen.com/)
Altec [1936] Altec Pro (http://www.altecpro.com/) Iconic (http://www.iconicspkrs.com/stonehenge.html) Altec Wordwide (http://www.alteclansing.com/)
Marantz [1950?] http://us.marantz.com/
Klipsch [1946] http://www.klipsch.com/
Jensen [1950] http://www.jensenaccessories.com/ see Audiovox (http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=91378&p=irol-irhome)
Crown [1947] http://www.crownaudio.com/ Acquired by Harman in 2000.
Mark Levinson [1972] http://www.marklevinson.com/ Harman since 2000.
Infinity [1968] http://www.infinitysystems.com (http://www.infinitysystems.com/) Harman since ?
Dynaco [1955] Fan site (http://home.indy.net/%7Egregdunn/dynaco/index.html)
Hafler [1972] sold to Rockford in '90s. see Dynaco and http://www.hafler.com (http://www.hafler.com/)
KLH [1957] sold to Singer in 1967, later Kyocera, now http://www.klhaudio.com/
Magnepan [1969] http://www.magnepan.com still kickin'
Polk [1972] acquired in 2006 by Directed Electronics http://www.polkaudio.com/

[Mr. Widget]

The most interesting aspect of it is the focus: Venue Series, Studio L Series, Northridge N and E Series, Balboa Series, and occasionally a vintage piece or the Performance Series. I can write about stuff over there that only gets mocked or minimized here.Everything has it's place. ;)

Seriously though, this is the Lansing Heritage site forum. Other than possibly helping to fund the development of systems like the Project Array, Everest IIs etc. I really don't see much of a connection between some of those systems you listed and Lansing Heritage.

As for the AVS site, I just checked it out by doing a search for JBL Synthesis and saw the same sort of rants we see here... over priced, the best I ever heard, not as good as my Klipsch, :blah: Some people seemed well informed and others not so much. :)

I guess I veered off topic a bit.

Here is another take on this current Harman debacle. Perhaps, with financial difficulties Harman will downsize a bit and get more focused on the basics. It may be a good thing.


Widget

[Titanium Dome]

Everything has it's place. ;)

Seriously though, this is the Lansing Heritage site forum. Other than possibly helping to fund the development of systems like the Project Array, Everest IIs etc. I really don't see much of a connection between some of those systems you listed and Lansing Heritage.


Widget


Our mission is to record the accomplishments, history and legacy of James Bullough Lansing. While his name may not be known to many, the legacy of his work touches millions of people. That legacy is the genesis of the loudspeaker industry. He was instrumental in the development of the some of the first successful loudspeaker products. The quality of his work resulted in the Lansing name being associated with the finest in sound reproduction technology. His name is carried on in the corporate identity of two companies, JBL and Altec Lansing. The purpose of this site is to pay homage to the accomplishments of the man and his namesake companies.

To take a literal reading of this paragraph, then there really shouldn't be discussion of anything that Lansing himself didn't touch and pass down, and what you're really posting about (and most of what that paragraph above is about) is a legacy, not a heritage.

The last sentence of the quote, "The purpose of this site is to pay homage to the accomplishments of the man and his namesake companies." leads me to the conclusion that JBL consumer, JBL Pro, and JBL Automotive and Marine are still namesake companies (or divisions if you insist) that continue to have accomplishments. As such, they still represent the Lansing Heritage, though they cannot represent the Lansing legacy in any way.

[Mr. Widget]

To take a literal reading...You were complaining about getting mocked or minimized when posting about certain things. I was trying to explain why this might happen. I was not proposing we have an argument about what Jim Lansing's legacy actually is. I think we all have a pretty good idea about why this site came into being and the purpose it serves.

You have discovered the perfect venue for discussing the JBL iPod docks and low end Harman product that they choose to brand with the JBL logo and apparently lots of others have too. That's great. Enjoy it. Just don't take it personally when you praise some low end plastic box with round wired voice coiled drivers sourced from god knows where and it meets with little enthusiasm on this site.


Widget

[Chas]

However my major point was that Harman is not doomed because they are not selling E2s for $6K a pair, but rather due to the fact that they have been run by folks who having been bowing to the pressures of Wall Street. I believe that the long term effect of running almost any company this way will ultimately cause them to fail. One way or another there will be a change in the current business model as this simply isn't sustainable.


Widget

Yup, so what's new? I have heard it, myself - over and over again. Corporate short-term strategies only allowed.....nobody who is employed at the higher management levels will last two minutes if they offer a long term vision and a plan.

The board of directors (theoretically representing the shareholders) have no sympathy for this kind of thinking.:(

[Titanium Dome]

You were complaining about getting mocked or minimized when posting about certain things.


Widget

Okay, I didn't realize it was a nice pat on the head. Thanks so much.

I don't care about "little enthusiasm." I don't care about a lack of enthusiasm. That's fine, and people can ignore the post. I am irritated by arrogance and condescension.

Some of us purposely stay out of threads that veer into areas of little interest to us. You rarely see me posting in highly technical discussions or detailed discussions about most DIY activities. I even try to stay away from the maudlin exhibitions of horn-itis and just let those guys run with it though there are ample opportunities for sarcasm and mockery.

If the topic is clear and someone doesn't want to talk about "some low end plastic box with round wired voice coiled drivers sourced from god knows where" then don't talk about it. It's OK by me if they stay out of the thread. How hard is that?

The long-term survival of any consumer products company depends on selling enough product to cover costs and satisfy shareholders. Most of that money is made or lost on the low end.

[SEAWOLF97]

I've always seen JBL as the Buick of the speaker world,,,above the standard Chevy and Ford, but not at the Cadillac price level....good quality and a long heritage, but not so relevant anymore and falling on hard times....really the only GM vehs that are selling are the low end and the high end,,,the middle is suffering, although the quality and technology is far better than their glory years...maybe dome is right and the new JBL products are far superior, dunno, dont care to find out. (dont want the low end, cant afford the high end)

the term sufficing seems to fit here as it does in the PC world...when what you have does the job well, what is the stimulus to upgrade to a perceived lower build quality at a high price ?? just to upgrade ??
Intel did a survey and found that a P4 3ghz is sufficient far almost all home and office needs. Knowing this kinda put a damper on new sales...So they asked their partner MS to write more CPU intensive apps, so that the new software would drive hardware sales. What BS.


I understand your point but many are still around——and some aren't. And some are even under the Harman umbrella. Some are far from "original" but all are at least 35-years old. I found this list interesting. I'm sure you all can name many more

Ohm is still in business in the original building, same president/ownership since 72 and fulfilling their little niche.


Everything has it's place. ;)

Seriously though, this is the Lansing Heritage site forum. Other than possibly helping to fund the development of systems like the Project Array, Everest IIs etc. I really don't see much of a connection between some of those systems you listed and Lansing Heritage.
Widget

agree

[Mr. Widget]

Okay, I didn't realize it was a nice pat on the head. Thanks so much.You're quite welcome.


Widget

[audio5]

JBL folks,

It is a capitalism world that we all live in and corporations got bought and sold all the time. To quote another forum member that I talked to "Not every single JBL speaker is worth restoration" and I think that should conclude it.

As a consumer and more importantly a JBL loyal fan I think JBL should stop churning out inferior quality product to sustain the reputation for the genious who founded the company (yeah right in my dreams) But then again I do not invest much in the company except two pairs of JBL HP 420 (bought used) and JBL HLS 610 (purchased new) so I should not expect much right:)

Well, the CEO and the board of directors as businessmen would like to see their multi million dollar investments JBL appreciate and nothing could boost the bottom line better than low cost products and expansive market share. So they have to do what they have to do to get the most return for their investment. You bet, cutting corners and making mass market quality (please read no longer JBL quality) products are results of intensive cost reduction to boost ROI.

I think both the admin and Mr. T come from positive angles and because of that any misunderstanding could be avoided easily if we all refrain from letting our egos run the course.

You see, it's easy to preach but not easy to practice. I am selling all my current JBL speakers to fund for another pair of Dynaudio bookshelf or a pair of JBL Century Series L100..uh huh:applaud:

Keep my fingers crossed so that I don't run into "vintage JBL people":banghead: on Ebay and Craiglist but instead a genuine JBL fan who simply does not have room to accommodate his/her wonderful L100 and pass on a piece of history to someone who truly appreciate the signature sound of JBL.

And that is me of course:) So sell to me your minty JBL L100 for $100:) Anyone here in Los Angeles area got one or two extra pairs:applaud:

Best regards

[audio5]

IMO, with the exception of a few JBL pairs made in the 60s and in the 70s, most of JBL products in the 80s, 90s, and recently have not consistently sustained the quality of their monitor/bookshelf 1960,1970 predecessors.

I would buy a pair of JBL L100 as a souvenir for myself but if you ask me to continue endorsing/buying JBL products from now I would have some hesitation:)